Why are these ps moms so blase about the problems?

[Jean in Newcastle]

At gymnastics last night I sat in front of two moms of middle schoolers. Yes, I eavesdropped. They said:

 

1. One teacher (a coach) gives good grades to the kids who are on his teams. The mom said an "A" in his class meant nothing.

 

2. Another single teacher, gets the middle-school girls to write up his posts on sites like match.com.

 

3. At least one other teacher goes out and gets drunk during lunch time.

 

They shook their heads about all of the above and said "Well, what can you do."

 

I understand that some are committed to the public schools. But why aren't they banging down the school board members doors to report these teachers? Why does it just have to be "one of those things"?

[Chris in VA]

I think it's hard for some people to

A. Believe they will be heard and really make a difference if they speak up

B. Sacrifice their need to feel comfortable (confrontation is not comfortable)

C. Give up living in denial because that means they've been negligent and causing possible harm to their own children by letting things get so bad.

 

Frankly, it's easier to deny it's "that bad" even when it stares you in the face.

 

Sad, huh?

[athena1277]

I wonder if they are not speaking up because they fear the repercussions their dc would face. I certainly would not want to be the kid whose mom caused a stink about Mr. So-and-so. Especially if that person is generally liked (whether for a good reason or bad).

[Ginevra]

I've thought this when friends with kids in school are unhappy with the lack in their child's education. For example, a friend who was appalled to learn that her sixth-grader's English papers were not being corrected for spelling because "We don't work on spelling in 6th grade." Even if my children were in PS and staying there, this would be a no-brainer for me. When she gets home, she's getting a spelling lesson. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do believe that there is a thinking that those of us who would go to bat to rectify such problems are hover-mothers. We can't let our kids experience negative interactions, therefore, we are the ones who are not acting rightly. After all, doesn't the kid have to get used to it? To learn to cope with reality? That is what some think. :001_huh:

[Alicia64]

Or as dh says, "they don't want to give up all that free daycare."

 

Alley

[Crissy]

My initial reaction would be that each of them are exaggerating their story in some way, trying to 'one-up' the other moms.

If that is the case, no one is going to approach the school board based on an assumption, gossip, or a single case that has been over-blown.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My initial reaction would be that each of them are exaggerating their story in some way, trying to 'one-up' the other moms.

If that is the case, no one is going to approach the school board based on an assumption, gossip, or a single case that has been over-blown.

 

It is true that it was gossip. But I didn't get the feeling that it was one-upmanship. There was more a sense of "Yea, I'd heard that too." Sort of like it was common knowledge, if you know what I mean.

[Mom-ninja.]

Or as dh says, "they don't want to give up all that free daycare."

 

Alley

 

That's funny.

[G5052]

In middle school, I had a history teacher who used to tell us about his adventures in various local bars and visits to adult clubs. One of the science teachers was known for going after female students and reportedly showing them p*rn that kept in his desk.

 

I remember my friends and I telling our parents and being told to just deal with it and to never be alone with either of them. I think that the attitude was that adults will be adults, and they didn't expect better behavior of teachers.

 

Now that I have children, I think I'd have a fit if I heard about something like that! But it may be so common that parents don't even complain anymore.

[GnomeyNewt]

Or as dh says, "they don't want to give up all that free daycare."

 

Alley

 

That's funny.

 

But probably true! I often have wondered the same things myself.

[stansclan89]

I do believe that there is a thinking that those of us who would go to bat to rectify such problems are hover-mothers. We can't let our kids experience negative interactions, therefore, we are the ones who are not acting rightly. After all, doesn't the kid have to get used to it? To learn to cope with reality? That is what some think. :001_huh:

 

My understanding of what a hover-mom is is someone who tells the teacher that child deserves an A, so you better change her grade to an A or else, instead of telling child to work harder.

 

I think that in the case of OP, it sounds like gossip that is common gossip, but there is no proof. They probably can't get anything done about it until they have actual proof.

[catalinakel]

Those stories are hard for me to believe. My daughter went to ps for middle school last year. Any time I had a concern, I called and spoke with the principal and it was dealt with. Must be a really bad school....

