mommaduck Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 As everyone else stated....RUN, don't walk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 First of all, this is NOT unheard of. I do not think it is right in any way, shape or form, but I have heard of this type of thing in our area with a few select "churches". In one, the elders/deacons would meet with each family to "review" their 1040 form to let them know how much they should give for the year. In another, a family was told how much they needed to give each week/month and if they couldn't afford that, they should look elsewhere for a church. I am in a HUGE Bible Belt area. That said, I would NOT attend this church. I would find another local church where the BIBLE is taught. While I totally agree with tithing, etc. I feel it is a personal matter between the husband and wife and the Lord. In our church the pastor has NO access to personal financial records (as in who gives how much). The treasurer has a written record of those that give with an envelope or with a check for tax purposes but NO ONE else sees this information. I think it is wonderful that you and your husband have decided to return to church and I pray that you can find a good Bible teaching supportive church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachaheart Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I don't know if this is right, but my family and I have recently returned to church after several years away. We attended this church for several years in the late 90's through 2001 or 2002. At that time we did try to tithe 10% of our income. Upon returning to the church a couple of months ago, our pastor sat down with us to discuss our reinstatement as members. Much to my surprise he started to discuss payment of tithes between 2001 or 2002 through last month that we missed paying because we had not attended. I was startled and did not know what to say. I do not want to be told we can not attend and I had been taught as a child not to question an authority figure, but now I wish I did. After discussing our current and past finances with the pastor and him allowing us to pray about it for 48 hours, we agreed to tithe 10% of our current income and add an additional monthly $363.27 as a "back payment" for 60 months! Should have I agreed to do this and has anyone else heard of this, or been put on a church payment plan like this? You absolutely should not have even considered this. There is no biblical basis for a required tithe, though there is nothing wrong with tithing if a believer chooses to do so. The biblical requirement is to give cheerfully and even sacrificially according to one's conscience. No one in church leadership has the right to require tithing or the giving of any percentage of a person's income. A pastor certainly does not have the biblical authority to require anyone to make "back payments" under any circumstances. If that is a non-negotiable condition of reinstating your membership, in my opinion, you need to find a new church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Ok, I'm assuming you're actually serious. I don't know how to ask this, but is this like... well.... is it a particular denomination. I've heard of ONE denomination that does this... (asks to see what you're making) I'd be talking to the elders if it's a church like... Baptist, Pres, Methodist.... any church.... that isn't the "one" that I've heard about that this is the norm. I can't imagine that the pastor would know what you give. How about for those who give cash?? No way!! No how... if it's part of the denominations policy, I'd be switching! If it's a "pastor's rule", I'd be talking to the Elders/Deacons/Governing Board. I consider it very improper!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 That's insane. No freakin' way. Just, no way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwickimom Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I'm sorry, but if this is true....this is PURE greed on the pastors part, and if they belong to a "group" or organization or something, greed on them too. Many a churches thrive without mandatory tithing of the members. I would love to call up Dave Ramsey and get his views on this :D It is appaling to me that any church would look at peoples income forms! What are they the IRS???? GEEZE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) After discussing our current and past finances with the pastor and him allowing us to pray about it for 48 hours, we agreed to tithe 10% of our current income and add an additional monthly $363.27 as a "back payment" for 60 months! Do NOT sign anything. The only people outside of you and your dh that need information about your finances are your banker and the IRS. IF this man has copies of your SSNs or 1040s get them back. If you have to sue to do it, then do so. It isn't any of his business. He has NO RIGHT to that information. None whatsoever! Never ever ever give your financial information to anyone not in the business of finance or your attorney. Not only is this pastor seriously overstepping his authority you now have to worry about identity theft if he has any kind of paperwork with your financial information. How is this information secured? Is it stored in a filing cabinet that anyone in the church office can access? Is it on a disk or hard drive that can be hacked? Get over your not questioning your authority figures. The only authority your pastor/priest/minister has over you should be totally in relation to your spirituality. And that could be questionable, because truly God is the ultimate authority. Find another church, another denomination if you have to. Report this man to any group or authority that may govern him. Edited July 10, 2010 by Parrothead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Good for you for returning to church! I'm so sorry that happened. I agree with all the PPs - find a new church. