Help me navigate this family drama...

[bodiesmom]

I'm the oldest of three (younger brother and sister). At the beginning of the year my dad moved into a memory care home due to late stage dementia. On a recent visit, my mom told ds20 to go back into grandpa's barn to find anything he wanted to take for sentimental value. Ds20 is very close to his grandfather and spent a lengthy amount of time looking around. When he found the item he wanted, my mom happily gave it to him.

About a week later my brother was visiting mom when she mentioned in passing what ds20 chose as his sentimental item. My brother lost it and lashed out at my mom. Now, this brother is the "hot-head" of the family and is known for blaming everyone else for all his troubles. My mom has a long, long history of appeasing this brother to "keep the peace".  This brother has also previously been given two of the most coveted sentimental items. My sister and I have yet to choose anything. Needless to say there is a lot of dysfunction within my family that I've mostly been able to keep at arm's length (in part due to moving 2 states away). 

Mom contacted me last night saying she made a big mistake and asked me to ask ds20 to return the item. I expressed my immense anger over the request in as respectful of a manner as I could, and said that I would not ask ds20 to return the item. I made it clear that if they wanted the item back, they would have to ask him themselves.  Unfortunately, now that this dysfunction is reaching towards my young adult son, mama bear mode is swiftly kicking in (and I'm trying to reign it in).

I'm feeling like I need to give him a heads-up as to what is coming his way (which will no doubt include a guilt-trip and a load of excuses as to why my brother needs to be appeased). It is not my desire to tell him to return it nor to keep it, rather I just want to give him some lee-way to think through his reaction/response before responding to the request to return his sentimental item.  WWYD?

I'm running on very little sleep due to ruminating on this all night. My apologies if this doesn't make sense or if not enough details were given. I'll attempt to clarify as needed. 

 

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I’d tell him to keep it.  Frankly.

[Forget-Me-Not]

It is the height of rudeness to ask for the return of a gift. I think you were right to tell her you wouldn’t ask. I’d give him a heads up that they may call and make it clear he has no obligation to return it. If the item is valuable, he may want to secure it out of their reach. 

[Grace Hopper]

You’re a better woman than I am. I’d simply tell my son to keep it, no regrets. 
 

[stephanier.1765]

It was given freely and with love. Asking for something like that back is beyond the pale. I'd give him the heads up. He may decide to give it back for future family relations because otherwise it will be brought up at every family event. Ugh. But honestly, if it was me, I'd keep it.

[Catwoman]

I would tell my brother exactly what he could do with his childish demands.

There is no way I would have my son get involved in the drama, and he would absolutely be keeping that item.

[Faith-manor]

I am with Carol. He keeps it.

My aunt went through this with me. My grandmother repeatedly asked her what sentimental items she wanted from the house, and she kept refusing to answer. Grandma kept telling her she was doing a Swedish Death Cleaning (which side note, if that is what she called SDC then we would have been in HUGE trouble if she hadn't done, just wow grandma), and after two years of aunt being stubborn, grandma asked me and my cousin V the two oldest granddaughters. V wanted an antique light fixture that she adored, and an antique loveseat. I desperately wanted my grandmother's collection of King's Crown Ruby Thumbprint glassware. So she gave them to us. Eventually aunt found out and went bananas, just weeping epic meltdown. Her daughter V, then hauled all the way from Minnesota to Kentucky, those two big items to her mother only to when she arrived, have her mother say, "Well, I don't really have room for them" and decide she didn't want to keep them. I kept back one serving piece, a torte plate that grandma had gifted me first with a lovely handwritten letter. I boxed everything else up and drove it to Kentucky. When she opened the first box she said, "This isn't what I wanted. I thought you had the tea set. I wanted the tea set." Neither of us strangled her, and frankly, I think we deserve a prize for our restraint! 😉😁

Wisely uncle told her to NEVER bring up the drama again.

[Kassia]

I'd also have him keep it.  

 

[Grace Hopper]

Also, bodiesmom, you may want to just have a chat with your mom. If she had never mentioned anything in passing, brother wouldn’t have had a reason to react. But mostly to let her know you are a safe person for her (of course that’s only if you want to be). With your father in decline, she is possibly a prime candidate for elder abuse by this bully of a son. 