[Ellie]

Because if they thought otherwise they'd have to actually do something, which might involve homeschooling, and they're not willing to do that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Those stories are hard for me to believe. My daughter went to ps for middle school last year. Any time I had a concern, I called and spoke with the principal and it was dealt with. Must be a really bad school....

 

See - I don't find it hard to believe and here is why:

 

1. My 9th grade year my English teacher and my history teacher were having a very public affair. Both were married. (Not a crime but bad judgment to have it so public, imo.)

 

2. I walked in on my art teacher dealing drugs to one of the kids. I was threatened with bodily harm if I ever told. I never did (except now 35 years later on the public internet:tongue_smilie:)

 

3. My algebra teacher was the football coach. Our blackboard was covered with football diagrams. I almost failed algebra because he never actually explained algebra.

 

4. My history teacher used to sing us very bawdy songs in class. These were songs with words in it that would have had any one of us kids suspended.

 

5. My English teacher (same one as was having the affair) came to class one day just plastered. I'm not sure if it was drugs or alcohol but she was very obviously impaired. And it was obviously not something like pain medicine because she told us all in the class to be quiet about it.

 

I never told my parents any of this. I don't know why I didn't, other than a general feeling that nothing would have been done if I did. So I have the same question for my parents - why was I convinced that they too would have been blase about it (how do you do that French diacritical mark?)

[delaney]

Because if they thought otherwise they'd have to actually do something, which might involve homeschooling, and they're not willing to do that.

True. My kids are in public right now(with the exception of the one I just pulled) and I felt very defeated and unable to get what I wanted. At one point I thought perhaps going in everyday and being involved in their classes would change the problems but why do all that work when I can keep them here and educate them better for the same amount of effort. Now I have to tell you that as a mom to 6 I was just beginning to see the light at the end of the "tunnel" with the thought of getting the youngest in preschool in 2 years. FREEDOM!!! FINALLY!!!

Now I have swung around and basically committed myself to 11 more years of being home everyday or more if they don't go to middle school public. My friends are stunned that I would do this.

[Charles Wallace]

Because if they thought otherwise they'd have to actually do something, which might involve homeschooling, and they're not willing to do that.

 

With all due respect, I don't find your reasons persuasive. Putting aside for a moment the issue of whether or not they would want to, be capable of, or should have to homeschool when their property taxes are subsidizing a public school, they may not want to "actually do something" because of some very practical reasons, beginning with the lack of proof.

 

Let's consider some of the things the OP brought up in her post:

 

1. One teacher (a coach) gives good grades to the kids who are on his teams. The mom said an "A" in his class meant nothing.

 

2. Another single teacher, gets the middle-school girls to write up his posts on sites like match.com.

 

3. At least one other teacher goes out and gets drunk during lunch time.

 

 

If I, a parent, were to call a principal and accuse any of these teachers of any of these activities, I'd better be walking into that office with proof in my hand.

 

Considering these individually...

 

1.What proof would I be able to acquire about the coach? The kids who are on his teams may have earned the good grades. What proof do I have that someone not on his team who is objectively and demonstrably fulfilling the course objectives is being unfairly discriminated against?

 

2. I had better be walking in with Match.com data on this one -- but how could I, as a parent, prove that this teacher had coerced these girls to write up posts on Match.com? Unless the child were my own daughter, and my daughter was willing to swear to the fact that the teacher had made her or persuaded her to engage in this activity, I would have nothing.

 

3. Again, this is provable -- but not by me. What evidence do I have that the teacher is drunk? Even if the teacher smells like a dance with Jack Daniels, I would need to bring her/him into the principal's office in that condition.

 

What I'd be risking in basically all of these cases is a slander lawsuit. I'd be damaging or endangering their professional reputations in all of those cases unless I had some actual evidence I could bring in -- and how could I do that?

 

Now, perhaps you're saying, "I wouldn't need proof before I'd pull my child and homeschool her." That's wonderful -- but not all parents can afford to have one person stay home. Not all parents have the education to homeschool. What, for example, could a single parent do?

