S/O: Are you a rule follower?

[Hyacinth]

That thread about the hoops students and parents need to jump through to take OTC meds while in school got me thinking. 

I can’t imagine following a rule not to keep ibuprofen on me. As a 17-year-old (and as a 50-something-year old), I would see that as a ridiculous rule that serves no purpose for safety or order and, in fact, creates more work, hardship, and (potentially) pain if followed.

I’m not particularly rebellious or in-your-face contrarian, so I wouldn’t raise a fuss about the rule. I’d just…not follow it.  If I got caught and there were consequences, so be it. 

I’m curious how typical this attitude is toward rules. Are you a rule follower even if you find the rule silly? Does it depend on who is making the rules (and how much you trust and/or respect them)? Do you fight to change rules when they seem silly or overreaching, or do you go with the flow? How do you handle this with your kids? Do you encourage them always to follow the rules?

 

[mommyoffive]

Rule follower here.

[Pawz4me]

I'm pretty much the same as you, @Hyacinth. I'm almost always a rule follower, except in cases where the rule seems silly/senseless and breaking it is very unlikely to harm anyone.  ETA: I do think many rules now are mostly CYA things on the part of the entity making them.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Pawz4me

[ScoutTN]

Sometimes, but like you I definitely filter and adapt. Trying to teach my kids to respect rightful authority but not forget to use your brain. Trying to change a rule - only if it’s  substantive. I’d just carry my ibuprofen, not argue with school authorities about it. 

[Clarita]

I'm a total rule follower. Although I can be convinced that the rule is dumb and then break it. I would also be thinking I was being rebellious the whole time. 

I would 100% just carry OTC medication to school. I did as an adolescent and it didn't even cross my mind there would be a rule against it.

[Bambam]

Depends upon the rule.

When my kids (homeschooled) were taking classes at a local science museum with an official group of homeschoolers (we were not part of the group, but they had extra slots that they let non-group homeschoolers take advantage of), they asked that all the kids wear a certain color tshirt so it would be easier to keep track of them all. Each parent was there with their children. Sometimes both parents were there. I thought that was a silly rule, my kids had no tshirts or shirts in that color, I was always there, so I cheerfully ignored that rule. No one else seemed to follow it either, BTW. Made sense for a school with just a teacher and a couple of parent helpers, but for a homeschool group with a parent from every family there? Silly. 

But safety rules, absolutely I follow those. 

[DawnM]

Depends on the rule.

Our school district has a rule that you can't take off if you don't have a valid reason.   Well, I worked in CA for 17 years and they told us straight out that if you need a mental health day, call in sick.   We got 10 sick days per year and we just used them for whatever and no one batted an eye.

Well, NC can kiss my butt because I will take off when I need to for whatever reason and call in "sick."   It may seem like lying to some, but after years of being told it was fine, I am not about to change my internal "rules" now.

Wait your turn in line.....I will absolutely follow that one and expect others to do the same.....if is a matter of civility, I try to follow the rules.   Civility and safety.

[Clarita]

In terms of fighting the rules. I am not good at keeping silent if I think a rule or system is hurting people. I may not lead the revolution but I'll be open and bold about saying stuff about it (lucky I live in a country that allows me to do that). My husband is even more vocal than I am about bad rules and systems because he really likes rules (he considered being a lawyer, but he was afraid he would have a hard time balancing his desire to win with his morals). 

My children are rule followers when the rules make sense. Otherwise they will question the rules and complain to us afterwards about it. I think they do what they do because they see our example. We've been dealing with a situation lately where we are suffering from the consequences of DH speaking up for what is right. I have no idea how to truly address it with my children (7 and 5). (I am 100% in agreement with DH on what he spoke up for.) 

 

 

[wisdomandtreasures]

Mostly a rule follower. However when I had my C-sections and they said "no food or water after midnight", I took a few sips of water after midnight to avoid getting a dehydration headache.

[kathyl]

48 minutes ago, Hyacinth said:

...

I’m curious how typical this attitude is toward rules. Are you a rule follower even if you find the rule silly? Does it depend on who is making the rules (and how much you trust and/or respect them)? Do you fight to change rules when they seem silly or overreaching, or do you go with the flow? How do you handle this with your kids? Do you encourage them always to follow the rules?

 

Mostly, but I guess it depends on the situation and the rule.  

No, I don't usually follow it based on a relationship, I don't think?

No, I doubt I'd be fighting to change rules.  I'm not that good with words and would probably make the situation worse.  I'd just quietly go about finding a way to circumvent the rule like Terabith in the OTC thread.

I hope I taught my kids to think for themselves which means they can decide for themselves about rules.

