What does forgiving someone mean, to you?

[Drama Llama]

DH and I had some difficult conversations with our teenager today.  Everyone's struggling, and I'm wondering if we're all using this word differently.  So, I'm curious how others define it. 

[kristin0713]

I have heard it said that it is letting go of your “right” to hurt them back. It’s not saying it’s ok, because usually it’s not ok. It’s also not necessarily trusting them again. But it is moving on. 

[maize]

In a religious sense, I use it to mean laying judgment of the other person at the Lord's feet; it's not my role to judge or condemn.

What this doesn't mean is pretending harm never happened if the person is in a position to and liable to re-offend. Establishing healthy boundaries is a separate things from forgiving or not forgiving. 

Sometimes it is also important to acknowledge that hurt and grief may endure in spite of genuine forgiveness towards the person who was the source of the hurt. God may have the power to eventually heal our wounds, but we mortals do not.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

DH and I had some difficult conversations with our teenager today.  Everyone's struggling, and I'm wondering if we're all using this word differently.  So, I'm curious how others define it. 

I think I have seen this topic discussed on the boards 100 times over the years. Some people think forgiveness has nothing to do with the offender.   That it is more letting go for one’s own peace. Not me. 

Here is my belief.  I can’t forgive someone who has not admitted the wrong, shown in some manner they are sorry for the wrong and taken definitive steps to not repeat it.  If those things are done then I am required (by my religious beliefs) to forgive them. To cancel the debt. Depending on the offense and the person I may or may not choose to continue a relationship with this person.

If the offender does not take the steps above my forgiveness is not required. However this is where letting go of something….whether you continue the relationship in some manner or not….comes in.  Letting go is for your own sanity and peace.

[Ann.without.an.e]

You don't hold an offense against someone, especially if they've apologized and asked for forgiveness. You let it go and chalk it up to the fact that we're all human and as a consequence of being human we all make mistakes and hurt one another. 

That being said, if someone has a pattern of hurting you, has no remorse, and doesn't seem to think that change is necessary then you can not hold a grudge that tears us apart but choose not to have a relationship with them. You can let them know that their actions are hurting you and that you would be willing to try a relationship in the future after they seek counseling or change. We can see that a place is dangerous for us emotionally, physically, spiritually, and/or mentally and choose not to burn the place to the ground. We can make peace with that place, but also choose not to live there. 

I agree with @Scarlett that if someone sees their offense and asks forgiveness then I am to forgive them. In my experience, the sort of people who hurt you deeply again and again rarely see their wrongdoing and never admit that they're hurting you so they don't seek your forgiveness. I have had several people hurt me deeply but never seek forgiveness. The people who seem to seek forgiveness genuinely care and want a good relationship, they may just need growth or even input from me on how that relationship can function. 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Scarlett]

When I was posting a lot on a marriage board we often saw this type of first post.

”please help.  My husband is having an affair with his co worker.  He is not sure what he wants to do.  I have already forgiven him.  I need help getting him to stop seeing her.”

HOW can you forgive someone who is continuing the offense? !

Edited July 21, 2022 by Scarlett

[Guest]

To me it means not counting the mistake/hurt against the person in future. You won’t be ready to dredge up the issue again in another situation; you won’t throw it back in their face and point out these ways they have fallen short before. 
 

Admittedly though, I am not a great forgiver, at least, not for malicious things. If you just made a mistake/forgot something/didn’t realize, it is easier for me to forgive than if you just flagrantly did something hurtful maliciously. 

[fraidycat]

To me it means letting go;

Of the need to hear an apology

Of the need for the other party to understand my POV

Of the desire to see the other party "harmed" in return (karma)

To me forgiveness is for myself, not for the other person(s). It allows me to leave the past in the past and move forward without the weight of the pain of whatever happened dragging along with me.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

To me it means not counting the mistake/hurt against the person in future. You won’t be ready to dredge up the issue again in another situation; you won’t throw it back in their face and point out these ways they have fallen short before. 
 

Admittedly though, I am not a great forgiver, at least, not for malicious things. If you just made a mistake/forgot something/didn’t realize, it is easier for me to forgive than if you just flagrantly did something hurtful maliciously. 

