s/o physical greetings etc. in church

[Ginevra]

Count me with the no-touchers, @SKL  It was my favorite thing about COVID times - no forced hand-shaking and god-no on hugs. I will hug people I love or like a lot but I would be happier if it wasn’t a thing. 

[Grace Hopper]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

re forced/coerced/phony:
why do folks consider the handshaking as more coerced/phony than any other rituals that are customary in the respective community, like standing up when the gospel is read, singing along with the hymn, communal prayer? In each instance, you are compelled to perform a physical action that may or may not feel uncomfortable to an individual; you can choose to abstain (but might draw attention to yourself in doing so);joint participation is considered valuable for the fellowship. 

Yes, I believe in orthodox churches, a traditional passing of the peace is a liturgical component. It actually does (did?) have a “namaste” sort of element, as the common exchange of peace be with you /and also with you are personal statements to one individual at a time (though it admittedly is more singular than communal). A simple handshake or modern fist bump or even just the one-on-one exchange with no touching whatsoever is something I personally don’t find invasive. But yes, acknowledging one another and wishing peace are, imo, acts of worship. 
 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

What makes me uncomfortable is breaking up the service with a meet and greet after a time of singing. There’s no organized shaking of hands, or a mantra to bless upon one another, but kind of a dash around to say hello to one’s friends followed by a quick scurry back to seats. I am thankful my home church dropped that a few years ago, I found it disruptive to worship and study. I do appreciate that we have an area for fellowship over coffee where people can meet and linger for conversations before and after service. 

 

43 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

oh, that second thing I would find annoying. 

What @Grace Hopperdescribes is what I'm familiar with. It's not a dignified ritual type thing, but more of a free-for-all. When the church we attended first started it mostly it was people shaking hands and speaking to the people in the pews in front of and behind them w/o leaving their spots. Which wasn't too bad. But then it rather quickly evolved into an almost chaotic milling about--the choir left the loft and walked into the congregation to greet people, numerous other people left their pews and worked their way to a totally different part of the sanctuary, etc. If you just stayed in your spot and greeted the people right beside, in front, and behind you and sat back down you'd often have to sit and wait for several minutes like a wallflower before order and decorum were regained. I didn't I like the forced touchy-feely-jovial performative aspect of it, but I also found it very disruptive to the purpose the service was supposed to serve--worship.

[gardenmom5]

My church doesn't do this (may or may not shake hands with as a greeting to people with whom we are actually speaking - not because we're sitting near them.  after having my hands smashed by (usually young) males who think "a strong grip exudes confidence" . . . I'm not too keen on that one either.

I have visited churches that do, and I don't like it.  It makes me uncomfortable, and I think it wasn't well thought out as there is no way to decline to participate without being "shamed".

[Dmmetler]

My dad's church currently has the "greeting time/passing the peace" at the very beginning, after the announcements, but before the prelude and while the choir enters. If you dislike it, you can easily just wait to enter until after that point, but not miss anything in the service-a lot of the folks chatting in the parlor don't come in until they hear the prelude, so it wouldn't stand out. 

The same church also has a few rows, near an exit, reserved for those who "may need to worship outside the sanctuary at some point during the service". 

 

Somehow, it wasn't a surprise to discover that the current senior pastor has a child with autism...

 

[marbel]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I wonder if people have become more bothered by handshakes because we don't use them all the time? Like, if we grew up where were shaking hands regularly in day to day life would they still be as bothersome? Or do they feel odd because we don't do it much?

I am wondering about this too. I grew up with handshaking as a normal thing. We taught our kids how to shake hands, just as our parents taught us. I saw my father shake hands with his brothers-in-law and friends every time we visited. I have also been to some churches that had a time of greeting with a handshake (pre-Covid).  As someone - sorry can't remember - said upthread, I see it is a way of reminding ourselves and others that we are ultimately brothers and sisters.  So with that in mind, to me, it seems that if it feels fake, there is something missing in the feeling of fellowship with these brothers and sisters. This is just my feeling/perception/opinion; I understand others feel differently. 

Anyway, I miss handshaking in general. Since I grew up with it I feel it is a very natural gesture to express goodwill - as it has been used for thousands of years if not longer. 

I'm also not opposed to a hand on my arm or shoulder; I have often been guilty of lighting touching someone's arm at the end of a conversation, as I'm saying "it was nice talking to you" or whatever. I did that at church quite often, to both men and women, and kids for that matter. I am not a hugger, but that kind of light touch is not troubling to me when I'm the recipient and I hope it wasn't to anyone I did it to!  Again, it seemed very natural to me, just as a handshake does upon greeting. 

ETA: churches where any greeting or fellowship time is considered "time to catch up with friends" over "time to greet strangers" is a whole 'nother topic which infuriates me. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by marbel

[Carol in Cal.]

I’ve had it and not had it, and I’d rather not have it.  It’s done in so many stupid ways, and maybe one or two ‘pretty good’ ones.

