WWYD … long and random

[OH_Homeschooler]

Funny that this came up today, because I was marveling about how I had an old couch to get rid of, so I scheduled an appointment with Got Junk this morning, and they just left with my junk. 

I was married to someone like your DH. He refused to get rid of anything. And he insisted that we collect recycling, but there were no recycling pickup services available to us at the time. He promised he would run it to the recycling center regularly. He got all this stuff to create a recycling system in our garage. The recycling collected, and collected, and collected. Our garage became a literal trash heap. (I'm pro-recycling, but I was the one dealing with small kids most of the time while also working, so this was *his* project). 

It wasn't just that. For instance, he bought a beat-up pickup truck behind my back and paid for a storage unit for, well, I don't have a clue how long. Despite not being a mechanic, he was convinced he could fix it up. Actually, there was always a spare pickup in our driveway too that barely ever worked. I only learned about the secret truck during the divorce, when I noticed a bill for the storage service that he wasn't there to intercept. He also would never let me call someone to get anything fixed because he was going to do it. But of course, instead of fixing things around the house, he went out and bought trucks behind my back. The nice house we bought together a few years into our marriage was a wreck 10 years later because of all the unfinished projects.

So you see, it can be extremely freeing to be able to call a junk collector to pick up old stuff you no longer have a use for. I also found some other things in the garage to get rid of-things that were potentially usable but when I thought about it, I hadn't used them in years and probably never would.

Similarly, it sucks to have to call a plumber, but also it's nice to have a constantly running toilet fixed in a timely manner. 

Our divorce was for very serious reasons and I understand your reasons for not getting a divorce, but I love the idea of you separating and having your own space about which you can make your own decisions. Best of luck.

[Carol in Cal.]

Have you ever read the ‘dance’ books?  Ie ‘The Dance of Anger’ etc.

Those are more gentle approaches to making incremental changes, not so much like the relationship grenade ultimatum type.  I think they are useful in picturing small actions, and possible responses.

I personally find it difficult to keep projects on track if I can’t see them.  Out of sight, out of mind, is pretty much the way my mind works; so much so that if I’m doing a complex project involving a bunch of paperwork, I build out an organized clutter type layout of it on a large flat surface.  And in my house, there is really only one large flat surface—our dining room table.  We don’t have a kitchen table or a big work table anywhere else.  

Luckily I figured this out and have a big desk and a big conference room table to use at my office, but if I didn’t have that office I would move heaven and earth to set up a big work table for myself at home, so I could be visually triggered and get things done without cluttering up our dining room table.  I don’t know whether that dynamic is in play for you, but wanted to put it out there just in case.

 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

He isn't willing to get help - he doesn't think he has a problem. My standards are the problem in his mind. My mom was a hoarder (or had hoarding tendencies is maybe a better way to put it) and I've tried to express to him how triggering/upsetting/detrimental it is to my mental health. He counters that it's detrimental to his mental health NOT to have these projects because they are the only thing that make him happy. 

I can see that. My husband is a project oriented person. He can be an extraordinary mess maker, and at times, it has been hard to deal with for sure. I love him dearly, and he is my best friend. Thankfully, he hears me, and we find compromise. He had a room in the house and full use of the basement for storing all of his pieces parts. And if he wants the use of flat surfaces in the main part of our home, we set a time frame that is a reasonable compromise on how long he has to get that project done and the mess cleaned up OR I box it up and stash it in the basement.

I feel like, hate to say it, the best way to make your marriage work given that he is jot willing to compromise and doesn't hear you when you tell him the stress this causes, is to say that IF you are going to remain married and a part of each other's lives, the house must be sold and a duplex or something similar found like a house that also had an apartment, or the current house remodeled to give him and independent project space with an efficiency living quarters so that the two of you can function more independent of each other while also still having  time together, especially with the children. I don't think this is unreasonable.

[lauraw4321]

44 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I'm not sure I'd jump to a new therapist without just outright telling her that you think she was pushing you towards divorce as a solution, and that you didn't like it. As a professional therapist, she will recognize that *that's not therapy* and she wasn't successfully providing you with what you need. That should matter to her, and (unless she's actually incompetent or unethical) she should be able to make it right and continue if you want to.

I'm also not sure that she *did* imply that divorce was the best solution for you. I think she only said that *changing the situation* was a reasonable goal. Is it possible that you (like me, and like lots of other people) got a bit into the black-and-white weeds and thought, "The only change I can think of is abandoning the marriage, so that must be what she means."?

Because, like people here say, strategies like giving yourself permission to move his crap and not care too much if that upsets him -- that's a major change and a major risk. It involves the unknown. Like the unknown of: "What happens if I upset him, and he says so, and I don't apologize, and I just continue doing it knowing it's upsetting him?" -- I don't think that's marital territory you've ever been in before. I imagine it scares you.

(Ironically enough, it's not actually new territory for your marriage. He's been doing 'a thing' that upsets you for years. You tell him you're upset, he doesn't apologize, and he keeps doing it knowing it upsets you.)

And that's not the only strategy available that would totally change something major about your marriage and living situation without choosing divorce. There's lots. It's just that they are all really serious choices with really serious consequences. And lots of people really would rather stay in miserable circumstances that are familiar rather than take a leap like that. And (I bet your therapist would say too) that's a perfectly fine choice that lots of people make... it's just good to have the self-awareness to know you are making it, know why you are making it, and know that you did have other choices, and that you will continue to have other choices if you ever change your mind.

This was extremely helpful. Thank you. 

[rebcoola]

3 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

Ok, this blew my mind. I don’t know why I’ve never thought of this but this made me feel hopeful in a way I didn’t think I could. 

My mom used threaten to get a duplex so my dad could junk up his side and she could have her clean side

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by rebcoola

[lauraw4321]

8 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

My mom used threaten to get a duplex so my dad could junk up his side and she could have her clean side

 

How did that possibility or talk impact you as a kid?

[rebcoola]

It didnt bother me. I was going to be on the messy side to. 

