Well..that was fun.

[BakersDozen]

Because most of our dc have been sick recently, we met our YA dc at a local park on Xmas Eve. When we arrived, dd23 was already there along w/her boyfriend and dd19. They got out of the car and were wearing masks - not flimsy, cheap ones, either. Now we're outside, on top of a hill, breeze blowing, and they kept their distance w/masks on. OK, message received. I kept my own distance even though I was almost in tears and just wanted to hug the heck out of my girls. Dd23 walked toward the park where her younger siblings had raced to while I talked, at a distance, w/dd19. It wasn't until dd19 came up and hugged me that there was any contact. We joined the others and all seemed fine. Dd23 did come up and ask me if she got a hug as well, and so we hugged and all was fine. Or was it???

I got a message from her the next day that held nothing back: I don't love her, I prefer dd19 as the favorite, I wouldn't hug her, etc. She brought up things from months and months ago that I didn't even know were issues! And she included the entire family in this. Did not come to me privately, did not ask questions or seek more details in order to understand. It was just BLAM!!! BLAST!!! BOOM!!! Accusations flying that left me stunned.

I cannot win. As a mom, I cannot win. I try to respect their boundaries and I'm wrong. Something happens and I want to help them, am told no, stay home, and months later I'm horrible in their eyes because of it. I cannot win.

Needless to say, yesterday was really, really crummy. Dd19 came over and all was well, but dd23 would not come over at all.

Yeah, it was a great (not) day yesterday.

[freesia]

I am so sorry your dd treated you like that. She must be really struggling right now. You did not deserve that. 

[YaelAldrich]

I'm so sorry. Knowing all too well how YA-parent relationships can be from my own YA kids, I have extra sadness for you as this is supposed to be a season of joy and family time. It's true that your d@mned if you do and d@mned if you don't when their minds have you pegged as the bad guy. Just keep trying to love them as adults. 

[Kassia]

23 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

I'm so sorry. Knowing all too well how YA-parent relationships can be from my own YA kids, I have extra sadness for you as this is supposed to be a season of joy and family time. It's true that your d@mned if you do and d@mned if you don't when their minds have you pegged as the bad guy. Just keep trying to love them as adults. 

So well said.  

Sending hugs.  I'm very sorry.

[Halftime Hope]

I'm so sorry! I have such a prickly dd. I never dreamed it would be this way with young adults; we certainly didn't raise our children this way and never modeled "difficult to please" with them. I have one young adult that is not prickly; it's such a relief.

Anyway, I'm sorry -- you have my sympathy.

 

[Melissa in Australia]

What does YA mean? 

[Just Kate]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

What does YA mean? 

Young adult

[lauraw4321]

I’m sorry. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs

[Melissa in Australia]

5 minutes ago, Just Kate said:

Young adult

Thanks

I thought it might be some illness or condition. 

[Jaybee]

4 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I thought it might be some illness or condition. 

Well, sometimes it sort of is...😬

[Melissa in Australia]

Nah, just a stage of life. I have 5 children between 28 and 19. 

[Jaybee]

Just now, Melissa in Australia said:

Nah, just a stage of life. I have 5 children between 28 and 19. 

Yes, that was said very much tongue in cheek. I have 6 from 36 to 19, so very similar. It's bumpy navigating sometimes. I love having adult children, but it can be hard.

[Ditto]

I'm very sorry for both the way she is treating you and for the horrible pain it is causing you.

[mommyoffive]

Oh I am sorry.  I think you have had other issues with this kid right?  It is not as simple as just giving advice, with no background issues.   Did either of you broach the covid or sick issue that was in the air since they were wearing masks?  I don't know your thoughts or what you do or what she thinks on it either.  But for me as a still mask wearer it is just something I like to have an easy breezy sort of passing conversation about and I have appreciated the openness about it with others who are respectful of my stance but just want to check things before doing something.  

Maybe this isn't any of the issue as I wasn't there and don't know all the details of the past.  

I am sorry you are hurting.

[gardenmom5]

I'm sorry.  It sucks.

I wish someone had warned us that we can't win . . . 

1dd is currently barely speaking to me - and only if she *has* to. . . 1ds is currently living with her, he thinks she's nuts and is desperately looking for an apartment. 2ds .  can be very mouthy  . . . asked me what I did to get so lucky . . . (he attends a weekly activity with her.)

