Public school teaches children how to be "citizens" (apparently)

[Splungeman]

One of my cousins is an education major working on her master's degree. One of her big issues is arguing against unregulated homeschooling. I got into a discussion with her about this on a Facebook chat. She had a lot of the usual issues: Concerns that these children are not being exposed to other cultures, concerns that they are receiving more religious education than true education, blah, blah, blah. But I must say, the thing I had the biggest problem with was her assertion that public school teaches children how to be citizens, and that a homeschool environment doesn't necessarily teach children how to be citizens.

 

This blows my mind just a bit. What does that mean, exactly? I never thought any training was required on "how to be a citizen". I mean, we're born in this country we are citizens of this country aren't we? No matter how narrow-minded or uneducated a person may be, if they were born in this country they are citizens, right? You don't need training to exist.

 

What aspect of citizenship does public school teach, I wonder? How to stand in line and obey government certified authority figures?

 

I think a child learns more about the real world and its rules by being out in the real world. I think the rules of the real world are far more valuable than those learned within the walls of a public school.

 

I don't know what it is that bothers me so much about the idea of public school teaching children to be "citizens". Does that bother anyone else?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Actually public school was started so that we could have a well-educated citizenry who could make informed decisions in voting and other civic duties. So there is an aspect to education which does benefit us as citizens and benefits the country. But I would postulate that I am creating better educated citizens in my home school than many public schools create. In fact, I am a bit frighted for our country (the USA in my case) because so many of our citizens seem to be coming out of schools under educated.

[Sonshine]

I wonder if she has been trained to consider children the property of the state to be trained to obey the government rather than think for themselves. Some of the past leaders in public education in the U.S. and in Germany influenced American education in that direction.

[sunshine]

There are some things that every citizen should know. Like the Pledge of Allegiance, the symbols of democracy, the symbols of our country, History of the founding of the country. Maybe she means those sort of things. How to serve in the community, chances at volunteerism. It sounds like she is just ignorant of homeschooling and doesn't know that we use real curriculum. Maybe she thinks we just teach adding and subtracting and the Bible all day. Ask her what she thinks Citizenship means and what is it she thinks is necessary information.

[Harriet Vane]

The only direct citizenship applications in the public school I think of are the Constitution test and student government involvement. Participation in Student Council or similar organizations cannot really count towards teaching the broader population citizenship because those that join Student Council are just a small minority of a school's population.

 

I would say that this country's dismal voter turnout is an indication that citizenship is not being taught effectively in the public schools.

 

I also do not see why citizenship (or any other subject) can only be taught in one specific venue.

 

Saying that all public schools teach this or that no home schools do is painting with a broad brush. My anecdotal, personal experience with homeschoolers over the last eight years has been that they are uber-responsible people who are passionate about participation in voting and in educating citizenship.

 

Another good example I think of is the annual Illinois Legislative Day sponsored by CHEC. There is a sizable turn-out for this event. I took my kids last year to participate in this down in Springfield. My kids wrote letters to our senator and representative, which we gave to them personally along with home baked cherry pies. My kids loved seeing the government buildings and talking to our legislators. It was a truly positive experience that we look forward to doing again next year.

[JoyfulMama]

Public schools teach how to be a citizen.... Well, I would think that would mean the public school would then teach about the founding of our country, ways to honor and respect that history by way of the National Anthem, the Pledge of Allegiance, the format of our government (and other governments), how laws are enacted, how individuals are elected, and how to be an informed voter.

Much of the basics can be learned in elementary school. And I don't think that the public school is the only place that we can teach these things. I also think that the school isn't necessarily the best place to teach respect (I personally think they lack heavily in this). However I would argue that I don't think most public high school graduates are really the best informed voters.

As far as multiculturalism, I know my kids are exposed to more cultures than I ever was. I was in 3rd grade before I ever heard the word Jewish, and had only met one family at that point who was not Caucasian. The world had not yet been presented to me at school in the form of a globe or a world map, although I did know that it was round. Until I was in 5th grade, all focus was on the United States. My parents were the ones who bought a globe to show us places mentioned in the news, and talked about family history, and church history, which took us outside the United States.

And one of my best friends in high school graduated believing that Communism was the best form of government... :lol: Maybe he missed a class?

[FO4UR]

The basis of that idea bothers me a LOT!

