Update on p. 5 - Twins are losing weight - help please

[Ann.without.an.e]

We have an appt in the lactation consultant’s office tomorrow. They don’t nurse well after car rides though. They tend to settle into a really deep sleep and take forever to want to wake up. We’ll see how it goes. 

[sweet2ndchance]

25 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I have a very accurate kitchen scale. Would it work??

My home midwife had a hanging scale that she just tied up a receiving blanket as the basket to put the baby in. It was digital and able to be zeroed out for the weight of the blanket. It was something like this. The baby felt comfortable and supported so they didn't wiggle so much and throw off the weight.

If you can zero out the kitchen scale for the weight of a blanket or whatever you use to hold them still and the weight limit of the scale goes high enough (some kitchen scales don't go over a couple of pounds) then I'm sure it would work fine for home use.

[Bnogo24]

The first few weeks of nursing twins was really tough. Mine were 5 pounders & gained very slowly - after some loses early on.  My pedi was a bit concerned but supportive of breast feeding.  Hopefully lactation recommends trying just nursing for a few days- no bottles & lets them settle in. Can you change them & give to mom to nurse, take them back for burps & settle back to sleep?  I couldn’t tandem feed for a few weeks- but once we all figured it out - with the giant twin pillow - it was good & more efficient. Tell DD great job & hang in there!!

[Pippen]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

she’s terribly allergic to both beef and cow’s milk or I’d totally look into that 

Quaker Instant oatmeal is high in iron. I discovered that when I was anemic after having one of my kiddos.

[Amy in NH]

Not twins, but my younger dd was a large baby who lost small amounts for the first few weeks, and then didn't really gain much for about 3 months.  But she was eating well, making plenty of diapers, and developing normally.  I visited a lactation consultant who was unconcerned, and then fired the ped who was insisting on formula and found a new ped who would support my breastfeeding.  Dd is a healthy, happy 17yo now, all dance-muscle and on the low end of the weight charts.  Interestingly, she went to SLP for a year in elementary, and is also diagnosed hypermobile - wonder if it's related...

[Matryoshka]

3 hours ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

[Intentionally didn't read any prior comments.]

As a mama who DID nurse twins, I will say that giving 1 of them 1 bottle each day was actually the thing that made it possible for me to actually nurse them. They had 1st solid food at 6mo. It was HARD. I know that baby-feeding is so controversial, but . . . please hear from another twin mama, that SHE matters, too, and there are MANY right options for this. It's not exclusively A or B. She will find a way. ❤️ Hang in there. Twins are one of the sweetest gigs going, and . . . nutrition is important, but NOT the most important of all, kwim?

After I got nursing established, I still gave them each one bottle (of pumped milk) at bedtime so I could get them down at the same time (memories are foggy, but I think dh gave it to one, and me the other?).  I'd pump once per day after they were in bed, watching TV with the hands-free pumping apparatus.  

I had always thought I'd give bottles at night 'so I could get more sleep' - but when I realized that bottles required at least one of us to get up, get bottles, warm them, and then sit up to feed them, and I could nurse lying down in bed and doze off, that went out the window.  I slept between the two babies and rotated all night - rotisserie mom!  And got *way* more sleep that way.  Like, way more.  I know not everyone can side nurse in bed - it has partly to do with anatomy.  But worth a try...  figuring out what works best for her and her babies is the thing.  Better to go in with all options open and see what that is, and it's likely a bit different for everyone.