[Katy]

I’m sorry. 

[gardenmom5]

55 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Nah, just a stage of life. I have 5 children between 28 and 19. 

A friend commented our we don't skip stages . . . even if that means they hit the "exerting their independence" stage well into adulthood . . . 

my most rebellious teen - is the one who is most affectionate and loving towards me now.

Now - if someone would just tell me how to encourage my cat to be affectionate and loving towards me . . . (he does follow me around - at a distance.)

[*****]

Were WE that way to our own parents when we were young adults?   My kids are going through this stage right now and one is more of an offender than the other, so I understand what OP is going through.          Honestly, we did our own thing through college and just beyond.  But I don't remember even thinking of blaming, accusing or confronting my parents. Got my college degree, began to gain experience as I went from 1 opportunity to the next as I got my career started.  The only thing I reflected on were my experiences in college, wishing I had made different choices when I noticed I probably could have done better (usually pertaining to hanging out with a different crowd.)

It just dawned on me it is more prevalent now and I am wondering what is the difference the way things are now  compared to long ago?  Too many anxieties in the world today?  

I'm sorry that happened, Baker's Dozen.  The only thing I can think of for standoffish appearance was due to the conversations before this related to the earlier sickness of the younger kids (did they have covid?)  Therefore, they were in full defense mode as they had practiced the last 2 years.  They wanted to be cautious, which was ok for them to do. But, it would have been up to her to approach you for a hug, what ever she was comfortable with.  You were just being respectful of her wishes to keep distance.   

[marbel]

1 hour ago, ***** said:

Were WE that way to our own parents when we were young adults? 

Well, I don't recall being that way, but I have 2 siblings who were. I was born in 1956 and siblings are older than me, so it was a good while ago. Not a new thing. I think I just didn't see my mom the way my sibs did. Or, she was different with me as the youngest. 🤷‍♀️ Anyway, I am sorry, @BakersDozen FWIW, the breaks in my family didn't last past young adulthood. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, ***** said:

It just dawned on me it is more prevalent now and I am wondering what is the difference the way things are now  compared to long ago?

I’ve pondered this before, as it strikes me interesting that the generation of parents who seem to me to have been much more deliberate and purposeful about trying to cultivate good relationships with their kids seem more likely to face backlash from them than previous generations where parents may have been more “hard” and objectively not been as kind to their kids.  Maybe my impression about that is wrong, though. I’d guess people might say kids just feel more able to directly call out things they don’t like from their parents than previous generations. It’s probably situational whether that’s overall fair and if that’s a net good or net bad in each family. 

[Melissa in Australia]

17 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’ve pondered this before, as it strikes me interesting that the generation of parents who seem to me to have been much more deliberate and purposeful about trying to cultivate good relationships with their kids seem more likely to face backlash from them than previous generations where parents may have been more “hard” and objectively not been as kind to their kids.  Maybe my impression about that is wrong, though. I’d guess people might say kids just feel more able to directly call out things they don’t like from their parents than previous generations. It’s probably situational whether that’s overall fair and if that’s a net good or net bad in each family. 

I am not sure I agree. I am a child of the early 70s My mum definately brought me up the old fashioned way. Strap hanging on the wall in the kitchen etc..  She didn't worry too much about "cultivating relationships" she had 8 kids, she was more concerned about feeding and clothing and bringing up to be good Christian citizens than relationships. 

I didn't speak to her for about 3 years when I was in my early 20s

Edited December 27, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I am not sure I agree. I am a child of the early 70s My mum definately brought me up the old fashioned way. Strap hanging on the wall in the kitchen etc..  She didn't worry too much about "cultivating relationships" she had 8 kids, she was more concerned about feeding and clothing and bringing up to be good Christian citizens than relationships. 

I didn't speak to her for about 3 years when I was in my early 20s

Yeah, as I said, I have no idea if it holds true or only seems that way. I’d guess it was more common then for people to just stop speaking to each other, like you did. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Maybe it has everything to do with having mobile phones nowadays? Easier to send nasty messages? 

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, ***** said:

 

Were WE that way to our own parents when we were young adults?   

 

My sister (Millennial) and I (X) were just talking yesterday about the differences between us and our mother (Boomer). Primarily that she and I emote a whole lot more, her more than me, while Mom internalizes until she snaps and plays the “I know, I’m such a horrible parent/person/whatever” card.