When I was growing up I didn’t run across it until I was high school age.  Luckily it was integrated into the liturgy well.  Around the offering the pastor read the passage about making peace with your brother before bringing your gift to the altar, and then he said “The peace of the Lord be with you” and we would pass the peace to one another.  That made me feel like there was actually a point to it.  I was at an age that was a liminal time, so hugs didn’t bother me that much; and I took the theology very seriously and searched my heart to see if I needed to pray for help loving someone difficult in the moment.  At the time this was an excellent spiritual discipline for me.

That was common throughout high school and college.  Then when I graduated I went to a church that didn’t do it, and then when I moved across the country I went to a church that did, and they did it poorly.  It was kind of like a social free for all, with chatting and a big buzz of talk, laughter, hugging, making plans for lunch, etc.  It felt very forced, and it was a major interruption of the service, not integrated into it—no more Bible quote to tee it up any longer.

Looking back on it, I think that that Bible quote was part of a provisional hymnal and didn’t make it into the final one.

So then I transferred to a church that used the old hymnal and so it stopped.  Then a newish pastor forced the new hymnal AND ‘contemporary worship’ AND passing of the peace into it, and it was really awful.  Sometimes it was a holy howdy, and sometimes a free for all, and the pastor kept changing where in the service was but it was always clearly a break in the service with no liturgical function, and eventually he wanted to rein that in so he imposed his own words on it which were awkward to say (you were supposed to say ‘The peace of Christ be with you’ to each other and then move on, which nobody talks like that except the pastor leading the liturgy so I found it very forced and awkward) and maybe hug or maybe shake hands but definitely not chat, except some people did, and I flat out refused to say that forced phrase—I would just smile widely and shake hands and move on.  Sometimes I would not go out into the aisle and kind of tried to avoid the whole thing.  I really hated it—the forced affection, the forced words, and most of all the interruption of the liturgy which should have a regular ebb and flow to it.  Plus I’m kind of short and so the ‘hugging you against my shirt buttons’ makes me feel like a child among adults.  Ugh.

4 years ago we transferred to the church I expect to stay in for the rest of my life, and although we use the new hymnal we don’t do that.  If we did, I’m sure we would do it well, not awkwardly, but I kind of don’t think we would do it at all.  

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

Yes, I believe in orthodox churches, a traditional passing of the peace is a liturgical component. It actually does (did?) have a “namaste” sort of element, as the common exchange of peace be with you /and also with you are personal statements to one individual at a time (though it admittedly is more singular than communal). A simple handshake or modern fist bump or even just the one-on-one exchange with no touching whatsoever is something I personally don’t find invasive. But yes, acknowledging one another and wishing peace are, imo, acts of worship. 
 

Yes, it is supposed to be a joyful but also serious moment of sharing peace amongst each other. I guess I'm lucky I have always found that...or I'm so picky I wouldn't have stayed at a church that did it differently?

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

 

What @Grace Hopperdescribes is what I'm familiar with. It's not a dignified ritual type thing, but more of a free-for-all. When the church we attended first started it mostly it was people shaking hands and speaking to the people in the pews in front of and behind them w/o leaving their spots. Which wasn't too bad. But then it rather quickly evolved into an almost chaotic milling about--the choir left the loft and walked into the congregation to greet people, numerous other people left their pews and worked their way to a totally different part of the sanctuary, etc. If you just stayed in your spot and greeted the people right beside, in front, and behind you and sat back down you'd often have to sit and wait for several minutes like a wallflower before order and decorum were regained. I didn't I like the forced touchy-feely-jovial performative aspect of it, but I also found it very disruptive to the purpose the service was supposed to serve--worship.

I'm am definitely now realizing that people are describing VERY different things! 

51 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I’ve had it and not had it, and I’d rather not have it.  It’s done in so many stupid ways, and maybe one or two ‘pretty good’ ones.

When I was growing up I didn’t run across it until I was high school age.  Luckily it was integrated into the liturgy well.  Around the offering the pastor read the passage about making peace with your brother before bringing your gift to the altar, and then he said “The peace of the Lord be with you” and we would pass the peace to one another.  That made me feel like there was actually a point to it.

 

This was what I was thinking of, not the orgy of hugs and random chatter others were saying. Even in the church I spoke of where the pastor came into the pews to shake hands it was still a formal "peace be with you" thing. I do hug my own family - and I kiss my kids on the top of the head usually, but just shake hands with anyone else in easy reaching distance and nod and smile at anyone further away that makes eye contact (or anyone that appears not to want to shake hands)

[marbel]

Another thought: worship is not supposed to be about what is comfortable for us. I am not a scholar on what is perfectly correct Biblical worship - my guess is that Orthodox Christianity is closest to worship described in Acts, but I'm not making a statement about that. But anyway, there may be moments that are not perfectly to our taste. The sermon may prod us a little bit (and probably should), music may be less than ideal, we may have to greet someone when we'd rather not.  I do think people should be comfortable in their physical autonomy, so people should feel free to wave or say "I don't shake hands, but I greet you in the name of Christ" (or whatever). No one should be acting in a creepy way but what is creepy to me may be  perfectly fine to someone else. 

