I hate feeling like a Karen. Carrie is close enough.

[Farrar]

My context is really different from the OP's, so some of this may not apply. I'm in a city. We had to call the cops on someone two weeks ago because she stood on our steps yelling at us for long enough to wake us up. After about another half hour, we called the police. We did not know her, but she was convinced the guy who had given her a certain STI lived here. She screamed the name of the STI over and over. A couple months ago, I watched someone shot and nearly bleed out across the street. It was one of the more disturbing things I've seen here. Basically, I'm just saying... my context is different.

But I've had to come to two conclusions. First, I had to decide that either something is serious enough for me to call the cops or it's not. And if it's not, it's not serious enough for me to anything about it. Which is not to say that I ignore my instincts exactly, but I'm not as sold as everyone else on the whole gift of fear. That gift of fear is shaped by societal forces that can really be out of whack with reality and used to victimize people. That gift of fear and then a subsequent overreaction to a gut instinct coupled with entitlement is what makes Karens Karens in the first place. So I definitely have learned over time to try and interrogate my instincts a little. And to let go of some need to control what others do. I've been the victim of a lot of low level crap here, but the likelihood that someone is going to actually try to hurt me, particularly while I'm in my own home, is just really low. And, like, it's definitely not worth trying to deter a porch pirate to go outside and chase someone down and risk my life (or dh his). And, honestly, it's not even worth calling the cops. Like, if I called the cops every time someone looked mildly suspicious or did something weird outside my door, I'd be on the phone all the time. So I have to filter everything through that lens of asking, is this really so bad I need the police? And if not, put it aside, let it go, ignore and live and let live. And I'm glad I do. 

Second, more recently, I've had to just decide I was going to live with the fact that there's no way to be a white woman in America and not be seen as a Karen no matter what you do. I have a lot of thoughts about this - while I think that the actions of white women in America are grounded in a lot of long term racial privilege that have been deeply weaponized, the fact that white women and not white men have become the face of racism is definitely intentional and I'm not a fan. I think it's a divisive thing that's not helping anyone. It's just fostering resentment. I don't think it's helping anyone interrogate their own instincts and it definitely doesn't acknowledge all the ways that women of all races legitimately get victimized by crime and assault and harassment. So you basically have two choices - never, ever complain, even when **** is going down and you're potentially in danger, or risk being seen as a Karen. It's entirely out of your control. The other day, I was at the movies and my seat was broken and I complained and I thought, welp, I'm a Karen. I didn't try to get anyone fired or stand there and make a fuss, I sat in the broken seat and just asked that it be fixed in the future. But it doesn't matter. I could still be a Karen from that interaction. Oh well. Nothing to be done. Not worth spending brain cells on. I think... just put the whole "Karen" thing out of your head. Focus on whether you're okay with your own behavior.

[marbel]

28 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The other day, I was at the movies and my seat was broken and I complained and I thought, welp, I'm a Karen. I didn't try to get anyone fired or stand there and make a fuss, I sat in the broken seat and just asked that it be fixed in the future.

Wait. Politely bringing a problem to the attention of an employee of a public accommodation is being a Karen? I'm a pretty shy person and don't talk to people if I can help it, but if there's a big problem - for example, toilets that are unusable and I don't mean because of a long line - I will mention it on the way out. I mean, it depends on where I am - in the Amtrak station in downtown Philly, no, not gonna bring that up, the cleaners there have bigger stuff to deal with and they'll be along soon anyway. But in a store or restaurant, sure. Of course I'm calm and polite and say "just letting you know, blah blah, thank you!" and if that makes me a Karen I guess I just need to stay home. 

[Terabith]

Honestly, this thread horrifies me more than almost any other I've ever seen.  As someone who has recently taught two teens to drive, and who gets lost ALL THE TIME and also has to turn around (because of being lost), and who often has dead time while waiting on someone and will park on residential streets in shade, it hadn't really occurred to me that this was nefarious behavior.  As a middle aged white woman, I'm super aware of my privilege, but I live in a neighborhood where I'm an ethnic minority, and the thought that my neighbors would be targets of even non emergency police calls (with all the dangers that entails) for such behavior that I do all the time is terrifying.  

I mean, I never want to tell anyone not to listen to their gut, but I also think people's guts are shaped by what media they consume and the people they surround themselves with, and I just.....I'm horrified that someone would chase down someone for existing in public.  

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, this thread horrifies me more than almost any other I've ever seen.  As someone who has recently taught two teens to drive, and who gets lost ALL THE TIME and also has to turn around (because of being lost), and who often has dead time while waiting on someone and will park on residential streets in shade, it hadn't really occurred to me that this was nefarious behavior.  As a middle aged white woman, I'm super aware of my privilege, but I live in a neighborhood where I'm an ethnic minority, and the thought that my neighbors would be targets of even non emergency police calls (with all the dangers that entails) for such behavior that I do all the time is terrifying.  

I mean, I never want to tell anyone not to listen to their gut, but I also think people's guts are shaped by what media they consume and the people they surround themselves with, and I just.....I'm horrified that someone would chase down someone for existing in public.  

I’m not sure how that changes things. My neighborhoods for the past 18 years have been roughly 50% white, 25% Hispanic/Latinx, and 25% black. I don’t want my neighbors to be harassed by me or anyone else.

These are not my neighbors. These are people from out of state who I have now seen drive around my dead end 4 times in 3 days. Not stopping for wifi (mine doesn’t reach the street), not taking phone calls (dead spot), not getting out to find a hunting access path, not meeting another car, not trying to get it on in the daylight, not stopping to read a book, and surely not getting lost at this point.

