Puritanical college prep & sheltering teens

[Murphy101]

9 hours ago, SKL said:

I don't remember ever receiving a  prompt for writing in college.

In my first year of college, I was instructed to write 8 essays about the books we were reading.  They could be about any aspect of any of the books.  In an advanced writing course, again, I was instructed to write 8 essays about anything, to be shared with the class.

My 15yo kids' most recent writing assignment was "inspired by a recent experience you've had, develop, research, and write an informational essay about a topic you consider important."  One of my kids wrote about abuse in sports that use animals.  The other wrote about quality-of-life contrasts between developed and less-developed countries.  No clever prompts necessary.

If a student really can't think of a topic, then the teacher could suggest googling "writing prompts."

This was always how English assignments were in my high school and cc classes.  Same for my husband. My kids have similar writing exercises in Seton, Kolbe, Writing with ease/skill From Bauer.  And most teachers gave a quick statement about knowing your audience that went something like -  in class assignments were not proper venues for expressing things better suited to confessions with a priest or therapist.  This was not an environment conductive to bearing one’s soul nor were the teachers and students the audience trained in handling that, so please save that for your personal diary and therapy.

I get that there are crappy schools with crappy unstaffed and underpaid teachers - that doesn’t make them a good standard to measure by.

I am all for teachers refusing to do work outside their contracted obligation.  I am all for teacher strikes to change things. 

[SKL]

Yeah I don't think there's anything evil about writing prompts, but I also don't think the world will stop turning without them.

The idea that issuing students a book of writing prompts is necessary to a literate society is ridiculous.  Some of the posts here catastrophize the questioning of this book as if this is the end of civilization.  Really we do not need this book.  Both sides are being ridiculous IMO.

Edited February 16, 2022 by SKL

[Murphy101]

I do not have an issue with writing prompts done well. They should be specific with a clear goal to making the student use whatever writing concept is being focused on with an understanding of audience appropriateness, which is also an important writing skill to develop. 

[Danae]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah I don't think there's anything evil about writing prompts, but I also don't think the world will stop turning without them.

The idea that issuing students a book of writing prompts is necessary to a literate society is ridiculous.  Some of the posts here catastrophize the questioning of this book as if this is the end of civilization.  Really we do not need this book.  Both sides are being ridiculous IMO.

The same is true of any book. There’s always another book that could be used, but the people whose job it is to pick the books picked this one.

 Maybe there were one or two prompts in it they really liked. Maybe they were on clearance so they got a really good deal and the book budget went further.  Maybe the teacher is brand new and panicked at the thought of coming up with 40 prompts on his own.  Or maybe she’s been teaching for 40 years and is tired of reading papers on the same topics and wanted a change of pace.  Whatever the reason, “there are other resources/ways this could be done” isn’t enough, in my opinion, to sanction or overrule the people actually doing the work.

 

[BlsdMama]

11 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Sure would be - but that isn't what happened nor what is being discussed. At all. 

 

While  I did not read the 7 pages of discussion - it was indeed directly related to the original post.

On 2/14/2022 at 12:24 PM, Katy said:

Have you guys noticed sheltering kids getting taken to the extreme? When did parents decide sheltering kids is better than preparing them to be adults? I don’t mean culty fundamentalists, I mean kids in regular high schools. 

An adult-themed college prep writing class in Ohio uses a book of writing prompts. Included in the book are some questions about personal sexual experiences (that were never used in class). Parents are in an uproar, calling it pornographic and they’re angry that the class touches on themes of sex, murder, or intoxication  because they claim it’s not appropriate for a college prep course.

 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Danae said:

The same is true of any book. There’s always another book that could be used, but the people whose job it is to pick the books picked this one.

 Maybe there were one or two prompts in it they really liked. Maybe they were on clearance so they got a really good deal and the book budget went further.  Maybe the teacher is brand new and panicked at the thought of coming up with 40 prompts on his own.  Or maybe she’s been teaching for 40 years and is tired of reading papers on the same topics and wanted a change of pace.  Whatever the reason, “there are other resources/ways this could be done” isn’t enough, in my opinion, to sanction or overrule the people actually doing the work.

 

Well the other sub-thread is the recognition that just labeling a class as "college" does not change its nature enough if it's still on a high school campus, full of high school students, and said students are subject to all the rules applicable to high school classes.  Maybe it's time for the education system to recognize this.

Public high school is a community endeavor and parents are involved in it.

[catz]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

 

Oh yeah, I was MAD when I got to college and realized it was SO much easier than AP classes, lol. 

Having both experiences with DE and AP, at least in our experience, DE wasn't necessarily easier or less rigorous.  But it was absolutely less paperwork, hoop jumping, memorization (and probably classroom time).  It was more self directed.  My kids have had really good rigor in their DE classes so far.  They've also had teachers at free DE classes that are also teaching at places people pay $$$ for on fancy college lists.  The faculty at both CC's my kids have taken classes at are pretty incredible, which is probably more likely if you're in a decent sized metro area.  Faculty/teaching positions are so competitive.

Anyway, my oldest is at a top 15 public university now and still says some of his DE classes/teachers were superior to some classes he has now.  The classes were all small too (like under 25-30 students).   My daughter is doing an online DE class this semester with FIVE students and is really developing a nice relationship with the professor.  I am a huge fan of our state's free DE program.  And it's a huge range of kids that use it - some going into vo-tech work, some hate high school, some want to dip their toes but stay engaged in their high schools, large range of socio-economic levels.  Legally schools here have to allow it but some districts make it harder than others to go back and forth because schools do lose at least partial funding on these students.

My kids writing/comp DE classes were particularly good classes with high expectations.  I don't have particular issues with writing prompts.  I had prompt workbooks back in the day when we were teaching writing at home, sometimes it's just nice to be able to pull something like that.

Edited February 16, 2022 by catz

[TechWife]

14 hours ago, Kassia said:

…

 

I think it depends on the state funding.  Here in OH, ps students get free tuition and books.  When dd started DE, there was no funding for homeschoolers then after that there was minimal funding for tuition but no books.  I ended up enrolling her in ps for the full funding once she was attending DE full time.  She graduated valedictorian and NMF from the high school without ever taking a class there!  Now homeschoolers have better funding but still not as good as ps students.  Oh - ps students are limited to 30 credits per academic year - otherwise everything is covered.  

