vent - baby formula scarcity

[gardenmom5]

My grandson is 18 mos - so my daughter started feeding him cow's milk.

But some people . . . . . scream.

the posts of: - evaporated milk and Karo syrup . . . . "if parents had any brains, they would do that."   -----seriously, I've seen those comments, multiple times!

evap milk - so, cow's milk.  hard for babies to digest, and others are allergic to it.  karo - corn product that shouldn't be given to babies . . scream!

 

when she was living with us, mil did that with 1dd. (when I wasn't aware she was doing it - and telling her "no" never stopped her from doing something she wanted to do.) At the time, 1dd was a small infant that was exclusively breastfed . . . So, this really ticks me off .  . . 

Edited May 18, 2022 by gardenmom5

[ktgrok]

Yup. I've seen those posts too, saying how smart this is to do, acting like actual formula is some scam and that smart people would just make their own. 

[catz]

I have seen those too and find them so odd.  Don't people know what karo syrup is!?  Ugh.  

[ktgrok]

18 minutes ago, catz said:

I have seen those too and find them so odd.  Don't people know what karo syrup is!?  Ugh.  

honestly, the karo syrup probably isn't as bad for them as the straight cows milk. Although yeah, babies are meant to digest lactose, not fructose. 

[catz]

Just now, ktgrok said:

honestly, the karo syrup probably isn't as bad for them as the straight cows milk. Although yeah, babies are meant to digest lactose, not fructose. 

Right, it's all awfu but I just envision spooning sugar into a baby's mouth.  Cow's milk + sugar, great idea people.  🙄

I do know people who've been directed to supplement with goat's milk.  

[HS Mom in NC]

It's nuts. 

People do say dumb things like that. My Mom heard it too.  When I was weaned I was put on goat's milk because it's far easier for babies to digest than cow's milk. We lived next door to a goat farm and the owner agreed to sell my mother the rights to half a goat at a very generous discount meaning 1 milking per day after Mom got home from work while the owner housed and fed the goat at her expense and did the morning milking.

Or the posts I see about just breastfeeding instead.  I relactated for an adopted child 3 years after weaning. I took the fast track route with hormones mimicking pregnancy and an every  2 hour pumping schedule. It took a few months. What would mothers trying to relactate after six months do in the meantime? I assume it would go faster for them, but still? A kid has to eat something until the milk is back and I'm betting finding a high grade breast pump, which is required for most people to relactate, is harder now. 
 

[Clemsondana]

Although, to be fair,..I started looking at formula labels online wondering what went into them (I never used formula) and some have nonfat milk (others have soy, some have straight lactose) and several had corn syrup solids as one of the main ingredients. I know that they have various other things supplemented in, but the base ingredients for some of the common ones seem to be milk and corn syrup.  Our doctor had us put our kid on whole milk at 9 months to get more fat into them even though they were eating table food and still nursing some, so I had no idea that people used formula after the first year.  

[freesia]

5 minutes ago, catz said:

Right, it's all awfu but I just envision spooning sugar into a baby's mouth.  Cow's milk + sugar, great idea people.  🙄

I do know people who've been directed to supplement with goat's milk.  

I believe goat's milk has the same types of rations of fat/protein, etc as human milk--or close to it.  It was the first milk I introduced to most of my kids.

[Tanaqui]

In the mid-20th century, baby formula was, in fact, a formula - a recipe that you made at home, and some recipes did include the milk and the karo syrup. Babies can survive on that. They can also survive being put to sleep on their tummies and being cuddled in the car while the parents smoke with the windows rolled up. This is not exactly something to aspire to or be nostalgic for.

[Farrar]

Putting babies to sleep on their tummies or letting them sit in a parent's lap in the car are good analogies.

I will say... for someone who can't find baby formula genuinely, especially for an older baby... I do wonder at this point what's the harm in telling them best practices beyond formula? Because I've seen a lot of things mocking and deriding these approaches (with good reason in many cases) but I have wondered... okay, you've got a hungry 10 month old and there's no formula to be found at several stores. Now what? Surely there's something that is better than a starving baby. And surely pediatricians and nutritionists can suggest what that is? I mean, that's not a crazy hypothetical at this point. That is a thing that is happening to some parents. But I've seen several articles basically saying wait for formula?

Edited May 18, 2022 by Farrar

[fairfarmhand]

21 minutes ago, freesia said:

I believe goat's milk has the same types of rations of fat/protein, etc as human milk--or close to it.  It was the first milk I introduced to most of my kids.

My aunt was raised on goat milk when she turned up allergic to my grandmother's breast milk. If my dd24 couldn't nurse and couldn't find formula for my month old grandson, guess who will be acquiring a nanny goat and milking a goat? 

 

You got it. Me. Since my dd lives in an apartment, I guess I'll be milking a goat. Which isn't the worst thing I've ever done out here on the farm.

 

Thankfully, nursing is going well for them.

20 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

In the mid-20th century, baby formula was, in fact, a formula - a recipe that you made at home, and some recipes did include the milk and the karo syrup. Babies can survive on that. They can also survive being put to sleep on their tummies and being cuddled in the car while the parents smoke with the windows rolled up. This is not exactly something to aspire to or be nostalgic for.