 

Do some parents use the schools as free daycare? Sure! Are some homeschoolers doing absolutely nothing of value with their kids besides letting them play video games all day? Sure! I think it's worthwhile to consider that not all people -- schoolers or homeschoolers -- can be tarred with the same brush.

[Murphy101]

I can easily share similiar tales as Jean. So it's not at all hard for me to believe. I think that's the big problem too. Patents want to think it's too much to believe. Because if they believe it - they have to do something.

 

And truth is very fee parents would be willing and or able to do whatever it takes up to and including quiting their to make sure things on the home front change even if it doesn't include homeschooling. Bash me for saying it, but it's true.

 

Truth is most people don't give much thought to it.

[Caribbean Queen]

I find the stories easy to believe. My high school had a drunkard teacher, a teacher who never did any lessons, and one who liked to tell us his personal, marital business. Students openly cheated on tests. The students used to get away with cursing at the teachers. The entire environment was unacceptable. It wasn't like there was one or two problems that needed to be fixed. Parents could not just make a phone call or meet with the principal and fix things. Since the parents are unwilling or unable to remove their children from school they act blase or they pretend that bad situations are good for their children - it's socialization.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Caribbean Queen

[OhM]

Those stories are hard for me to believe. My daughter went to ps for middle school last year. Any time I had a concern, I called and spoke with the principal and it was dealt with. Must be a really bad school....

 

I know that I have heard stories like this from friends who are public school teachers about their coworkers, and in one case, the school principal (who, it was commonly known, had the window on her door covered with paper so that she and another female teacher could have trysts at lunch time.)

 

This is at the large, very poorly performing, city school district in the area. The whole atmosphere sounded to be pretty oversexed in general. (In fact, a friend divorced her husband who taught at another school in the district after his affair with the teacher in the next classroom came to light.)

 

Anyway, I don't find these stories to be hard to believe at all, in certain areas. If a culture pervades that accepts and tolerates this kind of crap, parents have very little chance of making a dent in it. However, I also know of several schools (our local district included) which has school leadership who would never let it get close to this point.

[NorthwestMom]

With all due respect, I don't find your reasons persuasive. Putting aside for a moment the issue of whether or not they would want to, be capable of, or should have to homeschool when their property taxes are subsidizing a public school, they may not want to "actually do something" because of some very practical reasons, beginning with the lack of proof.

 

Let's consider some of the things the OP brought up in her post:

 

1. One teacher (a coach) gives good grades to the kids who are on his teams. The mom said an "A" in his class meant nothing.

 

2. Another single teacher, gets the middle-school girls to write up his posts on sites like match.com.

 

3. At least one other teacher goes out and gets drunk during lunch time.

 

 

If I, a parent, were to call a principal and accuse any of these teachers of any of these activities, I'd better be walking into that office with proof in my hand.

 

Considering these individually...

 

1.What proof would I be able to acquire about the coach? The kids who are on his teams may have earned the good grades. What proof do I have that someone not on his team who is objectively and demonstrably fulfilling the course objectives is being unfairly discriminated against?

 

2. I had better be walking in with Match.com data on this one -- but how could I, as a parent, prove that this teacher had coerced these girls to write up posts on Match.com? Unless the child were my own daughter, and my daughter was willing to swear to the fact that the teacher had made her or persuaded her to engage in this activity, I would have nothing.

 

3. Again, this is provable -- but not by me. What evidence do I have that the teacher is drunk? Even if the teacher smells like a dance with Jack Daniels, I would need to bring her/him into the principal's office in that condition.

 

What I'd be risking in basically all of these cases is a slander lawsuit. I'd be damaging or endangering their professional reputations in all of those cases unless I had some actual evidence I could bring in -- and how could I do that?

 

Now, perhaps you're saying, "I wouldn't need proof before I'd pull my child and homeschool her." That's wonderful -- but not all parents can afford to have one person stay home. Not all parents have the education to homeschool. What, for example, could a single parent do?

 

Do some parents use the schools as free daycare? Sure! Are some homeschoolers doing absolutely nothing of value with their kids besides letting them play video games all day? Sure! I think it's worthwhile to consider that not all people -- schoolers or homeschoolers -- can be tarred with the same brush.