Anyway, I’m in a stage of parenting young adults, and I recently started talking to my kids about just HOW much I’m winging it, because I was not patented as a young adult. I had some frame of reference for newborn to 18, but that’s it.   I wasn’t thrown out on the street or anything, but I had no guidance or emotional support.
I didn’t ask my mother for more than she could/would/did “give”. Honestly, I harbor resentments that I’m working on. My kids want more, and I try. I don’t always succeed, but they do know I try!

 I’m currently in the midst of a combination of big wins and big losses. 😛 

We’ve made our way through some real lows. Hoping for the best for @BakersDozen

[Kidlit]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

Anyway, I’m in a stage of parenting young adults, and I recently started talking to my kids about just HOW much I’m winging it, because I was not patented as a young adult. I had some frame of reference for newborn to 18, but that’s it.   I wasn’t thrown out on the street or anything, but I had no guidance or emotional support.
I didn’t ask my mother for more than she could/would/did “give”. Honestly, I harbor resentments that I’m working on. My kids want more, and I try. I don’t always succeed, but they do know I try!

 

I hope I'm not thread hijacking, but what does guidance and emotional support look like for YAs in your household?  Without providing too much personal info, at our house it is difficult because of personality differences and because of latent resentment over some feelings of abandonment during a medical crisis.  I would love to make this better but I genuinely don't know how. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I have one sister who is completely estranged from my parents, though in the last year she’s re-established contact with us as siblings.

Another sister, my youngest sibling in her early 20s, has gone NC with everyone but especially my parents, though they still have her phone number and she’s still on their health insurance, but she doesn’t respond to calls and texts in a year. Her issue is that when she came to visit for a week a year and a half ago, my mom didn’t make enough time for her.  My mom is a full time caregiver for my grandmother and while my personal belief is that she needs to stop prioritizing my grandmother(who refuses to go into a nursing home) over her own kids and grandkids(she has three grandkids she’s never met because they live across the country, and she can’t leave my grandmother long enough and only has one paid caregiver as no home caregivers here will do incontinence care at all), it wasn’t really out of selfishness that she didn’t spend as much time with my sister as sister wanted. Her gripe with me is similar—to be fair, she flew in at the last minute and I wasn’t able to take time off work, so I only was able to see her once.

My parents should have done a whole lot of things differently, like I believe my mom should have worked all through my childhood instead of homeschooling, because we lived in deep rural poverty and isolation for a long time. They also should have had fewer children. It would have been much less stress which would have been beneficial for everyone, but they fell into this evangelical semi Quiverfull philosophy. But there is nothing that can change that now, and I don’t see any point in going NC—like that isn’t going to change the poor lifestyle choices that they made.  I am 41 and the number of people I know who are no contact with their parents, who are not abusive, just annoying or don’t live up to their expectations, is kind of astonishing.  The great majority come are my homeschooled friend from high school, and I kind of wonder if there’s a connection.

(I am not bashing homeschooling; I am a second gen homeschooler myself, but I wonder how many people prioritized a school choice over relationships)

I spend a lot of time thinking about the choices I’m making and how to have good relationships with my (future) adult children.  Or maybe they’ll be mad that I work so much(it’s two days a week but 24 hour shifts) and decide not to talk to me.  I feel like it’s all a crap shoot. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Carrie12345]

44 minutes ago, Kidlit said:

I hope I'm not thread hijacking, but what does guidance and emotional support look like for YAs in your household?  Without providing too much personal info, at our house it is difficult because of personality differences and because of latent resentment over some feelings of abandonment during a medical crisis.  I would love to make this better but I genuinely don't know how. 

Speaking only for my experience, and just a quick example because I’m short on time - 

My YAs share a lot. Not over share, imo, but venting about work problems, friend issues, money, dating, plans for the future, whatever. And I listen. Depending on the context, I might just show empathy, or I might feel out openness to gentle suggestions, or I might ask if they need help hiding a body, or I might (and only if I’m confident in our communication in the moment) jump in and point out how ridiculous they’re being.

For me, that’s a huge difference from the “your gonna do what you’re gonna do” position I’m used to. Flunk out of college? That’s disappointing. Feeling lost? Figure it out. Get pregnant?  Don’t ask for help. Get married at 23, 8 months after meeting someone? Congrats, no questions asked. Have a rough first year? Well, life is hard; you’ll get through it.