My dh was raised on Carnation milk and Karo. IT seems so weird to think of a time when commercially available formula wasn't manufactured! But those were the times where they did what they had to do. I guess my MIL didn't consider goats milk!  If I had a child who was hungry, I might do the same.

[Dianthus]

I understand some people cannot breastfeed. But many that are able to breastfeed choose not to. IMO, if more people who could breastfeed did, maybe a shortage would be less of an issue. 

If my baby is hungry, and I had nothing else, I would make do with oatwater, goat milk, evaporated milk and Karo, anything they would tolerate that would provide sustenance. If the child does not have an allergy, evaporated milk and Karo is better than nothing.

[Farrar]

My grandmother supposedly fed my father mashed up field peas the day he was born. Like, cream 10's or something. She bragged about it and said it was the best infant food there was. My father always looked slightly askance about it when she brought it up, but mostly because he was OBSESSED with peas his whole life.

The first time she told me this story, I'm pretty sure she was literally holding one of my babies and if I'd had enough hands to go grab him back to keep her from feeding him peas, I might have done.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Spirea said:

I understand some people cannot breastfeed. But many that are able to breastfeed choose not to. IMO, if more people who could breastfeed did, maybe a shortage would be less of an issue. 

I feel like this is so hard to discuss. I'd love for the information getting to new moms be more accurate about the benefits of breastmilk (moderate, but very real) and the costs (very low for most moms who are staying home) and the ease (most moms find it pretty easy and convenient after an initial adjustment) and for there to be much better free access to breastfeeding support. But also... lots of people have trouble and they are in the right to choose not to push through. Having a baby is hard. And the number of moms deciding to formula feed solely for personal convenience is overall pretty low. The convenience aspect is more about working. And that's a necessity. So I think even if every mom who decided just for the heck of it not to breastfeed did instead... we'd absolutely 100% still be in this mess with this scarcity. 

[gardenmom5]

44 minutes ago, catz said:

Right, it's all awfu but I just envision spooning sugar into a baby's mouth.  Cow's milk + sugar, great idea people.  🙄

I do know people who've been directed to supplement with goat's milk.  

My sister had to have goat's milk.  The 50's was a different world.  Breastfeeding was "old fashioned" and formula was better . . . . eye roll. That is what they were told.

44 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

It's nuts. 

People do say dumb things like that. My Mom heard it too.  When I was weaned I was put on goat's milk because it's far easier for babies to digest than cow's milk. We lived next door to a goat farm and the owner agreed to sell my mother the rights to half a goat at a very generous discount meaning 1 milking per day after Mom got home from work while the owner housed and fed the goat at her expense and did the morning milking.

Or the posts I see about just breastfeeding instead.  I relactated for an adopted child 3 years after weaning. I took the fast track route with hormones mimicking pregnancy and an every  2 hour pumping schedule. It took a few months. What would mothers trying to relactate after six months do in the meantime? I assume it would go faster for them, but still? A kid has to eat something until the milk is back and I'm betting finding a high grade breast pump, which is required for most people to relactate, is harder now. 
 

and that's assuming someone has time to go through the process.  some women physically can't, other's are too busy working that they can't just go pump.   I'm a very pro-breastfeeding, (all five of my kids, exclusive to six months, and weaned at 18 mos), but I'm also aware some mom's just can't.  

-eta: yeah, it might be different if there was better support.  But families are often widely spread out and can't offer it.  Some are so radical, they bash anyone who isn't successful.

I had one . . . . . I was ready to wean him at six weeks because of the problems with feeding - but I was an experienced breastfeeding mom so I tried some other things.  I he'd been my first . . . he woud have been weaned and not sure I would have even tried again.  Actually -  dudeling was a major challenge, and a production. It was a few months.  I suspect it was related to other issues he had, and my ped was NOT supportive!  If I had been working part time - he would have had to have formula.

Edited May 18, 2022 by gardenmom5

[vonfirmath]

12 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I understand some people cannot breastfeed. But many that are able to breastfeed choose not to. IMO, if more people who could breastfeed did, maybe a shortage would be less of an issue. 

If my baby is hungry, and I had nothing else, I would make do with oatwater, goat milk, evaporated milk and Karo, anything they would tolerate that would provide sustenance. If the child does not have an allergy, evaporated milk and Karo is better than nothing.

Many that are able to breastfeed do not have the supply to cover their kids' needs. This is why I understand these moms' panic. I was SO certain my kiddo was not getting formula. I was going to breastfeed. !!  I threw away the formula samples we were given because "if you have formula in the house, you won't try hard enough to establish breastfeeding"  WE got him to latch on in the hospital and he drank -- a little. We regularly put him to the breast. And he seemed to be drinking. But he cried a LOT and when we went to the first weighing, he had lost a LOT of weight (They did not put him back in the hospital since, because he started at nearly 9lbs, he didn't quite lose 10% of his body weight).  The lactation consultant did a weigh before and after and discovered, though he worked hard to get milk -- he was not getting much. She had us supplement with formula while we worked on getting my supply up -- but it NEVER covered all of his needs. I ended up being satisfied he got about half his food needs from me and the other half from formula. But he was fed and a much happier baby who started to gain weight and thrive.