I was trying to think of examples and the first one that always comes to mind was an incident in my first-grade public school classroom.  The bratty girl sitting across the table from me stole my coveted rabbit's foot when my back was turned.  I told her to give it back to me.  She refused.  I went up to the teacher and told her what had happened and that I wanted it back.  The teacher refused to do anything.  I went back to my seat and when the bratty girl turned her back, I stole back my rabbit's foot.  The girl started making a fuss.  The teacher looked at me, I looked at her and smiled, and then she just went on with the lesson, ignoring the girl. 

I learned a valuable lesson about authority and rules from that incident at the age of 6yo.  And it's stuck with me all my life and been very useful time and time again.   

[kbutton]

I would say it depends somewhat on the consequences. If my kid could get suspended, I would probably not send them with ibuprofen. Zero tolerance policies are a thing too. 

Some things that are dumb I can pull off not following the rules, but for some situations, I am likely to get caught for some reason, like I’m a walking example of Murphy’s Law.

Otherwise I would say that I weigh what the foreseeable outcomes are and make a decision based on how important it is to avoid/achieve that outcome and why. I regularly drive a little above the speed limit to avoid being stuck behind trucks because that’s a safety issue to me when I can’t see. I once sped egregiously on a really not busy stretch of interstate to avoid bad drivers that kept sandwiching me between the two of them—it was hazardous and annoying.

If someone has made a request of me in good faith, I would not violate that and pretend otherwise. I don’t trust people who do that to me.

I don’t appreciate pressure to break rules to be more fun or rules that have health implications (they won’t know that I didn’t refrigerate this temperature sensitive dish for hours on my way here).

[Ginevra]

Yes, I’m a rule follower. It is difficult for me not to follow the letter of the law, even if I think it’s kinda stupid. Now - I will not do something unethical or immoral, even under pressure from an authority. So I won’t follow the Pied Piper off a cliff. But, if my supervisor says we have to wear navy for virtual meetings on Wednesdays, I’m going to do it even if I think it’s dumb or the reasoning is asinine. 

[lmrich]

When I don't  follow a rule, I feel so guilty about it. 

[Shoeless]

Yes and no. I was in the military, so that means lots of rules. 

But we also homeschool partially because I can't be bothered to follow the nitpicky rules of public school. My kid is a rule follower, but he will also ask for explanations to rules that don't make sense.  That tends to ruffle feathers. 

[Corraleno]

I follow laws and sensible rules that have to do with safety and civility, but I don't feel compelled to follow arbitrary rules that I think are stupid. If violating some arbitrary rule won't hurt or inconvenience anyone, and there aren't any consequences for violating it that I wouldn't be willing to deal with, then I don't have a problem with ignoring it. I would absolutely have carried Tylenol to school and would have helped my kids disguise it if they'd been in a public school with that rule. I'd have also pushed really hard against arbitrary dress code bullshit if my kids had been in public school (and I did challenge dress code stuff when I was a HS student, to the extent of sometimes being sent home).

Stupid arbitrary rules are one of the main reasons I hated HS and fought so hard to force them to allow me to graduate early, even though they initially claimed it was impossible and illegal. This was in the early 70s so no internet for research! I was riding my bike to the local library and then sneaking into the local college library to research the actual laws and minimum requirements for graduation, and eventually they were forced to let me graduate at 16. I also fought against the stupid sexist rule that girls couldn't take shop classes because it would be "distracting" for the boys. So I drew up a petition and got other students to sign it, got a couple of teacher to support me, repeatedly met with the principal and eventually got them to change the rule. Unfortunately the change didn't take effect until the year after I graduated, but I was proud of the fact that my younger sister was one of the first girls to take auto shop, and my best friend, who later went to art school, was able to take wood shop and make some cool sculptures. 

[SHP]

I have a strong internal moral compass that I follow. It usually lines up with laws and rules but not always.

Edited October 28, 2023 by SHP

[regentrude]

Yes and no.

Growing up in a system where we rightfully distrusted authority and questioned everything makes one a tad rebellious. 

I follow rules that make sense and where I understand and accept the reasoning. I will follow rules that are stupid if the consequences otherwise are serious (Like obeying reduced speed in front of schools at dropoff time on days when school is not session. They could reprogram the darned blinking light.  It's dumb but I don't want a ticket).

Some stupid rules I ignore.

Edited October 28, 2023 by regentrude

[Eos]

No. I do value good manners and was a fairly strict parent.  "Rules for thee and not for me," maybe because I know the heartache not following rules has brought me.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Eos

[Eos]

*

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Eos

[Faith-manor]

I was raised to be one, especially with a big religious "God looking over your shoulder" scare/guilt trip. I put up with some pretty awful things because of the rules. Now that I am no longer religious, I find that common sense, and rationality intervene. I follow a lot of the rules, probably the vast majority, but I also bust some of the ones that are just wrong, the rules for the protection of abusers, narcissists, violations of human dignity. If I had a child in PS, they would have the meds they need on their person even if they had to be hidden a pez dispenser or something.  Our schools don't even have school nurses anymore. Kids with life threatening allergies can't carry their epi pens, and those pens are kept locked in offices so far away from many of the locations kids can be on campus that they could easily kill a child not getting the med there in time. So you can bet your boots my attitude towards the school would be ,"Kiss my @".