Here DE students go tuition and fee free, paying only for books. Even the parking fee is covered. There are no limits on how many or what classes DE students can take. The first semester they register last, but after that it’s according to credit hours earned. There is a set of classes that are guaranteed to transfer to a long list of public and private universities, including the state flagship, as long as the student makes a C or better. It is up to the receiving university how the classes are applied to any specific degree program. I know one student who started DE at 15 sand she finished her AS and HS at the same time. She was a good student and the university she then went to accepted all of her credits. She finished her BS in two years and entered the work force debt free. She was one of the few that was able to work her way through college as a full time student by selling at craft shows and playing gigs on weekends (she’s a musician that can play her instrument solo - she did a lot of special occasions & funerals). 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

While  I did not read the 7 pages of discussion - it was indeed directly related to the original post.

 

The part you quoted says in it that the students were never assigned those prompts. Your post was all about how assigning them is bad - and I agree. But they were not assigned, so what is the problem?

[catz]

DE is 100% free here.  You have to meet certain academic requirements to participate (varies by academic institution. )  Books too.  They recently added 10th graders to be able to take a single class, before it was just 11th and 12th, though they allowed some vo-tech path kids to start early.  Homeschoolers qualify without any additional hoop jumping.  How many classes you can take depends on institution too.  The CCs allow full time enrollment.  My junior is doing at least 13 credits this semester (I forget, she is very independent).  Some of the 4 year colleges allow DE but require taking a small number of credits to start and those students register very late so you really need to be flexible with your class times and selections.  ETA classes here seem to be all on college campuses.  I don't know any schools in our metro doing DE classes on a high school campus.  I see why running a college class IN a high schools could blur lines.  DE students are treated exactly like college students, they don't expect or want parental involvement beyond orientation/expectation meetings. 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by catz

[Library Momma]

12 hours ago, Frances said:

My husband took a few required classes (statistics, economics) at the local CC before he went back to grad school. They were both complete jokes. The idea that anyone was getting college credit for either of them was ridiculous. And I’m sure they weren’t even the worse things offered.

Here Community College is not really considered college level for most courses.  There are no DE classes in conjunction with community college so no one would be getting credit for CC classes.

Also I am surprised at people's responses to prompts.  Any exam that has questions where you need to answer in an essay form are basically prompts.  From coursework to AP exams they are everywhere, and across all subjects not just English.  

 

[TechWife]

33 minutes ago, Library Momma said:

Here Community College is not really considered college level for most courses.  There are no DE classes in conjunction with community college so no one would be getting credit for CC classes.

Also I am surprised at people's responses to prompts.  Any exam that has questions where you need to answer in an essay form are basically prompts.  From coursework to AP exams they are everywhere, and across all subjects not just English.  

 

Prompts are appropriate when tailored to the material that has been studied. 

[Murphy101]

32 minutes ago, Library Momma said:

Here Community College is not really considered college level for most courses.  There are no DE classes in conjunction with community college so no one would be getting credit for CC classes.

Also I am surprised at people's responses to prompts.  Any exam that has questions where you need to answer in an essay form are basically prompts.  From coursework to AP exams they are everywhere, and across all subjects not just English.  

 

Here all the local universities accept the CC credits.  Most out of state do as well. Oklahoma is freaking weird. The k -12 system is crap by any reasonable evaluation and getting funding to do anything while in it is a nightmare. It’s not unusual to need a lawyer to force to the school to follow an IEP. Most DE and after school tutoring and learning help is not fully covered by the schools. But colleges here tend to have pretty decent national reputations and be very accessible comparatively to colleges in other states, both state and private. 
 

Yeah. Writing prompts are normal. This book should not be a litmus for what is a normal and reasonable writing prompt.

[skimomma]

It's crazy how much DE differs from one place to the next.  In my state, DE is only partially covered for public school students, based on the tuition price of the institution that is being used.  Homeschoolers must pay 100% out of pocket.  Public school students have school-specific rules as to how many and what DE classes they may take.  My homeschooled dd took DE classes at two schools and neither had any limits on age or number of credits.  She could have enrolled full time if she wanted.  She did have to take placement exams for some courses as she did not yet have an ACT/SAT score.  Both prioritized DE students for scheduling.  They got scheduled ahead of regular students.  I am guessing this is because they have to fit into their school's schedule and have less flexibility.  This was great for dd.  And it was a rude awakening once she became a degree-seeking student to learn that she would be shut out of many choice sections due to her lower scheduling priority.

The instructors know who is DE, if they bother to study their class lists carefully enough.  I am guessing many never do unless there is a reason to.  One interesting side-effect of DE was that the other students also don't know who is DE, unless the student discloses it.  This meant, my could-pass-for-18+yo 15 year old was asked out on dates by boys much older than her.  She was also invited to parties and sorority rushes.  We were prepared for that and she handled it well, but if a bunch of parents have their knickers in a knot about writing prompts (that were never even used), it's a good thing their classes are at the high school.  It is not just content that people should consider when consenting to DE classes for their minor children.  They also need to be prepared for the social aspects and things like their kid being paired up in teamwork with traditional students.

All this to say that I stick by my opinion that parents who consent to DE cannot complain about kids being exposed to content/experiences appropriate for college students.  Something like the book of writing prompts we are discussing does not even blip my parental concern radar.

[ktgrok]

43 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Prompts are appropriate when tailored to the material that has been studied. 

I guess it depends on the purpose. I know one of my better highschool English classes usually had us write about the lit we were reading - so examining the use of symbolism for east and west in Medea or whatever. But once a week or two  she had us do free writing, or a silly prompt, not for grading but just to sort of lubricate the brain. But it was for about 10 minutes of class, not a long assignment. Often she'd play music and have us write about something related to it, etc. 

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Library Momma said:

Here Community College is not really considered college level for most courses.  There are no DE classes in conjunction with community college so no one would be getting credit for CC classes.

