Puritanical college prep & sheltering teens

[Loowit]

Talk about helicopter parents and not letting kids grow up reminded me of cub scout camps.  The parents from our pack, who during afternoon free time, made sure all the cubs had buddies and sent them out to have fun.  Other parents there complained that they weren't supervising their scouts.  Our pack found it funny, but irritating that they complained to the camp director about it.  The complaining parents were the ones that would "help" their scouts with every little thing during stations.

When I ran a daycamp I had parents complain that the station leaders wouldn't let them help their children.  Honestly, it was a good thing I was not a parent at the time, because I tend to helicopter myself, and didn't always give my children enough credit that they can do things even if they struggle.  It taught me a lot about backing off and letting kids do it on their own even in they fail.

I think helicopter parents don't want to see their kids fail, and I get that so much.  It is hard to see your kid struggle.  It was hard to watch my DD going off to college and having to learn to "adult" as she puts it.  But she is doing a great job.  It was very hard to send my son off to boot camp knowing that he was going to go through some very hard things.  He is so much stronger than I ever gave him credit for.

I am so glad that DH is the one who did most of the boy scout stuff with them including camping because I would have been too hesitant when things seemed dangerous or uncomfortable.  Although DH did tell me that he and the other scouters had mugs that they would hold onto to keep their hands busy so they weren't using them to step in and "help" the boys too much with things.

Anyway, sorry if I got too off topic.

On the topic of DE classes, I think that parents have to step back and let the kids handle it for the most part.  Teenagers who are old/mature enough to take college classes are old/mature enough to talk to the teachers when something seems wrong or out of place.  DD took CC classes with DE students and found some of them were just not ready for that level of thinking or behavior.  A number of them wanted to be able to turn in late assignments like they did in high school classes and basically to be coddled.  It drove DD nuts.

When I was in college I took a capstone course my sophomore year of community college that was on the topic of discovering self.  I had no inkling going into it that it was going to spend about half the course on biography books that were very sexually explicit.  Nothing about that was in the course description.  None of us figured it out until we were partway through the course.  There were about five of us in the class that refused to read the material.  It was not something any of us had been warned about and it was too late to drop the course (it was a 15 credit class that took the place of three 5 credit classes).  We went and discussed it with the professors and came to an understanding, and we were allowed to skip those parts of the book.  None of those parts of the books were brought up in the discussion groups, so in the end it worked out.  But that was a very uncomfortable situation that I had to deal with on my own.  My parents, even though I was living at home at the time, knew nothing about it.  If I had been in high school, I am pretty sure my parents would have stepped in.

I think it blurs the lines a bit if a DE class is taking place in a high school instead of at a college.

[HS Mom in NC]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

But that’s going to fall primarily and the hardest on those already with the least advantages. Those who can will withdraw their kids and pay for them to go to private or homeschool or whatever. And then they will care even less what is happening in the public schools. 
 

Not that I have an answer that will fix the system. 

But maintaining the status quo won't solve it either. The status quo hasn't worked for them yet.  It's like amputation; it's absolutely brutal, but it's on the verge of septic. What else can be done? I know, I  know, people are suffering, but they've been suffering all along. It's time to end the slow burn and snuff it out so it can be revamped for real.

The economy is such that most people can't homeschool or private school. It will still leave the masses needing public school.  It's harder to homeschool because most people can't afford a stay at home parent, and rich people already send their kids to private schools.  We.can.not.continue.like.this. 

The spiral is going to tighten and speed up as more and more teachers and nurses leave.  Let it implode.  They'll have most people's attention when it does.

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

As awful as it is when it now and when it happens in full force, I think the only way we can save public education is to let it implode spectacularly.  Let parents face that cold, hard reality of 40 kids to a class, being bused across creation to a neighboring consolidated school system, bare bones austerity schools, and such.  It's way too abstract and distant right now for some people to grasp what happens when teachers spend too long in intolerable working conditions. I'm not saying public school has been entirely where it should be or that rebuilding from the ground up will be anything other than painful, but let's be honest, since teaching, nursing, nurse assisting, childcaring, and retail work is mostly done by women, people have been willing to dump on them for a long time. They're fed up and I want them to give a resounding NO MORE to the public that has treated them like crap for so long.

50. 50 kids per classroom. This is what my rural district is predicting for next year.

Sure, that's gonna work. 😬

[HS Mom in NC]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

50. 50 kids per classroom. This is what my rural district is predicting for next year.

Sure, that's gonna work. 😬

That's the stark reality parents are going to have to face.  Parents and politicians have ignored the reality of treating teachers like crap.  Well parents, here it is.  50 kids per class because you don't choose politicians who support reasonable pay rates for licensed professionals.  You don't treat teachers with respect and make your little pookies behave.  Now your kid can be one of 50 in classroom until that salary increase happens and school policies support teachers getting respect. 

You can't negotiate until you can say no. Well, teachers are saying no.  You better start making them want to say yes or this is what you get.

[Kassia]

29 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

And I see nothing to indicate this happened. I will say, though, that one reason why I discouraged my teen from doing public speaking DE was that when I was in college, a lot of students chose to speak on fairly personal topics and some got quite explicit. I could easily imagine some high school students CHOOSING to write about their sex lives, even if the prompt was fairly general. 

