C/P: Interesting article about college standards and student behavior

[Innisfree]

9 minutes ago, EKS said:

Changing standards won't help if the system itself isn't changed to support working toward those standards.

Things that need to happen:

• Developing a clear idea of what the purpose of education is in our society and for each individual
• Acknowledgement that not everyone can move at the same pace and that not everyone will end up in the same place at the end  
• If we want people to actually learn things, we need to require mastery along the way AND we need to invest in the infrastructure to support that mastery
• Understanding that teaching content is critical--to reading ability, to understanding the world, and to student engagement--and that standards that are divorced from content are doomed to fail

Thank you for elaborating. I’d be happy to support all that.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I’m interested in how you design such a test in advance? I can certainly see looking at the distribution of scores that result from such a test and deciding that 80% or 50% is the appropriate cut-off for an A, but how do you write a college exam designed to do so?

I could easily do this for the math classes I teach (students who are not my own, but I work with them one on one, so not quite the same as a college class!).  

An exam where 90% is an appropriate cutoff for an A would be one that has problems that are very similar to the homework problems.  This allows the students who did the homework, understood it, and reviewed for the test to get an A with some wiggle room for silly errors.  If there are problems the go beyond the homework, a study guide with similar problems would be provided.  This is what students seem to expect these days.

An exam where 80% is an appropriate cutoff for an A would be one where approximately 10% of the points require the students to go beyond the homework by solving problems that they have not encountered before.  And an exam where 50% is an appropriate cutoff for an A would be similar to the 80% cutoff except with a higher percentage of points devoted to problems that stretch the students.  The exams in my science courses back in the 1980s were of this type (somewhere between 50-80% generally being the cutoff for an A).  

One thing I don't understand is why it seems obvious how to design a test where 90%+ is an A but not obvious for a lower cutoff to be an A.  The process is the same.

Edited October 6, 2022 by EKS

[Laura Corin]

55 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m interested in how you design such a test in advance? I can certainly see looking at the distribution of scores that result from such a test and deciding that 80% or 50% is the appropriate cut-off for an A, but how do you write a college exam designed to do so?

I took several grad classes for stats professors who worked for ACT as consultants. I still think the way they graded made the most sense. You have the basic 90/80/70 etc scale that guarantees students will get no lower than the letter grade associated with each category. But then you plot the distribution of scores and look for natural breaks and where they occur, you assign different grades. So maybe if the exam was harder than you anticipated, then 85 or 80 or 75 becomes the cutoff for an A. But if it was easier than expected, you don’t punish the students and say now 95% and above is an A.

Fwiw the threshold for an A in UK high school exams is much lower - around 75. The exams are not multi-choice and are designed with a lot of room at the top for the truly exceptional pupil to produce work that others cannot. At the university where I work an A equivalent is 82.5 with a similar rationale.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Laura Corin

[shawthorne44]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Really they should have put him in charge of math instruction and soared to the top of the rankings.  Except how would that look, if a school with a high ESL population was at the top of the rankings?   That would never be allowed.  

 

A similar but less spectacular example is DH.   He taught 5th(?) grade in a school that was only pretty bad but not as bad the Math teacher example or where I had taught.   But, as the new guy, he got the kids that the other teachers didn't want.   So, while there wasn't official tracking, there really was and he had the low-level.   He did things like class rewards when everyone had learned X.  So the smarter kids were explaining to the dumber kids.  He also taught testing skills.  In Texas, high stakes testing (for the schools) happens in that grade.   75% of his class was exempted from taking the test.   He told everyone that they were taking the test, and to just do their best.  Every single one of his kids passed the test, which wasn't true of the other 'smarter' classes.  DH was being punished for not teaching like everyone else did, and had been told that he wouldn't get a contract for the next year.  The other teachers were quite upset with him,  But, a day after they told him that, the principal got an award and a promotion for the improvement in 5th grade scores which was entirely due to DH's class.  The kids in his class that had been exempted were shocked and stoked that they passed the test.   Their attitude was, "Maybe I am not as dumb as they say I am."  
Homeschooling had been my idea, but he was an easy sell.  
 

 

 

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

A similar but less spectacular example is DH.   He taught 5th(?) grade in a school that was only pretty bad but not as bad the Math teacher example or where I had taught.   But, as the new guy, he got the kids that the other teachers didn't want.   So, while there wasn't official tracking, there really was and he had the low-level.   He did things like class rewards when everyone had learned X.  So the smarter kids were explaining to the dumber kids.  He also taught testing skills.  In Texas, high stakes testing (for the schools) happens in that grade.   75% of his class was exempted from taking the test.   He told everyone that they were taking the test, and to just do their best.  Every single one of his kids passed the test, which wasn't true of the other 'smarter' classes.  DH was being punished for not teaching like everyone else did, and had been told that he wouldn't get a contract for the next year.  The other teachers were quite upset with him,  But, a day after they told him that, the principal got an award and a promotion for the improvement in 5th grade scores which was entirely due to DH's class.  The kids in his class that had been exempted were shocked and stoked that they passed the test.   Their attitude was, "Maybe I am not as dumb as they say I am."  
Homeschooling had been my idea, but he was an easy sell.  
 