 

My doctor told me that it was fairly common among her patients to have mothers that did some of each instead of all breastfeeding or all formula.

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by vonfirmath

[prairiewindmomma]

Watching working moms try to navigate getting enough pumping time and having a safe space to store their milk….it’s rough. 
 

Most of my friends are professionals. Can you imagine trying to navigate that while also working at Wendy’s or Target or even as a nurse? Those people often don’t even get enough time to eat or pee let alone pump for 30 min every three hours.

[prairiewindmomma]

My 5th kid ended up being born preemie and in NICU. I had already nursed for 9 years at that point…pumping every 2-3 hours for an hour at a time 24/7 trying to get milk for that kid’s NG tube…it was rough. 
 

Even once she was home and able to b-feed, she still needed preemie supplemental formula her entire first year because she missed getting critical minerals because she was born so preemie. 
 

We need to stop judging moms and ask ourselves how we got to the point of letting only four companies provide all of the milk for so many babies or why we tie WIC payments only to one brand. We have structural problems and need to stop blaming individuals.

[Elizabeth86]

My mom, aunts, everyone did this in the late 60’s. Not ideal by today’s standards, but they all survived. Their dr’s actually told them to do this. 

[HS Mom in NC]

2 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I understand some people cannot breastfeed. But many that are able to breastfeed choose not to. IMO, if more people who could breastfeed did, maybe a shortage would be less of an issue. 

If my baby is hungry, and I had nothing else, I would make do with oatwater, goat milk, evaporated milk and Karo, anything they would tolerate that would provide sustenance. If the child does not have an allergy, evaporated milk and Karo is better than nothing.

I do agree that if there's nothing else available then whatever keeps them alive is preferable to death, but that's not the situation most people are in.

I do endorse women choosing breastfeeding first too, but I understand it can be a much harder choice for some and easier for others. As for breastfeeding as a way to avoid formula shortage issues,  they would have to know there will be or consider the possibility of a shortage upcoming when they give birth; they'll need medically sound breastfeeding advice (most people providing breastfeeding advice in a hospital are mislabeled "lactation consultants" and not IBCLC, which means being medically trained and certified), hence the low breastfeeding rates among women who start out breastfeeding; they'll need to be with the baby during infancy or have access to a high quality breast pump, assuming they are women who physically can pump, (some women who can breastfeed are not able to pump with even the highest quality breast pumps); and there are some women who suffer trauma from sexual abuse that are triggered by certain forms of touch by anyone, including their babies.  In other words, it's more complicated to make that choice and get results if anything listed above is a factor.

It's not a switch that can be easily flipped after the fact (see my description of relactating for an adopted child post above.)
 

[Soror]

I think bfing is irrelevant to this situation and I exclusively nursed all 4 (no formula for any of them). These kids are already on formula. They need answers now but all I read is don't feed your kids homemade formula and don't hoard it. No answers for when you can't find it. The response is deplorable. 

[KSera]

24 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I will say... for someone who can't find baby formula genuinely, especially for an older baby... I do wonder at this point what's the harm in telling them best practices beyond formula? Because I've seen a lot of things mocking and deriding these approaches (with good reason in many cases) but I have wondered... okay, you've got a hungry 10 month old and there's no formula to be found at several stores. Now what? Surely there's something that is better than a starving baby. And surely pediatricians and nutritionists can suggest what that is? I mean, that's not a crazy hypothetical at this point. That is a thing that is happening to some parents. But I've seen several articles basically saying wait for formula?

I totally agree that for a parent who has nothing they can feed their baby, they absolutely need to be being given an alternative to use in the meantime. The babies under 6 months old would be the ones I worry most about and should probably be first in line for formula if they are not breastfeeding at all and their parents can't find any formula. What I'm seeing in my area though isn't that people can't find any formula, it's that they have one very specific formula they use and they can't find that one and are desperate for it. I understand that's an issue for babies that have sensitivities to various formulas, but for many others, under the current circumstances it seems parents who are formula feeding will need to be more flexible in what they feed their babies until the supply is back. Again, especially for babies over 6 months who are eating some other foods anyway, it seems better for parents to be flexible in formula types and leave the very special ones for younger babies who don't have other options right now. I don't know how that actually looks practically though, because it's not like it's something that could be enforced.

9 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I feel like this is so hard to discuss. I'd love for the information getting to new moms be more accurate about the benefits of breastmilk (moderate, but very real) and the costs (very low for most moms who are staying home) and the ease (most moms find it pretty easy and convenient after an initial adjustment) and for there to be much better free access to breastfeeding support. But also... lots of people have trouble and they are in the right to choose not to push through. Having a baby is hard. And the number of moms deciding to formula feed solely for personal convenience is overall pretty low. The convenience aspect is more about working. And that's a necessity. So I think even if every mom who decided just for the heck of it not to breastfeed did instead... we'd absolutely 100% still be in this mess with this scarcity. 

I actually see a lot of decisions to breastfeed due to just not wanting to honestly. In my world, of the people who choose not to breastfeed, that seems more common than other reasons. Well, that and bad breastfeeding/supplementing advice that leads people to quit really early. I actually tend to see professional moms more committed to pumping and feeding breastmilk compared to moms who are at home but just don't want to breastfeed (though to be clear, I see more that do breastfeed than don't, especially for the first 6 months or so). Definitely I expect it's a lot harder issue for working moms in jobs that do not accomodate pumping well though.