=

My dd started doing DE at the community college fairly young and was advised not to take English classes until she was at least 16 due to possible adult content.  She did end up doing that but never encountered any issues in her English classes.  However, professors in some other classes did say things in class I thought she was kind of young for (and one said things she was uncomfortable with - this was U.S. Government!)  but that was a risk we knew we were taking when we enrolled her.  It was a great experience for her most of the time.  

 

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

It was clearly a mistake to link to that article. My larger question was why does it seem to be a trend that parents avoiding raising children to be adults? 

I haven’t seen that trend. 

[Frances]

32 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

50. 50 kids per classroom. This is what my rural district is predicting for next year.

Sure, that's gonna work. 😬

I actually think in certain situations it can work just fine. My middle school social studies classes were are whole class, 60 students. They were taught by the principle and were excellent. All of our grade was based on exams, so grading was not onerous for the teacher. When my mom went to private Catholic school, her classes were that large and she got a great education. The key in both cases was no real discipline problems. And obviously that’s not the case in most public schools.

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

That’s interesting. It doesn’t seem to work that way where I am. I have known kids enrolled in the same class at the same school but with different section and instructors, and they varied a lot. English 101, for example is all over the place with how each instructor chooses to approach it. One of mine had theirs entirely via texts focused on race in America while another had a more standard selection of classic books to read and write on.

And DE here is the high school student going to the CC campus and taking the class with a CC instructor, mixed in with all the other students. No separate location, instructors or classes. My DS took several DE classes this way. 

[Bootsie]

5 hours ago, Kassia said:

 

 

This is a DE class taught at the high school and parents had to sign a form acknowledging that there could be adult material assigned due to it being college level.  So it's different than an AP class designed for high school students.  I'm not saying that there isn't plenty of good material available that isn't questionable but I do think parents were informed that something like this could happen.  And the students weren't assigned any of the controversial work either.

DH and I have both been college professors for decades; we would have never considered that if we had signed a paper allowing for our child to be in a class where adult, college-level material might be assigned that a book contain these types of prompts would be included in that.  We would be appalled if a colleague of ours used a book like that at the university, unless it was in a very specific creative writing class, a class on counseling and sexual content, or something similar--not something like a first-year student writing seminar.  

[Drama Llama]

28 minutes ago, Frances said:

I actually think in certain situations it can work just fine. My middle school social studies classes were are whole class, 60 students. They were taught by the principle and were excellent. All of our grade was based on exams, so grading was not onerous for the teacher. When my mom went to private Catholic school, her classes were that large and she got a great education. The key in both cases was no real discipline problems. And obviously that’s not the case in most public schools.

Having everything based on exams in middle school is awful though.  Being able to express yourself in writing is one of the most, if not the most important task of middle school.  

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, TechWife said:

And DE here is the high school student going to the CC campus and taking the class with a CC instructor, mixed in with all the other students. No separate location, instructors or classes. My DS took several DE classes this way. 

That’s what I was trying to describe for ours as well. Ours just attended the college and took the same classes as the college students. 

[Frances]

7 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Having everything based on exams in middle school is awful though.  Being able to express yourself in writing is one of the most, if not the most important task of middle school.  

It was one class and there were short answer and essay question on exams. It wasn’t all multiple choice and T/F. Trust me, they were great classes. Neither my high school nor middle school classes were big on writing. There were many, many others where I learned far less.

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

It was clearly a mistake to link to that article. My larger question was why does it seem to be a trend that parents avoiding raising children to be adults? 

I don’t know any parents doing that. I do know many parents struggling with social policies and economics that make it harder for their children to be as independent as previous generations. And they were not the generation that made those policies that <25 yr olds and their under 50 yr old parents are having to navigate. 

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

That's the stark reality parents are going to have to face.  Parents and politicians have ignored the reality of treating teachers like crap.  Well parents, here it is.  50 kids per class because you don't choose politicians who support reasonable pay rates for licensed professionals.  You don't treat teachers with respect and make your little pookies behave.  Now your kid can be one of 50 in classroom until that salary increase happens and school policies support teachers getting respect. 

You can't negotiate until you can say no. Well, teachers are saying no.  You better start making them want to say yes or this is what you get.

Unfortunately what we are seeing in Oklahoma is that when it gets that bad the PTB decide heck with it, let anyone off the street volunteer to do it.  

37 minutes ago, TechWife said:

And DE here is the high school student going to the CC campus and taking the class with a CC instructor, mixed in with all the other students. No separate location, instructors or classes. My DS took several DE classes this way. 

All of my teens have taken their DE classes like this as well. I would not allow them to take a segregated into high school students only course. Those are horrible imnsho and experience. They’d be better off with nothing than those ime.

[Sneezyone]

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

My kid has chosen not to get a teaching license in conjunction with a BS in bio, but to get a psych degree instead. For some inexplicable reason, the idea of teaching biology in public schools just isn’t appealing at all, even if it’s just for a semester to get the license (mine’s dream job is to do outreach programs for a zoo or NGO).  I suspect that mine isn’t the only one reading the writing on the wall and deciding that yeah, no. Maybe after the BS, the pendulum will have shifted. 