 

 

You left on a cliffhanger, did they give him a contract the next year after all or still fire him for such dramatic improvement? 

 

Stories like this are the why the idea that "there are no under-performing schools, they are performing exactly as they are intended"  rings so true.  It's clearly possible for these kids to be better served.  Yet serving them better leads to punishments not rewards. 

Its really hard to not see that a big issue is that talented teachers don't line anyone's pocket.  If they kids are behind the school can spend several million on "new, improved' curriculum, training on that curriculum and testing, lots of expensive testing, to show how great the curriculum is, rinse and repeat year after year

[Sneezyone]

Maybe, just maybe, the kids aren't 'dumb' and never were/have been but the state invests more in stadiums than instruction, banning books instead of adult incompetence, that undereducated kids are necessary cogs in the wheel of state economies, and it doesn't benefit campaign donors to change that.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

It's easy to spin this story as evidence of how lazy and entitled "kids these days" are, but in this case I think there's plenty of blame to go around. This prof not only had the worst reviews in the chemistry department, he had some of the worst reviews of all science profs in the entire university. Surely it's possible to teach a rigorous class without being "harsh," "condescending," "dismissive," "sarcastic," and "unresponsive." And the article explicitly states that the students did not ask for or expect Jones to be fired.

The outline of the students' complaints has been taken down now, but I thought a lot of them were reasonable. Why can't they train the TAs properly so they're teaching the same material, instead of all covering different material, including contradicting the text and what was taught in class? Why can't the labs and lab quizzes be standardized instead of having each TA write their own, with huge disparities in difficulty? Why should TAs be allowed to put students through a 4 hour lab and then refuse to answer any questions? Why shouldn't students expect to receive grades and feedback on their work in less than a month? Fixing those issues would not diminish course rigor in any way; if anything it would improve it. 

Also, the author misleadingly claims the students demanded "extra credit," when the request was actually for partial credit on exam questions that had multiple correct answers. The example given was that a student who clicked 3 of 4 correct answers got a 0 for that question instead of  partial credit. The complaint about cutting exams from 3 to 2 seems reasonable to me; two exams may reduce the professor's workload, but it makes an already high-stakes class even more difficult for students.

IMO the most important sentence in the article was "Do these courses really need to be punitive to be rigorous?" Is there really no way to teach orgo to high standards without flunking half the students? Are 50% failing because they're too dumb to understand the material or too lazy to do the work? Or is this class purposely designed to create an artificial bottleneck that only allows a small number of students through because of the limited number of med school slots? And how much easier is to squeeze through that bottleneck if you can afford a private tutor, if you can devote extra time to studying because you don't have a part-time job since your wealthy parents can foot the bill, if you can take a lower course load the semester you take orgo because you can afford to pick up extra credits in summer school instead of working full time?  And to what extent is that considered a feature not a bug?

[Heartstrings]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Maybe, just maybe, the kids aren't 'dumb' and never were/have been but the state invests more in stadiums than instruction, banning books instead of adult incompetence, that undereducated kids are necessary cogs in the wheel of state economies, and it doesn't benefit campaign donors to change that.

There’s way to much money to be made from poorly educating these kids to ever fix it.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by Heartstrings

[JennyD]

10 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m interested in how you design such a test in advance? I can certainly see looking at the distribution of scores that result from such a test and deciding that 80% or 50% is the appropriate cut-off for an A, but how do you write a college exam designed to do so?

I teach in a graduate program that has a mandatory curve, which is very standard for graduate programs of this type (although the curves themselves vary somewhat).  It takes a couple of years to get the hang of writing an exam that will give you the curve you need, but after teaching the same class a few times you start to get a good sense of how students tend to respond to different sorts of questions, and you can create a good mix.

Of course, if you get it wrong and the test turns out to be too easy or too hard, then you're in for some serious misery trying to make your curve.

While a mandatory curve has its drawbacks, it arguably makes things fairer for students who are assigned to different instructors for the same course.  

[Bambam]

On 10/5/2022 at 8:39 PM, matrips said:

Agreed!  We thought our kids would be able to make an easier workload for themselves because they’ll come in with so many credits.  But the scholarship requires 15/semester unless you want to go in the summer, so there goes that idea of less stress and more time for their core classes.  And they can’t race through due to prerequisites, so they’ll end up taking unnecessary courses. 🙄. Just hoping to make sure they’ll be gpa booster classes.

Sorta off topic, but in case this is an issue for anyone else, this was the setup for one child's scholarship - 15 credit hours/semester. I asked if you could use incoming DC credits to cover that if you had to drop one class for whatever reason. I was assured this was completely acceptable.  There were steps you had to go through, but it was doable. We never ended up needing to do it though.

Fast forward to senior year. Child is getting a combined bachelors and masters at the same time. Hard to take two graduate courses and three undergrad, so she checked, and wow - that 15 credit requirement was changed to 12. 

 

[EKS]

11 hours ago, JennyD said:

I teach in a graduate program that has a mandatory curve, which is very standard for graduate programs of this type (although the curves themselves vary somewhat). 

Could you explain what the curve looks like?

[JennyD]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Could you explain what the curve looks like?

A bell curve, pretty much; the median varies by school.  And it generally doesn't apply to classes under a certain size.  

