Student Loan Forgiveness

[DawnM]

I was shocked with what colleges need to do to "sell" themselves.   When I went to a very nice private college, we had dorm rooms with 2 to a room, a shared bathroom down the hall, one dining hall, and one coffee shop (with pizza and salad bar, etc...) and that was it.   We didn't have a food court, fancy spaces, theaters, etc.....

My own kids had the options of fancy rooms with private rooms and bathrooms, 9 or more places to choose to eat on campus,. beautiful places to hang out, play games, etc....

Personally, I would rather have discounted tuition and room/board.

But when it comes to student debt, yes, someone has to pay for it.   It should be the person who took on the debt, they agreed to it.   That may be unpopular, but there ya go.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

This is me. I have some from my graduate school since I did take out most of my master’s degree in loans and some from my undergraduate and a graduate year that was highly recommended at the time but now ill advised.  The interest even on my federal loans has caused me to pay everything from 2006 and before and yet I still owe.

What I don’t really get is that for federal loans, there is an abundance of income based repayment programs with forgiveness after 20 years, 10 if you work for the government or a non profit.  I know public schools teachers who pay $0 a month because their incomes are so low and the rest will be forgiven after 10 years of payments. I know that program had a lot of problems but it sounds like the government has made strides to fix that.  I think the current income based program is reasonable.  
I don’t think the government can forgive private loans, and that’s where most of the people I know got into trouble. I still owe $30,000 in private loans and I graduated in 2004.  I was in a situation where on paper my parents had a lot of assets so I got no financial aid after my first year, but they didn’t have free money to help me with college.  I am heavily in debt. The private loans I will pay off; the federal loans are on a REPAYE plan and will probably be forgiven after a while.   
 

I think the current programs are reasonable.  I’d be more in favor of making them easier and more accessible combined with reducing or eliminating interest.

Until 18 months ago, these programs were completely toothless and no one had their loans forgiven or cancelled. I've spent well over 10 years of my working life making less than others b/c of public service pay scales. None of that mattered until 2007 when the rules changed (which just so happened to coincide with my child-bearing/raising years). Even then, not until the pandemic, did the REGULATIONS change to actually give meaning and hope to those who work in public service. Look up the stats, the public service loan forgiveness program was completely ineffective and with a change in administrative policy, it will be again.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Bambam said:

All the more reason we should educate our children to think through the consequences and to be financially responsible and to think critically. These people signed paperwork on these loans. There are online repayment calculators now.  When we took out student loans, there was no such thing, but we built our own using spreadsheets. Now I get that life can change, but you make sure you have a valid plan before you *voluntarily* sign any loan paperwork.  Things happen, and some might not be able to pay it back, but that should not be the majority. If someone is borrowing $200,000 to get a BA in education, that really isn't a good financial plan. If they are borrowing $10,000, that might be a reasonable plan.  Again, it is easy to research to figure out an estimated salary range, demand for that degree, etc. 
 

Yes, you are teaching your kids that. But not all kids have someone to teach them that, and certainly in years past they didn't. Often these are first of their family to go to college, or come from hard backgrounds. DH's father died when he was 4, his mother was mentally ill and on disability and had never given good advice in her life (her idea of financial planning was to consult a psychic), he had dropped out of highschool to work to keep the lights on and make sure his much younger brother didn't end up homeless and later got a GED. He is not alone, not by a longshot. And at that time, the constant refrain was that educational debt was "good debt" and an "investment". He had no background to understand that the people in the financial aid office were lying to him and manipulating him. You don't know what you don't know. 

[Kassia]

35 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I was shocked with what colleges need to do to "sell" themselves.   When I went to a very nice private college, we had dorm rooms with 2 to a room, a shared bathroom down the hall, one dining hall, and one coffee shop (with pizza and salad bar, etc...) and that was it.   We didn't have a food court, fancy spaces, theaters, etc.....

My own kids had the options of fancy rooms with private rooms and bathrooms, 9 or more places to choose to eat on campus,. beautiful places to hang out, play games, etc....

Personally, I would rather have discounted tuition and room/board.

 

I agree.  All the perks aren't necessary and we have no choice but to pay for them.  

 

23 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yes, you are teaching your kids that. But not all kids have someone to teach them that, and certainly in years past they didn't. Often these are first of their family to go to college, or come from hard backgrounds. ... You don't know what you don't know. 

This is what happened to me.  Neither of my parents knew anything about college expenses or finances and couldn't manage their own money.  They didn't explain that the cost of attendance at the schools I was considering had different amounts of loans involved.  So, instead of attending a state school, I attended a private school with a lot of student loans.  I honestly had no idea what I was committing to - I just saw that the total cost of attendance was similar between several schools.  

Even if I had known, I'm not sure I would have chosen a school with fewer loans.  I really didn't understand the value of money at all at the time (I was 17) and my parents didn't have the knowledge to guide me to make a smarter financial choice.  

Fortunately, I met DH at the expensive private school I attended and he is great with finances and taught me (and our kids) a lot.  🙂  All of our kids graduated (and youngest will graduate) college with no loans and quite a bit of money in the bank - they are very fortunate.  

[mommyoffive]

32 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yes, you are teaching your kids that. But not all kids have someone to teach them that, and certainly in years past they didn't. Often these are first of their family to go to college, or come from hard backgrounds. DH's father died when he was 4, his mother was mentally ill and on disability and had never given good advice in her life (her idea of financial planning was to consult a psychic), he had dropped out of highschool to work to keep the lights on and make sure his much younger brother didn't end up homeless and later got a GED. He is not alone, not by a longshot. And at that time, the constant refrain was that educational debt was "good debt" and an "investment". He had no background to understand that the people in the financial aid office were lying to him and manipulating him. You don't know what you don't know. 

Agreed.  I had little to no education about money growing up.  My mother was a single mom who wasn't good with money.  I read money magazines but at that time there was all the talk that everyone needed to go to college and the debt was nothing to worry about.  Everyone was in debt.  I ended up taking the worst route and picking a very expensive private college for no reason other than I wanted to leave home.  For sure regret.  I am sure I could have sought out scholarships, but didn't.  Also going to instate school. 

Also met dh at expensive college.

I also worked in the financial aid department of one of these online scammy colleges.  It was awful what we pressured and forced to do to students. Our jobs were threatened everyday if we didn't get x amount of students and if we didn't get them to sign up for max amount of loans and as many years as possible going to school.   I quit that job real fast once I realized what was going on.

[skimomma]

26 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yes, you are teaching your kids that. But not all kids have someone to teach them that, and certainly in years past they didn't. Often these are first of their family to go to college, or come from hard backgrounds. DH's father died when he was 4, his mother was mentally ill and on disability and had never given good advice in her life (her idea of financial planning was to consult a psychic), he had dropped out of highschool to work to keep the lights on and make sure his much younger brother didn't end up homeless and later got a GED. He is not alone, not by a longshot. And at that time, the constant refrain was that educational debt was "good debt" and an "investment". He had no background to understand that the people in the financial aid office were lying to him and manipulating him. You don't know what you don't know. 