Your state CCs have no agreements with the state public 4-years for transfer credits?  That's just all kinds of wrong.  Then CC is just job prep for things that need certificates?  No opportunity for kids who are trying to save money and transfer?

Here the CCs have a list of which classes are equivalent at all the in-state public universities, and which will work for gen eds/pre-reqs.  My dd started at 15, and by 18 had her AS in Business which she chose because then she'd also taken care of the first two years of a Business degree at the state flagship, including all her pre-reqs for the upper level classes.  With her CC Business AS, she was also guaranteed transfer admission to not just the flagship university, but its super-highly competitive Business school.  She was able to finish her BA in Accounting in just two more years, because everything was aligned.

In my state DE isn't free, but we do get a 50% discount per class.  As far as I know, it is only available on the college campus, not in high schools.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Matryoshka

[bolt.]

I just want to say that all of this discussion of "DE" has been fascinating.

Here (Alberta, Canada) students finish High School, graduate, then start College or University afterwards. There's no confusing overlap!

[skimomma]

5 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Your state CCs have no agreements with the state public 4-years for transfer credits? 

 

There is no universal transfer agreement between CCs and 4-year schools in my state.  None at all.  There are some partnership programs between some schools, often degree specific.  And most schools will confirm that a class would transfer if you ask beforehand, but even then, you are warned that it could change and might no longer be transferrable at the time of attempted transfer.  The CCs (and public 4-year institutions) in my state are independent institutions and are in no way related to each other and so each has their own policies.  So, if you are attending a CC with the plan to transfer after year two, you had best know exactly what 4-year AND degree program you plan to attend and confirm every case choice with the 4-year as you take them.  It *can* work out nicely if you do the footwork, but the general advice of "just go to CC for two years to save money" only works if you have a careful plan and stick with it.

[Library Momma]

We have an extensive vocational high school system here so most people earning vocational degrees do so through high school programs or possibly trade school after high school.  Community Colleges are limited in their scope (although that is growing) and you may be able to transfer some classes to one of the state colleges, but it used to be few universities would take the transfer credits.   That may be changing a bit too.  

 To put it into perspective I am 52 and I have never met anyone who graduated from a CT community college or even took classes at one.  I know one person who teaches at one and she teaches English to adult non naïve speakers.  Our system is noting like those of many other states although they are trying to grow it.  What most states have for CC more accurately looks like our state college system.  Many students go one or two years at a state college then trying to transfer to UConn (or elsewhere)

Although back to DE - The DE (or ECE) classes in high schools here  are usually either associated with UConn or local private universities.  Not the CC or state colleges.

[ktgrok]

20 minutes ago, Library Momma said:

We have an extensive vocational high school system here so most people earning vocational degrees do so through high school programs or possibly trade school after high school.  Community Colleges are limited in their scope (although that is growing) and you may be able to transfer some classes to one of the state colleges, but it used to be few universities would take the transfer credits.   That may be changing a bit too.  

 To put it into perspective I am 52 and I have never met anyone who graduated from a CT community college or even took classes at one.  I know one person who teaches at one and she teaches English to adult non naïve speakers.  Our system is noting like those of many other states although they are trying to grow it.  What most states have for CC more accurately looks like our state college system.  Many students go one or two years at a state college then trying to transfer to UConn (or elsewhere)

Although back to DE - The DE (or ECE) classes in high schools here  are usually either associated with UConn or local private universities.  Not the CC or state colleges.

CC really varies from state to state. Here, we don't technically even HAVE CCs anymore..they are all technically 4 yr schools, although with VERY limited 4 yr degree offerings. 

For instance, growing up the local "CC" was Palm Beach Junior College. Then it was changed to Palm Beach Community College. Now it is Palm Beach State College. I think they have maybe half a dozen 4 yr offerings, so still mostly a community college in all but name. 

That said, all the "state college"/community college whatever they are called have transfer agreements. In Florida if you get an AS and follow the set guidelines at any CC you are guaranteed admission to a state university, and your credits will transfer. 

[Matryoshka]

11 minutes ago, Library Momma said:

We have an extensive vocational high school system here so most people earning vocational degrees do so through high school programs or possibly trade school after high school.  Community Colleges are limited in their scope (although that is growing) and you may be able to transfer some classes to one of the state colleges, but it used to be few universities would take the transfer credits.   That may be changing a bit too.  

 To put it into perspective I am 52 and I have never met anyone who graduated from a CT community college or even took classes at one.  I know one person who teaches at one and she teaches English to adult non naïve speakers.  Our system is noting like those of many other states although they are trying to grow it.  What most states have for CC more accurately looks like our state college system.  Many students go one or two years at a state college then trying to transfer to UConn (or elsewhere)

Although back to DE - The DE (or ECE) classes in high schools here  are usually either associated with UConn or local private universities.  Not the CC or state colleges.

Huh. Wouldn't have thought our neighbor state to the south would be so different.  MassTransfer here is a great program, you can just go to the site online and look up which classes/degrees have agreements at the 4 UMass campuses, or the 9? state 4-year universities.  Another one of my dcs did DE at the CC, started as a freshman at one of the state universities, then transferred to UMass Amherst.

Since as far as I know all our DE is on-campus, it can't be associated with our flagship way out west.

This is kind of a snobby state and a lot kids from 'better' districts would never be seen dead at a CC, but the more I've seen, the more I've been impressed by them.  They're like Swiss army knives - jump start for younger students,  a soft start for college-aged kids who didn't maybe apply themselves in high school, or who just want to save money,  and a place for retraining and/or vocational programs for adults. My dc who has two humanities BAs is back at CC knocking out prereqs for PT school. 

[Faith-manor]

23 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Your state CCs have no agreements with the state public 4-years for transfer credits?  That's just all kinds of wrong.  Then CC is just job prep for things that need certificates?  No opportunity for kids who are trying to save money and transfer?

Here the CCs have a list of which classes are equivalent at all the in-state public universities, and which will work for gen eds/pre-reqs.  My dd started at 15, and by 18 had her AS in Business which she chose because then she'd also taken care of the first two years of a Business degree at the state flagship, including all her pre-reqs for the upper level classes.  With her CC Business AS, she was also guaranteed transfer admission to not just the flagship university, but its super-highly competitive Business school.  She was able to finish her BA in Accounting in just two more years, because everything was aligned.