Each individual school is incentivized to set their median as high as possible, of course, in order to give their graduates an edge on the job market.  What this ultimately means is that the curve tends to be set much lower at less-selective schools and higher at more-selective ones.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by JennyD

[matrips]

On 10/7/2022 at 9:01 AM, Bambam said:

Sorta off topic, but in case this is an issue for anyone else, this was the setup for one child's scholarship - 15 credit hours/semester. I asked if you could use incoming DC credits to cover that if you had to drop one class for whatever reason. I was assured this was completely acceptable.  There were steps you had to go through, but it was doable.

I’ll ask next week to make sure, but I’m pretty sure not.  This one scholarship is really strict.  You also lose it if you withdraw from a course after drop/add deadline and even if going from 18 to 15 credits.  No withdrawals at all.  So kids have to plan well when registering.  

[matrips]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:38 PM, regentrude said:

Entrance exams are not practical. 

Our very large state university requires a math placement exam.  I think you can be exempt with a certain AP class/score, but otherwise, 100% of incoming students have to take it and the results take priority over any transcript.

[BusyMom5]

18 minutes ago, matrips said:

I’ll ask next week to make sure, but I’m pretty sure not.  This one scholarship is really strict.  You also lose it if you withdraw from a course after drop/add deadline and even if going from 18 to 15 credits.  No withdrawals at all.  So kids have to plan well when registering.  

Maybe make rules for them regarding the amount of classes to take and how they are balanced.   Mine has never had to drop, but she took 17 and 19 hours her first 2 semesters and it starts well, then ends in a mad panic!

[matrips]

1 minute ago, BusyMom5 said:

Maybe make rules for them regarding the amount of classes to take and how they are balanced.   Mine has never had to drop, but she took 17 and 19 hours her first 2 semesters and it starts well, then ends in a mad panic!

The general recommendation seems to be to sign up for 18 credits, and drop one class by drop/add time once you see the professor/workload etc.  Keep the five classes that look to give you the best experience that semester.  Because you can’t drop down to 12, and if you get a really lousy professor or something, this allows you to get rid of that class and still have 15 credits.  Because it seems that many professors are TBD at registration time 😬

[BusyMom5]

I've been reading comments on this article all week from several online forums and the articles comments as well. I keep noticing trends in the comments.

1.  Parents do not like test scores determining if their kid gets into a college.  A large part if them are willing to pay high prices for college,  even if they can't afford it. "My kid is not a good test-taker" to explain a GPA of 4.0 and an ACT of under 20.  Tests cannot be gatekeepers.

2.  Teachers in high school say the opposite- kid isn't learning bc they don't put in effort and work.  ACT is more accurate reflection of ability than GPA bc teachers are being forced to pass everyone.   50% for MISSING  homework!  Grade inflation is running rampant due to laws, administration,  and dealing with the above parents.  Teachers feel like grade requirements are too low, kids choose not to learn.  

3.  Lots of comments on how schools hurt mental health from parents and students.   It hurts feelings to hold kids back, give bad grades, discipline, or basically do anything but pass everyone.  Deadlines for papers are unfair.

4.  College professors have no idea what to do with unprepared students.   Students are admitted without test scores, based on inflated GPA with unrealistic expectations for the way college classes are run.  No study skills, no self-discipline,  don't come to office hours, tutoring, writing lab, math lab, science lab help groups.   There seems to be a universal belief that students are less prepared than even 5-10 years ago.

5.  Dropping a class you struggle with doesn't seem like an option to students.  They often bring up mental health at an astounding rate, in hopes they can get extentions on assignments.  Professors wonder if this is real, or a result of not being able to differentiate between struggling with a difficult class or a real mental health issue.  College classes are 16-18 weeks long, do its not really possible to extend these deadlines.  Students get further behind.  Some are not allowed to encourage students to drop.  

6.  Teachers and professors blame cell phone usage and distraction over and over again.  Also lack of ability to prioritize.  They complain about having to compete with video games.  Parents rarely bring it up.  Student comments- never said anything about their cell phone usage.  

7.  Some teachers are jerks.  Some professors are jerks.  Some are bad teachers.  Some LMS and online resources are bad.  It CAN be the teacher!  

8.  All college degrees and classes are not equal.   Many people are perfectly happy with hard classes that weed out those without the stamina for these professions such as OChem for Drs, hard engineering classes, etc.  Expecting As in these classes is unrealistic.   

9.  College is often too expensive for students to take classes over again, hoping to pass.  If parents are customers, purchasing a degree for their student, they want to see good grades.  Quality isn't as important.

 

All of these things cannot exist together. 

Whose fault is it?  I don't know.  I see fault in many places:  laws, teachers, administration,  students, parents, professors, college admission officers who "sell" this experience.  

How do we fix it?  Its complicated and starts in HOMES, then continues in elementary schools and high schools.  Our entire society needs to redefine what a college degree should be, what it means, and what its purpose is.  I think some professional tracks (medical,  engineering) need different rules than, for example,  a general business degree.  Maybe some courses should be split into trimesters instead of semesters, so you can take OChem over fall, spring,  and summer.  Dropping Gen Eds is (IMO) a good idea for a lot of the harder degrees.  End of course exams for public schools would go a long ways to helping assure that students have learned these Gen Eds in high school.  