A lot of what you have had to say in this thread, and others with similar thoughts, are helpful to answering my request to "help me feel less resentful."  These perspectives help me to understand why this may be a good thing for everyone (as a piece of widespread reform) even if there are very clear winners and losers.  I *still* feel a little resentful because I really wanted to go on vacation and have a car with AC during the years we were paying off debt.  And I really would love for dd to attend the college of her dreams.  But at least I can start to ponder more on the fact that loan forgiveness is going to be in part to correct the wrongs that have nothing to do with individual responsibility and it just happens to be an unfortunate side-effect that people who lived it up on vacation while I was scanning the paper for free things to do on my "holidays" or kids who are currently enjoying a luxury dorm at a school that is well outside of their realistic price-range also benefit.

It is so much easier for me to wrap my brain around food programs and health care.  Housing.  I am not resentful that I have to pay for my housing and someone else doesn't, even though I know there are some scammers that are benefitting.  I can wrap my head around how the sometimes "irresponsible behaviors" that might land someone in the position of needing this help are often symptoms of other things like generational poverty and lack of education.  And those things are *needs*.  I won't begrudge anyone that needs help getting what they need to live, even if some people take advantage.  College, to me, is a luxury.  I know many on here have pointed out that it is now a "need," but it really isn't.  One can find a job that pays a living wage without traditional, right-after-high-school, dorm-dwelling college or any college at all.  So, I think that makes it a harder pill to swallow.  Understanding more about how people find themselves in perpetual student loan debt is helpful.

FTR, I also had no idea what I was doing when I was signing up for financial aid.  But without parent co-signature, I could only take out the maximum federal loans, so my schooling choices were limited to schools that fit within that amount.  Which, like dd, meant I did not go to my first choice school.  It was actually my last choice and I chose it 100% for financial reasons.  If at 18 I thought there was a chance that my debt could vanish at some point, I'm sure I would have made a very different choice.  I also did not major in my preferred area of study because I knew I might very well not make enough to eat, let alone pay back my loans!

[1234]

50 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yes, you are teaching your kids that. But not all kids have someone to teach them that, and certainly in years past they didn't. Often these are first of their family to go to college, or come from hard backgrounds. DH's father died when he was 4, his mother was mentally ill and on disability and had never given good advice in her life (her idea of financial planning was to consult a psychic), he had dropped out of highschool to work to keep the lights on and make sure his much younger brother didn't end up homeless and later got a GED. He is not alone, not by a longshot. And at that time, the constant refrain was that educational debt was "good debt" and an "investment". He had no background to understand that the people in the financial aid office were lying to him and manipulating him. You don't know what you don't know. 

Yep! Neither of my parents went to college and were no help at all with their kids. It wasn’t their fault. My brother was luckier than my sister and was able to pay his off due to an inheritance his wife received. I don’t get along with my sister at all but she wasn’t  careless with her money and didn’t go somewhere crazy expensive. Some truly just can’t get out from under their student debt and I have zero issue with the government helping.

[shawthorne44]

This upsets me.     I lived extremely frugally while I was in college.    As in I sometimes went a day without eating because I didn't have any money.   I knew lots of people who lived large and graduated with lots of loans.   They then talked about how 'lucky' I was to not have any college loans.  

I remember hearing an idea for college loans to completely privatize it.  If someone is getting an Engineering degree and they've done well their first year they'd be a better risk than someone just starting college getting an Ivy league Art History degree.  

 

[ktgrok]

27 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I agree.  All the perks aren't necessary and we have no choice but to pay for them.  

 

This is what happened to me.  Neither of my parents knew anything about college expenses or finances and couldn't manage their own money.  They didn't explain that the cost of attendance at the schools I was considering had different amounts of loans involved.  So, instead of attending a state school, I attended a private school with a lot of student loans.  I honestly had no idea what I was committing to - I just saw that the total cost of attendance was similar between several schools.  

Even if I had known, I'm not sure I would have chosen a school with fewer loans.  I really didn't understand the value of money at all at the time (I was 17) and my parents didn't have the knowledge to guide me to make a smarter financial choice.  

Fortunately, I met DH at the expensive private school I attended and he is great with finances and taught me (and our kids) a lot.  🙂  All of our kids graduated (and youngest will graduate) college with no loans and quite a bit of money in the bank - they are very fortunate.  

Yeah, you make a good point that these are often KIDS who get roped into this LIFETIME of debt. 

5 minutes ago, skimomma said:

A lot of what you have had to say in this thread, and others with similar thoughts, are helpful to answering my request to "help me feel less resentful."  These perspectives help me to understand why this may be a good thing for everyone (as a piece of widespread reform) even if there are very clear winners and losers.  I *still* feel a little resentful because I really wanted to go on vacation and have a car with AC during the years we were paying off debt.  And I really would love for dd to attend the college of her dreams.  But at least I can start to ponder more on the fact that loan forgiveness is going to be in part to correct the wrongs that have nothing to do with individual responsibility and it just happens to be an unfortunate side-effect that people who lived it up on vacation while I was scanning the paper for free things to do on my "holidays" or kids who are currently enjoying a luxury dorm at a school that is well outside of their realistic price-range also benefit.

It is so much easier for me to wrap my brain around food programs and health care.  Housing.  I am not resentful that I have to pay for my housing and someone else doesn't, even though I know there are some scammers that are benefitting.  I can wrap my head around how the sometimes "irresponsible behaviors" that might land someone in the position of needing this help are often symptoms of other things like generational poverty and lack of education.  And those things are *needs*.  I won't begrudge anyone that needs help getting what they need to live, even if some people take advantage.  College, to me, is a luxury.  I know many on here have pointed out that it is now a "need," but it really isn't.  One can find a job that pays a living wage without traditional, right-after-high-school, dorm-dwelling college or any college at all.  So, I think that makes it a harder pill to swallow.  Understanding more about how people find themselves in perpetual student loan debt is helpful.

FTR, I also had no idea what I was doing when I was signing up for financial aid.  But without parent co-signature, I could only take out the maximum federal loans, so my schooling choices were limited to schools that fit within that amount.  Which, like dd, meant I did not go to my first choice school.  It was actually my last choice and I chose it 100% for financial reasons.  If at 18 I thought there was a chance that my debt could vanish at some point, I'm sure I would have made a very different choice.  I also did not major in my preferred area of study because I knew I might very well not make enough to eat, let alone pay back my loans!

Thank you for being so gracious. Seriously. 