I guess my point is that worship is for God, not us, and if we* can't give a little, then, well, I don't know. I'm not even very good at this myself, so I'm not lecturing anyone. 

* Neurotypical we. Allowances of course should be given with grace to those who are not. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by marbel

[TexasProud]

I guess I love the disorganized fellowship time.  It is the only time I see some people. If we didn't have people interacting like that, especially making sure we greet new people, then we would have ( and have had) people complain that our church isn't friendly enough.  

[Indigo Blue]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

bad. But then it rather quickly evolved into an almost chaotic milling about--the choir left the loft and walked into the congregation to greet people, numerous other people left their pews and worked their way to a totally different part of the sanctuary, etc. If you just stayed in your spot and greeted the people right beside, in front, and behind you and sat back down you'd often have to sit and wait for several minutes like a wallflower before order and decorum were regained

You just described our church exactly. At least, that’s how it was. They stopped doing that at some point. I really don’t know the reason. But, oh my gosh, the wallflower thing! I never moved out of my space but just greeted those around me. I stood for a very long time with my hands folded while others were being extroverts! It was awkward! I felt as if I must come across as a grinchy, cranky person. It just was not my personality to bolt around the place greeting everyone. I’m glad that stopped. 

[marbel]

12 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I guess I love the disorganized fellowship time.  It is the only time I see some people. If we didn't have people interacting like that, especially making sure we greet new people, then we would have ( and have had) people complain that our church isn't friendly enough.  

I believe people are talking about a break during the actual worship service, where people go around greeting each other (beyond just greeting those around them for a quick moment). 

Does your fellowship time happen in the middle of the service? Or is it something before or after, where it's just people chatting? 

[Indigo Blue]

Our pastor (current) has often made comments and preached about people just sitting there and not worshipping with gusto and fire. Comments like, “I look around this morning and some of you just seem so ho hum. People get excited! Don’t be afraid to raise your hands and praise God!”

I used to imagine that if every single person in our church were introverts (like so many here), that’s EXACTLY what our church would be like. Then I’d think….introverts would worship quietly and inwardly, and that’s ok. And there wouldn’t be anything wrong with that. It would be The First Baptist Church of Introversion. We’d all sit solemnly and happily in our seats. Then I’d think….you can’t just expect people to change their personality and make them feel they aren’t doing something right just because they aren’t jumping over the pews.
 

This is what my mind does, sitting right in church, when I feel the pull of social control. 🤔

[bookbard]

I'd be curious to hear if people from places apart from the USA have this custom - the only time I ever experienced it was attending an American-run 'camp' and it was so uncomfortable I stayed outside in the mothers and babies area for all the services for the whole week (wasn't just the touch thing but the whole vibe was very weird). This was years ago - I haven't attended a church in at least 20 years. 

I do remember when I was a teen there was one guy who was super touchy feely and wanted to hug everyone and thought it hysterical I didn't like it. I look back now and think just how inappropriate it was. 

I can tell you that when I finally left church not a single 'friend' contacted me. So I agree that all the 'hugging and fellowship' is pretty fake. 

 

[marbel]

13 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Our pastor (current) has often made comments and preached about people just sitting there and not worshipping with gusto and fire. Comments like, “I look around this morning and some of you just seem so ho hum. People get excited! Don’t be afraid to raise your hands and praise God!”

I used to imagine that if every single person in our church were introverts (like so many here), that’s EXACTLY what our church would be like. Then I’d think….introverts would worship quietly and inwardly, and that’s ok. And there wouldn’t be anything wrong with that. It would be The First Baptist Church of Introversion. We’d all sit solemnly and happily in our seats. Then I’d think….you can’t just expect people to change their personality and make them feel they aren’t doing something right just because they aren’t jumping over the pews.
 

This is what my mind does, sitting right in church, when I feel the pull of social control. 🤔

Based on my experience of the past 25 years, in two different states and hm, probably 6 churches, I'd say that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian Church in America would be comfortable for you. Very rarely have I seen hands raised, etc. It's very calm and quiet. 

(Obviously I know that 6 churches does not mean it's universal. But I think my experience is typical, from what I have been told.)

ETA: I've not seen much in the way of greeting, passing the peace, etc., during the service either. But there has always, always been a time of fellowship with coffee/tea/hot cocoa/water and sometimes food after the service (or between services if there are two) for people to greet each other and visitors. 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by marbel

[TexasProud]

9 minutes ago, marbel said:

I believe people are talking about a break during the actual worship service, where people go around greeting each other (beyond just greeting those around them for a quick moment). 

Does your fellowship time happen in the middle of the service? Or is it something before or after, where it's just people chatting? 

It happens after the first two songs. And yes, sometimes I leave out of the choir loft or from the praise team to go great a specific someone who maybe hasn't been in awhile or someone it looks like no one is greeting or someone that I know has a situation going on and I want to give them a word of encouragement.