I saw a meme the other day that said, ‘I hate when I get so mad I can’t get over it for 2 years’.  Lol….it’s funny because it is true with me…it really takes A LOT to get me to that point, but I lose my mind once the line is crossed. Usually has to do something that is done to my loved ones.  

[Drama Llama]

17 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

 

Of the need for the other party to understand my POV

 

This is hard for him, I think. For me too, to be honest.

[Jaybee]

Not exactly an answer to your question, but a thought related to it. One of the problems with forgiveness, etc., is that trust has been broken. So does forgiveness mean that you immediately give that trust back to the offender? I'm not sure that is wise. So if not, what does forgiveness mean in that situation? (See above suggestions.) The offender may need to do the hard work of regaining trust. That takes time. Lots of it. 

[fairfarmhand]

Just now, Jaybee said:

Not exactly an answer to your question, but a thought related to it. One of the problems with forgiveness, etc., is that trust has been broken. So does forgiveness mean that you immediately give that trust back to the offender? I'm not sure that is wise. So if not, what does forgiveness mean in that situation? (See above suggestions.) The offender may need to do the hard work of regaining trust. That takes time. Lots of it. 

Nope. Trust takes time to rebuild. It’s not something you can isntantly snap your fingers and make happen. For this reason in my head forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same. Even with an apology trust takes time.

forgiveness is letting it go. Not harboring hard feelings. When the offense/person pops up, I think, “that happened. It hurt me, but I will not focus on that.”

Reconciliation takes time as well as the relationship must be kind of reconfigured.

[Jaybee]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

Nope. Trust takes time to rebuild. It’s not something you can isntantly snap your fingers and make happen. For this reason in my head forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same. Even with an apology trust takes time.

forgiveness is letting it go. Not harboring hard feelings. When the offense/person pops up, I think, “that happened. It hurt me, but I will not focus on that.”

Reconciliation takes time as well as the relationship must be kind of reconfigured.

Yeah, my questions were more rhetorical. 

[Terabith]

Don't try to get revenge.  Allow them the opportunity to show they've changed, if that's safe and appropriate.  

[Clarita]

25 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

To me it means letting go;

Of the need to hear an apology

Of the need for the other party to understand my POV

Of the desire to see the other party "harmed" in return (karma)

To me forgiveness is for myself, not for the other person(s). It allows me to leave the past in the past and move forward without the weight of the pain of whatever happened dragging along with me.

This is what it means to me. I don't forget what the person did to me. I make my decision of how I handle people based on the entirety of their history with me. I don't hold a grudge, but I'm not going to continue to give the offender opportunities to hurt me. If they really begin to make positive steps to regain my trust then I also adjust my vulnerability accordingly (although I have to say it is rare that it happens). 

[Drama Llama]

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

[maize]

27 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

Yes.

It looks like letting go of a desire on my part to make them pay somehow for what they have done that hurt me.

While maintaining whatever degree of personal boundaries and protections I feel are necessary.

It isn't easy. If new hurts happen, the pain of past hurts does come flooding back in. And if the person is close, say an immediate family member, it is hard to maintain a heart that is soft enough and open enough to love the person and maintain whatever relationship can be maintained while simultaneously maintaining some degree of protections.

It feels like walking a perilous path all too close to quicksand.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

Yes.

It looks like letting go of a desire on my part to make them pay somehow for what they have done that hurt me.

While maintaining whatever degree of personal boundaries and protections I feel are necessary.

It isn't easy. If new hurts happen, the pain of past hurts does come flooding back in. And if the person is close, say an immediate family member, it is hard to maintain a heart that is soft enough and open enough to love the person and maintain whatever relationship can be maintained while simultaneously maintaining some degree of protections.

It feels like walking a perilous path all too close to quicksand.

That seems like a lot to ask a teenager to do.  

[Rosie_0801]

50 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

Apathy and lowered standards, I think.

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

That seems like a lot to ask a teenager to do.  

I really think it depends. Is it the teen expected to forgive or the adult. It depends on how trust was broken. The degree of what happened, the likely hood of it happening again, etc.

A teen doing something stupid like a teen with a teen brain do, it may be easier to forgive than an adult doing something, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you will ever have full trust in the person again. 

I really think it takes a teen a lot longer to forgive and build up trust again. For an adult, they have more lived experiances. A teen tends to have more trust in an adult, and the breach in trust may be magnified 

I don't believe people should be forced into forgiveness. It is something  that has to come from within. 