[BusyMom5]

Hugs to your DD.  Nursing twins is hard!  If they are having the right amount of wet and dirty diapers,  and don't want the bottle after feeding,  I would keep doing what she is doing for another few days.  She needs to be eating and drinking plenty of fluids and taking vitamins as well as eating a well balanced diet.  Looking back, I'm not sure how I did it, and I would probably not be as picky about exclusively breastfeeding if I were to do it again. I would introduce a bottle during the night so I could get more sleep (and give that feeding to someone else).  What I did do- kicked DH out of the bed and like the previous poster said, was like a rotisserie mom!  Lol!  Perfect explanation!  I was also just plain exhausted for several months.  The lack of sleep didn't help.  Both mine were slightly tongue tied,  but I never knew until they were about 5!  I just know that thd first 2 months I had to hold ones head all the the feeding or he would fall off.  If she can try to tandem nurse, it might be less time consuming, but its hard to figure out.  With tiny babies with tiny months, it can take a while.  I'm so glad you are there with her!  If she ever needs to talk to someone,  I'd be happy to listen.  My twins are 15, but I remember how hard those first few months are.  

[vonfirmath]

7 hours ago, rebcoola said:

Any chance she can do a weighed feed to know they are getting enough? Its so hard to know when to stop supplementing.

We did a weighed feed with my son -- which was when we discovered he was not getting enough calories breastfeeding to make up for the energy used extracting it 😞  

[Carol in Cal.]

While the pumping will certainly increase her supply, a possibly less painful way to do that is to drink Mother’s Milk tea every couple of hours during the day for a week or two.  Usually when I did that after about a two day lag I would have a noticeable and copious increase.  And an increased supply like that makes it easier for the baby to nurse as well.   

[Ellie]

6 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Thanks for all of the thoughts y’all ❤️

There is an issue we’re facing that I should have mentioned …

they are stubborn and if they don’t want to eat, they won’t eat. Since they’ve been nursing good we’ve tried to offer a smaller portion from the bottle as was suggested but they both press their lips closed with disinterest. I tried again today after the appointment with some pumped milk and nope, not happening. This has to mean they’re getting plenty right ?

I ordered a scale last week but it seems to be highly inaccurate. I laid peach on there four times and got four totally different weights. So I started a rerun label with Amazon. Is there a scale y’all recommend?

The lactation consultant called and left a message about scheduling a time for dd to nurse there so they could weigh before and after. 

Refusing to take a bottle is not being stubborn. Not eating when they're not actually hungry is not being stubborn. Not taking a bottle also doesn't mean that they are getting plenty of milk from Mom. A bottle nipple is nothing like a mom nipple. One of the reasons that new moms might have trouble nursing is that if she supplements at all the babies get confused between the two different nipples and won't eat. Not all babies have nipple confusion, but many do, which is why it's best not to supplement.

The stress of what's going on, including all the weighing of the babies, and "fighting" with the doctor (and you, and I say this with all gentleness) can absolutely affect your daughter's milk supply. Her total job at this point should be nursing those babies, as often and for as long as they will nurse, because the cure for a good milk supply is...nursing. Even pumping will not have the same good result as more nursing.

Have you contacted La Leche League? That would be my very first recommendation. I know it's scary for the babies to be losing weight, but La Leche League is the expert on nursing babies, not the doctor. I'm a little wary of a "lactation consultant," as well, unless she is also a trained La Leche League leader.

[KSera]

49 minutes ago, Ellie said:

I'm a little wary of a "lactation consultant," as well, unless she is also a trained La Leche League leader.

The La Leche League leader I talked to was ready for me to give up WAY before I was anywhere near even considering it. Fortunately I’m stubborn and kept at it until he was finally strong enough and coordinated enough to be fully breastfed without needing a little supplemental breast milk each day. We got there though. 
 

An IBCLC is going to have received extensive training and experience. (But even those didn’t think it was going to be doable in our case—again, stubborn 😂). Our issues were more complicated than what most LLL leaders or LCs typically encounter though, so I don’t fault them for throwing up their hands. 

[Lawyer&Mom]

A blood test will tell if she qualifies for an Iron IV.  I had one after my first section that involved a lot of blood loss and I think it helped.  Something to consider.  Otherwise definitely orange juice with the iron pill. 

[Eos]

8 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

We have an appt in the lactation consultant’s office tomorrow. They don’t nurse well after car rides though. They tend to settle into a really deep sleep and take forever to want to wake up. We’ll see how it goes. 

Great!  