[freesia]

Good for you.  I would have had a hard time keeping my temper for sure, especially if brother had already gotten a sentimental piece.  Frankly, tbh, I did have an epic meltdown once (in the monkey house, 8 months pregnant at the zoo--I'm sure we were a sight to behold lol) over something like this with my mother.  She always tended to appease my brother and his wife.  He was a meltdown child (but not adult) and the habits for her stuck.  Do you know what? My epic meltdown seems to have resulted in my mother never pressuring me to appease my brother again.  I probably wouldn't recommend that approach, but would say continue to push back HARD.  Don't hide the fact that you are angry from your mother.  I would even tell my ds that if they contact him, tell them no or that he'll think about it.  The problem is the drama may taint it for him. 😞

[Annie G]

No matter how this particular incident is resolved, (and I think ds should be allowed to keep it), it’s time to talk to your mom about how their sentimental items will be distributed upon their passing.  Ideally it will be discussed with the siblings together and written down.  Without it, your brother is going to be a Big Problem when they’re gone. Even if you’re the executor he can annoy and harass you, and you having the right to decide how things are distributed is easier if you have some guidance re your folks’ wishes. 

[Loowit]

Your son is under no obligation to give it back, and I would tell him that.

Something similar happened in my family.  My grandfather gave my brother something sentimental/valuable.  My brother had it for several years before a cousin found out and threw a fit.  Cousin was partially raised by my grandparents and they gave him pretty much everything he wanted.  My grandparents asked my brother for the item back.  I really can't remember what happened, whether he gave it back or not, but it really left a strain in their relationship, especially with my grandmother who was the one who pushed the issue.

[fairfarmhand]

"Mother, you do realize that by giving in to brother or even by bringing this up to my son, you will likely alienate my son from you and his uncle. That was a gift that was freely given and it means quite a bit to him. You are basically telling my son that his uncle's drama and hissy fit is more important to you than my son's feelings. If that's how you want to be, then ok, But know that this will affect how my son views you as his grandmother and his uncle. And also, it will give him a level of regret about how he wanted to memorialize his grandfather. If that is the kind of grandmother that you want to be to your grandchildren, fine. Just know that bringing this up to my son will cause all of that. And keep in mind too that this will not only affect my son's feelings about you, but my feelings and my other children's too. "

[itsheresomewhere]

I would tell him to keep it without hesitation.  It is time for brother to grow up and get over himself.  I had something similar happen to me and it turned out relationship. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by itsheresomewhere

[freesia]

10 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

"Mother, you do realize that by giving in to brother or even by bringing this up to my son, you will likely alienate my son from you and his uncle. That was a gift that was freely given and it means quite a bit to him. You are basically telling my son that his uncle's drama and hissy fit is more important to you than my son's feelings. If that's how you want to be, then ok, But know that this will affect how my son views you as his grandmother and his uncle. And also, it will give him a level of regret about how he wanted to memorialize his grandfather. If that is the kind of grandmother that you want to be to your grandchildren, fine. Just know that bringing this up to my son will cause all of that. And keep in mind too that this will not only affect my son's feelings about you, but my feelings and my other children's too. "

This is excellent! I recommend this, too.

[I talk to the trees]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

"Mother, you do realize that by giving in to brother or even by bringing this up to my son, you will likely alienate my son from you and his uncle. That was a gift that was freely given and it means quite a bit to him. You are basically telling my son that his uncle's drama and hissy fit is more important to you than my son's feelings. If that's how you want to be, then ok, But know that this will affect how my son views you as his grandmother and his uncle. And also, it will give him a level of regret about how he wanted to memorialize his grandfather. If that is the kind of grandmother that you want to be to your grandchildren, fine. Just know that bringing this up to my son will cause all of that. And keep in mind too that this will not only affect my son's feelings about you, but my feelings and my other children's too. "

Well said!

[fraidycat]

I would tell mom/brother he/you already have x and y coveted items, so you all can go pound sand. 

[mmasc]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

"Mother, you do realize that by giving in to brother or even by bringing this up to my son, you will likely alienate my son from you and his uncle. That was a gift that was freely given and it means quite a bit to him. You are basically telling my son that his uncle's drama and hissy fit is more important to you than my son's feelings. If that's how you want to be, then ok, But know that this will affect how my son views you as his grandmother and his uncle. And also, it will give him a level of regret about how he wanted to memorialize his grandfather. If that is the kind of grandmother that you want to be to your grandchildren, fine. Just know that bringing this up to my son will cause all of that. And keep in mind too that this will not only affect my son's feelings about you, but my feelings and my other children's too. "

This^^^. Exactly. 

[saraha]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

"Mother, you do realize that by giving in to brother or even by bringing this up to my son, you will likely alienate my son from you and his uncle. That was a gift that was freely given and it means quite a bit to him. You are basically telling my son that his uncle's drama and hissy fit is more important to you than my son's feelings. If that's how you want to be, then ok, But know that this will affect how my son views you as his grandmother and his uncle. And also, it will give him a level of regret about how he wanted to memorialize his grandfather. If that is the kind of grandmother that you want to be to your grandchildren, fine. Just know that bringing this up to my son will cause all of that. And keep in mind too that this will not only affect my son's feelings about you, but my feelings and my other children's too. "

Wow that is fantastic. Taking notes over here.

