Would these things cause red flags for you?

[OnTheBrink]

Without reading any other replies:

 

Yes, this would bother me greatly and I'd keep my child from him at all costs.

[dtb1999]

Maybe you could say that you're working on her doing.....(fill in the blank) and you decided that she'll stay with you or your husband today. It may be that there is a very innocent reason he's attracted to her. I would hope..... I wouldn't necessarily want to offend him, just have something already figured out to say....

Carrie:-)

 

I wouldn't care if I offended him. Not one bit. Obviously subtle approaches are not working with this guy. He is crossing boundaries that he has no right to cross, and he needs to get the message that it is not okay.

[Kate CA]

Okay, so at least I know I'm not exaggerating my fear now. Soooo, how to solve this problem?? So, we walk into church and he greets us and holds out his arms for her and says hello to her... what do we do? I've tried the subtle approaches but they obviously don't work. Can you think of some I've maybe not thought of???

 

This guy is **WAY** overstepping appropriate boundaries. There is **NO** way this man would hold my child ever again and it is quite likely I would tell him to his face why not. There is behavior that is questionable and there is behavior that is downright frightening. This man falls into the second category. No one should be worrying about whether he is offended - that is a nonsensical PC reaction - they should be worrying about the child involved. I am a Christian and I care about the feelings of others, but not when there is a child at stake. Worry about your child - not the possible predator.

[Scarlett]

This whole thread makes me so sad. What a sick world we live in that we have to be so on guard against people. Ugh. I totally agree that you have to do what you feel is best....but how sad that my 44 yo dh would be viewed 'weird' if he asked to hold a baby girl. But then again he wouldn't do that. Shrug. Maybe the guy in your church is super weird....the fact that he is new to the area sends off the most red flags to me.

 

FTR, my son is now 9 and I've always been super careful about whom he is with.

 

It is hard to go against the norms. Although I feel bad for the guy if he is innocent, the risk is too great.

[Kate CA]

...but how sad that my 44 yo dh would be viewed 'weird' if he asked to hold a baby girl.

 

This isn't at all the situation the OP described.

[Scarlett]

This isn't at all the situation the OP described.

 

 

Yes, you are right....but my own dh has said he is super careful about this kind of thing. I think that alone says a lot....that they guy, no matter how innocent, doesn't get normal social boundaries.

[Supertechmom]

Your gut says not to do it. Run with that.

 

There may be no "problem" with this man, but you should not let him hold your dc. You should not teach your dc to accept being held by random people. This sets your dc up to accept other things later. You need to be teaching your dc personal boundaries from the get go and this behavior over rides personal boundaries and sets your dc up for future unsafe acceptances.

 

I would try not to pass judgement on the man. He may be completely clueless. He may have had a little boy himself who died at a young age. There may be other reasons other than to cause harm that the man acts this way. BUT it is dangerous for you to allow yourself and your dc to be handled.

 

I would extend the personal boundaries to all the old ladies at church who like to touch the babies too. I know some people wouldn't, but it's about teaching the baby to recognize he should have control over his body. A very important safety lesson.

 

 

:iagree: :iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

Okay I'm going out on a limb here and am climbing into my flame/tomato repellent suit........

 

Children are NOT TROPHIES!!!!! :001_smile: They deserve the same respect you would give another adult. You wouldn't pass your spouse off in this manner?? I strongly agree with the poster above. STRONGLY AGREE. I agree! Did I say I agree? I agree! I can't say enough about teaching your children that they have rights to their bodies and NO ONE ELSE does. But that is hard to teach if they are trained to go with anyone who demands it or to let anyone touch them. They don't have the reasoning skills we do to reason out why one situation is correct but another isn't.

 

One more "biggie", we were recently at a church function and had an eating time afterwards. I purposely took my daughter and sat at the very far end of the room with her facing the wall and I fed her (because I didn't want to get his attention). Well, after he finished eating, he came to where I was sitting and held out his arms for her and said "have you eaten yet?". I said, "no". And then he said, "I'll hold her while you go eat". So, I let him have her. Well, he was holding her probably for 15 minutes, then he went outside with her to answer a cell phone call. We didn't see him go out with her, he just did it. My husband went looking for him/her, and found him outside on his cell phone still holding her. My husband reached out his arms to take her, and the guy said, "no, that's okay, I have her." My husband took her anyway and went back inside.

 

 

I would have said no, that's fine but I am used to eating with a child on my lap.

Some of the worst abusers hide behind the church. And ANYONE ANYONE who refused to give me my child when I reached for them would pick their teeth up off the floor. Even GRANDPARENTS! NO ONE has the right to even think they can say that to me. EVER. Under any circumstance. I've told off Sunday school teachers for telling me to leave because it's better for my child to cry it out and get over it than for me to remain. God forbid someone should tell me No, I've got her.

 

And my other thought is he is testing your family. He's doing the exact thing that abusers do. BE nice, see how compliant mom is, how stiff Dad is, He's testing to see what he can do and when. How observant you are, how much you notice your kids out of your sight. BEWARE! So maybe it's innocent. Maybe is all that's been said in this thread. And maybe it's not. I assure you it wouldn't be my child we found out on.

 

I am so strong on this because I have seen first hand the damage an abuser can cause teenage girls. A youth pastor here who may never leave jail alive has damaged a couple of girls that even a decade later they are living with his abuse DAILY. It affects them every. single. day. Regardless of the whys or the reasons, do not let anyone be given the chance to harm your child. The damage is too great and sometimes not fixable.

[Supertechmom]

Yes, you are right....but my own dh has said he is super careful about this kind of thing. I think that alone says a lot....that they guy, no matter how innocent, doesn't get normal social boundaries.

 

 

It's not just the guy. I don't let anyone including little girls hold my kids. I don't consider it normal social boundaries for anyone to ask to hold children older than lap babies. No one asks to hold me when I walk into church, Why would anyone ask to hold my 3 year old? i don't understand the reason you would ask in the first place. I can not come up with a single instance that it would be appropriate. And that is across the board for guys, girls, old, young and purple people eaters :p

 

We just run with the assumption that if it looks wrong at 15 then we shouldn't encourage the behavior at 3. :D

[Haiku]

Isn't it amazing how PC we've become?