[Dianthus]

16 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Many that are able to breastfeed do not have the supply to cover their kids' needs. This is why I understand these moms' panic. I was SO certain my kiddo was not getting formula. I was going to breastfeed. !!  I threw away the formula samples we were given because "if you have formula in the house, you won't try hard enough to establish breastfeeding"  WE got him to latch on in the hospital and he drank -- a little. We regularly put him to the breast. And he seemed to be drinking. But he cried a LOT and when we went to the first weighing, he had lost a LOT of weight (They did not put him back in the hospital since, because he started at nearly 9lbs, he didn't quite lose 10% of his body weight).  The lactation consultant did a weigh before and after and discovered, though he worked hard to get milk -- he was not getting much. She had us supplement with formula while we worked on getting my supply up -- but it NEVER covered all of his needs. I ended up being satisfied he got about half his food needs from me and the other half from formula. But he was fed and a much happier baby who started to gain weight and thrive.

 

My doctor told me that it was fairly common among her patients to have mothers that did some of each instead of all breastfeeding or all formula.

 

I have known at least 5 people who didn't even try to breastfeed. I think all these moms had c-sections so maybe with recovery they didn't want to make the effort, maybe getting things started is harder? I don't know. At least 3 of them didn't work at all. Others had maternity leave. They didn't try. Hard for me to relate as I didn't have surgery, just a natural childbirth and lactation was fine and always seemed so much easier to me than preparing and sterilizing bottles of formula. So I know I had it easy. But it just seems like a lot of people choose formula even when breastmilk is an option.

I just weaned my 18m old and it did occur to me to try relactation to donate milk, but I don't have a good pump, only a hand pump, and really feel done.

Eta. I hope new moms who have the option will see this shortage and choose breastfeeding over formula.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Spirea

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I do agree that if there's nothing else available then whatever keeps them alive is preferable to death, but that's not the situation most people are in.

You’re probably right about *most*, but the fact is some are right now. There’s like, 50% of the usual amount of formula needed available. 100% of babies need to eat. Perhaps the recommendation to give babies over 6 months regular milk will help that temporarily, but I’d hate to be the moms of 6mos, having to decide.

For whatever it’s worth, #5 thrived on corn syrup and oils. That’s what his prescription formula was. (With added vitamins and whatnot, of course.). It saved his life, and we’re pretty convinced it gave him superpowers.

[Loowit]

People saying "well they should be breastfeeding" are being pretty snarky.  Most moms with babies past early newborn stage on formula can't just suddenly start lactating.  I am a huge proponent of breastfeeding and breastfeeding support, but saying things like that is not helpful in any way.

It would be great if our society was more breastfeeding friendly.  And I don't mean putting out "breast if best" ads, but actually providing supports like more paid maternity leave, decent places to pump at work or baby breaks at work, and less negativity toward breastfeeding in public.  I think that would help increase the number of mothers who were willing/able to try breastfeeding.  I understand not every mom can breastfeed.

I was not able to breastfeed my first baby despite getting help from multiple lactation specialists and even seeking help from a speech therapist to look at my baby's mouth to see if there was a malformation or something.  I was glad that there was a decent alternative, but I was also very glad when she reached a year and the doctor told me she could switch to whole milk.  That saved us a lot of money.

I was able to breastfeed my boys to self-weaning (one at 2 years and the other at 3 years).  It was not easy with youngest because he started out in the NICU and I had to pump and bottle feed until he was strong enough to nurse.  Then we had to weigh him after each feeding and supplement with formula so he ate a certain amount.  But I was glad I had the support system in the hospital because youngest was allergic to many foods and it would have been almost impossible to find a formula he could have eaten.  I had to cut a lot of foods out of my diet to make it so my milk didn't make him sick.

My mom as a baby was homemade formula fed.  The canned milk with corn syrup type.  My grandparents were very poor and couldn't afford much.  My mom had been hospitalized when she was a few weeks old with meningitis and almost died.  While in the hospital my grandmother couldn't nurse her because my mom was too sick.  After she was released my grandmother's milk had dried up.  They did what they could at the time to feed my mom the best they knew how.  Fortunately now we have better ideas about nutrition and what is healthier for babies, and I think most moms have better options available to them.

[ktgrok]

The sugar part doesn't bother me - brains need sugar and babies are supposed to get sugar - there is sugar in breastmilk, and in store bought formula. It's the higher protein that is in cows milk (I think I'm remembering that right - too much protein compared to other stuff, or maybe it is sodium...can't remember now) that is hard on the kidnesy, and that cows milk can cause GI bleeding in infants. 

If there truly is NO formula, yes, absolutely, use a "formula" to make your own. Goats milk is likely easier on the tummy as the protein molecules don't clump as much - easier to break down. 