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I've never heard of anything like this. Is this part of your denomination's teaching? If so, are you convinced that your denomination is the only way to do? What does your dh think? It is not normal practice in any Christian denominations that I'm aware of, but perhaps it is in a sect I've not heard about. You have to decide what you believe. I personally see no mandate in Scripture for that nor has the historical church required back-payments as if you were in debt to the church for your spiritual mortgage or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennislady29 Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 :iagree: It seems wrong for a pastor to bring this up as a condition of reinstatement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooblink Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 This reminds me of my first experience with church. Several months after I'd been "confirmed" at age 16 in a Lutheran church, my mom received a letter indicating that I'd been removed from the rolls because I wasn't contributing money. At a time in my life where what I really needed was some discipling, I kinda got turned off to the whole idea of organized religion. I've since some back around to Christ and believe in giving generously to God, but still have a problem with the business of religion. Meh, find a church that puts God and people before $$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewellsmommy Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I believe in tithing but I also believe that it is between the person and God. I have never heard of this sort of thing. There is absolutely no scriptural reference to the concept of "back tithing." I would send a letter or make a phone call (or have dh do it) explaining why you will be finding a new church so that this pastor knows that he is the reason that you have decided not to return. Perhaps that will encourage him to take a look at this practice and reflect on it in the light of God's standards. Because this "back tithing" is not a God thing. It is this pastor's poor interpretation or downright greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubulibee Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) I just read the OP to my husband pastor, and he couldn't believe it either. And we come from a denomination that does require tithing from its leaders--but we do not check tax returns or anything. Only the person knows if it is an honest tithe or not. And we also separate tithe--goes to the denomination, and then is disseminated among the various entities of the world church--from offering, which stays in the local church. We personally believe (for our family), even though we are in debt, and are on a payment plan to get out of said debt, that we should give our tithe and offerings on our gross income, before all the bills are paid. We don't want to give God the leftovers. And you know, HE. ALWAYS. PROVIDES. There is always enough. I have heard of people returning to the church after having been out for a while, and they will pay "back" tithe. But that is usually only from people who are wealthy, and is ONLY of their own volition. No church/pastor should require you to pay back tithe for when you were not IN the church! Like others have said, it's wonderful you are returning to church. But you should definitely pray about which church you should return to. I don't think it should be this one! Edited July 10, 2010 by jubulibee typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 This is the very thing that caused my parents to quit going to church when I was a baby. They have never been back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I agree. This is bizarre and horrible, and totally non-pastoral. The reverse. Run away. Don't give him a cent. Find a different pastor, and report it to any denominational board. I'm so sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 that if you can not afford to tithe 10% at this church, you need to find a church you can tithe 10% at! I am confused. 10% is 10%, so how would a different church change the amount you were to give? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Ninja Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I am so glad you and your dh have decided to go to church. I am very grieved at the inappropriate demand/request this pastor has set upon you. There is no way - not one, tiny way - that his prerequisite for returning to church is appropriate or acceptable or Biblical. What he has required is wrong, and I apologize that he has done this to you. You don't own him or this church one cent. Giving and tithing is between the individual/couple and God. Period. God doesn't require payment for loving you and guiding you and saving you. A pastor shouldn't require payment for attending church or for becoming a member, and he certainly has no mandate or authority to ask you to pay 'back dues' for years you were not attending church. You need to find a church that welcomes you as people, and doesn't look at you as a source of income. This pastor's priorities are wrong. Based on the little information you provided, this pastor sounds terribly controlling. I worry about what other unscriptural demands he may place on church members. Please, reconsider your decision. Visit some other churches. Find one that welcomes you, where you can be comfortable and taught and part of a Christian community. Then, you can make a decision