We have a really big country, and I can't help but feel that some if these issues have arose bc we tried to make a one-size fits all approach in elementary school.  I'm one of the few posters here who had big issues with Common Core and pulled my kids out of school bc it was so bad.  Over the last 15 years I have not changed my mind.   Schools need to meet their students where they are AT, not where THE SHOULD BE.  What I saw happening was any student who was on level or ahead was just ignored to help the lowest students.   The higher students are not challenged,  they don't learn study skills or resilience,  and they expect and easy A.  They also do not necessarily have the math or reading foundation they assume, bc their schools aren't providing it.  You end up with kids who could have been capable,  but they have ingrained such bad habits, professors don't know what to do with them.

I'm not the only one seeing this.  In the last month I've had 4 people contact me with regard to homeschooling.  These are not nutty-religous type homeschoolers.   They are parents who are appalled at what has happened to public education.   They want more for their kids.  

[Tanaqui]

Metafilter has a post with several more links on this story, and also a lot of fairly educated comments that manage to go in a wildly different direction from the comments here. I'm leaving this comment for people who want it, not because I want to get dragged into this conversation. I do not, in fact, want to get dragged into this conversation today. I just don't have the spoons.

https://www.metafilter.com/196768/gentle-but-firm-hand-to-the-students-and-those-who-pay-the-tuition-bills

[Bootsie]

9 hours ago, matrips said:

Our very large state university requires a math placement exam.  I think you can be exempt with a certain AP class/score, but otherwise, 100% of incoming students have to take it and the results take priority over any transcript.

A math placement exam can address problems for those who will be enrolling in math classes as far as what level course they are placed into.  But, it does little good for classes outside of the math department that require basic algebra skills when students do not have to take a class at the university because the have credit for courses through dual enrollment, AP classes, or work at a junior college.  So, a student who wants to be a marketing major and comes into the university with credit for the two required math classes for a marketing major can't do the math required for a business statistics or a finance course.  

If departments give placement exams for admitted students, it is only effective if they have enough faculty to cover all of the remedial classes that the placement exams indicate are needed.  Getting funding for faculty to teach remedial classes is an uphill battle. 

[Frances]

51 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

A math placement exam can address problems for those who will be enrolling in math classes as far as what level course they are placed into.  But, it does little good for classes outside of the math department that require basic algebra skills when students do not have to take a class at the university because the have credit for courses through dual enrollment, AP classes, or work at a junior college.  So, a student who wants to be a marketing major and comes into the university with credit for the two required math classes for a marketing major can't do the math required for a business statistics or a finance course.  

If departments give placement exams for admitted students, it is only effective if they have enough faculty to cover all of the remedial classes that the placement exams indicate are needed.  Getting funding for faculty to teach remedial classes is an uphill battle. 

At the private college one of my nieces attended for nursing, they had to pass a math competency test by the end of their first year, so as to be ready for higher level classes like statistics, pharmacology, etc. If they did not pass it, they had to go to a math lab and work on their skills until they did. I don’t know what computer program they used in the math lab, but there were always free tutors available in the lab for students needing help. Students who had to use to use the math lab in order to pass the test did not receive credit. It was just a program requirement.

Maybe instead of having students take entire remedial classes, something like this could be used more often. As a statistics grad student, I took many math classes for which I did not have all of the prerequisites, as I was not a math major in undergrad. But generally speaking, I only needed to master key portions of the prerequisites, as the same concepts and techniques were generally used over and over. At the time, I just did this self-study on my own.

[regentrude]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:41 PM, matrips said:

Our very large state university requires a math placement exam.  I think you can be exempt with a certain AP class/score, but otherwise, 100% of incoming students have to take it and the results take priority over any transcript.

Ours has those too, but that isn't quite the same as an *entrance * exam that determines whether a student is admitted.

A placement test only funnels already admitted students into remedial math classes at the college. It doesn't prevent students whose transcript misrepresents their college readiness from being admitted.

[Terabith]

When I went back to school to get my elementary certification, about six years ago, I was shocked at the level of math knowledge the students preparing to teach elementary school did (not) have.  A basic math skills test was required for certification, and it didn't require anything more than sixth or eighth grade math, and people COULD NOT pass it.  I think a lot of them wound up doing major league cramming or possibly doing some sort of alternative test?  I'm not even talking people who didn't have their multiplication facts memorized; I'm talking people who didn't understand what multiplication was, let alone fractions and decimals.  Order of operations and the distributive property were things they had never heard of and really, really could not understand.  These were adults who could never have worked through even a fifth grade Math Mammoth or Singapore math book, let alone Beast Academy.

And I don't expect elementary ed majors to be the best and brightest, let alone the most mathematically apt.  But I found myself deeply, deeply concerned about how these people were going to teach elementary and middle school kids math that they themselves did not remotely begin to understand, especially given that math textbooks aren't a thing.  But these were people who had not only gotten into college but were mostly juniors in college.  They weren't stupid; they were just completely and totally unprepared from the time they themselves were in elementary school.  

