Puritanical college prep & sheltering teens

[Katy]

Have you guys noticed sheltering kids getting taken to the extreme? When did parents decide sheltering kids is better than preparing them to be adults? I don’t mean culty fundamentalists, I mean kids in regular high schools. 

An adult-themed college prep writing class in Ohio uses a book of writing prompts. Included in the book are some questions about personal sexual experiences (that were never used in class). Parents are in an uproar, calling it pornographic and they’re angry that the class touches on themes of sex, murder, or intoxication  because they claim it’s not appropriate for a college prep course.

Teachers are planning on quitting because the puritanical atmosphere means they can’t possibly prepare kids for being adults in an age of Tinder.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/09/controversial-book-of-writing-prompts-takes-center-stage-at-hudson-board-of-education-meeting.html?outputType=amp

There was also a series of videos on Mama Doctor Jones about an Alaska school board trying to ban her IMHO completely appropriate and accurate videos from being used in sex ed because she discussed the morning after pill and why it’s important to continue to provide gynecology care to transgender men. 

[Eos]

I also wouldn't want to write about or have my kids write about some of those prompts in the article due to safety and mental health concerns, but I want to imagine a healthy and whole society where speaking, writing, and teaching about any subject was liberatory, not terrifying.

[KSera]

I would have issue with some of the prompts described if they were used in class, but it sounds like they weren’t. I think it would be totally inappropriate for a teacher to ask minors to describe their sexual experiences in a paper for the teacher to read, but fortunately, it doesn’t sound like that was happening. 
 

I do think there’s a better middle ground than what I’m currently seeing on both sides. Kids need to be taught good, accurate information about sex and relationships but they also don’t need to have casual sex made into a no big deal nothing that they feel weird if they’re not having. 

[Dmmetler]

I think that’s the direction it’s going, and it’s going to set kids up for some really horrible experiences. 
 

What’s more, it’s going to be really hard to find teachers if even things not actually taught in class add up for scrutiny. 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Dmmetler

[Jean in Newcastle]

I never ever wrote about sexual experiences etc. in university.  Instead I wrote essays about Shakespeare, Russian history, and various other university level content areas that were covered by class.  I'm more bothered by the fact that they would need a writing prompt.  (Even in my university writing class we didn't have writing prompts per se but we asked to write a personal essay or a persuasive paper etc.) 

[Jean in Newcastle]

PS - at my college prep boarding school we wrote the same sort of essays and papers as we did in university.  So it's not like those sorts of things are necessary. 

[vonfirmath]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I never ever wrote about sexual experiences etc. in university.  Instead I wrote essays about Shakespeare, Russian history, and various other university level content areas that were covered by class.  I'm more bothered by the fact that they would need a writing prompt.  (Even in my university writing class we didn't have writing prompts per se but we asked to write a personal essay or a persuasive paper etc.) 

This is what I was thinking. We didn't have prompts like this in my own college prep classes nor was I ever expected, in Honors English classes in college, to talk about private issues like this.

 

[SKL]

It's always hard to know exactly what's happening.  From what I read at the time, it sounded like parents overreacted.  But I don't necessarily believe everything I read on either side.

I understand that obviously sex is real life and teens need to know that.  I myself went to college at 16 and heard a lot of things I didn't expect to hear, and it didn't damage me.  It mainly just annoyed me that according to certain English profs, pretty much every poem and every instance of imagery in literature was about sex.  But I had a mind of my own even as a teen.  (Even my college biology teacher was a bit over the top with how he demonstrated pollination with his body, but that's probably a whole other discussion.)

In the here and now ... my kids are taking general 10th grade world history.  They had to read something that discussed Hitler's sexual preferences, in terms that made them feel uncomfortable (and they are NOT puritans).  I don't think that's necessary.  I've managed to get all the way to age 55 without needing to ponder whether Hitler preferred to be top or bottom in bed.  So yeah, I do think it's a bit much and no, I don't think there's a good reason to discuss that with kids under the legal age of consent.