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, this thread horrifies me more than almost any other I've ever seen.  As someone who has recently taught two teens to drive, and who gets lost ALL THE TIME and also has to turn around (because of being lost), and who often has dead time while waiting on someone and will park on residential streets in shade, it hadn't really occurred to me that this was nefarious behavior.  As a middle aged white woman, I'm super aware of my privilege, but I live in a neighborhood where I'm an ethnic minority, and the thought that my neighbors would be targets of even non emergency police calls (with all the dangers that entails) for such behavior that I do all the time is terrifying.  

I mean, I never want to tell anyone not to listen to their gut, but I also think people's guts are shaped by what media they consume and the people they surround themselves with, and I just.....I'm horrified that someone would chase down someone for existing in public.  

So...  there was a violent home invasion in my area.  So if a strange person I have never met comes to my door.  Honestly, I am not answering it.  I am not necessarily calling the police.  But they haven't caught the people. So I would be watching very, very closely with my phone in my hand.  It is VERY rare for anyone I do not know other than delivery drivers ( and to be honest I know them) to come down our driveway.  I am not shooting people who come to visit.  But can you understand why I might be fearful?  I do not watch the news you speak of, but our sheriff's department has people on alert.  Again, I would never shoot said person who came to my door.  But with violent home invasions in the area...yeah, I will be cautious and might call the police depending on how they acted.   The home invaders are white FYI.  Race doesn't matter to me. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by TexasProud

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, this thread horrifies me more than almost any other I've ever seen.  As someone who has recently taught two teens to drive, and who gets lost ALL THE TIME and also has to turn around (because of being lost), and who often has dead time while waiting on someone and will park on residential streets in shade, it hadn't really occurred to me that this was nefarious behavior.  As a middle aged white woman, I'm super aware of my privilege, but I live in a neighborhood where I'm an ethnic minority, and the thought that my neighbors would be targets of even non emergency police calls (with all the dangers that entails) for such behavior that I do all the time is terrifying.  

I mean, I never want to tell anyone not to listen to their gut, but I also think people's guts are shaped by what media they consume and the people they surround themselves with, and I just.....I'm horrified that someone would chase down someone for existing in public.  

QFT. Thank you.

[Terabith]

14 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So...  there was a violent home invasion in my area.  So if a strange person I have never met comes to my door.  Honestly, I am not answering it.  I am not necessarily calling the police.  But they haven't caught the people. So I would be watching very, very closely with my phone in my hand.  It is VERY rare for anyone I do not know other than delivery drivers ( and to be honest I know them) to come down our driveway.  I am not shooting people who come to visit.  But can you understand why I might be fearful?  I do not watch the news you speak of, but our sheriff's department has people on alert.  Again, I would never shoot said person who came to my door.  But with violent home invasions in the area...yeah, I will be cautious and might call the police depending on how they acted.   The home invaders are white FYI.  Race doesn't matter to me. 

I have an anxiety disorder.  I understand fear.  But I also understand that fear is not always rational.  Now, sometimes it is.  If there are a rash of violent home invasions in your area, then yeah, I get that fear is warranted.  I'm not saying there are never times to call the police.  @Farrar has outlined situations where she lives where obviously calling the authorities is warranted.  I've done so before when an old man broke into our house in the middle of the night claiming he was being locked up (dementia patient), and when a woman was screaming that neighbors were macing her.  

But I have to keep in mind that I live in a country where every call to the authorities has a non zero chance of ending with someone dead.  So....I always ask if it's worth the risk.  

And calling because someone is driving around slowly in a residential neighborhood, or turning around in a driveway, or parking for a bit?  None of those things described would remotely ping the level of worth the risk to me.

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, marbel said:

Wait. Politely bringing a problem to the attention of an employee of a public accommodation is being a Karen? I'm a pretty shy person and don't talk to people if I can help it, but if there's a big problem - for example, toilets that are unusable and I don't mean because of a long line - I will mention it on the way out. I mean, it depends on where I am - in the Amtrak station in downtown Philly, no, not gonna bring that up, the cleaners there have bigger stuff to deal with and they'll be along soon anyway. But in a store or restaurant, sure. Of course I'm calm and polite and say "just letting you know, blah blah, thank you!" and if that makes me a Karen I guess I just need to stay home. 

I mean, it is and it isn't. I think any rational person looking at it would say no, obviously going up to an employee in a business to say hey, there's an issue with X, is not a Karen thing. But also, I have 100% seen people call that Karen behavior. Like, table in a restaurant is dirty, white lady calls service staff over to say, hey, this table is covered in something sticky, can it be cleaned? I absolutely think she's risking being called a Karen. I've seen people called Karens for less. And I think it cheapens the whole thing, too. Like, there's a huge difference between being a mildly demanding customer or line person or constituent because you're asking for things to be done a certain way... and calling the cops on kids for swimming in your neighborhood pool or for a guy bird watching because you think he's ogling someone or whatever. Yet I totally see it used for both. 

So please don't stay inside. Just... be a middle aged white lady. It's hard enough to be a middle aged woman. Just be okay with your own behavior. I mean, sure, interrogate your own biases -- we should all be doing that -- but don't make other people keep you inside. I can promise you there are no Boomer men who have curtailed their behavior because people say "Okay, Boomer."

[Sneezyone]

Half the cars in my driveway have out of state plates based on where we bought/registered the cars. We don’t change plates every time we move.

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Half the cars in my driveway have out of state plates based on where we bought/registered the cars. We don’t change plates every time we move.

Don't you have to withing a couple of months of moving?  In Texas it is law to change it within 30 days. 

