Are you morally obligated to provide a better future for your children?

[GracieJane]

39 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I have been wracking my brain trying to see what is bothering me so much about this premise. I guess it’s such a middle class thing to say. Does this mean that low income people shouldn’t have children because they can’t guarantee a better financial outcome for their kids?  Does that mean that they love their children less?  

The principle is Don’t Make Things Worse. Ideally, successive generations do better than their parents (by whatever metric that is, but health and financial stability are the ones which are getting worse now). 

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, GracieJane said:

The principle is Don’t Make Things Worse. Ideally, successive generations do better than their parents (by whatever metric that is, but health and financial stability are the ones which are getting worse now). 

Health is worse because of Covid and the rise in anti-vaccination sentiment. 
 

 

[GracieJane]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Health is worse because of Covid and the rise in anti-vaccination sentiment. 
 

 

Also increased childhood obesity and its myriad of effects on lifetime health outcomes.

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, GracieJane said:

Also increased childhood obesity and its myriad of effects on lifetime health outcomes.

Ironically, I think some of the increase in childhood obesity is because of parents "giving their kids a better life," e.g. more access to food, funner food, more choice in what they're gonna do / eat, being driven to school & structured activities instead of walking & playing on the street all evening, being kept "safe" from freedom of movement, fewer chores, having less recess in favor of more seatwork, electronic entertainment and wireless everything ....

[Ellie]

No. What could we even do to guarantee that in any way?

Also, I don't think I have had a bad life, so not sure what a "better life" for my dc would look like.

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, GracieJane said:

I suppose this goes along with the concept of filial obligations, and maybe some of it’s cultural.

Oh no this is purely a personal thing. My mom didn't want to hold her newborn baby grand-daughter and said up front when I was in my teens (no children in sight) I will not be babysitting your kids. In fact, my mom currently lives an ocean away from me, of her own choosing. 

I think mostly it comes down to what your family needs and your own personality. Some grandparents take on the care their grandchildren because they have to otherwise those children's parents can't function well (reasons financial or otherwise). Other grandparents just love having grandchildren around.

[frogger]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Ironically, I think some of the increase in childhood obesity is because of parents "giving their kids a better life," e.g. more access to food, funner food, more choice in what they're gonna do / eat, being driven to school & structured activities instead of walking & playing on the street all evening, being kept "safe" from freedom of movement, fewer chores, having less recess in favor of more seatwork, electronic entertainment and wireless everything ....

Well, a lot of evidence (not conclusive of course) points to pollution both air pollution and microplastics disrupting both gut biome and the endocrine systems. The number of kids on diets and exercise regimes is just sad. I mean the exercise is playing outside great but the fact that it is a battle from the age of 9 or 10 is heart breaking and often has nothing to do with overeating junk food. 

Are there kids who pig out on junk food? Sure but I really think the largest increase has to do with actual medical issues. 

There has been very large scale studies showing kids are entering puberty younger too.  

It is sad we are leaving the next generation with a chemical laden dump for a world to live in. ☹️

[SKL]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

There has been very large scale studies showing kids are entering puberty younger too.  

It is sad we are leaving the next generation with a chemical laden dump for a world to live in. ☹️

Yeah I fed my kids organic food in part to avoid the hormonal disruptions.

Funny thing though, a few days ago my 15yo complained that organic food delays puberty and caused her to be a late bloomer in middle school.  (In her subjective opinion.)

Can't win.  😛

[DawnM]

If I can provide a better future for my kids, why wouldn't I?   That is my feeling on the topic.

[Eos]

9 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

(most kids with enormous student debt - made poor choices because they weren't taught and didn't know what they were doing.)

In this country we consistently blame poor people for their own problems, a convenient way to think that those of us with the privilege of education somehow made good choices rather than see ourselves as the recipients of a structure carefully designed and enacted through law to reward us and people like us. 

Property tax-based education funding defines the lines of inequity for the entire country, though affects poor communities of color the most. 

Social Security initially prohibited domestic and agricultural workers from participating, which primarily affected black workers.  When black people were legally prohibited from participating in the GI Bill for college and were legally excluded from middle class neighborhoods, it meant that they were not only not able to build the same level of investment in themselves for their children but that they were at the same time having to fully provide for their aging parents who were excluded from Social Security.  

6 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Does this mean that low income people shouldn’t have children because they can’t guarantee a better financial outcome for their kids?

Or are somehow immoral if they do have children?

7 hours ago, freesia said:

The uncontrollable—war, disease, mental illness, a collapsing of support system, the loss of financial stability through divorce or something like the stock market crash, accidents

Or beginning the "climb" with no financial stability due to structures entirely outside our control.  I will do everything I can to leave as much money and property to my children as I can, which may be a more immoral goal than TexasProud's goal to leave it charities.  What if there was no inherited wealth in this world?

[Guest]

Haven’t read all replies. 
 

I will inherit no wealth from my parents.

I think we are obligated to give our children whatever tools we have available to them to give them the best chance of success. So, for example, you provide knowledge and information and skills; if you’re in a budget, use the public library for that. You provide the most nutritious food you can manage. You take care of their teeth and their health. You do your best to raise them with good judgment and values. You set them us with marketable skills, whether that is through a (real, genuine) trade, a certificate program at community college or a four-year degree if you can possibly manage that. 
 