Edited October 28, 2023 by Faith-manor
Typos

[SKL]

I think I'm generally a rule follower, but I'm also a person who can't stand arbitrariness.  So if I view the rule as arbitrary, I might break it just for that reason.  Like when I made a point to go outside at 12:01 every night because the Covid curfew was stupid.

But I'm not so principled that I would risk serious problems by breaking a dumb rule.  If something is going to seriously threaten my future, a life, etc., then hell.  I'll follow the rule, grudgingly.

The school pill thing is a bit of a dilemma, because schools are a bit bipolar when it comes to discipline.  Some of the dumbest things can get a kid suspended or arrested, or they might be overlooked.  Yet following the rules can also cause problems.  I hate that they put kids in these positions for no good reason.  Another example is what to do if someone hits you at school.  I've seen so many videos of kids sitting there with their arms folded while another student pummels their face, because if they lift an arm to block a punch, let alone hit back, they risk suspension, expulsion from sports teams, loss of scholarships, etc.  It makes me sick.  I do tell my kids that they are allowed to hit back if hit first, screw the rules, but my kids don't have as much at stake as some.

[rebcoola]

I am not a rule follower at all by nature and I made many things tough for myself over the years by not complying to rules that are stupid but were not going to be changed by me.

[Ginevra]

5 hours ago, rebcoola said:

I am not a rule follower at all by nature and I made many things tough for myself over the years by not complying to rules that are stupid but were not going to be changed by me.

I think this is true for one of my family members. I feel frustrated about it at times because I think, “Yes it’s an arbitrary rule but rebelling about it is just going to add to your problems and annoy people you’d be better off placating.” 

[Ting Tang]

Some rules are not laws. My daughter goes to competitions that are 10-12 hours long sometimes. They say no outside food or drink. We almost always buy from concessions, but I still bring our own food and water. 

[teachermom2834]

9 hours ago, rebcoola said:

I am not a rule follower at all by nature and I made many things tough for myself over the years by not complying to rules that are stupid but were not going to be changed by me.

I think I am a rule follower to a fault and afraid to make waves. I am getting better but I think the ideal is somewhere between what is quoted above and always going along to get along. 
 

I posted about my rule following dd carrying ibuprofen in the other thread. I was kind of glad to see her make that choice on her own because I would probably have been paralyzed by the rules at her age. (And in her specific case it would be unnecessary because there is really very little discipline at her school and it isn’t a risk she is going to get suspended if she is caught). 
 

My dd’s school has a lot of rules it does not enforce. For example the dress code. I don’t like seeing my dd stressing about her skirt length being a fraction of an inch too short when other girls are wearing it so short it looks like they aren’t wearing any bottoms under their sweaters at all. So, while I don’t want her thwarting rules or making trouble for herself I would like to see her not put extra constraints on herself no one else is working under. I think I did a lot of that to myself. It isn’t fair to make your own life harder following rules that no one else is and aren’t being enforced. But you have to have a sense of where the line is there.

[Heartstrings]

I’ve always been a rule follower but I could disregard dumb rules, like no Tylenol in my bag.  That’s just over reach.  
I feel like homeschooling has made me less of a rule follower in general.  Getting out of the “system” has made me more apt to question things and substitute my own judgement when it seems prudent.  
I’m also more apt to question authority now rather than blindly obey.  I’ve read too much about people dying because they followed directions from an authority figure.  People stayed at their desks on 9/11 because they were told to.  I’m sorry, if there is a plane on fire sticking out of the building, I’m going to leave.  Teachers talk about having private plans for a school shooter situation because the official plan makes no sense, and I support that.  Authority often does what is best for the *system* not the humans involved.  
It’s not that I never follow rules anymore, I’m just more skeptical.  Should my daughter have to  pee her pants because of a line in the ladies bathroom, or does it make more sense to just step into the empty mens room?  But if she’s fine to wait, we’ll wait.  I’m not going to consent to a voluntary vehicle search at a traffic stop because I want to be “nice”.  That kind of thing.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by Heartstrings

[fraidycat]

I tend to lean on the "rule follower" side of the equation if it's easy enough to follow and doesn't negatively affect me and mine, but I abhor arbitrary and sometimes antiquated rules as well as overreach. So, if I have a good enough reason to ignore the rule and the consequences of being caught are acceptable to me, I can happily ignore a rule "because it's a stupid rule anyway".

My kid would have an emergency OTC pain killer tucked inside a marked fruit snacks package, pad or tampon package, or some other random thing she carries to school daily. 