 

 

Thank you Charles Wallace! Very well put!

 

As a former ps teacher, I can imagine that these issues are possible but you have to have proof before you act. That would be hard to get for numbers 1 and 2.

 

Just because we are comfortable in our role as homeschoolers does not mean every parent is equally comfortable. I can't coach my kids' sports teams at all, and even though DS's baseball coach last year used a whole lot of swear words in his routine speech that I did not approve of, I did not pull him off the team and "Homecoach" him because I do not have the knowledge or ability to do so. It did not kill DS to hear the word c**p although it was certainly not ideal, just like it won't kill the students in situations 1 and 2 to have less than moral teacher.

 

I certainly think any parent who thinks a teacher is drunk in the classroom has a moral imperative to call the principal and demand an investigation. As a teacher I would have been very aggressive about having a drunk teacher removed from the classroom.

[delaney]

I was more alarmed by the "oh well" attitude of the parents. I hate when parents fall back on, "Well what can you do about it" and accept crap as a standard.

[Jean in Newcastle]

While I've chosen to homeschool my kids, I don't expect everyone else to want to or even need to. But if my kids were in the school, I would want to have professional standards in place. In my former engineering firms, affairs were common. So I suppose that one would stand uncontested. But you were absolutely expected to do your job. So a teacher who did not actually teach and gave easy A's would not have survived in that job environment. Also - you were expected to have professional behavior - so using inappropriate language or behavior with clients (can we call the students clients?) would have been grounds for a pink slip as well. And you definitely would have been expected not to drink on the job. I saw one co-worker being fired specifically for that offense. I do however agree with Charles Wallace's comments about proof. Even when they do have credible evidence of s*xual misconduct with students some teachers are just quietly passed on to other school districts. I could find a link somewhere since we've had two high profile cases in the news in the past year for our area.

[Mom22ns]

At gymnastics last night I sat in front of two moms of middle schoolers. Yes, I eavesdropped. They said:

 

1. One teacher (a coach) gives good grades to the kids who are on his teams. The mom said an "A" in his class meant nothing.

 

2. Another single teacher, gets the middle-school girls to write up his posts on sites like match.com.

 

3. At least one other teacher goes out and gets drunk during lunch time.

 

They shook their heads about all of the above and said "Well, what can you do."

 

I understand that some are committed to the public schools. But why aren't they banging down the school board members doors to report these teachers? Why does it just have to be "one of those things"?

 

Well, my first thought is unless there is proof, then there is nothing to do. On the first two, my response would be "Who cares?". As long as my child gets the grade they deserve, I'm not hurt if the coach gives special treatment to his players and it would be very hard to prove. On the second, I don't see anyone being hurt at all - harmless fun. On the third, if I had a child in the class and they reported this to be true, I'd be in the principals office the very next day! As long as it was just a rumor from other people, I'd still stay out of it. Rumors have very little value and aren't worth getting upset over.

[Charles Wallace]

I certainly think any parent who thinks a teacher is drunk in the classroom has a moral imperative to call the principal and demand an investigation. As a teacher I would have been very aggressive about having a drunk teacher removed from the classroom.

 

I think what I might do in that situation is go see for myself, if I could. That way, at least there would be an adult saying, "I met with Mrs. X before her sixth-period class and smelled what appeared to be alcohol on her breath." It would at least have more weight than doing the "I heard that..." approach.

[Charles Wallace]

While I've chosen to homeschool my kids, I don't expect everyone else to want to or even need to. But if my kids were in the school, I would want to have professional standards in place. In my former engineering firms, affairs were common. So I suppose that one would stand uncontested. But you were absolutely expected to do your job. So a teacher who did not actually teach and gave easy A's would not have survived in that job environment. Also - you were expected to have professional behavior - so using inappropriate language or behavior with clients (can we call the students clients?) would have been grounds for a pink slip as well. And you definitely would have been expected not to drink on the job. I saw one co-worker being fired specifically for that offense. I do however agree with Charles Wallace's comments about proof. Even when they do have credible evidence of s*xual misconduct with students some teachers are just quietly passed on to other school districts. I could find a link somewhere since we've had two high profile cases in the news in the past year for our area.