And then? You throw the dice and hope you don’t get Snake Eyes. 

[Laura Corin]

11 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Wow.

I’m sorry, but that seems so ridiculous to me. 

You would rather leave your money to complete strangers than to your own children? Why??? Aside from the fact that it’s nice to know your kids wouldn’t have to worry about money after you’re gone, what if one of your kids ends up sick or disabled someday, and really needed that money? What if you have a grandchild who needs some kind of expensive special care? 

Ever since our ds22 was born, my dh and I have arranged our finances so we will be able to leave him as much money and assets as possible when we pass away. Our parents did it for us, and we want to continue to create generational wealth. I’m sure he will do the same for his own family some day.

We are trying to organise our lives such that we are self supporting until death. The children may inherit some, depending on when we die and how much our care costs. We have our wills set up so that there is one small absolute value charitable donation but also percentage of proceeds donations, so that the children probably get the majority. 

I didn't inherit anything from my father and neither did Husband from his parents.  I may get an inheritance from my mother. None of that changes how I feel about leaving money to the kids.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Clarita said:

I was in my teens (no children in sight) I will not be babysitting your kids

I feel this way about future grandchildren as well. I mean, sure they can spend the night on occasion or (if they live nearby enough), stay for an evening while mom and dad go to a wedding or dinner. But NO WAY as a daily childcare option. (Sure, in an extreme crisis I would, but only under those circumstances.) When I started a family, dh and I were completely self-sufficient and had no expectations - or even any hope - that our parents would help us on any regular basis at all, either with finances or with childcare. My parents were incapable of it for various reasons and dh’s parents had seven grandkids already, ending up with eighteen. 

[Selkie]

6 hours ago, frogger said:

Well, a lot of evidence (not conclusive of course) points to pollution both air pollution and microplastics disrupting both gut biome and the endocrine systems. The number of kids on diets and exercise regimes is just sad. I mean the exercise is playing outside great but the fact that it is a battle from the age of 9 or 10 is heart breaking and often has nothing to do with overeating junk food. 

Are there kids who pig out on junk food? Sure but I really think the largest increase has to do with actual medical issues. 

There has been very large scale studies showing kids are entering puberty younger too.  

It is sad we are leaving the next generation with a chemical laden dump for a world to live in. ☹️

Food definitely plays a big role in childhood obesity, as this article points out:

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/11/1026816658/study-us-kids-diet-ultraprocessed-junk-food

Kids and teens in the U.S. get the majority of their calories from ultra-processed foods like frozen pizza, microwavable meals, chips and cookies, a new study has found. 

Two-thirds — or 67% — of calories consumed by children and adolescents in 2018 came from ultra-processed foods, a jump from 61% in 1999, according to a peer-reviewed study published in the medical journal JAMA. The research, which analyzed the diets of 33,795 youths ages 2 to 19 across the U.S., noted the "overall poorer nutrient profile" of the ultra-processed foods...

 

During the same two-decade period when the study data was collected, the consumption of unprocessed or minimally processed foods decreased to 23.5% from 28.8%, the study found. 

The greatest increase in calories came from ready-to-eat or ready-to-heat meals such as pizza, sandwiches and hamburgers, rising to 11.2% of calories from 2.2%. Packaged sweet snacks and treats such as cakes and ice cream were a runner-up, which made up 12.9% of calorie consumption in 2018, compared with 10.6% in 1999...

 

While the study's authors said that the relationship between childhood obesity and ultra-processed foods is complex, they acknowledge that "cohort studies provide consistent evidence suggesting high intake of ultra-processed foods contributes to obesity in children and young adults."

Indeed, a 2019 study by researchers at the National Institutes of Health found that a diet filled with ultra-processed foods encourages people to overeat and gain weight compared to diets that consist of whole or minimally processed foods.

[frogger]

Well, I think it would be immoral for me personally to not leave my children better off than I was but I have already done that. They were raised in a home that didn't use them as weapons against others, with alcohol abuse and a poor education. They are starting light years ahead of where I was. I was on my own at 17 with no savings.  I ended up living in a different state and my parents didn't know that I even left state. I have no college education. I was working three jobs just to eat and pay for a place to live. 

The real poor can't even get the huge loans that people talk about. Federal Aid only goes so far and you usually need co-signers, typically parents, for the really large ones. Kids like me couldn't even ask parents to fill out a FAFSA. 

I hope that I have set my kids up for success from the beginning so they won't need me to leave them money in the end though I certainly will if I have any. I would certainly not mind leaving some to charities too. Who knows what we will have in the end with all the things that could happen but I have invested in my kids childhood and young adulthood so they are already better off. 

Of course, I can't help that microplastics are everywhere and there is a mental health crisis in their country and obscene federal debt levels and a convoluted health care system. But I can't control those things. 

[wintermom]

I believe that I have a moral obligation as a parent to provide a decent upbringing, which includes adequate food, housing, health care, education, social and emotional support, to the best of my ability. 

To the OP, how does one even quantify "better" and where do morals come into this? Is it some kind of competition? 

I can see the ridiculous spreadsheet (from the kids' point of view):

1 family car = 5 points

parents giving you a car = 100 points (1000 points if it's a corvette)

vacation to Disneyland = 50 points

being allowed to eat junk food = 80 points

own gaming computer by age 10 = 500 points.