Reading through more of the thread your DH seems more intractable about not cleaning or moving the mess.  

My dad makes messes and they dont bother him but if my mom asks him to clean up or clear a space for xyz reason he does. He sees the house as her domain.

[Carol in Cal.]

1 minute ago, rebcoola said:

It didnt bother me. I was going to be on the messy side to. 

Reading through more of the thread your DH seems more intractable about not cleaning or moving the mess.  

My dad makes messes and they dont bother him but if my mom asks him to clean up or clear a space for xyz reason he does. He sees the house as her domain.

It might be that what he is intractable about is being told what to do, or being judged when he’s just trying to help.  I mean, I don’t buy those views if he has them, but his version might not have much to do with the mess itself.  Also, it sounds like he is kind of immobilized himself, which is sometimes a sign of something else, like depression or anger or overwhelm.  

[Denise in IN]

11 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

Answering questions: yes, his ADHD is medicated. The garage is supposed to be the space he uses for his projects but it just doesn’t work out. 
 

I wouldn’t call him a wonderful husband and father. He provides, is loyal, and supports whatever I want to do (because I think he just doesn’t care). We have other issues I won’t put forward this publicly. When I talked to her I basically felt like I was a fool for not divorcing him. I’m so overwhelmingly sad now. 

You are not a fool for making a choice that you feel is best for your family.  You are in a hard situation, and in the absence of great options you are choosing the best of not great options.  You want a therapist who will support you in that, for sure.  But it's true that if you are stuck in the same complaints over a long period of time; there comes a point where you are choosing to stay "stuck". 

It seems like the mess/hoarding issues are just the part of the iceberg that's visible, but underlying that are huge communication and respect issues in your relationship.  I hope you are able to work through to find a place of peace and better functioning for you. You are valuable and worthy of living a life that brings you joy and satisfaction.

If this therapist isn't helping you toward that, please do get a new therapist who will support you in a way that brings hope.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Denise in IN
edited for clarity and additional thoughts, and typos

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It might be that what he is intractable about is being told what to do, or being judged when he’s just trying to help.  I mean, I don’t buy those views if he has them, but his version might not have much to do with the mess itself.  Also, it sounds like he is kind of immobilized himself, which is sometimes a sign of something else, like depression or anger or overwhelm.  

I think you are right that depression which begets irritability and anger, being stuck in a rut, could easily be part of the issue. Sadly,none of us can make another person get help.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Faith-manor

[lauraw4321]

10 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think you are right that depressive n which begets irritability and anger, being stuck in a rut, could easily be part of the issue. Sadly,none of us can make another person get help.

I strongly suspect depression linked to / caused by chronic pain he has. He has rejected those suggestions from me. 

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

Yeah, I get it. I regret marrying him. We met when I was 19. Married when I was 23. Never lived together. I didn't know what I was getting myself into until it was too late. But I made a promise to God, not just him. So yes, I have to deal with it. But ideas like living apart are great. And helping me feel my feelings and then move past them. She's helped with other things that cannot change - difficult relationship with my mom (who is now dead). So I don't know why she will discuss divorce WRT to him. 

He doesn't beat me. He doesn't cheat on me. He doesn't control me. He is funny. He loves his kids. He's a flawed human just like I am, so I need help figuring out how to move forward WITHOUT divorce. 

It is completely valid to tell the therapist that discussions of divorce are 100% forbidden and off the table. A good therapist will respect that.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

I strongly suspect depression linked to / caused by chronic pain he has. He has rejected those suggestions from me. 

I am so sorry. The whole situation stinks. But the one thing remains, you cannot force him to get care, and he does have a responsibility to get help and make his marriage better because he is capable of doing that. We can lead a horse to water...and all that jazz. So in the absence of any motivation on his part to try, I hope you will consider separating and forging space for yourself so you can be mentally healthy. This is very important for your children, even if they do not understand that at this time. My husband comes from a marriage in which there was NO way his dad was willing to work on his issues and have a less dysfunctional marriage, and all three children wish their mum had separated if not divorced. As an adult daughter in law, I can say that we ALL would have benefited from the two of them leading fairly separate lives. The dysfunction and mental issues of the unhealthy person, reticent to make an effort to get help, can end up eclipsing the whole family. We needed to be able to visit with her in long, "grandma gets to spend time with the grands" and has fun ways while also only seeing him in short bursts. Having them in the same shared space was a nightmare, and lead to her not getting such to spend much time with us or her grandkids when they were little. Please do not let that happen to you.

[Melissa Louise]

Just to address the therapy issue, I think you are missing an opportunity. 

In general, if a fairly mild set of comments from your therapist creates an outsize response, it's good to discuss it...in therapy.

That's often where breakthroughs in your own understanding of what you are doing, and the way your own patterns of thinking and feeling keep you stuck, happen. 

You are the only person therapy can help. It won't help your husband, or change him because he is not willing to be helped or changed. 

If I were you, I would seize this opportunity with the therapist and at the very least, raise what you've said here in session. "You MADE me feel depressed, you WANT me to get divorced." That's material a competent therapist can work with. 

And I guess I would also think to myself about why I might have a really strong need to project (disown in myself) the cause of depression or the desire to be apart from my husband.

 

 

[Condessa]

If his projects make him happy, the mess makes you unhappy, and divorce is not an option, then I think that efforts to contain the project mess are the way to go.  You have attempted to have the garage be his project area, and that hasn’t worked out.  Why do you think that is?  Does he work on his projects in other parts of the house because he likes to work on them near the rest of the family?  Because other spaces work better for specific projects for whatever reason?  Because he has filled his garage space with junk and so he migrated to new places rather than clearing space?
 