[Ann.without.an.e]

7 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

 

I could nurse lying down in bed and doze off, that went out the window.  I slept between the two babies and rotated all night - rotisserie mom!  And got *way* more sleep that way.  Like, way more.  I know not everyone can side nurse in bed - it has partly to do with anatomy.  But worth a try...  figuring out what works best for her and her babies is the thing.  Better to go in with all options open and see what that is, and it's likely a bit different for everyone.

 

The hospital drilled it so hard - no cosleeping, no cosleeping. Basically, “they’ll die if you cosleep”. DD is terrified of that. I don’t even know that she is getting good sleep because she says she’ll wake up panicked that she has a baby in her arms in bed, even though they won’t allow themselves to hold them in bed laying down for that reason. They made it into such a huge fear that it’s literally disrupting her sleep. She won’t even sit up in bed and nurse them. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

What do y’all think about cosleeping in general? It is super controversial right? 
I stuck to the rule hard with #1 and #2 but then I feel like #3 co slept some for my own sanity but I can’t remember if I did it so little 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Eos]

9 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

The hospital drilled it so hard - no cosleeping, no cosleeping. Basically, “they’ll die if you cosleep”. DD is terrified of that. I don’t even know that she is getting good sleep because she says she’ll wake up panicked that she has a baby in her arms in bed, even though they won’t allow themselves to hold them in bed laying down for that reason. They made it into such a huge fear that it’s literally disrupting her sleep. She won’t even sit up in bed and nurse them. 

Ugh, that makes it so hard.  

6 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

What do y’all think about cosleeping in general? 
It is so demonized now and I remember that fear with dd but by baby #3 and with #2 and #3 being so close in age, that went out the window. #3 was in my bed quite a bit. 

Totally fine.  Sleep deprivation isn't serving her.  We were Stone Age for exponentially longer than we've been modern.  Babies expect it.  But to help her worry less, she could buy or build little nests in the bed for them with rolled blankets so she cannot roll over on them. Something like this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/66146688259617580/ then scooch down the edge to nurse lying down.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Eos

[sweet2ndchance]

All 6 of mine co-slept at least some of the time and everyone lived to adulthood. Second ds is the only one that slept better in the crib than co-sleeping. Co-sleeping has it's risks just like anything else but I think you have to do what is right for you and your babies. Some people sleep too hard to be aware of the baby in the bed with them. Some people sleep too lightly to get any sleep at all with a baby in the bed. A co-sleeper or a nest is definitely a good investment to try co-sleeping.

I agree with Eos, we've co-slept with babies much longer than we've decided it's a bad thing.

[Ann.without.an.e]

14 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

All 6 of mine co-slept at least some of the time and everyone lived to adulthood. Second ds is the only one that slept better in the crib than co-sleeping. Co-sleeping has it's risks just like anything else but I think you have to do what is right for you and your babies. Some people sleep too hard to be aware of the baby in the bed with them. Some people sleep too lightly to get any sleep at all with a baby in the bed. A co-sleeper or a nest is definitely a good investment to try co-sleeping.

I agree with Eos, we've co-slept with babies much longer than we've decided it's a bad thing.

They drilled it so hard and even had to sign papers. It’s just wild to me that they made such an issue of it that dd isn’t sleeping at night even though she’s not cosleeping 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[73349]

There are ways to make co-sleeping safer (or make it basically near-sleeping). I wish we'd taken our bed apart and put it on the floor and put DS on his crib mattress on the floor next to me, or even in a cardboard box.
Babies need to be kept away from pillows and blankets. Babies can be in sleep sacks and parents in very warm PJs to reduce risk. If neither parent is using any medication that makes them drowsy, neither has sleep apnea, etc., and it's a smoke-free home, this also reduces risk. Babies should be placed on their backs wherever they sleep. (After ~2 months, mine always rolled over onto his tummy as soon as his little butt hit the mattress, but I decided that was not my problem.)

Edited March 9, 2023 by 73349

[Ann.without.an.e]

Cosleeping isn’t an option. She gets upset if I just hint at it lol 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Ok so milk supply question….