But what I am upset by are the people acting like, "Oh, this is way better/cheaper than buying formula, so even if you have some, this would be smarter!" Like the store bought stuff is a scam and the smart people who are not sheep will just make their own. 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I have known at least 5 people who didn't even try to breastfeed. I think all these moms had c-sections so maybe with recovery they didn't want to make the effort, maybe getting things started is harder? I don't know. At least 3 of them didn't work at all. Others had maternity leave. They didn't try. Hard for me to relate as I didn't have surgery, just a natural childbirth and lactation was fine and always seemed so much easier to me than preparing and sterilizing bottles of formula. So I know I had it easy. But it just seems like a lot of people choose formula even when breastmilk is an option.

I just weaned my 18m old and it did occur to me to try relactation to donate milk, but I don't have a good pump, only a hand pump, and really feel done.

Eta. I hope new moms who have the option will see this shortage and choose breastfeeding over formula.

A lot of women who have been sexually assaulted have trauma issues that make breastfeeding unpleasant. But they are unlikely to talk about that, and sometimes don't even really label it for themselves. 

Some other women have husbands who don't want them to breastfeed, and have made them feel that if they nurse they won't be sexually appealing to their husband anymore - again they may not offer that up because they don't want to say that their husband is shaming or controlling them. 

Some have had surgery that makes lactation less likely to work - certain types of breast augmentation or reduction. Again, not something they may want to share publicly. 

 

[Shoeless]

21 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Watching working moms try to navigate getting enough pumping time and having a safe space to store their milk….it’s rough. 
 

Most of my friends are professionals. Can you imagine trying to navigate that while also working at Wendy’s or Target or even as a nurse? Those people often don’t even get enough time to eat or pee let alone pump for 30 min every three hours.

Bingo. I was a veterinary nurse in a small practice. We did not have a lunchroom, let alone a space to pump. Forget about having the time for it. I got static over the once a week prenatal appointments I had at the end of my pregnancy. It was 1 hour, unpaid, yet still a "problem impacting the staff and practice". 

How receptive were they going to be if I needed 90 minutes *every day* to pump, if I got talked to over 60 minutes once a week? 

What a load of crap. 

And no, I didn't even bother trying to nurse. I was busy recovering from the c section during maternity leave. I had ZERO family help after I had DS. None. Not my mom, not MIL, not an aunt, not my sisters. No one. So no, trying harder to establish breast feeding wasn't on the table for my brief 7 weeks of unpaid leave. I was too busy trying to heal and survive. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by MissLemon

[prairiewindmomma]

5 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I have known at least 5 people who didn't even try to breastfeed. I think all these moms had c-sections so maybe with recovery they didn't want to make the effort, maybe getting things started is harder? I don't know. At least 3 of them didn't work at all. Others had maternity leave. They didn't try. Hard for me to relate as I didn't have surgery, just a natural childbirth and lactation was fine and always seemed so much easier to me than preparing and sterilizing bottles of formula. So I know I had it easy. But it just seems like a lot of people choose formula even when breastmilk is an option.

I just weaned my 18m old and it did occur to me to try relactation to donate milk, but I don't have a good pump, only a hand pump, and really feel done.

And why is it a problem that they chose to bottle feed? They sure as heck aren’t going to advertise that they are on antidepressants that conflict with bfeeding or that they have anxiety about b-feeding or whatever their choice was as to why bottles worked best for them.

As strongly as I felt that b-feeding was right for my family, we should be pushing for women to be able to choose how to feed their baby. Bodily autonomy is important. Fed is best.

[ktgrok]

I will say, I never used any formula, my kids were all nursed fully for 5-6 months, then alongside solids for basically forever. BUT...even with hanging out at LLL meetings, having friends who were nursing, seeing a lactation consultant more than once, etc...it wasn't always easy. With my first, it was sheer bull headedness - I was so angry about having a c-section that I decided that I'd MAKE nursing work because SOMETHING was going to go right. I was up crying in the night, it was miserable, I had bloody scabbed nipples that no one bothered to pay attention to, etc. FINALLY a freaking midwife at my 6 week check noticed, immediately had me show her how we were nursing, and realized it was NOT a latch issue (which was perfect, and the reason no on else thought we had a problem), it was a positioning issue! I had his head too far one direction or something, I forget now. But it was creating a tiny bit of drag on the nipple as he ate. Not much at any. one time, but over the hours and hours and hours...it beat the crap out of my nipples. 

I also had raynauds in my nipples each time. 

And pumping BARELY worked for me. was worse with each child - my body quickly realized it wasn't a real baby, so despite having oversupply at times when actually nursing, I'd get a trickle for the pump. Tried ALL the things, still was an issue. I only worked part time, and my boss let my baby come to me on my break so I could nurse then, but otherwise, if I'd worked full time, I'd have needed formula for sure. 

Our society is NOT set up to have women be able to breastfeed exclusively. And I don't just blame the medical establishment (although I DO blame them - they know next to nothing about lactation and have zero interest in researching it), but also the extremists who insisted if my baby had a single pacifier I'd never be able to nurse him. When people say it is "all or nothing" and women are not able or willing to go "all in" they figure why bother trying. 

And now we have a society and work culture that isn't supportive of breastfeeding, and a formula shortage, and it still is somehow the woman's fault in most people's eyes. 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Bingo. I was a veterinary nurse in a small practice. We did not have a lunchroom, let alone a space to pump. Forget about having the time for it. I got static over the once a week prenatal appointments I had at the end of my pregnancy. It was 1 hour, unpaid, yet still a "problem impacting the staff and practice". 