 

*If* the ps system actually taught history and government in a thorough, yet unbiased manor, my opinion would be different.

 

I don't want my dc learning to be enamored with political leaders. I want them to think.

[Rhonda in TX]

Hasn't there been a study that shows that homeschoolers are more involved in their community than the general public? If that isn't citizenship, what is?

 

Here's a link to a book about that study.

[Chris in VA]

I think what your cousin means is "good" citizenship. It's another way of saying socialization--how to take turns, be kind, work as a team, see the world as a community and take care of it, etc. Think back to elementary school--the Good Citizen award was for a kid who picked up the trash someone else left by the can, waited patiently and kindly for others, maybe treated his classmates with kindness, did chores for the teacher, that sort of thing. These values (working as a group, looking out for others, etc.) at the elementary level are seen as basic skills that translate into caring about our country (seeing it as a whole), being a "good neighbor," being tolerant and so forth. That translates into behaviors like informed voting, keeping your property clean and neat--I can't think of others, but maybe you see where I am.

Perhaps she means it's hard to teach these things that are usually taught in a group setting, because there's "no" group setting at home. It's a narrow view, and an erroneous one.

[Mom-ninja.]

Am I the only one who thought of the movie "Storm Ship Troopers" when reading the title of the thread? "Do you have what it takes to be a Citizen?" :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I'm supposed to teach my kids the Pledge of Allegiance? Oops. Haven't gotten to the that just yet....:leaving:

[EKS]

One of my cousins is an education major working on her master's degree. One of her big issues is arguing against unregulated homeschooling. I got into a discussion with her about this on a Facebook chat. She had a lot of the usual issues: Concerns that these children are not being exposed to other cultures, concerns that they are receiving more religious education than true education, blah, blah, blah. But I must say, the thing I had the biggest problem with was her assertion that public school teaches children how to be citizens, and that a homeschool environment doesn't necessarily teach children how to be citizens.

 

This blows my mind just a bit. What does that mean, exactly? I never thought any training was required on "how to be a citizen". I mean, we're born in this country we are citizens of this country aren't we? No matter how narrow-minded or uneducated a person may be, if they were born in this country they are citizens, right? You don't need training to exist.

 

What aspect of citizenship does public school teach, I wonder? How to stand in line and obey government certified authority figures?

 

I think a child learns more about the real world and its rules by being out in the real world. I think the rules of the real world are far more valuable than those learned within the walls of a public school.

 

I don't know what it is that bothers me so much about the idea of public school teaching children to be "citizens". Does that bother anyone else?

 

Actually, education at public expense in the United States started specifically for this purpose. One could say that it is the entire point of public education. But I don't think the founding fathers of public education were thinking that children needed specific lessons in citizenship; they wanted to create an educated citizenry who could make "wise" decisions when voting. People charged with governing themselves needed to be educated, they reasoned. Of course, this idea evolved into ensuring nationalism in the young, particularly the children of immigrants. And then it evolved further into a tool for the budding industrial society to create a mass of people ready for mind-numbing factory work. But the original goal was to produce an educated citizenry.

Edited February 16, 2010 by EKS

[mirth]

What aspect of citizenship does public school teach, I wonder?

 

Well the WH argues that fat children threaten the safety of the citizenry in the sense that they likely become fat adults, who are too fat to serve. "The White House and its allies are also making the case that the obesity epidemic is affects national security; obesity is now one of the most common disqualifiers for military service." There are other reasons such as healthcare cost, so therefore, Michelle Obama has spearheaded and inserted the Let's Move campaign, to eliminate childhood obesity over a generation (what is that, 17 years, 40 years?) in schools as well as ped offices, sidewalks. I think every child in school, not just the US citizen minors, will be re-educated as to their duty in achieving non-obesity.

Edited February 16, 2010 by mirth

[lionfamily1999]

But I must say, the thing I had the biggest problem with was her assertion that public school teaches children how to be citizens, and that a homeschool environment doesn't necessarily teach children how to be citizens.

I would say that statement could be applied to any educational entity. Ime, not many ps kids are taught to be good citizens and how many polls have exposed the ignorance of hs students as to the branches of government, or graduates that don't know the difference between the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. For pity's sake, NC is talking about dropping US History up to 1877....... without knowing the history of our country, how are they to be educated citizens?!?