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Don't you have to withing a couple of months of moving?  In Texas it is law to change it within 30 days. 

No. We don’t. DH is still active. We’re exempt from state tax, which includes vehicle property tax, because this isn’t our home of record. We don’t even have drivers licenses for this state although our kids do/will.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

So...  there was a violent home invasion in my area.  So if a strange person I have never met comes to my door.  Honestly, I am not answering it.  I am not necessarily calling the police.  But they haven't caught the people. So I would be watching very, very closely with my phone in my hand.  It is VERY rare for anyone I do not know other than delivery drivers ( and to be honest I know them) to come down our driveway.  I am not shooting people who come to visit.  But can you understand why I might be fearful?  I do not watch the news you speak of, but our sheriff's department has people on alert.  Again, I would never shoot said person who came to my door.  But with violent home invasions in the area...yeah, I will be cautious and might call the police depending on how they acted.   The home invaders are white FYI.  Race doesn't matter to me. 

But the person Carrie is talking about isn't coming down her driveway or coming to her door.  The person is driving on a public road that goes past her house.  

If someone came up her driveway four times?  That would be different, in my opinion, and would warrant a different response.  

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m not sure how that changes things. My neighborhoods for the past 18 years have been roughly 50% white, 25% Hispanic/Latinx, and 25% black. I don’t want my neighbors to be harassed by me or anyone else.

These are not my neighbors. These are people from out of state who I have now seen drive around my dead end 4 times in 3 days. Not stopping for wifi (mine doesn’t reach the street), not taking phone calls (dead spot), not getting out to find a hunting access path, not meeting another car, not trying to get it on in the daylight, not stopping to read a book, and surely not getting lost at this point.

They're someone's neighbor.  

I live in an area where out of state plates are common, because we're near a state line.  

My teenager is learning how to drive, and since our street is big with lots of traffic, we've been finding all sorts of routes on quieter streets.  In that process, I've passed some beautiful houses, and since I like to look at houses, I've gone back and driven slowly past the same beautiful houses just to see them.  I'm not saying that's what's going on, just that there are lots of reasons why someone would be driving on a public street, and that that's kind of the point of a public street.  

[katilac]

9 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

 She would park under the shade tree and eat, drink, and be on her phone. Sometimes she would be there for almost an hour.

I don't understand how the assumption here isn't someone found a nice place to take their lunch break. 

[Melissa Louise]

It's 100% normal to notice events that fall outside the usual pattern. 

It's 100% normal to assess those events - is this random (most likely) or not (sometimes)?

If it's not random, what, if anything, do I need to do about it?

It's 100% normal for people to vary in their feelings around random or non-random departures from the usual pattern of things; they'll be informed by local context, temperament, realities, and biases.

~

It's unusual - to me, in my context, with my temperament, realities, and biases - to follow someone like this in a car. 

~

In a situation where the woman is concerned about and reflecting on both the departure from the pattern AND the response, and did not act in any way to chase anyone anywhere, there's zero need for the 'Karen' description.

No woman needs to be self-flagellating in that way. If you look at your behavior and you are being racist, and/or entitled in some other way, describe your behavior. I was being racist in my assumptions, or, I was treating someone serving me in a rude, high-handed manner. 

~

Nobody needs to fall into the trap of treating a wife as if she is responsible for a husband. I am pretty sure Carrie did not wheedle her husband to go and follow this car, and she has said she disagrees with that action. 

~

This whole thread is gender at play. Woman is socialized to feel bad, and be in a state of conflict. I felt something was wrong, but on the other hand, I need to give the out-of-town drivers the benefit of the doubt and I didn't act on my feeling of something being wrong. When I explain this to my friends, I discover I need to do a whole lot more reflection, and manage not only my self-denigration (I'm a Karen), but my defensiveness (you guys don't get it), my shame (why did dh do that!), my shame (am I a Karen? are my feelings actually something to distrust?), my worry (who were those guys anyway, why were they doing what they did?) Etc.

Man, otoh, jumps in car to trail drivers, has no real ambivalence about taking action, and probably exists in blissful ignorance that he did anything that makes stranger-women sad. I doubt his buddies are urging ongoing self-reflection, and the need to interrogate one's emotions. It happened, the car is gone, it's over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, BandH said:

They're someone's neighbor.  

I live in an area where out of state plates are common, because we're near a state line.  

My teenager is learning how to drive, and since our street is big with lots of traffic, we've been finding all sorts of routes on quieter streets.  In that process, I've passed some beautiful houses, and since I like to look at houses, I've gone back and driven slowly past the same beautiful houses just to see them.  I'm not saying that's what's going on, just that there are lots of reasons why someone would be driving on a public street, and that that's kind of the point of a public street.  

 

29 minutes ago, katilac said:

I don't understand how the assumption here isn't someone found a nice place to take their lunch break. 

 

Yes, that is one thing this thread has pointed out to me are my assumptions.  I assume people are like me: go from point a to point b.  I have no scenario in my mind where I would just be driving around pointlessly or stop somewhere for lunch in my car or something like that.  I go inside a restaurant or library or something, not inside my car.  Of course I live in Texas and so for 3/4 of the year it is WAY too hot for me to stay in my car without the air conditioning going which isn't good for the environment, so won't do that.  I just cannot imagine someone in my town just stopping in front of a house for a nice lunch break.  In my culture that doesn't happen here.  Just idly driving somewhere. No.  You go somewhere and you come back.  But again, that is MY assumption and what is in MY head: there is no good reason to be doing that because I don't do it. 