How receptive were they going to be if I needed 90 minutes *every day* to pump, if I got talked to over 60 minutes once a week? 

What a load of crap. 

And no, I didn't even bother trying to nurse. I was busy recovering from the c section during maternity leave. I had ZERO family help after I had DS. None. Not my mom, not MIL, not an aunt, not my sisters. No one. So no, trying harder to establish breast feeding wasn't on the table for my brief 7 weeks of unpaid leave. I was too busy trying to heal and survive. 

And knowing you wouldn't be able to pump, I'm sure that was a factor. If you knew you'd have excellent lactation help before you went home, and a nurse coming to help you with breastfeeding and any other issues once or twice a week when you got home, and had grown up seeing other women nursing all around you so it wasn't a matter of learning to ride a bike with no help when you'd never even seen one before, etc etc...maybe you'd have been interested in try. But I can see why one wouldn't even bother if you knew it would be hard, AND knew that you'd have no help, AND knew you would be stopping anyway in a few weeks when you went back to work. 

Women are put in impossible situations. Don't use formula, but don't actually expect to be able to nurse in public, or pump, or get any help with it. It is madness. 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

And why is it a problem that they chose to bottle feed? They sure as heck aren’t going to advertise that they are on antidepressants that conflict with bfeeding or that they have anxiety about b-feeding or whatever their choice was as to why bottles worked best for them.

As strongly as I felt that b-feeding was right for my family, we should be pushing for women to be able to choose how to feed their baby. Bodily autonomy is important. Fed is best.

Yup. 

I feel very strongly that we need better support for nursing mothers. I feel VERY strongly that we need better information for mothers, so they can make informed decisions. 

And I feel even more strongly that the actual decision is theirs alone. 

[vonfirmath]

11 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

And why is it a problem that they chose to bottle feed? They sure as heck aren’t going to advertise that they are on antidepressants that conflict with bfeeding or that they have anxiety about b-feeding or whatever their choice was as to why bottles worked best for them.

As strongly as I felt that b-feeding was right for my family, we should be pushing for women to be able to choose how to feed their baby. Bodily autonomy is important. Fed is best.

"fed is best"

This statement right here is part of what helped me NOT get depressed over my own failure to breastfeed.

 

[Shoeless]

I think what really gets me angry about this is the judgement over breastfeeding and formula always comes from other women. I never got attitude about it from the men I knew. They were always like "Whatever you need or want to do; it's your choice". 

But the women had opinions. Lots and lots of opinions, but zero support offered. 

[Shoeless]

13 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Women are put in impossible situations. Don't use formula, but don't actually expect to be able to nurse in public, or pump, or get any help with it. It is madness. 

I'm actually pretty furious atm about all the ways women aren't supported, and instead are expected to just suck it up and "try harder".

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

I'm actually pretty furious atm about all the ways women aren't supported, and instead are expected to just suck it up and "try harder".

It's so much easier to point fingers at the Karen next door than it is to address the structural issues.  Blame and shame.  It's a tactic applied to nearly every issue: poverty, racism, church toxicity, public school performance, health care, and so on.

It's kind of like watching the news....so many channels just have commentary where the people yell at each other rather than using the time to make an argument, build the case, persuade, and work together to make change. The ties of society and community have fallen apart and now we're all just blaming and shaming rather than building and supporting.

 

 

[Dianthus]

I guess I thought I made it clear in my original post. Some people cannot breastfeed, but some people are able to (are home, are healthy, are producing, aren't on meds) and choose not to. My SIL was one of them. No issues, she had to inhibit lactation, but it is semi cultural maybe. MIL chose to formula feed so thinks it's better, and SIL seems to think the same. I was the strange barbaric one for choosing to breaatfeed. Big digression, I agree that's not the issue right now and food needs to be available for the babies that need it now. But I do hope that a mom (without other issues) that is on the fence might from this shortage decide to try breastfeeding.

[ktgrok]

13 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I'm actually pretty furious atm about all the ways women aren't supported, and instead are expected to just suck it up and "try harder".

Yup. 

8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

It's so much easier to point fingers at the Karen next door than it is to address the structural issues.  Blame and shame.  It's a tactic applied to nearly every issue: poverty, racism, church toxicity, public school performance, health care, and so on.

 

So true. Easier to point at someone individually than to restructure the work place, change cultural perceptions, provide adequate leave, and allocate funding and effort to research lactation issues as the actual health issue they are. Not to mention the number of doctors totally misinformed. I don't care if you are not an OB/GYN, if you prescribe medication to women you should at LEAST know how to GET information on how the meds you prescribe effect lactation. Not just say, "well, drugs are probably bad for baby" and tell her to quit nursing or give up her medication. Women are half your patients! 

[Loowit]

4 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I guess I thought I made it clear in my original post. Some people cannot breastfeed, but some people are able to (are home, are healthy, are producing, aren't on meds) and choose not to. My SIL was one of them. No issues, she had to inhibit lactation, but it is semi cultural maybe. MIL chose to formula feed so thinks it's better, and SIL seems to think the same. I was the strange barbaric one for choosing to breaatfeed. Big digression, I agree that's not the issue right now and food needs to be available for the babies that need it now. But I do hope that a mom (without other issues) that is on the fence might from this shortage decide to try breastfeeding.