[fraidycat]

1 hour ago, Annie G said:

No matter how this particular incident is resolved, (and I think ds should be allowed to keep it), it’s time to talk to your mom about how their sentimental items will be distributed upon their passing.  Ideally it will be discussed with the siblings together and written down.  Without it, your brother is going to be a Big Problem when they’re gone. Even if you’re the executor he can annoy and harass you, and you having the right to decide how things are distributed is easier if you have some guidance re your folks’ wishes. 

This is great advice. Several years ago, my parents held a family meeting when they were updating their wills. We were to speak for and agree to sentimental item distribution at that meeting. As new items came into my parents' possession, if any of us expressed desire to add or swap on our list, Mom would check with other siblings for agreement then update the list.

This was a very valuable piece of paper after my Dad passed and Mom was distributing his items, because I have one sibling who is very much like the OP's brother. The pre-agreed upon list saved tons of family drama and will again in the future.

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, freesia said:

Good for you.  I would have had a hard time keeping my temper for sure, especially if brother had already gotten a sentimental piece.  Frankly, tbh, I did have an epic meltdown once (in the monkey house, 8 months pregnant at the zoo--I'm sure we were a sight to behold lol) over something like this with my mother.  She always tended to appease my brother and his wife.  He was a meltdown child (but not adult) and the habits for her stuck.  Do you know what? My epic meltdown seems to have resulted in my mother never pressuring me to appease my brother again.  I probably wouldn't recommend that approach, but would say continue to push back HARD.  Don't hide the fact that you are angry from your mother.  I would even tell my ds that if they contact him, tell them no or that he'll think about it.  The problem is the drama may taint it for him. 😞

The appeaser often is clueless as to how that behavior affects EVERYONE. Sometimes it has to be spelled out in detail that the tantrum throwers bull crap is starting to stick to the appeaser. 

[happi duck]

Objects+grief make for difficulties.

Many (hugs)

[cuckoomamma]

I’d tell your son to keep it.

[bodiesmom]

Thank you EVERYONE for your input and sharing your stories. I sat and pondered the helpful advice given in this thread and realized that I needed to do everything I could to protect my ds20's memories of what was likely his last visit with grandpa. I just sent an email to my mom explaining that "I" am keeping this sentimental item and am not returning it. I asked her not to contact ds20 because I was making the decision for him. Initially I wanted to leave that decision up to ds20, but as a pp's mentioned/alluded to, regardless of the outcome his entire experience would be tainted. And I didn't want that. 

The minute I sent the email I felt an enormous weight lifted off my shoulders. Yes, my relationship with my brother is most likely damaged beyond repair (I can't help how he reacts to this) and my relationship with my mom is even more fractured than ever, but I'm oddly ok with that given the latest stunt they both tried to pull.  Hopefully with time and continued boundaries it can heal, though I'm not too hopeful about it at the moment. 

[bodiesmom]

3 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

"Mother, you do realize that by giving in to brother or even by bringing this up to my son, you will likely alienate my son from you and his uncle. That was a gift that was freely given and it means quite a bit to him. You are basically telling my son that his uncle's drama and hissy fit is more important to you than my son's feelings. If that's how you want to be, then ok, But know that this will affect how my son views you as his grandmother and his uncle. And also, it will give him a level of regret about how he wanted to memorialize his grandfather. If that is the kind of grandmother that you want to be to your grandchildren, fine. Just know that bringing this up to my son will cause all of that. And keep in mind too that this will not only affect my son's feelings about you, but my feelings and my other children's too. "

I totally used this except I tweaked it at the end to make it clear that there was no longer an option of them trying to get it returned. 

Thank you for this!

[bodiesmom]

4 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

Also, bodiesmom, you may want to just have a chat with your mom. If she had never mentioned anything in passing, brother wouldn’t have had a reason to react. But mostly to let her know you are a safe person for her (of course that’s only if you want to be). With your father in decline, she is possibly a prime candidate for elder abuse by this bully of a son. 

Thank you, GraceHopper, 

Unfortunately my mom is very complicit in this codependent relationship they have going on. Her parenting style was/is extremely dysfunctional and this current situation is par for the course in this toxic family culture.  

[bodiesmom]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

The appeaser often is clueless as to how that behavior affects EVERYONE. Sometimes it has to be spelled out in detail that the tantrum throwers bull crap is starting to stick to the appeaser. 