[MercyA]

Yeah, I'm not liking a book that asks underage kids to write about their first orgasm or "sex they wouldn't tell their parents about." I understand these prompts were not used, but surely they can find another book to use to teach writing? There are plenty of other things in the world about which to write.

Asking the school board to resign over this and threatening legal action is just foolish, but I understand parents expressing concern.

Edited February 14, 2022 by MercyA

[SKL]

Just now, MercyA said:

Yeah, I'm not liking a book which asks underage kids to write about their first orgasm or sex they wouldn't tell their parents about. I understand these prompts were not used, but surely they can find another book to use to teach writing? There are plenty of other things in the world about which to write.

Asking the school board to resign over this and threatening legal action is just foolish, but I understand parents expressing concern.

Yeah, I think it suggests that whoever chose the book was lazy.  It doesn't follow that the entire school district is trying to pimp out our kids.

[bolt.]

It seems to me that the book of writing prompts was used as a resource by a teacher (or teachers) who had the brains to select prompts that suited the age of their students and ignore the parts of the resource that weren't relevant. There's no problem with that.

However, I would have a problem if I encountered that book and thought/assumed that my student was *actually* being asked to write about personal sexual experiences in a school context for a teacher to read.

To me the whole thing can be cleared up by the teacher(s) saying, "We don't use all of the prompts from that book. We select a few. I can provide a list of the ones we have actually used, this year and in the past, if that would be helpful. As teachers we are aware that students should not be asked to write about sexual experiences in a classroom context. Prompts of a personal sexual nature are never used." -- And the objecting parents being able to believe a statement like that.

I don't think it's "puritanical" or "sheltering" to see a problem *if* such prompts really were being used.

I see it as a flaw of information that even once it was revealed that they were not being used, parents continued to object to their presence in a teacher's source book and/or a classroom resource. (And that they accelerated to calling for school board firings and other absurd overreach.)

[SKL]

I should add that my kids thought Ethan Frome was inappropriate required reading when they were 14yo, and I agree.  There are hundreds if not thousands of classics whose theme isn't plotting adultery followed by attempting suicide.  Ugh.  I'm not trying to get people fired over it, but I think it's a poor use of our kids' academic time at the very least.

Edited February 14, 2022 by SKL

[vonfirmath]

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

I should add that my kids thought Ethan From was inappropriate required reading when they were 14yo, and I agree.  There are hundreds if not thousands of classics whose theme isn't plotting adultery followed by attempting suicide.  Ugh.  I'm not trying to get people fired over it, but I think it's a poor use of our kids' academic time at the very least.

My daughter's teacher (Fifth grade) left at the break and they have had rotating instructional aides. Last week they got a long term substitute ("two months") who decided it was appropriate to play, at lunchtime (They have to eat in the class half the time to make more room in the cafeteria), some youtuber who films himself eating massive amounts of food.  She came home and told me about it and I was VERY concerned and about to go to the administration until she said she didn't want me to (UGH) and that she could cope. Even though he used some bad language. I was still trying to figure out how to get this information to the administration (When I was on the PTO, we could not show ANYTHING without approving it through the principal, etc... but all the principalls, front office staff, etc has changed since I worked with them.)  but luckily (in a way) the teacher who was being inappropriate in one way was also making inappropriate choices in other ways. AND my daughter overcame her desire to NOT be identified as the one who complained and went to the office Friday to let them know she was afraid to go to class and this sub is now GONE.

 

ETA: I hope gone from the district. But for now I am just happy he is not welcome to return to her elementary school.

Edited February 14, 2022 by vonfirmath

[KSera]

35 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

This is what I was thinking. We didn't have prompts like this in my own college prep classes nor was I ever expected, in Honors English classes in college, to talk about private issues like this.

 

My dh did have one community college English professor who had an inappropriate fixation on talking about this kind of thing and trying to get students to do so as well. She would also walk around the room and sit on desks of the guys in the room. Dh found it very bizarre and inappropriate. 

[Katy]

I didn’t take college human sexuality courses but people in my dorm who did were prompted to write about sex, though they had a choice to make it personal or based on the reading material. I found the personal questions off putting, but I’m sure it happens. 