 It might be difficult with a full family needing to live in the house, but I think dedicating an area to be his space and an area to be your space is the best plan.  If I were you I would first talk to him about how I want to do this because I don’t like what the conflict is doing to our relationship and I want both of us to be able to be happy in our home, then set out to make his space as great for him and his projects as possible.  That might mean rearranging bedrooms to give him a room in the house to work, or either getting a storage shed or finding somewhere else to put garage storage items or putting up some kind of divider to separate his space from family storage space.  It would probably entail lots of storage, useful work surfaces, really good lighting, maybe a tool bench.  Basically make the room as perfectly functional and inviting as possible.  This is totally not your job, but starting out this project with a visible act of love and service can really help the next step to feel like “she wants me and her both to be happy” not “she’s treating my stuff like garbage”.
 

 The next step is using large storage bins as described upthread to label and put all his project items in the rest of the house into, then place them in his project space.  I would have the empty bins stacked against a wall where they are going to go when the room is first set up, and every day when you have your routine house pickup, projects out in the house go into a project storage bin and get placed where they go, in his project space.  I would not put them out near the trash.  But every time he gets home and goes to work on a project, all the supplies are once again in his nice bright convenient project workspace.

This is really not the way it should work.  He ought to be dealing with his own junk like a big boy.  But in real life I have found this to be the most effective way to initiate real change in relationships and to motivate other people to choose to change their behavior gradually over time.  Having open, sincere, loving conversations, going out of my way to seek to be supportive of the other party, and being willing to go above and beyond my own responsibilities in acts of service to others has been very effective in my life in softening hearts and making others grow to desire to serve me in return over time.  

After the habit of project stuff being returned to the project space during the daily routine is firmly established, other issues like the extra couch can be dealt with, but I wouldn’t try to do them at the same time.  In the couch situation, I would start out with organizing the public areas of the house as optimizing my workspace as a homemaker/homeschooling mom (don’t know if this applies to you) as we had already organized his project workspace, and approach it as “This room can’t support this much furniture, which one do you think we should move?” followed by “We have this spare couch, would you like to have it in your project room, or would that just clutter it up?”  I might also offer it to an older kid for their bedroom or something like that if it would be reasonable in your home setup before moving on to, “We have no space that works for the extra couch so I was planning on selling it/donating it/etc., but if you would prefer we can get a storage unit for it.  The one on __ street is $50 per month if we go that route.  What are your thoughts?”  

If he just reiterates that he wants to keep it and not get a storage unit, I would respond with, “Okay, where are you going to put it?” and when he says to leave it where it is I would tell him, “That doesn’t work for me.  I need to have a space in the home that works for me, too, and storing an extra couch that you don’t want cluttering up your personal space in my workspace isn’t a solution.”  If he can come up with another suggestion that might work, great, but otherwise I would come back to mentioning that I will arrange that storage unit if he prefers.  If nothing else happens and he doesn’t suggest any solutions, I might just recruit the kids to help me move it out of the room to somewhere like the carport or something “until he decides what he wants to do with it”.  At that point he either starts a big fight, comes up with a solution, or leaves it there.  If the second, problem solved, the third, it will eventually be ruined by mold/etc., and then it has to be thrown out anyway.  If the first, I would ask him to attend couples therapy or counseling with a religious leader out of concern for the health of the marriage.

[-----]

nm

Edited August 30 by kathyl

[Scarlett]

Having that project/mess in my house would really bug me too.  So I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable. 
 

I hope you find a solution.

 

Side note, your two round back chairs are just like my dining room chairs.  🙂

[Indigo Blue]

OP, is there a space or a room where he can move his things to with the understanding that that room and other common areas are off limits? Sorry if this has already been suggested in the thread. I’m sorry you are dealing with this. 

[scholastica]

OP, if you do decide to change therapists, you could see if a Marriage Friendly therapist is in your area. One person marital therapy can work. The therapists linked below work with people who want to preserve the marriage, even in difficult circumstances.
 

Marriage Friendly Therapists

[Bootsie]

I can relate to many things in your post.  DH has a tendency to let things pile up.  There have been times our dining room table looked like yours and he would fix dinner and say "Let's eat!"--with it never phasing him.  He may his plate on top of the mess.  Or, sit in a chair holding his plate.  I would say, "There isn't even room for my plate" and his solution would be to push the mess over--making it even more scrambled.  DH is also out of touch with how much "stuff" he has--philosophically he thinks he is a minimalist, but he was an only child, his mother was an only child, and his great aunt (who collected knick knacks) never had children; his grandfather who was a carpenter retired early and "made things" (like little wooden bird cages) while his grandmother did china painting.  We have inherited ALL of their things; DH wants to save them all for the grandchildren some day but doesn't see them as "his things" because he did not buy them.   

DH also came from a background much different from mine of how you handle such situations.  My in-laws had two condos next door to each other; in addition they had a lake house about 45 minutes away and a maid that took care of most things in all three places.  DH had never seen a disagreement (and likewise never a discussion of how to handle things or compromise).  

DH and I have tried a number of different approaches over the years.  We had a housecleaner for a while, we have rented storage units, DH rented an office space where he could go and work on his projects alone, we have designated parts of the house that are his and parts that are mine.  One problem I kept coming back to was most solutions gave DH his space to keep how he wanted without my complaints, but what I was wanting was not a place for myself that no one disturbed.  I wanted a clean, neat functional kitchen, a dining room where the family could eat, a family room that company could sit in and enjoy.  What worked best for me was to start with very specific and small requests--keeping all of the area around the kitchen sink clean and clear--and when that was being accomplished adding--the kitchen island needs to be clear of dishes and trash-- and when habits for both of those were established expanding to the dining room table.  I would have to ignore the fact that the items had been moved from the dining room table to the dining room floor, but I could focus on the fact that progress was being made--and DH was much more cooperative when I wasn't complaining about the kitchens sink, the dining room table, the garage, the laundry room... and he had one area to focus his attention on.  

I know how frustrating it can be.  In our case, it has taken us many years of marriage to get to a better place on this issue--sometimes requiring a much greater compromise on my part and I am sure there were times a much greater compromise on DH's part.  I hope that you are able to come up with some tolerable solutions.  