Also, if it helps, my husband never lived in a dorm, and often was couch surfing for the free rent, just chipping in for utilities and groceries, and still has all that debt. I DID live in a dorm, and for a few years an off campus private dorm/apartment set up that was NICE. And I paid my loans off in a few years with $50 a month payments. Difference was I had parents who helped me figure out scholarships and loans, and who could help pay the minimal difference. I also went to school many years before him, when tuition was a LOT cheaper across the board, because he had to go back after saving up enough money to get his own transportation, get his GED, etc and I went a year early (so my first year was free, including books, as it counted as early enrollment/dual enrollment even though I lived on campus - my parents only had to pay for room and board). 

He worked harder, lived on a couch, and yet came out with exponentially more debt due to purposely bad advice from predatory "financial advisors" and "student advisors". So, although paying off loans for those that don't need it doesn't feel fair, that he had so much more debt than me isn't fair either, you know? And it doesn't seem fair that people who lucked out to be born to rich parents can have zero debt, or those who lucked out and were born smarter or with better advice have less or no debt. None of this is fair. The whole thing is stupid. Continuing to make people pay won't make it fair. It was never fair. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, shawthorne44 said:

This upsets me.     I lived extremely frugally while I was in college.    As in I sometimes went a day without eating because I didn't have any money.   I knew lots of people who lived large and graduated with lots of loans.   They then talked about how 'lucky' I was to not have any college loans.  

I remember hearing an idea for college loans to completely privatize it.  If someone is getting an Engineering degree and they've done well their first year they'd be a better risk than someone just starting college getting an Ivy league Art History degree.  

 

Well, given that those private loans come with credit card rate interest, you just end up making it worse. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Yes, you are teaching your kids that. But not all kids have someone to teach them that, and certainly in years past they didn't. Often these are first of their family to go to college, or come from hard backgrounds. DH's father died when he was 4, his mother was mentally ill and on disability and had never given good advice in her life (her idea of financial planning was to consult a psychic), he had dropped out of highschool to work to keep the lights on and make sure his much younger brother didn't end up homeless and later got a GED. He is not alone, not by a longshot. And at that time, the constant refrain was that educational debt was "good debt" and an "investment". He had no background to understand that the people in the financial aid office were lying to him and manipulating him. You don't know what you don't know. 

Not even that, we have adult people with children who don’t read the IRS mail that comes directly to their homes…today! Relying on adult people to educate their kids on college financing seems a recipe for disaster/inequality.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sneezyone

[BakersDozen]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

In the 1970’s and early 1980’s it was totally possible for a kid working 20 hours a week on minimum wage to pay for room, board, books, and in-state tuition at most public universities. These days that amount will rarely pay for community college,

I feel (and have seen with my older 5 dc) that while costs have risen, so have options and resources for securing/financing higher education that those in the 70s, 80s and even 90s did not have. Sites such as Modern States offer CLEP funding. Community colleges have programs such as the Promise Program (local cc) which reimburses tuition, books and fees if a student completes the program in 2 years. It's a fantastic endeavor and has great results! There are so many ways to pursue higher ed without signing for astronomical student loans (barring, perhaps, medical degrees, etc.). I tell my dc how lucky they are to be going through school in this day and age as these opportunities were not there when I was in college. I would rather see a big push to promote these options than a push to forgive loans.

As one who paid off my student loan by babysitting, I cringe at the idea of loan forgiveness. IMO, our society has been clearly shown that personal debt is not one's personal responsibility in the end whether that be a mortgage, student loans, or not preparing for smaller medical bills (recent news about amounts of $500 or less not being reported to credit bureaus). Barring serious emergency and true inability to pay debt, I guess I think folks should pay for what they buy/borrow. Forgiving student loans could be just another step in removing responsibility instead of working to reestablish the need for careful consideration before borrowing as well as the understanding that no one else is going to bail someone out - pay the debt or don't take the funds.

[teachermom2834]

Those people that lived large and extravagant with all those extra loans generally have private loans which will not be included in any federal loan forgiveness.  
 

The barista with a undergrad in sociology and a $200,000 loan bill from a fancy private college and exotic spring breaks did not do it on federal loans that will be forgiven. 
 

I’m not in favor of general loan forgiveness so I’m not saying anyone should be, but I think a lot of the most egregious stories that upset people aren’t even the type of loans that will be forgiven. Just in case that makes anyone feel better. I realize it probably doesn’t. 

[Kassia]

24 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

This upsets me.     I lived extremely frugally while I was in college.    As in I sometimes went a day without eating because I didn't have any money.   I knew lots of people who lived large and graduated with lots of loans.   They then talked about how 'lucky' I was to not have any college loans.  
 

 

This is why there doesn't seem to be a fair solution.  😞  At least not one I can think of.  

[Kassia]

Just now, teachermom2834 said:

Those people that lived large and extravagant with all those extra loans generally have private loans which will not be included in any federal loan forgiveness.  
 

The barista with a undergrad in sociology and a $200,000 loan bill from a fancy private college and exotic spring breaks did not do it on federal loans that will be forgiven. 
 

I’m not in favor of general loan forgiveness so I’m not saying anyone should be, but I think a lot of the most egregious stories that upset people aren’t even the type of loans that will be forgiven. Just in case that makes anyone feel better. I realize it probably doesn’t. 

I didn't realize this...thank you for sharing.

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, Kassia said:

I didn't realize this...thank you for sharing.

Maybe I’m wrong but I didn’t think the federal government could forgive private loans? Isn’t the current student loan pause only on federal loans? I’m sure someone will tell me if I am wrong. It surely is possible! 

[BakersDozen]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

You don't know what you don't know. 

I didn't quote your whole post but am responding to it: I also was first in my family to attend college and my parents were absolutely not involved. They knew nothing and as for money, well, you all know about my mom and my dad was so bad with finances the IRS came after him. It was horrible. I figured out college including financing it on my own and how to take out a loan and prepare to pay it back. Yes, I know not everyone can or will do that but my point is whose responsibility is it to read fine print and research before buying whether it be higher education, housing, vehicles, or whatever? I'm not for forgiving student loans but I am 100% for a huge, huge push to educate as to options for financing college as well as the message that debt is one's personal responsibility. Surely there must be a way to promote that?

I do feel for those who have no support or help from parents - I'm not talking about parents paying for college but being involved and helping their dc navigate the process. I've been there, done that, and it was not easy. But it was also an excellent growing-up process for me to figure all of that out and, upon graduating, realize that this debt was there and it was my job to pay it back. That experience, more than anything else I'd read or been told, was of tremendous benefit as far as budgeting and saving (and determining to never have loan debt again!).

I have a house full of kids visiting so if what I type doesn't make sense it's because my house sounds like The Chipmunks X 10. 🙂

[skimomma]

33 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

He worked harder, lived on a couch, and yet came out with exponentially more debt due to purposely bad advice from predatory "financial advisors" and "student advisors". So, although paying off loans for those that don't need it doesn't feel fair, that he had so much more debt than me isn't fair either, you know? And it doesn't seem fair that people who lucked out to be born to rich parents can have zero debt, or those who lucked out and were born smarter or with better advice have less or no debt. None of this is fair. The whole thing is stupid. Continuing to make people pay won't make it fair. It was never fair. 