Very good point. This is what I've tried to explain to my mom for years. It's been spelled out and drawn out in great detail. She's not clueless, she's in denial. This lasted incident really struck a nerve with me because it involved my kiddo...I'm still so very angry with her. I'm not cutting her off, but boy do I really want to right now. Ugh. 

[bodiesmom]

4 hours ago, Annie G said:

No matter how this particular incident is resolved, (and I think ds should be allowed to keep it), it’s time to talk to your mom about how their sentimental items will be distributed upon their passing.  Ideally it will be discussed with the siblings together and written down.  Without it, your brother is going to be a Big Problem when they’re gone. Even if you’re the executor he can annoy and harass you, and you having the right to decide how things are distributed is easier if you have some guidance re your folks’ wishes. 

 

2 hours ago, fraidycat said:

This is great advice. Several years ago, my parents held a family meeting when they were updating their wills. We were to speak for and agree to sentimental item distribution at that meeting. As new items came into my parents' possession, if any of us expressed desire to add or swap on our list, Mom would check with other siblings for agreement then update the list.

This was a very valuable piece of paper after my Dad passed and Mom was distributing his items, because I have one sibling who is very much like the OP's brother. The pre-agreed upon list saved tons of family drama and will again in the future.

This is how healthy families do it. My mom insists on doing it "her way". She recently expressed how all three of us are going to have to "duke it out" for whatever is remaining after she passes. 🤬  I called her out on that but she paid me no attention. 

[Carol in Cal.]

36 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

Thank you EVERYONE for your input and sharing your stories. I sat and pondered the helpful advice given in this thread and realized that I needed to do everything I could to protect my ds20's memories of what was likely his last visit with grandpa. I just sent an email to my mom explaining that "I" am keeping this sentimental item and am not returning it. I asked her not to contact ds20 because I was making the decision for him. Initially I wanted to leave that decision up to ds20, but as a pp's mentioned/alluded to, regardless of the outcome his entire experience would be tainted. And I didn't want that. 

The minute I sent the email I felt an enormous weight lifted off my shoulders. Yes, my relationship with my brother is most likely damaged beyond repair (I can't help how he reacts to this) and my relationship with my mom is even more fractured than ever, but I'm oddly ok with that given the latest stunt they both tried to pull.  Hopefully with time and continued boundaries it can heal, though I'm not too hopeful about it at the moment. 

Good for  you!

[TechWife]

nm - I’m late to the party. 
Great job handling this OP. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by TechWife

[ScoutTN]

@bodiesmom Excellent job, mama-bear! 

[Catwoman]

56 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

Thank you EVERYONE for your input and sharing your stories. I sat and pondered the helpful advice given in this thread and realized that I needed to do everything I could to protect my ds20's memories of what was likely his last visit with grandpa. I just sent an email to my mom explaining that "I" am keeping this sentimental item and am not returning it. I asked her not to contact ds20 because I was making the decision for him. Initially I wanted to leave that decision up to ds20, but as a pp's mentioned/alluded to, regardless of the outcome his entire experience would be tainted. And I didn't want that. 

The minute I sent the email I felt an enormous weight lifted off my shoulders. Yes, my relationship with my brother is most likely damaged beyond repair (I can't help how he reacts to this) and my relationship with my mom is even more fractured than ever, but I'm oddly ok with that given the latest stunt they both tried to pull.  Hopefully with time and continued boundaries it can heal, though I'm not too hopeful about it at the moment. 

YAY FOR YOU!!!

I think you did exactly the right thing, and I think you were so smart to keep your son out of it!

If your brother has a problem with it, he can call you, and you can tell him to suck it up and deal with it.

You should be very proud of yourself!!!!

[fraidycat]

I know it had to be hard to draw that boundary. Great job on not appeasing the appeaser or the hissy fit thrower!

If you haven't already, I would probably still let DS know about what happened, because they may try to make an end-run around you and guilt him into returning it. So, give him a heads up about the boundary you have set.

[Tiberia]

1 hour ago, bodiesmom said:

 

This is how healthy families do it. My mom insists on doing it "her way". She recently expressed how all three of us are going to have to "duke it out" for whatever is remaining after she passes. 🤬  I called her out on that but she paid me no attention. 

In that case, I would probably tell mom that the other two can have all the sentimental items. I wouldn't play the game. Then if she wants to, she could designate some things especially for you. That might get her to listen to you. Or maybe not. 

I'm glad you're standing firm for DS on this one. 

[gardenmom5]

I'm very sorry.   I was surprised by how much relief I felt when my mother died - because I no longer worried about my brother manipulating her.  