 

Believe me, even though I personally benefit from it, I think ironclad tenure is one of the worst things to happen to teaching since the death of Socrates.

[kalanamak]

I've thought this when friends with kids in school are unhappy with the lack in their child's education.

 

No kidding. I know someone who, when their child was 9, lamented she wasn't a homeschooler because the lack of challenge. I couldn't convince her that starting at 9 was just as valid as starting at 5.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that as homeschoolers in this big happy group that is this forum, we tend to forget how unusual we are.

 

I am a homeschooler to the core. I will NEVER be at the mercy of a school for my DD. Even though she will probably attend a brick and mortar high school, I know that it's not my only option. And that gives me tremendous psychic power.

 

However, most people don't feel that way.

[tex-mex]

BE CAREFUL -- you also need to realize how bad the rumor mill is in the upper grades. Having been in the trenches as a former ps teacher, I can say this with a true witness to teachers being maligned by students/parents who have an axe to grind. Believe only 25% of it and then realize (the 25%) probably got misconstrued. In 15 years, I've only seen one rumor be true and that teacher was F-I-R-E-D.

[tex-mex]

Thank you Charles Wallace! Very well put!

 

As a former ps teacher, I can imagine that these issues are possible but you have to have proof before you act. That would be hard to get for numbers 1 and 2.

 

Just because we are comfortable in our role as homeschoolers does not mean every parent is equally comfortable. I can't coach my kids' sports teams at all, and even though DS's baseball coach last year used a whole lot of swear words in his routine speech that I did not approve of, I did not pull him off the team and "Homecoach" him because I do not have the knowledge or ability to do so. It did not kill DS to hear the word c**p although it was certainly not ideal, just like it won't kill the students in situations 1 and 2 to have less than moral teacher.

 

I certainly think any parent who thinks a teacher is drunk in the classroom has a moral imperative to call the principal and demand an investigation. As a teacher I would have been very aggressive about having a drunk teacher removed from the classroom.

 

EXACTLY... these are everyday flawed people put in the position to teach your kid. They make mistakes. Teachers are not perfect. I ask anyone to do one year in the public schools teaching 180 days straight before they have the critique to say this teacher did this and this teacher did that. That opens up the critique to others to looks at us HSers under a microscope of scrutiny.

 

Yes, I knew of colleagues whom I personally thought should NEVER have taught... but were the children permanently scarred? No. (And this was a school were the kids were poverty level and had mature knowledge of adult matters -- and this was 3rd grade.) It was like being thrown into a pit of vipers to teach there. Survival was the everyday challenge. And the one teacher who was fired -- she was a new teacher who had no business with a room full of kids. Parents and all of our staff complained about her. It is easier to fire a new teacher than an old (tenured) teacher -- those tenured who cannot teach end up being transferred from school to school. Nowadays with NCLB it is easier to threaten them with firing for lack of performance. But unions can protect them. Scary.

Edited February 3, 2010 by tex-mex

[Jean in Newcastle]

These moms did not have an axe to grind. They shrugged their shoulders and did not care. I was the one appalled and I don't have an axe to grind because my child doesn't go there. I also was a ps teacher. I'm not talking about teachers who need some time to figure out classroom discipline or routines or even how to accomplish everything in the textbook. I'm talking about teachers who are not meeting what I would consider minimum levels of professional conduct.

[chris's girl]

I honestly don't think it enters most peoples' line of thinking to homeschool. So they accept way too much as "just the way things are". Not that most parents would not turn into bears when their child is threatened, but I think when it's not harming their child directly, most people are less activist.

[Caribbean Queen]

...What proof do I have that someone not on his team who is objectively and demonstrably fulfilling the course objectives is being unfairly discriminated against?

 

...but how could I, as a parent, prove that this teacher had coerced these girls to write up posts on Match.com?

 

...What evidence do I have that the teacher is drunk? Even if the teacher smells like a dance with Jack Daniels, I would need to bring her/him into the principal's office in that condition.

