Male perspective on work/money/economy?

[Carrie12345]

We all talk from women’s perspectives about these things and, even with differences, cover mostly the same points.

The other night, I was with friends and they were talking about the importance of raising girls who can financially take care of themselves and potential children. While I don’t disagree with them, I didn’t have much to add as a long-time sahm/w. I mentioned the conversation to dh, and he was like, “You could support yourself just fine!”

So, I love that he knows I have plenty of grit and am smart enough to learn almost everything (not calculus, physics, or how to cook a nice fish,) but I’m a non-degreed mom out of the entire workforce for more than two decades. He’s delusional.

In general, is this a common male perspective, or just a rare, nutty one?

(For the record, I’d be fine NOW, after securing the benefits of HIS income. But the conversation was about earlier in life, and I jumped with no parachute, lol.)

It did make me think of how Dave Ramsey has zero idea about today’s cost of living.

[SKL]

Can't speak for men, but I don't know any dads who didn't intend for their daughters to develop marketable skills by young adulthood.

I do think there's a reluctance to believe that guys have a subtle advantage in terms of what wages / salaries they can command.  This is such a complex issue that I don't fully understand it myself, but I know it's there.

[teachermom2834]

I’ve been nothing but a SAHM even though I do have a degree (that’s now totally obsolete almost 30 years later having never been used). 
 

When we talk about what I will do when last graduates (in 2 years 😬) he mentions jobs at his employer that he thinks I would be good at. While I might be capable there is no way I could ever be hired for those positions having nothing on my resume but homeschool mom and now I am not even that. It is nonsensical. It’s like he remembers when we met and we were in college and both smart and equals and he forgets he has been building a career all this time (and getting more degrees) and I have been doing nothing but raising a family. I appreciate the sentiment but he is delusional. I can’t even figure out the latest Word updates. 
 

I also handle all the financial stuff so he really doesn’t know what things cost either. I know he needs to be more involved in case something happens to me but he likes his head in the sand. So between his ignorance of what things cost and his delusions about my ability to make lots of money we are on much different pages on all of that. 

[JustEm]

Do you have a good support system outside of your dh?  Because if that is the case and was the case in the past you likely could support yourself just fine.  It would potentially be a lot of work but I'm sure you could do it.  Even without a degree, from what I know of you from this forum, you are well educated and likely work well in tough situations.

But that is just you.  I do personally know a few SAHM/W that would likely not survive particularly well on their own, even those that did manage to get a college degree.  They simply don't have what it takes in my opinion.  I know this because I've been privy to how they handle other difficult situations in their lives.

 

[fairfarmhand]

I think it's more possible for women with no children.  Because just me by myself, I could secure a dumpy apartment in a not so safe area and work at Lowes or something and barely get by. I'd have to hope that other opportunities would come along because I have no retirement apart from him and would be scrambling at age 44 to make things happen so if I had a medical event I could someday retire. If my health were to stay good though, I would probably need to work until I fell over.

Women with children WILL struggle though. Between day care and just the energy required for parenting alone, it's a LOT, especially if one does not have extended family support. 

I don't know if my dh realizes that or not. He does see a ton of openings for "Warm bodies who work hard, show up on time, and don't take drugs" at his workplace and these are decent jobs with good benefits and if you can work for 25-30 years a pension. However, many of them have physical requirements that I don't think I could do. And the starting pay is still going to be very tight for making rent.

Maybe the customer service aspect, answering the phone?

I think that a single lady, no kids, no degree in her 40s or 50s could, after a few years finally reach stability and a life where she didn't have to agonize over every penny. But it would be pretty tough for a few years until she managed to "prove herself" and get some resume experience. 

 

 

[Arcadia]

8 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

The other night, I was with friends and they were talking about the importance of raising girls who can financially take care of themselves and potential children.

It is normal in my family of origin for both paternal and maternal side. My grandparents have seen guys (and MILs) that are financially controlling and have also have relatives who cheated. So it make sense to them for their daughters and granddaughters to have financial stability of their own just in case. 