[BigMamaBird]

In our family, I make a big deal about taking my children to vote. We visit the firehouse and police stations and talk about their role in our lives and our responsibility to them. We teach them to be polite to others and proper manners in public, something that a great many kids these days DON'T learn. They're still young, yet, but we plan on being involved with the many community volunteer opportunities available in our area. We practice good stewardship of our environment.

 

I see all of that as learning how to be good citizens. Though perhaps what she means is blind obedience and devotion to a particular political party, I don't know.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Actually public school was started so that we could have a well-educated citizenry who could make informed decisions in voting and other civic duties.

 

I had believed this until I took Educational Policy Studies as an Education major in college. We read the original writings of the early proponents of public education, like Mann and Dewey. Their purpose was to assimilate immigrants into American society (to lose the undesirable aspects of their previous culture) and to create a workforce for the industrial machine. There was still in favor of an oligarchy of elite who should make decisions for the stupid masses.

[Impish]

I believe that a court case in the states had as one of the judges reasonings, that school teaches the children to be good citizens. California I believe.

[Annie]

I would be very interested to hear how she defines good citizenship.

[Denise in Florida]

"What aspect of citizenship does public school teach, I wonder? How to stand in line and obey government certified authority figures?"

 

Sounds about right.

 

I also agree with the PP who mentioned the Good Citizenship awards as far as working well in a group. The ability to fill your place in society (cog in the wheel) is an unspoken goal of public education.

 

While I want my children to have good manners, respect and help others, show kindness, etc. I also want them to retain the ability to think for themselves, respect their own instincts and resist peer pressure. :glare:

[Aoife]

I think the prospect of PS teaching kids to be citizens a bit more unsettling and scary IMHO. The majority of PS kids are way to conscious of their outwards appearance, to scared to be anything close to what they really are and learn to put down other people to make themselves better. The kids that don't fit into those guidelines are usually the ones bullied except for the very small portion of those kids who are able to escape the radar.

 

As for history exposure I was only in PS till grade 8 and I remember very little exposure to anything but US history. I certainly have no recollection of ever being taught about other cultures.

[hornblower]

Well, first of all, I think ps teaches them more how to be a consumer than to be a citizen. :glare:

 

Hwvr, there are very serious issues to be considered here. Public education does have at least some unifying effect in terms of transmitting a set of rules/stories/paradigms.

 

I think Europe and attitudes about homeschooling there are interesting to look at because their fears are quite a bit different than what I think is the case in North America. Critics here talk about socialization and education standards. Critics in Europe have a completely different subtext that they're fretting about.

 

I know many Americans get terribly upset about hs rules in Europe, but I think what's missing from the discussion - because it is NOT being widely discussed in Europe, but is rather simmering on the back burners as nobody wants to or perhaps nobody knows how to deal with the issue - is the consideration of largely fragmented societies, and how do countries function when society is deeply fragmented. America has tried to push the melting pot idea & surely tries hard to instill a 'legend of America', a vision of what America is, in every citizen, whether born here or naturalized. It is part of your culture to toot your own horn & I think it's part of what has united you - the dreams, aspirations of a new nation.

 

Canada has gone a different way.. multiculturalism has led to a reasonable comfort with a large variety of ideas and cultural expression. Our one uniting idea seems to be the rule of law & a vague commitment to being nice and polite.

 

Europe meanwhile has not been an immigrant receiving nation for many generations. For a long time public school education was primarily about trying to blur class distinctions. But Europe is now being heavily populated by peoples with very different ideas about nationhoood, citizenship, rule of law, and liberty.

 

How should a nation respond if they are increasingly pressured by cultural norms which are different from the tradition? The idea that public school will expose children to broader ideas, to notions of allegiance to the entire country (& not just to their faith or country of origin), that it will unite the population in some tangible way a generation later - well, I don't know that it actually works but I think in some cases it's the only hope we have of maintaining western liberal democracy & some level of moderation in our public discourse.

 

I doubt that anyone here is grooming their kids for holy war. But I think that there ARE people who are doing just that - in segregated schools, in homeschools, in communities locked away from the 'mainstream'. I have done my sharing of dissing the 'mainstream' but when I see the radicalism that occurs when some groups distance themselves too far from the mainstream, I grow concerned too.