Of course it’s inappropriate and probably not legal to ask minors to write on those experiences, but since that didn’t happen I do find it puritanical. 

[KungFuPanda]

Why are parents so involved? That’s just weird. But also, friggin Cleveland. I was born there. I have family there.  They’ve been making the news for all the wrong reasons for the last several years. 

[vonfirmath]

14 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Why are parents so involved? That’s just weird. But also, friggin Cleveland. I was born there. I have family there.  They’ve been making the news for all the wrong reasons for the last several years. 

Parents ought to be involved in what their kids are being taught.

 

[Bootsie]

11 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Why are parents so involved? That’s just weird. But also, friggin Cleveland. I was born there. I have family there.  They’ve been making the news for all the wrong reasons for the last several years. 

Why is it weird for parents to be involved in their children's education?  Or, why would it be weird for taxpayers to be involved in having some say in what the schools that their taxpayer dollars are funding doing?  

Pesronally, I do not think some of those prompts are appropriate to be used in a book for high school students.  Many good tools exist for teaching writing.  As far as students needing to be prepared for the world with Tinder or needing sex education, that is not the role of a high school writing class.   

[Kassia]

nm

Edited February 14, 2022 by Kassia

[prairiewindmomma]

I think what I find frustrating are that stories like this (where there may be some larger issues about inappropriately) are distracting and muddling the horror of some of the actual bills going through state legislatures right now like in Texas, Virginia, and Kansas.

Some Texans are arguing that using the "Parental Rights" section of the state education code, parents should be able to determine whether students should be failed/passed on a grade level and that teachers should be banned if they introduce
"obscene" instructional materials https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/26/greg-abbott-parental-bill-of-rights/ https://www.chron.com/politics/article/Texas-Parental-Bill-of-Rights-Greg-Abbott-schools-16791504.php?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR2Yb4si7oa28HwlbUTTY03wyq8jotTxfZVWMxK7i1fCth2NS1HHyA_c2aU

Virginia's new governor, Glenn Youngkin, attempted to ban the teaching of critical race theory through executive order, even though critical race theory is not taught in K-12 schools. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/16/virginia-governor-glenn-youngkin-sworn-into-office-critical-race-theory

Kansas has Senate Bill 393: https://openstates.org/ks/bills/2021-2022/SB393/  which would require the school district to list all materials used in a year, all activities used in student instruction, and penalties for failing to do so. Can you imagine teachers having to fully write out lesson plans a year in advance, and never deviate from doing so? 

[Frances]

13 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Why is it weird for parents to be involved in their children's education?  Or, why would it be weird for taxpayers to be involved in having some say in what the schools that their taxpayer dollars are funding doing?  

Pesronally, I do not think some of those prompts are appropriate to be used in a book for high school students.  Many good tools exist for teaching writing.  As far as students needing to be prepared for the world with Tinder or needing sex education, that is not the role of a high school writing class.   

I wouldn’t be ok with some of the prompts being used in class, but I’m fine with them being in the book that is used for the class. Since it’s a college prep class and the parents need to sign a waiver, it seems that if parents have concerns about what is in any of the books and how it is or isn’t used in class, they could ask before signing the permission slip. 
 

It wasn’t clear to me from the article if those complaining even have kids in the class or whether this was just another way for some to stir up division and show political solidarity.

[Scarlett]

I honestly think kids need MORE sheltering now than ever before.  Although the word sheltering implies ignorance and I am not for that.....I think kids need to be told there is a lot of bad crap out there and be given tools to avoid it and run away from it when they encounter it.

For instance, this writing class......I would encourage my child to avoid such prompts, but I would not go make a big scene at the school board meeting or on FB groups like I see every. single. day.  

And I do believe parents should be involved in THEIR child's education.....But not trying to micromanage the public school system.  That is not how it is suppose to work, IMO.  If you think they public schools are that misaligned with your values, then pull them out and teach them yourself.  OTOH, I don't think schools need to be teaching about Tinder and suggesting kids write about a sexual experience.

Everything is a mess y'all.

[KSera]

52 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

Why are parents so involved? That’s just weird.