Absolutely give your son a heads up, let him know your brother is manipulative, and your mother is a push-over.  I'd also tell him - no matter what woe-is-me tale they tell, he doesn't have to give it to them.  But be warned -just their attempts to take it from him will affect the sentimental value of it going forward.

 

 

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, bodiesmom said:

Thank you, GraceHopper, 

Unfortunately my mom is very complicit in this codependent relationship they have going on. Her parenting style was/is extremely dysfunctional and this current situation is par for the course in this toxic family culture.  

I am sorry to hear this BUT honestly not surprised. She will reap what she has sown. 
 

Good for you and the way you handled it. They’ll probably react poorly but that’s on them. I hope they don’t contact your son directly. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Grace Hopper

[gardenmom5]

5 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

Also, bodiesmom, you may want to just have a chat with your mom. If she had never mentioned anything in passing, brother wouldn’t have had a reason to react. But mostly to let her know you are a safe person for her (of course that’s only if you want to be). With your father in decline, she is possibly a prime candidate for elder abuse by this bully of a son. 

My grandmother was a narcissist.  My mother was incapable of standing up for herself, and only every sought to appease overbearing people.  She would often mention things in passing.  And if you didn't react the first time she said it, or the second, or fifth, or eighth - she'd repeat it again until you reacted.  I can only conclude - they were mentioned "on purpose" to give her a sense of power.

I'd presume the mother mentioned it on purpose.

OP - I would absolutely look into what protections you can provide for your mother against elder abuse by your brother.  It's a fine line - especially when the elderly victim isn't on board.  I wish I'd been able to get more resources to control my brother's contact with her.  I managed it at the end of her life - and I take satisfaction in her stress level was much declined.

[Kassia]

46 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

YAY FOR YOU!!!

I think you did exactly the right thing, and I think you were so smart to keep your son out of it!

If your brother has a problem with it, he can call you, and you can tell him to suck it up and deal with it.

You should be very proud of yourself!!!!

Yes to all of this!  

[bodiesmom]

1 hour ago, fraidycat said:

I know it had to be hard to draw that boundary. Great job on not appeasing the appeaser or the hissy fit thrower!

If you haven't already, I would probably still let DS know about what happened, because they may try to make an end-run around you and guilt him into returning it. So, give him a heads up about the boundary you have set.

Good point, fraidycat. Thankfully, he left the item here at home before returning to finish out his spring semester at college. 

[bodiesmom]

1 hour ago, Tiberia said:

In that case, I would probably tell mom that the other two can have all the sentimental items. I wouldn't play the game. Then if she wants to, she could designate some things especially for you. That might get her to listen to you. Or maybe not. 

I'm glad you're standing firm for DS on this one. 

Oddly enough, I’ve already told her something along these lines long ago. I didn’t want to fight over anything- it just isn’t worth it. And yet here I am involved in this “fight”…sigh….but it’s absolutely worth it. 

[KungFuPanda]

Too bad for the Uncle the item belongs to your son now.  He can feel his feelings, but he has no claim.  He sounds like the kind of person who, if given this item, will be mad about something else next week.  Appeasing him will accomplish nothing.

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Too bad for the Uncle the item belongs to your son now.  He can feel his feelings, but he has no claim.  He sounds like the kind of person who, if given this item, will be mad about something else next week.  Appeasing him will accomplish nothing.

I agree. He seems like the type who won't be satisfied until he gets Every. Last. Thing. And even then, he will probably feel cheated.

It's not worth trying to reason with a person like that.

[Annie G]

26 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

Oddly enough, I’ve already told her something along these lines long ago. I didn’t want to fight over anything- it just isn’t worth it. And yet here I am involved in this “fight”…sigh….but it’s absolutely worth it. 

I know a lot of people feel that way, and I respect and admire that position.  Things are not worth more than relationships.

When dh’s folks passed, his sister was completely unreasonable and didn’t even attempt to split things fairly. If she wanted them , she got them. He was willing to let it go until he realized that because of her narcissistic ways he wasn’t going to have any relationship w her anyway so why not fight for a few things. Three years later he’s glad he did. They still don’t speak, but they wouldn’t have even if he’d let her have everything. 
 

For instance, he really wanted a certain item of his dad’s. After they had words she agreed he could have it, but only with the promise that when dh passed it would go to HER son instead of our son. Um, that’s not how that works. 
She kept every family photo album. Refused to let dh take any photos w him in them because she can’t bear to take photos out of the albums their mom made. So he has about 3 pics from his childhood. 

 

Even normal families can go bonkers when parents pass.