That is not fair.  And if I dig deeper, part of the reason I feel resentful for not being able to go to the college of my choice, not being able to major in what I truly wanted to, and the sacrifices we made to pay off our loans are really part of the whole unfairness of access to higher education in general.  Just like anything else, when you start lining people up based on their wealth and privilege, the people not on the top of the ladder start bickering with each other trying not to end up on the bottom.  It distracts us from the real reasons the system is broken.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

This is what happened to me.  Neither of my parents knew anything about college expenses or finances and couldn't manage their own money.  They didn't explain that the cost of attendance at the schools I was considering had different amounts of loans involved.  So, instead of attending a state school, I attended a private school with a lot of student loans.  I honestly had no idea what I was committing to - I just saw that the total cost of attendance was similar between several schools. 

This. It's easy to be financially savvy when your family has enough money that financial planning is a normal part of life. For families who live paycheck to paycheck, often the only number they look at is the upfront cost, not the long term cost, because who knows what's going to happen even a few months from now. Thinking about what the ultimate cost might be over the next 10-20 years for something you need right now is just not something that's going to cross the mind of many 17-18 year olds. And people whose bank accounts have never held more than a month's worth of expenses often have no real idea of the magnitude of the difference between payments on a $10K loan vs $60K — both of those figures fall into the same "more money than I've ever seen" category. 

I think the idea that people should basically be punished for life because they made an ignorant financial decision as a teenager — a decision they were often encouraged, if not outright coerced, into making by the people who were supposed to be advising them — is just one of the many many ways our economic system is set up to punish poor people while allowing those who had better resources to begin with (better financial resources, more involved parenting, better education, higher IQ, etc.) to feel like they deserve what they have and other people don't. I paid off my own loans, I'm incredibly grateful to be in a place where I can ensure that my kids will never have any educational debt, and I'm totally in favor of significant loan forgiveness (whether that's a fixed amount for everyone, erasure of accumulated interest, etc.) as well as a program that would provide free tuition at any in-state college. We give huge corporations billions in subsidies and bailouts, but God forbid we help young people who are drowning in debt to get a leg up in a system that is stacked against them. 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Corraleno
typos

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Yes, you are teaching your kids that. But not all kids have someone to teach them that, and certainly in years past they didn't. Often these are first of their family to go to college, or come from hard backgrounds. DH's father died when he was 4, his mother was mentally ill and on disability and had never given good advice in her life (her idea of financial planning was to consult a psychic), he had dropped out of highschool to work to keep the lights on and make sure his much younger brother didn't end up homeless and later got a GED. He is not alone, not by a longshot. And at that time, the constant refrain was that educational debt was "good debt" and an "investment". He had no background to understand that the people in the financial aid office were lying to him and manipulating him. You don't know what you don't know. 

My parents were both college graduates, however, my mom was poor and financial aid covered almost all of it(plus this was the 1970s when it was still affordable). My dad came from a wealthy family and they paid his way.  They had no idea how to advise me about loans, and I never had any advice. 

[ktgrok]

40 minutes ago, BakersDozen said:

I feel (and have seen with my older 5 dc) that while costs have risen, so have options and resources for securing/financing higher education that those in the 70s, 80s and even 90s did not have. Sites such as Modern States offer CLEP funding. Community colleges have programs such as the Promise Program (local cc) which reimburses tuition, books and fees if a student completes the program in 2 years. It's a fantastic endeavor and has great results! There are so many ways to pursue higher ed without signing for astronomical student loans (barring, perhaps, medical degrees, etc.). I tell my dc how lucky they are to be going through school in this day and age as these opportunities were not there when I was in college. I would rather see a big push to promote these options than a push to forgive loans.

As one who paid off my student loan by babysitting, I cringe at the idea of loan forgiveness. IMO, our society has been clearly shown that personal debt is not one's personal responsibility in the end whether that be a mortgage, student loans, or not preparing for smaller medical bills (recent news about amounts of $500 or less not being reported to credit bureaus). Barring serious emergency and true inability to pay debt, I guess I think folks should pay for what they buy/borrow. Forgiving student loans could be just another step in removing responsibility instead of working to reestablish the need for careful consideration before borrowing as well as the understanding that no one else is going to bail someone out - pay the debt or don't take the funds.

That's great to say now, but do you really feel the appropriate consequence for this mistake is a lifetime of payments? I paid my loans off too, but that doesn't mean I'm in favor of never ending consequences for those that made a bad choice that young. Not for the enrichment of others. 

24 minutes ago, skimomma said:

That is not fair.  And if I dig deeper, part of the reason I feel resentful for not being able to go to the college of my choice, not being able to major in what I truly wanted to, and the sacrifices we made to pay off our loans are really part of the whole unfairness of access to higher education in general.  Just like anything else, when you start lining people up based on their wealth and privilege, the people not on the top of the ladder start bickering with each other trying not to end up on the bottom.  It distracts us from the real reasons the system is broken.

This. 

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Teachers have loan forgiveness programs at the Federal and State level. 

e.g. 4 Loan Forgiveness Programs for Teachers https://studentaid.gov/articles/teacher-loan-forgiveness-options/

”Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) Program 

Forgives the remaining balance on your Federal Direct Loans after 120 qualifying payments (estimated over 10 years).

• Unlike other programs, PSLF does not require you teach at a low-income public school but only requires that you work for qualifying employer. This includes government organizations at any level (U.S. federal, state, local, or tribal), not-for-profit organizations that are tax-exempt under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, or other not-for-profit organizations that provide certain types of qualifying public services.”

Okay, that’s something I did not know about the one dang example I randomly went with, lol. Though there do seem to be a lot of specifics that must be met.  I am curious about what those payments might look like for 10 years, bringing people close to the mid-30s I mentioned.(Advanced degrees are considered pretty important for teachers, or at least were when my cousins were in school over a decade after me.)

It goes beyond just teachers. Though I do hope this helps as many as possible.

 

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Teachers have loan forgiveness programs at the Federal and State level. 

e.g. 4 Loan Forgiveness Programs for Teachers https://studentaid.gov/articles/teacher-loan-forgiveness-options/

”Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) Program 

Forgives the remaining balance on your Federal Direct Loans after 120 qualifying payments (estimated over 10 years).

• Unlike other programs, PSLF does not require you teach at a low-income public school but only requires that you work for qualifying employer. This includes government organizations at any level (U.S. federal, state, local, or tribal), not-for-profit organizations that are tax-exempt under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, or other not-for-profit organizations that provide certain types of qualifying public services.”