I have a cousin who is always unfaithful and he would be considered a upper middle class businessman (self employed). My side of the family help the ex-wife with legal fees so that he doesn’t leave her high and dry. My friend’s ex-husband is similar and her family gave her money to help with divorce legal fees. Both women do work but earned much less than their ex. 
 

My MIL was married in to help in her in-laws shop and to do housework. FIL was very stingy with grocery money. MIL had an elementary school education and when the family shop didn’t need her help anymore, she worked fast food. Retail work where I am from prefers students with high school diploma, same for manufacturing work. 

[Carol in Cal.]

The entire premise of most of the family court system is that most women should be able to start from scratch after a divorce with just a little transitional support from their STBX husband for 'retraining' or 'reentry'.  The guy walks off with his accumulated experience base and usually half or almost half of the marital assets and the woman walks off into an apartment  with a low paying job that she will never be able to afford to retire from.  Yeah, delusional.  That's our system.

[scholastica]

Are you asking are most working men clueless about what it takes to make enough money to live on? If they aren’t handling day to day finances and have been in the workforce for a while, they probably have less knowledge about that. I don’t think that’s a male problem necessarily, though. Plenty of women think they could just go back to work tomorrow at a good salary after being out of the workforce a while, and they can’t. I have a friend who has an MSW whose first job back into the workforce after 15 years at home  was overnight aid at a women’s shelter. It took a while before she was in the caseworker position she was educated for. She could not have supported herself in the first, barely in the second. She has a dh in a lucrative career and doesn’t have to work. Her coworkers at the aid level were barely above the level of the women in the homeless shelter. She knew going back to work that she wouldn’t be making enough to support herself, but that wasn’t her reason for going back.

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Are you asking are most working men clueless about what it takes to make enough money to live on? If they aren’t handling day to day finances and have been in the workforce for a while, they probably have less knowledge about that. I don’t think that’s a male problem necessarily, though. Plenty of women think they could just go back to work tomorrow at a good salary after being out of the workforce a while, and they can’t. 

Yes, what money to live on is, and what it takes to get hired for that.

[Carrie12345]

7 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

It is normal in my family of origin for both paternal and maternal side. My grandparents have seen guys (and MILs) that are financially controlling and have also have relatives who cheated. So it make sense to them for their daughters and granddaughters to have financial stability of their own just in case. 

No arguments from me! I have 2 girls, and my own deadbeat father. I just found dh’s take to be rather astonishing.

[SKL]

So when a couple decides to be single-earner, it should be a requirement that they put aside money for that transition period should the stay-at-home spouse suddenly be alone.  Being able to afford to be a single-earner couple should mean being able to pay all the bills AND provide such a fund.

None of my business, but I'd recommend that everyone be at least working part-time in order to have some sort of resume in case it's needed.  Even if it means being the unpaid treasurer of a nonprofit or whatever.  I'd also recommend that everyone who's not employed full-time keep pursuing "certifications" to show they're up-to-date on current work technologies etc.

As for the male part in all of this, men need to understand why this is needed, regardless of how great of a provider they may be.

[Faith-manor]

I think for men who have been regularly employed their entire adult lives and have never had to claw hard to get a job as a male, much less with the issues of discrimination, they can be quite clueless how it really is for women getting back into the work force after a break. They don't realize due to gestation, lactation, etc. the resume gap falls disproportionately on women. We also often end up being saddled with the family elderly care because A. men see women as the care givers and nurturers so it doesn't occur to them to take time off to do this themselves B. the wage disparity often means if a couple/family is going to lose an income due to care giving, 9 times out of 10, they keep the highest salary, the man. I don't believe men are being deliberately obtuse, they just don't think about it, and do not experience it enough in their circle to hear what it is like. Very few Toms and Joes in their workplace and social group are saying, "Hey, I have to take a break in order to care for mom, and I am really worried what this means for my career." Or, "Little Festus has to have surgery and a long recovery, and I will be taking family leave from my job. My boss is not happy, and I am very concerned about how I am going to get a comparable job when Festus goes back to school."

Add to this that when there is a divorce, women's income falls 20-50% while on average, men's rise 30%. They just are ignorant of what the work income world is like for women.