 

I guess I'll be the voice of dissent, but I was sitting here thinking, "Isn't it amazing how paranoid we've become?" In this thread, this man has been accused of all sorts of terrible things, but really, all he has done is want to hold the baby.

 

Could he be some freaky psycho sexual predator? Yes. Could he just be a little clueless? Yes. Is it more likely that he's a sexual predator?

 

I guess I am surprised by the fact that he makes you uncomfortable, but yet he managed to take your child out of the church without your knowledge. I don't mean to sound accusatory, but if he makes you so uncomfortable, why weren't you watching him with your child?

 

If you don't want him to hold your daughter, tell him so, but don't build up a huge story in your mind about how dangerous he is when you don't really know. Be safe, but don't be paranoid. Do what feels right to you, but don't brand this man a deviant.

 

Tara

[LadyAberlin]

I agree with Servin. There was a girl at my church growing up that was small for her age. Everyone babied her and she would sit on men's knees, but as she got older it continued until I thought it was quite inappropriate. She was small so people didn't think of it as strange really because they didn't realize her age. I think I would tell him that you are trying to teach her personal boundaries with men especially and so you aren't allowing her to be held by men outside of the familiy any longer.

[Peek a Boo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabeline

I think you should turn around his own line on him and say "No thanks, I got her." Just keep repeating it until he stops offering. I also agree that you should talk to your pastor or some one else that you can trust about your feelings. I think you should trust your feelings and that way you can have more eyes watching him.

Good luck, I understand it is so hard to be confrontational, but in this case your daughter is worth it.

 

 

Exactly. "No, thanks, I've got her." Period. Constantly. Without fail. In addition, I wouldn't let anyone else hold her, either, because this guy might try to take her from them. Nope. Steer clear.

 

Ria

 

ITA.

with this and almost every other post.

 

You need some practical words to use and his own are PERFECT.

 

another phrase:

 

Sorry- no. We are trying to teach her to understand and respect family boundaries, so we are limiting who can and can't hold her right now. We appreciate your understanding and respect for our parental authority. :D

smile big. bat eyes innocently.

 

I would also suggest you contacting another person [probably an older guy or even a older woman: whoever will be most observant and a big talker] and ask them to stay w/ this guy like white on rice tomorrow. Call them early early. Distract the wolf. That will give your own dh a break and make the job guarding his family a bit easier.

 

Call the pastor and give him a heads-up too. He'll likely be super busy tomorrow, but he does need to know. He can't shepherd his flock effectively if the sheep don't let him know what's going on.....

[Peek a Boo]

I guess I am surprised by the fact that he makes you uncomfortable, but yet he managed to take your child out of the church without your knowledge. I don't mean to sound accusatory, but if he makes you so uncomfortable, why weren't you watching him with your child?

 

That's half of the reason it's uncomfortable.

 

Most tragedies start w/ people thinking the person is fine.

The psychology in cases like this tend to follow the same pattern:

stranger inserts self into family.

stranger sets up small scenarios to build trust w/ family.

no-longer-stranger sets up the big play [abuse, kidnapping, theft].

stranger heads out w/ family left feeling bewildered and in denial that stranger was really a Bad Guy.

 

*it is this last part that the Bad Guy is relying on to Not Get Caught.

 

Most reasonable people understand to alert a parent if they are going to take the child out of sight. Even my regular baby-holders at homeschool events do this w/o me needing to ask them. That you have a grown adult not interested in doing that is questionable. That they have been able to lull you into a false sense of security IS cause for alarm.

[gevs4him]

Would say you have a good heart and are finding it hard to say to this man - No - while he may not be a bad person and maybe he has had a hard life with one of his own children passing(you can feel for him without taking the chance with your child) - It is very scarry to think this man had the nerve to just walk out of the building with your child. One would think that he would now leave your family alone after your husband had to go get her from him, but if he does not please do not allow him to hold her - just tell him sorry I feel more comfortable keeping her with me. He should get the hint. You need to give your family more time to get to know this man and if he is a good person he will understand.

Blessings

Lisa

wife of 23 yrs. to Guy - mother to dd18 and ds6

[joannqn]

The issue here, I think, isn't that he asked to hold the child. It's that he continually seeks out the family before and after church. It's that he took the child out of the building without the parent's knowledge or permission. It's that they are having a gut reaction that makes them try to avoid him only to have him come looking for them. It's more than asking to hold the child. Someone who says hi occasionally, holds the child once or twice, who interacts with other members of the church equally wouldn't get the same reaction.

 

I think the problem that the OP is having is not that she's building up a big story and working herself up, it's that she's been conditioned to be PC and polite to the point of putting her child in danger. She came here to find out if she should be worried because she doesn't know what to do in a situation that makes her uncomfortable.

 

In this case, she definitely needs to stop worrying about being polite and keep her daughter safe in all situations, not just with this one particular person who happens to be acting in a questionable manner.

[Denisemomof4]

LISTEN TO YOUR GUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

We made a new friend through our church that quickly became like family. His wife was in NY and he was in NH and we met her at some church gatherings while she visited, and we pitied the poor lonely man while she was in NY. We invited him over for holidays when he didn't have the money to drive back to NY, and he ate meals with us several times per week, sometimes five. We felt bad for him because he missed his family, and our extended family is TINY so we welcomed him as our "family" My second born considered him family, and closer than his uncle.

 

All was well the first WEEKS, but then I silently questioned. My husband silently questioned. My best friend silently questioned.

 

This man led a BIBLE STUDY AT CHURCH. He seemed humble, loving, lonely. Our family took him in when nobody else did, as we often do. And thank GOD I remain an over protective mom. Had I thrown my kids to chance, I cringe to think of what could have easily happened.