The thing is, there is no "right" way. Some of you are putting this down. It works for us. It works for me. I would not be comfortable in what would feel like a "stuffy" church, but seems more worshipful to most of you.  And that is ok.  We are not going to be comfortable with everything.  Whatever comes closest to helping YOU focus on the Lord is the place you should go. Obviously, Indigo Blue would hate our church.  That is fine. Not all churches are the same.  I adore going around and meeting people. It makes the place feel like people are alive and care about each other. At least to me.  A very sedate greeting would make me feel like a church is a dead church.  But again, it isn't.  Just like mine isn't terrible because we do it our way. 

[Indigo Blue]

@TexasProudthere is a very good chance I would not dislike your church. At MY church, I have personal feelings about the way messages are presented. YOU would probably agree with me if you could attend. I also don’t think it’s “wrong” to greet people. If a congregation loves doing that, it is a good thing. In our church, there are many other reasons for my feelings. It’s for good reason. I wouldn’t expect that your church is like mine at all. 

[Catwoman]

10 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

It happens after the first two songs. And yes, sometimes I leave out of the choir loft or from the praise team to go great a specific someone who maybe hasn't been in awhile or someone it looks like no one is greeting or someone that I know has a situation going on and I want to give them a word of encouragement.

The thing is, there is no "right" way. Some of you are putting this down. It works for us. It works for me. I would not be comfortable in what would feel like a "stuffy" church, but seems more worshipful to most of you.  And that is ok.  We are not going to be comfortable with everything.  Whatever comes closest to helping YOU focus on the Lord is the place you should go. Obviously, Indigo Blue would hate our church.  That is fine. Not all churches are the same.  I adore going around and meeting people. It makes the place feel like people are alive and care about each other. At least to me.  A very sedate greeting would make me feel like a church is a dead church.  But again, it isn't.  Just like mine isn't terrible because we do it our way. 

You're absolutely right! There is no one right way to do things. I haven't been to church in years because I don't feel I get any benefit out of it, but I recognize that many people love it and look forward to it every week (and sometimes multiple times a week or even daily.)

[Pawz4me]

40 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

 

I used to imagine that if every single person in our church were introverts (like so many here), that’s EXACTLY what our church would be like. Then I’d think….introverts would worship quietly and inwardly, and that’s ok. And there wouldn’t be anything wrong with that. It would be The First Baptist Church of Introversion. We’d all sit solemnly and happily in our seats. Then I’d think….you can’t just expect people to change their personality and make them feel they aren’t doing something right just because they aren’t jumping over the pews.

If I were to go back to church (which is highly unlikely) it would be to a more contemplative, inwardly focused one. I've often thought the Quaker silent meeting thing sounds wonderful.

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

I guess I love the disorganized fellowship time.  It is the only time I see some people. If we didn't have people interacting like that, especially making sure we greet new people, then we would have ( and have had) people complain that our church isn't friendly enough.  

Our church is very intentional about welcoming visitors, acknowledging them (generally) during the service and actively before and afterwards. At the time we dropped that greeting in the middle of the service, part of the decision making process was pastoral staff  informally surveying new members; the consensus was that being approached in their seats by enthusiastic congregants could be a bit overwhelming. It seemed near unanimous that when visiting most preferred being greeted when they felt freer to move about. Having a welcome table near the entrance was our church’s answer to that, and it works well. 
 

As said above, though, every church is different. That’s why people often visit more than one when they are trying out new places. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, marbel said:

Based on my experience of the past 25 years, in two different states and hm, probably 6 churches, I'd say that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian Church in America would be comfortable for you. Very rarely have I seen hands raised, etc. It's very calm and quiet. 

I would say in my experience that is true for most mainline denominations, including Presbyterian USA, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc. I've only seen the hands raised thing in non denominational and southern baptist type churches. 

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

.  I adore going around and meeting people. It makes the place feel like people are alive and care about each other. At least to me.  A very sedate greeting would make me feel like a church is a dead church.  But again, it isn't.  Just like mine isn't terrible because we do it our way. 

To be clear, before services people greet each other, and afterward you can't walk down the main aisle for people hugging and chatting and enthusiastically greeting each other. But at that point those uncomfortable with it can sneak off. 

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

We left organized religion about twenty years ago, and I'm certainly old enough (60) to have grown up with hand shaking. It's not handshakes that bother me, it's the forced/coerced nature of it in a big group that makes it seem so wrong.

Friendly introvert here….

Yes that feels very wrong to me. Nothing like expected in my world. There are a lot of huggers. I allow hugs from many people but I am quick to avoid it if I don’t want it. 
 

[SKL]

5 hours ago, marbel said:

Another thought: worship is not supposed to be about what is comfortable for us. I am not a scholar on what is perfectly correct Biblical worship - my guess is that Orthodox Christianity is closest to worship described in Acts, but I'm not making a statement about that. But anyway, there may be moments that are not perfectly to our taste. The sermon may prod us a little bit (and probably should), music may be less than ideal, we may have to greet someone when we'd rather not.  I do think people should be comfortable in their physical autonomy, so people should feel free to wave or say "I don't shake hands, but I greet you in the name of Christ" (or whatever). No one should be acting in a creepy way but what is creepy to me may be  perfectly fine to someone else. 