 

[KungFuPanda]

Did she advise you to divorce or are you upset that, in the course of therapy, you’re struggling to find good reasons to stay?  If she’s getting you to ask yourself hard and vital questions, that’s not the mark of a bad therapist with poor rapport. It’s her job to help you solve problems, not to happily ignore them. You seem more trapped by religious and social pressure and facing that is upsetting. If you’re not being loved or respected why wouldn’t you start reevaluating your life? Once you start feeling disgust it’s hard to go back. Living with a hoarder starts somewhere and they don’t stay in their zones. Where do you want to be in two years?

From what I understand, hoarding is more of an OCD thing. Those ADHD project people have the ability to eventually clean up the project mess and eventually get rid of stuff; they just put it off for a ridiculously long time.  With OCD and hoarding they will get rid of nothing and freak out, or even gaslight you, if you attempt a conversation. The couch you raised your kids on is not a family heirloom, it’s just a gross old couch full of drool.

[ktgrok]

As someone with ADHD I apologize on his behalf. Thankfully both my husband and I are like this, although it stresses me out more than him. A compromise would be having certain areas that are 100% clutter free. Having one main room not like this can help the stress you feel, and having strict black and white boundaries will be more likely to work than expecting him to not leave stuff out. Create staging areas, and get some decent looking bins to shove stuff in. 

[Not_a_Number]

I didn’t read all the posts, so my apologies if I’m repeating things.

There’s ADHD and there’s disrespect. This sounds like lack of respect to me.

I had a similar dynamic in my marriage and did wind up changing it. (Fingers crossed it’s stable now — it took a while.) I didn’t want to divorce, either, for similar reasons — not the religious parts, but the other stuff.

It was REALLY hard to change. Dynamics are sticky — people get stuck in grooves. It’s more common than not to have the same problems 2 years in. (Boo to your therapist for being judgmental! I’d get a different therapist, frankly.)

Happy to relate anything that helps. Hugs.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

Thinking about it some more… other posters are right that you should bring this up with your therapist, and that your strong reaction here is a sign of unhappiness with your marriage and not exactly about the therapist. It’s worth talking about with her.

That being said, therapists are people, and talking to people who are having trouble understanding the trade offs you make can be frustrating and depressing. Personally, I prefer if someone both understands and challenges me, although I find that rare and have not, overall, found it in therapy. I have, however, occasionally found it on this forum.

[maize]

20 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

I could, but then he gets really upset because the garage is supposed to be "his space" and that's disrespecting his space. I've offered several times to get a storage facility. I don't want to AT ALL but it seems like a decent compromise. 

I have ADHD and managing stuff is really hard. There are a lot of components to that--in my case one is a lack of visual memory, so if something isn't in sight I don't know where it is. Another huge contributer to clutter is that my brain freezes up with decision making--the decision of where to put something,  or the decision of what to get rid up. Those things are anxiety-provoking to me just like having clutter around is anxiety-provoking to you. 

We have a smallish house with a lot of people, and I was completely incapable of managing stuff in a non-cluttered way. I ended up having a decent sized shed built near the house and that is where stuff that isn't in regular use in the house lives. 

My husband isn't delighted about this--he's a true minimalist and the fact that the stuff is there sitting largely unused bothers him. But it's out of sight and not cluttering our living areas. 

I do periodically go out there and declutter and get rid of stuff--the difference to me is that I can choose to spend a day going through stuff and making decisions at a time when my brain isn't overwhelmed. When I'm in the thick of things managing the household and my brain can't handle decision making I will literally go through the house with a bag or bin and just dump all the clutter into it, then carry that out to the shed to be dealt with later. 

If later never happened and clutter piled up indefinitely this would just turn into a hoarder shed and not really a workable solution, but I do periodically go through stuff. It works for me. The shed also only works well because we are in a dry climate so there's no humidity or mold to destroy stuff. In a humid climate you'd need something climate-controlled like a designated storage room. 

For many people, it is easier to get rid of stuff if we know it is going to someone else who needs it. Would it be at all motivating to your husband to tie into local organizations that help people in need? Maybe getting rid of furniture is hard but donating it to a local refugee family would be easier?

[Farrar]

I read through most of this thread and am thinking about it...

It strikes me that you keep saying he doesn't control you, yet you're clearly afraid to lay down the line on some of these things. It almost feels to me like he doesn't have to control you because you're controlling yourself. You're clearly holding back your anger. You do have the ability use some of the more practical leaning suggestions in this thread to reorganize or reimagine your space and then just enforce it. Your boundary is that if any of these projects or mess or clutter are left in the rooms that are supposed to stay clean, then you will remove it all to the spaces that are designated for projects. And then you can actually do it. 

I think the question I'm left with is what the consequences of that will be? Presumably he'd be mad. But he's already upset every time you complain. Would this be worse somehow? Can you live with the consequences of enforcing a boundary?

[lauraw4321]

Update: we had a conversation last night. I think he maybe understands how negatively the house is affecting me. We’re getting a storage unit for now for the couch and I’m sure more things. He’s agreed I can hire a professional organizer to help because it’s beyond my ability. 
 

He wants to move to a bigger house or build an addition. I’m hesitant to make a huge financial investment and end up in the same place (mess everywhere). I told him I’d consider that if we still think we need more space after an organizer helps us. 
I told him I want to move out. I’ve decided that I will move out if things are still like this when youngest (4th grade) goes to college (didn’t tell him that, but knowing it gives me hope). 

He said he loves me, wants to be with me, etc.  I don’t really believe it. He says I take things he says in one context too seriously - discussing him saying he won’t really change.  🤷‍♀️

I’m unsure whether I’ll go back to therapist at this point. I don’t have an appointment for 2 weeks so I have some time to decide. He (understandably) doesn’t want me to. 

[maize]

Hiring an organizer is a great idea.

Things are much better around here when I can afford to hire someone to help with housekeeping. I'm just so bad at it, even though I put in plenty of time!

Hiring help with things that overwhelm us, whatever they are, is a fantastic investment. 