The few attempts I’ve made to discuss things as a “real” adult have been met with offense. Sometimes that’s my automatic default with my own kids, but then I try to push through that and understand where they’re coming from. That usually requires accepting vulnerabilities in more conversation.

(And, just to reiterate, it’s still far from perfect!)

[Sneezyone]

14 hours ago, KSera said:

I’ve pondered this before, as it strikes me interesting that the generation of parents who seem to me to have been much more deliberate and purposeful about trying to cultivate good relationships with their kids seem more likely to face backlash from them than previous generations where parents may have been more “hard” and objectively not been as kind to their kids.  Maybe my impression about that is wrong, though. I’d guess people might say kids just feel more able to directly call out things they don’t like from their parents than previous generations. It’s probably situational whether that’s overall fair and if that’s a net good or net bad in each family. 

I think that’s because kids need a mix of boundaries/structure and love and that will vary for each child. Too many/few boundaries=bad, too little/much (smothering)=bad. For my mother, love=money and material things which she could give/withhold as needed to achieve her goals. It was a disaster.

I don’t know where my relationships with DC will end up but I’m very much in Carrie’s lane, preferring to be honest about my strengths and weaknesses, refer to other trusted adults as needed, and stay open to whatever they do/say. I don’t know how things will ultimately turn out but I’m optimistic. We’ve certainly had tumultuous moments. I’d rather have them/deal with them as we go than all at once after they leave.

I’m sorry OP is struggling in this way. There seems to be a lot of that here of late.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sneezyone

[iamonlyone]

OP, I'm so sorry! That is not the Christmas anyone wants. FWIW, our eldest was very defensive and critical of me for a couple years. When she turned 27, it was like a light switch, and now we are doing well, relationally.

[katilac]

That's so hard, I'm sorry. 

[BakersDozen]

So sorry I could not return to this thread sooner! I'm still dealing with some sick kiddos and other stuff.

OK, so this particular dd is a fiesty one - fiercely independent and openly scornful of any kind of concern or help offered. This is one who always had everything figured out (even if she did not) and was going to do what she wanted, how she wanted. I've tried to follow her cues as far as involvement and interaction, especially as those cues are fairly strong. We've had long periods of no interaction (not for a negative reason, just her living her life and not wanting us/me involved), then periods of some interaction, and now more on her part of reaching out and investing (some) in the family. So it's been good and I honestly thought all was well. Whew, was I wrong. 😞

A few months ago she got involved with high school plans and my 17yod (who has, unfortunately, gone to dd for advice). My volatile dd called me (I had no clue she and her sister had been talking) and what ensued was a spewing of things she was angry about from her growing-up years that shocked me, and then she hung up on me. I didn't have a chance to say one word. That situation simmered down and again, I thought all was well. Wrong again.

When dd19 was getting ready to fly home from Boston, most of my dc were sick. So instead of dd19 coming straight home, dd23 offered to pick her up from the airport and keep her for a few days until the sickness had passed. All of these plans were set up between my dds - I did not request that dd23 get involved, she just did it and it seemed to work great as the girls had a great time together. But in dd's tirade, she threw at me that she spent her gas money picking up MY child and then paid extra for dd19 to stay in a hotel which dd23 had reserved for her time where we live. Also included was how dd23 was paying for food expenses, etc. On and on it went - the guilt trip for things I was completely unaware of. And again, I never asked for any of this "help." At any time, dd19 had a place to stay for no cost which would have not been around sick kids. But both girls were in agreement with the arrangement and so nothing was thought to be an issue. Good grief.

Then dd23 went on to list other things which she holds against me - everything from her college education, her weight/health, her finances. It was an exhaustive list that left me dumbstruck. To top it all off, she began her tirade with accusing me of gaslighting. What in the what?!?! Believe me, I examined her missive closely and tried to see where she was getting any foundation for her accusations, but I came up empty. She was over the top angry and blaming me for things that left me shaking my head.

Now all of that I would have discussed with her, listened to her, maybe not agreed but at least heard her out. But this girl brought so many other people into this without giving me once chance at a private conversation. That is NOT how we roll in our family at all. Oh my gosh, the things dd23 has done that no one else knows about...whew. But never, never, never did I divulge her private life or our private issues with anyone else - not even her siblings know/knew. So the fact that she did a "shotgun" message to me that spread to others is what has me so, so angry.