My mom chose not to breastfeed past a couple weeks with me and my sister and didn't even try with my brother.  Her doctor convinced her that formula was better for baby.  I only remember one mom that breastfed when I was a kid growing up and she was considered weird.  So it was a big shock to me when my sister got pregnant, that she was very big on breastfeeding.  She is the one who convinced me of the benefits of it, not in a pushy way at all, but through chatting.  She was always supportive of me.  I know a lot of older ladies who thought it was strange that any woman would chose to breastfeed when formula is so convenient.  I guess I am glad my sister kind paved the way ahead of me so that it was more normalized in my family by the time my oldest was born, even though I wasn't able to breastfeed DD.

Anyway, I was thinking about all of the whole breastfeeding vs. formula feeding debates and have noticed that a lot comes down to classes (social, not educational).  Years ago, when my grand-mothers and great-grandmothers had kids it was considered low class to breastfeed.  Rich women could hire a wet nurse.  I blame Queen Victoria for the rise in this idea, but I could be wrong.  Then, wealthier women could buy the new "healthier" formula, that poor people couldn't.  Now it seems that the tide is changing and only the wealthy (broadly speaking here) can afford to breastfeed in that they have the time, resources (pumping at work), job that allows for it or ability to stay home.  Poor women who have to work mostly have jobs don't give them the options of long maternity leave or places to pump, let alone time to pump.  My sister was so fortunate that even though she had to go back to work at 6 weeks, she could pump in private at work twice a day, plus my mom brought my niece to breastfeed at lunch time everyday.  Not many women have this available to them.  It is a bit of a switch where breastfeeding is for the elite (again broadly speaking), and poor people can't afford to do it in many cases.

[Ting Tang]

I am pro feeding babies.

I couldn't nurse my first, so I decided to exclusively pump and did the same for the others.

Then I fell ill with one and my output dropped dramatically, so my husband had to go out and buy a can of formula since we had gone through our samples.

I'm not sure what people are supposed to do, other than feed their babies, using whatever they feel and have researched to be the healthiest option from all the choices.

The only alternative is to starve your baby. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Ting Tang

[BusyMom5]

What is frustrating to me is all the advice to NOT use those recipies, while not providing an alternative.   Many moms don't know goat milk is easier on the tummy than cows milk- I do bc 2 of mine were allergic to dairy if I ate it!  They both were able to tolerate goat milk around age 2- and I live rural and found a farmer to sell some to me.  Our area is out, we don't have a lot of stores, and I am seeing daily moms asking where they can find it in a 1 hour radius,  or more!  Its really easy to sit here, as moms who nursed or are no longer feeding formula and just tell moms to look harder.  We need a message from Drs on what to do when there IS NO FORMULA!  I did see one Dr near me say that 10+ months, try cows milk and increase solid food options. 

Editing to add that by not really addressing what should be used instead,  moms can't know the best alternative and are left to ask granny or the internet.  Moms need to hear- First, look for formula and don't be picky on the brand.  If you can't find any, use toddler formula.  Can't find that, goat milk, you can find it in the dairy section of biggerxgrocery stores.. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by BusyMom5

[Dmmetler]

56 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I will say, I never used any formula, my kids were all nursed fully for 5-6 months, then alongside solids for basically forever. BUT...even with hanging out at LLL meetings, having friends who were nursing, seeing a lactation consultant more than once, etc...it wasn't always easy. With my first, it was sheer bull headedness - I was so angry about having a c-section that I decided that I'd MAKE nursing work because SOMETHING was going to go right. I was up crying in the night, it was miserable, I had bloody scabbed nipples that no one bothered to pay attention to, etc. FINALLY a freaking midwife at my 6 week check noticed, immediately had me show her how we were nursing, and realized it was NOT a latch issue (which was perfect, and the reason no on else thought we had a problem), it was a positioning issue! I had his head too far one direction or something, I forget now. But it was creating a tiny bit of drag on the nipple as he ate. Not much at any. one time, but over the hours and hours and hours...it beat the crap out of my nipples. 

I also had raynauds in my nipples each time. 

And pumping BARELY worked for me. was worse with each child - my body quickly realized it wasn't a real baby, so despite having oversupply at times when actually nursing, I'd get a trickle for the pump. Tried ALL the things, still was an issue. I only worked part time, and my boss let my baby come to me on my break so I could nurse then, but otherwise, if I'd worked full time, I'd have needed formula for sure. 

Our society is NOT set up to have women be able to breastfeed exclusively. And I don't just blame the medical establishment (although I DO blame them - they know next to nothing about lactation and have zero interest in researching it), but also the extremists who insisted if my baby had a single pacifier I'd never be able to nurse him. When people say it is "all or nothing" and women are not able or willing to go "all in" they figure why bother trying. 

And now we have a society and work culture that isn't supportive of breastfeeding, and a formula shortage, and it still is somehow the woman's fault in most people's eyes. 