S

[Drama Llama]

Just now, TexasProud said:

 

 

Yes, that is one thing this thread has pointed out to me are my assumptions.  I assume people are like me: go from point a to point b.  I have no scenario in my mind where I would just be driving around pointlessly or stop somewhere for lunch in my car or something like that.  I go inside a restaurant or library or something, not inside my car.  Of course I live in Texas and so for 3/4 of the year it is WAY too hot for me to stay in my car without the air conditioning going which isn't good for the environment, so won't do that.  I just cannot imagine someone in my town just stopping in front of a house for a nice lunch break.  In my culture that doesn't happen here.  Just idly driving somewhere. No.  You go somewhere and you come back.  But again, that is MY assumption and what is in MY head: there is no good reason to be doing that because I don't do it. 

S

I've had jobs that involve home visits.  Lots of people do.  Home infusion nurses, cleaning people, early intervention professionals, social workers.  When I had those jobs, I might finish one appointment and have a 30 minute break and a 10 minute drive before the next appointment.  So, I'd pull over, update my paperwork in the car, maybe have something to drink.  Does that really not happen in Texas?

I also this year, have one kid who needed to be at soccer at 5:00, and one kid who needed to be picked up from practice at 5:30, 5 minutes away.  If I'd driven home, I would have gotten home and had to turn right around.  That's a huge waste of gas.  So, I stop somewhere, work on my laptop, and then go pick up the kid.  

It's not "idle" or "pointless" it's just the way people's lives work.  I'm not sure why I'd drive an extra 10 minutes to a library or pay extra for unhealthy food in a restaurant when I can bring something from home.  

[TexasProud]

9 minutes ago, BandH said:

I've had jobs that involve home visits.  Lots of people do.  Home infusion nurses, cleaning people, early intervention professionals, social workers.  When I had those jobs, I might finish one appointment and have a 30 minute break and a 10 minute drive before the next appointment.  So, I'd pull over, update my paperwork in the car, maybe have something to drink.  Does that really not happen in Texas?

I also this year, have one kid who needed to be at soccer at 5:00, and one kid who needed to be picked up from practice at 5:30, 5 minutes away.  If I'd driven home, I would have gotten home and had to turn right around.  That's a huge waste of gas.  So, I stop somewhere, work on my laptop, and then go pick up the kid.  

It's not "idle" or "pointless" it's just the way people's lives work.  I'm not sure why I'd drive an extra 10 minutes to a library or pay extra for unhealthy food in a restaurant when I can bring something from home.  

Yes, when I was driving three kids around, I often had extra time.  But, no, I did not pull in a random neighborhood.  I would go to a coffee shop or do my work inside the dance studio or the library that was 5 minutes away.  I never worked in my car. Not comfortable for one thing.  

As far as jobs that involve home visits.  Again, not strangers.  Normally, their cars are marked and/or you know the elderly people and that they have helpers coming.  They are not random people.  Absolutely, my mom had a ton of those.  So if you are parked in front of that person's house then they know you. So they think nothing of it.  But again, no, in Texas most people do not work in their cars May - October.  Just way, way, way too hot. 

[marbel]

So it's a very foreign idea to me - please note I did not say wrong or bad idea - to have lunch in my car parked in a neighborhood that is not mine. I have eaten lunch in my car, waited in my car, etc., and have seen lots of people doing the same. But, not in a neighborhood - in a parking area. I walk in parks a lot and see loads of people eating their lunch, reading, apparently napping, etc., in their cars in the parking lot.

In my neighborhood, I do see people frequently pulling up to text or talk on the phone quickly, which I think is great - given the alternative is using the phone while driving. 

To be clear, I would not call the police or otherwise get upset if someone did that at my house, but I would be surprised to see it. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by marbel

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, marbel said:

So it's a very foreign idea to me - please note I did not say wrong or bad idea - to have lunch in my car parked in a neighborhood that is not mine. I have eaten lunch in my car, waited in my car, etc., and have seen lots of people doing the same. But, not in a neighborhood - in a parking area. I walk in parks a lot and see loads of people eating their lunch, reading, apparently napping, etc., in their cars in the parking lot.

In my neighborhood, I do see people frequently pulling up to text or talk on the phone quickly, which I think is great - given the alternative is using the phone while driving. 

To be clear, I would not call the police or otherwise get upset if someone did that at my house, but I would be surprised to see it. 

Yes, this.  Parking lots, but I would never drive to a random neighborhood to do so and not because I fear what would happen, but it would never occur to be to do so.  Now, I have gone to a park before!

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, marbel said:

So it's a very foreign idea to me - please note I did not say wrong or bad idea - to have lunch in my car parked in a neighborhood that is not mine. I have eaten lunch in my car, waited in my car, etc., and have seen lots of people doing the same. But, not in a neighborhood - in a parking area. I walk in parks a lot and see loads of people eating their lunch, reading, apparently napping, etc., in their cars in the parking lot.

In my neighborhood, I do see people frequently pulling up to text or talk on the phone quickly, which I think is great - given the alternative is using the phone while driving. 

To be clear, I would not call the police or otherwise get upset if someone did that at my house, but I would be surprised to see it. 

I would just guess that the nice shade tree on that street is closer than one at the park. 

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

I would just guess that the nice shade tree on that street is closer than one at the park. 

Again, this is JUST ME.  But I would feel like I was invading someone's space by parking in front of a house where I didn't know someone.  I would feel creepy.  Again, just me. 

[Lecka]

A lot of times active duty military do not need to get new plates.  
 

We also kept out-of-state plates that way.  

[Drama Llama]

8 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, this.  Parking lots, but I would never drive to a random neighborhood to do so and not because I fear what would happen, but it would never occur to be to do so.  Now, I have gone to a park before!