Here is an article from 2017 based on a University of Michigan Consumer study. Men consistently see the economy has much rosier than women do. There are a variety of factors, but the fact that we have to worry so much about gaps in our resumes, choices between care giving and not, making on average 18c on the dollar less than men, and if they have taken time off for care giving, gaps in the resume.

https://www.marketplace.org/2017/04/25/why-women-and-men-view-economy-differently/

Edited January 25 by Faith-manor

[Katy]

My DH had NO clue what things cost post-pandemic. When I put the kids in school and we had round after round of illness he started running more errands & was totally shocked that the “sale” price of our most frequently purchased items was 3 times the pre-pandemic non-sale price. He’s not naive, we’d just gotten into a pattern of me running errands in the form of curbside pickup or online orders so he had no idea what real inflation we’d been facing. Technically we’re doing fine, but we have far less disposable income than we used to. 

I know I could work if I had to, but I don’t think it would be worth it from a financial standpoint. 

[Carrie12345]

17 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

Do you have a good support system outside of your dh?  Because if that is the case and was the case in the past you likely could support yourself just fine.  It would potentially be a lot of work but I'm sure you could do it.  Even without a degree, from what I know of you from this forum, you are well educated and likely work well in tough situations.

But that is just you.  I do personally know a few SAHM/W that would likely not survive particularly well on their own, even those that did manage to get a college degree.  They simply don't have what it takes in my opinion.  I know this because I've been privy to how they handle other difficult situations in their lives.

 

I have “secured my bag”, as the kids say. That is, I could make the transition to a sustainable future without much difficulty. At 46. Definitely not when I was in my 20s or almost all of my 30s!

[Paige]

MY DH is delusional too. We had 4 kids with special needs who required appointments, in person, multiple times a week. I have a higher degree than him and he would say things like I should/could get a job and make as much as him. He hires people! He should know. He also wanted to cheap out on life insurance because I should be able to support all those kids myself after a few years. It was very frustrating at the time. 

[JustEm]

I think there are more ways than just teaching your daughters that working is the only way to provide for themselves financially.  Or at least working full-time.  I can only use myself as an example.  I have never had a full-time job.  But I am confident I could financially support myself and the kids if need be.  

The main thing is that I've educated myself on all things finances and have always had 100% access to our finances.  I've also made sure that dh's retirement accounts are pretty equal to mine. So, my Roth gets funded as much as his 401k.  I realize in divorce it would likely be split 50/50 but having complete control over that is a security.

I've also always run my own part-time businesses.  Not specifically for the money but for something to feed my need for things outside of the kids.

I also set up tenants in our house that pay our mortgage.  And in a divorce I'd likely make sure I got the house in the divorce and just always have tenants.  I was very intentional in picking this house to be able to always have multiple areas for tenants. 

These things won't help or be options for every woman but they are examples of doable ways women can protect themselves.  I will say I never intentionally did anything to secure myself in case of divorce except to have full control and access of finances.

Edited January 25 by hjffkj

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I think people just generally have limited understanding of things that aren’t in their personal lives. I had to hang up on my mom the other day because she was going on and on about how families should be taking care of their elderly in the home and she doesn’t understand why she’s the only one taking care of my grandmother. It’s because all of my sisters who aren’t disabled have moved out of the area, I work more than full time, my aunt was widowed young with no life insurance and will work full time until her late 70s at least, and my only two cousins work full time.  She has not worked since 1986 and CANNOT grasp that the $15 an hour the nursing home waiver program in our state will pay a family caregiver is so little that no one can live on it and of course nobody can quit their job to do that.  It isn’t that she expects anyone to caregive for free, because she doesn’t, she just cannot understand that what the state program pays is not nearly enough. 

I pointed out that I won’t be able to draw social security until my 70s so when I am her age I will STILL be working full time and unable to caretake, because my generation won’t be retiring when hers has(never mind that my dad will never retire because he’d be bored and die). Her response was that if people took care of their money better they’d be able to retire or work for minimum wage caregiving.  Just because she could go last week and buy a 2023 vehicle in cash doesn’t mean that most people can, but she doesn’t see that.
She wasn’t always like this, but years of caretaking isolation have changed her. And now I just hang up.