Edited March 29, 2022 by wintermom

[frogger]

4 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Food definitely plays a big role in childhood obesity, as this article points out:

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/11/1026816658/study-us-kids-diet-ultraprocessed-junk-food

Kids and teens in the U.S. get the majority of their calories from ultra-processed foods like frozen pizza, microwavable meals, chips and cookies, a new study has found. 

Two-thirds — or 67% — of calories consumed by children and adolescents in 2018 came from ultra-processed foods, a jump from 61% in 1999, according to a peer-reviewed study published in the medical journal JAMA. The research, which analyzed the diets of 33,795 youths ages 2 to 19 across the U.S., noted the "overall poorer nutrient profile" of the ultra-processed foods...

 

During the same two-decade period when the study data was collected, the consumption of unprocessed or minimally processed foods decreased to 23.5% from 28.8%, the study found. 

The greatest increase in calories came from ready-to-eat or ready-to-heat meals such as pizza, sandwiches and hamburgers, rising to 11.2% of calories from 2.2%. Packaged sweet snacks and treats such as cakes and ice cream were a runner-up, which made up 12.9% of calorie consumption in 2018, compared with 10.6% in 1999...

 

While the study's authors said that the relationship between childhood obesity and ultra-processed foods is complex, they acknowledge that "cohort studies provide consistent evidence suggesting high intake of ultra-processed foods contributes to obesity in children and young adults."

Indeed, a 2019 study by researchers at the National Institutes of Health found that a diet filled with ultra-processed foods encourages people to overeat and gain weight compared to diets that consist of whole or minimally processed foods.

I didn't say it doesn't play a big role in some people's lives but it certainly isn't the only one but that is probably for another thread. Those who have watched children suffer on special diets of wholesome food fighting for every pound know and understand there are multiple reasons for things. 

Like it or not, these disorders are on the rise along with other types of disorders. Allergies are another thing that has numbers that seem to be shooting through the roof. 

[Soror]

I don't feel it is a moral obligation, maybe an aspiration. I see how much easier people have it when then get more knowledge, help, money, property etc from their family of origin. But there are limited number of things we can do - the fact that we chose for me to stay home has limited our funds. The fact that dh chose a job that paid less but let him stay home more limited our funds.  I hope that what we lack in finances we can help with information. We've been a lot more explicit with discussing such things than our parents were--- what are good financial decisions-- pros/cons etc. 

But we don't have as much money as dh's parents although more than mine. His dad was able to pay for college (sister went but dh washed out). Mine didn't/couldn't help (luckily I had good scholarships to pay for most). I expect we'll be somewhere in the middle with more kids, smaller salary, and rising education costs. As far as inheritance, we are currently on track to have a healthy retirement and would certainly be happy to leave whatever is left to our kids---- but who knows what will happen in life there are too many variables. And while, we don't plan on living extravagantly in older age I'm not going to be a miser just so I have money to leave my kids. 

As far as help with grandchildren-- I expect to help some but not full-time. My parents rarely watched my kids as they were busy watching my brothers (mom quit to watch his kids while sil worked). Usually I just gave up asking as it was always an ordeal to see if she didn't have to watch their kids --- even when I truly needed the help like having people in the hospital. Mil and fil worked when the kids were small and not able to help much. AFter fil retired he would occasionally watch them. These days the younger two will go visit and help more- mostly because mil is lonely and doesn't mind older kids so much (doesn't care for the younger ones). 

 

[frogger]

14 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I believe that I have a moral obligation as a parent to provide a decent upbringing, which includes adequate food, housing, health care, education, social and emotional support, to the best of my ability. 

To the OP, how does one even quantify "better" and where do morals come into this? Is it some kind of competition? 

I can see the ridiculous spreadsheet (from the kids' point of view):

1 family car = 5 points

parents giving you a car = 100 points (1000 points if it's a corvette)

vacation to Disneyland = 50 points

being allowed to eat junk food = 80 points

own gaming computer by age 10 = 500 points.

I think if you go back to the OP you will see it says, " worse life outcomes than their parents in global health and financial scores."

I think some of the things you listed were opposite of the goal. I think the point was more along the lines of unhealthy both physically and mentally, unstable financially etc. 

[wintermom]

4 minutes ago, frogger said:

I think if you go back to the OP you will see it says, " worse life outcomes than their parents in global health and financial scores."

I think some of the things you listed were opposite of the goal. I think the point was more along the lines of unhealthy both physically and mentally, unstable financially etc. 

I missed that. I though my scoring system was more youth focused and fun, though. And potentially more meaningful to individuals. The scoring system of global health and financial scores is "The GHS Index is designed to inform leaders of the foundational elements that are necessary to prepare their countries"

[Granny_Weatherwax]

"Global health and finance" - I don't know how we can help with health other than providing the best possible food and medical care within our means. As an athlete, I encourage activity and let my children and grandchildren participate in what I do. With the increase in so many health conditions, mentally and physically, and the advent of new technology that allows for the discovery and diagnosis of previously undetected medical issues, I don't think it's realistic to believe there won't be an increase in health problems. I also believe the treatment for those health issues will be better and make for more optimistic prognoses. But, when we have multiple problems with food resources and the expenses of eating properly...that's an issue that boggles my mind and causes anxiety.