I did respond to her (and everyone else on the number list) that while I do not dismiss dd's feelings, I will not engage in the manner which she set up. If she wants to talk privately or with a third party involved, I am willing, but as a family I expect us to approach conflict privately.

And here's where it gets more interesting..... Dh's response was this: "Dd23, I want you to know that I read your message and that I hear you."

That was it. Nothing more. I saw that and my heart sank. Why? Because I knew dd23 would take it as she did - confirmation that she is right and I am wrong. When I presented this to dh, he adamantly and angrily declared that he never agreed with dd and that he thinks she is wrong. But sure enough, here came her response: "Dad, I thank you for your acknowledgement and support. Mom, it's OK, I still love you regardless."

And that's where things stand. She's beyond hurt that I did not hug her at the park, yet I didn't hug dd19 until she approached ME for a huge. But when I see 3 YAs with hefty masks and I know they are very concerned with getting sick, I didn't race for a hug and neither did any of us - dh or the other dc. But from that, the volcano of emotions erupted with dd23.

I've told her again that I love her and that I have no favorite dds/dc. Silence from her.

[BakersDozen]

16 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I feel like it’s all a crap shoot. 

This is what I think, too. Things we tried, things we were told would result in such-and-such with our YAs backfired badly. So we switched things up in hopes of a better outcome, but at this point I truly believe that it's 99.99% luck as far as raising kids. I/we thought we were doing mostly the right thing w/dd23. She clearly expressed what she did/did not want, we respected those requests, and now here comes the blame.

I also believe that with some people, it's d*mned if you do, d*mned if you don't. No matter what I do or do not do, I cannot win and things will be my fault. I just didn't see it coming in this way from dd23 - not to this extreme, at least.

It's insane...I didn't have scales in the house as I didn't want my dc to be fixated on their weight. For all their growing up years, the message was, "It's about being healthy and strong." I didn't put expectation on my dds about body size/shape; I didn't fixate on that myself (so they didn't hear it). Dd is VERY underweight (yes, she has an eating issue) and it is somehow my fault.

I hold out hope that as my dc move out of YA stage (which I must say is my least favorite age/stage of all), relationships will be restored and I will not be blamed for everything either real or imagined.

 

[BakersDozen]

17 hours ago, Kidlit said:

I hope I'm not thread hijacking, but what does guidance and emotional support look like for YAs in your household?

Dh and I were divided regarding this at one point (well, we still are). Dh wanted to "get in their faces and call them out, get others involved," etc. when our YAs did something with which he did not agree. That was not happening. I came to a point where I realized that our YAs are making their decisions, and my message to them has been that the lights are always on, the doors are unlocked (literally), and there is always a place for them to sit and talk (or not talk), eat, sleep, or just chill. After a brutal time with our oldest dd and a pretty rough time with the next 3 dc (the oldest 4 were born in 4 years, so we got to experience YA angst in mass form all at once - fun times), I try very hard to let them know that they are SAFE with me. I don't dish out unwanted advice. If they come to me and just want to talk, I listen and don't say a word. If they ask for my opinion, I make it gentle. I respect their privacy and do not share with the others what is going on (unless I have permission). If there is something I feel strongly enough to approach them about, I phrase a question: "May I ask if you would consider?" or "Is it OK if we talk about...?" Everything I wish had been shown/done with me (and with dh by his mom), I wanted to do w/my own dc. And I thought it would work so well...sigh.

I guess in some ways it has. Of my oldest 4, 3 of them have restored relationships with me/us and they know they are safe in the way I'd hoped. Given how bad it got with all 4 of them in different ways, to have 3 of them "back" is still astonishing to me. There was a time when I was sure I would never see/hear from any of them again. 😞

But darn it, my approach didn't work with all of them. I thought it had...I had no clue how very wrong I was. I feel quite discouraged, to be honest. Knowing what a crap shoot this all is, I want to give up because what's the point in trying so hard if it doesn't really matter? That's the blah part of me reacting - I have to fight pretty hard against that.

[scholastica]

It’s hard. Some people have a hard time accepting responsibility for their own choices and lives. So she blames you. Also, YAs know just enough to think they know everything and can make judgments based on that knowledge. It takes a bit of living to be humbled into knowing you don’t know everything. Also, there is no parallel universe in which you made different choices and her life turned perfectly. This life isn’t perfect, there are no perfect parents and happiness is a choice. At some point, and that point is now that she is an independent person no longer under your wing, to take responsibility for one’s own life. 