[rebcoola]

6 hours ago, Ginevra said:

I think this is true for one of my family members. I feel frustrated about it at times because I think, “Yes it’s an arbitrary rule but rebelling about it is just going to add to your problems and annoy people you’d be better off placating.” 

Im sure ADHD demand avoidance is part of my problem but I wasn't diagnosed as a kid.

[Ginevra]

46 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

Im sure ADHD demand avoidance is part of my problem but I wasn't diagnosed as a kid.

Interesting. I can imagine that is part of the story for this person, too. 

[sassenach]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:01 PM, Hyacinth said:

That thread about the hoops students and parents need to jump through to take OTC meds while in school got me thinking. 

I can’t imagine following a rule not to keep ibuprofen on me. As a 17-year-old (and as a 50-something-year old), I would see that as a ridiculous rule that serves no purpose for safety or order and, in fact, creates more work, hardship, and (potentially) pain if followed.

I’m not particularly rebellious or in-your-face contrarian, so I wouldn’t raise a fuss about the rule. I’d just…not follow it.  If I got caught and there were consequences, so be it. 

I’m curious how typical this attitude is toward rules. Are you a rule follower even if you find the rule silly? Does it depend on who is making the rules (and how much you trust and/or respect them)? Do you fight to change rules when they seem silly or overreaching, or do you go with the flow? How do you handle this with your kids? Do you encourage them always to follow the rules?

 

I'm very much like you. I refuse to follow stupid rules. If I'm not sure if the rule is stupid (say, if it's outside my domain) I will follow it. I will also follow rules of courtesy. But if I am knowledgable and the rule is clearly dumb, I will absolutely use my own judgement. 

[Kassia]

25 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I'm very much like you. I refuse to follow stupid rules. If I'm not sure if the rule is stupid (say, if it's outside my domain) I will follow it. I will also follow rules of courtesy. But if I am knowledgable and the rule is clearly dumb, I will absolutely use my own judgement. 

same.  And I taught my kids to question things and learn/use civil disobedience when called for.

[katilac]

I try to suss out the reason for the rule, and the consequences for breaking it or following it. And tried to teach my kids to do the same. 

My kids never went to school, but I would have been absolutely fine with them breaking the "no otc meds" rule. So stupid, particularly when every middle and high school has actual harmful and illegal drugs on campus that they should be worrying about. 

On 10/28/2023 at 6:44 AM, Ting Tang said:

Some rules are not laws. My daughter goes to competitions that are 10-12 hours long sometimes. They say no outside food or drink. We almost always buy from concessions, but I still bring our own food and water. 

Another rule I have no problem breaking, even when my attendance is more 'voluntary' than a competition. If I buy an expensive ticket for an event, I have no problem bringing in a bottle of water versus paying $5 for each one, or bringing in a protein bar to hold me over until we can leave for food. The more reasonable the prices are, the more likely I will just go ahead and buy there. 

On the other hand, I would never eat or drink somewhere that prohibits it in order to protect the setting or certain items. 

On 10/27/2023 at 10:52 PM, SKL said:

 The school pill thing is a bit of a dilemma, because schools are a bit bipolar when it comes to discipline.  Some of the dumbest things can get a kid suspended or arrested, or they might be overlooked.   

One of the many reasons I hate this is because it encourages kids to lie, and really makes it difficult to have a positive and honest relationship with authority figures. 

I remember an article (way back) about zero tolerance rules, and how one young man accidentally left a knife of some kind in the open bed of his truck. It was a knife for some kind of work, I believe, not a weapon (although obviously could be used as a weapon). He was an honors student who didn't get into trouble. 

Someone spotted it and they called him to the office. And he said it was his but he did not realize it was in the truck. 

At any rate, it would have been in his best interests to lie and say it wasn't his, and that someone must have thrown it into the bed of his truck. If they had insisted on trying to suspend/expel him anyway, he would have had an excellent chance of fighting it. 

I actually found one of the articles! 2002, and it was a bread knife. He was taking stuff to the thrift shop for his grandma, and had no idea the knife had slipped out of a box into the truck. Stupidity! 

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/us/high-school-expels-junior-after-guard-finds-knife-in-truck.html
 

And I found an update that the district eventually agreed that they were able to shorten the expulsion from all year to to time served - which was two weeks at the alternative school. His appeal had been scheduled for the next day, and he would have moved to a private school if they lost. So the school district harmed a student because he missed two weeks of his actual classes, and came very close to harming themselves by losing one of their good students. 

I'm pretty sure I ranted and raved about this in 2002 as well 😂

Edited October 29, 2023 by katilac

[rebcoola]

No tolerance is so dumb their was incident at the middle school when I was high school with a kid handing out tums (or similar) as candy they suspended the kid who brought it and all the kids who took some including the kid who came to the teacher when they realized it wasn't candy