Financially - As someone who came from extreme lower-class, I had dreams of that inheritance by a long-lost uncle or winning the lottery. To be honest, I still do. My dreams have changed though. I have gone from wanting it for myself to wanting it to help my children and grandchildren. I want to help out as much as I can. 

(So many thoughts and responses written and deleted)

[frogger]

10 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I missed that. I though my scoring system was more youth focused and fun, though. And potentially more meaningful to individuals. The scoring system of global health and financial scores is "The GHS Index is designed to inform leaders of the foundational elements that are necessary to prepare their countries"

Yes, individual versus systematic problems definitely have a different feel. I have more control over one than the other which is probably why we all went that direction, though I'm not positive which direction was intended. 

The big systematic issues bother me more but I have an imperceptible effect on them even if pushing policies, writing congressman etc. Although I might stand a better chance at a local level. 

Even at an individual level, I would think OP intended health and welfare but maybe I'm wrong. I can't see inheritance being the big issue. I'm personally hoping my children will have lived most of their lives before they get an actual inheritance! 😁

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by frogger

[SKL]

35 minutes ago, Quill said:

I feel this way about future grandchildren as well. I mean, sure they can spend the night on occasion or (if they live nearby enough), stay for an evening while mom and dad go to a wedding or dinner. But NO WAY as a daily childcare option. (Sure, in an extreme crisis I would, but only under those circumstances.) When I started a family, dh and I were completely self-sufficient and had no expectations - or even any hope - that our parents would help us on any regular basis at all, either with finances or with childcare. My parents were incapable of it for various reasons and dh’s parents had seven grandkids already, ending up with eighteen. 

I will be an older grandma (if my kids have kids), so I don't know what will be possible.  I'd like to help if needed, but it depends on many things.

It's not about what I got from my parents, but if it matters, they were ~65 when my kids came home, and they were not spry.  When my kids were 4, my sister had a medical crisis and needed my folks to take care of her tot, and they couldn't do more.  So that was that.  The total babysitting hours my folks gave me was maybe 20 (including one overnight when I was traveling for work).  To be honest, I was hoping my kids would have more quality time with their grandparents (not necessarily babysitting), but it is what it is.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I will be an older grandma (if my kids have kids), so I don't know what will be possible.  I'd like to help if needed, but it depends on many things.

It's not about what I got from my parents, but if it matters, they were ~65 when my kids came home, and they were not spry.  When my kids were 4, my sister had a medical crisis and needed my folks to take care of her tot, and they couldn't do more.  So that was that.  The total babysitting hours my folks gave me was maybe 20 (including one overnight when I was traveling for work).  To be honest, I was hoping my kids would have more quality time with their grandparents (not necessarily babysitting), but it is what it is.

I agree that it depends on many things, some that may be out of my control and others that might be within my control and prioritized.  And I also don’t take my parenting cues from my parents just because “that’s the way it was.”  Did I turn out okay? I like to think so. Does that mean kids don’t need or deserve the emotional support I did without as a kid?  Why on earth would that answer be yes???

As far as grandparenting, my kids had a set of nut cases and a set of absentee-gps. I didn’t really have a say in that, so I don’t hold myself responsible. Whatever the future brings, of course I’ll strive to do better.
And no, my kids aren’t “entitled” to full time babysitting.  But if it’s both needed and doable, why would I choose to let my kids/gks suffer for it?

I had/have a parent who was of the “you’ll figure it out” mindset.  Did I? Yes. Quickly, and in ways that didn’t hurt my family? No.  And sometimes that’s just the way it is without options. But a couple of hours 2 nights a week would have meant health care, dental care, nutritious food, and *maybe (not definitively) would have avoided 2 years in a moldy, lead-ridden apartment in a questionable area. But my independence was considered to be much more important than income for health and safety.

[madteaparty]

I don’t think our kids will have the same quality of life they have now. I tell DS live  it up, it’s downhill from here. 

[fairfarmhand]

This is an interesting question for me. My dh and I came from very poor backgrounds, so if our parents left us anything at all it felt like a bonus. 

Now that my dh has lost both of his parents (at ages 62 and 65) and my mom is dead (passed at age 52), we think of things in an interesting way. My dad and stepmom are comfortable while not wealthy. MY dh and I have made more money in 5 years than his parents made in several decades.

Since my dad and stepmom are living, and my dad is our last biological parent, I sincerely hope that they enjoy all they have and spend every penny on living a full and exiting life. For them with their income level and all they've ever earned (my dad is a pastor) this isn't going to mean an extravagant lifestyle. But I do want them to be around for decades, travel, and have fun. 

We don't need their money. My kids don't need their money. My kids are going to college (they all have the abilities to earn scholarships for decent state universities, and we'll help with anything their scholarships don't pay for) and will have the ability to make a good upper middle class lifestyle for themselves.

 

[frogger]

22 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

This is an interesting question for me. My dh and I came from very poor backgrounds, so if our parents left us anything at all it felt like a bonus. 

Now that my dh has lost both of his parents (at ages 62 and 65) and my mom is dead (passed at age 52), we think of things in an interesting way. My dad and stepmom are comfortable while not wealthy. MY dh and I have made more money in 5 years than his parents made in several decades.

Since my dad and stepmom are living, and my dad is our last biological parent, I sincerely hope that they enjoy all they have and spend every penny on living a full and exiting life. For them with their income level and all they've ever earned (my dad is a pastor) this isn't going to mean an extravagant lifestyle. But I do want them to be around for decades, travel, and have fun. 