[lauraw4321]

Oh and he says he’s going to clean off the DR table today. We’ll see. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I do periodically go out there and declutter and get rid of stuff--the difference to me is that I can choose to spend a day going through stuff and making decisions at a time when my brain isn't overwhelmed. When I'm in the thick of things managing the household and my brain can't handle decision making I will literally go through the house with a bag or bin and just dump all the clutter into it, then carry that out to the shed to be dealt with later. 

If later never happened and clutter piled up indefinitely this would just turn into a hoarder shed and not really a workable solution, but I do periodically go through stuff. It works for me.

This is really practical. I tend to do some version of this, and there are times when things are stressful that my decision making shuts down, or more properly stated, it's overwhelmed. I am actually a pretty decisive person, but at some point you just get worn out, and when my kids were younger, especially, I was the one who made all.the.decisions. It was awful.

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I read through most of this thread and am thinking about it...

It strikes me that you keep saying he doesn't control you, yet you're clearly afraid to lay down the line on some of these things. It almost feels to me like he doesn't have to control you because you're controlling yourself. You're clearly holding back your anger. You do have the ability use some of the more practical leaning suggestions in this thread to reorganize or reimagine your space and then just enforce it. Your boundary is that if any of these projects or mess or clutter are left in the rooms that are supposed to stay clean, then you will remove it all to the spaces that are designated for projects. And then you can actually do it. 

I think the question I'm left with is what the consequences of that will be? Presumably he'd be mad. But he's already upset every time you complain. Would this be worse somehow? Can you live with the consequences of enforcing a boundary?

Not to sidetrack too much, but that consequence to a boundary sounds very dissatisfying. Is it just me? Does cleaning up after someone actually prompt some kind of change/reflection?

I don't think there is anything wrong with this if the OP likes the idea and finds that it helps her get what she needs, but for me, it would be just trading one problem for another. 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Not to sidetrack too much, but that consequence to a boundary sounds very dissatisfying. Is it just me? Does cleaning up after someone actually prompt some kind of change/reflection?

I don't think there is anything wrong with this if the OP likes the idea and finds that it helps her get what she needs, but for me, it would be just trading one problem for another. 

I don't think that's a sidetrack at all. But I think it assumes something that I don't at all. It assumes that the ultimate goal of this is to change him. To prompt some kind of change/reflection. But she can't do that. The only thing she can do is change her own behavior. She can't change him or force him to change how he sees it. I do think systems can have an impact on how people behave, so it's not impossible that a better system could change the dynamics. But he's really dug in. He doesn't want to change and sees his view as the right one. He has little respect for her view and has repeatedly indicated an unwillingness to try to see it more clearly or honor her needs. So then that route is closed. In my mind, it's totally kaput.

But I also find having to then do the labor of cleaning dissatisfying. But what are her options? As I see it, she can only control herself. So she can:

1. develop a zen attitude so you can just live with it
2. try more systems, therapies, etc. to make him change his mind (but knowing, these may have zero payoff - he does not want to change)
3. clean it up yourself

For me, the final one would be the one that was ultimately the best of three not great options. I appreciate the people posting links about organizing and different approaches to organizing. I think they could be of some use. But they could also send her down a rabbit hole of thinking that if she could just establish the "right" organization system then it would all work. But the thing is, that implies that she can change him. She can't. He is who he is. Accepting that means taking control of the things she can control and not waiting for some resolution that's outside her control.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

This is really practical. I tend to do some version of this, and there are times when things are stressful that my decision making shuts down, or more properly stated, it's overwhelmed. I am actually a pretty decisive person, but at some point you just get worn out, and when my kids were younger, especially, I was the one who made all.the.decisions. It was awful.

Not to sidetrack too much, but that consequence to a boundary sounds very dissatisfying. Is it just me? Does cleaning up after someone actually prompt some kind of change/reflection?

I don't think there is anything wrong with this if the OP likes the idea and finds that it helps her get what she needs, but for me, it would be just trading one problem for another. 

Personally, I’d have to work pretty hard to come up with something I could control that also does not make me resentful. If I’m resentful, it doesn’t help shift the system at all.

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Personally, I’d have to work pretty hard to come up with something I could control that also does not make me resentful. If I’m resentful, it doesn’t help shift the system at all.

I get that. But at least the resentment is in your control? I know it doesn't feel that way. And saying that can feel like letting the other person on the hook for behavior that's genuinely not okay.

But I also think there's something freeing about deciding that you're in change of yourself and your own reactions and actions and that when you're in a stuck relationship with someone, you simply cannot expect anything of them. I've never had this with my partner and I get that lots of people in this thread have, so there's that. But I've certainly had family members that I've had bad relationships with. And I've found it freeing to realize that I have no control over them and nothing I do can make them respect me, understand me, or want to give a ****. It changes how I act and sometimes lets me like them more and enjoy them more because I no longer believe anything can change. So I can just appreciate who they are and protect myself and my needs.

Obviously I hope Laura and her dh find the solutions that are best for them. I think it's hopeful that they're hiring an organizer and that he showed a bit more willingness to understand her perspective. But also, it may be that the best solution is a larger home that's completely subdivided so they can live both apart and together. Maybe the best future is one where she lets him be himself and lets go of the resentment... because she has control over her space and her life in ways that matter more to her than trying to change his behavior in such a way that the marriage works in a traditional way.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Farrar

[Not_a_Number]

22 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I get that. But at least the resentment is in your control? I know it doesn't feel that way. And saying that can feel like letting the other person on the hook for behavior that's genuinely not okay.

For me, thinking about what will feel good is how I manage resentment. It’s an important step for me. (And yes, it can lead to acceptance of things I wouldn’t have initially liked. I see your point in this instance.)

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

 

Not to sidetrack too much, but that consequence to a boundary sounds very dissatisfying. Is it just me? Does cleaning up after someone actually prompt some kind of change/reflection?

For my husband and kids it does. We met in college and my husband knew the kitchen is my territory as in do not clutter the kitchen else I have a hard time cooking. He was able to “respect” that rule. We all agreed that the dining room is his hoarding area. So if he left stuff (other than his cellphone) on my kids study table, they know they can just dump the item into the dining room no questions asked. My kids would joke about charging rent when my husband leave his cellphone on their study table.