Same. My kiddo would love to teach math. It’d be over my dead body.

 

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

When ds started college there was an entire orientation session for parents that focused on not being helicopter parents. So yes, some parents do coddle their kids and keep them from growing up. But I don’t think that it’s that hard to reverse this. Most kids I knew who complained about helicopter parents were eager to make their own decisions and did just fine when given a chance. 

This is a perennial complaint of college administrators. The same parents up in arms over unused materials will also harangue profs and TAs about ‘unfair treatment’ and grades.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

I think the facts were that minor students did have access to the whole book.

And again ... just because they said they never did anything with those prompts doesn't mean it's true.

For example, if they allowed the kids to choose any prompt from a given list, and the list included that some sex prompts, does it matter that the kids didn't in fact choose those sex prompts?

I just don't see why the school system had to be obstinate about it.  I could totally understand them not realizing that prompts 546-549 were of a sexual nature because they didn't actually read every word in the book before buying it.  But now that they know it's in there, and every kid in the district knows it too, you can't pretend they aren't there or don't matter.

It's not like this book of prompts is absolutely essential to the teaching of writing.

My kids' photography teacher is under investigation for allegedly telling kids to send him nude photos.  I mean nude photos are art after all ... appropriate in some adult contexts ... and high school students shouldn't be shielded from real life.  Still inappropriate?  What if the teacher denies he suggested nude photos?  Then clearly it never happened and everything is OK and we need to stop coddling our teens.

When I was in 6th, our ELA teacher focused on “inner strength” all year. He also did a read-aloud with an edited version of “Papa Was A Number Runner”. At some point, each and every one of us pilgrimaged to the library or purchased from the bookstore an unedited copy. Our parents weren’t amused. I have no idea which mom/dad complained but someone did and the read alouds went away. I still don’t blame poor Mr. Federico. Nothing he actually said/did was wrong. He just underestimated the curiosity of his students. 

[Murphy101]

20 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

When I was in 6th, our ELA teacher focused on “inner strength” all year. He also did a read-aloud with an edited version of “Papa Was A Number Runner”. At some point, each and every one of us pilgrimaged to the library or purchased from the bookstore an unedited copy. Our parents weren’t amused. I have no idea which mom/dad complained but someone did and the read alouds went away. I still don’t blame poor Mr. Federico. Nothing he actually said/did was wrong. He just underestimated the curiosity of his students. 

See now. Here is where I am at on this. Teachers can’t have it both ways. Way one is they are highly educated degreed professionals whose judgement we should presume we can trust bc they are skilled and knowledgeable about their job. Way two is they don’t have the basic training and understanding of teaching, child development and human psychology to expect that OF COURSE that’s exactly what any kid would have done.  I mean come on. Was Mr Federico competent or not?  Because seriously, why would anyone NOT presume the kids would do that?!  Did he know nothing at all about humans?  Or did he just think they were too dumb to be curious?

Edited February 15, 2022 by Murphy101

[Sneezyone]

37 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

See now. Here is where I am at on this. Teachers can’t have it both ways. Way one is they are highly educated degreed professionals whose judgement we should presume we can trust bc they are skilled and knowledgeable about their job. Way two is they don’t have the basic training and understanding of teaching, child development and human psychology to expect that OF COURSE that’s exactly what any kid would have done.  I mean come on. Was Mr Federico competent or not?  Because seriously, why would anyone NOT presume the kids would do that?!  Did he know nothing at all about humans?  Or did he just think they were too dumb to be curious?

I don’t think it was reasonable to assume that most 6th graders would take the bus, solo, to the library to check that book out nor that they would have had the disposable income to purchase it on a whim in/around 1985. It was a GATE class and we were all voracious readers tho. Different demo from the gen pop. I still don’t blame him. Our parents were largely absentee after school, lots of latch key kids, and any one of them could have discussed the book/issues with us independently. They never did. They went straight to the school. I am still friends with some of those classmates today. They’re universally disturbed at the roll they inadvertently played in his discipline. That was back in the moral majority era.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Tanaqui]

Class sizes used to be much larger than they are today, and in some other countries - even some developed countries - they tend to be larger than the USA preference.

There is precedent for 50 kid classrooms.

I think it's a bad idea, but they'll point to other places and other times and go "See? It can be done! It was done back when things were better in the halcyon days of yore!"

[Kassia]

7 hours ago, TechWife said:

And DE here is the high school student going to the CC campus and taking the class with a CC instructor, mixed in with all the other students. No separate location, instructors or classes. My DS took several DE classes this way. 

That's the way my kids took their DE classes as well (CC campus and 4 year university).  But our ps had several DE classes that were offered in the school for the high school students only and taught by the high school teacher, who was contracted with the CC.  I know another high school where a professor comes in from a local university to teach the DE class to students.  My kids only took their classes at the actual colleges and never stepped foot in the high school even though that's where they eventually graduated from (I enrolled them in ps for the funding since ps students get free DE and books).  

 

7 hours ago, Bootsie said:

DH and I have both been college professors for decades; we would have never considered that if we had signed a paper allowing for our child to be in a class where adult, college-level material might be assigned that a book contain these types of prompts would be included in that.  We would be appalled if a colleague of ours used a book like that at the university, unless it was in a very specific creative writing class, a class on counseling and sexual content, or something similar--not something like a first-year student writing seminar.  