 

(btw, a recent edition of The Economist had an article on homeschooling in Europe http://www.economist.com/world/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15469407&source=hptextfeature which tantalizingly asked the question "Why some countries welcome children being taught at home and others don’t". Unfortunately it didn't actually answer the question; I think it's because nobody wants to handle immigrant hot potato so we just ignore it. I say this AS an immigrant, btw & as someone who spent a significant chunk of time before children working in immigration and refugee issues.)

[Saille]

As far as multiculturalism, I know my kids are exposed to more cultures than I ever was. I was in 3rd grade before I ever heard the word Jewish, and had only met one family at that point who was not Caucasian.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, and this particularly sticks out for me.

 

Schools draw their student body from specific geographical areas. Many schools are pretty homogenous, economically and ethnically. Certainly this is true of every school I've ever been in.

 

This is also an area where the opportunity to teach religion can be a benefit, not a handicap. Certainly, folks could choose to pretend no other religion exists, or to malign members of other religions. OTOH, I can teach my kids specific details about the origins and details of various belief systems without having the principal come sprinting down to my classroom. :D I think I can argue that my kids are going to understand a lot more about diverse groups of people than I knew when I graduated from hs, at a much younger age.

 

Also, someone upthread mentioned volunteering. The last school I taught at was so lawsuit-paranoid that there was a blanket no-field-trips policy. I couldn't take the kids a mile down the road to a nature preserve. Any volunteer opportunities would have had to come to us. My kids volunteer at least quarterly, and usually far more often.

[Catherine]

A really good, gifted teacher is an excellent person to teach good citizenship. My middle son was lucky enough to have had 2 of these teachers while he was in school and I know he benefited. One of them had the kids in her kindergarten class actually applauding the efforts of a classmate who had *really* struggled that year (he had major undiagnosed special needs) when he made progress on a task he had been working on for a long time. In my eldest's kindergarten class, I know this boy would have ended up the class pariah by October. The first teacher I mentioned really led by example in teaching these kids how people should treat each other.

 

The second one simply loved kids, and it showed in everything she did. They adored her and wanted to please her-she used to read to them from a rocking chair every day...she was just an excellent example of a kindly, responsible adult for these children. They learned so much from her.

 

So I really do agree with the mission of public schools in encouraging good citizenship. The trouble is, so many of the teachers don't do a great job in this area, and, it sounds like your cousin's work assumes homeschooled children can't, or won't, learn these skills, and I don't agree with that at all.

[Carol in Cal.]

One of the requirements of a democracy in the classical sense of the word is an educated citizenry that has accepted civic responsibilities as well as claiming civil rights. Many proponants of public schooling believe that that is best accomplished by public schools--that they democratize everyone, and teach the kind of responsible citizenship that will keep our nation strong. I have a good friend who believes this. She has plenty of money, but would not even consider private schooling or home schooling for her children, because she believes strongly in making public schooling work. And I actually admire the way she walks the talk. She does a tremendous amount of advocacy and volunteer work, and she literally makes the schools work for her children and for other people's children.

 

However, I do not believe that teachers are educated properly to teach this kind of thing consistently. I also do not believe that private schools or homeschooling are inconsistent with these citizenship goals. I observe that my own teaching of civic responsibility is more explicit, more personally modelled, and ultimately more effective than what I see from local public schools, who don't seem to feel this responsibility at all.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Carol in Cal.

[lionfamily1999]

I doubt that anyone here is grooming their kids for holy war. But I think that there ARE people who are doing just that - in segregated schools, in homeschools, in communities locked away from the 'mainstream'. I have done my sharing of dissing the 'mainstream' but when I see the radicalism that occurs when some groups distance themselves too far from the mainstream, I grow concerned too.

Ime, those nuts work just as hard (if not harder) when their kids are in ps. I don't believe that little Hitler (of b-day cake fame) was being hsed. His parents were probably very happy to use their son as a social bomb... :glare:

A really good, gifted teacher is an excellent person to teach good citizenship.

(snip)

So I really do agree with the mission of public schools in encouraging good citizenship. The trouble is, so many of the teachers don't do a great job in this area, and, it sounds like your cousin's work assumes homeschooled children can't, or won't, learn these skills, and I don't agree with that at all.

:iagree:

Ime, a happy *new* citizen is an excellent person to teach citizenship. My gramma moved here at the end of WWII and to this day she is the best person I know to teach someone the joys of being an American.