 

I don’t think that aspect is inappropriate at the high school level at all. If I were in Virginia for example, and my kid was in a class where they took Gov Youngkin to heart and only taught history in a way that would eliminate any potential for discomfort on the part of white kids and thus returned to the history books they were using until the 70s, which sang the joys of how happy life was for slaves, absolutely the school would be hearing what I thought about it. I don’t think parents just have to accept whatever crud the schools teach their kids no matter what. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

Why are parents so involved? That’s just weird.

I think it's good to have parents as a check on what the schools do, because as we've seen, schools can go overboard in both directions at times.

My local school district posts newly chosen curricula on its facebook page and invites parents to comment if they want to.

I think that if parents feel the system is transparent and open to parents' views, they are less likely to be suspicious and act paranoid.  Of course you'll always have a few nut jobs on the fringes, but that goes with the territory when you're supposed to be serving every family in the community.

Edited February 14, 2022 by SKL

[prairiewindmomma]

Our school district does the same. They recently adopted a new curricula for the district and had an open house with samples available from the top three contenders for parents to review and comment on. It was an additional form of feedback more accessible than attending the curricula selection committee meeting (which is always open).

The district likewise mails out links to the sex Ed materials and notifies parents one week before those materials are taught and gives us opt out paperwork.

There have generally been all kinds of mechanisms available for review and comment. The organized attack on schools through political means like I linked above has less to do with appropriate parental oversight and more to do with culture wars and control of narrative.

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

Parents ought to be involved in what their kids are being taught.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

Why is it weird for parents to be involved in their children's education?  Or, why would it be weird for taxpayers to be involved in having some say in what the schools that their taxpayer dollars are funding doing?  

Pesronally, I do not think some of those prompts are appropriate to be used in a book for high school students.  Many good tools exist for teaching writing.  As far as students needing to be prepared for the world with Tinder or needing sex education, that is not the role of a high school writing class.   

 

30 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don’t think that aspect is inappropriate at the high school level at all. If I were in Virginia for example, and my kid was in a class where they took Gov Youngkin to heart and only taught history in a way that would eliminate any potential for discomfort on the part of white kids and thus returned to the history books they were using until the 70s, which sang the joys of how happy life was for slaves, absolutely the school would be hearing what I thought about it. I don’t think parents just have to accept whatever crud the schools teach their kids no matter what. 

 

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think it's good to have parents as a check on what the schools do, because as we've seen, schools can go overboard in both directions at times.

My local school district posts newly chosen curricula on its facebook page and invites parents to comment if they want to.

I think that if parents feel the system is transparent and open to parents' views, they are less likely to be suspicious and act paranoid.  Of course you'll always have a few nut jobs on the fringes, but that goes with the territory when you're supposed to be serving every family in the community.

Sorry everyone. I thought this was a college class. Ignore me. I’m mid-project and must have skimmed. 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

 

 

Sorry everyone. I thought this was a college class. Ignore me. I’m mid-project and must have skimmed. 

It is a college class that high school students are taking. 

[Terabith]

I'm all for parents being involved in their children's educations, but I will admit the current educational environment has about convinced me not to go back into teaching.  I don't want to be arrested because I brought in a picture book to read to a class that someone disapproves of or because my lesson plans needed tweaking sometime post July 1.  

[SKL]

Just now, KungFuPanda said:

Sorry everyone. I thought this was a college class. Ignore me. I’m mid-project and must have skimmed. 

I would totally agree with you if it was a college class.  🙂

(Actually I think the course was designed for college but taught at the high school to high school aged students.  So sort of in-between.  But with the intended audience being largely underage, better decisions could have been made.)

[Melissa Louise]

A sexual writing prompt is inappropriate at all levels.

I don't think that's sheltering. It's maintaining professional boundaries between student and teacher. 

Sounds like the prompts weren't set, which is good, but what the heck kind of resource is the school using that includes sexual writing prompts, even as an option?!

 

 

 

[Farrar]

If you let your high schooler take a college course, it will have college material. Period.