I agree.  I was only stating that parents were warned ahead of time that there could be adult content.  

[MEmama]

Thought this CNN analysis piece might belong here: https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/15/politics/schools-covid-politics/index.html

[Clemsondana]

I think some of these issues are cumulative - most teachers do a reasonable, appropriate job, but some have no idea where the line is and parents hear about it and are concerned.  My parents were protective in the sense of being less willing to let me do some things than other kids' parents.  On the other hand, they were hands-off about what I read (and I think they had forgotten some of what was on their bookshelves!).  But...had there been any chance of somebody at the school asking inappropriate personal questions, they would have stepped in.  Based on other interactions with teachers and staff, I wouldn't have trusted how that information would be used had students done the assignments.  I know that none of the questions were used, but the parents didn't have any way of knowing that they wouldn't be. 

I took a lot of psychology in college (it was the most bio-related of the social science credits), and I took a Human Sexuality course.  We learned about all sorts of things, but were never asked to give any information about our own sexual experience or lack thereof.  Parents see things like this https://patch.com/connecticut/enfield/pizza-metaphor-middle-school-sex-education-lesson-draws-fire (I've seen it in other places, but this is the link that the yahoo front page took me to) and they don't trust that the schools will use common sense.  In the case above, I can see how somebody could link to the wrong assignment, but if somebody actually led students through this in class... I mean, I've taught classes at church and looked over it ahead of time and thought 'Nope, not doing this - I'll modify it' but at least one teacher thought the pizza thing was OK.  I can see parents being a bit distrustful.  I would have expected that the 'adult content could be discussed' thing was more about possible discussion topics - Was Tess in Tess of the d'Urbervilles raped or was the encounter consensual? - than 'Your student could be asked what their wildest sex story is.'.  A teacher can give prompts from any book that they want, but if the students are supposed to have the book, they could reasonably be concerned that any prompt in the book could be used.  

[Faith-manor]

12 hours ago, Frances said:

I actually think in certain situations it can work just fine. My middle school social studies classes were are whole class, 60 students. They were taught by the principle and were excellent. All of our grade was based on exams, so grading was not onerous for the teacher. When my mom went to private Catholic school, her classes were that large and she got a great education. The key in both cases was no real discipline problems. And obviously that’s not the case in most public schools.

I question if 50 k'ers with one adult and no aide can be educated well within the parameters of public education. Parochial schools have far more leeway. They cannot be the "test case" for what works in the p.s. 

I am talking about elementary aged. I taught in a Lutheran K-8 for many years. We were not allowed more than 28 per class room, and numerous studies produced by Lutheran Universities showed that maximum adult to child ratio for teaching academics was 17, and for every child added after that, achievement went down. At 29, it was simply unacceptable. But, due to budgets, many schools still operated at 30 per classroom. However, that was the limit. Good teachers made it work.

Regardless of the rare "we had 50 and were just fine" anecdata, it is actually quite bad in general practice with students so young. And in order to make this happen, children will no longer have desks or tables, just chairs and clipboards, with books stacked under their chairs, because none of the classrooms are big enough for this.

The high school classes such as regular freshman English and Algebra 1 are expected to top 50 due to loss of high school faculty and inability to hire.

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, L started college classes at 12, on campus, and took Eng Comp 1 the second semester. One reason why I was comfortable doing so was that the syllabus was  the same for all classes, so I could look up and make sure that the content was reasonable for a 12 yr old who could easily handle college level materials and write on a college level. By the time my kid took African-American literature at 14, I felt very comfortable with the fact that most of the books were going to be graphic in some way. My kid already was pretty familiar with Black history at a college level, and knew that literature would reflect it, with additional emotions added.  By this past fall, at age 16, sending my teen away to college with adults really didn’t bother me because after spending four years on a local college campus, just about every possible situation had come up, and L had been able to handle it fine. 
 

I think most parents who have their child start college classes early on campus recognize that it means their child won’t be protected from “adult” content. It’s one reason why I am generally opposed to DE classes on a high school campus, or for just high school students (as some of the colleges here do at night), with the possible exception of online ones done during a study period. Because that removes the recognition that “yeah, I’m sending my kid into an adult situation and no one is going to protect them”. And, as this example shows, parents expect to have far more control and recourse in a high school than they do in a college, where in most cases, the administration won’t even talk to you because it is expected that the student will self advocate if needed. 

[Murphy101]

10 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I don’t think it was reasonable to assume that most 6th graders would take the bus, solo, to the library to check that book out nor that they would have had the disposable income to purchase it on a whim in/around 1985. It was a GATE class and we were all voracious readers tho. Different demo from the gen pop. I still don’t blame him. Our parents were largely absentee after school, lots of latch key kids, and any one of them could have discussed the book/issues with us independently. They never did. They went straight to the school. I am still friends with some of those classmates today. They’re universally disturbed at the roll they inadvertently played in his discipline. That was back in the moral majority era.