I guess my point is that worship is for God, not us, and if we* can't give a little, then, well, I don't know. I'm not even very good at this myself, so I'm not lecturing anyone. 

* Neurotypical we. Allowances of course should be given with grace to those who are not. 

1) I think worship is for us, not God.  God does not need anything from us.

2) To the neurotypical comment - I am not gonna wear a sign on my forehead saying "I'm HFA don't touch me."  How would anyone know who is or isn't neurotypical in church?

[SKL]

I guess I need to look for a stuffier church.

I am not judging other denominations that are more outwardly expressive in church.  I think it's kinda cool to see worshipers getting excited.  That wouldn't fly in the church I grew up in or the one I took my kids to.  😛  But if I wanted that, I could find it.  It just isn't me.

I guess we should be glad we have so many options.

[Aside] But the thing is, I wanted us to have a "church family."  And despite attending and sending my kids there for over 10 years, I still don't feel like it's our "church family."  I made a couple friends there, but that's it.  Kinda disappointing.  If I switch churches, I doubt the connection will be better.

My kids have no desire to ever go back.  I forced them a few times last year, but I'm done doing that.  I doubt they will ever attend any church with me again.

[J-rap]

This was always a thing at churches I've been to -- sometimes during the "passing of the peace" or sometimes just a "turn around and greet your neighbor."  I never really liked it because it felt forced.

But at the church we're at now, it feels different.  Now it's just a friendly "greet your neighbor!" but no one feels forced to, or you can just wave and smile or give a friendly nod if you want, and no one seems to mind whatever you do or don't do.  Some people don't do anything and that's fine.  I'm not sure why it feels so different, but it feels very authentic and caring.  I like it.

[wisdomandtreasures]

Whew, I'm glad my church doesn't do this. Otherwise I might never go! Or I would just cringe the whole time. The world was not made for introverts.

Edited August 20, 2023 by wisdomandtreasures

[popmom]

12 hours ago, regentrude said:

re forced/coerced/phony:
why do folks consider the handshaking as more coerced/phony than any other rituals that are customary in the respective community, like standing up when the gospel is read, singing along with the hymn, communal prayer? In each instance, you are compelled to perform a physical action that may or may not feel uncomfortable to an individual; you can choose to abstain (but might draw attention to yourself in doing so);joint participation is considered valuable for the fellowship. 

I haven't read all of the replies but...

There is a huge difference in actually touching someone and interacting with someone verbally than in say-- listening to the scripture read or singing a hymn. I decide ahead of time what my beliefs are (doctrine and how I choose to worship). I would love to participate in worshiping my Lord and God with minimal human interference. Humans are required to organize the worship experience. Apart from that...I say...get out of my way. I'm there to worship. Period. This shouldn't be taken as to minimize the importance of community. But that is a separate thing from (((WORSHIP))). 

Christians can take this with a grain of salt because I am currently deconstructing. I am seeking a church that doesn't conflate worship with fellowship in a problematic way. Curious if what I am saying here makes any sense to anyone else.

Edited August 20, 2023 by popmom

[Carol in Cal.]

8 hours ago, marbel said:

Another thought: worship is not supposed to be about what is comfortable for us. I am not a scholar on what is perfectly correct Biblical worship - my guess is that Orthodox Christianity is closest to worship described in Acts, but I'm not making a statement about that. But anyway, there may be moments that are not perfectly to our taste. The sermon may prod us a little bit (and probably should), music may be less than ideal, we may have to greet someone when we'd rather not.  I do think people should be comfortable in their physical autonomy, so people should feel free to wave or say "I don't shake hands, but I greet you in the name of Christ" (or whatever). No one should be acting in a creepy way but what is creepy to me may be  perfectly fine to someone else. 

I guess my point is that worship is for God, not us, and if we* can't give a little, then, well, I don't know. I'm not even very good at this myself, so I'm not lecturing anyone. 

* Neurotypical we. Allowances of course should be given with grace to those who are not. 

My best friend in college was Coptic Orthodox, and in that community it was normal to greet with three kisses, left cheek, right cheek, left cheek, kind of slowly and meaningfully, when you first saw someone.  I don’t recall it being part of their church services but it was a very common ritualistic greeting, and my impression was that they thought this was the original ‘holy kiss’ of Biblical times.

[BakersDozen]

16 hours ago, SKL said:

I used to come late to church to avoid it, but then they started moving it later in the service. 

That's when I would make a move for the exit and either head for the bathroom or outside. I hate shaking hands with people and honestly, I just refuse to do so now. I've seen folks sneeze into their hands right before the "meet and greet" time - ick. I've seen the greeter at the door do the same and shake hand after hand - ick. It's gotten to a point that I go in a side door, thereby avoiding the greeters, sit in the corner in the back away from as many folks as possible, and know where the exit doors are so I'm out of my seat and out the door before anyone can turn and hold their hand out to me. Extreme, maybe, but I find the practice of shaking hands to be really, really gross.

 

[Eos]

9 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

If I were to go back to church (which is highly unlikely) it would be to a more contemplative, inwardly focused one. I've often thought the Quaker silent meeting thing sounds wonderful.