There's nothing inherently lazy about writing prompts. Professional writers use writing exercises and prompts sometimes. Good grief. Find a better line of attack.

The students were never assigned the couple of prompts about sexuality in a book of more than 600. No one "forced minors to write about orgasms."

In terms of the question at hand aside from the specific case, I see two things.

One, there is an epidemic of book banning and burning right now in the name of "protecting the children." Most of it is absolutely absurd and offensive. This is one dopey book. Maybe it's a good choice, maybe not. But clearly this is on trend.

Two, the issue I see is coupling both puritanical morals with protecting kids from real world tasks. I think even a couple of decades ago and certainly farther back, there were absolutely just as many if not more families puritanically sheltering kids. There's nothing new here. I mean, y'all are homeschoolers. Y'all know sheltered. But what does seem new to me is that some of these families are the same families whose kids also don't know how to do any practical adult tasks and won't be expected to for many years to come. The number of teens driving is down, with jobs is down. They don't make their own phone calls for appointments, send in their own college applications, pay their first taxes, know how to mend a pair of pants, how to cook dinner, how to balance a checkbook... There's a lot of serious helplessness on a number of different types of fronts.

[SKL]

And this brings up a question as to whether or not it's reasonable to really treat high school kids exactly like college kids.  College students have a lot more freedom than high school kids.  If I am disgusted by something in a college class, I can get up and walk out, I can usually substitute a different course (or one taught by a different teacher), and if I'm uncomfortable enough, I can walk away down the street and never come back.  Minor high school kids don't have the same rights, so is it really fair to say they have to suck it up if they are made very uncomfortable?

It's one thing to teach legitimately necessary college level material in a college level class.  As others have said, we managed to get pretty educated without ever having to write about sex!  (Personally I would not have known how even as a grad student!)  Courses should be designed for the intended audience, and there needs to be recourse if that doesn't happen.

[Melissa Louise]

I'm not sure why ppl would be fine with it in college. 

In college, there are two places ppl might write about their sexual experiences. In the creative writing program, or in the gender studies program. I can't speak to gs but although it's ok for students to write about sex, among other things, in a creative writing program, you don't get prompts like that from a prompt book  (!!!) and a lecturer should never be presenting a sexual experience prompt to students. Again, professional boundaries.

Finally, trauma informed teaching, anyone? 

I can guarantee, for teachers who want to deliver writing prompts, there are a gazillion resources out there that don't include writing about sex in high school. A bucketful. Lazy programming. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm not sure why ppl would be fine with it in college. 

In college, there are two places ppl might write about their sexual experiences. In the creative writing program, or in the gender studies program. I can't speak to gs but although it's ok for students to write about sex, among other things, in a creative writing program, you don't get prompts (!!!) and a lecturer should never be presenting a sexual experience prompt to students. Again, professional boundaries.

Finally, trauma informed teaching, anyone? 

I can guarantee, for teachers who want to deliver writing prompts, there are a gazillion resources out there that don't include writing about sex in high school. A bucketful. Lazy programming.

What I was agreeing with was that parents shouldn't be getting involved at the college level.  A traditional college student normally has the ability to speak up for him/herself.

Edited February 14, 2022 by SKL

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

Have you guys noticed sheltering kids getting taken to the extreme? When did parents decide sheltering kids is better than preparing them to be adults? I don’t mean culty fundamentalists, I mean kids in regular high schools. 

An adult-themed college prep writing class in Ohio uses a book of writing prompts. Included in the book are some questions about personal sexual experiences (that were never used in class). Parents are in an uproar, calling it pornographic and they’re angry that the class touches on themes of sex, murder, or intoxication  because they claim it’s not appropriate for a college prep course.

Teachers are planning on quitting because the puritanical atmosphere means they can’t possibly prepare kids for being adults in an age of Tinder.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/09/controversial-book-of-writing-prompts-takes-center-stage-at-hudson-board-of-education-meeting.html?outputType=amp

There was also a series of videos on Mama Doctor Jones about an Alaska school board trying to ban her IMHO completely appropriate and accurate videos from being used in sex ed because she discussed the morning after pill and why it’s important to continue to provide gynecology care to transgender men. 