In my state DE isn't free, but we do get a 50% discount per class.  As far as I know, it is only available on the college campus, not in high schools.

My state also does not have mandated transfer agreements. It also does not exercise any significant oversight for what constitutes "College Composition" or much else in the Gen Ed department. So saving money by going to CC is not much of a thing. Every single college maintains a list of what they will accept from whom and whether or not that gets the student any further ahead. It gets very tight though for majors that have oversight boards like medical degrees and engineering. So case in point A certain CC on my side of the state advertises two year degrees done in a three year program that high schoolers begin in 11th grade. They do not graduate high school at the regular time. Instead they graduate HS at the same time they complete their A.A./A.S. This is so all of their credits are earned with the state mandated and funded D.E. discount.

Here is the rub. They advertise that they have transfer agreements with all the state universities. Parents and students take that to mean, they can complete BA or BS at a four year university in two years. Ha Ha. Just because university X accepts credit from CC Y, it doesn't mean that it counts for anything in the natural progression to classes from point A to point B. And frankly, it shouldn't because that CC is not doing a good job with their content, scope, and sequence. 

One of our former 4H club member got caught in this. We advised his parents NOT to take the shortcut. Their son wanted to go into the Megatronics A.S. degree and then finish an electrical engineering degree. Problems you ask? Yes. Number one, their program is not ABET certified. That means that not a single science prerequisite nor engineering/tech class at that CC is certified as an equivalency to something termed the same or similar at an ABET certified school. We warned them. "Oh, the school wouldn't lie to us.They said he could transfer to your son's school and only go for two years, and we will save so much money". Hmmmm....here is a thought. When my son took one entire semester three credit class of DC electronics, and then one semester of three credits of AC, how is your son's one semester of three credits of combined DC/AC the equivalency? How? Oh wait. It isn't?

It wasn't just that. Calc 1. You would think " Calc 1, so X Y Z will be covered." Nope. They did not cover the whole scope and sequence of Calc.1 at an abet certified four year university. This kid was absolutely brilliant at mathematics. But because of that class he was unprepared for the math placement test his engineering school of choice gave him, and was relegated back to Calc 1. Now if you are in a 90 credit hour major in an ABET program and you start out of sequence, you are not getting done on time. So he received credit for "Gen Ed math". He did get credit for "Gen Ed" science - his Chem 1 class. But he still had to take chem 1 for engineers (which is deeper than Intro to Chem for non science majors) and he had to take Intro to Physics again because same deal. He went to the four year university for one year after three years of CC, realized he would still need to go to school full time for roughly 6 more semesters because he was so far out of sequence he was starting from scratch, and dropped out in discouragement. Now he has student loans from that year of university, no BS., and found out the Mecatronics degree hasn't produced any decent job openings because the program has so flooded the workforce with graduates that there are far, far, far too many for the number of job openings which were not robust to begin with.

Moral of the story, in my state if the CC offers to good to be true, then it is in fact too good to be true. And this happens with all kinds of CC credits. You really have to super careful that your kid only takes very general, gen ed credits from the CC and nothing that is a prerequisite in their major or minor. So Intro to Psyche for a non psychology/social work major? Sure. Intro to Biology for a nurse? Do.not.do.it.

This mess would stop if CC's were heavily regulated, and scope and sequence for basic coursework was dictated so it was the same from CC to university.

[Library Momma]

My daughter actually attends UMass Amherst and your system is different from ours especially at the university level.  You have multiple individual universities and UConn is just one university.  there are a few satellite campuses but they are essentially part of the same school.  UMass did accept her DE (ECE) credits from UConn that were obtained in the high school classroom.  

 

 

[Matryoshka]

16 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

My state also does not have mandated transfer agreements. It also does not exercise any significant oversight for what constitutes "College Composition" or much else in the Gen Ed department. So saving money by going to CC is not much of a thing. Every single college maintains a list of what they will accept from whom and whether or not that gets the student any further ahead. It gets very tight though for majors that have oversight boards like medical degrees and engineering. So case in point A certain CC on my side of the state advertises two year degrees done in a three year program that high schoolers begin in 11th grade. They do not graduate high school at the regular time. Instead they graduate HS at the same time they complete their A.A./A.S. This is so all of their credits are earned with the state mandated and funded D.E. discount.

Here is the rub. They advertise that they have transfer agreements with all the state universities. Parents and students take that to mean, they can complete BA or BS at a four year university in two years. Ha Ha. Just because university X accepts credit from CC Y, it doesn't mean that it counts for anything in the natural progression to classes from point A to point B. And frankly, it shouldn't because that CC is not doing a good job with their content, scope, and sequence. 

One of our former 4H club member got caught in this. We advised his parents NOT to take the shortcut. Their son wanted to go into the Megatronics A.S. degree and then finish an electrical engineering degree. Problems you ask? Yes. Number one, their program is not ABET certified. That means that not a single science prerequisite nor engineering/tech class at that CC is certified as an equivalency to something termed the same or similar at an ABET certified school. We warned them. "Oh, the school wouldn't lie to us.They said he could transfer to your son's school and only go for two years, and we will save so much money". Hmmmm....here is a thought. When my son took one entire semester three credit class of DC electronics, and then one semester of three credits of AC, how is your son's one semester of three credits of combined DC/AC the equivalency? How? Oh wait. It isn't?

It wasn't just that. Calc 1. You would think " Calc 1, so X Y Z will be covered." Nope. They did not cover the whole scope and sequence of Calc.1 at an abet certified four year university. This kid was absolutely brilliant at mathematics. But because of that class he was unprepared for the math placement test his engineering school of choice gave him, and was relegated back to Calc 1. Now if you are in a 90 credit hour major in an ABET program and you start out of sequence, you are not getting done on time. So he received credit for "Gen Ed math". He did get credit for "Gen Ed" science - his Chem 1 class. But he still had to take chem 1 for engineers (which is deeper than Intro to Chem for non science majors) and he had to take Intro to Physics again because same deal. He went to the four year university for one year after three years of CC, realized he would still need to go to school full time for roughly 6 more semesters because he was so far out of sequence he was starting from scratch, and dropped out in discouragement. Now he has student loans from that year of university, no BS., and found out the Mecatronics degree hasn't produced any decent job openings because the program has so flooded the workforce with graduates that there are far, far, far too many for the number of job openings which were not robust to begin with.