I got here to a very sleep deprived and out of sorts dd. I guess they cluster fed all night. I think she needs good sleep. I currently have both babies on my chest and under a fleece blanket. They’re sacked. How long can I let her sleep without it messing up her supply? Especially if they nursed all night? They’ll take a bottle and I have her pumped milk so they’ll be good. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

The hospital drilled it so hard - no cosleeping, no cosleeping. Basically, “they’ll die if you cosleep”. DD is terrified of that. I don’t even know that she is getting good sleep because she says she’ll wake up panicked that she has a baby in her arms in bed, even though they won’t allow themselves to hold them in bed laying down for that reason. They made it into such a huge fear that it’s literally disrupting her sleep. She won’t even sit up in bed and nurse them. 

Oh your poor dd. I would have been dangerous from lack of sleep if we hadn’t been able to safely cosleep. My babies wouldn’t sleep without touching me and nursed frequently at night. 

3 hours ago, Eos said:

Ugh, that makes it so hard.  

Totally fine.  Sleep deprivation isn't serving her.  We were Stone Age for exponentially longer than we've been modern.  Babies expect it.  But to help her worry less, she could buy or build little nests in the bed for them with rolled blankets so she cannot roll over on them. Something like this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/66146688259617580/ then scooch down the edge to nurse lying down.

I know it’s moot right now, but I would not recommend any of the sleep nest type products out there. They pose a suffocation hazard. Do the babies sleep in her room at least? The risk of SIDS is higher for babies sleeping in a separate room.

I would let her sleep three hours, bring her babies to feed, then take them back and let her do another 3 hours. Two three hour stretches would have been unthinkably amazing when my babies were that young. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Oh your poor dd. I would have been dangerous from lack of sleep if we hadn’t been able to safely cosleep. My babies wouldn’t sleep without touching me and nursed frequently at night. 

I know it’s moot right now, but I would not recommend any of the sleep nest type products out there. They pose a suffocation hazard. Do the babies sleep in her room at least? The risk of SIDS is higher for babies sleeping in a separate room.

I would let her sleep three hours, bring her babies to feed, then take them back and let her do another 3 hours. Two three hour stretches would have been unthinkably amazing when my babies were that young. 

They are in the same room. I was thinking three hours too. Thanks 

[KSera]

[not quoting picture]
Ack! They’re so cute and tiny! Now I have to ask though if you’re fully awake and aware while having them sleep on you like that. If you get at all sleepy yourself, I would not stay like that—a lot riskier than a safe cosleeping environment. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

[not quoting picture]
Ack! They’re so cute and tiny! Now I have to ask though if you’re fully awake and aware while having them sleep on you like that. If you get at all sleepy yourself, I would not stay like that—a lot riskier than a safe cosleeping environment. 

I’m fully awake and not at all tired and I’m sitting up 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

[not quoting picture]
Ack! They’re so cute and tiny! Now I have to ask though if you’re fully awake and aware while having them sleep on you like that. If you get at all sleepy yourself, I would not stay like that—a lot riskier than a safe cosleeping environment. 

Also I felt like their temps were a little low? So I’m trying to be a warmer for them lol. 
But yes I’m fully awake and watching the office 🤣

[Paige]

Does her hospital have a mom/baby group? Usually the leader will have a hospital scale. I'm sure your daughter doesn't want to bring the babies to a play group yet, but she may be able to call the leader and meet with her a few minutes before or after the group. The leaders I've known have been LCs and they will weigh babies at the moms group. A test weigh is the best way to find out if the babies are getting enough. 

 The mom/baby leader should also be able to give her advice on nursing, check her latches, etc. For free. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Paige

[BusyMom5]

I thought of a fee other things to try.  Maybe pump off a bit before they eat so that they get more calorie-ruch hind milk.  When night-nursing, do not turn on lights.  I use a small flashlight instead- this way they and she won't wake up as much.  I'm not sure what they are sleeping in, but I highly recommend an arms-reach co-sleeper- full size- attached to the bed.  Nurse 1, put her back into the co-sleeper, then nurse 2.  The less I moved, the better I fell back asleep.  It also helps babies yo not get days and nights mixed up.  