 

What I'd be risking in basically all of these cases is a slander lawsuit. I'd be damaging or endangering their professional reputations in all of those cases unless I had some actual evidence I could bring in -- and how could I do that?

 

...not all parents can afford to have one person stay home. Not all parents have the education to homeschool. What, for example, could a single parent do?

.

 

Parents with children in good schools will pressure the school administration to do their jobs. Parents will call the principal and say, "My daughter told me this is going on at school. What are you going to do about it?" and by golly the principal better do something, because the parents will not put up with an incompetant school administration. The principal better look at the jock's school work, and interview the matchmakers. If the teachers are guilty the prinicpal better come up with a plan to try to make things right. The principal can't say to the parents, "You don't have proof for making these accusations, therefore I don't have to listen to you. Stop slandering our school." It is the principal's job, as the supervisor of the teachers, to look into complaints.

[Tammyla]

Knowing it and proving are difficult, but I think there is an unwritten acceptance and fear of whistle blowing.

 

This week two teachers have been charged with numerous s... acts with a student and apparently another has been accused by a student. The latter is still teaching and imo getting protection from his contract. The second was released on bail, has the principle looking into his district policy and the first is in jail.

 

There must have been red flags. (These were three different schools.)

 

At gymnastics last night I sat in front of two moms of middle schoolers. Yes, I eavesdropped. They said:

 

1. One teacher (a coach) gives good grades to the kids who are on his teams. The mom said an "A" in his class meant nothing.

 

2. Another single teacher, gets the middle-school girls to write up his posts on sites like match.com.

 

3. At least one other teacher goes out and gets drunk during lunch time.

 

They shook their heads about all of the above and said "Well, what can you do."

 

I understand that some are committed to the public schools. But why aren't they banging down the school board members doors to report these teachers? Why does it just have to be "one of those things"?

[MyFourSons]

As a former teacher who has worked in both the public school and private setting, I am appalled at these stories. But, it is nearly impossible for some teachers to get fired, especially in places where there are strong unions or the teachers can acquire tenure. However, parents need to realize that they are the actual employers for public schools, they pay the salaries with their taxes. They should be complaining to the principal, going to school board meetings, and making their voices heard.

 

I think that this complacent attitude is far too common in our society in general, whether we are talking about education, our elected officials, or the law. We are supposed to run things, not allow them to be run for us regardless of our wishes.

[MyFourSons]

Parents with children in good schools will pressure the school administration to do their jobs. Parents will call the principal and say, "My daughter told me this is going on at school. What are you going to do about it?" and by golly the principal better do something, because the parents will not put up with an incompetant school administration. The principal better look at the jock's school work, and interview the matchmakers. If the teachers are guilty the prinicpal better come up with a plan to try to make things right. The principal can't say to the parents, "You don't have proof for making these accusations, therefore I don't have to listen to you. Stop slandering our school." It is the principal's job, as the supervisor of the teachers, to look into complaints.

So true, as a former teacher I know that the difference between a good school and a great school is parental involvement. The more there is the better.

[Joanne]

At gymnastics last night I sat in front of two moms of middle schoolers. Yes, I eavesdropped. They said:

 

1. One teacher (a coach) gives good grades to the kids who are on his teams. The mom said an "A" in his class meant nothing.

 

2. Another single teacher, gets the middle-school girls to write up his posts on sites like match.com.

 

3. At least one other teacher goes out and gets drunk during lunch time.

 

They shook their heads about all of the above and said "Well, what can you do."

 

I understand that some are committed to the public schools. But why aren't they banging down the school board members doors to report these teachers? Why does it just have to be "one of those things"?

 

I'm not a fan of public schools, I am quickly critical of them, skeptical of their "goodness" and have gone to great lengths to avoid them for my kids.

 

However, is it possible what you overheard was hyperbole, gossip, exaggerated or gossip? They seem out of statistical likelihood, extreme and unlikely - especially represented in a group like this.

 

I'm guessing it is a function of human beings adding to reality instead of reporting it.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I tried to become an involved parent when I noticed problems with my DD's public school.