Until 18 months ago...95%+ of applications for PSLF were denied. That's not a typo. People who chose public service over financial gain were denied forgiveness 9/10 times.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/public-service-student-loan-forgiveness-applicants-rejected-college-debt

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/04/1051463060/student-loan-forgiveness-overhaul-fedloan-public-service-borrowers

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

Regarding teachers getting loan forgiveness - that is true in theory, but in actuality as of last year 98% of public service workers who applied for forgiveness through that policy were denied due to the complicated red tape around it. 

Only a few months ago was there a move to streamline the program. 

so yeah, teachers too. 

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/money/public-service-loan-forgiveness-student-loan-debt/291-84ab9482-147c-4046-8c56-ede4f0c3bc05

Edited March 30, 2022 by ktgrok

[Hilltopmom]

23 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Regarding teachers getting loan forgiveness - that is true in theory, but in actuality as of last year 98% of public service workers who applied for forgiveness through that policy were denied due to the complicated red tape around it. 

Only a few months ago was there a move to streamline the program. 

so yeah, teachers too. 

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/money/public-service-loan-forgiveness-student-loan-debt/291-84ab9482-147c-4046-8c56-ede4f0c3bc05

Most of my younger teacher friends tried multiple times and only 1-2 have gotten it approved. It seems they need to be inner city teachers or specifically special Ed in a title one school for so many years, etc

I graduated long before loan forgiveness programs existed and we were able to be live in caretakers for an elderly woman for a few years to pay them down, then bought a tiny off grid home to live in while we paid off the rest.  Obviously not set ups everyone can score.

 

[rebot]

I would say that people like me are one reason why there shouldn't be loan forgiveness and perhaps low interest rates. I graduated in 2005. I still have ~$24,000 in loans. I could pay it off in full but I managed to lock in interest at around 1.8% (I don't remember exactly and it is currently at 0% for covid relief). Currently, I make more by investing that money than the cost of my monthly payment on the loan. In my current situation, it doesn't make sense for me to pay it off. What if they decide to forgive loans? How do they decide who to forgive? Do they forgive me? It's been 17 years and I still don't have it paid off. Honestly, if they decide to forgive loans I'm not going to say no even though I don't need forgiveness and I'm betting no one else would either. That's the problem. A bunch of people that have already paid off their loans or chose not to go to college gets stuck paying. I definitely think there needs to be changes made. I don't know what those changes should be but I think whatever changes should be going forward not forgiving past loans.

Edited March 30, 2022 by rebot
clarity

[Melissa Louise]

Here (AU) we pay a higher education charge. It can be paid up front for a discount, or deferred to be paid through the tax system later.

It is low interest, and payments kick in when you earn 48k+ annually. 

Most people pay their HECs debt back relatively quickly. If you never earn 48k you won't. The debt currently dies when you do, though conservative govts would love to get away with the debt being inheritable. 

Different degrees cost different amounts, and some attract subsidies, or Commonwealth supported places, which make the charges lower. 

If you are going to make students pay for tertiary education, it's not a bad system. 

 

[BusyMom5]

I have lots of mixed thoughts as well, but I don't support loan forgiveness because I do not think its fair.  I didn't finish bc I didn't want to take out loans- I took a break and never went back.  We have always been very frugal.  Others took it slow and went part time for years, so they could pay it as they go.  

I have spent the last 4 years researching ways to get college cheaper bc we have so many kids.  I've shared my tips with others who ask..... then go ahead and pay big $$ plus take out loans bc their kids want to go to s specific school.  Meanwhile I'm over here telling mine that money is a big factor, making them spend hours doing test prep and filling out scholarship forms.  They are taking DE courses in high school and trying to shave a year off of the time they are in college.  I do think we need to do a better job teaching personal finance.... but the cost of attendance is right there on the website!  You can simply ask Google what salary for any job in your area is.  How much easier can it possibly be?????

Right now I know one who is going to UofOut of State, no financial aid at all.  My state offers her free CC for 2 years.  She could have lived at home for at least the first year free, plus free CC close to her home.  Transfers to our UofState with $4500yr transfer scholarship (assuming good grades only, no ACT necessary for transfer scholarship), and gotten an apartment.   It would save THOUSANDS  of dollars- more than a car. $40K+ for first year in dorm, food plan, tuition.  Then she would get $4500 off on tuition at our state school the remaining 3 years- $13,500,not to mention in state tuition savings.  Not a first generation college kid, either.   And her parents are frugal... but she threw a fit when they mentioned the cheaper plan option I figured out for them.  She WANTS that college experience.   Its a difference of about $100k for that experience!  

Seeing cases like this makes me feel like there is a lot of entitlement going on.  

Where I live,  lots try the CC bc its free.  Some ho on, some decide college isn't for them. 

[Bootsie]

7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Again, many have already paid for their degree, what they are paying on now is interest. 

And society, those college educated and those not, benefits from an educated society. 

And those who want debt forgiveness also want your kids to have tuition free or debt free college as well. 

How have these people paid for their degree an now paying on interest?  If there is no principal outstanding, there would be no interest to be paid.  

It would be great for kids to have tuition free college, but until professors and janitors are willing to work for free, the utility company is willing to provide electricity for free, the computer software companies are willing to donate their software for free, and many others are willing to work for free, then someone is going to have to pay for the resources that are used to provide a college education.  While society benefits from educated citizens, economic research points to the majority of the benefits that accrue to an education at the college level are private, and not public, benefits.  

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

How have these people paid for their degree an now paying on interest?  If there is no principal outstanding, there would be no interest to be paid.  

It would be great for kids to have tuition free college, but until professors and janitors are willing to work for free, the utility company is willing to provide electricity for free, the computer software companies are willing to donate their software for free, and many others are willing to work for free, then someone is going to have to pay for the resources that are used to provide a college education.  While society benefits from educated citizens, economic research points to the majority of the benefits that accrue to an education at the college level are private, and not public, benefits.  

As I’m sure you’re aware, the original dollar value of the principal has been paid, not the present value which includes compound interest. It’s worth considering why the feds are charging student borrowers 2x-3x the fed rate for loans that benefit the nation as a whole.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

I have lots of mixed thoughts as well, but I don't support loan forgiveness because I do not think its fair.  I didn't finish bc I didn't want to take out loans- I took a break and never went back.  We have always been very frugal.  Others took it slow and went part time for years, so they could pay it as they go.  

I have spent the last 4 years researching ways to get college cheaper bc we have so many kids.  I've shared my tips with others who ask..... then go ahead and pay big $$ plus take out loans bc their kids want to go to s specific school.  Meanwhile I'm over here telling mine that money is a big factor, making them spend hours doing test prep and filling out scholarship forms.  They are taking DE courses in high school and trying to shave a year off of the time they are in college.  I do think we need to do a better job teaching personal finance.... but the cost of attendance is right there on the website!  You can simply ask Google what salary for any job in your area is.  How much easier can it possibly be?????