As for the co-sleeping- there are safe ways to do it and I've co-slept with all of mine.  No blankets or extra pillows, no cracks around the bed.  With my twins I would put them opposite the way I laid, a bit away from me but still within arms reach.  With them being this little and swaddled,  they will not be rolling around.  I am convinced this is how babies are supposed to sleep, and that mom and baby breathing together is important.  If mom wakes in a panic, all she has to do is lay her hand over on baby and feel her breathing, then fall back asleep.  I do not recommend co-sleeping if she is a heavy sleeper or taking any type of medication- otherwise I think our mom-senses recognize our baby is there, even in sleep.  I asked my pediatrician a long time ago as a worried mom and she said the best sleeping arrangement is the one that allows everyone the most sleep.  

All this worry us hard on supply, too.  She needs to relax and trust her body.  She also just needs rest  😴 

[Scarlett]

It makes me so so sad that the doctors have bullied her into not even be able to trust her own mothering instincts.  I understand Though @Ann.without.an.e that that damage is done and suggesting she go against doctors commands will only upset her more. 
 

Thank goodness she has you there.  
 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It makes me so so sad that the doctors have bullied her into not even be able to trust her own mothering instincts.  I understand Though @Ann.without.an.e that that damage is done and suggesting she go against doctors commands will only upset her more. 
 

Thank goodness she has you there.  
 

 

It’s a touchy thing because she feels they are nursing good and are ok and she also thinks the consultation will not go well. They get so sleepy in the car, they’re supposed to just go in at 1:00 today and nurse well?  What if they’re not ready and just so tired from the car ?

But she has to do it and she has to do the weigh in tomorrow. I mean one part of her wants to make sure they’re gaining weight and the other part would like to give it the weekend and see if they catch up. But you can’t. In our area you will have DSS at your doorstep if you do that. That would stress her more than she can handle right now. 

[Brittany1116]

Sounds like mom needs iron.

Regarding pumping after feeds, she should pump til a minute past empty. The hindmilk is where the fat content is, and the babies need that even if they stop nursing before that point. It would probably be a good idea to pump and collect that and offer the hindmilk from the prior pump to the babies after each feed. She can also start a freezer stash if she gets overwhelmed with pumped milk. Their appetite will increase soon. 

I had babies diagnosed FTT and EPed with the second. Kellymom website is a good resource. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Ann.without.an.e said:

It’s a touchy thing because she feels they are nursing good and are ok and she also thinks the consultation will not go well. They get so sleepy in the car, they’re supposed to just go in at 1:00 today and nurse well?  What if they’re not ready and just so tired from the car ?

But she has to do it and she has to do the weigh in tomorrow. I mean one part of her wants to make sure they’re gaining weight and the other part would like to give it the weekend and see if they catch up. But you can’t. In our area you will have DSS at your doorstep if you do that. That would stress her more than she can handle right now. 

Holy crap.  You have got to be kidding.

[livetoread]

I was a big advocate of co-sleeping when my kids were little. After reading some of the latest research, I wouldn't do it again, though I would have them by me on their own mattress. I was a light, careful, co-sleeper, and I still remember the time I woke up to dd with the sheet over her face and her struggling to breathe. She had inched down and I had pulled the sheet over me in my sleep. Usually it's fine, but there is a risk that can be decreased but not erased.

[Ann.without.an.e]

5 minutes ago, Brittany1116 said:

Sounds like mom needs iron.

Regarding pumping after feeds, she should pump til a minute past empty. The hindmilk is where the fat content is, and the babies need that even if they stop nursing before that point. It would probably be a good idea to pump and collect that and offer the hindmilk from the prior pump to the babies after each feed. She can also start a freezer stash if she gets overwhelmed with pumped milk. Their appetite will increase soon. 