to freely give and/or tithe as God leads you instead of essentially being handed a bill to be a part of this particular church. Please, don't fall for this. As others have said, let the the pastor know that his request is completely inappropriate, and you will attend church elsewhere. There is nothing in the Bible to support his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) I'm almost more shocked that you agreed to this after the pastor "allowed" you to pray about it than I am that it was required in the first place. Please forget what you were taught about never questioning authority. Edited July 10, 2010 by WordGirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elise1mds Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Oh. My. WORD. I vote with everyone else that there is NO way I would be agreeing to that condition. What a horrid thing to even ask! I hope you're able to find somewhere else where you fit in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 A homeschooler not questioning authority? Seems unlikely to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cindie2dds Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 :svengo: I am 100% in support of tithing, but I am totally appalled at this! Seriously, jaw-droppingly appalled. I understand the point of a pastor trying to have members take tithing seriously, but this is WAY beyond my comfort level. I am so sorry. There are many ways in which people interpret Biblical passages on tithing, but this one truly leaves me scratching my head and praying for this church. I couldn't have said it better! Back payment.... RUN!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 The only person at your church who should know how much you give is the treasurer, and that's only if you give by check. I don't think a pastor should know how much individual members are giving. I would not return to this church. :iagree:Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 It was wrong of your pastor to ask you to make up your tithing that you missed. Go find another church and tithe what you are comfortable tithing and what you can AFFORD. If you can only afford 1%, then tithe 1%. :iagree:Yep, the amount is between you and God, not HUMAN, and a pastor is HUMAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) I'm almost more shocked that you agreed to this after the pastor "allowed" you to pray about it than I am that it was required in the first place. Please forget what you were taught about never questioning authority. Well, apparently this man is a con artist. They're sneaky. I can see how it would happen, and it's mortifying for the conned. How about this for the pastor and / or whatever governing body this church has: Look, apparently the Holy Spirit didn't get your memo about only having 48 hours for us to pray about it. Heck, maybe the Holy Spirit happened to be otherwise engaged during that 48 hours. Busy, busy, that Holy Spirit. Anyhoo, we've now discerned through continued prayer and consultation with the scriptures that the Lord does not require back-payment from us, and so we will not be tithing that amount, nor the 10%, and we shall be taking our family elsewhere for worship. And then get a lawyer if you've signed anything, and if they have any of your financial information in the office, get it back. Wow. This is just unbelievable. When I was a very young adult, I was conned out of $40 I couldn't really afford to lose, and I was so ashamed! It's very easy to get caught in the web of these swindlers. I'm sorry. Edited July 10, 2010 by Nicole M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 ...RUN! Run as far and fast as you can to a church that does not coerce its members into paying membership fees. A church is not a club that collects dues from its members. Tithes and offerings should not be billed to the unsuspecting, but should be graciously received from members who give them willingly and cheerfully. :iagree: A church is just that a church. Not a club. Tithes and offerings are NOT dues. You give what you feel led to give. Pay cash if you don't want anyone to know how much you give. That said, if you pledge a certain amount, you should pay it. If circumstances change, you should let the treasurer know so it is not considered for the budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Food4Thought Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I didn't respond at first, but I see now that this wasn't some kind of forum joke, so I'll be another voice screaming RUN! My husband is a pastor, as is my FIL, and there is no way I could see this type of treatment happening. Besides, it's not Biblical. If the Israelites didn't store up their 10% to take care of the Levites that year, they weren't required to pay 20% the next year. It makes no sense! If you choose to stay at this church for whatever reason, 10% is it. That's all God asked for, and under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, it's not required. Jesus paid our sin tax for us. It's a gift offering now, not a requirement of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I am confused. 