[Melissa in Australia]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

It is degrees of trust. 

[Slache]

4 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

I love what Dr. Ramani says about radical acceptance. They are who they are. Expect them to act like who they are. Is that good enough for you? So, what it looks like is an acceptance of who they are, and adjusting your expectations accordingly.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

I personally (for myself) think the answer is no. I could decide not to continually rehash the offense but trust takes time to rebuild and I’m not going to expose myself again with that person for a long time or maybe ever. 
 

[Katy]

6 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

To me forgiveness is accepting what happened and letting go of the need for the past to be different. The rage and pain and injustice are let go and accepted WITHOUT condoning the bad thing that happened.  It doesn’t mean trusting them. They’ve shown you who they are. That will likely never change.

Someone denying their responsibility to try and force things to go back to the way they were before is gaslighting. The guilty party gets things back the way they were before when they change the past and do the right thing. Oh, that’s impossible? So is acting like actions don’t have consequences.

Hatred and anger and resentment can be let go of. Rebuilding trust will probably take making right choices twice as long as the person was being hurt. If not forever. Some violated boundaries can never be rebuilt.

[Carrie12345]

Both words, “forgive” and “trust”, are confusing to me, too.

I think of forgiveness as something that is more relevant to mistakes. If someone were to hit my car because they were distracted looking for a street sign, that seems to me like an easy thing to forgive. If they hit my car because they were driving drunk? Absolutely not.  I don’t know how to wrap my brain around the concept of “I forgive you for choosing a terrible thing that can kill people.”

I’ve debated the concept of trust with a therapist. I’ve concluded that most people, at least after a breaking of trust, really mean hope.  If I know what you’re capable of, I can’t just erase it from my brain.  If you say you won’t do it again, I might choose to live as though you won’t and hope that you won’t, but I’m very aware that you CAN and that I’m taking on that risk.

[LauraClark]

I agree with @Scarlett: from a biblical perspective forgiveness is the healing of a relationship that only happens when the offender apologizes. If that doesn't happen we aren't to allow our pain to turn into hatred, though. The way we do that looks like a lot of prayer and then a lot more prayer when we think we've let it go and then a lot more prayer again.  

However, I don't think our society thinks of the word forgiveness necessarily in terms of relationship healing. It's more letting it go and choosing to not hate. It's kind of like our society uses "forgiveness" whether the person apologizes or not, but to me those are two totally different scenarios and I can't use the same word for both things.

[freesia]

For me forgiveness is about me moving on and not sitting in the anger. In one situation in my life it is active and I need to revisit letting go periodically. 
 

However, that is separate from healing myself or a relationship. The relationship can’t be healed unless there is the repentance @Scarlett talked about. There can be no reconciliation without that. And even then healing from wounds takes time, building new trust takes time—and by this I mean possibly years of changed behavior. There are consequences for the things we do, even if we are sick when they happen. Adults have more maturity than teens and can often understand how illness plays into behavior. Teens, particularly if the offense is perpetrated multiple times by someone they are dependent on, will not have that same perspective. While healing can begin, I would expect trust to take years to rebuild. I would expect forgiveness to happen when the teen felt safer. I would not be encouraging a teen toward forgiveness particularly when the person they may be struggling with is present. I would encourage them toward healing.  If a grudge is held for multiple years, after a change has happened, then I would address forgiveness with them. 
 

You are right to explore whether definitions are different. I think the definition of forgiveness does mean different things to different people. I certainly feel different about it since we went through something a few years ago. Like Scarlett, without true repentance, I can’t move on and let go or be neutral about that person. They continue to lie about what happened and “not understand.”  But I have had to learn to heal myself in order not to be poisoned by my righteous anger. I thought I was done with that and had moved on, but something my bff said brought the anger up again this week. If she had said anything about forgiveness at that moment, it would not have helped. She knows I have been actively working on healing and forgiveness—for 5 years. So, yes, explore definitions, but realize there is no way to quickly make anyone forgive a big offense no matter what the definition is. 

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

I believe so.  In my experience yes. I think an offender can be truly remorseful and ask for forgiveness.  In which case I personally could begin the process of forgiveness.  Maybe that is key…..it is a process. Sometimes a person’s own demons make it exceedingly difficult for them to truly not repeat the offense and it has little to do with the innocent party.  But that leads to lack of  trust.  