It take years for my husband to form or break a habit. It took him a few years to get into the habit of putting his stuff into the dining room. 

[katilac]

3 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

 I’m unsure whether I’ll go back to therapist at this point. I don’t have an appointment for 2 weeks so I have some time to decide. He (understandably) doesn’t want me to. 

You should definitely go back. 

One, it's too controlling if you don't go back even in part bc dh doesn't want you to. 

Two, it sends a strong message to dh that you are serious and not backing down. 

Three, I think it would be very beneficial to tell your therapist exactly what you're telling us (if you didn't at the time): it feels like your goal is to convince me to divorce and I don't want to get divorced, where do we go from here? 

Four, the therapist isn't in control of your life, they can't make you do anything. so there's no reason to not go back at least once and try to hash out what she's saying versus what you are hearing. 

Is the therapist saying that the only way you can make the leap to increased happiness is divorce? Or is she pointing out that you've been stuck in a miserable circumstance for a long time, and the only way out you can see is divorce? 

Did the conversation push you back into depression, or did a recognition of the intractableness of the situation push you back into depression? 

You say that messiness is not grounds for divorce, but is messiness the problem? Or more: 

• He refuses to see a therapist/counselor bc he refuses to admit he's doing anything that negatively affects you and the family.
•  He speaks and reacts in a disrespectful manner. 
• He gets angry at things like family items being stored in 'his' space - do you have a space as big as a garage for nothing but your own stuff? If so, does he leave it alone?

In my world, the shed and and his office are dh's space and the spare room is my space, but that doesn't mean we get angry if family items are stored there. It means we set up the room the way we like and that we control the way storage is used, and yes, most of the stuff in there is his/mine, but we don't get angry about storing family items in 'our' spaces. 

You say he gets angry because camping items are stored in 'his' space, but moving those wouldn't solve the problem, would it? Bc if putting them in the house somewhere would contain his messes to the garage, you would have done that long ago, but you know all it would actually do is bring more stuff into the house without him bringing stuff out of the house. 

I know you think the kids would be devastated by a divorce, and I'm not saying they wouldn't be, but please don't underestimate the harm that can result from growing up with angry, irritable, and depressed parents. Just as you are affected by his actions and emotions, so are the kids.

It seems like anger is a go-to response for him. Being "pissed off" because camping items are stored in the garage, or because kids toss cans and miss the recycling, seems a bit much to me. Camping gear is a family item that naturally goes in the garage (and again, if it would solve the overall problem, I'm sure you would move it in a hot minute). The tossing of cans is annoying, to be sure, but repeatedly correcting behavior is part of parenting. And does he not see the irony of being annoyed at the mess they're making, lol? 

Look, I'm not saying get divorced, but I am saying that the current setup seems like an intractable situation that he has very little interest in changing. I would not add on the house or buy a bigger house, bc you will have the same problem in a bigger area. It would need to be the duplex idea to have a chance of working, I think (or something similar, anything with separate spaces that are divided by doors and walls and locks, with NO common areas and no seeing his space). 

Before you decide on things like a duplex, why not rent an apartment? It would solve the immediate problem of living in the mess 24/7, and give you both literal and figurative breathing space to figure things out. It sounds like you guys are in a persistent, negative loop, and it can be really hard to figure out what parts of that are due to practical things like the mess, versus what parts are more fundamental and emotional. 

You could still spend time at the house, even daily if you wish, but you'd have a retreat and control over your space. You could go to the house for movie night, he could come to the apartment for dinner at your lovely cleared-off table. I think your kids are of an age to come and go from the house and the apartment, but you can always spell that out if needed. 

[katilac]

55 minutes ago, Farrar said:

But I also think there's something freeing about deciding that you're in change of yourself and your own reactions and actions and that when you're in a stuck relationship with someone, you simply cannot expect anything of them. I've never had this with my partner and I get that lots of people in this thread have, so there's that. But I've certainly had family members that I've had bad relationships with. And I've found it freeing to realize that I have no control over them and nothing I do can make them respect me, understand me, or want to give a ****. It changes how I act and sometimes lets me like them more and enjoy them more because I no longer believe anything can change. So I can just appreciate who they are and protect myself and my needs.

But you don't live with those people. You're not trying to build a life with those people. 

With other family members, the above description would result in a distant relationship for me - no, scratch that, it would result in distant interactions, no relationship, which wouldn't work for me in a marriage. 

Understanding me is not a requirement for a loving and close relationship (no one can make themselves understand me), but accepting me and my decisions in spite of not understanding me/them is. And if they don't respect me or give a flip about me? Pleasant greetings and small talk at family functions we both attend area going to be about the extent of it.

I can't imagine having an actual relationship with someone who doesn't respect me or care about me, so I don't see how that approach works for a marriage. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, katilac said:

But you don't live with those people. You're not trying to build a life with those people. 

I think that’s the key point.

I find this kind of dynamic much easier given more distance. With someone you are supposed to coparent and build a life with, the number of things that do not work given a lack of respect is REALLY large. 

[katilac]

13 minutes ago, katilac said:

 I know you think the kids would be devastated by a divorce, and I'm not saying they wouldn't be, but please don't underestimate the harm that can result from growing up with angry, irritable, and depressed parents. Just as you are affected by his actions and emotions, so are the kids.

Quoting myself to add that it wouldn't hurt to ask the kids if they'd like to try therapy (sorry if I missed this being discussed already). 

Hey, you know how mom sees a therapist to talk about things? If you ever want to talk to somebody about your feelings or anything else, kids can go to therapy also. If you ever think you want to do that, let me know. 

[marbel]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

But I also find having to then do the labor of cleaning dissatisfying. But what are her options? As I see it, she can only control herself. So she can:

1. develop a zen attitude so you can just live with it
2. try more systems, therapies, etc. to make him change his mind (but knowing, these may have zero payoff - he does not want to change)
3. clean it up yourself

For me, the final one would be the one that was ultimately the best of three not great options. I appreciate the people posting links about organizing and different approaches to organizing. I think they could be of some use. But they could also send her down a rabbit hole of thinking that if she could just establish the "right" organization system then it would all work. But the thing is, that implies that she can change him. She can't. He is who he is. Accepting that means taking control of the things she can control and not waiting for some resolution that's outside her control.