I had babies diagnosed FTT and EPed with the second. Kellymom website is a good resource. 

How much fatty stuff should be in pumped milk ? 
also I’ve questioned this - if she’s pumping after they feed then is she producing too much? Can babies get full and not get to the hind milk? I just nursed my 4 without all of this complication so yes I’ve done this but this side of it is all new to me. I never pumped at all and my kiddos never had a bottle. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Holy crap.  You have got to be kidding.

It’s crazy. I’ve had friends who were good parents where DSS was called for less. It’s insane you almost have to fear a pediatrician. 

[Brittany1116]

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

How much fatty stuff should be in pumped milk ? 
also I’ve questioned this - if she’s pumping after they feed then is she producing too much? Can babies get full and not get to the hind milk? I just nursed my 4 without all of this complication so yes it’s done this but this side of it is all new to me. 

It can vary thoughout the day, and by person. With my first, my milk looked like skim and I could almost read through it. I supplemented formula for him. By my second, I learned so much more about diet and effective pumping, and would have from 1/4 to 1 inch of fat on top of a settled bottle. Yes, they can get full on sheer volume alone, or just tire from the effort of eating and refuse more. Someone above mentioned pumping BEFORE nursing, so you can store the foremilk and baby gets the hindmilk directly. Also a great idea.

[denarii]

I breastfed my twins for 3 years but the first few weeks were crazy hard. 

Is she tandem feeding? That helped me a ton and the stimulation of both nipples can help production. 

I used a supplemental nursing system in the hospital and the set up is frustrating. If they can latch well, deep latch with no ties, getting them on the breast as much as possible is the best thing. 

And mama needs calories. A lot more than people think IMO. My husband was in charge of my food lol and I surprised myself by how much I ate when it was available. 

 

[Brittany1116]

Just now, denarii said:

 

And mama needs calories. A lot more than people think IMO. My husband was in charge of my food lol and I surprised myself by how much I ate when it was available. 

 

I agree, calories may be down. I lost a scary amount of weight in the first week breastfeeding and pumping for my second. I ate nutrient dense foods, but could never get enough, and I only had one baby to feed.

[KungFuPanda]

Is she able to tandem nurse yet? My twin mamma friends told me that there’s a learning curve for that but it’s all that saved their sanity and let them continue nursing as long as they did. Some sets of twins might relax and nurse better and longer with their sibling nearby.  
 

Dd has some nursing challenges and they have to give her baby a prescribed amount of formula before he nurses. (I think it’s one or two ounces) This takes the edge off so he’s still very hungry but less frantic, latches better, and settles in to nurse for a good session. I hadn’t heard of supplementing first, but apparently it’s a lesser known trick for her particular issue. They’re also trying to do both so they have to juggle that. 

[rebcoola]

1 hour ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Ok so milk supply question….

I got here to a very sleep deprived and out of sorts dd. I guess they cluster fed all night. I think she needs good sleep. I currently have both babies on my chest and under a fleece blanket. They’re sacked. How long can I let her sleep without it messing up her supply? Especially if they nursed all night? They’ll take a bottle and I have her pumped milk so they’ll be good. 

4 hours is what I was told by my lactation consultant until things are well established.  Hopefully they wake and do a good feeding for the consultant 

Yes, they are basically manic about co-sleeping thing.  I never did anyways since I can’t lay and nurse with my big old N bOOks that are bigger than the baby. 

I did appreciate better info about the uterine wound and why no tEA before 6 weeks. With my first i just thought it would be more painful.

They also had a lot more info about PPD/A and a whole pamphlet on setting the baby down some place safe and walking away is the safest thing if you are overwhelmed, stressed, or frustrated.

[Lecka]

I hope the lactation appointment goes well!

 

My twins were my 2nd and 3rd child, I think it makes a big difference.  I was confident about nursing.  
 

They look good to me in the picture!

 

I think logically (with my logic) if a young baby isn’t eating as much as an older baby will, it makes sense that many women would be able to produce enough milk for two little babies.  
 