 

He befriended the family initially, but then we found it odd that he kept wanting to take our boys out. We allowed it only once, knowing that our oldest, who was 6'2 and a red belt, would have watched over his younger brother. They were 16 and 12 at the time, and we did NOT suspect anything initially. He churched with us for a year and a half, my husband got to know him through bible study for over a year, our FAMILY befriended him during Soulfest - a HUGE 4 day concert/camp event in which 40 of us spent time together. We felt safe for that ONE time, but then we slowly started to be uncomfortable. I felt bad for distrusting someone so "nice" but dh and I and BF started to openly question him amongst ourselves.

 

God protected OUR family but another boy suffered at his hands. And our family is still scarred.

 

While the man at your church may be completely innocent, TRUST YOUR GUT. I'm SO thankful that God protected us. Initially we were so happy with our new friend, but for over a year we questioned and wondered. Thank GOD for His protection.

[Katrina]

I guess I'll be the voice of dissent, but I was sitting here thinking, "Isn't it amazing how paranoid we've become?" In this thread, this man has been accused of all sorts of terrible things, but really, all he has done is want to hold the baby.

 

Be safe, but don't be paranoid. Do what feels right to you, but don't brand this man a deviant.

 

Tara

 

I don't know Tara...I think when it comes to sexual preditors, there's no such thing as being too paranoid. Sexual abuse is much more common than people realize.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating making this man wear his own scarlet letter on his chest, but just pointing out that there may be very good reasons for the mom's concern.

 

:)

Edited April 12, 2009 by Katrina

[Peek a Boo]

The issue here, I think, isn't that he asked to hold the child. It's that he continually seeks out the family before and after church. It's that he took the child out of the building without the parent's knowledge or permission. It's that they are having a gut reaction that makes them try to avoid him only to have him come looking for them. It's more than asking to hold the child. Someone who says hi occasionally, holds the child once or twice, who interacts with other members of the church equally wouldn't get the same reaction.

 

I think the problem that the OP is having is not that she's building up a big story and working herself up, it's that she's been conditioned to be PC and polite to the point of putting her child in danger. She came here to find out if she should be worried because she doesn't know what to do in a situation that makes her uncomfortable.

 

In this case, she definitely needs to stop worrying about being polite and keep her daughter safe in all situations, not just with this one particular person who happens to be acting in a questionable manner.

:iagree:

this sounds like a very good sum up of the situation.

[Aggie]

Being married to an, ahem, "older" man:001_smile: I can pretty much assure you this is not normal social behavior. My dh is very sensitive, a great father, good with kids, is very affectionate, and has adored all ages of our dc.

 

However...it would never cross his mind to do this. Even during times of separation and him missing his family, he wouldn't do this. If a woman needed help with a child, he would fetch another woman to help because of the implications. Or in an urgent situation, he would make sure there was no hint of impropriety.

 

At the very least, I think this man's actions are a sign of *something* being wrong. It could be that he just doesn't realize how inappropriate his actions are. But not realizing that would cause concern for me.

 

And, you know, I've realized that we, who would never think of doing something horrendous, really don't expect other people in our social or family circles to do something bad. So sometimes it takes us a few minutes to realize we're not comfortable with something.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself this time, but do start being more aware of other people's contact with your family.

[at the beach]

Yes, I did actually! From the state he came from and this one too. He wasn't on it. That incident (the cell phone one) was the last interaction we had with him. So tomorrow will be the first time since then that we'll be seeing him. We're trying to work out our strategy. My husband thinks it's weird too, but honestly I don't know if he would except I've been complaining about it so much... I feel I've influenced him. I think either woman are wiser concerning these things or maybe just more paranoid, I don't know.

 

I have not read all the replies, but your comment here is really worrisome. He's from another state? So, how long has he been in this state? I know people move around but the fact that he's from someplace else and doing the stuff he's doing with your baby is very alarming to me. He walked outside with your baby?! Honestly, to me, it sounds like he could be trying to get her to be comfortable with him and seeing how easy it would be to make off with her. He could have left with your child! I would be incredibly worried that this man has targeted your child for something. I'd be so worried that I would call the police, in fact. Just because he isn't on a sex-offender list means nothing. He may be too shrewd to get caught. What does he do for a living? Where does he work? What about family? Finally, he did not immediately turn her over to your husband. Very scary, indeed.

 

Anita

Edited April 12, 2009 by Violet

[Bess]

I don't mean to sound accusatory, but if he makes you so uncomfortable, why weren't you watching him with your child?Tara

 

My husband was standing near to the man when he was holding her, I went to the bathroom and when I came back, I didn't see either of them. Then I saw my husband coming in with our daughter and he told me what happened. My husband literally walked a few feet away to grab another piece of food and when he turned around the man was gone. The outside doors were right next to where they were standing, so it's not like he was far or anything... just out of sight, and outside.

 

My husband and I discussed this last night and he will never hold her again. In fact, just to be consistant, we decided no one at church would hold her anymore. My husband will be the one to take her into church today and he will deal with telling the man (and anyone else) that we are going to hold her from now on. No excuses... that's just the way it is.

 

Oh, and for the other poster who was questioning the age thing... our daughter is two years old and very petite. Just thought I'd clarify that.

 

Also, she doesn't go to nursery or sunday school, so she is literally in our sight all the time (except the cell phone incident!).

[Pajama Mama]

I feel that honesty is the best policy in this case. I would keep dd with dh at all times. If this man asks to hold her you can just say "thanks but we have her." If he pushes the issue at all, tell him the truth.

 

Tell him that you and dh discussed the fact that you are uncomfortable with a casual acquaintance picking up your dd. You feel that by allowing him (or another) to carry her off, you are teaching her that it is alright to go off with strangers. Tell him it scared you the 20 seconds that you couldn't find her when he took her outside. Tell him it was unacceptable for him to take her out of the building. You don't have to accuse him of anything. Make it a general rule that only close family or friends may pick up dd. You are the parents. You make the rules. Period.