I was told by the principal and the athletic director that I was the only one making complaints, that my speaking up would make DD's school life that much harder, my standards were outdated and did not reflect current attitudes and, if I pursued the issue, I would be branded a trouble maker.

 

I let it go. Much to my shame.

[msjones]

My initial reaction would be that each of them are exaggerating their story in some way, trying to 'one-up' the other moms.

If that is the case, no one is going to approach the school board based on an assumption, gossip, or a single case that has been over-blown.

 

I haven't read all the replies yet, but you took the words out of my mouth. :iagree:

[MBM]

I understand that some are committed to the public schools. But why aren't they banging down the school board members doors to report these teachers? Why does it just have to be "one of those things"?

 

They might not be doing anything because they fear retribution. Not all principals or school boards are helpful, and some even behave insidiously after an issue is addressed. I know. I once questioned a teacher's actions, and my child, then a second-grader, was the unfortunate victim for the rest of the year. It made an indelible impression on him and us. That might be one reason why the parents are reluctant to do anything.

[Impish]

There's also the thinking of, "Well, next year my child won't have the same teacher" that happens pretty commonly too. Easier to ignore than to risk your child being treated badly, or to be labeled a 'trouble maker' parent.

[Jean in Newcastle]

One comment to those who think this is exaggerated etc. Obviously this was something that was overheard and I do not know the truth of it for myself. Having been in situations like in when I was at public school, and also having seen some things similar when I was a public school teacher, I'm not necessarily surprised although I am appalled that this would be allowed to continue. So I'm not going to act on this or anything.

 

I know these women who were talking only slightly. I don't know their motivations etc. But I do know people well enough to know that this whole conversation was matter-of-fact and was not sensational at all. It was the fact that it was so matter-of-fact and not sensational that bothered me. I think what Dragon Academy said about this becoming the new cultural norms (in some cases) is unfortunately true - esp. in the older grades. I think that parents are more conservative in the younger grades.

 

I asked the question because 1. my own parents were afraid to rock the boat when I was in school - so much so that most of the time I didn't even bother to tell them about things. 2. we hear about parents complaining about the schools on this board and in real life (mostly over stuff like a mean teacher or bad math programs) and the shrugging of the shoulders is common (well - not as common with the people on this board!). I was surprised that there would be shrugs over stuff that seemed so clearly out-of-line.

 

I was not asking the question in order to bash public schools. As a tax-payer I feel like the public schools that I help to pay for should give academic excellence as well as adhere to certain moral standards in order to benefit our society since so many of the population does use them.

[OnTheBrink]

I was more alarmed by the "oh well" attitude of the parents. I hate when parents fall back on, "Well what can you do about it" and accept crap as a standard.

 

:iagree:

[mirth]

I was surprised that there would be shrugs over stuff that seemed so clearly out-of-line.

 

For some reason, your story immediately called to mind something I had read on an experiment on monkeys.

 

Something about their school or school's "conventional wisdom" has suppressed their most basic instinct to help their kids reach for the educational banana. That, and the "maybe things will be better net year" thing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

For some reason, your story immediately called to mind something I had read on an experiment on monkeys.

 

Something about their school or school's "conventional wisdom" has suppressed their most basic instinct to help their kids reach for the educational banana. That, and the "maybe things will be better net year" thing.

 

Wow - that's an interesting experiment on monkeys!

[Charles Wallace]

Parents with children in good schools will pressure the school administration to do their jobs. Parents will call the principal and say, "My daughter told me this is going on at school. What are you going to do about it?" and by golly the principal better do something, because the parents will not put up with an incompetant school administration. The principal better look at the jock's school work, and interview the matchmakers. If the teachers are guilty the prinicpal better come up with a plan to try to make things right. The principal can't say to the parents, "You don't have proof for making these accusations, therefore I don't have to listen to you. Stop slandering our school." It is the principal's job, as the supervisor of the teachers, to look into complaints.

 

...but it's the job of the teacher -- or the teachers' union -- to cry "slander" or "hostile work environment." It's a difficult line a principal has to walk.