[Corraleno]

15 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Metafilter has a post with several more links on this story, and also a lot of fairly educated comments that manage to go in a wildly different direction from the comments here. I'm leaving this comment for people who want it, not because I want to get dragged into this conversation. I do not, in fact, want to get dragged into this conversation today. I just don't have the spoons.

https://www.metafilter.com/196768/gentle-but-firm-hand-to-the-students-and-those-who-pay-the-tuition-bills

Thanks for linking that, it included additional information that I think is very relevant — this class was Orgo 2, not 1, so these students already passed Orgo 1; the other profs who taught this class had ratings of 4-5 out of 5, only Jones was much lower; there were only 2 TAs for 475 students! The reactions were similar to my own, including this: "I blame the AMA for using undergraduate institutions to artificially limit the number of doctors."
 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Corraleno

[Frances]

24 minutes ago, Terabith said:

When I went back to school to get my elementary certification, about six years ago, I was shocked at the level of math knowledge the students preparing to teach elementary school did (not) have.  A basic math skills test was required for certification, and it didn't require anything more than sixth or eighth grade math, and people COULD NOT pass it.  I think a lot of them wound up doing major league cramming or possibly doing some sort of alternative test?  I'm not even talking people who didn't have their multiplication facts memorized; I'm talking people who didn't understand what multiplication was, let alone fractions and decimals.  Order of operations and the distributive property were things they had never heard of and really, really could not understand.  These were adults who could never have worked through even a fifth grade Math Mammoth or Singapore math book, let alone Beast Academy.

And I don't expect elementary ed majors to be the best and brightest, let alone the most mathematically apt.  But I found myself deeply, deeply concerned about how these people were going to teach elementary and middle school kids math that they themselves did not remotely begin to understand, especially given that math textbooks aren't a thing.  But these were people who had not only gotten into college but were mostly juniors in college.  They weren't stupid; they were just completely and totally unprepared from the time they themselves were in elementary school.  

That’s why we should have math teachers teaching math from elementary on, not starting in junior high.

[Frances]

45 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Thanks for linking that, it included additional information that I think is very relevant — this class was Orgo 2, not 1, so these students already passed Orgo 1; the other profs who taught this class had ratings of 4-5 out of 5, only Jones was much lower; there were only 2 TAs for 475 students! The reactions were similar to my own, including this: "I blame the AMA for using undergraduate institutions to artificially limit the number of doctors."
 

2 TAs for 475 students is absolutely nuts!?! My husband taught orgo for many years at a LAC without any TAs, just lab assistants, and it was widely recognized among science faculty that he had the heaviest teaching load because of it due to all of the extra help he provided students during extensive office hours and on a drop-in basis. At places he previously taught orgo as an adjunct that did use TAs, the ratio was more like one TA for every 25-30 students plus at least one lab assistant in each lab. One of the places he taught at even had someone who would set up and tear down any demonstrations he wanted to do during class.

When my son took honors orgo his freshman year of college, they had recitation sections capped at 25 and their labs had fewer than 10 students each. The recitation sections were led by a TA and the labs by a professor who also taught the lab lecture separately. I’m seriously shocked by only two recitation sections for a class of 475 at an expensive private university. What exactly are the students paying for?

As for orgo limiting the number of doctors we produce in the US, it wouldn’t matter if every student who took orgo got an A, we simply don’t provide enough medical school training slots and residency slots here in the US for US students.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Frances

[matrips]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

Ours has those too, but that isn't quite the same as an *entrance * exam that determines whether a student is admitted.

A placement test only funnels already admitted students into remedial math classes at the college. It doesn't prevent students whose transcript misrepresents their college readiness from being admitted.

True.  I wasn’t thinking about that.  Though if SATs are required, they do get some idea of whether the kids have at least basic math/English skills.  

[shawthorne44]

On 10/6/2022 at 4:41 PM, Heartstrings said:

You left on a cliffhanger, did they give him a contract the next year after all or still fire him for such dramatic improvement? 

 

Stories like this are the why the idea that "there are no under-performing schools, they are performing exactly as they are intended"  rings so true.  It's clearly possible for these kids to be better served.  Yet serving them better leads to punishments not rewards. 

Its really hard to not see that a big issue is that talented teachers don't line anyone's pocket.  If they kids are behind the school can spend several million on "new, improved' curriculum, training on that curriculum and testing, lots of expensive testing, to show how great the curriculum is, rinse and repeat year after year

Oh, sorry.   Since I've been a teacher too, so it hadn't occurred to me that anyone would think they changed course.     The principal stuck with that it was all her that caused the improvement, and DH was a problem teacher.   Bonus for the principal was that the test results would have returned to that school's normal, so it would have looked like her leaving was why.  


 

[vonfirmath]

19 hours ago, Frances said:

That’s why we should have math teachers teaching math from elementary on, not starting in junior high.

There are not enough math teachers. The schools are struggling to have enough math teachers to teach junior high and high school.

 

[shawthorne44]

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

There are not enough math teachers. The schools are struggling to have enough math teachers to teach junior high and high school.

 

What I saw was that there wasn't even understanding that there is a need.   Teachers will say with a smirk, "Well, I know how to do elementary-level math (or I won't admit that I don't) so I will be fine."
   
Nevermind that there is Reading Specialists yet presumably all the teachers know how to read.   