We don't need their money. My kids don't need their money. My kids are going to college (they all have the abilities to earn scholarships for decent state universities, and we'll help with anything their scholarships don't pay for) and will have the ability to make a good upper middle class lifestyle for themselves.

 

It sounds like your family very much fits the pattern of leaving the next generation better off. 

I've always thought of leaving the next generation better off applied to things like working the manual labor job so the kid could get an education and move up the ladder. Or moving to the US and starting over so kids would have more opportunity even if it meant you ended further down on the career ladder. These are the way others have related it to me in the past. 

I've never heard of it in relation to inheritance until this thread. 

[Jaybee]

No, not necessarily. I would love to be able to give our kids as stable a financial backing as we received. But it's not possible. My father was a medical professional (not in a high-paying specialty, but they were careful with money). My fil was a frugal small businessman. My mother was a SAHM from the depression era who bought in bulk when possible, bought groceries according to the weekly specials, and made nearly all our clothes until we younger ones were at least in middle school. My mil was a SAHM part of the time, but also worked in the small business/es as the children got older. While I have mostly been a SAHM, dh is in a service profession, which by definition does not provide a comparable salary, especially to my dad's. Honestly, we are not as frugal, though we don't buy lots of expensive gadgets, etc. (Even if we were, however, we wouldn't be near the same ballpark financially.) And we have more children than they did--one more than in-laws, and two more than my parents. Our parents paid for our higher education, and mine gave me a car upon college graduation. Both dh and I have master's degrees. In addition, both sets of parents gave us a stable and safe upbringing, and we have good memories.

For our kids, I do believe they have good memories. They have had a very rich childhood culturally, as they all grew up with overseas living in at least two countries (not the same ones for all of them). I have been a SAHM most of those years, which has helped with emotional stability, I think, though not financial stability. My being home and our homeschooling meant that even though outside circumstances changed, our daily lives looked quite similar no matter where we lived. We were not able to pay for our children's university experiences. Thanks to a combination of education funds from my parents, merit scholarships, scholarships through dh's job, and their work, all of our children except the youngest who is still in hs, have or will soon graduate from college without debt. For this, we are extremely grateful. I feel that the time homeschooling did contribute to their ability to excel academically (because I sought high quality materials), but we have not contributed much at all to their educational funds outside of the dh job scholarship. Two have master's degrees, and one has some debt for that, but has a high-paying job that should knock it out fairly quickly. We have not been able to give our children vehicles, though all of them were either given their first vehicle by someone who had an old one they were planning to give away, or were able to buy a budget used one, either while they were in college or before. Some were 2-3 years into college before they had their own vehicle.

We will not be able to give them much, if any, as an inheritance unless we die before retirement, through life insurance. I am just hoping that we will not outlive our funds, to be honest. It's a concern. But we have done as much as we can to provide life experiences and work ethic over the years so that they will be in a good position to succeed as well as pretty much anyone, depending on cultural and economic circumstances. If they can't, they will certainly not be alone in having to deal with societal issues/pressures.

I want to emphasize again how grateful I am for being in this position. Because of our parents, their generosity, and their values and work ethics, our children have benefitted. As have we. In numerous ways. Even more so, by their character. I realize that this isn't because we were great at handling our finances, because we have struggled with it sometimes. So I'm not patting ourselves on the back--I just have to be thankful.

Another little note or two--while only one of our four parents had more than a high school education, and two of them had considerably less, all of them put high value on higher education. I remember my mom (high school education but a lifelong reader and learner) telling me that while I didn't have to go to college, I did have to get training in something so that I could provide a living for myself. When I was considering quitting grad school, mostly due to financial challenges, my mil told me, "That would be a shame. Your education is something nobody can take away from you." I stayed in school. In part, this background is what makes me so sad when I read statements from those who de-emphasize higher education (like IBLC or adjacent) that girls should just be taught to work at home. (That plus the fact that the higher my education went, the more I loved it.) It doesn't just make me sad, it makes me mad. Also, youngest will probably start out training for a trade. He does have dreams of one day going to college, but not yet. College courses will be a real challenge for him due to learning disabilities. He won't be able to get merit scholarships. But he is an extremely hard worker, and if he wants it, I'm sure he will find some way to do it.

[Jaybee]

As to grandparents caring for grandkids, we always lived far away, and actually none of my siblings lived close enough for anything other than occasional childcare for a trip or something. We did benefit from that on a couple of occasions.

And now we live far away from all our grandkids. I have travelled to help out when babies were born and for emergency situations, and that is honestly one reason I am reluctant to take on another job. (I might anyway, but I do really like being available.) I love my grandkids to pieces, but I wouldn't really want to be the daily childcare option. However, if I were in the position to do so, I wouldn't flat out refuse without thought and discussion, because it might be the way I could pass on benefits to our children.

[SKL]

If you look back to when I was my kids' age, well, things were pretty bleak then!  In my then county, the unemployment rate was 25%.  Stagflation, cold war nuke fears, fuel shortages, and the scientists couldn't decide whether we should worry more about global warning or a new ice age.  If history is any guide, projections aren't to be trusted, especially not doomsday predictions.