[HomeAgain]

On 12/26/2022 at 2:43 PM, BakersDozen said:

 Dd23 walked toward the park where her younger siblings had raced to while I talked, at a distance, w/dd19. It wasn't until dd19 came up and hugged me that there was any contact. We joined the others and all seemed fine. Dd23 did come up and ask me if she got a hug as well, and so we hugged and all was fine. Or was it???

I got a message from her the next day that held nothing back: I don't love her, I prefer dd19 as the favorite, I wouldn't hug her, etc. She brought up things from months and months ago that I didn't even know were issues! And she included the entire family in this. Did not come to me privately, did not ask questions or seek more details in order to understand. It was just BLAM!!! BLAST!!! BOOM!!! Accusations flying that left me stunned.
 

I don't want to pile on because this was obviously out of nowhere for you......but I keep coming back to these two bits in your post.  I think you need to reach out to dd23 alone, and keep reaching out to invite her to neutral territory with you.  Invite her to coffee.  Invite her to a hike.  Just keep inviting her for one on one time.

From an outsider's perspective, it sounds like she didn't feel like she was part of the conversation with you and dd19, and so took her leave of it.  That cascaded and snowballed into other times she felt the same way.

[KSera]

10 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

To top it all off, she began her tirade with accusing me of gaslighting. What in the what?!?!

I think a lot of people accusing others of gaslighting them don't actually even understand the term. It seems to be used super frequently and commonly right now. So she may have meant something totally different from what gaslighting means.

 

10 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

I feel quite discouraged, to be honest. Knowing what a crap shoot this all is, I want to give up because what's the point in trying so hard if it doesn't really matter?

I'm sorry. Raising young adults is super humbling this way. When they were younger, everything was great and I thought I could take credit for how well everything was going, but young adulthood has been bumpier than I expected and I realize most things are out of our control as parents when they get older, and I shouldn't take either credit or blame for much of it. I agree continuing to reach out and leave the door open is probably the best you can do.

[scholastica]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

I think a lot of people accusing others of gaslighting them don't actually even understand the term. It seems to be used super frequently and commonly right now. So she may have meant something totally different from what gaslighting means.

One of the dictionaries made it their word of the year this year because of its rate of usage.

Link to story.

Edited December 28, 2022 by scholastica
Adding link

[iamonlyone]

17 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

 I feel quite discouraged, to be honest. Knowing what a crap shoot this all is, I want to give up because what's the point in trying so hard if it doesn't really matter? That's the blah part of me reacting - I have to fight pretty hard against that.

It does matter. You matter. I know you know this because of your last sentence, but the moments, days, months and years that you have nurtured and loved each of your children matter.

I don't know if this framing helps you at all but, at some point, it occurred to me that I am not just helping to shape others' lives, they are shaping mine as well. So, while my family's love and encouragement helps me grow, I have also seen how adversity helps me grow. Someone mentioned the humility of being a parent of YAs. I would never, never have chosen to live through some of the seasons we have had with a couple of our children, but I also believe I am more patient, kinder, more empathetic, stronger in faith and self-identity (and yes, humbler) because of living through those, and other, very difficult times.

Verbal attacks hurt in a different way than do physical ones, but there is definitely a healing process from verbal attacks too. Hang in there, and take care of yourself: rest, read, walk, seek beauty and truth, pray/meditate.

[BakersDozen]

12 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I don't want to pile on because this was obviously out of nowhere for you......but I keep coming back to these two bits in your post.  I think you need to reach out to dd23 alone, and keep reaching out to invite her to neutral territory with you.  Invite her to coffee.  Invite her to a hike.  Just keep inviting her for one on one time.

From an outsider's perspective, it sounds like she didn't feel like she was part of the conversation with you and dd19, and so took her leave of it.  That cascaded and snowballed into other times she felt the same way.

I will do this for sure - reach out to her. She kept us completely out of her life for so long - lived literally 2 miles away and we saw her maybe twice/year. No enmity, just her doing her thing and not wanting/needing any involvement from us. If I did try to reach out, my attempt was met with a polite yet clear, "Nope." So now she's returning to family stuff and I'm sure the events which we were totally unaware of as hurtful, were very hurtful to her.