I do think a lot of people use forgiveness and trust interchangeably.  So it is good to get  to the bottom of definitions.  
 

Also teens can hold a grudge especially when it comes to their parents.  

[Scarlett]

28 minutes ago, freesia said:

For me forgiveness is about me moving on and not sitting in the anger. In one situation in my life it is active and I need to revisit letting go periodically. 
 

However, that is separate from healing myself or a relationship. The relationship can’t be healed unless there is the repentance @Scarlett talked about. There can be no reconciliation without that. And even then healing from wounds takes time, building new trust takes time—and by this I mean possibly years of changed behavior. There are consequences for the things we do, even if we are sick when they happen. Adults have more maturity than teens and can often understand how illness plays into behavior. Teens, particularly if the offense is perpetrated multiple times by someone they are dependent on, will not have that same perspective. While healing can begin, I would expect trust to take years to rebuild. I would expect forgiveness to happen when the teen felt safer. I would not be encouraging a teen toward forgiveness particularly when the person they may be struggling with is present. I would encourage them toward healing.  If a grudge is held for multiple years, after a change has happened, then I would address forgiveness with them. 
 

You are right to explore whether definitions are different. I think the definition of forgiveness does mean different things to different people. I certainly feel different about it since we went through something a few years ago. Like Scarlett, without true repentance, I can’t move on and let go or be neutral about that person. They continue to lie about what happened and “not understand.”  But I have had to learn to heal myself in order not to be poisoned by my righteous anger. I thought I was done with that and had moved on, but something my bff said brought the anger up again this week. If she had said anything about forgiveness at that moment, it would not have helped. She knows I have been actively working on healing and forgiveness—for 5 years. So, yes, explore definitions, but realize there is no way to quickly make anyone forgive a big offense no matter what the definition is. 

I have been in a similar situation for over 3 years.  And I had to laugh at ‘my righteous anger’.  Yep.  I have a lot of that.  And I have wept and yelled and screamed until I don’t know how my friends tolerate me.   I have received sooooo much wonderful,  helpful, empathetic counsel from my friends and my step sister.  One thing my step sister told me is that ‘they are likely never going to see their role due to their own imperfections’.   So if they don’t see it can I really still be righteously angry at them?  Apparently I can.  Lol.  

So if I am having this much trouble as a 57 year old we should no be surprised that a teen struggles.  

I think when discussing this with a teen (not with the offfender present) it is good to stress respect and kindness over forgiveness or trust.  One thing I told my young teen son about his dad was that he did not have to trust him, or even like him or even want to spend a lot of of his time with him but he did need to be kind and respect his father as a flawed human being just like he himself is.  
 

[Scarlett]

50 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

I agree with @Scarlett: from a biblical perspective forgiveness is the healing of a relationship that only happens when the offender apologizes. If that doesn't happen we aren't to allow our pain to turn into hatred, though. The way we do that looks like a lot of prayer and then a lot more prayer when we think we've let it go and then a lot more prayer again.  

However, I don't think our society thinks of the word forgiveness necessarily in terms of relationship healing. It's more letting it go and choosing to not hate. It's kind of like our society uses "forgiveness" whether the person apologizes or not, but to me those are two totally different scenarios and I can't use the same word for both things.

Also an apology can mean different things depending on the situation.  I don’t think a verbal apology is always necessary for small offenses,  and yet for big repeated offenses a verbal apology can ring hollow.  When my XH blew up our 26 year marriage he said he was sorry.  But it sure did not seem sincere when he continued his adulterous relationship.  I told him, ‘I will know when you are really sorry and this isn’t it.’  3 years later after our divorce was final and I was remarried his world came crashing down and he truly was sorry.  When he expressed his horror at what he had done to our son and to me I told him, ‘remember when I told you I would know true remorse? This is it.’  And then I was able to begin the process of forgiving him.  The process of letting it go had already started.  And trust ?  I will never trust him completely but he is out of my life and I don’t really need to.  
 

All that to say @Baseballandhockey this is a complex issue depending on the relationship and the offense.  

[Scarlett]

Also demanding forgiveness is highly unlikely to be effective.  

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Also demanding forgiveness is highly unlikely to be effective.  

