Question, especially if you are a non-Christian religion or agnostic or atheist

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

As a now-atheist, I think there are absolutely atheists in foxholes, so to speak. Death can be final and complete and that can be ok. I obviously can’t speak for others, but I find this is one of the dichotomies between religious and nonreligious communities—it’s as if the religious believe that no one can truly be non-religious. Or that religious people think that non-religious people are somehow sad/lost/unfulfilled in their lives. It’s also not surprising to me that this conversation swirled back around to points of theology. When we talk about religion being the basis of a worldview and informing your thoughts and conversation—religious people tend to swing the convo back to religion. And non-religious people tend not to. Those of us who have had both types of experiences can “flip” between languages…but to hear my always-atheist friends talk about this culturally…they don’t necessarily flip between languages and find it very odd that religious people keep pushing a religious narrative in the everyday conversations.

I've been stifling my annoyance/bafflement at how quickly a question specifically aimed at non-Christians and atheists became essentially monopolized by Christian voices. I wanted to point it out, but it’s so on brand and typical I wasn’t sure how. Ironically, that brings us back around to the original question itself, for those of us who don’t live within that particular construct. 

[Scarlett]

So sorry @Quill

[Scarlett]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:13 PM, Quill said:

If you are in this category, and you live in the US (or another place where “Christian” is the dominant faith system), how do you navigate this or disclose this when you meet new people? So, what I notice is this: a lot of people who strongly identify with their Christian faith seem to assume that others will be the same way…or else they are quick to “make a statement” of some type that notifies others that they are a Christian. But they do this notification as if they assume surely everyone else is too. 
 

I just wonder what people who have a different faith system - Jewish, say, or Muslim - or who do not ascribe to any faith system usually do when this happens. Does the person “make a statement” in return? Say nothing? Change the subject? Is it better to get this out of the way early in a developing interaction? Or wait until some unignorable thing happens? 
 

 

I answered because I am very non mainstream and do not believe much of anything like the people around me who identify as Christian.  I also 'know' @Quill quite well and I don't think she has ever minded rabbit trails on her threads.  

20 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I've been stifling my annoyance/bafflement at how quickly a question specifically aimed at non-Christians and atheists became essentially monopolized by Christian voices. I wanted to point it out, but it’s so on brand and typical I wasn’t sure how. Ironically, that brings us back around to the original question itself, for those of us who don’t live within that particular construct. 

 

[Spryte]

28 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I've been stifling my annoyance/bafflement at how quickly a question specifically aimed at non-Christians and atheists became essentially monopolized by Christian voices. I wanted to point it out, but it’s so on brand and typical I wasn’t sure how. Ironically, that brings us back around to the original question itself, for those of us who don’t live within that particular construct. 

Yep. It’s noticeable. 
 

I’m not annoyed. Just baffled. And it’s predictable. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Spryte

[Spryte]

Quill, I’m so sorry for your loss. 
 

You will be in my thoughts. 
 

Sending hugs.

[Guest]

Just FTR: I do not mind the bunny trails. I didn’t intend to hear *only* from atheists or anything like that. It is okay for Christians to speak to their view; it is fine. 
 

I have not read every single reply because there are a lot of them and I have been attending to other things. But nothing I read was upsetting to me. It’s completely fine. 

[DreamerGirl]

Sorry for your loss @Quill

[MEmama]

I’m sorry to hear about your friend, @Quill. 😞 

[Frances]

9 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

The best example I've heard of that is when someone hears a siren and prays it's not their loved one in an auto accident or having a heart attack, or not their loved one's home on fire, etc. The event has already happened, the siren is in response. Do they think a prayer is going to convince God to undo the event? (Now obviously some people pray that whatever event triggered the emergency vehicle isn't a bad one--that no one has died or is seriously hurt, etc. And that is of course a totally different thing than praying that a specific person isn't involved in an event that has already occurred.)