10% is 10%, so how would a different church change the amount you were to give? I often hear from Catholic priests that tithing includes time and talent as well as treasure. Say, for instance, if Father had to pay for professional presentation for the class he is giving that would cost a $50-100 each week for the 6 week class. I gave my time and talent to him to prepare the presentation which saved the church that $300-600. That right there is quite a bit of my 10%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I often hear from Catholic priests that tithing includes time and talent as well as treasure. Say, for instance, if Father had to pay for professional presentation for the class he is giving that would cost a $50-100 each week for the 6 week class. I gave my time and talent to him to prepare the presentation which saved the church that $300-600. That right there is quite a bit of my 10%. Right, but the way I understood it from the OP is that the line was a way of bullying the congregation into paying it. Since 10% is 10%, they can't really use that as an excuse to either not pay or leave, since any church would require 10%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I would add that not all of a tithe/offering has to be given directly to the church you are a member of..... We give a portion of our tithe/offering to our church home. Another portion is given to a fund for direct help for people in our community. Another portion to a specific Christian charity we care about. We reserve a certain portion each month for special needs. It is all a gift to God, so it is a part of our tithe/offering. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say to give 10% to "Crescent Street Lutheran Church" (or any other specific church). I'll laugh if that's the name of a church since I just made it up as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) Carol, I agree with the others that what this pastor is doing is wrong. Part of the reason you should run and find another church is that if they are doing this now when you first come, it may very well be the tip of the iceberg on what other requirements they may put on you. Edited July 10, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieJ Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 This is wrong all the way around. Tithing is not a bill. Who knows but that you could have been tithing to another Church during the years that you were not attending. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. Mathew 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Any churches I have attended (my dh's husband pastored one, LEAVE! Your dh has a husband? :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Right, but the way I understood it from the OP is that the line was a way of bullying the congregation into paying it. Since 10% is 10%, they can't really use that as an excuse to either not pay or leave, since any church would require 10%. Not every church requires 10%, and certainly not 10% cash/check. So really it is a question of 10% of what? This church is requiring 10% in monetary funds. If they want to stay members they will most likely have to pay. I was pointing out that other churches could accept 10% divided up into things other than monetary funds. And there is still the option of actively seeking a denomination that does not require 10% of anything. As a bullying tactic it will only work if the family desperately wants to stay with this particular church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3littlekeets Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Yikes. I do hope you haven't signed anything. And, in IL, I think you have 3 days to rescind any contract, anyway. RUN AWAY FAST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 This has to be a joke. He's clearly a freak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphabetika Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 RUN FAST!!!!!!!! That is wrong on so many levels!! :iagree::iagree::iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Not every church requires 10%, and certainly not 10% cash/check. So really it is a question of 10% of what? This church is requiring 10% in monetary funds. If they want to stay members they will most likely have to pay. I was pointing out that other churches could accept 10% divided up into things other than monetary funds. And there is still the option of actively seeking a denomination that does not require 10% of anything. As a bullying tactic it will only work if the family desperately wants to stay with this particular church. Right, I hear you. But the way it sounded from the OP, it seems like the whole congregation is buying into this line. So as a bullying tactic, it will work if the congregation doesn't know that there are other ways to give. And, yes, you're right to point that out. Gads, the more I think about this, the more unsettling it is. I could not have made up something this weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3littlekeets Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) This has to be a joke. My sister and her husband live in Utah. They have not been a member of a certain church for several years (actually -- never since my sis is Catholic and since she married her DH they've been going to the Catholic church), though her DH's family is still very active. Once a year, the bishop of the church brings by a tithe bill, and my sister tells them where to stick it. Each year the bill grows, and each year my sister and her DH tells them where to put the bill. You'd think after 9 or 10 years, they'd learn, but according to this church, they are seriously in debt :D. I don't know if all of the individual churches in this denomination work that way, but their particular one does. Edited July 10, 2010 by 3littlekeets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamato3 all-boy boys Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Well I am almost feeling embarassed from asking the question, as I can clearly see that this is NOT something others have experienced. Carol, Don't feel embarrassed --this can be a good place to get encouragement, confirmation and advice! Hopefully, it is reassuring to know that the event you experienced is not common and (frankly) not Biblical. There are plenty of