 

I do agree good teachers teach good citizenship, and I don't think it's at all exclusive to ps.

[jujsky]

The basis of that idea bothers me a LOT!

 

*If* the ps system actually taught history and government in a thorough, yet unbiased manor, my opinion would be different.

 

I don't want my dc learning to be enamored with political leaders. I want them to think.

 

:iagree: My thoughts exactly!

[Saille]

Well, first of all, I think ps teaches them more how to be a consumer than to be a citizen. :glare:

 

x-posted with you, but vigorously nodding my head!

 

And Carol in Cal., I agree that theory and practice are often worlds apart.

[Daisy]

Your cousin is simply spouting the party (NEA) line.

 

LOL. She's working on her Master's in Education. She has officially listened to those kinds of speeches ad nauseam. My husband also has his Masters in Education. It takes a strong person to disregard all that clap-trap for 8+ years.

 

Parents are perfectly capable of teaching their children to be good citizens.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Daisy

[angela in ohio]

Your cousin is simply spouting the party (NEA) line.

 

LOL. She's working on her Master's in Education. She has officially listened to those kinds of speeches ad nauseam. My husband also has his Masters in Education. It takes a strong person to disregard all that clap-trap for 8+ years.

 

Parents are perfectly capable of teaching their children to be good citizens.

 

:iagree: all the way down to dh having his Masters and having heard a bunch of garbage during it.

 

"Teaching them to be a citizen" is code from the NEA. They are not talking about voting and volunteering and the things we think of. ;)

[MSNative]

So my questions: what makes a citizen? What is it specifically that ps is doing that hs is not? What do we want all citizens to know, do, have read, etc? What ought an American citizen know, do, be that is different from other nationalities?

 

I agree with the poster who said that we are segmenting in our society with little binding us together. In fact, people are quite willing to snap and snarl at anyone who may possibly disagree with them. Unfortunately, our current society seems to enjoy focusing on what is divisive, rather than what we have in common.

[MBM]

I think she is just grasping at straws in a feeble attempt to support her thesis.

[cin]

I did not read through all the responses, but when I first read 'a good citizen' my thoughts went torwards the 'good citizenship' awards we got. It wasn't about being a patriotic citizen, it was about being a nice person. Sharing, helping, obeying, etc. Today I think it would be better titled 'being a productive member of society' or some such thing.

[Splungeman]

I didn't learn to respect democracy and voting because of student council. In fact, I felt student council was a waste of resources and energy, since my student council was not really empowered to do anything but hold bake sales and do trash clean-ups. :D

 

What happens if a person does not learn how to be a citizen? Would they be some sort of societal outcast who lives in a shack out in the country? It seems to me that if citizenship is knowing the basic rules of society-- awareness of laws, understanding the processes of government, etc-- one would HAVE to learn these things by simply existing in society. In order to make money, you have to get a job. To get a job, you need to have a Social Security Card (most of the time). To own property you have to pay taxes, and so on. If someone just wasn't taught these things in a formal setting, it seems to me they'd still learn them pretty fast in order to survive in society.

 

And it must be said that there are tons of people out there who went through the public education system who seem unable to figure out how to tie their own shoes, let alone figure out how to fill out a tax form! :lol:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Well the WH argues that fat children threaten the safety of the citizenry in the sense that they likely become fat adults, who are too fat to serve. "The White House and its allies are also making the case that the obesity epidemic is affects national security; obesity is now one of the most common disqualifiers for military service." There are other reasons such as healthcare cost, so therefore, Michelle Obama has spearheaded and inserted the Let's Move campaign, to eliminate childhood obesity over a generation (what is that, 17 years, 40 years?) in schools as well as ped offices, sidewalks. I think every child in school, not just the US citizen minors, will be re-educated as to their duty in achieving non-obesity.

 

:confused: Are you saying that it is bad to encourage children to be healthy. Geesh.

 

America and people actually do haven a problem with obesity. I know since I am personally trying to lose a lot of weight:( It is much easier to prevent obesity and its related health problems which I can personally testify to than to treat it once it happens:(

 

 

I read the NY Times article and checked out the Let's Move site and IMHO it overwhelming emphasizes the health benefits of being active and eating right. I saw only one sentence on national security in the NY Time article. You seem to be implying that this is some insidious plot on the part of Michelle Obama and I strongly disagree if that is indeed the case.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Your cousin is simply spouting the party (NEA) line.