I do think when my son was getting older, maybe he was hungrier for solids because he wasn’t getting as much milk as he wanted.  But he was also in the regular range to be more interested in solids.  But it sounds like she’s producing milk, she’s pumping, there is milk there.  
 

I would only say anything like that (or anything at all) that seems like it would be received well.  But I do think it logically.  I am friends with someone right now with a 20+ pound 1yo who still nurses a lot, and is also moving into table foods.  This baby has got to be consuming more milk than two tiny babies. 
 

Well this makes sense to me anyways.  
 

I do hope things are better today and the LC goes well!

[kbutton]

49 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

It’s crazy. I’ve had friends who were good parents where DSS was called for less. It’s insane you almost have to fear a pediatrician. 

Medicine is getting CYA to the point that you can't get care without exposing yourself to some kind of undue scrutiny. ADHD meds for adults is a big hairy deal where you get treated like a criminal. There is nothing common sense you can do to sleep while having children. Small wonder people without resources are more likely to have their children confiscated when they don't have the flexibility to follow every draconian piece of advice.

This definitely had an effect on how many children we had, though it wasn't ultimately determinative. 

20 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

They also had a lot more info about PPD/A

I wonder if they mention pressure from pediatricians and all the red tape you must go through with an infant if even the slightest thing is off and how many times you'll be at the pediatrician in the first few weeks defending yourself with your sleep deprived brain, cracked nipples, etc. 

I have some PTSD about this; this is where a lot of my medical trauma started. No one apologizes later when you are a better advocate for your kid than the CYA guidelines are, but medical people don't listen when your kid has an issue that's out of the range of typical that you're picking up on. They care only about what they care about. Anxiety and depression are sometimes a direct result of knowing something is off and no one cares, especially if what they care about is not even really an issue or induces undue guilt and pressure for the degree of importance.

OP, you are doing a great job, and I hope that you can reassure your daughter that things will be okay. I had singletons, but I experienced similar degrees of pressure with both of my kids and also had similar levels of sleep deprivation, pumping, etc. It was hateful and awful, and I internalized so much of it because I was offered no alternate narrative.

[sweet2ndchance]

1 hour ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Can babies get full and not get to the hind milk?

Yes they can. I had over supply issues with my first and he had all the typical signs of watery stool and constantly wanting to nurse but never seeming to get full and happy. If she is pumping a lot she could absolutely be producing too much foremilk for tiny newborns to be able to stay on long enough to get hindmilk which is what gives them the calories and the carbohydrates to stay full.

Hopefully the lactation consultant today has some common sense and can really tell if they are just healthy and small or actually struggling with nursing. It's probably too late now, but I always tried to make sure baby was very hungry and ready to eat for appointments like this. I'd let them sleep a little long just before the appointment or only give them a little bit if they insisted on nursing before the appointment just to make sure they were good and hungry for the nurse or whoever wanted to see them nurse.

If the doctor or the LC really does insist on bottles after nursing sessions, you could always give expressed milk instead of formula and make sure it's rich in hind milk. I would pour off my fire hose style let downs which were all watery foremilk and just pump the hind milk after the let down and give that in the bottle. There is no shame in giving a baby a bottle if that is really what needs to be done. I did a combination of bottles and nursing with my kids. The ones that truly needed bottles like my dysphagia baby grew up just as well as the other kids. My nursers did fine with a bottle now and then and still nursed into toddlerhood.

I know it's hard, especially in a hostile parenting environment like it sounds like the hospital and community in general are in your area but I would just support your dd as much as humanly possible. Maybe remind her that she knew what was best when she told the doctor that she was pushing that second baby out and nothing has changed. She still knows what is best for her babies. 🙂 

[73349]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

No one apologizes later when you are a better advocate for your kid than the CYA guidelines are, but medical people don't listen when your kid has an issue that's out of the range of typical that you're picking up on. They care only about what they care about.

True here as well.

Don't get me wrong: I love a checklist. But the checklist is not meant to supplant good judgment.