Really, though, the base problem is that Education degrees are a complete joke and one of the places that people that aren't capable of a rigorous college degree end up.   So you end up with teachers that have had the worst education.   Not saying that all teachers are idiots (I was one).   Some people have a calling to teach (I wasn't one of those).    But an unusually high % are idiots.  
 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

There are not enough math teachers. The schools are struggling to have enough math teachers to teach junior high and high school.

 

 

16 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

What I saw was that there wasn't even understanding that there is a need.   Teachers will say with a smirk, "Well, I know how to do elementary-level math (or I won't admit that I don't) so I will be fine."
   
 

There is a pay issue. Out of those k-8th school teachers I know who could teach math well, one is single and stayed with her parents, one is married and earn extra income being an adjunct lecturer at community colleges, one worked hard to be promoted as math coordinator for k-8 so that her pay is higher, one switched to the district office to be the math curriculum head because of pay, one is financially comfortable so her income is supplementary rather than essential. 

So the good ones that stayed ended up being those who either have a side hustle or a spouse with a nice income or single and living with parents. The one with the side hustle as an adjunct lecturer gave up and switched to being just an adjunct lecturer. My district actually pays very well for experienced teachers but entry level was around $50k for K-5th. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Arcadia
typo

[Dmmetler]

21 hours ago, Terabith said:

When I went back to school to get my elementary certification, about six years ago, I was shocked at the level of math knowledge the students preparing to teach elementary school did (not) have.  A basic math skills test was required for certification, and it didn't require anything more than sixth or eighth grade math, and people COULD NOT pass it.  I think a lot of them wound up doing major league cramming or possibly doing some sort of alternative test?  I'm not even talking people who didn't have their multiplication facts memorized; I'm talking people who didn't understand what multiplication was, let alone fractions and decimals.  Order of operations and the distributive property were things they had never heard of and really, really could not understand.  These were adults who could never have worked through even a fifth grade Math Mammoth or Singapore math book, let alone Beast Academy.

And I don't expect elementary ed majors to be the best and brightest, let alone the most mathematically apt.  But I found myself deeply, deeply concerned about how these people were going to teach elementary and middle school kids math that they themselves did not remotely begin to understand, especially given that math textbooks aren't a thing.  But these were people who had not only gotten into college but were mostly juniors in college.  They weren't stupid; they were just completely and totally unprepared from the time they themselves were in elementary school.  

The community college has a math for elementary teachers class that essentially IS working through K-6 Singapore math in two semesters using manipulatives, etc. It's explained as learning teaching techniques, but it also gives students who never had a chance to really learn the why behind basic math the chance to learn it. Kids who come in with really weak skills spend three hours a week on this in class, and an additional three hours a week in a support class getting more instruction. There are similar classes for Pre-Algebra/Algebra and Geometry, so it's a four semester sequence for those getting K-8th grade certification. 

 

I think it's a really good thing to have. Even those who did well in high school math have had a long time since they were 1st graders, and may not have had base 10 blocks, abacuses, and other manipulatives in their classrooms. It gives them a chance to learn how math is taught now. And for those who learned just by rote, or never really internalized it, it at least gives them a chance to learn it now. 

 

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

The community college has a math for elementary teachers class that essentially IS working through K-6 Singapore math in two semesters using manipulatives, etc. It's explained as learning teaching techniques, but it also gives students who never had a chance to really learn the why behind basic math the chance to learn it. Kids who come in with really weak skills spend three hours a week on this in class, and an additional three hours a week in a support class getting more instruction. There are similar classes for Pre-Algebra/Algebra and Geometry, so it's a four semester sequence for those getting K-8th grade certification. 

 

I think it's a really good thing to have. Even those who did well in high school math have had a long time since they were 1st graders, and may not have had base 10 blocks, abacuses, and other manipulatives in their classrooms. It gives them a chance to learn how math is taught now. And for those who learned just by rote, or never really internalized it, it at least gives them a chance to learn it now. 

 

That sounds amazing.  I think a lot of my fellow students would have really benefited from that.  
 

 

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

 

There is a pay issue. Out of those k-8th school teachers I know who could teach math well, one is single and stayed with her parents, one is married and earn extra income being an adjunct lecturer at community colleges, one worked hard to be promoted as math coordinator for k-8 so that her pay is higher, one switched to the district office to be the math curriculum head because of pay, one is financially comfortable so her income is supplementary rather than essential. 

So the good ones that stayed ended up being those who either have a side hustle or a spouse with a nice income or single and living with parents. The one with the side hustle as an adjunct lecturer gave up and switched to being just an adjunct lecturer. My district actually pays very well for experienced teachers but entry level was around $50k for K-5th. 

Pay is a big part of the issue in attracting intelligent teachers, but I think the biggest problem is the lack of respect and autonomy.  Teachers aren’t trusted to do their jobs.  They are micromanaged and told to use this or that program, that changes every few years and is usually terrible, and they have no say about what they do.  They’re criticized by the public and micromanaged by principals.  They aren’t given resources that they need.  They’re told how much recess they can allow and whether or not they can assign homework.  It’s the lack of respect and autonomy that’s driving people out of education.  

[Dmmetler]

12 minutes ago, Terabith said:

That sounds amazing.  I think a lot of my fellow students would have really benefited from that.  
 