wonderful, God-honoring, Bible-believing churches in Illinois that would welcome you and your family back into a community of believers with open arms. God's best to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 What's the pastor going to do if you don't pay it--send you to collections? You don't legally owe the church anything. Not only would I NOT agree to something so clearly unbiblical and ridiculous, I'd make a phone call to the DA to ask about such practices, the legality of them. If this "pastor" is a con artist, he needs to be exposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJsMom Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Carol,Don't feel embarrassed --this can be a good place to get encouragement, confirmation and advice! Hopefully, it is reassuring to know that the event you experienced is not common and (frankly) not Biblical. There are plenty of wonderful, God-honoring, Bible-believing churches in Illinois that would welcome you and your family back into a community of believers with open arms. God's best to you. :iagree: That man was someone you trusted and looked to for spiritual leadership. I can't imagine how you must have felt sitting in his office while he ran with this line of hooey. He is the one who should be embarassed, not you. Please don't let this man's manipulation of scripture push you out of fellowship. Praying for your peace in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 What's the pastor going to do if you don't pay it--send you to collections? You don't legally owe the church anything. Not only would I NOT agree to something so clearly unbiblical and ridiculous, I'd make a phone call to the DA to ask about such practices, the legality of them. If this "pastor" is a con artist, he needs to be exposed. :iagree:I came back to post that maybe you should call the state' Attorney General's office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 After discussing our current and past finances with the pastor and him allowing us to pray about it for 48 hours, Should have I agreed to do this and has anyone else heard of this, or been put on a church payment plan like this? Let me get this straight - he asked you to pray about it, you did, you must have been convicted to do this thing and now you wonder if he was wrong in the asking? Yes, I think it's weird. But I think it's even stranger for an adult to agree to pray about it, agree to it, then come back saying, wow, he was really wrong and I probably shouldn't have agreed to it. There's more to this or it's trolling. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaissezFaire Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Oh HECK no! Tithing is not a command but rather a decision to give control to God. This must be done of YOUR own free will and not forced on you. Either way , the pastor is a scheister trying to take money from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 (edited) I would report it to the governing body for the church and find a different church. I would NOT pay that. Do NOT sign anything Edited July 10, 2010 by Sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 I would RUN - not walk away from this church. This is WRONG!!!!!!! I have been attending a church for over 2 years. Not once - NOT ONCE have I been asked to tithe or account for my income. I am welcome there anytime with or without money. With or without good clothes. With or without anything material. I am welcome because it is the house of the Lord. Please find yourself a church that cares about YOU, not your money! :iagree::iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Sherry Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Are you SERIOUS? Tithing is between you and God and a pastor has no right to demand it from you. It is not even a "law" or "commandment" from God so their is no way a human being can make you pay to attend church. If thats how that church is run he needs to be reported to someone as he is a SCAM ARTIST. I know that you will hear it preached in churches that you are to tithe, however, you will be hard pressed to find that supported in the New Testament because it is not there, because it went away when we came into the New Testament. However, you are to give. I do believe that churches preach tithing and believe in it because it is "in their interest" to do so. Not only are you not commanded to tithe, you are certainly not required to pay back tithes. You are being scammed. It's shameful and you should be getting out of there. Did your husband go along with this scam too ? It's hard to believe what adults will put up with from church leaders. READ YOUR BIBLE and FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF IF SOMETHING YOU ARE BEING REQUIRED TO DO IS SCRIPTURAL. KEEP IN MIND WE ARE UNDER THE NEW TESTATMENT NOW BECAUSE THIS PASTOR WILL TRY TO MAKE YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE REQUIRED TO KEEP THE OLD TESTAMENT LAWS. THAT'S ALL HE HAS TO GO ON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12Stars Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 :auto: Run like you mean it. Your children are going to see this uneasiness in you and question the sincerity and honesty of this pastor and maybe even their faith. This is a total abuse of power. Shame on him for running his church this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Can I have this pastor's email? I got a few choice words for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweetpeach Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Shock and Awe. I'm sorry you've been put in this awful position. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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