Edited March 9, 2023 by 73349

[Clarita]

6 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

What do y’all think about cosleeping in general? It is super controversial right? 

So a few caveats about co-sleeping. Can it be dangerous? Yes. Are drug induced co-sleeping deaths included in co-sleeping death statistics? Also, yes. This isn't related but I think where the statistics come in this statement has helped me wrap my head around the statistical analysis around babies. We say back is best now and that it reduced the chance of SIDS by 30% so back is best. Just note that at the height of when they recommended babies to sleep on their tummies the SIDS death was 3% of babies. After they implemented back is best (after analyzing known baby deaths) that reduced to 2% so 30% reduction. This was all based on a study which included millions of babies.

Every parent has to decide whether they want to do that because you know you best. So if your daughter doesn't feel comfortable with the idea then I wouldn't push it because she wouldn't be able to sleep that way if she's worried about it.

She can place the babies in bassinets next to her bed to reduce travel time. They also have bassinets that attach to beds and bassinets that go in the bed. I set up a whole pumping station next to my bed with 2 coolers so I'd pump put all the pump things into one cooler, and the pumped milk into the other cooler and go back to bed. I didn't do the dishes until the day/more awake time or make my husband/helper do it.  In a few months, the babies won't be newborns anymore and will not need to feed so frequently too, so the sleep deprivation will ease. So, as the grandmother you may need that perspective too. 

[Clarita]

6 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

They drilled it so hard and even had to sign papers. It’s just wild to me that they made such an issue of it that dd isn’t sleeping at night even though she’s not cosleeping 

Tell her to put the bassinet close enough to her that she can hear her babies breathing. I would go to sleep and sleep with my baby's breathing.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Just note that at the height of when they recommended babies to sleep on their tummies the SIDS death was 3% of babies. After they implemented back is best (after analyzing known baby deaths) that reduced to 2% so 30% reduction.

This is getting off track, but I just wanted to clarify that it’s nowhere close to this high. I was already worried enough about it, I don’t think I would’ve slept a wink the first year if it was this common! In 2019 it was 0.033% of live births (33 out of 100,000 babies). Still totally horribly awful, but 3% would be so scary I don’t know if I would have risked having a baby!

[Renai]

6 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

What do y’all think about cosleeping in general? It is super controversial right? 
I stuck to the rule hard with #1 and #2 but then I feel like #3 co slept some for my own sanity but I can’t remember if I did it so little 

Our hospital was the opposite. They always put the baby in bed with me, but had the bassinet right next to the bed. But, if your dd can't sleep like that, don't. It seems like she's not sleeping anyway. She doesn't need the added stress. Shortening the distance between her bed and the babies will have to do. (and there's nothing wrong with that)

Someone mentioned nutrition - make sure she is eating enough. I didn't have twins. I'm a small woman (less than 5 foot) that gave birth to almost a 9-pounder. I couldn't lose below a certain weight or my milk supply dropped. I had to maintain more weight than I wanted to keep breastfeeding her, and it was around-the-clock, every 1.5 hours for a while (she had lost a lot of weight in the first couple of weeks). It's exhausting. I can't imagine with twins. My dh and older dd (kids are 11 years apart) took her when she wasn't eating so I could sleep. The first 6 months are almost a blur, and I feel I woke up right around that 6 month mark. I'm glad your daughter has you to help.

The idea about pumping first, then allowing the babies to get the hindmilk may be a good one. I had dd nursing on one side for two feedings before switching to make sure she got the hindmilk, but I just had the one.

So, eat, rest when she can, and feed the babies. That's what she can do, and she's not failing for doing so. The medical establishment can make us so frantic and stressed, and it is unhelpful to our milk supply, our overall attitude towards the babies, and even getting enough rest.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Idk y’all this lactation consultant came into the room telling dd that their weight is a problem and we need to put them on bottles? She’s offered no support so far. She says whatever we try won’t be enough. Hopefully she’ll offer some sort of ideas before we leave.