Right now I know one who is going to UofOut of State, no financial aid at all.  My state offers her free CC for 2 years.  She could have lived at home for at least the first year free, plus free CC close to her home.  Transfers to our UofState with $4500yr transfer scholarship (assuming good grades only, no ACT necessary for transfer scholarship), and gotten an apartment.   It would save THOUSANDS  of dollars- more than a car. $40K+ for first year in dorm, food plan, tuition.  Then she would get $4500 off on tuition at our state school the remaining 3 years- $13,500,not to mention in state tuition savings.  Not a first generation college kid, either.   And her parents are frugal... but she threw a fit when they mentioned the cheaper plan option I figured out for them.  She WANTS that college experience.   Its a difference of about $100k for that experience!  

Seeing cases like this makes me feel like there is a lot of entitlement going on.  

Where I live,  lots try the CC bc its free.  Some ho on, some decide college isn't for them. 

Graduation rates for students who attend CC are significantly lower than for those who attend four year schools, especially in-residence. The learning community itself is a significant benefit, especially for first-gen and low-income students.

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

As I’m sure you’re aware, the original dollar value of the principal has been paid, not the present value which includes compound interest. It’s worth considering why the feds are charging student borrowers 2x-3x the fed rate for loans that benefit the nation as a whole.

I am not sure what the boded means.  If someone borrows $10,000, yes they will pay more than $10,000 total dollars back if there is any interest, or rental price, on the money.  

If I purchase a CD, put money in a savings account, or buy a bond, the other party is borrowing money from me.  If I put $10,000 in a savings account (and the bank is paying interest to rent my money), no one expects that when then have given me back $10,000 that they have paid their obligation--they also owe me the compound interest.

If the "fed rate" you are mentioning is the Federal Funds rate, that is a private rate set between banks.  Banks have better credit ratings than most private borrowers, the bank has collateral, and those are overnight loans--so the risk profile is very different.  

[Sneezyone]

22 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am not sure what the boded means.  If someone borrows $10,000, yes they will pay more than $10,000 total dollars back if there is any interest, or rental price, on the money.  

If I purchase a CD, put money in a savings account, or buy a bond, the other party is borrowing money from me.  If I put $10,000 in a savings account (and the bank is paying interest to rent my money), no one expects that when then have given me back $10,000 that they have paid their obligation--they also owe me the compound interest.

If the "fed rate" you are mentioning is the Federal Funds rate, that is a private rate set between banks.  Banks have better credit ratings than most private borrowers, the bank has collateral, and those are overnight loans--so the risk profile is very different.  

Again, I get that. And, clearly you do know what I mean. However, it’s worth considering why THE GOVERNMENT is charging citizens 2-3x the prime rate for the privilege of educating themselves and earning more money (which they then use to pay more taxes). I’m not sure student loan borrowers have cost (are a bigger risk) the fed more than Enron and the S&Ls, etc., especially since the debts can’t be discharged in bankruptcy, but ok.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

6 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

This upsets me.     I lived extremely frugally while I was in college.    As in I sometimes went a day without eating because I didn't have any money.   I knew lots of people who lived large and graduated with lots of loans.   They then talked about how 'lucky' I was to not have any college loans.  

I remember hearing an idea for college loans to completely privatize it.  If someone is getting an Engineering degree and they've done well their first year they'd be a better risk than someone just starting college getting an Ivy league Art History degree.  

 

Well, now you know someone who didn’t live large, didn’t go on vacations, didn’t eat well (no meal plan), graduated with the federal max and didn’t get an art history degree. I chose the public sector.

[Bootsie]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Again, I get that. And, clearly you do know what I mean. However, it’s worth considering why THE GOVERNMENT is charging citizens 2-3x the prime rate for the privilege of educating themselves and earning more money (which they then use to pay more taxes). I’m not sure student loan borrowers have cost (are a bigger risk) the fed more than Enron and the S&Ls, etc., especially since the debts can’t be discharged in bankruptcy, but ok.

The PRESENT VALUE would be the amount at the beginning of a loan.  If you borrow $10,000 which you will pay 5% interest for 10 years, the $10,000 will be the PRESENT VALUE.  So, I do not know what you mean by "present value which includes compound interest".  

The Federal Reserve does not lend to students or Enron, so I am not sure I am following what you are saying.  But, the business customers who are receiving prime rate loans from banks (which are few and far between) are, on average, must lower risk than private individuals who are borrowing from a bank for education purposes for which the institution has no collateral.  Most businesses pay a rate higher than prime, even when they have substantial collateral.  One of the main differences is that a business borrows money to buy an oven and decides not to use the oven (and not pay the loan back) the bank can repossess the oven.  A person borrows money to go to school and decides not to go to class, not study, doesn't pass, or graduates and then decides not to work because they would rather stay home and educate their children, the bank can't say "pay or we will repossess your education"--and the bank 

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

The PRESENT VALUE would be the amount at the beginning of a loan.  If you borrow $10,000 which you will pay 5% interest for 10 years, the $10,000 will be the PRESENT VALUE.  So, I do not know what you mean by "present value which includes compound interest".  

The Federal Reserve does not lend to students or Enron, so I am not sure I am following what you are saying.  But, the business customers who are receiving prime rate loans from banks (which are few and far between) are, on average, must lower risk than private individuals who are borrowing from a bank for education purposes for which the institution has no collateral.  Most businesses pay a rate higher than prime, even when they have substantial collateral.  One of the main differences is that a business borrows money to buy an oven and decides not to use the oven (and not pay the loan back) the bank can repossess the oven.  A person borrows money to go to school and decides not to go to class, not study, doesn't pass, or graduates and then decides not to work because they would rather stay home and educate their children, the bank can't say "pay or we will repossess your education"--and the bank 

Whatevs. I’m not an economist or CPA. Don’t intend to be. You understood my point plenty fine. If a whole bank collapses, which they do and have, that’s a huge economic shock nationally. It might even cause a recession, and has. Student loans are an investment in people who, by and large, repay these debts with more fidelity than businesses (which routinely fail and can discharge their debts, both those backed by collateral and those that aren’t). There is no discharge option for student loans, except death or permanent disability. Unless/until businesses, heck even credit card debt (which is also unsecured) are subject  to the same provisions, it’s just a way to penalize low-income/independent student borrowers.

[Bootsie]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Whatevs. I’m not an economist or CPA. Don’t intend to be. You understood my point plenty fine. If a whole bank collapses, which they do and have, that’s a huge economic shock nationally. It might even cause a recession, and has. Student loans are an investment in people who, by and large, repay these debts with more fidelity than businesses (which routinely fail and can discharge their debts, both those backed by collateral and those that aren’t). There is no discharge option for student loans, except death or permanent disability. Unless/until businesses, heck even credit card debt (which is also unsecured) are subject  to the same provisions, it’s just a way to penalize low-income/independent student borrowers.

If student loan debt could be discharged in the same way that credit card debt is, then it would make sense for student loan debt to have the same interest rate as other non-collateralized debt.  Having student loan debt interest at the level of credit card interest rates would not be popular with many.  