Moral of the story, in my state if the CC offers to good to be true, then it is in fact too good to be true. And this happens with all kinds of CC credits. You really have to super careful that your kid only takes very general, gen ed credits from the CC and nothing that is a prerequisite in their major or minor. So Intro to Psyche for a non psychology/social work major? Sure. Intro to Biology for a nurse? Do.not.do.it.

This mess would stop if CC's were heavily regulated, and scope and sequence for basic coursework was dictated so it was the same from CC to university.

Yeah, the MassTransfer website will tell you exactly which class from each CC aligns to which specific class at each 4-year, and also has specific ones for specific majors. You have to do your homework,  but if you do, you can in fact transfer and graduate in just two more years. But not usually if you just get a liberal arts AA, or don't take the right level Calc class. The database is clear which one actually transfers as Calc and which one is just a generic math credit.  Sadly, I bet a lot of people don't utilize this tool to its fullest. Like, the program guarantees admission to a university,  but not necessarily to the program of your choice, unless you did the right AA/AS degree.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Matryoshka

[Matryoshka]

11 minutes ago, Library Momma said:

My daughter actually attends UMass Amherst and your system is different from ours especially at the university level.  You have multiple individual universities and UConn is just one university.  there are a few satellite campuses but they are essentially part of the same school.  UMass did accept her DE (ECE) credits from UConn that were obtained in the high school classroom.  

Yeah, it's really surprising how different even the various UMass schools are (not to mention the state universities). Two of mine graduated from UMass Amherst,  and one from UMass Lowell,  and what they accepted and how many credits they from AP/CLEP was wildly different. 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

I just want to say that all of this discussion of "DE" has been fascinating.

Here (Alberta, Canada) students finish High School, graduate, then start College or University afterwards. There's no confusing overlap!

What age do they graduate high school there? I think a huge American problem is graduation at 18. I think most students would be better served to graduate at 15/16 and transition to broader choices of options.  I think a large part of being able to do trade/de the last 2 years of high school here is a recognition that high school until 18 is often not a good developmental fit and a reason so many used to drop out. 

[Pam in CT]

re CT's UConn-centered system

44 minutes ago, Library Momma said:

We have an extensive vocational high school system here so most people earning vocational degrees do so through high school programs or possibly trade school after high school.  Community Colleges are limited in their scope (although that is growing) and you may be able to transfer some classes to one of the state colleges, but it used to be few universities would take the transfer credits.   That may be changing a bit too.  

 To put it into perspective I am 52 and I have never met anyone who graduated from a CT community college or even took classes at one.  I know one person who teaches at one and she teaches English to adult non naïve speakers.  Our system is noting like those of many other states although they are trying to grow it.  What most states have for CC more accurately looks like our state college system.  Many students go one or two years at a state college then trying to transfer to UConn (or elsewhere)

Although back to DE - The DE (or ECE) classes in high schools here  are usually either associated with UConn or local private universities.  Not the CC or state colleges.

Yeah -- both the two state-funded programs (bring UConn into HS campuses, let HS kids onto college campuses) are coordinated by UConn.  I'm within a quite strong local suburban district and closest to Norwalk's community college, and as I posted upthread I only know one kid here who's taken classes there while in HS, and that was because what he wanted (Arabic) was not offered.  I have no idea whether the credits "counted" toward his later 4 year degree -- I rather expect not; more like AP Chinese doesn't "count" for anything other than placement.

I do have a friend who did a full year of fulltime coursework there, all of which transferred into a medical degree program at a private university. But she'd been accepted into the private degree program first, then carefully worked out in advance with an advisor specific courses to take at the (closer & cheaper) Norwalk CC, knowing upfront that they'd be accepted.  She felt the quality of the (pre-med and early-nursing) offerings were strong-enough though not as strong as her later work.

 

16 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Huh. Wouldn't have thought our neighbor state to the south would be so different.  MassTransfer here is a great program, you can just go to the site online and look up which classes/degrees have agreements at the 4 UMass campuses, or the 9? state 4-year universities.  Another one of my dcs did DE at the CC, started as a freshman at one of the state universities, then transferred to UMass Amherst.

Since as far as I know all our DE is on-campus, it can't be associated with our flagship way out west.

This is kind of a snobby state and a lot kids from 'better' districts would never be seen dead at a CC, but the more I've seen, the more I've been impressed by them.  They're like Swiss army knives - jump start for younger students,  a soft start for college-aged kids who didn't maybe apply themselves in high school, or who just want to save money,  and a place for retraining and/or vocational programs for adults. My dc who has two humanities BAs is back at CC knocking out prereqs for PT school. 

Believe me, MA does NOT have a corner on snobby! 

Nonetheless, I don't think that's the main reason kids in districts like mine mostly-don't avail of the CC.  On the one hand, it's quite inconvenient -- unless a CC class *happens* to be at night (some are, some aren't) it's quite hard to fit into the HS schedule; it's 35 minutes' drive to Norwalk CC and ~45 / ~75 to the Stamford or Hartford satellite campuses of UConn (whose offerings, anyway, are limited).

And, the quality/academic rigor/breadth of the HS offerings are high.

And, there's no guarantee the credits will transfer (even to UConn); it's case by case.

And I suppose also, there are sufficient Early College entry programs in private schools in the general area (Bard, Trinity, Fairfield, I think Purchase also) that a motivated kid who just wanted to Get Out and could afford to do so... could do so, more fully and continuously that "dual" status affords.

 

I'm really interested to hear how differently the states approach "dual."  The principal advantages do seem to me to be financial.  Which is OTOH huge; and OTO a mechanism for dealing with problems resulting from a tertiary education system that is funded... very differently from almost all other nations.  A solution to a problem that other nations don't have, or at least don't have to anywhere near the same degree.