Yep. 
forgiveness is a personal choice. And a teen can choose to not forgive. 
one hallmark of a truly repentant person is that they can give the wounded person space to process the pain and accept the new relationship. (For major woundings, there’s has to be a new one)

Nothing will ever be the same and trying to recreate the past is going to be an exercise in frustration. But parties have to acknowledge this before anyone can move on.

[Faith-manor]

7 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

You can choose to do so especially if you can understand their problems and have some empathy. That does not means the person will ever be trusted again. Forgiveness means letting go of the stress of constantly replaying the wrongs in order to move forward. It is NOT for waving accountability for the one who has been so hurtful. There is nothing wrong with the one who has been wronged/abused setting a strict boundary going forward that makes them feel safe continuing the relationship. Forgiveness does not mean the waiving of consequences. It is like the difference between prison and probation. Forgiveness may mean that person in your life gets probation. The terms of the release from prison has restrictions because trust must be earned.

The thing is, NO ONE should even be thinking of demanding forgiveness from a child or teen. To forgive, the person has to be capable of nuanced thinking, emotional control, and have a measure also of feeling fairly safe that they do not have to allow this behavior to hurt them again or can sever the relationship if they feel that is for the best for them. Not only are frontal lobes not fully developed until about 21ish, minors also have no control of their lives, no real ability to make choices that are healthy for them. Relationships are pretty much by force, at the will of the adults in control of their lives, and deep down, that is frightening to them. If his father is trying to extract forgiveness and trust again from his minor son that is an act of abuse. He is asking from his son something only a mature adult can provide in a circumstance in which his son has no choice of how to handle this relationship in order to protect his own heart, his mental health. He has no ability to express himself freely even if you or your husband says he does because at the end of the day, he knows henis not the one making decisions about his life and may fear punishment or retribution for not feeling the same way about the situation that the adults think he should, all of the boundaries or lack thereof are set by others.

So I will say this. If your dh is trying to get forgiveness from his teen son, he is being abusive. That is 100% wrong. Adults have no right to ask children to do something their brains literally aren't capable of in situations in which the adults hold all the cards, and the kid is pretty much helpless. If dh wants forgiveness, he needs to work his butt off to show he is working hard at getting better. Then when ds is an adult and has had some time to mature and be in control of his own life, think critically about where his own relationship comfort level is a forgiveness discussion can go forward.

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yep. 
forgiveness is a personal choice. And a teen can choose to not forgive. 
one hallmark of a truly repentant person is that they can give the wounded person space to process the pain and accept the new relationship. (For major woundings, there’s has to be a new one)

Nothing will ever be the same and trying to recreate the past is going to be an exercise in frustration. But parties have to acknowledge this before anyone can move on.

This bears repeating.  Building a new relationship is very scary.  I am currently attempting it with several,people and believe me it is a very slow process. 

[Katy]

I think with a teen in particular they will never be able to fully forgive a parent who violated their trust and/or safety until they’ve been given plenty of time and room to fully express their anger, hatred, and feelings of being violated or betrayed. If the parent cannot give them room to be the wronged child again they will likely never be trusted. Because good parents let kids be honest kids, they don’t force them to walk on eggshells or put on a happy face or lie due to abusive religious blackmail. 

I’m not speaking specifically to OP’s family. I’m ruminating about the kids who have been in our home. They will frequently test us by raging too. It’s like they want to show us their absolute worst before they decide whether we’re worthy of any trust at all. 

[HomeAgain]

I think it's a hard question.

Forgiveness, to me, is letting go of the anger.  A real apology helps me do that and feel the sadness.  I ALSO don't have to continue to trust that person or put myself in a position that relies on that person in an emotional or physical way.  I just don't.  I may have let go of the anger, but I'm not going to invite it back.  There is no magic that will make that happen without a lot of work from the person who caused the issue to begin with, and there's no guarantee that the work will produce the effect they want.

 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, HomeAgain said:

I ALSO don't have to continue to trust that person or put myself in a position that relies on that person in an emotional or physical way. 

 

In a parent-child relationship that's complicated.

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 

Nm

Edited July 21, 2022 by Faith-manor

[HomeAgain]

2 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

In a parent-child relationship that's complicated.