Is there evidence that people pay back student loan debt with more fidelity than businesses?  I have not seen evidence of that. National Student Loan Default Rate [2022]: Delinquency Data (educationdata.org)states that 11% of new graduates default within 1 year--I don't know of any bank lending to businesses with anywhere near that high of a default rate.  

[Lecka]

My sister is someone who is really against forgiveness, because she didn’t go back to school for a degree in her 30s in a field she was interested in, for cost reasons.

I just don’t agree, I think the benefits outweigh the harms if their is enough money in the budget.

There are things I think are more important in the budget, it’s not a top priority to me.

But I’m for it rather than against it.

I just think it could help a lot of people. 
 

My husband is against it also, though.  He says what about people who didn’t even go to college who are worse off than a college graduate, and why do they deserve more help.

Again I hope there would be enough money in the budget to help people who didn’t attend college, as well.

Really though my top budget concerns are not in this area, I think there are more important things.

When people say “the money is there in the budget,” if that’s true I would be in favor.

But I do not really know what the right amount is for the budget or what I would rank higher or lower — I do know there are many things I would rank higher, though.  
 

Really I think I am just okay with some “bad actors” also receiving help because I think a lot of people would be helped that I would not think were “bad actors.”  

[Sneezyone]

29 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

If student loan debt could be discharged in the same way that credit card debt is, then it would make sense for student loan debt to have the same interest rate as other non-collateralized debt.  Having student loan debt interest at the level of credit card interest rates would not be popular with many.  

Is there evidence that people pay back student loan debt with more fidelity than businesses?  I have not seen evidence of that. National Student Loan Default Rate [2022]: Delinquency Data (educationdata.org)states that 11% of new graduates default within 1 year--I don't know of any bank lending to businesses with anywhere near that high of a default rate.  

Let’s be clear, default rates for CC students and the for profit colleges are significantly higher than four-year institutions. Even so, the default rates are essentially meaningless as a measure of risk because, again, the debts cannot be discharged and tax refunds and pay, even social security payments can be and are garnished to pay the debts. These aren’t, in fact, unsecured, they’re secured by any future earnings or taxable income until death. https://hechingerreport.org/student-loan-default-rates-inch-down-as-for-profit-sector-contracts/

Edited March 31, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Meriwether]

9 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Again, many have already paid for their degree, what they are paying on now is interest. 

 

When we bought our first house, we went in at closing to sign papers. We had to sign papers letting us know that we would be paying around $240,000 for our $72,000 home if we took the whole 30 years to pay it off. I determined at that moment I wasn't going to be paying on that house any longer than I had to. We got pregnant earlier than planned (which meant I had to pay back some student loans that I otherwise wouldn't have had to!) or we would have paid off that house in 4 years. I'm not sure how much debt my husband graduated with, but we were still paying some when we got married. Not too much because he paid over half of his take home pay on it each month to avoid the interest payments.

A hundred thousand dollars in debt could easily be over $300,000 in repayments if the principle isn't paid down quickly. Initial payments are almost all interest. If the interest for the loan is high, it would probably be worth getting a second mortgage to get a lower rate.

[SKL]

Right there with you.  I was budgeting to the penny for years ... pb&j was a huge chunk of my diet ... I even drove a certain speed and braked a certain way to reduce gas mileage.  I always shared housing kuz no way could I afford modest rent on my own.  I had so much anxiety over keeping jobs that were killing me rather than fail to pay my bills.  And I was the butt of many jokes thanks to my frugality.

Not saying I'd wish all that on others.  I do think the cost of education is way inflated and I am not against helping folks get an education.  But if we're going to do that, why not provide a subsidy that can more fairly benefit a broader range of people?  Or better yet, address the root cause - the price of a relatively basic adult education.

It isn't only unfair to people like me ... it's even more unfair to those who decided not to go to college because they were afraid of the debt.

[SKL]

As far as good financial management ... I am not a stupid person, but I didn't understand how much I'd have to earn in order to pay off my student loans, until I was at least a year into my grad school program.  (My undergrad loans were only $10,000 in total, but grad school added $75,000 on top of that by graduation.)  Well, part of it was that my scholarship went down while the tuition went up.  But part of it was that I just didn't understand finance.  I could define deferred / capitalized interest etc., but I didn't see the practical side of things.  There is just no comparison between paying college campus living expenses vs. living as one of 8 people in my folks' house.  And I had no frame of reference.  It's not like I could do an internet search or poll my uneducated rural neighbors about these things.

FTR I did pay those loans off, early, though not without some really really lean years.  I think they've improved payment schedules now so that recent graduates can pay less while they're building their career.  My payments were highest when I first graduated.  I had to seek forbearance for some months, of which I was ashamed, but I never thought of dumping my debt on society.  That said, I think there are reasonable things we could do to make it easier for young people.

I paid a lot of taxes while I was paying my student loans.  I pay a heck of a lot more taxes now.  I don't think it's horrible for some of that money to actually benefit the people who pay in.

[frogger]

I care less about fairness (life is never fair) than I do bad incentives and the potential to just exacerbate the problems in the future.

I do think people should pay a decent tuition mainly because they need to understand the value and not be partying or what not but I wish states would keep funding their public colleges.

 

Honestly, I can't give any numbers but our public university system does a lot of good for the state. All my canning info comes from the state ag co-operative, we read the cold weather housing info when working on our house, we used their books when homeschooling using inter library loans, they do a lot of research on the natural resources our citizens use all the time, they do a lot for the community in public discourse, hosting debates, arts and music festivals, and historical lectures and historical preservation for the state. People get cheap dental hygiene from the students practicing. There is research and internships for engineering as they are working on tel comm and power for villages that are off the grid, which is most of our state by land mass. Oh, climate change mitigation research. It is hitting us pretty hard up here.  I know my state is somewhat unique but I got a lot out of our university without ever actually attending school there. Well, I did attend one semester once. One could argue the Constitutionality of the Morrill Land-Grant Acts and in some particular states there may have been issues with Native Land (don't know every state's history) but I really think it help propel the US economy forward. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by frogger

[Carrie12345]

11 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

My parents were both college graduates, however, my mom was poor and financial aid covered almost all of it(plus this was the 1970s when it was still affordable). My dad came from a wealthy family and they paid his way.  They had no idea how to advise me about loans, and I never had any advice. 

This is a post I lost in the board glitch yesterday, but it managed to get saved and popped up when I went to make a different reply, lol.

 

For whatever it’s worth, my mom went to college in the 70s (paid by grandparents, as were 3 weddings.) My dad did not. Mom quit school 3 years in “to get married”, which was a *relatively normal cultural thing to do.  They raised 3 kids in the suburbs on one regular retail worker’s income and a second sometimes retail worker’s income, when she wasn’t taking time off to stay home with young children. And then mom had a customer service job that came with a pension that survived the recession and will help her out soon.  AND THEN, even in the 90s, just her working alone, with side gigs, no child support, she still got by by the skin of her teeth and some Peter and Paul-ing, with 3 kids in the ‘burbs, no degree.