[Faith-manor]

29 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, the MassTransfer website will tell you exactly which class from each CC aligns to which specific class at each 4-year, and also has specific ones for specific majors. You have to do your homework,  but if you do, you can in fact transfer and graduate in just two more years. But not usually if you just get a liberal arts AA, or don't take the right level Calc class. The database is clear which one actually transfers as Calc and which one is just a generic math credit.  Sadly, I bet a lot of people don't utilize this tool to its fullest. Like, the program guarantees admission to a university,  but not necessarily to the program of your choice, unless you did the right AA/AS degree.

Here the student has to have their college transcript sent to the four year university of choice for evaluation, and wait to see what they say, then apply. It can take up so much time that the window for applying for transfer and departmental scholarships are closed before hearing back even if the student starts the process pronto on the calendar for admission the following semester.

[Faith-manor]

35 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

What age do they graduate high school there? I think a huge American problem is graduation at 18. I think most students would be better served to graduate at 15/16 and transition to broader choices of options.  I think a large part of being able to do trade/de the last 2 years of high school here is a recognition that high school until 18 is often not a good developmental fit and a reason so many used to drop out. 

I agree. I would prefer a system where math and science topics are integrated in such a way that high school is essentially accomplished in 7th-10th grades, and then student move on to that which is appropriate and satisfying to them. The current system is just not working.

[Matryoshka]

44 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm really interested to hear how differently the states approach "dual."  The principal advantages do seem to me to be financial.  Which is OTOH huge; and OTO a mechanism for dealing with problems resulting from a tertiary education system that is funded... very differently from almost all other nations.  A solution to a problem that other nations don't have, or at least don't have to anywhere near the same degree.

Two of mine did DE, and for the one who used MassTransfer it saved money on college, but for the one who applied as a freshman, it cost more than sending them to the ps.  For both of them, it was much more about what others have mentioned - getting the heck out of high school.  They were homeschooled until high school and then tried it out.  We have an excellent public high school - but it's also a pressure-cooker.  One of my kids stayed and graduated, one lasted two years, the third two months.

Especially for the youngest, the best part about CC was not having to get up at 6 in the morning, not having classes all day every day, being able to go outside between classes, just generally not being there all day starting at dawn, with 4 minutes between classes and 20 minutes to eat lunch and pee.  Also being able to get the 'gen-eds' out of the way and get on to classes that interested her.

They both dual enrolled as homeschoolers, which meant they could do whatever they wanted.  The local ps does offer DE, but it's set up weird (and I think most people don't know it's an option).  This is coming from the ps side, not the CC side.  At our local ps, you can do DE your junior and/or senior year, but you have to take 100% of your classes at the CC - all or nothing.  I think this is because there's a rotating class schedule at the ps, so there's no way to coordinate times with the CC. And of course you have to take the classes they deem acceptable. I think other schools may well do it differently. 

The great way to get around that is just to homeschool, there's not much of a limit on age as long as you can pass the placement tests (and even then not all classes require them), and you can take whatever classes float your boat.  And then the parent is the guidance counselor, which allows you to talk to the CC guidance folk - as a ps DE student, only the ps guidance counselor can talk to them.

[Matryoshka]

25 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree. I would prefer a system where math and science topics are integrated in such a way that high school is essentially accomplished in 7th-10th grades, and then student move on to that which is appropriate and satisfying to them. The current system is just not working.

This is pretty much how it's done in much of Europe.  Most kids get a 10th grade diploma and move on to a mix of hands-on/classroom work (similar in some ways to some of the hands-on programs at CCs), and only the ones who want more academic-type credentials go on for 2-3 more years of school and take the college entrance exams (which are way more in-depth and rigorous than those here.  No bubbles.  Essays and oral exams.)

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

What age do they graduate high school there? I think a huge American problem is graduation at 18. I think most students would be better served to graduate at 15/16 and transition to broader choices of options.  I think a large part of being able to do trade/de the last 2 years of high school here is a recognition that high school until 18 is often not a good developmental fit and a reason so many used to drop out. 

You might be surprised to know that there are many parents who think that 18 is still too young.

Also, it isn't an age by when children graduate; it's that they complete 12 years of school. Depending on when their birthdays are they might be 17, possibly even 16.

As a homeschooler, I don't believe it takes 12 years to produce a well-educated, ready-to-be-an-adult person; we graduated our daughters on their 16th birthdays. Of course, they had been attending community college since they were 14, so there's that. 🙂 But still, it was never my goal to emulate a classroom education (private schools as well as public schools have the 12-year model).

[importswim]

I took Biology of Human Sexuality in college and we didn't have to write about any personal experiences in any of the assignments we did. 

[Murphy101]

58 minutes ago, Ellie said:

You might be surprised to know that there are many parents who think that 18 is still too young.

Also, it isn't an age by when children graduate; it's that they complete 12 years of school. Depending on when their birthdays are they might be 17, possibly even 16.

I’m not surprised by humans at all much anymore. I’m well aware that graduation can be earlier, both Dh and I graduated earlier and so have some of our kids.  My point was the American system was set up with the majority being 17/18 pending birthdate and red-shirting for at least the last 3 generations.  

58 minutes ago, Ellie said:

As a homeschooler, I don't believe it takes 12 years to produce a well-educated, ready-to-be-an-adult person; we graduated our daughters on their 16th birthdays. Of course, they had been attending community college since they were 14, so there's that. 🙂 But still, it was never my goal to emulate a classroom education (private schools as well as public schools have the 12-year model).

Personally I don’t think graduation from high school has anything to do with being ready to be an adult.  Academic, emotional and physical development is just not that well in-step aligned with age.

[bolt.]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

What age do they graduate high school there? I think a huge American problem is graduation at 18. I think most students would be better served to graduate at 15/16 and transition to broader choices of options.  I think a large part of being able to do trade/de the last 2 years of high school here is a recognition that high school until 18 is often not a good developmental fit and a reason so many used to drop out. 

It's 18-ish, unless a student starts a bit early or a bit later than the usual K-at-5.