This is where I am. I live with a lot of mess, clutter, stuff out of place. I knew about the tendency prior to marriage and I made the decision to live with it. Was it the right decision 28 years later? I mostly think so. I think in my case there is ADHD, a scarcity mindset - "never know when I'll need this cable!" so cliche - and perfectionism - "I can't do this perfectly right now but I'll do it when I can" which may end up being never. 

I've tried the organization systems but it only proved to be a waste of my time. If a person doesn't see a problem, no system is going to work. 

In my case, I do the cleaning up. I'll box stuff up and put it in his space. We used to have a lot of company, so that helped with the "public" rooms. Now, we don't so much, but I just demand that certain rooms are enjoyable *for me* and that means I can walk through without having to maneuver around stuff, I have a place to sit, the tables are clear for my coffee cup, there is a place to rest my eyes, etc. It has taken a long time for him to understand the stress clutter adds to my life. He grew up in a messy cluttered house and now our kids have too. I hate that part of it - my kids. But they also know that it doesn't have to be that way. I've talked a lot about this with my kids. But in my case anyway, there have been benefits that outweigh the costs. And there are no negative consequences to me moving stuff as long as I don't get rid of it. 

Actually, that last bit I think has helped me. I don't get rid of anything that belongs to anyone else in the house, no matter how stupid, pointless, etc., I think it is. The fact that he knows this and trust me to respect his stuff, even when I think it needs to go, has I think increased his respect for my wishes. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by marbel

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

But you don't live with those people. You're not trying to build a life with those people. 

With other family members, the above description would result in a distant relationship for me - no, scratch that, it would result in distant interactions, no relationship, which wouldn't work for me in a marriage. 

Understanding me is not a requirement for a loving and close relationship (no one can make themselves understand me), but accepting me and my decisions in spite of not understanding me/them is. And if they don't respect me or give a flip about me? Pleasant greetings and small talk at family functions we both attend area going to be about the extent of it.

I can't imagine having an actual relationship with someone who doesn't respect me or care about me, so I don't see how that approach works for a marriage. 

I agree with you. In the case of my husband's niece, they remain legally married, they do not have a marriage. They manage to equitably raise their child, but do not have a relationship with each other beyond their child. They do things like family Christmas, family birthdays, family vacation to D.W. or wherever. They make memories for his sake, and give him a stable home with each living in their own half of the duplex. When he is grown, I do not imagine them spending time together except when he requests it...family funerals, weddings, his birthday maybe. I have no idea if they will stay married once he is raised. Right now it works very well to have their own arrangement and not involve the legal system in order to dissolve their marriage. But, she works and has her own retirement savings so finances later are not an issue she needs to think about.

I am a VERY relationship oriented person so it would be hard for me to do it. However, I can see it working temporarily if both parties are amenable. In the case of the OP, I don't think he truly cares much about her feelings, does not respect her, and feels he doesn't have to respect her because he knows she won't leave while they have a child at home. He is resting on his laurels. If he doesn't care about the quality of their relationship, and he can continue to treat her this way while having all his needs taken care of, housework, laundry, groceries, cooking, childcare, etc. he may be very content to continue to not give a crap.

OP one thing I urge you to do if you have not already done so is to get a job even if it is only part time, evenings when he is home with your 4th grader, or some work remote data processing something. Open an account in your name only, and have some spending money for you and some savings. It is important if you are contemplating living separately to get used to having your own money and budgeting it out, setting goals, etc. If you are already working, then just disregard this advice.

Beyond that, kids are not clueless to the tensions and relationship dysfunction of their parents. A lot of people think staying together for the sake of the kids is admirable. However, there are situations where this is definitely not the case. So spend some times contemplating that. Can you get him to create an equitable arrangement that will diffuse the tension enough to be worth staying until youngest graduates? If not, think about that impact. Are there mitigations? If not, is it healthy to continue to be under the same roof?

[Farrar]

36 minutes ago, katilac said:

But you don't live with those people. You're not trying to build a life with those people. 

With other family members, the above description would result in a distant relationship for me - no, scratch that, it would result in distant interactions, no relationship, which wouldn't work for me in a marriage. 

Understanding me is not a requirement for a loving and close relationship (no one can make themselves understand me), but accepting me and my decisions in spite of not understanding me/them is. And if they don't respect me or give a flip about me? Pleasant greetings and small talk at family functions we both attend area going to be about the extent of it.

I can't imagine having an actual relationship with someone who doesn't respect me or care about me, so I don't see how that approach works for a marriage. 

I agree and disagree here. Like, I totally take your point. And I absolutely have not been in this situation, which I acknowledged from my post. I ALSO would not stay in a marriage with those parameters. I don't have a moral objection to divorce, so after doing this work for years, which she's already done, I would leave. End stop.

I think this is why Laura's therapist told her to go get a divorce. I feel like what Laura is essentially saying here is that she has tried to have a "loving and close relationship" where she is respected and it has only resulted in her getting hurt. It takes two to tango. Her husband has mostly refused to tango. How do you make a grown autonomous person tango? Well, the short answer is that you simply can't.

She's going to stay married regardless. So then how can she protect herself? Is the best way to protect herself and her mental health to continue to do things to try and change her dh even though over the course of multiple years that has had almost no impact? Or is the best way for her to step back, stop trying to establish the type of marriage that fulfills societal expectations and instead do the things she needs to do to have the space and life she needs? That's why I think living separately is probably ideal. She's not going to leave. He's not going to change. So then the duplex of two people who are partnered in some ways and not in others seems like a positive solution to me. Is that the marriage she wants? Deserves? Society says is how it "should" be? What you or I would personally accept? No. But it still might be the better solution for her.