Those two people knew NOTHING about how to prepare 90s (and early 00s) graduates for ‘middle class’ life. They simply had no experience with what that might look like, in terms of cost or future wages/COL.

And I technically have no experience to gauge the future for my kids.  What I do have is the internet, thank goodness.  But even that doesn’t come with a genuine crystal ball.  So I could sit here and post all my best advice and still end up wrong in the long run. For now, I only have to look and listen to know that the system is crippling people at this very moment, and that doesn’t make them worse people.

[Carrie12345]

I’m going to look into this myself, but I want to pose the question before I do.
How did people look at public education when it first began? And then when it became compulsory? And then as it expanded in academic scope, extracurricular, non-academic services, special education, number of years, etc.? I wonder what the response was from families who had been utilizing private services. Did they find it outrageous that anyone off the street could get a publicly funded education, or did they recognize the importance for the whole of society?

Personally, I hate that college has become a near-necessity, primarily because of the expense.  Some areas of the US, and other countries, have done a decent-to-great job of keeping that expense down, but I certainly wouldn’t be able to afford, say, California residency in exchange for a good state system. Even with (or because of, lol) 5 kids.
Most of the US isn’t like that, though. 

I’ve run the math many times, and I could get a bachelor’s in a social science for $24k plus books and other expenses (like 2-3 years of commuting). If I CLEP a bunch, and commit to a year of local service.  Not too bad when compared to other avenues.  But it would qualify me to work, in today’s dollars, for $15/hr. Two additional years of school in exchange for an additional two years of service could put me in the $18 range. A few more years of experience starts to flirt with the $20s. I can only entertain that possibility because my household doesn’t actually need an additional income. My MSW sister just went back to work only because child care is now mostly covered by the public school system. It was impossible without that, and still expensive with. And she DID wait until her 30s to have kids. And still has loans (from a state school) to pay.

The whole thing - college costs, loan terms, employment qualifications, and pay rates - is messed up.  Something is going to have to give, or we’re all in trouble. 

[Clemsondana]

I've read articles that talk about crazy things that happen with interest on student loans such that people wind up paying 10x what they borrowed, and I have no problem with reforming those practices or there being policies around exactly how non-transparent the process can be.  If something can be worked out with those companies, similar to how other forms of debt can sometimes be negotiated so that there is a cap on the remaining portion, so that debt collectors who have bought the loan make their money and the ower can get out from under it, I'm good with that.  I'd also be fine with more opportunities to earn forgiveness through doing something useful in the community or making it easier to get the 'work in a troubled area for 10-20 years' grants. 

But, I struggle with the idea of a forgiveness and/or government repayment of somebody's loan.  I know people who didn't go to college because they couldn't afford it, so without a specific degree-needing goal in mind they decided that it wasn't beneficial to accumulate debt that they didn't know if they would be able to repay.  One guy that i was close to in high school now has a job that provides a decent life for his family, driving a truck that does local store deliveries of...milk or bread, I don't remember which.  But, before he was able to get that job, he spent some unhappy years as a long-haul trucker, away from his family.  He's done his lean years of bering uncomfortable to get to this point, and I don't see why he should be paying for someobdy who made different choices.  There are several young people in my orbit who have made education choices around money - one did 2 years of CC, living at home, before transferring to UState.  Another is about to commit to tiny In-State Tech instead of the OOS Tech that is his parents alma mater because he can graduate debt-free from the in-state school.  He's happy with the decision, but after sacrificing going to his dream school I don't see why he should pay for people who didn't make that choice.  

[Carrie12345]

https://ushistoryscene.com/article/rise-of-public-education/

“Jefferson’s greatest contribution to educational reform arrived with his Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge. Arguing that a better-educated populace would result in a freer and happier American public, the bill called for a widespread system of public education. Jefferson contended that “public happiness… should be rendered by liberal education worthy to receive, and able to guard the sacred deposit of the rights and liberties of their fellow citizens.” 10Jefferson spread the idea that a functional democracy required an educated citizenry. He asserted that the American government had the responsibility to foster the education of a meritocracy in which all citizens could compete. During the late eighteenth century, however, resistance to government-funded education was strong. 11 In both 1778 and 1780, Jefferson failed to get the bill to pass through Congress. While Jefferson was abroad serving as foreign minister to France in the 1780s, James Madison attempted to carry the legislation through Congress but met the same fate as Jefferson. In 1796, an edited version of the bill finally passed through Congress as the Act to Establish Public Schools. 12 Jefferson’s plans for more centralized education fell through because Americans still favored private education ventures and local control of the education system. Very few Americans wanted there to be government oversight of elementary and high school level education. “

Nearly 20 years and a watered down bill with lots of public opposition. The more things change… 
 

[Bambam]

Question - for those who support the student loan forgiveness, would you support a cash check to those of us who did live extremely frugally and paid off all our student loans? 

The people who didn't eat, or ate just mac-n-cheese/ramen noodles/baby food, or never went out to eat, or lived in cheaper and cheaper places, or put off having children so they could afford to work more to pay their loans they signed for, or never took a vacation or trip, or bought used cars and fixed those themselves, or only shopped garage sales/thrift stores for their clothes, etc? Many made serious sacrifices to be in a position to repay those loans. 

Shouldn't hard work and thrift and self-sacrifice and meeting your own commitments also be rewarded?

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Bootsie said:

If student loan debt could be discharged in the same way that credit card debt is, then it would make sense for student loan debt to have the same interest rate as other non-collateralized debt.  Having student loan debt interest at the level of credit card interest rates would not be popular with many.  

Is there evidence that people pay back student loan debt with more fidelity than businesses?  I have not seen evidence of that. National Student Loan Default Rate [2022]: Delinquency Data (educationdata.org)states that 11% of new graduates default within 1 year--I don't know of any bank lending to businesses with anywhere near that high of a default rate.  

Often private student loans - which at the time the studen may not even realize are private due to the manipulative, sometimes illegal way that financial aid "advisors" worded things at the time - often DUE have credit card interest rates. Actually, sometimes higher. 

So imagine a mortgage level amount of debt, but at credit card rate interest. 

And people are often told NOT to refinance that because of (list of reasons that may or may not make sense)

Edited March 31, 2022 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

I really do not understand the "it was hard for me, so I want it hard for others" mentality. That people would rather a society where no one chooses to go into social work or scientific research or other fields that don't pay enough to cover their debt, or that people put off having kids or don't have kids (that the economy NEEDS), just so it is "fair" I don't get. 

Of course, I also don't get a society that doesn't want any art history majors or creative writers or poets because those degrees are not a cost effective choice. Having everyone be engineers makes for a boring society.