But overall I see this in many people. If they don’t experience it, it doesn’t really occur to them that it happens.

Edited January 25 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Arcadia]

12 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Yes, what money to live on is, and what it takes to get hired for that.

My husband and my male relatives are not up to date on money to live on. They would ask their wives. As for hiring for jobs, most of my male cousins are self employed running family businesses so they are quite in the know with hiring. Those who are not self employed are in corporate positions where they are involved in hiring so they are aware too of how difficult it would be for someone with a gap in resume to get hired as well as what check the box stuff HR wants. 

[katilac]

59 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

When we talk about what I will do when last graduates (in 2 years 😬) he mentions jobs at his employer that he thinks I would be good at. While I might be capable there is no way I could ever be hired for those positions having nothing on my resume but homeschool mom and now I am not even that.  

Don't underestimate how much weight some companies put into who you know! A lot of companies/managers will give someone a chance based on the word of someone they like and/or respect. 

Your husband's company might not be one of them, but then again they might. 

[DawnM]

Not sure, however, my dad drilled it into me that I should have something to fall back on since we never know what life will throw at us.   He insisted I attend college and even pushed grad school.   So, having grown up with that mindset, I really can't address those who didn't have the same leanings.

I do have some friends who have no real marketable skills (no college and no careers) but they are smart enough to get by should they find themselves without a spouse.   It might not be as easy though.

In answer to your question, *I* have that mindset and I am female.

[Carol in Cal.]

There are programs for STEM educated women doing reentry that are very effective.  I have a friend with a math degree who was out of the workforce for at least 20 years and entered one of those.  She got awarded an internship at Apple, and worked hard, and was offered a permanent position at the end of it--which is typical and is the goal of the program--kind of a trial period.  I recognize that that is a subset, but it was encouraging.

I started my own business when I had been mostly out of the workforce for 7 years when DH got laid off.  It was a very hard time for me because I continued to homeschool and was absolutely miserably busy but I was successful.  That was 20 years ago and my business is still going.

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

There are programs for STEM educated women doing reentry that are very effective.  I have a friend with a math degree who was out of the workforce for at least 20 years and entered one of those.  She got awarded an internship at Apple, and worked hard, and was offered a permanent position at the end of it--which is typical and is the goal of the program--kind of a trial period.  I recognize that that is a subset, but it was encouraging.

I started my own business when I had been mostly out of the workforce for 7 years when DH got laid off.  It was a very hard time for me because I continued to homeschool and was absolutely miserably busy but I was successful.  That was 20 years ago and my business is still going.

STEM is one reason that during the pandemic, I pursued the two classes I needed to complete the unfinished general sciences minor I had declared way back in the mists of time. I was double minoring so I didn't have to complete it to graduate and left it undone. But by completing it, I became eligible - should the notion to return to teaching ever strike me - for secondary ed science positions. Given the teacher shortage, I would easily land a job. 

The music degree and performance background is my early years is of no value now. One does not take a gap in a performance career to take care of a child with a health condition and come back from that. Music teachers are generally, here in the north, the first to go when budgets get cut. It is more expensive to run a music department than an art department so bye bye band and choir teachers. Everyone get funneled into a very underfunded art class for their required fine art for the Michigan Merit Curriculum. Then three schools who still want a band and a marching band because "football and commencement" will share ONE band director who then doesn't get benefits because "part time in each district, not full time" which means high turnover. Only the higher middle class and wealthy districts on my side of the state have full time music teachers.

I have been slowly pursuing aerospace engineering. It is expensive, and I am not likely to ever complete it. I seem unmotivated at the moment to dig heels into Calc 4! 😂 But, the coursework on top of the general sciences minor on top of having a bachelor's degree does qualify me for some STEM education engagement jobs. 

But at 54, my entire retirement is wrapped up in Dh. I would not be able to work long enough between now and old age infirmity to make up for the lost time. It isn't like I can put 30 years into the school district at this point.

[Laura Corin]

 

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

Yes, what money to live on is, and what it takes to get hired for that.

No. Husband is entirely aware of that.