That said, I have told my kids that they can live with me as long as they want to, provided they are decent housemates.  Their bedrooms are bigger than mine, and we live within 20 miles of a couple dozen college/university campuses, which is a heck of a lot better than I had at their age.  Barring all-out war or complete economic chaos, I should be able to meet our "basic needs" for the rest of my life.  Beyond that, it's up to them.

[Amy Gen]

For me, a better life means having more options, so I every area where I can tip the scale in my kids’ favor, I’m going to do it. Will I make mistakes? Yes. Will they complain about me to their therapists? Yes. Will they have more chances to live the lives they choose than their father and I had? Also yes. 
 

I think of it as a bunch of tiny weights that add up to a big difference. For example, I think good nutrition gives you an advantage, so I’ve spent decades cooking healthy meals from scratch. My kids can choose to reject that and live on junk food, but because they are accustomed to healthy food, and they have been taught how to cook, that will be a choice, not necessity. 
 

I think exercise is is beneficial for everyone. So we are very involved in their sports, donating time and money and making sure our kids have a habit of working out daily. They can choose to become couch potatoes when they grow up, but at least they have a choice. 
 

I feel like a close Church family can be a comfort in good times and bad. I won’t be upset if my kids reject organized religion as adults. We are raising them with weekly church attendance, Bible lessons at home, and service projects, so that they will have option of going and will know what they are missing if they don’t. 
 

When I have grandchildren, their parents will have options. If they want me to babysit full time or even homeschool their kids, I will do that. If they want to stay home with them, I’ll stay working so I can contribute financially to their families. We are also providing for our own retirements so that they have options there too, they will not have to care for us in our old age unless they choose to. 
 

I can’t prevent the disasters like floods and miscarriages and cancer and mental illness, but I know that disasters are easier to deal with when you have strong family support to fall back on. 
 

When you add up all of the small areas such as good prenatal care, good nutrition, individualized education, intact family or origin, financial security, college education, gift of first car….it starts adding up to a life of privilege. That doesn’t sound bad to me, because I hope that all of my children use that privilege to care for others and make the lives around them better than they would be without them. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is this thread referencing a specific site or index?  Because I looked at the Global Health Security Index and other than a few specifically Covid related markers (zoonotic disease, trade and travel indications and risk communication), the US is doing pretty well with most things either staying the same or better than before 2019. 

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Eos said:

In this country we consistently blame poor people for their own problems, a convenient way to think that those of us with the privilege of education somehow made good choices rather than see ourselves as the recipients of a structure carefully designed and enacted through law to reward us and people like us. 

 

You know what - not everything is about economic class.  It is about what your parents teach you.  It's about culture.

After my father's death when I was 12, - I lived in poverty (and I've had some stints in poverty with four kids.)  - so you can get off your high horse. 

My went to college (didn't graduate) mentally ill mother - undermined my sister and I from pursuing even a basic public school education.  (btw: - her father only had an 8th grade education, but her "children of farmers" working-class parents were hard workers who saved their money.) What we've accomplished was despite her.

How about blaming the parents for NOT teaching their children how to handle money and to think long term? (I know a lot of *college educated*, middle class, parents who didn't teach their kids those basics. They mistakenly thought they'd pick it up by osmosis or something.)  When my father was in college in the 1950s there were no student loans.  My father put himself through college despite his working-class stepfather regularly telling him he'd never amount to anything.

Schools offering student loans in the first place is one of the reasons college costs have skyrocketed.  I'd like to see financial - and long-term educational - counseling as a requirement of student loans (since too many parents aren't doing that.). 

Then there is the whole "pursue your passion, and the job will come" baloney.   

I have one who majored in classics. For years, she got to listen to me ask her "what are you going to do with that to support yourself?"    - She eventually went into computers and now has her dream job.  

 

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

You know what - not everything is about economic class.  It is about what your parents teach you.  It's about culture.

After my father's death when I was 12, - I lived in poverty (and I've had some stints in poverty with four kids.)  - so you can get off your high horse. 

Plenty of the rest of us who’ve had similar experiences refuse to put blinders on our horseys, tyvm.  We know what you really mean.

[GracieJane]

17 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Is this thread referencing a specific site or index?  Because I looked at the Global Health Security Index and other than a few specifically Covid related markers (zoonotic disease, trade and travel indications and risk communication), the US is doing pretty well with most things either staying the same or better than before 2019. 

“The Millennial generation is on a much lower trajectory of wealth accumulation than their parents and grandparents.”

https://www.newamerica.org/millennials/reports/emerging-millennial-wealth-gap/

Generation Z has a higher obesity rate than any generation prior:

“The percentage of obese children in the United States aged 6 to 11 increased from 7 percent in 1980 to 18 percent in 2012, according to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). And, during the same time period, the percentage of obese teenagers aged 12 to 19 increased from 5 percent to 21 percent.”

https://www.binghammemorial.org/Health-News/childhood-obesity-on-the-rise
 

“Generation X and millennials are in worse health than their parents and grandparents were at their age.”

“Both generations were worse off when it came to "physiological dysregulation," which includes problems like elevated blood pressure and cholesterol, excess belly fat, and substances in the blood that suggest the body is in a state of chronic inflammation.

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20210325/gen-x-millennials-in-worse-health-than-prior-generations

[Jean in Newcastle]

According to this Financial score card, more people are doing better financially (by small amounts but still better).  https://finhealthnetwork.org/research/financial-health-pulse-2021-u-s-trends/

[GracieJane]

6 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

According to this Financial score card, more people are doing better financially (by small amounts but still better).  https://finhealthnetwork.org/research/financial-health-pulse-2021-u-s-trends/

Perhaps I’m missing the generational data, this looks like a study on the last 3 years? 