It is, but the child can and often does choose polite distance.  They will become guarded, they will limit their interactions that are within their control.  They will not share or invest themselves emotionally.  Essentially, they will grey rock their parent rather than engage.  This will lead to them walking away as soon as they are physically able because they are not interested in potential future toxicity.

It's complicated, but there are options a child will exercise when they no longer feel like an emotional bond is worth pursuing. 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

Which is why no minor should EVER be put into the position of being expected to trust or offer forgiveness to an abusive parent. By nature, the parent child relationship prior to the children reaching adulthood is coercive. So really want your husband is doing is just victimizing his son yet again. It is totally inappropriate for him to be expecting anything from his child at this time. Ds needs space, time, emotional and physical safety, frontal lobe maturity, and the ability to make his own decisions and set his own boundaries without parental coercion BEFORE any measure of forgiveness or trust can be discussed.

I haven't said what my husband is doing.  

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I haven't said what my husband is doing.  

Okay sorry. I guess I inferred from the post that he expected forgiveness from his teen. I will delete my comment.

[Lecka]

This is from counseling.

A parent needs to take steps to heal the relationship, look for ways to connect, over a long period of time.  Not get mad or give up when it’s not going the way the parent wants on the parent’s timeline.

I think a counselor can help a lot with helping a parent to see the child’s side, and giving advice and encouragement to the parent.  
 

If there is a strong foundation it will be different than if there wasn’t one before the current issue.  
 

If the current issue is based on there not being a strong foundation — it becomes needing to build the foundation.  
 

I think a counselor can make that into concrete steps to take.  
 

Ymmv, it’s been what we have heard in counseling.  
 

And the counselor identified relationship as a key issue — he might identify something else for somebody else who went in.  

Edited July 21, 2022 by Lecka

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Lecka said:

This is from counseling.

A parent needs to take steps to heal the relationship, look for ways to connect, over a long period of time.  Not get mad or give up when it’s not going the way the parent wants on the parent’s timeline.

I think a counselor can help a lot with helping a parent to see the child’s side, and giving advice and encouragement to the parent.  
 

If there is a strong foundation it will be different than if there wasn’t one before the current issue.  
 

If the current issue is based on there not being a strong foundation — it becomes needing to build the foundation.  

What did building the foundation look like?

 

[elegantlion]

9 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Can you forgive someone if you don't trust them?  What does that look like?

I did this with my ex-dh. For me, it was all a process. He lost my trust, so it was easier when I didn't have to worry about that part anymore - after the divorce. Forgiveness was a process. There are some things I never forgave him for, things that still bother me. He is now deceased, so it's not like we can talk about them or work through them. There are other things that I forgave because "I" needed to. As noted above, I was able to reframe my expectataions from him. I expected him to act in a certain way in certain circumstances just because that is who he was. 

My ds was a teenager when we separated. He's now 24 and his dad passed away about 3 years ago. When we separated, ds saw it all, we talked a lot about it, so he wasn't shielded from some of the emotional stuff. Ironically, ds retains a good image of his father in his head. He focused on the good memories, not the bad. DS is not one to talk through his feelings, but there had to be some forgiveness going on. I think he has also accepted his father for who he was but loving him just the same. In many ways, he's forgiven more than me. 

I don't know if any of this is relevant for you. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by elegantlion

[Lecka]

My husband was suggested to look for a hobby he could enjoy together with my son.  My son was younger than a teen at the time, I don’t know if that would make a difference.

With the hobby they could spend time together, and it was more neutral and enjoyable.  Many family activities at the time involved my son being sullen and my husband being overly critical.  
 

Anyway — they played Magic:  The Gathering for a couple of years.  They both enjoyed it, they would have outings to look at cards at the card shop, and they both liked it.  My husband helped my son make a deck and they could play at home.  
 

Then my son quit liking Magic:  The Gathering, but their relationship had gotten better.  
 

My husband also was supposed to go out of his way to focus on making this be a nice time.  He would talk about it with the counselor and get feedback on how it was going.  Like — what worked, what didn’t work.  How to do more of what worked and less of what didn’t work.  

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

My husband was suggested to look for a hobby he could enjoy together with my son.  My son was younger than a teen at the time, I don’t know if that would make a difference.

With the hobby they could spend time together, and it was more neutral and enjoyable.  Many family activities at the time involved my son being sullen and my husband being overly critical.  
 