And see my thoughts as a no longer Christian who lives very close to a hospital and fire station and so frequently hears sirens and the hospital helicopter taking off or landing, is sending good, healing thoughts to all those effected and their families. I’m not saying I can’t be just as selfish as the next person, but in this situation, it honestly never crossed my mind to hope someone I know wasn’t affected rather than to just feel bad and wish for the best for whomever is suffering.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Frances

[Melissa Louise]

Prayer is listening to God. Under stress, I regress and ask for things - it's a child's habit, but I know prayer is something very different. 

Nobody outside my homeschool life ever wanted to know my religion. 

In homeschool life, only the evangelical Protestant families were bothered (by my then atheism). Catholics etc didn't care. 

I can't imagine living in a place where it was a constant pressure. I'm no longer atheist, but it's good to live somewhere you can just meander along letting your spirituality evolve without pressure. 

 

[Pam in CT]

(( Quill )).  I'm so sorry.

 

 

[marbel]

I'm sorry about your friend, Quill.

[Laura Corin]

I'm sorry, @Quill

[annandatje]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

As a now-atheist, I think there are absolutely atheists in foxholes, so to speak. Death can be final and complete and that can be ok. I obviously can’t speak for others, but I find this is one of the dichotomies between religious and nonreligious communities—it’s as if the religious believe that no one can truly be non-religious. Or that religious people think that non-religious people are somehow sad/lost/unfulfilled in their lives. It’s also not surprising to me that this conversation swirled back around to points of theology. When we talk about religion being the basis of a worldview and informing your thoughts and conversation—religious people tend to swing the convo back to religion. And non-religious people tend not to. Those of us who have had both types of experiences can “flip” between languages…but to hear my always-atheist friends talk about this culturally…they don’t necessarily flip between languages and find it very odd that religious people keep pushing a religious narrative in the everyday conversations.

Same here.  A chatty oncologic nurse was asking if I had seen a doctor for a particular ailment.  Responded honestly that I did not intend to seek treatment for said ailment.  She replied by asking me what I thought happened to body upon death even though the particular ailment was not life threatening.  I said that corpse began the decomposition process so she clarified that she meant the soul to which I responded that I had never seen any objectively verifiable evidence for a consciousness that survives death.  She seemed genuinely sad upon learning I did not believe in any type of afterlife, any future system of rewards and punishments, and that deities did not exist but were more likely created by humans to squelch fears and universal uncertainty.  However, she claimed that I would indeed "repent" and "go home to the lord" when death imminent.  I let it go.  I live in a state that is already the laughingstock of the nation with good reason. 

If I recall correctly, Richard Dawkins stated that he intended to have witnesses to death who could refute any future false claim that he converted on deathbed.  

Edited January 17, 2022 by annandatje

[annandatje]

56 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Yep. It’s noticeable. 
 

I’m not annoyed. Just baffled. And it’s predictable. 

Color me flummoxed too.  Sometimes think I should read all replies before I post but too lazy and apathetic for that degree of detail in my discretionary time.

[catz]

I am so sorry for your loss Quill.  That is absolutely heartbreaking.  Way too young.  😞  

Also sighing over the turn this thread took as one directed specifically toward non-Christians Then seem to move into specific theology and dogma squabbles.   I expect rabbit trails but whoa.   It makes me want to totally bow out the discussion like this even though I found the original question interesting to follow.  Agree it's pretty predictable here. 

Totally agree there are atheists in foxholes.  I  think the religious tend to think of the non-religious as void of something and they'll "come to their senses".

[Ceilingfan]

I am an atheist; I have had experiences where I was legitimately afraid I would die (and the fear and legitimacy of the fear lasted for more than a second, not one of those "Damn! I almost hit that deer!" things). I didn't become religious during the experience. For me, believing in a concrete God or Jesus or whatever is as unlikely as it would be for a Christian to reach their deathbed and suddenly believe that Zeus impregnated a swan.

[annandatje]

Quill, here is another example for you:

When I moved to a small town of around 30,000 in this state, I was still in elementary school.  In 6th grade, a school friend invited me to her Southern Baptist church's summer vacation bible school which she sold as a fun arts and crafts adventure.  It was indeed fun Monday through Thursday.  On Friday, all of us had to go to a religious service in the sanctuary where we were subjected to hellfire and brimstone altar call.  I am a lifelong atheist but always knew to sit quietly and respectfully in church.  The teacher boldly walked to pew I was sitting in with friends and began to castigate me for not allowing Jesus into my heart.  Still I sat there like a stone not knowing how to reply to teacher so I remained silent.  