All the Meetings I've attended including my home one have ended by either the Clerk or an elder with a watch turning to the people next to them and shaking hands, often saying "good morning."  I wasn't able to attend for a period of time and when I went back they had switched to holding hands in a circle to end (we have a tiny Meeting.)  For whatever reason, I do not like this and actually avoided Meeting for a while after that or would just get up and leave when it started.  Post-covid, they've stopped even shaking hands so I feel ok going back, but still shake hands with my daughter or anyone I've gone with because I'm contrary that way and stuck in my ways 🙂 

[TexasProud]

15 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Count me with the no-touchers, @SKL  It was my favorite thing about COVID times - no forced hand-shaking and god-no on hugs. I will hug people I love or like a lot but I would be happier if it wasn’t a thing. 

See to me, that was the WORST thing about Covid.  Many times, the handshakes and hugs are the only physical contact I get all week.  Physical touch is my love language.  

That said, I do not go up hugging random people I do not know.  But I have been at this church for 27 years and I am still somewhat of a "newbie" compared to many in our church who have been attending 50 years or more.

Yes, I will hug many, many women today. It is how we greet each other. I don't hug as much in that official greeting time. That is more talking and making sure they are welcome. And hand shaking is just such a cultural norm, I do not think about it at all, to be honest.

[Ginevra]

So interesting how we all want different levels of touch. The older I have gotten, the more pronounced is my level of cactus. 

[marbel]

9 hours ago, SKL said:

1) I think worship is for us, not God.  God does not need anything from us.

2) To the neurotypical comment - I am not gonna wear a sign on my forehead saying "I'm HFA don't touch me."  How would anyone know who is or isn't neurotypical in church?

1. Well, I do agree that God does not need anything from us, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want certain things from us.  

2. Come on. People can learn to be sensitive to others. If I see someone hanging back from the greeting, I can either shove my hand at them and try to "force" them to shake it, or I can drop my hand, smile, and say hello or whatever is supposed to be said. It's just not that hard to tell if someone is hesitating, and the reason doesn't matter. If someone is sitting when everyone else is standing, there is surely a reason that I don't need to know or be judgmental about. I probably shouldn't have said neurotypical; upon reflection I realize that's not really what I meant. There are a lot of reasons people may not want to shake hands or whatever. But most people should be able to muster a friendly hello to the people sitting next to them in church --> that was my main point. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by marbel

[Indigo Blue]

6 hours ago, popmom said:

I haven't read all of the replies but...

There is a huge difference in actually touching someone and interacting with someone verbally than in say-- listening to the scripture read or singing a hymn. I decide ahead of time what my beliefs are (doctrine and how I choose to worship). I would love to participate in worshiping my Lord and God with minimal human interference. Humans are required to organize the worship experience. Apart from that...I say...get out of my way. I'm there to worship. Period. This shouldn't be taken as to minimize the importance of community. But that is a separate thing from (((WORSHIP))). 

Christians can take this with a grain of salt because I am currently deconstructing. I am seeking a church that doesn't conflate worship with fellowship in a problematic way. Curious if what I am saying here makes any sense to anyone else.

It does. In my case, I’m tired of being told how to feel, who to love, who to ostracize. And that if you don’t feel a certain way, you aren’t the “right” kind of Christian. I feel down when I leave our church. I sort of want to go, but I’d also be happy not going at all because I just feel so done with it all. I do want to be a part of community. To support dh. We are leaving the one we are now attending. We both feel it’s time. Dh and I both need to open our eyes and be more discerning going forward. Things just aren’t the same in church as it used to be. All the ones we have visited so far have had a much better atmosphere. 

[alisoncooks]

This thread reminded me of my fave Mr. Bean gif…

 

[-----]

nm

Edited September 1 by kathyl

[Kidlit]

I think my problem is. . .partially me, maybe.  Ha!  I attended a tiny church with many relatives as a kid.   It was (& still is) a close-knit community.  Hugging was normal but didn't feel weird.  Now I go to a large church with a bunch of strangers and I have 0% expectancy that they'll ever be much more than that.  It is what it is, as they say. 

[SKL]

Yeah ... to hijack my own thread ... I may have been unrealistic when I thought I could become part of a church "family" where a high % of people go back generations.

It's not that people are mean or anything.  They're just ... strangers.

This morning I was thinking about some possible reasons.  The lead pastor I liked left, and a younger guy was hired. The new pastor did away with small group adult Sunday school.  That hour used to be pretty special to me for several reasons.  For one, it encouraged me, as an introvert, to participate in the discussions, which meant opening up and getting to know people I otherwise wouldn't talk to.  The new pastor instituted a church-wide Sunday School class (ages 13+) which he leads.  People like me don't participate, other than a few niceties to the others at our table.  They also stopped using the hymnal during 11am services.  You have to know the "contemporary" songs if you want to sing ... or get there at 8:30am for the traditional service (if that's even still a thing).  I happen to like singing the hymns.  😞

Theoretically, there are other Bible studies I could join during business hours or times when I'm doing family stuff.  But it's very hard for me to justify doing something for myself.  Sunday morning had its own built-in excuse.