Thinking material isn't appropriate for a public school classroom is not the same as sheltering children.

This is a writing class? Writing in college is specific, not random. The best way to prepare students for college, IMO, is to have them write in all of their subject classes on relevant material. In that respect, I agree that random writing prompts aren't appropriate. I mean, even in my intro college English composition, assignments were for the type of paper we had to write and we could come up with subjects on our own. For example, I wrote a persuasive essay (that was the assignment) on my own idea that McDonald's was marketed primarily to children, using the clown, other characters, happy meals, toys, play areas and commercial content as supporting material (Why I remember this decades later is anyone's guess - I also remember details about papers I wrote in high school).

Questions asking students' about their personal sexual experiences are never appropriate - think about that. Students writing highly personal information that could be read by anyone. Adult teachers reading about the sexual experiences of their young, teen age students. In no world is that appropriate. In this case, I think that would disqualify the book even if the students never used that prompt. It shows a lack of regard for the students and honestly, for the teachers, too.

When my son started taking writing classes from other people, I told him that if he were ever asked to write on a personal topic, that he was free to make up a story. A teacher giving a journal prompt or an essay prompt about a student's personal life doesn't entitle that teacher to personal information. Kids don't know they can say no. Teachers are not equipped to shepherd students through difficult situations. Students shouldn't be required to bare their souls.

Sex ed has always been controversial. That's nothing new. It will always be controversial.

This is a quote from the article - frankly, this is for health class, not social studies class. I realize these are social issues, but they are primarily health & safety issues.

"Hudson High School social studies teacher Marty Bach, who teaches a class about relationships and issues of consent, sexual assault, toxic relationships and dating violence, made an impassioned statement about his concerns, noting that parents have always been aware and supportive of the content included in his course."

High school isn't all that prepares children for life after high school. They have families, hobbies, friends, and some have jobs. All of it works together to shape people.

If schools are giving students writing prompts on personal subjects, they need to be prepared for the fall out. Mental health issues are at extremely high levels in our schools right now. Teachers are not mental health professionals. Using prompts that request personal information but don't allow for processing or counseling for difficult topics that can arise is asking a lot of the students. They are opening a can of worms with no way to take care of the kids in their care.

Yes, if my high school kid had come home with that book, I would complain as well. If they want advanced classes to prepare kids for college, then they can teach AP classes.

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

I'm stunned when people don't understand the difference, in college, between a student choosing to write about a sexual experience, and a lecturer presenting a sexual experience prompt. 

Clearly, not everyone has experienced the fairly widespread - let's say blurring - of professional boundaries between tertiary student and the type of lecturer who'd think it was Very Cool to give s sexual experience prompt. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, SKL said:

What I was agreeing with was that parents shouldn't be getting involved at the college level.  A traditional college student normally has the ability to speak up for him/herself.

No, parents shouldn't have anything to do with college, I agree. 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm stunned when people don't understand the difference, in college, between a student choosing to write about a sexual experience, and a lecturer presenting a sexual experience prompt. 

Clearly, not everyone has experienced the fairly widespread - let's say blurring - of professional boundaries between tertiary student and the type of lecturer who'd think it was Very Cool to give s sexual experience prompt. 

You're right, I haven't experienced that.  I would in no way be OK with that at any age.

They say the prompts were not used.  *They say.*  People can say whatever they want - that doesn't prove anything.  The book was a poor choice in the curriculum.

[Bootsie]

18 minutes ago, Katy said:

It is a college class that high school students are taking. 

It is in association with a college, but it is a class of high school students taking a course at the high school with a high school teacher.  I am not in favor of these types of setups for a number of reasons, but I think it is misleading to consider it a college class.  It is really more of a high school class, designed for and offered to high school students, for which college credit is being given.  

[Melissa Louise]

@TechWife raises a really good point. 

You are going to get disclosures with that type of prompt. You just will.

Abuse, rape, disassociation, pressure, coercion, physical harm - then what will you do? 

It's unethical to elicit a disclosure and then ignore it. So who will you refer to? 