 

Pay is a big part of the issue in attracting intelligent teachers, but I think the biggest problem is the lack of respect and autonomy.  Teachers aren’t trusted to do their jobs.  They are micromanaged and told to use this or that program, that changes every few years and is usually terrible, and they have no say about what they do.  They’re criticized by the public and micromanaged by principals.  They aren’t given resources that they need.  They’re told how much recess they can allow and whether or not they can assign homework.  It’s the lack of respect and autonomy that’s driving people out of education.  

The latter is the reason why I'm not going back to public schools unless I'm financially forced to. The fact is, I'd make more and have a work schedule that more closely matches DH's in the schools compared to what I have at the community center...but I have autonomy and respect at the community center. And that is worth a lot. 

 

 

[BusyMom5]

12 minutes ago, Terabith said:

That sounds amazing.  I think a lot of my fellow students would have really benefited from that.  
 

 

Pay is a big part of the issue in attracting intelligent teachers, but I think the biggest problem is the lack of respect and autonomy.  Teachers aren’t trusted to do their jobs.  They are micromanaged and told to use this or that program, that changes every few years and is usually terrible, and they have no say about what they do.  They’re criticized by the public and micromanaged by principals.  They aren’t given resources that they need.  They’re told how much recess they can allow and whether or not they can assign homework.  It’s the lack of respect and autonomy that’s driving people out of education.  

All true.  As homeschoolers,  most of us have experience what happens when a curriculum doesn't fit a child's learning style.  We slow down or speed up, skip sections, add in extra movies and games, focus on skills that are weaker- whatever we need to do.  Classroom teachers are not given this choice.  Its one-size fits all- but it often doesn't fit anyone!  I wanted to be a teacher when I was in college- so glad I never finished!  Its sad what has happened,  but I don't want my own kids to suffer.  

[Terabith]

12 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The latter is the reason why I'm not going back to public schools unless I'm financially forced to. The fact is, I'd make more and have a work schedule that more closely matches DH's in the schools compared to what I have at the community center...but I have autonomy and respect at the community center. And that is worth a lot. 

 

 

Yup.  I got my certification, and I'm glad to have it in case of emergency, but honestly, I have zero interest in teaching in public schools at this juncture.  I'm teaching preschool, where I have autonomy, can teach the lessons my kids are developmentally ready for, and can change when things aren't working.  

[shawthorne44]

On 10/10/2022 at 11:56 AM, Arcadia said:

So the good ones that stayed ended up being those who either have a side hustle or a spouse with a nice income or single and living with parents. The one with the side hustle as an adjunct lecturer gave up and switched to being just an adjunct lecturer. My district actually pays very well for experienced teachers but entry level was around $50k for K-5th. 

 

Entry-level of 50K is very much a living wage.   Here are some entry level salaries by state.   

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Entry-Level-Salary-by-State

 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

Entry-level of 50K is very much a living wage.   Here are some entry level salaries by state.   

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Entry-Level-Salary-by-State

 

California’s entry level wage is $32,868 by your link. Also $50k was for people with no experience when my kids were elementary school age. My district also provides subsidized housing to teachers. 
Below is the current salary scale and the lowest pay is $81,047

 

[shawthorne44]

Arcadia, so you are saying that they are paid a reasonable amount.  

[EKS]

I love the way people think that teachers work 188 days per year.  What a joke.  My mother was a middle school science teacher and she worked at least six days per week during the school year as well as most of the summer.

Edited October 12, 2022 by EKS

[Arcadia]

36 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

Arcadia, so you are saying that they are paid a reasonable amount.  

No. I am saying that the starting pay isn’t attractive if you have rent/mortgage to pay and/or kids to feed for my local area.  

[shawthorne44]

22 hours ago, Arcadia said:

No. I am saying that the starting pay isn’t attractive if you have rent/mortgage to pay and/or kids to feed for my local area.  

But, it is about 3X the average entry-level salary in CA.    What about the people starting out at 32K?  

 

[Frances]

23 hours ago, EKS said:

I love the way people think that teachers work 188 days per year.  What a joke.  My mother was a middle school science teacher and she worked at least six days per week during the school year as well as most of the summer.

I think this varies drastically though and therein lies the rub. I think both extremes exist and everything in the middle. I’ve personally known people at both extremes. My FIL taught middle school social studies for over 40 years. He definitely worked more than 40 hours during the week, but during the summer he was working a different job to provide for his family. Since teachers in my state must eventually have a master’s degree, many spend the summer doing that early in their career. I’ve also known teachers who flat out say they will never, on principle, work beyond any contracted hours.

[klmama]

Frances is right; it really does vary.  I used to work at least 60 hours per week during the school year and spent four weeks before school started getting ready for the next year.  Conversely, I've known many teachers who do the bare minimum required.  Perhaps most are in the middle?  It's hard to say.  

[Murphy101]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:41 PM, matrips said:

Our very large state university requires a math placement exam.  I think you can be exempt with a certain AP class/score, but otherwise, 100% of incoming students have to take it and the results take priority over any transcript.

That’s what the community colleges do here. Either an ACT/Sat or a placement exam for every student. Trade schools also require an entrance literacy/math exam.  A bad score won’t keep you out of either one, but it will require you to take remedial courses so you can pass the program. 