 

He very well may be a recently divorced dad who just misses his kids. Or maybe your dd reminds him of someone from his childhood that passed away. He may even be a single guy who wishes he had a family of his own and is lonely. But it's not your job to think of this relative stranger's feelings above the well being of your own child.

 

ETA: Today is Easter Sunday and your church will be more crowded than normal. This would be an easier day for someone to slip away to a closet or behind the church. He probably is harmless and wouldn't do such a thing but why take a chance?

 

If you do address the issue with this man directly; I think how he reacts will speak volumes. If he is understanding and feels a little awkward then he may be fine(still wouldn't allow him to pick dd up though). If he is truly upset then perhaps he is attached to your dd.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Pajama Mama

[KidsHappen]

This set off my mom radar as well so I decided to ask my hubby for a male POV. My dh is an introvert so he would never seek out any child to interact with however, he said if a toddler/preschooler seemed particularly taken with him he would think nothing of holding the child in a public place. He said this alone would not automatically give most men cause for alarm. He also said that in this day and age in our society, men should be more sensitive to this issue and be very careful of their behavior and the way it may be interpreted. The fact that this man seem obilvious might be cause for concern. Further, he agreed that no man should ever leave a parent's sight with their child without their specific permission nor should they ever be alone with a child barring an absolute emergency.

 

We have all dd and all of our dd'd friends are girls except for one. My hubby has always taken precautions to never be left alone with other girls even if all of my girls are present. This means he doesn't drive the girls and their friends anywhere without another adult, the girls can not have sleep overs or play dates even if the teens are home without mom present, etc. He used to work in HR and he realizes that even if a man is completely innocent, he needs to protect himself and his family by never being alone in a situation that has any potential for misunderstanding or misinterpretation. He said that most other adults of our generationa and younger should know this as well. So his overall conclusion was that while the holding itself may not be a cause for alarm the lack of judgement would be.

 

Furthermore, if the interactions make the parent uncomfortable then they should be able to discourage it and any man with half a brain should be able to understand this and react accordingly without taking it personally. It is your child and you should not feel bad about raising them in according to the dictates of your conscience without having to explain your actions to other people. I personally would do as Ria said and use his own words to discourage further interaction. No need for long drawn out discussions or explanations. A simple, "It's ok, I have her", repeated as frequently as needed until he gets the message. SHould he not get the message after a few time then perhaps a statement to the effect that you are trying to teach her not to go to non-family members, you are sure he understands should do the trick. This could be said politely and would be considered within the bounds of perfectly acceptable social interactions. If he has a problem with it then I would start to believe that you have a more serious situation on your hands and react accordingly. Good luck dealing with this. I hope all goes smoothly.

[2cents]

Yikes! Reading this thread is setting off alarm bells! When I read about your senario I got dizzy with dread. There are too many reasons to be cautious:

1. He is new and out of state.

2. He pinpoints your family.

3. He is focused on your child and is equally disinterested in the other people and children.

4. He took your child outside!

5. You know NOTHING about this man or his history.

6. Not having a record only mean he may not have been caught yet.

 

I could go on but this is probably enough. You MUST trust your instinct and give serious consideration to those who have posted their concerns. This sounds like 'grooming' behavior and he is testing the child AND YOU. If you are wishy-washy and 'nice' he will take it to the next level.

STOP this now. Never allow him to be alone with your children and make sure if you leave your children in church daycare that ONLY YOU or your DH are allowed to pick-up on remove the children. Make it clear to this man that he has raised your radar. Teach the children about stranger danger and that even if you greet the man and know the man in church-he is still a stranger. This is a gray area for children and you need to carefully explain this to them.

 

PLEASE don't let the fact that we have become a suspicious society make you feel guilty. You cannot change what the world has become. This is the reality-like it or not.

[Catwoman]

Yikes! Reading this thread is setting off alarm bells! When I read about your senario I got dizzy with dread. There are too many reasons to be cautious:

1. He is new and out of state.

2. He pinpoints your family.

3. He is focused on your child and is equally disinterested in the other people and children.

4. He took your child outside!

5. You know NOTHING about this man or his history.

6. Not having a record only mean he may not have been caught yet.

 

I could go on but this is probably enough. You MUST trust your instinct and give serious consideration to those who have posted their concerns. This sounds like 'grooming' behavior and he is testing the child AND YOU. If you are wishy-washy and 'nice' he will take it to the next level.

STOP this now. Never allow him to be alone with your children and make sure if you leave your children in church daycare that ONLY YOU or your DH are allowed to pick-up on remove the children. Make it clear to this man that he has raised your radar. Teach the children about stranger danger and that even if you greet the man and know the man in church-he is still a stranger. This is a gray area for children and you need to carefully explain this to them.

 

PLEASE don't let the fact that we have become a suspicious society make you feel guilty. You cannot change what the world has become. This is the reality-like it or not.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I think it may be important for your dh to let this guy know, in no uncertain terms, that his behavior strikes you as odd, and you don't want him around your dd anymore. I think he needs to know that you've got your eye on him, because this guy seems like he could be dangerous. How many times have we read in the papers about a man sneaking into a child's room late at night -- and the child doesn't scream because she knows the man (former household employee, handyman, overly friendly neighbor...) The idea that he took her outside seems like he may have been testing to see how much he could get away with, and for how long. This time, he made sure he was on the phone, but if no one came looking for 15 minutes, he would have known that next time could be a good opportunity for something a lot less innocent.

 

I find it frightening that this person seems fixated on your dd, and I would tell every friend at church, as well as the pastor, what's been going on, and that something about this man makes you and your dh very nervous. This way, others will watch him, too.

 

I know there could be an innocent explanation for all of this, but I can't think of anything plausible enough to allow any contact between this man and your family. Also, try to get all of the details about the car he drives, so you can watch for his car in your neighborhood. You really can't be too careful. This man may have talked with enough people at church to know when your dh is and isn't at home, where you live, what your habits are, etc.