I told this story couple decades later to a co-worker of mine who informed me that Baptists "do not do that anymore."  

Edited January 17, 2022 by annandatje

[Laura Corin]

7 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Totally agree there are atheists in foxholes.  I  think the religious tend to think of the non-religious as void of something and they'll "come to their senses".

My father was quite sure that there was no afterlife. He knew he was dying and had no change of heart - he accepted that it was time.

[wintermom]

I don't live in the US, but I'd say that in general that christianity is stil the dominant religion in Canada. I attended public school, and we recited the Lord's Prayer daily in elementary school back in my day. This doesn't happen now. Our christian culture seems to be much more similar to Europe and maybe Australia and New Zealand. There are definitely strong influences from the US, however. I think the "christianese" lingo has seaped across the boarder, especially in the evangelical communities. 

I think the original scenario the OP described (a stranger spontaneously talking about God, prayer, blessings, etc.) rarely happens in settings outside of churches, religious communities or among people who know they are all christian. This includes the homeschooling community. I've only lived in urban centres, though, so it's possible small-town Canada is a little different however they'd probably know who belongs to which church or not.

I've been friends with a couple people who moved to Canada from Georgia/North Carolina. They both stated that christian culture is "cold" in Canada. It's very different to what they're used to, that's for sure. 

I will say, though, that when I've attended meetings that were organized by a religious institution, even when the subject of the meeting wasn't specifically religious, Canadians can use all the christian terms mentioned in this thread. We just don't extend these terms and expressions into language used in public settings. Why not? I have no idea. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by wintermom

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

I've been stifling my annoyance/bafflement at how quickly a question specifically aimed at non-Christians and atheists became essentially monopolized by Christian voices. I wanted to point it out, but it’s so on brand and typical I wasn’t sure how. Ironically, that brings us back around to the original question itself, for those of us who don’t live within that particular construct. 

I mean, I never mind when people add thoughts to a conversation but, to go back to the point…
One thing I’ve never had the cojones to do when people are sharing their beliefs is straight up inject “I can respect that, but here are the reasons I know I’m right.”
No matter how strongly I feel about my worldview, and how entirely my life is wrapped up in it, I don’t find it appropriate to poop on others’ perspectives (when they aren’t hurting anybody.) And yet, sometimes I wish I could bring myself to do it just so other people would know what that’s like.

[CTVKath]

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend, Quill.

[Carrie12345]

24 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

I am an atheist; I have had experiences where I was legitimately afraid I would die (and the fear and legitimacy of the fear lasted for more than a second, not one of those "Damn! I almost hit that deer!" things). I didn't become religious during the experience. For me, believing in a concrete God or Jesus or whatever is as unlikely as it would be for a Christian to reach their deathbed and suddenly believe that Zeus impregnated a swan.

I’ve been rushed into surgery twice, and nearly rushed in an additional time in labor. The only entities I turned to were the medical professionals around me. That’s fine! And, hey, it worked in all 3 cases, so… 😉 

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I mean, I never mind when people add thoughts to a conversation but, to go back to the point…
One thing I’ve never had the cojones to do when people are sharing their beliefs is straight up inject “I can respect that, but here are the reasons I know I’m right.”
No matter how strongly I feel about my worldview, and how entirely my life is wrapped up in it, I don’t find it appropriate to poop on others’ perspectives (when they aren’t hurting anybody.) And yet, sometimes I wish I could bring myself to do it just so other people would know what that’s like.

I had similar thoughts when someone told me "you should really go to church!"  How would it be appropriate for me to say to her "you should really not go to church"?

But they don't see that it's the same thing. 

[Frances]

I’m so sorry for your loss, Quill.

[Frances]

My brother said fairly recently to me that most of the problems in the US were caused by people who did not regularly attend church. My response was, “ You mean people like me, and my husband, and your nephew?” He didn’t have a response.