I'd never set these prompts because I'd know a sig % of my students may disclose or have experienced sexual trauma, and the mh care to support them if my Very Cool prompt backfired for a student, isn't there. 

[Melissa Louise]

59 minutes ago, SKL said:

You're right, I haven't experienced that.  I would in no no way be OK with that at any age.

They say the prompts were not used.  *They say.*  People can say whatever they want - that doesn't prove anything.  The book was a poor choice in the curriculum.

Yes, the book was a poor choice. Other books are available. School should just walk it back. 

*I was wrong. It's fine as a resource for the teacher. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Melissa Louise
B/c I was wrong

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Y'all know sheltered. But what does seem new to me is that some of these families are the same families whose kids also don't know how to do any practical adult tasks and won't be expected to for many years to come. The number of teens driving is down, with jobs is down. They don't make their own phone calls for appointments, send in their own college applications, pay their first taxes, know how to mend a pair of pants, how to cook dinner, how to balance a checkbook... There's a lot of serious helplessness on a number of different types of fronts.

I agree this is true, but I think the reasons are a lot more complicated. It doesn't seem to me related to sheltering, but to something else happening with young people. It seems related in many ways to the very high rates of anxiety in young people. (Though I put your examples above into two categories--driving, making phone calls, applying for college is one kind of thing, cooking dinner, managing money, mending pants is another. The former are the type that seem part of widespread anxiety-related issues while the latter seem to be just a lack of those things being expected or taught to kids. Perhaps in part because of how busy kids are with school and activities, making it difficult to find time to teach the other things?

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

And this brings up a question as to whether or not it's reasonable to really treat high school kids exactly like college kids.  College students have a lot more freedom than high school kids.  If I am disgusted by something in a college class, I can get up and walk out, I can usually substitute a different course (or one taught by a different teacher), and if I'm uncomfortable enough, I can walk away down the street and never come back.  Minor high school kids don't have the same rights, so is it really fair to say they have to suck it up if they are made very uncomfortable?

There seems a difference to me if it's a college in the highschool class where the class is taught at the highschool to kids who are all highschool age, vs if it's a class at the college that a high school student is dual enrolled in. For the reasons you give, a college class being taught at the high school with the similar requirements of a regular high school class (like not being able to walk out) doesn't seem that it is reasonable to treat the kids exactly like college students.

[vonfirmath]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm stunned when people don't understand the difference, in college, between a student choosing to write about a sexual experience, and a lecturer presenting a sexual experience prompt. 

Clearly, not everyone has experienced the fairly widespread - let's say blurring - of professional boundaries between tertiary student and the type of lecturer who'd think it was Very Cool to give s sexual experience prompt. 

This is what I felt the sub was doing in my daughter's class -- blurring of boundaries that should NOT be blurred.  And honestly after seeing it once and what else was happening that I didn't realize, next time I'll be in the office after the FIRST blur of boundaries and not wait for it to get so out of control. I didn't want to rock the boat because I know they are having problems getting subs, it was not "that bad" etc.

 

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, the book was a poor choice. Other books are available. School should just walk it back. 

And the outcome would be different if someone up the chain had said "you know, I have looked at this book and I agree it isn't appropriate for our school population.  We're pulling this book and will choose something different."

But no, they took the position that the world needs these kinds of writing prompts in order for the earth to keep turning.  BS.

[Kassia]

26 minutes ago, SKL said:

I would totally agree with you if it was a college class.  🙂

(Actually I think the course was designed for college but taught at the high school to high school aged students.  So sort of in-between.  But with the intended audience being largely underage, better decisions could have been made.)

 

7 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

It is in association with a college, but it is a class of high school students taking a course at the high school with a high school teacher.  I am not in favor of these types of setups for a number of reasons, but I think it is misleading to consider it a college class.  It is really more of a high school class, designed for and offered to high school students, for which college credit is being given.  

 

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, the book was a poor choice. Other books are available. School should just walk it back. 