 

One last thing -- you might want to contact your local police and ask to speak with the detective who deals with these types of concerns, and run the situation by him to see what he (or she) thinks about whether or not this man could be dangerous. I'm not suggesting that you file any sort of complaint, as nothing has happened, but perhaps a "professional" viewpoint would help put this into perspective. The police may also have some good safety suggestions for you.

 

Sorry to scare you, but there are just too many frightening stories on the news about crazy people who "seemed so nice," and turned out to be evil. I'm particularly concerned because this guy has homed in on only one child - yours - and that is just creepy to me. I'm so glad you and your dh were intuitive enough to realize that there could be a real problem here.

 

Cat

[emzhengjiu]

You might read a book called The Gift of Fear. It's suppose to be a very good reminder that we have survival responses built in so to speak. I have it on reserve at the library but haven't read it yet. My daughters and I were visiting a friend in a local hospital when a fire broke out. As soon as I smelled smoke but before the fire alarm sounded, I mentioned we had to evacuate immediately. Seconds later I heard myself saying that it was probably nothing. We did evacuate but I felt funny going down 9 flights of stairs thinking I was probably over-reacting. Thankfully the fire was small and contained quickly but that might not have been the case. Afterwards another visitor told me about this book. Many of us tend to delay taking action because we really don't want to believe the worse could happen. In the case of your daughter, you have alarms sounding. Listen to them! The worse that could happen is this man could be offended. But if you don't listen to them, the worse case could be unthinkable.

 

Blessings,

Judy

[Mesa]

I agree with everyone else... and you. I will use this as a little reminder to myself to never let my kids be held, (or go off alone, if they are older) people we dont know. We live in a small town so the people we "know" have been our friends for many many years.

What a scary scary reminder.

[stripe]

It's not just the guy. I don't let anyone including little girls hold my kids. I don't consider it normal social boundaries for anyone to ask to hold children older than lap babies. No one asks to hold me when I walk into church, Why would anyone ask to hold my 3 year old?

I disagree -- but I see your point. I don't let strangers hold my kids, but relatives have held my 2 or 3 year olds, but more to help me out, carry them when they're tired, comfort them, and that sort of thing.

 

I think it's a case of erring on the side of caution. If you don't want him holding your child, you're under no obligation to do so. If something about him seems "off," you have the right to refuse. Your job is to protect your daughter. You've gotten good advice about what to say from previous posters if you decide to start refusing (which I think you should do).

[Bess]

Thanks again for all who have replied. It helps to bounce these things off other mommies.

 

Okay, so my husband held her today as planned. The first encounter with the guy was my dh running into him in the hallway. "Jim" says to our daughter upon seeing them, "hi there, come to Jim?". My dh replied, "no that's okay, I'm going to hold onto her." Jim says to my daughter, "okay, well, I'll get to hold you in the near future then." After that my dh said he had to go find me and left.

 

My dh doesn't think Jim's reaction is weird, but I definitely think it is. I mean, he was addressing our daughter, not my dh, and keeping the option of holding her open for the future. I wish my dh said something about him *never* holding her again, but it is what it is. He won't ever be holding her again, but it irks me that he said that and I think it's manipulating type of behavior... as if he and our dd have this special "relationship" or something. Know what I mean??? But again...maybe I'm just exaggerating.

 

My dh said he will talk to the leaders at the church and tell them that we've had uncomfortable feelings about him. If nothing else, they will watch him more closely and hopefully never allow him to work with the children of the church in any capacity.

 

It will be interesting to see, once he realizes he will never have the option of holding our dd again, if he attaches to another family. At least now, he'll have lots of eyes on him if so.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Bess

[brehon]

Thanks again for all who have replied. It helps to bounce these things off other mommies.

 

Okay, so my husband held her today as planned. The first encounter with the guy was my dh running into him in the hallway. "Jim" says to our daughter upon seeing them, "hi there, come to Jim?". My dh replied, "no that's okay, I'm going to hold onto her." Jim says to my daughter, "okay, well, I'll get to hold you in the near future then." After that my dh said he had to go find me and left.

 

My dh doesn't think Jim's reaction is weird, but I definitely think it is. I mean, he was addressing our daughter, not my dh, and keeping the option of holding her open for the future. I wish my dh said something about him *never* holding her again, but it is what it is. He won't ever be holding her again, but it irks me that he said that and I think it's manipulating type of behavior... as if he and our dd have this special "relationship" or something. Know what I mean??? But again...maybe I'm just exaggerating.

 

Yes! His reaction was weird. Trust yourself.

 

My dh said he will talk to the leaders at the church and tell them that we've had uncomfortable feelings about him. If nothing else, they will watch him more closely and hopefully never allow him to work with the children of the church in any capacity.

 

It will be interesting to see, once he realizes he will never have the option of holding our dd again, if he attaches to another family. At least now, he'll have lots of eyes on him if so.

 

First of all, good for you and dh coming to an agreement and sticking to it! Second, I'll echo and repeat what others have said -- please read The Gift of Fear and Protecting the Gift (both by Gavin de Becker). I actually preferred Protecting the Gift. And then have your dh read it. Yes, it's that important. It will truly open your eyes. I won't pretend to know what this guy's motivations are (and I frankly don't care); I know that if my instincts were screaming to me that *something* (even if I couldn't define it) was not quite right, I would heed them. Please don't make the mistake of discounting your feelings...you're not exaggerating; you're not overreacting; you're not being paranoid. You are doing everything in your power to protect your innocent children.

 

Please, please read (or listen on audiobooks to) these books. Now. Reserve them at your library or just go to your favorite book store and buy them. Never be afraid of empowering yourself. Good luck!

 

 

 

Read the books. :)

[phathui5]

Many other posters have said it, but get yourself a copy of Protecting the Gift by Gavin DeBecker.

[Bess]

 

Please, please read (or listen on audiobooks to) these books. Now. Reserve them at your library or just go to your favorite book store and buy them. Never be afraid of empowering yourself. Good luck!