Edited January 25 by Laura Corin

[Toocrazy!!]

I think most people are unaware how hard it would be to get a job that would support a family at an older age, let alone after not being in the workforce for many years. 
I only have recently reconsidered how risky it is for a woman to be a SAHM from a financial standpoint. With 50% of marriages ending in divorce, plus injuries, disabilities, early deaths, you have to be prepared. Even if it financially makes sense at the time, there is a lot to consider when you decide to stay at home.
I always used to think it was best for someone to stay home with babies and young kids, and while it might be, it’s no longer so cut and dry to me and financial protection for the SAHM should definitely be part of the decision. 

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

Yes, what money to live on is, and what it takes to get hired for that.

My dh is aware of that. He and I do finances together, so he sees what things cost. He also is well aware of the fact that 26 years out of the workforce leaves me no options that would support me and/or kids. My degree is from 31 years ago in the humanities. Totally useless. 

We do have life insurance in case the worst should happen. Hoping and praying never to need it.

[wathe]

I think this thread is specific to men with stay-at-home wives?

The men's economic blindness described in this thread isn't something I've experienced.   But there are very few families with stay-at-home wives/moms in my personal bubble.   I think I know more  families with SAHD's than SAHM's, and the SAHD's all seem to keep a toe (or half a toe) in the work world, working at their own small work-from-home business projects and/or staying connected/networked with their before-kids work life still-working buddies.   Men in my bubble know what things cost because they participate in the shopping and are involved in the household finances, and understand how much work it takes to run a household be cause they are sharing in the labour (not 50/50 necessarily, but at least enough to have a clue).

I don't think that my bubble is rare or unusual.  Working at a hospital does mean that I know an awful lot of working wives and mothers, though, so maybe?

Edited January 25 by wathe

[HomeAgain]

Years ago I created a savings account dh has no access to.  He knows about it, and we call it my personal emergency fund.  If I needed to get away, I could be set up for a while just fine while I get training/job.  If dh passes away, I am set up to be able to carry on.

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but I think everyone should have some sort of financial security or the ability to find it if circumstances change. It is something we all should think about and plan for, no matter where we are in life.

[Bootsie]

I am not sure if it is being asked if (1) it is important to raise daughters who could support themselves or (2) my wife, who has not been in the labor force, could support herself if need be is a male perspective.  I do not think DH and I view these issues differently.  We think it is important for both males and females to think about how they would support themselves in a number of different situations--not only does a female who is not currently working need to be concerned about becoming a widow.  The death of a stay-at-home mom can put significant financial strain on a family; the illness of a working parent can be financially devastating; if a person is supporting themselves and becomes incapacitated is especially problematic.  No one can perfectly plan or protect against these scenarios, but young people need to consider what resources they do have in place.  Is there extended family that can probably help for a while?  Are there significant savings than be tapped?  Are there other marketable skills that could be employed?  Is there enough life insurance to get the family through a period of adjustment?  Do those who are working have disability insurance?  Neither DH or I think it would necessarily be easy and that a family could continue without some changes in lifestyle or adjustments, but think it is important for both males and females to consider that the unthinkable may happen.

[prairiewindmomma]

Dh is absolutely aware, and it’s been an ongoing convo since I had to give up my law practice to deal with the high medical needs of our kids. Any single earner family has a different risk profile than a family with dual incomes and benefits. 
 

I have been very upfront with all of our kids about hard realities of finances…impacts to career trajectories, retirement, access to health insurance, etc. Midlife me would tell young grad me to make different choices.

[Heartstrings]

I think a lot of men have their opinion changed on this if there is a divorce, especially once a girlfriend comes into the picture.  They may know their wife’s career prospects have been hindered by their choice to have her stay home, and he knows kids are expensive and all that.
 But suddenly they seem to forget all that once it benefits them to do so.  Then all of sudden that 20 year old English degree is worth 6 figures and $100 a week in child support is more than sufficient.  It’s a strange phenomenon.  

Edited January 25 by Heartstrings

[katilac]

3 hours ago, wathe said:

 I don't think that my bubble is rare or unusual.  Working at a hospital does mean that I know an awful lot of working wives and mothers, though, so maybe?