[Corraleno]

16 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

According to this Financial score card, more people are doing better financially (by small amounts but still better).  https://finhealthnetwork.org/research/financial-health-pulse-2021-u-s-trends/

But that report is primarily about the effect of government subsidies and expanded unemployment benefits to mitigate the effects of covid: "Overall financial health improved over the past year, as government relief programs and personal spending reductions connected to the COVID-19 pandemic continued. Still, two-thirds of Americans are not considered Financially Healthy."

Also: "From 2020-21, 43% of people experienced reductions in financial health and 10% of people moved to a lower financial health tier. People with disabilities, low to moderate incomes, or less than a bachelor’s degree were more likely to experience a decline in financial health."

[Jean in Newcastle]

17 minutes ago, GracieJane said:

Perhaps I’m missing the generational data, this looks like a study on the last 3 years? 

 

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

But that report is primarily about the effect of government subsidies and expanded unemployment benefits to mitigate the effects of covid: "Overall financial health improved over the past year, as government relief programs and personal spending reductions connected to the COVID-19 pandemic continued. Still, two-thirds of Americans are not considered Financially Healthy."

Also: "From 2020-21, 43% of people experienced reductions in financial health and 10% of people moved to a lower financial health tier. People with disabilities, low to moderate incomes, or less than a bachelor’s degree were more likely to experience a decline in financial health."

@GracieJaneWe were posting at the same time so I hadn't seen your answer to my request for what sites etc. you were basing this on.  So I went looking on my own but since I didn't really know where to look, this is what I came up with at first blush. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

How about blaming the parents for NOT teaching their children how to handle money and to think long term? (I know a lot of *college educated*, middle class, parents who didn't teach their kids those basics. They mistakenly thought they'd pick it up by osmosis or something.)  When my father was in college in the 1950s there were no student loans.  My father put himself through college despite his working-class stepfather regularly telling him he'd never amount to anything.

When I was in college in the 70s, resident tuition at a public university in my current state was less than $600/year — of course people could put themselves through college by working! Current tuition at the same college is $12,000/yr — the idea that boomers put themselves through college so students today should do the same thing instead of taking out loans is totally disingenuous.

I grew up in poverty, too — real poverty. It's hard for parents to teach their kids "how to handle money" when they literally never have any money. What lessons can a parent teach when their financial decisions are basically which utility bill should be paid this month because it's the one most likely to be shut off? It's hard to teach children to "think long term" when you literally don't know if you're going to have enough food to make it to the end of the week.

"If poor people just worked harder and planned better and ate nothing but bulk beans and stale bread and water they wouldn't be poor" is a big steaming crock of @#$%.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Corraleno

[Eos]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

You know what - not everything is about economic class.  It is about what your parents teach you.  It's about culture.

After my father's death when I was 12, - I lived in poverty (and I've had some stints in poverty with four kids.)  - so you can get off your high horse. 

My went to college (didn't graduate) mentally ill mother - undermined my sister and I from pursuing even a basic public school education.  (btw: - her father only had an 8th grade education, but her "children of farmers" working-class parents were hard workers who saved their money.) What we've accomplished was despite her.

How about blaming the parents for NOT teaching their children how to handle money and to think long term? (I know a lot of *college educated*, middle class, parents who didn't teach their kids those basics. They mistakenly thought they'd pick it up by osmosis or something.)  When my father was in college in the 1950s there were no student loans.  My father put himself through college despite his working-class stepfather regularly telling him he'd never amount to anything.

Schools offering student loans in the first place is one of the reasons college costs have skyrocketed.  I'd like to see financial - and long-term educational - counseling as a requirement of student loans (since too many parents aren't doing that.). 

Then there is the whole "pursue your passion, and the job will come" baloney.   

I have one who majored in classics. For years, she got to listen to me ask her "what are you going to do with that to support yourself?"    - She eventually went into computers and now has her dream job.  

 

I'm sorry you had some serious personal challenges, and it's great that you really overcame them and turned around to take what you learned to raise your kids.  I don't think you understood what I was talking about.

[Faith-manor]

Tuition and fees for the University of Michigan will be $25,000 this coming academic year. This does not include books and supplies much less housing and food, health insurance which students may or may not have based on their parents' employment. Their eligibility for any aid is based on their parents' income and assets even if their parents are nor contributing one red cent to their educations.

$100,000+ over four years without the costs of just being alive. Anyone who says students can work their way through college is just truly ignorant. At our closest community college, tuition without fees and books is $550 per credit hour, books total an average of $750 per semester, and the costs to commute at today's used car prices plus insurance is staggering, not to mention that Michigan doesn't regulate community colleges like some states do so transferring after two years "to save money" is a joke because nearly all of the classes will transfer only as electives. Community college is literally a financial scam in this state.

It is just one of many, many issues Gen Z faces as they try to get ahead. And of course most parents could not save that kind of money to dole out for higher education when tuition outpaced wages by 500% and health costs became so crazy inflated with high premiums, high deductibles.

The middle class is shrinking, and it is going to be damn tough for a lot of young people to become middle class. I don't think the present economic model of the U.S. is sustainable.