 

 

 

Read the books. :)

 

I actually did order it off Amazon yesterday (protecting the gift). What is ironic is we are extremely protective of our children in general... for instance, we don't do nursery, sunday school, no babysitters except for two that we trust, no sleepovers even at grandparent's house! We even have an "open door" policy at our house if friends are over playing. I mean, most people would say we are overprotective, and yet we found ourselves in this position with this man.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Bess

[brehon]

I actually did order it off Amazon yesterday (protecting the gift). What is ironic is we are extremely protective of our children in general... for instance, we don't do nursery, sunday school, no babysitters except for two that we trust, no sleepovers even at grandparent's house! We even have an "open door" policy at our house if friends are over playing. I mean, most people would say we are overprotective, and yet we found ourselves in this position with this man.

 

Oh, I'm so glad you've taken this additional positive action! See, that's the thing with molesters (and I'm *not* saying "Jim" is one, by the by) -- they are past masters at insinuating themselves into the family unit/structure and almost nothing they do (at least initially) is "bad" (in the criminal sense of the word). They simply wear down one's instinctive defenses and boundaries until all that's left is hindsight, bewilderment ("he was so nice"), trauma, and regret. And, generally, the family doesn't even realize it's happening. Major kudos to you (and your dh) for paying attention to and heeding your feelings. Keep up the good work! Also, never feel as if you have to defend your feelings/instincts/reasons for keeping your kids from this man to anyone (even your church leadership should they give you any grief over this).

 

And do make sure your dh reads the book as well. Mine was reluctant -- I kept insisting until he read it just to stop my nagging. He told me afterwards that he was incredibly glad I made him read it -- it made him more aware of things he hadn't thought of before. I've even recommended this book to the firefighters in my station. Again, they were initially reluctant, but all of them have now either read or listened to the book and had their spouses read it.

[Maria/ME]

Great advice here...and I think that you've handled the situation wonderfully. Huge Gavin DeBecker fans here and I stopped making excuses and trusted myself more after reading his books. Not just for my sake, but my daughters. I have also been able to help her learn to trust her gut.

 

A few thoughts that have been mentioned....but figured worth repeating.

 

Any human in their right mind, especially in this day and age, should get cues from parents. For example, my husband loves kids, but would ask "Can I hold her?" If the mom said no or felt uncomfortable he would pick up on that and RESPECT it immediately. No questions asked. People who do NOT respect that whether male or female need to be repeatedly told the boundaries. It does not matter if they are just socially unaware or a threat. Either way, we should not feel apologetic for setting boundaries that they should respect. I just recently explained to my daughter no matter how HURT a person is, you say NO. Honest people should not be offended by boundaries, anyway.

 

His behavior toward your husband was VERY manipulative. He was leaving a way open, that had clearly been closed. Another red flag.

 

Be prepared for others NOT to agree with you in your assessment. You may get flak from this. Others may truly like this guy and sympathize with him. Be prepared to stand your ground. We are trained to be polite and make excuses. And I don't care WHAT his "backstory" is, if you have a gut feeling then go with it. No apologies. What's the worst that is going to happen? You'll hurt his feelings. It doesn't feel good to hurt others, but when it comes to protection there are no others feelings. There is only protection.

 

I base these strong feelings not only on the DeBecker books I read, but on personal experience. I knew a man in my teen years who set off NO red flags to me at that age. He groomed. When it didn't work he moved on. He manipulated parents and children alike. My dad would never let me alone with him. My dad had a gut feeling. My dad covered all bases. I resented this in a big way as a teen. This guy had a GREAT reputation and was loved by all. Fast forward 8 years. My best friend and her sister (among others) were molested repeatedly by him. Their family will never be the same. He has NO public record. He was never charged. I imagine there are more people like that than not. I am only glad I knew him in that I now know what a predator looks like. That is to say they look like everyone else...but it's the gut you have to go with.

 

I think you're on the right track, and I'm glad you and your husband are on the same page!

 

ETA: This has brought up a conversation on the subject between our family of three (dh, and dd11). My husband was appalled at this man's behaviour and said he doesn't care WHO it is or what the situation is NEVER trust anyone. When it comes to protection Guilty until proven innocent. Sorry, he says, it's a terrible world we live in, but family safety is paramount. This guy may be fine, and when you feel deep inside he is, then wonderful. He can be part of your family. My dh also stated that ANYONE who is a decent human being will RESPECT boundaries and social cues. No questions asked. Meanwhile, we've had a great conversation with our dd on trusting instincts!

Edited April 13, 2009 by Maria/ME

[KayT]

I just read most of this thread and it has left me sick to my stomach!!!

 

I really hope that you and dh will please talk to those in charge at the church, others need to be made aware.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that you and your husband have done well. I hope that you continue to stand firm on this. If he were just a nice man who was drawn to your daughter in a honorable uncle sort of way - he should know that there are more ways that he could interact with her even at that age than holding her. Even with Dad or Mom doing the holding you can play peek-a-boo or other silly play. The focus on holding seems off to me.

[OnTheBrink]

You know, it might have been for the best that your dh wasn't confrontational with "Jim". Since you really don't know this man and you're not sure what he's capable of and he already gives you the creeps (and in my mind, rightly so), it may be best, at this point, not to do anything to set him off.

 

Today at church, I watched the men, especially the older ones, and not ONE was holding a child not of his own family. There are close families in my church and it wouldn't appear odd at all if one daddy was holding another daddy's child for a second, but I never observed that. I just don't think it's a natural, normal occurrence for a man to actively seek out a child to hold, especially to actively seek out a specific child to hold when that man really has no relationship with the parents. It's not un "pc", it's not "paranoid". It's not NATURAL. PERIOD.

 

Good for you for setting a plan with your dh and sticking to it. I hope you guys can get to the bottom of what the deal is with "Jim". And I hope it's all a huge misunderstanding and he's just fine and not trying to get to your daughter in a sinister way. But, honestly, I have doubts his intentions are honorable. JMO.

[FO4UR]

Big huge RED flags!!!!!:iagree:

 

You are not paranoid!

 

You and dh MUST MUST MUST talk with the pastor about this!!!