As someone who EP’d for 2 years with a premature baby with oral motor issues that, by the time they were able to nurse productively had decided it was not worth it, my reason for pumping came down to sheer stubbornness. After a pregnancy loss, two seriously complicated pregnancies, months on bed rest and in and out of the hospital, and now the kid wouldn’t nurse, pumping was the one thing I could do right. And fortunately, it worked-my supply actually let me not only feed L, but a friend’s 1 yr old who had immune system issues and needed the antibodies of breast milk.  I was pumping a liter plus a day for awhile there. 
 

My baby is 17, and I still have the Lactina pump that insurance reluctantly bought for me, and I think it’s because it was pretty much the one thing under my control in that whole difficult several years.  Unfortunately, at just under 50, I don’t think relactating is likely to work. 
 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Dmmetler

[SKL]

Well this thread is an eye-opener for me.

When my kids came home 15 years ago, I was informed that the WHO only recommends formula for 9 months (if you can't breastfeed).  The US was an outlier at 12mos recommendation at the time.  My mom told me that weight was more important than age once you get closer to a year old.  I happily weaned my kid off formula and onto cow's milk at 10 or 11 mos.  (This actually resolved the constipation problem she was having on formula.)

I was probably influenced by looking at the formula ingredient label.  It wasn't very impressive.

I know nobody IRL who ever fed a healthy child formula past age 12 months.  I do understand some health conditions would require that.

When I was a kid, those of us who didn't breastfeed for at least 12mos had a mixture of cow's milk and water.  We were and are pretty healthy.  I was way healthier as a kid than the average kid now ... was it the cow's milk, the unblocked sunshine, the spankings, the tummy sleeping, or something else?  😛

But seriously, given that there is an actual formula shortage in the USA right now, I think it would make sense to look to the WHO guidelines to see what is really OK to do, as a start.

Edited May 18, 2022 by SKL

[JustEm]

I have been on the lookout for formula for my sil. She has twins, one of which is formula fed because of issues early in her life (I'm sure I mentioned it when it happened.) Right now she has roughly a month supply thankfully. She also has multiple lactating friends who would pump for her if she couldn't get her supply up to support both babies. 

The stress she is going through right now is hard to watch. I can't imagine how people who don't have a support system to spend time searching and pumping are managing.

[Garga]

Is there enough goat’s milk to go around? It’s not like there are gallons upon gallons of the stuff in stores. People can start buying it, but I don’t see how there won’t immediately be a shortage if everyone with a baby heads out to buy goats milk all at the same time.

Not to say don’t try buying it, of course, but I just see a shortage of goat’s milk coming down the pike. Millions of Americans do not live anywhere near goat farms so they don’t have the option to ask their friendly goat farmer for a bit of milk

Edited May 19, 2022 by Garga

[Catwoman]

I find it interesting that so many very liberal women, who preach body autonomy and women’s freedom to choose what they want to do with their own bodies, have no problem whatsoever with shaming women who choose not to breastfeed their babies. I don’t see too much of it on this forum, but elsewhere… yikes! Apparently, all new moms should be required to “at least try” to breastfeed, whether or not they want to, and if they don’t,  they mustn’t really love their babies or want them to be healthy.

Ugh.

I guess there are only certain things women should be allowed to choose for ourselves… 🙄

Edited May 18, 2022 by Catwoman
Sometimes you just need another comma.

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, freesia said:

I believe goat's milk has the same types of rations of fat/protein, etc as human milk--or close to it.  It was the first milk I introduced to most of my kids.

No, goat's milk has more than 3 times as much protein, and less sugar than human milk.   

Goat's milk might be a good drink for a toddler or maybe older infant transitioning, or it might be a good base for a formula, but it's not safe for an infant.

[Bootsie]

I was born in the early 1960s.  My mom said that the doctors would write out a "formula" to use for feeding a baby in a bottle (which generally contained canned milk and Karo syrup).  One of my children who was born in the 90s had significant GI problems--and one of the treatments was a bit of Karo syrup in water in a bottle.  

[Shoeless]

5 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

What is frustrating to me is all the advice to NOT use those recipies, while not providing an alternative.   Many moms don't know goat milk is easier on the tummy than cows milk- I do bc 2 of mine were allergic to dairy if I ate it!  They both were able to tolerate goat milk around age 2- and I live rural and found a farmer to sell some to me.  Our area is out, we don't have a lot of stores, and I am seeing daily moms asking where they can find it in a 1 hour radius,  or more!  Its really easy to sit here, as moms who nursed or are no longer feeding formula and just tell moms to look harder.  We need a message from Drs on what to do when there IS NO FORMULA!  I did see one Dr near me say that 10+ months, try cows milk and increase solid food options. 

Editing to add that by not really addressing what should be used instead,  moms can't know the best alternative and are left to ask granny or the internet.  Moms need to hear- First, look for formula and don't be picky on the brand.  If you can't find any, use toddler formula.  Can't find that, goat milk, you can find it in the dairy section of biggerxgrocery stores.. 

I think no one wants to go on record with an alternative, because it will leave them open to lawsuits. "Well, you said this was FINE, and now my baby has xyz problem, so it's your fault".  

[sassenach]

My brother reacted to everything under the sun except for, you guessed it, evaporated milk and Karo syrup. My mom tried everything under the sun and gave it a shot based on my great grandmother's recommendation. 

It wouldn't be my go-to but I also wouldn't entirely reject the idea.