Well ... I just need to figure this out.

[Pam in CT]

from POV of only-vaguely social Jewish introvert...

16 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

If I were to go back to church (which is highly unlikely) it would be to a more contemplative, inwardly focused one. I've often thought the Quaker silent meeting thing sounds wonderful.

... Quaker silent meeting is FANTASTIC.  A fusion of the extended zen of meditation with the companionable felt presence of a community; with the added bonus of of comfy seat cushions and (in the meeting in my town) a huge stone fireplace in which a fire roars in the winter and a pedestal candle stands in other seasons.  An absolute paradise for vaguely-social introverts.

 

7 hours ago, Eos said:

All the Meetings I've attended including my home one have ended by either the Clerk or an elder with a watch turning to the people next to them and shaking hands, often saying "good morning."  I wasn't able to attend for a period of time and when I went back they had switched to holding hands in a circle to end (we have a tiny Meeting.)  For whatever reason, I do not like this and actually avoided Meeting for a while after that or would just get up and leave when it started.  Post-covid, they've stopped even shaking hands so I feel ok going back, but still shake hands with my daughter or anyone I've gone with because I'm contrary that way and stuck in my ways 🙂 

At ours, after ~75 minutes or so one/ several members may feel moved to offer up a testimony of how they experienced the silence ("I felt a great sense of support from Meeting today, and I am very grateful for that as I'm carrying a lot of heaviness"  or "the light from the candle really evoked for me the divine light in every one of us" or etc).  At the very end of the 90 minutes, the silence closes when a Meeting elder welcomes any newcomers, thanks everyone for coming, perhaps makes a couple announcements about upcoming Meeting events or social action efforts, and tells us where the coffee and muffins are.  No touching but a lot of eye contact and smiling. Truly, it's wonderful.

 

[Kidlit]

17 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah ... to hijack my own thread ... I may have been unrealistic when I thought I could become part of a church "family" where a high % of people go back generations.

It's not that people are mean or anything.  They're just ... strangers.

This morning I was thinking about some possible reasons.  The lead pastor I liked left, and a younger guy was hired. The new pastor did away with small group adult Sunday school.  That hour used to be pretty special to me for several reasons.  For one, it encouraged me, as an introvert, to participate in the discussions, which meant opening up and getting to know people I otherwise wouldn't talk to.  The new pastor instituted a church-wide Sunday School class (ages 13+) which he leads.  People like me don't participate, other than a few niceties to the others at our table.  They also stopped using the hymnal during 11am services.  You have to know the "contemporary" songs if you want to sing ... or get there at 8:30am for the traditional service (if that's even still a thing).  I happen to like singing the hymns.  😞

Theoretically, there are other Bible studies I could join during business hours or times when I'm doing family stuff.  But it's very hard for me to justify doing something for myself.  Sunday morning had its own built-in excuse.

Well ... I just need to figure this out.

This is a large part of my problem, too.  I miss Sunday school.  There are various other small group opportunities, but that dedicated hour on Sunday mornings was priceless to me.  Nothing will ever take its place. 

[QueenCat]

We've always had a passing of the peace, which can include handshakes, a verbal greeting, or if you've known someone for a while, a hug. When we move somewhere new and don't see this, we are left with a cold feeling & go on to check out another church. Obviously, different during covid, but that is no longer a criteria, at least for me. 

[ktgrok]

So I paid attention today at church after this thread. I hugged DH, the kids bolted up to the front for "young church" before I got a chance to hug them (today was "Splash Sunday School" to celebrate the end of summer/back to school so they were more eager than usual), the person on my right was busy talking to someone else, the person in front of me and to the right had her hands clasped in front of her so I just nodded rather than offering a hand shake. The women behind me leaned toward me a bit, so with that body language I offered a hand shake and they seemed eager to do that. Some said "peace be with you" and some said, "good morning". No hugs other than my own family.

Edited August 20, 2023 by ktgrok

[kirstenhill]

I was thinking about this thread today too...As an adult I've only ever attended non-liturgical churches (I attended a liturgical church for about a year as a young teen along with a friend and her family, but I don't remember it well).  These churches have all had children's classes/nursery that started after the start of the service - usually after the music/singing time.  So there's a natural break in the service as kids go to class, parents take younger kids to the nursery etc, and the sermon starts after that.  Usually the announcement from the stage is something like, "Kids are dismissed for their classes.  Say hi to someone near you or meet someone new.  We'll start with the sermon in five minutes."   So no expectation of physical contact, and but you might have to be strategic about being "busy" looking at your phone or something like that if you actively didn't want to talk to anyone.  It doesn't feel like an interruption per se, because there are two distinct phases to the service - music, then sermon.  I can definitely see how it wouldn't appeal to everyone, 

[PronghornD]

In our current church, we wave to the people on livestream (which is apparently a pretty big group), and then we wave to each other. I wasn't there before covid, so I don't know what they did in the old days.