 

We had a strange guy come into our church not long ago, and he tried hanging out in the preschool/nursery wing. Parents alerted the pastor and nursery director, and there was a guy assigned to literally follow him around (didn't tell the guy). This guy would get up in the middle of a service - There was another guy assigned to patrol the nursery hallway - simply to tell him he had to leave, and make sure he did. Oddly, I haven't seen him around in a few months.

 

The fact is, if this guy is what we all think he sounds like he is, then he will see that he can't have your dd and move on to another child to victimize! The pastor needs a heads up on this so he can protect the entire congregation, as much as he can.

 

I would throw any feeling about being "rude" out the window and say in no uncertain terms that he cannot hold your dd at all -EVER! If he pushes the issue, say plainly that his behavior is suspicious. Bad guys are afraid of getting caught! (and that's something I've taught my dc ....that bad guys are always afraid of getting caught....and that they should never, EVER EVER go anywhere alone with someone besides mom and dad (even at church)....of course your 2yo dd is too young to understand all that -which might just make her a perfect target!!!)

 

Churches are magnets for creepo's, unfortunately. Said by a seminary wife who is very watchful....

 

Lifting your family and this whole situation up in prayer!:grouphug:

 

ETA: My dh is not quite 40, but he would never just ask to hold someone else's kid. He would bend down and shake hands, talk, even ruffle their hair - he would never pick the child though. With the rare exception of the child being hurt/crying at a distance from the parents-and then he would march promptly to mom or dad to hand said child off! LOL

 

One more thing: if my dh saw a mother eating and caring for a baby - he'd offer to get her a drink, grab her a napkin, etc...not take the baby. That incident with him taking her outside was imo SCARY and OBVIOUS!

Edited April 13, 2009 by 3blessingmom

[Guest janainaz]

It's really sad that our society lives in fear, but it's understandable.

 

Before you rule him out as a psycho (which is a real possibility) - at least take the time to talk with him and get to know him. I had a strange Indian man come up to me at church when our son was a baby and ask if he could "carry" my child. He became one of our best friends and his intentions were 100% pure. We actually got to know him and before long, he and his new wife were at our house every week eating dinner and watching American Idol - they were like family. When we met him his fiance was living in New York, so there wasn't a female around to soften the outlook on the original meeting. Just some random guy asking to hold my baby (and the baby was strapped in the baby carrier).

 

Anyway, point is ................. you just never know, but I'd lean on the side of caution, but with puposeful intention to get to know more about him. Maybe he's a really nice guy and maybe he's a creep who does not belong hanging around church. One way or the other, being bold will help you find out.

[Vida Winter]

I actually did order it off Amazon yesterday (protecting the gift). What is ironic is we are extremely protective of our children in general... for instance, we don't do nursery, sunday school, no babysitters except for two that we trust, no sleepovers even at grandparent's house! We even have an "open door" policy at our house if friends are over playing. I mean, most people would say we are overprotective, and yet we found ourselves in this position with this man.

 

Good for you. This book should be read by every single parent. It will help give you the strength to do what you need to.

 

:grouphug:

[Aubrey]

1. Leadership NEEDS to know about this. They can help watch to see whether he moves on to someone else or not. They've (hopefully) got training on how to deal w/ this.

 

2. The timing on taking your dd outside--it's virtually impossible that that was coincidence. Absolutely grooming to see how far he could get before you'd notice.

 

3. The people I know who were molested as children were all victimized with other people around. It only takes a few minutes in another room.

 

ETA: Dh wants me to add that iho, this guy is w/out a doubt a predator. Fwiw, in our church, we've got male friends (one who's older) who talk to our dd (almost 2), hold her, etc. There's a difference between creepy & not.

[Karen sn]

My husband reached out his arms to take her, and the guy said, "no, that's okay, I have her."

 

Ummmmmm....

Not anymore you don't.

Pervert.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Karen sn

[Karen sn]

Sorry- no. We are trying to teach her to understand and respect family boundaries, so we are limiting who can and can't hold her right now. We appreciate your understanding and respect for our parental authority. :D

smile big. bat eyes innocently.

 

 

 

Yes - if he doesn't get that, he is up to no good or socially inept.

Either way, someone you don't have to please.

[ConnieB]

I agree with all the replies here -- stand your ground. I also wanted to suggest that even though you may have searched some sex offender databases, you may not know exactly what this man's aliases are and/or exactly what states he may have had any previous convictions. (I'm a criminal lawyer who deals with these types of cases all the time.) Go with your instincts -- it is always better to be safe than sorry. There is no need to apologize to anyone for protecting your child.

 

 

:iagree: Plus, keep in mind that you don't know that the name he is using now is really his name. Criminals have a habit of making up names to escape their past.

 

 

My big concern would also be that your daughter is starting to see this man as someone to trust. As a toddler is too young to explain stranger-danger the chances that she'd not whimper or cry if he tried to leave with her is very high. It sounds like she didn't cry out for Mommy when he took her out of the building, and that would definitely worry me. While the cell phone call could have been completely innocent also, my experience is that it's one of those testing the envelope scenarios. I also can't imagine any reason to want to keep holding a child while you're on the phone....even as the child's parent, I would welcome my spouse taking the child so I could finish the call. Very strange indeed.

 

And I also heartily agree with the others who said that once you assert yourself please please watch that he doesn't turn his attention to another child. Your mommy instinct is working wonderfully, but some parents ignore their instincts and later regret it immensely.

 

Most child molestors will first become friends with the child and family.....gain their trust and their friendship. It makes the ability to abuse for long periods of time much easier than a kidnap to abuse situation. In the latter the risk of discovery is greater because there is no excuse for being with the child. In the case of "friends" someday it may not seem odd for him to take her to the zoo, playground, etc. And that is where the abuse time is found. And children who trust an adult usually trust them when they tell the child "it's our secret". And almost every time that a "friend" is accused of abuse the parents are stunned because they never thought the "friend" would do such things. They are experts at manipulation and gaining trust.