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

On 10/12/2022 at 8:36 AM, Arcadia said:

No. I am saying that the starting pay isn’t attractive if you have rent/mortgage to pay and/or kids to feed for my local area.  

But, it is about 3X the average entry-level salary in CA.    What about the people starting out at 32K?  

Well CA does have a range of cost of living, but also housing prices (especially the area Arcadia is talking about) far exceeds salaries paid. What they might do includes homelessness, living multiple families to a house, living in multi-generation homes, lucky people get inherited homes (bonus if they get to inherit the property tax too), etc?

[Alice]

On 10/9/2022 at 3:13 PM, Corraleno said:

The reactions were similar to my own, including this: "I blame the AMA for using undergraduate institutions to artificially limit the number of doctors."
 

I haven't totally read all the articles and this is a bit of an aside but one thought I've had during this whole discussion is how messed up the medical education system is in this country....and really how it starts by "weeding out" in these kinds of classes. I was a Chem/Bio major. I LOVED organic chemistry, it was one of my favorite classes and I did very well in it. I am also a pediatrician and I will tell you 100% that Organic Chemistry in no way made me a better doctor...other than just the idea that education in general makes you a better person.

I didn't even really need Organic Chemistry for Med School. There were some things that were more clear but you could easily have an intro Med School class that is something like Chemistry for Med School that covers the Chem/Organic Chem/Biochem that you actually need to know. 

Again....I liked Organic Chem and am super glad I took it. But I don't think it makes me a better doctor or even somehow measures my intelligence more than if someone majored in something like Philosophy/Ethics and then went on to take some kind of basic Chem class. I think part of the problem with med school is that we set it up that there are all these hoops you have to jump through to get there...one being Organic Chemistry. So then you have a class like Organic that is very tough and full of people who really have no interest in it other than it being a hoop. Or there are people who are interested in medicine but don't even go that way because it's an obstacle that they don't think they can get past (if I had a nickel for everyone who says t  me that they thought about medicine but didn't "because of all the science" than I'd have paid off my med school loans much sooner. :))

 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

But, it is about 3X the average entry-level salary in CA.    What about the people starting out at 32K?  

 

Cost of living varies in California. I am living in the San Jose metro area, informally known as Silicon Valley. My friends’ college age kids works part time at above $18/hr, full time during summer. Many retail staff aren’t sole breadwinners. Some of the staff we are familiar with at Target and Nordstrom Rack are community college students who are earning pocket money, they are living with their parents and someone (parents, financial aid) is footing the bill for tuition and books.  

17 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Well CA does have a range of cost of living, but also housing prices (especially the area Arcadia is talking about) far exceeds salaries paid. 

That was what I meant. For my area, we have lived on less than $80k and one pay check every month went to rent. However, that pay also put us above qualifying at that time for subsidized rental or WIC or any help at all. 

[Arcadia]

10 minutes ago, Alice said:

 

I didn't even really need Organic Chemistry for Med School.

. I think part of the problem with med school is that we set it up that there are all these hoops you have to jump through to get there...one being Organic Chemistry. So then you have a class like Organic that is very tough and full of people who really have no interest in it other than it being a hoop.

My friend took the Cambridge A levels exams decades ago and then went to Cork, Ireland for her MBBS. She did her pediatric housemanship in US and is still working here.

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, Alice said:

I haven't totally read all the articles and this is a bit of an aside but one thought I've had during this whole discussion is how messed up the medical education system is in this country....and really how it starts by "weeding out" in these kinds of classes. I was a Chem/Bio major. I LOVED organic chemistry, it was one of my favorite classes and I did very well in it. I am also a pediatrician and I will tell you 100% that Organic Chemistry in no way made me a better doctor...other than just the idea that education in general makes you a better person.

I didn't even really need Organic Chemistry for Med School. There were some things that were more clear but you could easily have an intro Med School class that is something like Chemistry for Med School that covers the Chem/Organic Chem/Biochem that you actually need to know. 

Again....I liked Organic Chem and am super glad I took it. But I don't think it makes me a better doctor or even somehow measures my intelligence more than if someone majored in something like Philosophy/Ethics and then went on to take some kind of basic Chem class. I think part of the problem with med school is that we set it up that there are all these hoops you have to jump through to get there...one being Organic Chemistry. So then you have a class like Organic that is very tough and full of people who really have no interest in it other than it being a hoop. Or there are people who are interested in medicine but don't even go that way because it's an obstacle that they don't think they can get past (if I had a nickel for everyone who says t  me that they thought about medicine but didn't "because of all the science" than I'd have paid off my med school loans much sooner. :))

 

It does seem like an odd barrier. For comparison, medicine is an undergraduate degree in the UK. Entrance would be similar to the below for US applicants,  with the addition of lots of targeted volunteer experience. I don't see Organic Chemistry as a standalone module within the medicine course.

 

[shawthorne44]

I guess I just find it odd to expect that an entry-level salary should be enough for a mortgage.  Engineer is genuinely held up as a good paying job.  I remember my cousin took a pay-cut for his first post-college job as an Engineer with the Corps of Engineers.  His previous job was at a grocery store.   I remember being an entry-level engineer.   I had a roommate, lived a decent commute away in a cheaper area and it was 8 months before I could afford to get the AC fixed on my old car.  That was in Texas.