Meh. I was in 6th grade in 1985. I would not have been even slightly surprised by myself or any other kid my age doing that. I walked MILES all over the city at that age to go anywhere I wanted. Most kids my age did that it rode bikes. Lots of us have stories of walking or riding bikes miles to go do some cool thing with friends. I was the only kid I knew who didn’t have an allowance, most in my school certainly had enough pocket money to afford something like buying a book at a bookstore.  Best case scenario is the teacher was clueless about their students or lacked any imagination at all about the capabilities of a 6th grader - none of which makes me think better of the teacher’s teaching abilities.

10 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Class sizes used to be much larger than they are today, and in some other countries - even some developed countries - they tend to be larger than the USA preference.

There is precedent for 50 kid classrooms.

I think it's a bad idea, but they'll point to other places and other times and go "See? It can be done! It was done back when things were better in the halcyon days of yore!"

The thing is that teachers need a LOT more intensive and extensive training to handle those classrooms and that teaching load to do so with any level of competence.  In nations that typically have such high numbers, the teachers have a lot more training and also, often the school day is no where near as long or the years in school all the way to 18. And most in the states aren’t getting that. In fact, the training is getting less and less the higher the load and bigger the classes. And the school days are getting longer and the years spent in are often 2/3 years of age all the way to 18-22 with college. At some point we need to accept that the teacher training for these situations amounts to warehouse management more than actually educating. That’s why there is far too much in common with schools and prisons - both are becoming more and more low-wage, low training supervision of people warehousing than actual educating.

And hell yes. That really concerns me whether my kids are in public schools or not. Because I don’t see much positive for generations of children living in those situations for 18 years and we all have to live in a society eventually formed by that.

[Dmmetler]

20 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I question if 50 k'ers with one adult and no aide can be educated well within the parameters of public education. Parochial schools have far more leeway. They cannot be the "test case" for what works in the p.s. 

I am talking about elementary aged. I taught in a Lutheran K-8 for many years. We were not allowed more than 28 per class room, and numerous studies produced by Lutheran Universities showed that maximum adult to child ratio for teaching academics was 17, and for every child added after that, achievement went down. At 29, it was simply unacceptable. But, due to budgets, many schools still operated at 30 per classroom. However, that was the limit. Good teachers made it work.

Regardless of the rare "we had 50 and were just fine" anecdata, it is actually quite bad in general practice with students so young. And in order to make this happen, children will no longer have desks or tables, just chairs and clipboards, with books stacked under their chairs, because none of the classrooms are big enough for this.

The high school classes such as regular freshman English and Algebra 1 are expected to top 50 due to loss of high school faculty and inability to hire.

The only way I can see it working for kinder is to go multiage. 50 kids mixed ages 5-12 would work better than 50 5 yr olds, and in that situation, the adult might be able to do some directed activities with groups of interested kids. But it would be less an instructional model and more like what you see at a YMCA or Parks and Rec summer camp. Some kids would thrive, assuming the environment was rich enough and they could self teach. And some would never learn how to read or do arithmetic because they need direct instruction. 
 

For high school, it basically makes them lecture classes akin to college, without recitation sections and

lwith less mature students. And failure rates for those university classes are pretty awful, which is WHY most schools have recitation sections with a Grad student if they have the huge classes. 
 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Dmmetler

[Faith-manor]

Dmmelter, I 100% agree. I do feel that DE on high school campus really blurs things, and if parents have their way, will result in watered down content.

I left for college, a university with a conservatory quality music department, at 16. I had been advocating for myself and my education since 14. So it is hard for me to imagine having a parent attempt to micromanage the content of adult classes. It would be better for parents who are against adult content for their teens to not use DE at all. Since we homeschooled, our kids had DE on the college campus.

[Murphy101]

16 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I question if 50 k'ers with one adult and no aide can be educated well within the parameters of public education. Parochial schools have far more leeway. They cannot be the "test case" for what works in the p.s. 

I am talking about elementary aged. I taught in a Lutheran K-8 for many years. We were not allowed more than 28 per class room, and numerous studies produced by Lutheran Universities showed that maximum adult to child ratio for teaching academics was 17, and for every child added after that, achievement went down. At 29, it was simply unacceptable. But, due to budgets, many schools still operated at 30 per classroom. However, that was the limit. Good teachers made it work.

Regardless of the rare "we had 50 and were just fine" anecdata, it is actually quite bad in general practice with students so young. And in order to make this happen, children will no longer have desks or tables, just chairs and clipboards, with books stacked under their chairs, because none of the classrooms are big enough for this.

The high school classes such as regular freshman English and Algebra 1 are expected to top 50 due to loss of high school faculty and inability to hire.

This. There’s a lot of precedent for large classrooms but let’s look at what is also common in many nations with those scenarios:

- aggressive tracking of students by the age of 12.

- most do not have to be in public school after age 15

- most do not make any accommodations, even more make very few accommodations, especially after age 12.  Those children are either shunted out entirely or tracked to service sector training/education.

- some of those nations have a much heavier social net and social policies to reflect this, some have opted for little or no social net at all for those demographics deemed undesirable  

American public schools have to take everyone. Doesn’t matter if their IQ is 22 or 200. Doesn’t matter if they have a wheelchair or severe dyslexics or autistic.  And in any group of 50 kids, odds are good you’ll have at least 10 that have some issue of some kind at some point that accommodation would greatly benefit. Those 10 very often get nothing in many countries. In fact, in many countries those parents would be shamed for even continuing those pregnancies or keeping the kid.  After all, there’s no Down syndrome in some of those countries. And it’s not because a cure was found. 