 

LOL. She's working on her Master's in Education. She has officially listened to those kinds of speeches ad nauseam. My husband also has his Masters in Education. It takes a strong person to disregard all that clap-trap for 8+ years.

 

Parents are perfectly capable of teaching their children to be good citizens.

 

:iagree:

[Splungeman]

Well the WH argues that fat children threaten the safety of the citizenry in the sense that they likely become fat adults, who are too fat to serve. "The White House and its allies are also making the case that the obesity epidemic is affects national security; obesity is now one of the most common disqualifiers for military service." There are other reasons such as healthcare cost, so therefore, Michelle Obama has spearheaded and inserted the Let's Move campaign, to eliminate childhood obesity over a generation (what is that, 17 years, 40 years?) in schools as well as ped offices, sidewalks. I think every child in school, not just the US citizen minors, will be re-educated as to their duty in achieving non-obesity.

 

LOL. This just makes me laugh. My big problem is that they are still using BMI to calculate if someone is obese. By that reckoning, The Rock and Russell Crowe are obese. Uh huh.

[LizzyBee]

Public schools teach how to be a citizen.... Well, I would think that would mean the public school would then teach about the founding of our country, ways to honor and respect that history by way of the National Anthem, the Pledge of Allegiance, the format of our government (and other governments), how laws are enacted, how individuals are elected, and how to be an informed voter.

Much of the basics can be learned in elementary school. And I don't think that the public school is the only place that we can teach these things. I also think that the school isn't necessarily the best place to teach respect (I personally think they lack heavily in this). However I would argue that I don't think most public high school graduates are really the best informed voters.

As far as multiculturalism, I know my kids are exposed to more cultures than I ever was. I was in 3rd grade before I ever heard the word Jewish, and had only met one family at that point who was not Caucasian. The world had not yet been presented to me at school in the form of a globe or a world map, although I did know that it was round. Until I was in 5th grade, all focus was on the United States. My parents were the ones who bought a globe to show us places mentioned in the news, and talked about family history, and church history, which took us outside the United States.

And one of my best friends in high school graduated believing that Communism was the best form of government... :lol: Maybe he missed a class?

 

All the things that you mentioned in your second sentence were done in the public schools I attended. My schools did a great job teaching good citizenship, imo. Critical thinking skills...not so much. :001_smile:

 

However, multiculturalism does not exist and was not taught where I lived. When I was in 7th grade, an 8th grade boy moved to our area. He was multiracial and from NYC. He had a girlfriend, because she wondered what it would be like to date a black boy. He moved back to NYC after a group of kids from school showed up at his house with shotguns and threatened him. I'm 99.9% sure that nothing was done to those kids, legally or by their parents. I graduated from high school and college (Univ of MD) without ever taking a World History course. I've learned more about World History from SOTW than I ever knew before I began homeschooling....which means my kids are also receiving a better education in that regard than I did.

[stripe]

I don't think I actually did learn much about "citizenship" or being an active participant in society just from school, but I think it's a reasonable goal. Not propagandizing, but explaining rights and responsibilities, and encouraging children to think of others and how to better the world.

 

I don't believe most American public schools do an adequate job bringing people of different backgrounds together, but this is basically a societal problem, so I don't think homeschoolers are any more culturally isolated than those in other educational environments.

 

I am happy there is a conversation about diet, exercise, cooking, and other important issues going on. It's not really "freedom" to just shout, "You can pry my cheeseburger out of my cold, dead hand!" No one wants to give you communal cabbage soup daily. Really. How many people do you know who have had a foot amputated due to diabetes? I know at least six. I hate to think what lies ahead.

[mcconnellboys]

Public school teaches children to be good citizens of the gulag, which is where progressivism is leading us.

[BigMamaBird]

"You can pry my cheeseburger out of my cold, dead hand!"

 

Oh my!:smilielol5: When I'm pregnant I'm sure that could easily come out of my mouth!

[WishboneDawn]

Didn't read all the posts but I think my counter to anyone that makes this assertion would be, "Yes. And you can see the proof of how effective the schools are by taking a look at voting rates in young adults, eh?"

[Mrs Mungo]

Public school teaches children to be good citizens of the gulag, which is where progressivism is leading us.

 

Wow, way to keep things non-partisan.