 

I'm sorry that you have to deal with such a horrible situation. A child's safety is such a scary to thing to have compromised! :grouphug:

[Ottakee]

I would certainly let the church leadership know of this situation and have them help monitor it.

 

Another way (in addition to the above) is to have the MEN of the church become involved with this guy. Have the MEN meet with him for coffee, a meal, Bible Study, a sporting event, etc. Have the MEN get to know him better and involve him in activities. Over time, it would likely become VERY clear what this man is about. They could even discuss in general terms about the church's policy of watching out for the kids, protecting them, etc. If the guy becomes very involved in normal activites for his age then maybe things aren't as concerning (but people I don't know well don't hold my kids--and never out of my sight) but if he decides to switch churches, etc. then likely your gut instinct was correct.

[Jackie in NE]

Okay, so at least I know I'm not exaggerating my fear now. Soooo, how to solve this problem?? So, we walk into church and he greets us and holds out his arms for her and says hello to her... what do we do? I've tried the subtle approaches but they obviously don't work. Can you think of some I've maybe not thought of???

 

He would step between the guy and me, and simply look him in the eye and say "no". And if the guy resisted, he would tell him again, "no, now move along".

 

Our husbands are our protectors. If you are uncomfortable with this guy, keep your child away from him. It sounds like it's gone on long enough. His behavior is inappropriate, to say the least

[KristenS]

There's a guy in our church who holds kids all the time. He's a father ... his boys are teens now .. and he helps in Sunday School, in the nursery, in Children's Church. The bigger kids adore him and even the babies seem to like him. His wife is our children's minister, so I would assume that she either already did a background check or assumed he didn't need one. (We're all supposed to have them but with the volunteer shortage I would bet not everyone has. I did because I worked for our preschool for a time.)

 

He's a great guy, but every now and then I wonder why on earth he's involved with the kids so much. Maybe it's just a family calling for them ... they would've had more kids except for some maternal health issues.

 

Reading this thread makes me start questioning him, and I hate feeling that way.

 

But I TOTALLY agree that you can't be too careful with kids in protecting them.

 

There was a situation some years back in our church, before I was married, and a young man began attending. I naively gave the guy a ride home once when I realized he had walked. (Yes, stupid, stupid, I know!) Anyway, after he'd been coming for a few weeks, an older woman (my mom's age) came up to me and said she thought she knew who he was, that he'd been kicked out of another church for some unsavory things. She was watching out for me. My boyfriend stepped up and was very protective for a time, and eventually he stopped attending.

 

A few years later he came back. And we kept bumping into him at other places, like the grocery store. You know someone is creepy when you're obviously pregnant and they say, "Well, if you ever need somebody..."

 

When he started regularly attending my Sunday School class again (at which I suddenly decided nursing in public was no longer an option!), my teacher the associate pastor had a talk with our senior, and big burly male, pastor. That pastor went on a home visit to 'establish some boundaries' and the guy never came back.

 

Apparently they were reading cues even I had missed ... like he'd always ask about me if I missed church, things like that. He had an obsession and it was scary. But to anyone else, he would've just looked socially inept ... he was focused on me, not anyone else.

 

We've since moved a few streets away, so we don't bump into him anymore, and he hasn't come back to our church. I hate being responsible for chasing someone away from a church ... but I am so glad that our pastors felt my safety was worth watching out for (they did all that before telling me about it).

[Tammyla]

No. thank. you. no. I'd tell him that with no explanation, stress or worry about sounding nice or guilt. Big. red. mom. waving. flag! Predators aren't worth the stress over sounding nice, and he is using your consideration of his feelings. Truly if he is just too nice and still this clueless at his age, well tough luck in my book...

Speak to a church elder or someone in the office if you or your dh are inclined. I agree with the other voices in this thread don't ignore your mommy warning.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Tammyla

[Murphy101]

My husband reached out his arms to take her, and the guy said, "no, that's okay, I have her." My husband took her anyway and went back inside.

 

 

wow. my dh is pretty laid back and that would not have gone well.

 

didn't read all replies, but want to note that the biggest thing going for predators is social nicities. They count on people bieng too polite to make a scene or use strong language or offend or get embarrassed or get invovled. They. count. on. it.

 

It stricks me as NOT coinincidence that this man is targeting the dd of a an obviously non-confrontational woman.

 

I would take the gloves off.

If you are having a hard time being blunt or adament, just imagine the sick feeling in your stomache if you found out in a year you were right.

 

I wouldn't be polite about it at all. YOu don't owe him an explaination at all. And try not to go off by yourself. Sit with hubby or other couples. Always be sure another man is around. A woman might blow you off as being too worried, but amost men are going to know the guy ain't quite right in the head.

[Pajama Mama]

Yes, listen to those instincts. When I was in college and on break, I was housesitting with a friend. I didn't have a car and needed to walk to work. As I was walking, a nice middle aged man, in a nice middle income car, stopped and offered me a ride. I knew it was wrong to accept but work was fairly far away. I got in and immediately alarms were going off in my head. How he looked at me, the seemingly harmless questions-it just felt off. We drove a few blocks and I asked him to let me out. He kept driving and I got loud and insisted. We were in a suburb area so he had to drive slowly. I started to open the car door. He finally stopped and said "fine." When I looked at his face I realized how scary he looked. How did I think this guy was "nice"? As I left the car he pinched my butt and winked at me when I turned around. He did not look happy. He was angry that I was getting out. I was ticked that he grabbed my derriere but I just took off. His car loitered for a few minutes and then sped off. I walked to work really fast and was shaking the whole time. I never told my mom about it because she would have killed me for accepting the ride. I do think that this man might have hurt me if he had be able to get me to another area. I saw it in his face. But he seemed harmless and friendly at first. You just never know. Please trust your instincts. Please trust your instincts. Please trust your instincts.

[stripe]

My husband was at a party or something and overheard the father of a seemingly shy little boy saying that if someone gave the boy candy, he'd be their friend. My husband almost threw up -- he couldn't believe someone would be so clueless.