I’m not at all surprised that schools are at the center of culture wars. They should be. We all care for the future society we want for our kids. Some of us may be fighting for our kids to have any place at all in that future society.  

[Dmmetler]

5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Meh. I was in 6th grade in 1985. I would not have been even slightly surprised by myself or any other kid my age doing that. I walked MILES all over the city at that age to go anywhere I wanted. Most kids my age did that it rode bikes. Lots of us have stories of walking or riding bikes miles to go do some cool thing with friends. I was the only kid I knew who didn’t have an allowance, most in my school certainly had enough pocket money to afford something like buying a book at a bookstore.  Best case scenario is the teacher was clueless about their students or lacked any imagination at all about the capabilities of a 6th grader - none of which makes me think better of the teacher’s teaching abilities.

The thing is that teachers need a LOT more intensive and extensive training to handle those classrooms and that teaching load to do so with any level of competence.  In nations that typically have such high numbers, the teachers have a lot more training and also, often the school day is no where near as long or the years in school all the way to 18. And most in the states aren’t getting that. In fact, the training is getting less and less the higher the load and bigger the classes. And the school days are getting longer and the years spent in are often 2/3 years of age all the way to 18-22 with college. At some point we need to accept that the teacher training for these situations amounts to warehouse management more than actually educating. That’s why there is far too much in common with schools and prisons - both are becoming more and more low-wage, low training supervision of people warehousing than actual educating.

And hell yes. That really concerns me whether my kids are in public schools or not. Because I don’t see much positive for generations of children living in those situations for 18 years and we all have to live in a society eventually formed by that.

I would also add that I don’t think many countries where larger class sizes are common have an expectation of academic kindergarten.  There is a BIG difference developmentally between even age 5 and 6. If you put off teaching academics until age 6, or better, 7, it’s going to be possible to be far less teacher intensive than at 5. There are reasons why I am willing to do private piano lessons at age 4-5, but I don’t do group lessons until age 7 unless each child has an adult or older sibling partner. 

[sassenach]

Why would anyone want a teen to have to write about sexual experiences? Or adult for that matter? That's so invasive and unnecessary. 

[Pam in CT]

There's a lot going on in this thread, and maybe this question is sufficiently tangential that I should start a new one, but I do have a question about DE.

(Through a GATE program) I took a number of college classes when I was still in (a not-very-high-quality) high school. I drove to the campus, sat down in a classroom that was otherwise wholly composed of college students, did the same assignments, and in all cases but one (particular story) the teacher had no idea I was 2-6 years younger than anyone else in the room.  When it was time to apply to college, I submitted one transcript from my high school and another from the college (from which, by that point, I had ~6 courses).  Sometimes the material was challenging from a developmental perspective. 

That is more-or-less what I've always understood DE to be about.  But from this thread I am coming to understand that experience is not at all what DE students are often getting; or the experience that parents of DE students want.

What is the rationale for a "DE" class that is conducted *inside the high school building* by *a HS teacher* to a class *comprised of high school aged students*?  How is that different in substance from an advanced high school class? 

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Meh. I was in 6th grade in 1985. I would not have been even slightly surprised by myself or any other kid my age doing that. I walked MILES all over the city at that age to go anywhere I wanted. Most kids my age did that it rode bikes. Lots of us have stories of walking or riding bikes miles to go do some cool thing with friends. I was the only kid I knew who didn’t have an allowance, most in my school certainly had enough pocket money to afford something like buying a book at a bookstore.  Best case scenario is the teacher was clueless about their students or lacked any imagination at all about the capabilities of a 6th grader - none of which makes me think better of the teacher’s teaching abilities.

He was a nice guy; he was new  to the program tho. That's a fair observation. I've never understood people who can sit and listen to, let alone do, reading aloud because my experience is that readers in this family would just as soon snatch the book from your hands and go off to finish it themselves. The snails pace is what spurred my classmates into action. Like, why is he reading this to us? Doesn't he know that we read? It was a funny experience to us kids. No harm, no foul. As a parent now, it's not something I'd ever feel pressed into action about other than to maybe warn the new guy about the precociousness of his charges. The book is a modern classic.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Pam in CT]

Also OT..

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

...I've never understood people who can sit and listen to let alone do reading aloud because my experience is that readers in this family would just as soon snatch the book from your hands and go off to finish it themselves. The snails pace is what spurred my classmates into action. Like, why is he reading this to us? Doesn't he know that we read? ...

OK this literally made me LOL.  My two younger kids, bless their cuddly hearts, both allowed me to read out loud to them til they were, like, 14.  Snuggled up, drawing or messing around with building materials or doing a puzzle or whatever, pausing the storyline regularly to expound on character development or narrative arc or philosophical tangents.  Some of my most cherished parent-child memories.

The eldest, OTOH, LITERALLY TOLD ME when she was about six and I was trying to read Hobbit to her because I loved it so much and wanted to share it with her...