We cannot do anything with issues outside of our control. We seek to do what we can for them because we love them so much. For us, that meant helping with college bills as much as we could, and buying the multi-generational home so they have a comfortable place to live as long as they need it near a metropolis with tons of employment options, reasonable cost of living. Beyond that, we try to plan so we are not a financial burden to them when we face our elder years. That is about all we can do unless the whole family can pack up and move to other countries, but immigration is tight in most areas of the world where it would be amenable to live a financially stable life with access to good medical care.

[Janeway]

On 3/28/2022 at 4:37 PM, GracieJane said:

I read that we may witness the first generations in the US to have worse life outcomes than their parents in global health and financial scores. I am personally seeing many people who will inherit no wealth from their parents, but will likely support them in their twilight years. Do you think parents are obligated to give their children a better life than their own?

No, we are not. We are obligated to raise them well and do nothing to destroy the world before they can take care of themselves. That is it.

[frogger]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Tuition and fees for the University of Michigan will be $25,000 this coming academic year. This does not include books and supplies much less housing and food, health insurance which students may or may not have based on their parents' employment. Their eligibility for any aid is based on their parents' income and assets even if their parents are nor contributing one red cent to their educations.

$100,000+ over four years without the costs of just being alive. Anyone who says students can work their way through college is just truly ignorant. At our closest community college, tuition without fees and books is $550 per credit hour, books total an average of $750 per semester, and the costs to commute at today's used car prices plus insurance is staggering, not to mention that Michigan doesn't regulate community colleges like some states do so transferring after two years "to save money" is a joke because nearly all of the classes will transfer only as electives. Community college is literally a financial scam in this state.

It is just one of many, many issues Gen Z faces as they try to get ahead. And of course most parents could not save that kind of money to dole out for higher education when tuition outpaced wages by 500% and health costs became so crazy inflated with high premiums, high deductibles.

The middle class is shrinking, and it is going to be damn tough for a lot of young people to become middle class. I don't think the present economic model of the U.S. is sustainable.

We cannot do anything with issues outside of our control. We seek to do what we can for them because we love them so much. For us, that meant helping with college bills as much as we could, and buying the multi-generational home so they have a comfortable place to live as long as they need it near a metropolis with tons of employment options, reasonable cost of living. Beyond that, we try to plan so we are not a financial burden to them when we face our elder years. That is about all we can do unless the whole family can pack up and move to other countries, but immigration is tight in most areas of the world where it would be amenable to live a financially stable life with access to good medical care.

I'm a little confused on your numbers. 

https://admissions.umich.edu/costs-aid/costs

But my main point was going to be that colleges have perfect price discrimination.

https://www.economist.com/economics-a-to-z/p#node-21529500

 

Link if you want to look up the term. They have figured out a way to charge you the maximum amount you will pay by basing it on your income. They are even allowed access to all your financial records! Imagine if a car salesman said, "I'll tell you how much this car costs AFTER I look at all your finances." ! 😳

They just overcharge and then say they will "aid" you in paying. 🙄 It is the pretty much a racket.  Very few people pay full price. Many refuse to even pay the discounted price since colleges want to take everything you have. Yes, they will leave parents enough to pay a mortgage and some food but forget everything else including retirement! 

It really is disheartening to kids who may not know how to sneak through the system many probably give up before starting. It is a waste of time and energy to see through the lies and sometimes it is trickery and you still end up with debt. 

It reminds me of our health care system.  

 

 

 

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, frogger said:

I'm a little confused on your numbers. 

https://admissions.umich.edu/costs-aid/costs

But my main point was going to be that colleges have perfect price discrimination.

https://www.economist.com/economics-a-to-z/p#node-21529500

 

Link if you want to look up the term. They have figured out a way to charge you the maximum amount you will pay by basing it on your income. They are even allowed access to all your financial records! Imagine if a car salesman said, "I'll tell you how much this car costs AFTER I look at all your finances." ! 😳

They just overcharge and then say they will "aid" you in paying. 🙄 It is the pretty much a racket.  Very few people pay full price. Many refuse to even pay the discounted price since colleges want to take everything you have. Yes, they will leave parents enough to pay a mortgage and some food but forget everything else including retirement! 

It really is disheartening to kids who may not know how to sneak through the system many probably give up before starting. It is a waste of time and energy to see through the lies and sometimes it is trickery and you still end up with debt. 

It reminds me of our health care system.  

 

 

 

I just did a quick Google of " U of MI in state tuition and fees 2002/23" and that was the number that came up from, oh boy, was it college confidential? niche? net price? Okay, can't remember. I do know that if our youngest were relegated to a fifth year at his institution (thank goodness he is graduating on time), the price increase was going to be staggering! I really don't know how this can continue.

Sorry if I was wrong about the number.

[frogger]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

I just did a quick Google of " U of MI in state tuition and fees 2002/23" and that was the number that came up from, oh boy, was it college confidential? niche? net price? Okay, can't remember. I do know that if our youngest were relegated to a fifth year at his institution (thank goodness he is graduating on time), the price increase was going to be staggering! I really don't know how this can continue.

Sorry if I was wrong about the number.

No problem. I was just confused for a minute but the point that sticker price is crazy still stands! 

My main point was the price discrimination and opaqueness of the system. I think we can all agree it is beyond frustrating!