Anyway — they played Magic:  The Gathering for a couple of years.  They both enjoyed it, they would have outings to look at cards at the card shop, and they both liked it.  My husband helped my son make a deck and they could play at home.  
 

Then my son quit liking Magic:  The Gathering, but their relationship had gotten better.  
 

My husband also was supposed to go out of his way to focus on making this be a nice time.  He would talk about it with the counselor and get feedback on how it was going.  Like — what worked, what didn’t work.  How to do more of what worked and less of what didn’t work.  

I had a co-worker who did the same thing. She has three kids, and she did one activity per week with each kid of that kid's choice. What that meant for them was the kid would pick an activity for that season and they would do that one thing together once a week. One kid chose riding horses. Another kid chose skiing--since that cannot easily be done once a week for an hour, she and her teen went alone to ski all day or for a weekend at more spread-out intervals. I think the youngest kid had chosen painting, so they simply painted at home together.

The point is that this mom chose to do an activity that her child chose, just being present together and validating the child's interest, whatever it was. She said it revolutionized their relationships.

[maize]

10 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

That seems like a lot to ask a teenager to do.  

It is.

Please don't quote, I will come back and delete.

As you know, we've dealt with significant ongoing trauma for many years because of my husband's mental health struggles. He has simply been too volatile and unreliable for trust to exist. He is not an emotionally safe person. (Much improved in recent years as we finally found treatment that is effective for him; that doesn't erase the past though and there are enough slipping-backwards days to make feeling secure not really possible.)

It is not clear how this has impacted each of my children, some are more able to verbalize their own experiences, thoughts and emotions than others. The impact on my 18 year old seems clearest because she is able to analyze and articulate more than most of them. She absolutely does not trust him, and to some extent that distrust gets transferred to other men. Any pressure he tries to put on her gets a negative reaction, even if the pressure is in a direction she wanted to go anyway.

She is very ready to get out from under her father's roof.

She loves him, she has a pretty mature understanding of the limitations his illness have imposed on him. From the time she was young I have backed her up when she felt a need to confront him. I have done everything I could under the circumstances to mitigate the effects of his emotional volatility on all the children. But they've been through a lot.

I do not expect her to trust him. 

I don't know what she would say at this point about forgiveness. I'm sure she would react negatively to external pressure urging her to forgive him. Honestly I think such pressure would itself be a form of abuse. Any forgiveness would need to come from herself, out of a personal desire to forgive. It is certainly not a process that could be pressured or hurried.

Edited July 21, 2022 by maize

[bolt.]

I came here all prepared to answer, but this is such a healthy thread, filled with nuance, sensitivity, and wisdom! I have nothing additional to contribute: I just wanted to complement all of you!

[fairfarmhand]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

This bears repeating.  Building a new relationship is very scary.  I am currently attempting it with several,people and believe me it is a very slow process. 

Also, a teen may not want a new relationship with the parent *right now*. Teens may need to mature before they can consider this. 

I strongly urge parents of teens who are going through tough times to love as much as they can and to stand by in whatever ways that the kid will allow. Teens do need space to grow up and parents must be patient an allow them to do that with low pressure. 

If a parent gives the space and gets healthy, standing by and doing what the teen will allow, chances are VERY good that in the future, when the teen is a mature adult, they can create a new relationship.

Parents who attempt to force a relationship against the teen's wishes, one who pushes for more than the teen is ready to give are demonstrating that the relationship is more about the PARENT and what the parent wants than what the teen wants. 

Maturity and patience are going to be key.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Also, a teen may not want a new relationship with the parent *right now*. Teens may need to mature before they can consider this. 

I strongly urge parents of teens who are going through tough times to love as much as they can and to stand by in whatever ways that the kid will allow. Teens do need space to grow up and parents must be patient an allow them to do that with low pressure. 

If a parent gives the space and gets healthy, standing by and doing what the teen will allow, chances are VERY good that in the future, when the teen is a mature adult, they can create a new relationship.

Parents who attempt to force a relationship against the teen's wishes, one who pushes for more than the teen is ready to give are demonstrating that the relationship is more about the PARENT and what the parent wants than what the teen wants. 

Maturity and patience are going to be key.

Oh this is very true. I have seen this play out with 2 of my sons and one DIL.