Well, this is a homeschooling board, so it's going to skew to a lot of stay-at-home parents, and that's still overwhelmingly the mom. 

[frogger]

I think it is hard for ANYONE at any age to secure a job that can support a family on their own especially daycare aged children.  It usually takes time to climb the ladder to a management position to do that without a lot of hardship. I think I could support myself though, that is just a whole nother ball of wax. 

[mum]

We raised all of our children, boys and girls to be able to support themselves. One never ever knows what life will bring. My mother had a teaching credential and she kept renewing it until she was in her late 50's, even though she's been out of teaching for years and was married with a fully employed husband making good money. She and my dad always talked about it to us kids when she renewed her credential, that it was the prudent thing to do because one never knows. One of my girls didn't want to go to college and I said to her, you get a qualification of some kind so that you can earn a living. That's the bottom line. 

I did let my occupational therapy license lapse, but if I fulfill the continuing ed, I can get it back. 

[Wheres Toto]

I grew up with a single mother who struggled a lot so I definitely was raised with the idea of being able to support myself.

I'm also already once divorced, although I was a full time working mom at the time of my divorce.    

I've done a mix of SAHM and working outside the home since the kids were born.  I was home for 9 years, but then was able to get a full time job in my previous field when dh was trying to start his own company.  I quit when he went back to a regular full time job in his field.  Then was home for a few years and started a business offering classes to homeschoolers, so something that the kids were able to just come to work with me.    I'm still doing that, although I don't actually take any income from it.  

I do have the qualifications/degrees to teach middle or high school science, and those jobs are definitely in demand.  I also could go back to being an executive assistant, maybe temp to perm at first, if I needed a larger salary than starting out as a teacher.  

If something happened to dh, I could afford our house on what I could make.   Partially because we decided against doing an addition on our very small bungalow and decided it was fine for us, plus perfect for aging in place. 

[Ginevra]

9 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

also handle all the financial stuff so he really doesn’t know what things cost either.

This is us here, too. 
 

For kicks and giggles, I posed this question to him at dinner tonight. What would have happened to me five-ten years ago if either he had left me or he was sick or injured to a degree he could no longer work. I think he is also delusional because he thinks I “would have been fine.” He talks about the assets we own - which yeah, that’s not nothing - but I’m like, “Yeah but you can’t buy groceries and heating oil with a rental house!” 
 

I think part of it is that he does not really know what it takes to keep the empire going here. He does not buy groceries, doesn’t pay for phones and internet, doesn’t manage the Amazon account or send care packages to college kids. He doesn’t buy wedding gifts for nieces and nephews, *Christmas!!!*, doesn’t spreadsheet out what it takes to take the whole family out west to ski for a week. (Which, BTW, now that I know, I am not looking to repeat that for at least five years!) 

 

When I reflect back to several years ago, I was very vulnerable and did not have much awareness of it. I would be in good shape *now*, but in the past I was for sure jumping without a parachute. 

[Clarita]

In our household it's opposite. I'm the "delusional" everything is rainbows and puppies. DH seems much more aware of the sacrifice I make for him to have a SAHM wife. He does believe I'm smart and have marketable skills but he is more it'll take time for society to realize that and pay/hire you accordingly.  I do have a strong support system should anything happen. 

Barring him falling for a twenty something year old model, the finances are such that the kids and I would have a roof over our heads even if all I could get is a minimum wage job. Optimistic me hopes that my college degree and skills would account for something and I could do better than that. 

[Clemsondana]

When I left the academic pathway (I was a postdoc) to stay home and have kids, spouse immediately started planning how to make it easier should I need to function independently financially.  Our IRAs are funded equally, my name is on everything, he made sure he had good life insurance, and he always supports my part-time teaching and volunteering  which I love but which also gives me a current resume.  I would possibly need to downsize-im not sure that I could manage the 3 acres on my own while working-but I could get a house if I sold this one.  He's tried to plan for the fact that the sorts of jobs that I could easily get - teacher at a private school, tutor, lab tech- would put food on the table but wouldn't come close to what an engineer in his field earns.