Usually when I was going client to client I would drive straight to the next client and then maybe a block further to protect their confidentiality.  I wasn’t going to drive around looking for a park when I had work to do.  

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, BandH said:

Usually when I was going client to client I would drive straight to the next client and then maybe a block further to protect their confidentiality.  I wasn’t going to drive around looking for a park when I had work to do.  

Thank you for sharing.  AS I said, that would never occur to me. 

[Lecka]

I do see home health aides (I assume) parked on residential streets nearby in their cars.

 

They wear scrubs, I assume they are home health aides.

 

We also have a neighbor who appears to run a crew of some kind, a lawn or construction crew or something.  He has 2-3 cars waiting in front of his house in the mornings with guys on their phones, and then they leave together in a van.  They are there early and gone by mid-afternoon.  
 

So it is normal to see this in my neighborhood.

 

I also see this and then it turns out it was people arriving early to do some kind of work, and they are there before the rest of the workers.  This is my default assumption if I see a young man sitting in a parked car….. a while later there will be a work van or a trailer or something show up.  
 

We also have people who go door-to-door with fliers or something, and I will see them sit in a car to sit in air-conditioning and take a break.

 

So — I do see a lot of “regular daytime stuff” going on involving people who are parking on the side of a residential street.

 

But I have lived places where it was uncommon.  It’s common where I live now.

 

I think part of it is we live in a neighborhood now with a lot of elderly people who have home health aides and lawn services.  

[Terabith]

So, on our way back from dinner, there was a man in probably his early 30s pulled over to the side of the road looking vaguely panicked.  Hispanic.  We stopped and asked if he needed help.  He said he didn't have a phone and asked if he could use mine.  I loaned it to him, but he wasn't able to reach his brother.  Guy seemed like an immigrant; his English was not very good.  So he asked if we could give him a ride.  We did so, and also intervened on his behalf when a jerk cop came and threatened to tow his car (pulled off to the side of the road, with emergency blinkers on, and a towel in the window).  In an area where cars are often broken down.  Cop was clearly bullying the guy, so I was glad the white middle aged couple was there to run interference.  We drove him to his brother's.  

Nefariousness is just not my default assumption when I see people.  My default assumption is that someone needs help, and I should do what I can.

[TexasProud]

9 hours ago, Terabith said:

 

Nefariousness is just not my default assumption when I see people.  My default assumption is that someone needs help, and I should do what I can.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by TexasProud

[DawnM]

That is definitely not the definition of a Karen.   You are good.   I would be concerned too.

[Arcadia]

22 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Don't you guys use L plates or anything to indicate a learner driver?

Not in the states. People would stick student driver stickers on their car bumpers instead. Something like this

[Granny_Weatherwax]

3 hours ago, katilac said:

I don't understand how the assumption here isn't someone found a nice place to take their lunch break. 

I guess I don't think sitting in front of my house is a place to take a lunch break. There are more beautiful and well landscaped houses a minute up the street. A beautiful park is a couple of minutes away. We're also not in an area where people do that sort of thing. Is it normal for people to drive to a residential street and park there to eat their lunch? I could never do that. A park - yes. A parking lot - yes. A nice country road with horses running in a paddock - definitely yes. But sitting in front of a stranger's house in a residential neighborhood for an hour? I couldn't do it.

And it was noticeably odd. My DD visited and asked who the lady in the red car was. I told her I didn't know but she parked there every afternoon. My DGD was there when the lady pulled up one day and got excited about our visitor and then was a bit confused when I told her the lady just sat in her car for a while and would leave in a bit. 

The neighbors in the immediate vicinity were also questioning the presence of her car. They came up to DH and me while we were doing yardwork and asked if we knew her. The older retired gentleman across the street was concerned about her casing the area and tracking the comings and goings of the neighbors. He actually called the police one day but she was gone by the time they arrived. I just happened to be the one to go up and talk to her and I'm glad I did. I had no idea our internet provider had an automatic inclusion to the shared wifi network. None of us in the nearby houses (who all had the same provider; small town, not a lot of options) knew about it and were automatically included. It's why the lady's signal was so strong.

I guess what makes me wonder about it is that it wasn't a one off. This is something that was becoming commonplace. Once I knew she was working in the area and had a reason to be in the neighborhood I was fine with it. I did discontinue the shared wifi network because that is not something I wanted to participate in but it's not like I asked her to leave or threatened her in any way. I simply asked if she needed assistance. She's the one who admitted she drove around the neighborhood looking for the strongest wifi signal so she didn't have to use her data.

Now I'm worried I did something wrong (social anxiety and not understanding social norms is an issue for me)

 

 

[annandatje]

When I lived inside our high crime rate city, a homeowner called cops on me one night.  I was parked in a church parking lot at outer edge of lot underneath a lamp pole, so I could read book while waiting for my kid to finish a meeting that usually ran one to two hours.  I had been there about an hour when cop knocked on window.  Homeowner across street stated I was behaving suspiciously.  I guess he wasn’t a reader.   

I also have a navigational disability so get lost often even with gps.  After reading through this thread, I will work on not causing others unnecessary anxiety.

[Sneezyone]

There’s a YouTuber/TikToker (I dunno, my kid showed it to me), black woman, who chronicled her story of visiting her fiancé in her mobile home (read converted van) and parking on a nearby dead end T to vlog. It’s scary (for her), anxiety producing for me, and a vivid example of how weaponized suspicion affects real people.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I think what confuses me is the idea of "what if I could have prevented something from happening?" I watch too many reality crime shows where the police say something akin to "If someone would have reported/said something/noticed something" the tragedy may have been averted or we could have stopped the abduction/caught the robber/murderer. Or, in the case of an older adult or sick person, if someone would have walked up to the car and asked if anything was wrong the person could have received help.