Quote

Mom it is not reasonable to expect that I wait a whole day between chapters.  I CAN READ MYSELF.  Read to [little brother, then 2] if you want to read.

 

[Murphy101]

6 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

There's a lot going on in this thread, and maybe this question is sufficiently tangential that I should start a new one, but I do have a question about DE.

(Through a GATE program) I took a number of college classes when I was still in (a not-very-high-quality) high school. I drove to the campus, sat down in a classroom that was otherwise wholly composed of college students, did the same assignments, and in all cases but one (particular story) the teacher had no idea I was 2-6 years younger than anyone else in the room.  When it was time to apply to college, I submitted one transcript from my high school and another from the college (from which, by that point, I had ~6 courses).  Sometimes the material was challenging from a developmental perspective. 

That is more-or-less what I've always understood DE to be about.  But from this thread I am coming to understand that experience is not at all what DE students are often getting; or the experience that parents of DE students want.

What is the rationale for a "DE" class that is conducted *inside the high school building* by *a HS teacher* to a class *comprised of high school aged students*?  How is that different in substance from an advanced high school class? 

In the cases where I have seen “DE” inside the high school, the bottom line is they do not have any teachers to teach “upper level” anything anymore at many high schools. There are no calculus or physics teachers.  So they outsource it and to make parents feel better, they partner with the local community college to get it taught and give the kid college credit.

[Pam in CT]

re outsourcing advanced HS classes to community college:

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

In the cases where I have seen “DE” inside the high school, the bottom line is they do not have any teachers to teach “upper level” anything anymore at many high schools. There are no calculus or physics teachers.  So they outsource it and to make parents feel better, they partner with the local community college to get it taught and give the kid college credit.

TY. And are such classes physically taught on the community college campuses, or do the cc teachers trek on over to the high school?

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Also OT..

OK this literally made me LOL.  My two younger kids, bless their cuddly hearts, both allowed me to read out loud to them til they were, like, 14.  Snuggled up, drawing or messing around with building materials or doing a puzzle or whatever, pausing the storyline regularly to expound on character development or narrative arc or philosophical tangents.  Some of my most cherished parent-child memories.

The eldest, OTOH, LITERALLY TOLD ME when she was about six and I was trying to read Hobbit to her because I loved it so much and wanted to share it with her...

 

DS brought Valentine's Day candy to the librarian yesterday, lol. He came home and immediately requested I purchase the next book in the Alchemist series he's reading. He's been waiting over a week and the Amazon order he made was cancelled. Meanwhile, he picked up a graphic novel on the Somali refugees. Patience is not our strong suit.

 

16 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

There's a lot going on in this thread, and maybe this question is sufficiently tangential that I should start a new one, but I do have a question about DE.

(Through a GATE program) I took a number of college classes when I was still in (a not-very-high-quality) high school. I drove to the campus, sat down in a classroom that was otherwise wholly composed of college students, did the same assignments, and in all cases but one (particular story) the teacher had no idea I was 2-6 years younger than anyone else in the room.  When it was time to apply to college, I submitted one transcript from my high school and another from the college (from which, by that point, I had ~6 courses).  Sometimes the material was challenging from a developmental perspective. 

That is more-or-less what I've always understood DE to be about.  But from this thread I am coming to understand that experience is not at all what DE students are often getting; or the experience that parents of DE students want.

What is the rationale for a "DE" class that is conducted *inside the high school building* by *a HS teacher* to a class *comprised of high school aged students*?  How is that different in substance from an advanced high school class? 

In our area, high school students go to the community college. They need to have their own transportation to do this. Students without cars rely on AP (the school offers both).

Edited February 15, 2022 by Sneezyone

[sassenach]

I'm also going to add that I just graduated from California public college and at no point in my 5 years of school did I encounter anything deeply sexual. Now, I chose not to take classes that were specifically about sexuality, but I did take all of the typical sociology, English, humanities, etc courses. It's completely possible to have an entire college experience in a liberal, public college, without having to wade through explicit sexual content.

Edited February 15, 2022 by sassenach

[Murphy101]

Just now, Pam in CT said:

re outsourcing advanced HS classes to community college:

TY. And are such classes physically taught on the community college campuses, or do the cc teachers trek on over to the high school?

Idk about everywhere else.  Here, the cc and colleges are frankly also hurting for staff but not quite as badly as the public schools, so the teachers often trek between campuses. So the main campus, the Name of Highschool Campus,  and so forth. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, sassenach said:

I'm also going to add that I just graduated from California public college and at no point in my 5 years of school did I encounter anything deeply sexual. Now, I chose not to take classes that were specifically about sexuality, but I did take all of the typical sociology, English, humanities, etc courses. It's completely possible to have an entire college experience in a liberal, public college, without having to wade through sexual content.

Sexual content/discussion wasn't ever required. The brouhaha was, quite literally, a reaction to some prompts on those matters EXISTING in a book where other kinds of prompts were assigned.

[MEmama]

12 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

 

What is the rationale for a "DE" class that is conducted *inside the high school building* by *a HS teacher* to a class *comprised of high school aged students*?  How is that different in substance from an advanced high school class? 