[Farrar]

32 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

OP one thing I urge you to do if you have not already done so is to get a job even if it is only part time, evenings when he is home with your 4th grader, or some work remote data processing something. Open an account in your name only, and have some spending money for you and some savings. It is important if you are contemplating living separately to get used to having your own money and budgeting it out, setting goals, etc. If you are already working, then just disregard this advice.

QFT.

She says that he hasn't ever mistreated her, which I totally believe. But if she's going to make any changes that push on his behavior at all -- which we all agree to various extents in this thread that she really needs to do -- then while she is unwilling to leave him, he might leave her. OP, I think you should just envision that possibility and take steps to protect yourself in various ways. Assuming he doesn't leave you, these won't be wasted steps because it seems like you need more autonomy in general, even within the confines of staying married.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that one of the challenges in this situation is that it has gone on for so long, and is so entrenched, that it is hard to get his attention onto it right now.  What makes this urgent right now?  

I don't have a good answer to that, and I think it is one of things that is really important to figure out in order to drive real action.

Barring that, I think my inclination would be to pick one place, and clear it.  Without talking about it.  Into a box or crate.  And if questioned, say cheerfully and nonjudgementally, I am not willing to eat at a cluttered table anymore.  It makes me miserable.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  And really pick  that one spot carefully for its importance to me, thinking about it like "If I could just pick one thing to improve, what would it be?"  That's the kind of small, incremental change that those 'Dance' books would recommend, and they create space for what you need while not throwing a big fat relationship grenade into the situation.

[katilac]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

 1. develop a zen attitude so you can just live with it
2. try more systems, therapies, etc. to make him change his mind (but knowing, these may have zero payoff - he does not want to change)
3. clean it up yourself

 

8 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I agree and disagree here. <big snip>

That's why I think living separately is probably ideal.  <snip>

Even in the context of him not changing, these are very different suggestions. 

 The three in the first post are giving in to keep peace, and resigning yourself to forever living in a situation that you find miserable. The OP would be doing all the sacrificing and all the work. 

The second post at least results in a more peaceful, and certainly more pleasant, living situation. I'm on board with this and even suggested getting an apartment right now. 

I think having her own space would clear away a lot of the metaphorical clutter, not just the physical. It would help her to see if this particular issue is a psychological sticking point for him that he really does struggle with controlling, or if he is disrespectful in different ways once this way is removed. And it might jolt him into a willingness to seek help (although separate living spaces would probably still be a great idea, they might be able to have a better relationship if he is willing to work at it). 

Should the problem truly be that a person is never going to respect or give a flip about their spouse, the relationship part of the marriage would pretty much be over for me. If I had my reasons for staying married, it would most definitely not be under the conditions of living with them and just giving up on what I want; it would be separate living spaces, 100%. That's a huge difference to me. 

That's theoretical, though, in the sense that I don't think we can definitely say that OP's dh doesn't respect her or care for her. He's acting disrespectfully, yes, but I don't regard that in the same way as I do a person who deliberately looks for ways to be disrespectful no matter the situation (see: many of the inlaw threads, lol). Making big changes would give him a chance to show if he can respect her in other situations or not. 

I mentioned that I think they are in a negative loop - depression can feed upon depression, and they might be weighing each down in ways that they wouldn't if they lived apart. Even if they don't visibly complain or 'act depressed,' some people's depression can have an almost physical force to it, leading to a really oppressive atmosphere. And it doesn't help to stay in that atmosphere and get pulled under.

It's also possible that they are just truly incompatible when it comes to living together, and that living apart would let them enjoy each other in a way they cannot when in the same space. 

 

 

 

[lauraw4321]

34 minutes ago, Farrar said:

QFT.

She says that he hasn't ever mistreated her, which I totally believe. But if she's going to make any changes that push on his behavior at all -- which we all agree to various extents in this thread that she really needs to do -- then while she is unwilling to leave him, he might leave her. OP, I think you should just envision that possibility and take steps to protect yourself in various ways. Assuming he doesn't leave you, these won't be wasted steps because it seems like you need more autonomy in general, even within the confines of staying married.

I work full time and make as much or more than him. I’ve been in school to change careers to being a teacher but I think I need to put that on hold and continue to focus on my lucrative (but disliked) career to continue to be financially independent. I have a savings account he doesn’t have access to and it’s well-funded. Also my own retirement, etc. I don’t think he would leave me though. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I would question whether getting a separate apartment would be viewed as a relationship building move.  In my world, the husband would see this as her leaving him, or at least laying the groundwork for that.  It is the first move in a separation, so it's fraught.  I would not want to send that signal lightly.

[-----]

3 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I would question whether getting a separate apartment would be viewed as a relationship building move.  In my world, the husband would see this as her leaving him, or at least laying the groundwork for that.  It is the first move in a separation, so it's fraught.  I would not want to send that signal lightly.

Yes, this is exactly how my own dh would view it.  And he would 'plan' accordingly, I'm sure.  No idea what OP dh would do, but I would definitely be careful with that.

However, something like a house with a walk-out basement where one could live separately but together would be another story.  Nobody has 'left', IOW.

We once rented a house that had a basement apartment with kitchen and full bathroom and everything.  The washer and dryer were in the shared area in the basement.  That might work for OP.

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I would question whether getting a separate apartment would be viewed as a relationship building move.  In my world, the husband would see this as her leaving him, or at least laying the groundwork for that.  It is the first move in a separation, so it's fraught.  I would not want to send that signal lightly.

It’s tricky.

I did have to live apart from DH to fix things. We needed the space. But I had to figure out how to do this while being completely clear that I wanted to work things out.

ETA: it’s a different situation, though, since I was also willing to leave if we didn’t get our relationship on a basis of mutual respect.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[lauraw4321]

I’m not moving out any time soon. I need that idea to give me hope. I know there’s an end date to this, if it never improves. 
 

DH spent all day cleaning off table. He also spent all day in a terrible mood. My in-laws and dad are coming here tonight to celebrate my oldest’s birthday. At least there’s a lot of distraction.