When is the right time to say something? Call someone? What circumstances necessitate action? I don't want to be the person who doesn't take action but I also don't want to be a Karen.

[Carol in Cal.]

I don’t think that parking and sitting in your car or slowly driving by is suspicious.

Cruising slowly up a mostly abandoned street, looking at houses, pulling over briefly, making notes, and continuing to do this *might* be.  Doing that over and over without ever resolving it as a delivery or something like that is suspicious.

I’m not one to quickly sound an alarm, but I make no apologies for wanting to be safe in my own home and neighborhood.  Nor should anybody else.

 

 

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

I think what confuses me is the idea of "what if I could have prevented something from happening?" I watch too many reality crime shows where the police say something akin to "If someone would have reported/said something/noticed something" the tragedy may have been averted or we could have stopped the abduction/caught the robber/murderer. Or, in the case of an older adult or sick person, if someone would have walked up to the car and asked if anything was wrong the person could have received help.

When is the right time to say something? Call someone? What circumstances necessitate action? I don't want to be the person who doesn't take action but I also don't want to be a Karen.

Maybe considering the people you see everyday as FULL humans with a variety of non-dangerous motives, needs, concerns who just want to get home to their families, just like you, will help? 

I’m not suggesting ignoring threats as several folks have already discussed. Irrational, unjustified suspicion of everyone you don’t know (and their reason for being/existing in your line of sight) is a problem.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Granny_Weatherwax]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Maybe considering the people you see everyday as FULL humans with a variety of non-dangerous motives, needs, concerns who just want to get home to their families, just like you, will help? 

I’m not suggesting ignoring threats as several folks have already discussed. Irrational, unjustified suspicion of everyone you don’t know (and their reason for being/existing in your line of sight) is a problem.

Is the assumption that I don't see people as fully human? It's a real question and not meant as snark.  Because if my behavior implies that...well, I have bigger issues that need to be addressed.

[Sneezyone]

24 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

Is the assumption that I don't see people as fully human? It's a real question and not meant as snark.  Because if my behavior implies that...well, I have bigger issues that need to be addressed.

*If* it’s difficult or impossible to contemplate the variety of reasons that people drive down unfamiliar streets, park their cars nearby, linger in presumably safe neighborhoods, then yeah, I question whether you see people as full humans with needs and motives similar to your own. Violent crime, despite media narratives, is rare in suburbia. Property<lives.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

I guess I don't think sitting in front of my house is a place to take a lunch break. There are more beautiful and well landscaped houses a minute up the street. A beautiful park is a couple of minutes away. We're also not in an area where people do that sort of thing. Is it normal for people to drive to a residential street and park there to eat their lunch? I could never do that. A park - yes. A parking lot - yes. A nice country road with horses running in a paddock - definitely yes. But sitting in front of a stranger's house in a residential neighborhood for an hour? I couldn't do it.

And it was noticeably odd. My DD visited and asked who the lady in the red car was. I told her I didn't know but she parked there every afternoon. My DGD was there when the lady pulled up one day and got excited about our visitor and then was a bit confused when I told her the lady just sat in her car for a while and would leave in a bit. 

The neighbors in the immediate vicinity were also questioning the presence of her car. They came up to DH and me while we were doing yardwork and asked if we knew her. The older retired gentleman across the street was concerned about her casing the area and tracking the comings and goings of the neighbors. He actually called the police one day but she was gone by the time they arrived. I just happened to be the one to go up and talk to her and I'm glad I did. I had no idea our internet provider had an automatic inclusion to the shared wifi network. None of us in the nearby houses (who all had the same provider; small town, not a lot of options) knew about it and were automatically included. It's why the lady's signal was so strong.

I guess what makes me wonder about it is that it wasn't a one off. This is something that was becoming commonplace. Once I knew she was working in the area and had a reason to be in the neighborhood I was fine with it. I did discontinue the shared wifi network because that is not something I wanted to participate in but it's not like I asked her to leave or threatened her in any way. I simply asked if she needed assistance. She's the one who admitted she drove around the neighborhood looking for the strongest wifi signal so she didn't have to use her data.

Now I'm worried I did something wrong (social anxiety and not understanding social norms is an issue for me)

 

 

I think the big problem here is the idea that if someone wouldn't do what you would do, that makes them suspicious or less safe.  

It wouldn't occur to me to pick a prettier house to sit in front of.  Which is ironic as I'm someone who likes to look at pretty houses, but if I'm taking a break to eat my lunch and log the data from my work shift, and maybe make a call to the dentist to make an appointment, I'm not looking at the house.  Similarly, it wouldn't occur to me to drive further to get to a park.  Gas is expensive, and my time is precious.  

But the fact that you jump to the idea that I am a threat because I feel differently about that makes me uncomfortable.  I mean, I don't think that whether I like to look at pretty houses while calling for a dentist appointment, or that I'm cheaper than you are about gas, makes me more likely to be someone dangerous.  It doesn't compute.  And the fact that there's a whole neighborhood that would judge me as dangerous because I  have (well had) a different job than you, or less money than you, or just chose a different tree to eat under, is really sad.

Now, when I had that job I was a younger white woman, so if it had happened that the police had come, it would have been annoying because I might not have been able to reach the dentist or finish my sandwich.  Now, though, it would be pretty traumatic for me, but still safe.  But for some Americans it would be really dangerous.  

I don't think you did anything wrong, although the "not participating in" your wifi provider providing a free service to other people that you might also benefit from is weird to me.  But calling the police?  Or following someone in a car?  I think both of those things are wrong.  