[m0mmaBuck]

Before I pulled DS from PS I had multiple conversations with the parents of 5 parents of other children in his class who had similar issues with the teacher and the system (no gifted program until 3rd grade, extra busy work or 'sit in the reading corner' as how to deal with those who excel, 2nd graders who had met the 3rd grade 'standard' within 3 months of starting the school year, etc.). I tried going through the teacher, the principal, the school administrator, and the school board but truly got nowhere and ultimately decided the best thing for my son was to be hs'ed. The other parents "wished" they could hs but couldn't either because of jobs or their own 'patience' to handle their children and they didn't want to rock the boat at the school and make life more difficult for their kids.

[Perry]

For some reason, your story immediately called to mind something I had read on an experiment on monkeys.

 

Something about their school or school's "conventional wisdom" has suppressed their most basic instinct to help their kids reach for the educational banana. That, and the "maybe things will be better net year" thing.

 

That sure sounds urban legend-ish to me. I can't find anything except variations on the story- no reference to an actual study anywhere. One article said that a couple business professors did the study. How on earth would business professors ever get their hands on monkeys? They wouldn't have the slightest idea how to perform a primate experiment.

 

Do you happen to have a reference?

Edited February 8, 2010 by Perry

[Lovedtodeath]

See, to me and perhaps many others, this is unnecessary and impolite. Public education does not equal free daycare for all. It is not such a black and white topic. I think it comes across as very haughty , as if homeschoolers are somehow more superior.

My BF works from home and has complained to the school board that her 6 year old has to catch the bus at 7:15 AM. "That is way too early, she is getting no sleep." "Sorry, but most of the moms here would have to drop them off at daycare at that time any way. Now they just send them straight to the bus stop. They love it." So, while the issue may not be black and white, most people use the schools as a daycare and it does affect the way they run the schools.

 

The main reason I homeschool is that I don't want my DD's life to revolve around getting up at the crack of dawn, being gone all day, exhausted for her short time with her family and then going to bed while the sun is shining brightly outside. I also don't want her doing homework in her short time home from school. It doesn't have to be your whole life.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[TravelingChris]

I am more surprised that the parents had heard about these things. I can think of a few problem teachers I knew about and I also didn't tell my mother (she was a widow by that time). I think I didn't tell about the teacher who invited boys to his house for a drink because he wasn't inviting me and while I had heard the rumours, I didn't have any proof. Just lots of boys talking about it. That was in jr. high school and I didn't really make a connection with sexual abuse like I would now. I just thought that he was inappropriately inviting kids to drink with him for some strange reason. In fact, since he wasn't inviting girls, I think my thinking was that while the drinking was wrong, at least he wasn't going to come on to anybody. As I said I was like 13 and didn't really make the leap to probable grooming for sexual abuse. Then in high school, we had a few inappropriate teachers. One was a female teacher who wore see through blouses and short skirts. She also liked to hang around football players and she was a young teacher. I wouldn't have been all that surprised if there was something going on with her and some male students but this was in the late 70's early 80's and we didn't have the story of Mary Letourneau and others like that yet. Then I had a history teacher that I found creepy and overly interested. That I didn't say anything about because I found it embarassing. I just arranged not to be ever alone with him.

[KidsHappen]

When my oldest was born you went to a hospital to have them. You took then well baby checks, fed them the way the dr. told you to, put them to sleep in their own crib and got vaxes like the dr. said. When they were old enough you put them in day care and then shipped them off to school. You didn't ask questions because that was the way it was done. It's what everyone did. People didn't know they had options.

 

Then there were people like me. I have been homebirthing, breastfeeding, no vaxing, attachment parenting, co-sleeping, homeschooling since way back in the day before most people had even heard of such things and in the beginning the number one question I got on most issues was, "Can you do that?" and honestly I think it was because it never occured to people to question the way things were done because they didn't know it could be done any other way.

 

Now, things are changing and more people know of options and do things differently but there are still a lot of mainstream Americans who don't know. They are still mentally in a space where they don't know that there are options, that they can ask questions and do things differently. So they grumble and complain and just keep doing the same things they have always done. They have been conditioned.