The high school here offers a couple of DE classes; the teachers are specially trained and certified and the coursework is the same as the state university. We are in a small town, there is no large university near us at all. So our rigorous high school brings the class availability to the students who most need and want the challenge. It was an incredible opportunity for DS.

[Kassia]

4 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re outsourcing advanced HS classes to community college:

TY. And are such classes physically taught on the community college campuses, or do the cc teachers trek on over to the high school?

I've seen it done both ways.  And it's not always cc - sometimes it's a university professor.  

[Murphy101]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

He was a nice guy; he was new  to the program tho. That's a fair observation. I've never understood people who can sit and listen to, let alone do, reading aloud because my experience is that readers in this family would just as soon snatch the book from your hands and go off to finish it themselves. The snails pace is what spurred my classmates into action. Like, why is he reading this to us? Doesn't he know that we read? It was a funny experience to us kids. No harm, no foul. As a parent now, it's not something I'd ever feel pressed into action about other than to maybe warn the new guy about the precociousness of his charges. The book is a modern classic.

To be clear. I am not necessarily making a character statement about him. I presume most people are “nice” until proven otherwise. But “nice” and “good” are not the same thing. In this case I have no problem understand he was a nice guy who was not good at his job.  I’ll even happily add the proviso of not good at his job YET. 

[sassenach]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Sexual content/discussion wasn't ever required. The brouhaha was, quite literally, a reaction to some prompts on those matters EXISTING in a book where other kinds of prompts were assigned.

Ah, I see. That's what I get for skimming!

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I've seen it done both ways.  And it's not always cc - sometimes it's a university professor.  

The teachers are certified by the state university, or that’s my understanding. The expectations and content is the same as if the students were attending our state flagship. 
 

Students are awarded college credit because they earn it.

Edited February 15, 2022 by MEmama

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Kassia said:

I've seen it done both ways.  And it's not always cc - sometimes it's a university professor.  

Yes. Though even at our cc, we have university professors too. Unless they have tenure, many professors/teachers, teach at multiple locations to bring in additional income. 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

To be clear. I am not necessarily making a character statement about him. I presume most people are “nice” until proven otherwise. But “nice” and “good” are not the same thing. In this case I have no problem understand he was a nice guy who was not good at his job.  I’ll even happily add the proviso of not good at his job YET. 

No, I get it. What I think you're missing is that his class was MEMORABLE in a way that others were not. I had a lot of amazing teachers who were MEMORABLE because they had an impact on us. That is/was no small feat. I would take a million Mr. Federico's over the boring pablum that passes for acceptable content today.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Murphy101]

Just now, MEmama said:

The teachers are certified by the state university, or that’s my understanding. The expectations and content is the same as if the students were attending our state flagship. 

I know for a fact that it is not the same content when it is segregated to only high school students here. So do the teachers.  It’s not even hidden but the parents rarely know anything bc they just don’t ask questions or know how to ask the right questions.  That’s why we have students graduate with 4.0 but then get slammed with needing remedial everything at the community college. It’s not at all uncommon. It’s one reason so many drop out of college when the reality of adding 1-2 years to their college time and debt bc of all the remedial classes they have to take hits them.  

[MEmama]

6 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Ah, I see. That's what I get for skimming!

Honestly, I think that’s the desired outcome. This thread has nearly 3 pages containing various degrees of outrage over something that *never happened*. You’re not the only one (and I’m sure we are all guilty of skipping the articles in favor of the comment section from time to time!)

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

I know for a fact that it is not the same content when it is segregated to only high school students here. So do the teachers.  It’s not even hidden but the parents rarely know anything bc they just don’t ask questions or know how to ask the right questions.  That’s why we have students graduate with 4.0 but then get slammed with needing remedial everything at the community college. It’s not at all uncommon. It’s one reason so many drop out of college when the reality of adding 1-2 years to their college time and debt bc of all the remedial classes they have to take hits them.  

This is not a universal truth. It varies by location.

[MEmama]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I know for a fact that it is not the same content when it is segregated to only high school students here. So do the teachers.  It’s not even hidden but the parents rarely know anything bc they just don’t ask questions or know how to ask the right questions.  That’s why we have students graduate with 4.0 but then get slammed with needing remedial everything at the community college. It’s not at all uncommon. It’s one reason so many drop out of college when the reality of adding 1-2 years to their college time and debt bc of all the remedial classes they have to take hits them.  

Wow, that’s just…totally opposite of what we have. 😞 

DS reports that even from our small town (considered rural), small state high school he feels well prepared for his top rated university. I feel grateful he got what he needed. 

[Matryoshka]

34 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

What is the rationale for a "DE" class that is conducted *inside the high school building* by *a HS teacher* to a class *comprised of high school aged students*?  How is that different in substance from an advanced high school class? 

I don't get that either.  I don't think we have that in my state.  2/3 of my kids did DE; back in the day I did a college class (at a local 4-year) while in high school, but all were on the college campus, with college students, and without the teacher knowing the student's status as a high-schooler (unless they said something themselves).

If it's at a high school, with other high school students, and taught by a high-school teacher, then I also don't see how it's different from a ... high school class (even if honors or advanced).  Especially if there's no test (like with AP) to document that this is in fact covering what would be considered college-level material.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Matryoshka