[BakersDozen]

17 hours ago, Janeway said:

Also, when you comment about not wanting to be a Karen, it tells me that women have been shamed enough by society for the last few years that you are afraid to speak up. As women, we’ve been told to shut up and sit down, because we’re terrible people for daring to speak up. I’ve noticed just in the last week, in public, men ranting about stuff, where if women had done the same thing people would’ve been videotaping them and putting them on the Internet and calling them Karen. Just because your woman does not make your concerns invalid. 

And then those of us with the unfortunate name can't speak up at all or we are immediately shut down. Can't share our actual name, have to use something creative on FB...it's ridiculous. 😞 I had a guy insult me horribly for something I posted (because he didn't agree, not because my post was offensive). I changed my FB name and the very next day he responded to a post of mine with respect and a totally different "vibe." He also thought I was a guy. Ridiculous. I'm over the "Karen" thing.

Sorry...off topic a bit there...

[Shoeless]

 Good grief, y'all. Not everyone is "casing" your home. Not everyone is trying to do something nefarious.  Sometimes people are lost, trying to find an address (why do so many houses not have their numbers visible from the road?!), killing time between appointments, or just plain disorganized.   

I once got accused of following a woman around town and "acting suspicious". I'd never seen this woman before in my life. I pulled into a Walgreen's parking lot and pulled out my phone to load coupons into the walgreen's app. I sat there for probably 5 minutes, fiddling around with my stuff, and saw another car pull in next to me out of my peripheral vision. A woman gets out of the car, comes over, and bangs on my window. "What are you doing here?!"

Getting ready to go shopping? Do you work here? 

I thought maybe she was a manager and going to gripe that I was loitering. Nope, she starts yelling that she's going to call the cops because I've been following her around town all day "acting suspicious" and demands to know "who I work for".  I told her to go ahead and call the cops and acted like a ditzy blonde because for all I know, this woman had a gun and was about to shoot me (Because Texas).  She got back in her car and drove off.  

I sometimes get to my son's enrichment class 10 minutes early and park around the corner and read while I wait for him. It's a residential area and a public street.  The woman that lives across the street gives me a dirty look every week when she sees me park.  Even though she sees me go into the house 3 doors down and come out with my teen every.single.week. Even though she sees lots of other teens come and go from that same house every.single.week.  But maybe in her head, it's all an elaborate ruse to case the neighborhood for Amazon packages or expensive lawn ornaments or sell drugs or maybe it's human trafficking or whatever paranoic scam she's read about on social media. 🙄

I spent a lot of time just sitting in my car in a random place during lockdown because I needed to get out of the house and just be somewhere quiet. 

[easypeasy]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:09 PM, Carrie12345 said:

I am all kumbaya-benefit-of-the-doubt-leftist-love-humanity at a macro level, but I hate actual people.

I feel so seen rn. If I were ever asked to write a sentence describing myself - this would be it. 😶‍🌫️

 

[Laura Corin]

8 hours ago, TexasProud said:

 

 

Yes, that is one thing this thread has pointed out to me are my assumptions.  I assume people are like me: go from point a to point b.  I have no scenario in my mind where I would just be driving around pointlessly or stop somewhere for lunch in my car or something like that.  I go inside a restaurant or library or something, not inside my car.  Of course I live in Texas and so for 3/4 of the year it is WAY too hot for me to stay in my car without the air conditioning going which isn't good for the environment, so won't do that.  I just cannot imagine someone in my town just stopping in front of a house for a nice lunch break.  In my culture that doesn't happen here.  Just idly driving somewhere. No.  You go somewhere and you come back.  But again, that is MY assumption and what is in MY head: there is no good reason to be doing that because I don't do it. 

S

I remember when we were staying with my in-laws in Dallas many years ago and Husband and I went for a walk around nearby streets. We were ambling and chatting to each other, not obviously exercising and we didn't have a dog. Husband had to explain to me why we were getting stares. We were behaving normally in UK terms but not in the minds of the householders.

In the OP's position I would not have taken action based on seeing the car circling.  Driving practice was my first thought, particularly if L-plates are not required. It's a public road, not my own property. But then, even private property in Scotland in many cases is open for public use, so my instincts are quite different. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

I remember when we were staying with my in-laws in Dallas many years ago and Husband and I went for a walk around nearby streets. We were ambling and chatting to each other, not obviously exercising and we didn't have a dog. Husband had to explain to me why we were getting stares. We were behaving normally in UK terms but not in the minds of the householders.

In the OP's position I would not have taken action based on seeing the car circling.  Driving practice was my first thought, particularly if L-plates are not required. It's a public road, not my own property. But then, even private property in Scotland in many cases is open for public use, so my instincts are quite different. 

The U.S. is special and not always in a good way.

[Carrie12345]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

There’s a YouTuber/TikToker (I dunno, my kid showed it to me), black woman, who chronicled her story of visiting her fiancé in her mobile home (read converted van) and parking on a nearby dead end T to vlog. It’s scary (for her), anxiety producing for me, and a vivid example of how weaponized suspicion affects real people.

I think this is the root of my uncertainty and discomfort. And I’m asking completely openly and honestly - Is something weaponized suspicion when it’s something that I would avoid doing myself out of concern for making someone  uncomfortable? Is something weaponized suspicion when race or ethnicity is unknown or white? And is it weaponized suspicion when the only action taken (and let’s say by me, or in a hypothetical) is talking it out with other people?

 I’m taking this conversation seriously because it IS important to me. I’m also coming from a previous neighborhood (Not suburb)with private security patrolling and manning gates, to an open neighborhood (also not suburb) without those things, so I’m navigating a new normal.