[mcconnellboys]

I don't believe progressives are confined to any one particular party line, are they? so I'm not quite sure what this means.....

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't believe progressives are confined to any one particular party line, are they? so I'm not quite sure what this means.....

 

Yes, but I really have never met any conservatives or liberals or in-betweens who want or secretly desire to have gulags in America:001_huh:

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't believe progressives are confined to any one particular party line, are they? so I'm not quite sure what this means.....

 

What policies do you consider progressive? Progressive policies are usually considered to be in opposition to conservative policies.

 

Yes, but I really have never met any conservatives or liberals or in-betweens who want or secretly desire to have gulags in America:001_huh:

 

Of course you haven't met anyone who says that, they *secretly* desire them! That is what social justice is all about-gulags. Teddy Roosevelt? FDR? LBJ? They were all about the gulags.

[Jenny in Atl]

Sounds like your cousin has not met many homeschoolers... My kids are exposed to more culture, more real school than most of their public/private school peers. Yes, the stereotype is the middle class, white denim jumper wearing, Ford Econoline driving, uber religious family. But they are rarely what I see, even among many of the more conservative Xtian homschooling families near me.

 

Educational freedom is a true progressive approach. She needs to get out more.

[elizabeth]

Gross hyperbole. People died in the gulags by the hundreds of thousands in reprehensible ways. Readers around the world are just now able to read the entirety of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's book The First Circle. I strongly suggest those interested in freedom to read it. I must be dense as I cannot understand what First Amendment issues the" progressives "are tromping on in such a way that progressives are compared to horrible despots who beat, starved , tortured and imprisoned innocent people for political expediency in a totalitarian regime. It is insulting to those who survived atrocities to be used as a verbal jab in an otherwise civil discussion.

[Slartibartfast]

Public school teaches children to be good citizens of the gulag, which is where progressivism is leading us.

 

 

:lol:

 

What does that even mean??

[Mrs Mungo]

Gross hyperbole. People died in the gulags by the hundreds of thousands in reprehensible ways. Readers around the world are just now able to read the entirety of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's book The First Circle. I strongly suggest those interested in freedom to read it. I must be dense as I cannot understand what First Amendment issues the" progressives "are tromping on in such a way that progressives are compared to horrible despots who beat, starved , tortured and imprisoned innocent people for political expediency in a totalitarian regime. It is insulting to those who survived atrocities to be used as a verbal jab in an otherwise civil discussion.

 

Come on, elizabeth, if Glenn Beck said it, it must be truuuue!

[elizabeth]

While I am fully engaged permit me to share some great books about despots and totalitarian regimes as we are currently studying communism in the former USSR and its counterpart in Mao's China.

Wild Swans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Swans

One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_the_Life_of_Ivan_Denisovich

Gulag Archipelago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago

and last but not least Red Scarf Girl by Jiang http://www.jilijiang.com/red-scarf-girl/

If I have a complaint about TWTM it is the lack of great biography and historical fiction in the higher grades dealing with contemporary politics. This is AP exam level material that certainly is best covered before college in such a way that it is not abstract typeface in a book written by someone who did not experience it. This is" in your face," undeniable suffering that must be addressed and acknowledged by educated, caring people. To not read such things is in my opinion to be a poorly shaped human intellectually, emotionally and spiritually. These books challenge , upset and ultimately enrich those who read them.

[Perry]

While I am fully engaged permit me to share some great books about despots and totalitarian regimes as we are currently studying communism in the former USSR and its counterpart in Mao's China.

Wild Swans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Swans

One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_the_Life_of_Ivan_Denisovich

Gulag Archipelago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago

and last but not least Red Scarf Girl by Jiang http://www.jilijiang.com/red-scarf-girl/

If I have a complaint about TWTM it is the lack of great biography and historical fiction in the higher grades dealing with contemporary politics. This is AP exam level material that certainly is best covered before college in such a way that it is not abstract typeface in a book written by someone who did not experience it. This is" in your face," undeniable suffering that must be addressed and acknowledged by educated, caring people. To not read such things is in my opinion to be a poorly shaped human intellectually, emotionally and spiritually. These books challenge , upset and ultimately enrich those who read them.

 

Elizabeth, have you read Alexander Dolgun's story: An American in the Gulag ? It's an amazing book, and time for me to reread it. Thanks for reminding me.