[ktgrok]

42 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

I was thinking about this thread today too...As an adult I've only ever attended non-liturgical churches (I attended a liturgical church for about a year as a young teen along with a friend and her family, but I don't remember it well).  These churches have all had children's classes/nursery that started after the start of the service - usually after the music/singing time.  So there's a natural break in the service as kids go to class, parents take younger kids to the nursery etc, and the sermon starts after that.  Usually the announcement from the stage is something like, "Kids are dismissed for their classes.  Say hi to someone near you or meet someone new.  We'll start with the sermon in five minutes."   So no expectation of physical contact, and but you might have to be strategic about being "busy" looking at your phone or something like that if you actively didn't want to talk to anyone.  It doesn't feel like an interruption per se, because there are two distinct phases to the service - music, then sermon.  I can definitely see how it wouldn't appeal to everyone, 

Interesting. I'd say our UCC church is liturgicalish, lol. So we have announcements, an introit where we listen to a song, a hymn, a responsorial prayer, (I may have these out of order) and then the passing of the peace. During the passing of the peace time (just maybe 2 minutes) the kids go up to the front of the church for "young church" which is a message delivered by the youth minister to them, that usually is pretty insightful for us adults too. But short. Then the kids process out to Sunday School and we sing a "song of support" as they go - alternates between things like "This Little Light of Mine" or "All things Bright and Beautiful" or whatever. Then we have the readings from the Old and New Testament, then the sermon, offering (choir sings during that), prayer, and a final hymn. 

So the passing of the peace isn't very long, but does get a bit hectic with kids scrambling out of the pews. 

[Indigo Blue]

We visited a new church this morning. It was lovely. I saw someone I used to go to school with and later worked with. We were thrilled to see each other. I jumped up when she came toward me, and we hugged. 
 

The lady to our left introduced herself. She said “This is a quiet church, all except for me. I’ve been known to shout out! You are sitting in the loud section!” Then she laughed a warm laugh. She had kind eyes and was very endearing. 
 

Someone Dh knew came up and shook his hand. He eventually looked in my direction and shook my hand. 

The lady in front of me introduced herself. No handshake. Very sweet older lady. 
 

Many others greeted us warmly, but there were no other handshakes or hugs. There was no greeting thing during the service. I didn’t notice tons of hugs and handshakes between members. 
 

I liked it. We felt welcome and comfortable. 
 

The pastor was soft spoken, and I felt calm and peaceful when we left. (Just relating this observation. Not trying to say that loud pastors are “bad.”)

I’m not posting to argue any point. Only relating our experience today!

[Grace Hopper]

7 hours ago, Kidlit said:

This is a large part of my problem, too.  I miss Sunday school.  There are various other small group opportunities, but that dedicated hour on Sunday mornings was priceless to me.  Nothing will ever take its place. 

I miss Sunday school, too! Our current church only has the regular services, and seasonal evening weeknight studies. Small community groups also meet at different times during the week. But I do miss having an interactive small group study/discussion time on Sunday mornings before (or after) the worship service. 
 

Kind of a rabbit trail, but along the lines of sharing observations of our church services today, I was reminded of something I find really distracting. So many people - 99% men - sort of drape themselves over their spouses during the service. An arm across the shoulders, an arm across a lap to rest a hand on the other’s leg, a tight grip around the waist as we are standing to sing, that sort of thing. Heaven help me when someone in front of me starts massaging their partner’s shoulders or neck. 
 

Years ago I asked my husband not to touch me like that while at church, especially in singing and prayer time. As @popmom mentioned upthread, I don’t want to be distracted from my own engagement with the service. Call me quirky of prickly or whatever, it’s just something I find distracting during a church service. I mean, imo church is not a date. 

[ktgrok]

31 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

Kind of a rabbit trail, but along the lines of sharing observations of our church services today, I was reminded of something I find really distracting. So many people - 99% men - sort of drape themselves over their spouses during the service. An arm across the shoulders, an arm across a lap to rest a hand on the other’s leg, a tight grip around the waist as we are standing to sing, that sort of thing. Heaven help me when someone in front of me starts massaging their partner’s shoulders or neck. 
 

Huh. DH and I usually sit close, often touching or an arm around, and today I was rubbing his back about because it was spasming. I also often touch my kids if they are sitting near me, rub a hand over their head, etc. Never thought of it as a date or anything. 

[Grace Hopper]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Huh. DH and I usually sit close, often touching or an arm around, and today I was rubbing his back about because it was spasming. I also often touch my kids if they are sitting near me, rub a hand over their head, etc. Never thought of it as a date or anything. 

I imagine no one doing it thinks much of it, especially when it is parent to child. It’s just something that I, as a person sitting behind this at church, find distracting. 

[marbel]

56 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

I imagine no one doing it thinks much of it, especially when it is parent to child. It’s just something that I, as a person sitting behind this at church, find distracting. 

I know what you mean; I also find it distracting. I do see it as my problem. I don't touch my husband except maybe to hold his hand when we are sitting,  and once my kids didn't need help from me (redirecting if they got bored and were too wiggly, for ex), I didn't touch them either. I try not to move about unnecessarily in church or other places, like a theater, where there are people around me who might be distracted by it.