And yes, I think I am, overall, more suspicious or cynical than some people. I think it’s mostly innate, but it’s likely exacerbated by ties to emergency services and high profile cases every couple of years or so. This is a lot of personal detail, but I used to walk my dogs past the house of a guy who killed multiple people, and now I live right near where a guy tried to kill his wife in front of his kids. Plus my kid got bit by an adult human at work last night. So, no, I don’t trust people.

Those feelings are in conflict with my values when it comes to being a good citizen/person who wants to make the world a better place. While I’ve appreciated this conversation, I’m really struggling with how I’m going to reconcile these two things.

[TexasProud]

39 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

And yes, I think I am, overall, more suspicious or cynical than some people. I think it’s mostly innate, but it’s likely exacerbated by ties to emergency services and high profile cases every couple of years or so. This is a lot of personal detail, but I used to walk my dogs past the house of a guy who killed multiple people, and now I live right near where a guy tried to kill his wife in front of his kids. Plus my kid got bit by an adult human at work last night. So, no, I don’t trust people.

Those feelings are in conflict with my values when it comes to being a good citizen/person who wants to make the world a better place. While I’ve appreciated this conversation, I’m really struggling with how I’m going to reconcile these two things.

THIS.  How do you believe the best when you have seen the worst?

[Pawz4me]

12 hours ago, katilac said:

I don't understand how the assumption here isn't someone found a nice place to take their lunch break. 

FWIW, there's a cul-de-sac at the end of our street, probably 75-100 yards from our house. It's really more of a turnaround, there are no houses built on it because the land around it is unsuitable for septic systems. There are woods around most of it, so lots of shade. People park there all the time to take a break or do paper work or whatever. The garbage people, FedEx, UPS, Amazon, the mail carrier--they all park there occasionally. Ditto plumbers, electricians, HVAC repair people with marked vehicles. So do regular (unmarked) vehicles. Our default assumption is that they're taking a break, doing paperwork, making a phone call or texting, etc. It's definitely not a big deal. But this is a very safe, quiet area. The most excitement we've had in the years we've lived here was someone going around trying to find unlocked cars in the middle of the night. And that was only one time. So the preponderance of the evidence leads us to conclude that it's highly unlikely anyone parking in our cul-de-sac is up to anything nefarious. I can understand that others in different types of neighborhoods, or who have had different experiences, might be more suspicious.

5 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

And then those of us with the unfortunate name can't speak up at all or we are immediately shut down. Can't share our actual name, have to use something creative on FB...it's ridiculous. 😞 I had a guy insult me horribly for something I posted (because he didn't agree, not because my post was offensive). I changed my FB name and the very next day he responded to a post of mine with respect and a totally different "vibe." He also thought I was a guy. Ridiculous. I'm over the "Karen" thing.

Sorry...off topic a bit there...

I'm sorry. I hate the Karen crap for various reasons, chief among them that it's so awful and unfair for all the wonderful people who have that name.

[Lecka]

I think there is a lot of choice involved, a lot of the time for a lot of people.

I think there are a lot of times it’s possible to think “oh no it could be this” and combat it by thinking “but here’s how likely that is….”

I think it’s also possible to be realistic about what is a likely threat and what is unlikely.

Texas Proud specifically — I didn’t respond when it came up on a recent thread.

But there is a difference between vigilance and hyper-vigilance.

Vigilance is appropriate.  

Hyper-vigilance is not.  

It seems like you’re aware that you’re hyper-vigilant.  Or else you’re vigilant and someone’s trying to make you feel bad about it, or you feel like you shouldn’t be vigilant.  I don’t know.

I think something that does help is asking other people for their opinion “does this seem dangerous to you” and “when does it seem dangerous” and things like that.

That is a way someone can find out if they are much more vigilant than other people with a certain scenario.  And then that doesn’t make it right or wrong, but if someone is feeling like they are too worried, it’s a good way to find out how they are comparing to other people.  
 

But yes hyper-vigilance is a problem if it’s to that point.  Why?  People are so worried.  People avoid some activities.  People can’t participate in some activities.  It’s a real, serious thing.  It can get to the point it’s causing harm in their lives and relationships.  
 

So if it’s to that point to you — it is a problem.

 

If it’s not — then it’s not.  
 

 

Edit:  but I don’t think there’s a rule for what to think is appropriate vigilance, people are allowed to have their own opinions. 
 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Lecka

[math teacher]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:15 PM, Farrar said:

This whole thread just makes me sad the more I think about it. It reminds me of all the people who have been killed for turning around in someone's driveway or going to the wrong address. Or of the case that was just settled where the men followed the teenage boys for turning around in their driveway and forced them out of the car at gunpoint. This mood where we're convinced that people driving on a quiet street are such a threat that we have to get in our cars and follow them around? Good grief. It's sad that this is what we've come to as a society on a widespread level. It's vigilantism and paranoia.

Dh and I used to love just driving around looking/exploring. I would sometimes do it just on my own as a way to enjoy spending an hour. I don't feel safe doing that anymore, and that makes me sad.

[Doodlebug]

This conversation is an impossible one because context matters.  As the OP points out and others, our places of residence, our cities, our spouses.  It all builds a framework for how we perceive the world around us.

I love that the OP is questioning her motives, trying to draw her concerns into a realistic framework.

I'd love to see the same of those who are coming into an awareness that their behaviors may cause concern to their neighbors.  It's a two way street of understanding.  Just because something is legal doesn't justify it as non creepy.  Just something to be mindful of as anxiety has been a massive issue post covid.  Just my $.02