This is a DE class taught at the high school and parents had to sign a form acknowledging that there could be adult material assigned due to it being college level.  So it's different than an AP class designed for high school students.  I'm not saying that there isn't plenty of good material available that isn't questionable but I do think parents were informed that something like this could happen.  And the students weren't assigned any of the controversial work either.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

And the outcome would be different if someone up the chain had said "you know, I have looked at this book and I agree it isn't appropriate for our school population.  We're pulling this book and will choose something different."

But no, they took the position that the world needs these kinds of writing prompts in order for the earth to keep turning.  BS.

The world does not need those prompts. 

I am no puritan. I wrote about sex in my creative writing program. The idea, however, that it would have been elicited from me via tutor prompt?

Not ok. That creates an expectation the student should write about sex.There is a power imbalance between tutor and student that has to be taken into account here. 

There were people in my class who never wrote about sex, and were not worse writers for it. That's as it should be. 

 

[TechWife]

15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm stunned when people don't understand the difference, in college, between a student choosing to write about a sexual experience, and a lecturer presenting a sexual experience prompt. 

Clearly, not everyone has experienced the fairly widespread - let's say blurring - of professional boundaries between tertiary student and the type of lecturer who'd think it was Very Cool to give s sexual experience prompt. 

That "blurring" of professional boundaries has always been inappropriate. It is becoming increasingly unacceptable and people are speaking out about it more than ever. Good for them. We shouldn't accept the status quo when the status quo is unacceptable.

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Kassia said:

 

 

This is a DE class taught at the high school and parents had to sign a form acknowledging that there could be adult material assigned due to it being college level.  So it's different than an AP class designed for high school students.  I'm not saying that there isn't plenty of good material available that isn't questionable but I do think parents were informed that something like this could happen.  And the students weren't assigned any of the controversial work either.

Yes, the parents signed a consent form. But no one in their right mind would expect prompts like that in a book for a composition class. It's material that is inappropriate for a composition class no matter where it is taught or what age the students are.

[SKL]

Just now, Kassia said:

This is a DE class taught at the high school and parents had to sign a form acknowledging that there could be adult material assigned due to it being college level.  So it's different than an AP class designed for high school students.  I'm not saying that there isn't plenty of good material available that isn't questionable but I do think parents were informed that something like this could happen.  And the students weren't assigned any of the controversial work either.

I've read the parent warnings as my kids are considering doing a college course located at their high school.  The warnings would make me think it could be like the English courses I took in college - which didn't completely avoid the topic of sex, but didn't ever ask students to write about sex (or to consider writing about sex), especially as a personal experience.  So no, I don't think parents or even traditional college students should be expected to accept that without complaint.

So there is a huge difference between having to hear about an adult topic vs potentially being asked to contribute X rated material.

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think what I find frustrating are that stories like this (where there may be some larger issues about inappropriately) are distracting and muddling the horror of some of the actual bills going through state legislatures right now like in Texas, Virginia, and Kansas.

Some Texans are arguing that using the "Parental Rights" section of the state education code, parents should be able to determine whether students should be failed/passed on a grade level and that teachers should be banned if they introduce
"obscene" instructional materials https://www.texastribune.org/2022/01/26/greg-abbott-parental-bill-of-rights/ https://www.chron.com/politics/article/Texas-Parental-Bill-of-Rights-Greg-Abbott-schools-16791504.php?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR2Yb4si7oa28HwlbUTTY03wyq8jotTxfZVWMxK7i1fCth2NS1HHyA_c2aU

Virginia's new governor, Glenn Youngkin, attempted to ban the teaching of critical race theory through executive order, even though critical race theory is not taught in K-12 schools. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/16/virginia-governor-glenn-youngkin-sworn-into-office-critical-race-theory

Kansas has Senate Bill 393: https://openstates.org/ks/bills/2021-2022/SB393/  which would require the school district to list all materials used in a year, all activities used in student instruction, and penalties for failing to do so. Can you imagine teachers having to fully write out lesson plans a year in advance, and never deviate from doing so? 

Adding… Florida's Don’t Say Gay bill. F*cking draconian. 🤬 They know the damage they are causing with all this legislation. It’s by design and it’s beyond dangerous and gross.