There are some vocational tracks/options available in HS, as well as some academically rigorous choices, so maybe that provides some variety?

Our local HS completion/graduation rate is 83%. (That doesn't account for people who attend HS for the whole time but don't end up meeting graduation requirements, but it's a fair approximation.)

[Murphy101]

20 minutes ago, bolt. said:

It's 18-ish, unless a student starts a bit early or a bit later than the usual K-at-5.

There are some vocational tracks/options available in HS, as well as some academically rigorous choices, so maybe that provides some variety?

Our local HS completion/graduation rate is 83%. (That doesn't account for people who attend HS for the whole time but don't end up meeting graduation requirements, but it's a fair approximation.)

I should be clear. We have people graduating. But they are functionally illiterate. A significant percentage cannot pass a grade level reading or math test in 3rd, 6th, or 9th grade and they just keep getting passed along to the next grade.  They might even be 3.0-4.0 students! So “completing high schooling” does not necessarily mean anything.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Murphy101

[BlsdMama]

21 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I'd lose my ever lovin' mind.  We just had another small town teacher nailed for s*xting a 13yo girl.  Some teacher asks my teen to write about s*xual experiences and he is WAY out of line.  What in the world is he hired to do? Oh yeah - prep her to teach coherently and persuasively for her college paper.  This cr*p has no place in preparatory academics.  

Can schools just stick to reading, writing, and 'rithmetic and let parents freaking parent.  I'm so sick of the agenda of "We know better than parents what your kids should be exposed to."

 

6 hours ago, ktgrok said:

The part you quoted says in it that the students were never assigned those prompts. Your post was all about how assigning them is bad - and I agree. But they were not assigned, so what is the problem?

You’re splitting hairs. Why? Why use a book on the cusp of, “How far can I push the envelope and get away with?”  My post as written still relevant. I would be the so called puritanical parent and I cannot figure out, for the life of me, why schools teach beyond academics. There is such a wide meadow of acceptable beliefs. Why is it that schools feel the need to decide which version of morality they get to shove down kids’ throats ad nauseam? 
 

I took a University class on teaching juvenile literature about three years ago. I was really excited about it. Forgive me, I don’t remember the titles, but was pretty dark about suicide and the next delved into homosexuality but portrayed the young man not as a whole person but utterly revolved around his sexuality as though his sexuality was his entire self, his entire identity. Neither topic is taboo nor would I expect it to be, but neither was either topic portrayed in a healthy manner. But what was alarming about that class? It was geared towards teachers obviously. And the professor said that encouraging students to discuss at home or making parents aware of controversial books or topics was really just inciting problems so don’t encourage home discussions and don’t say anything to parents. 
 

It disgusted me. It still disgusts me. Parents have no worthy input? Just give us the kids, we know best, and you feed them dinner and tuck them in. 
 

So I return back to my original statement that I should have phrased as a question:  How does using an inflammatory book best accomplish the goal of teaching my daughter how to write clearly, cohesively, and coherently on a topic? It can be done (and done well) without introducing concepts (like handing a teen a book of inflammatory and/or titillating questions) on sexuality that is really the place of the parents to discuss at that age?

 And if we disagree that this is a parental role and not a school role, then we disagree on the basic purpose of high school at which point we will have to agree to disagree because neither of us will be persuaded otherwise. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by BlsdMama

[SKL]

I agree that 18 is way too old for high school for many kids, especially girls who aren't into the social scene there.

(But yes, I've seen where some parents think it's better to give "the gift of time" resulting in a legal adult still being nowhere close to finishing high school.  Based on my experience, that's asking for trouble.  I think I have read where statistically kids who are old for grade are more likely than average to quit school.)

When I was in high school, there was no DE, at least not that I was aware of.  You had to graduate HS or do your GED before you could go to college.  Worse, you had to be at least 18 to do your GED.  Luckily I had started school a year early, and managed to get permission to graduate early (at 16).  Already at 15 I was dying to be out of there.

I know a fair number of high school dropouts who just hated it that much.

So I'm glad they have options now.  My county/state have many interesting alternatives to what was standard in my day.  I suspect this is part of the reason for increased graduation rates over time.

Edited February 16, 2022 by SKL

[Murphy101]

I will say that I have commented on these boards before that if I were to judge by many schools middle and high school assigned literature selections - I’d think schools were determined to make young people as suicidal as possible.  I love a good dystopian or sci for novel and I think we do plenty of “heavy” reading by most standards but some school assigned book lists seem unrelentingly dark and hopeless to me. 

[Murphy101]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

I agree that 18 is way too old for high school for many kids, especially girls who aren't into the social scene there.

(But yes, I've seen where some parents think it's better to give "the gift of time" resulting in a legal adult still being nowhere close to finishing high school.  Based on my experience, that's asking for trouble.  I think I have read where statistically kids who are old for grade are more likely than average to quit school.)

When I was in high school, there was no DE, at least not that I was aware of.  You had to graduate HS or do your GED before you could go to college.  Worse, you had to be at least 18 to do your GED.  Luckily I had started school a year early, and managed to get permission to graduate early (at 16).  Already at 15 I was dying to be out of there.

I know a fair number of high school dropouts who just hated it that much.

So I'm glad they have options now.  My county/state have many interesting alternatives to what was standard in my day.  I suspect this is part of the reason for increased graduation rates over time.

I absolutely hated k-12 school. I loved learning and have always been a voracious reader. But I hated every minute at school. Going to trade school a half days in 11th and 12th grades for computer programming was a welcome relief. But even then I barely graduated from the high school bc since I didn’t have a car and the bus after tech school always dropped me an hour after my English class - I only attended English twice senior year. I had to make it up in summer school to get the diploma. When the principal called me in for the truant classes and I explained the situation, his advice is as that I was a pretty enough young girl - surely one of the guys at the trade school would give me a ride so I could make class on time. I said, “Is that the advice you’d give YOUR daughter or just girls like me?”  He flustered and blustered a bit but he never called me into his office again.   

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

What age do they graduate high school there? I think a huge American problem is graduation at 18. I think most students would be better served to graduate at 15/16 and transition to broader choices of options.  I think a large part of being able to do trade/de the last 2 years of high school here is a recognition that high school until 18 is often not a good developmental fit and a reason so many used to drop out. 

 

1 hour ago, Ellie said:

You might be surprised to know that there are many parents who think that 18 is still too young.

Also, it isn't an age by when children graduate; it's that they complete 12 years of school. Depending on when their birthdays are they might be 17, possibly even 16.

As a homeschooler, I don't believe it takes 12 years to produce a well-educated, ready-to-be-an-adult person; we graduated our daughters on their 16th birthdays. Of course, they had been attending community college since they were 14, so there's that. 🙂 But still, it was never my goal to emulate a classroom education (private schools as well as public schools have the 12-year model).

 

37 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

Why use a book on the cusp of, “How far can I push the envelope and get away with?”  My post as written still relevant. I would be the so called puritanical parent and I cannot figure out, for the life of me, why schools teach beyond academics. There is such a wide meadow of acceptable beliefs. Why is it that schools feel the need to decide which version of morality they get to shove down kids’ throats ad nauseam? 

Why? Maybe they didn't read all 600 prompts before deciding to use it. 

And how on EARTH is assigning prompts that are NOT the controversial ones shoving any kind of morality down anyone's throat? Asking a student to write about their vacation or whatever, and the student noticing another prompt on some other page mentions sex is NOT shoving morality into anyone. 

So I ask you the same question, WHY is a student on their own time noticing that a book mentions sexual encounters such a problem? What is the harm in that?

25 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I will say that I have commented on these boards before that if I were to judge by many schools middle and high school assigned literature selections - I’d think schools were determined to make young people as suicidal as possible.  I love a good dystopian or sci for novel and I think we do plenty of “heavy” reading by most standards but some school assigned book lists seem unrelentingly dark and hopeless to me. 

I've thought this since I was forced to read Where the Red Fern Grows, lol. I'm still traumatized by that and Bridge to Terabithia...pretty sure we read those in the same year and then were assigned The Yearling. UGH. I flat out refuse to bring those books into my home, as well as Old Yeller, which I at least knew enough not to read, lol. 

But....that may not be what you meant, lol. 

6 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I absolutely hated k-12 school. I loved learning and have always been a voracious reader. But I hated every minute at school. 

Amen. 

My sister and I were talking and she actually brought this up to her daughters...that Aunt Katie hated school, but loves learning. (I HATED highschool in particular, meanwhile my sister loved it so much she now is a high school principal, lol!)

[Faith-manor]

18 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I will say that I have commented on these boards before that if I were to judge by many schools middle and high school assigned literature selections - I’d think schools were determined to make young people as suicidal as possible.  I love a good dystopian or sci for novel and I think we do plenty of “heavy” reading by most standards but some school assigned book lists seem unrelentingly dark and hopeless to me. 

I do agree there. I feel as though there is often no balance. It is like watching way too much news in a short period of time. Break it up already. Get some Tennyson, have a little fun, maybe Don Quixote, break it up with Carry on Jeeves, pay the boys to read Jane Austen and then act out a scene. 😂 It is important to acknowledge that we all need a respite from the hard stuff, and if that is true of adults, it for certain true of minors.

And frankly, when three Hemingway novels are required in the same year (staring directly and accusingly at the 9th grade Englis teacher six miles south of here) well then just say no. That is too much. No human should be subjected to that without consent and alcohol. Not old enough to drink? Only one Hemingway for you this year.

[Murphy101]

19 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I do agree there. I feel as though there is often no balance. It is like watching way too much news in a short period of time. Break it up already. Get some Tennyson, have a little fun, maybe Don Quixote, break it up with Carry on Jeeves, pay the boys to read Jane Austen and then act out a scene. 😂 It is important to acknowledge that we all need a respite from the hard stuff, and if that is true of adults, it for certain true of minors.

And frankly, when three Hemingway novels are required in the same year (staring directly and accusingly at the 9th grade Englis teacher six miles south of here) well then just say no. That is too much. No human should be subjected to that without consent and alcohol. Not old enough to drink? Only one Hemingway for you this year.

Gallows humor is really the only humor I have and I’ve often lamented that even Hemingway couldn’t get drunk enough to not feel like killing himself after reading his books. And I actually like some of them! 

[BusyMom5]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I should be clear. We have people graduating. But they are functionally illiterate. A significant percentage cannot pass a grade level reading or math test in 3rd, 6th, or 9th grade and they just keep getting passed along to the next grade.  They might even be 3.0-4.0 students! So “completing high schooling” does not necessarily mean anything.

Kind of off topic, but this is why I support standardized tests like ACT and SAT in college admissions. GPA is not an even playing field!  If you cannot pass one of these tests,  placing you in a college level math and English class, go to CC and get caught up.  Ours offers these classes very low priced or free.  

[Murphy101]

53 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

Kind of off topic, but this is why I support standardized tests like ACT and SAT in college admissions. GPA is not an even playing field!  If you cannot pass one of these tests,  placing you in a college level math and English class, go to CC and get caught up.  Ours offers these classes very low priced or free.  

That’s exactly why so many colleges started to require these exams. However  not all places offer the remedial courses to adults for free or low rates. In my state, these course cost the same amount as any other college course.  And honestly, the kids are told every day all day that if they can’t hack high school they won’t be able to handle college and of course they believe it. I know I did for many years. Because I hated high school and believed them when they said it was just prep for college.  You get told you suck academically for 12 years 5 days a week and it’s unlikely you are going to think you don’t the day you graduate.  Most likely you are going to think like I did. Thank God I’m free and run for the exit.

ETA: it’s also why so many jobs started requiring college degrees.  It’s illegal to require a literacy proficiency test (bc Jim Crow laws) so when high school diplomas started to not mean basic literacy, employers switched to requiring college degrees. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Murphy101

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I will say that I have commented on these boards before that if I were to judge by many schools middle and high school assigned literature selections - I’d think schools were determined to make young people as suicidal as possible.  I love a good dystopian or sci for novel and I think we do plenty of “heavy” reading by most standards but some school assigned book lists seem unrelentingly dark and hopeless to me. 

YES, QFT.