[DreamerGirl]

My biggest personal loss was of a much wanted baby. But when I was broken, I was held literally and figuratively by family and friends. I had a lot of prayer surround me. I did not have any of that when delta hit my country of origin. In fact we were the better ones. It was like being the only house standing when the entire rest of the neighborhood was flattened. I was supposed to be a comfort to those who were hurting and I could not. The scale of loss was so much. 

I had so much turmoil, questions, anger and guilt because we did not have any loss of life in our family and DH's of parents and siblings. My mental health was not so good until I let go of the idea that God cared. Any God because I saw so much prayer sent up of all religions. 

It led me down a path of more freedom. I was not burdened for the first time about passing on my faith, making sure I got to heaven. I am ok with not knowing.

But I still find comfort in the ritual of prayer. I do not know who I pray to or even if anyone is listening. But I still meditate every day now to chanting of various religions. Sitting still and quieting my mind is a good thing. I still gratitude journal every day. Maintain a "prayer journal" where I write the names of people and things I want to "pray" and think of them and send out my most sincere thoughts for them, that their needs are met.

I still wear a cross, I've always worn a cross on my person even as a child. I have a habit of holding it when I am stressed. I used to pray before, now I use it as a worry stone or stress reliever. That ritual is something that helps calm me. I now recognize it for what it was, a ritual without the added burden of belief. Yet the loss of religion, even if it is a choice I made is hard. Advent especially was hard. I did so many things like muscle memory so I keep things that mean the most to me.

I've thought a lot about my grandparents these two years. They lived a hard life. Lots of loss ue to TB, raising nieces and nephews who lost parents, world war, colonization. Theirs was a simple faith. I wonder if they really had that faith or went through the motions because ostracization was a really possibility if they left. Perhaps I am the snow flake who wilts when the going gets tough or am I someone who has the freedom to truly walk away without much of consequence because I have the true freedom to do so. Something like this would make me so anxious before, but now I wonder in a philosophical sense. 

I would also like to know how faith has been impacted during the pandemic after a few years when it is truly over. This too shall pass, that is something from the Bible I still believe in.

[Spryte]

5 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I mean, I never mind when people add thoughts to a conversation but, to go back to the point…
One thing I’ve never had the cojones to do when people are sharing their beliefs is straight up inject “I can respect that, but here are the reasons I know I’m right.”
No matter how strongly I feel about my worldview, and how entirely my life is wrapped up in it, I don’t find it appropriate to poop on others’ perspectives (when they aren’t hurting anybody.) And yet, sometimes I wish I could bring myself to do it just so other people would know what that’s like.

Yes. I sometimes feel like I spend an enormous amount of time and energy being tolerant of others’ views. Deliberately, intentionally, and sincerely. I am very comfortable saying, thinking, feeling that however a person finds peace is fine with me. It genuinely is. I don’t attempt to change anyone’s beliefs, in fact, I rarely mention my own. It’s private. But it does become tiresome at times, the sense that someone is trying to convert one, or change, fix one, whatever you want to call it. 
 

And I too had a brush with fearing for my life this year. Twice, actually. It didn’t change anything about my convictions, even when I was lying in the hospital alone (because of Covid restrictions on visiting).

[Spryte]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

My brother said fairly recently to me that most of the problems in the US were caused by people who did not regularly attend church. My response was, “ You mean people like me, and my husband, and your nephew?” He didn’t have a response.

You troublemakers, you! 🤣

 

 

(You know I’m right there with you, right?)

[Frances]

I don’t mind any of the rabbit trails or any of the Christians chiming in on this thread. What really bothers me in general, and sometimes on this board, is that it often seems to be assumed or stated that non-religious people, and especially non-Christians, are missing a steadfast moral compass in their lives and how could one truly be a good person and raise good, moral children without religion? 
 

Besides being infuriating, it honestly flabbergasts me that given history, anyone could possibly see religion, especially Christianity, as providing any assurance of moral or ethical behavior. If people didn’t realize this before, surely the events of the last six years had to have opened their eyes wide?

Personally, I also don’t even really understand the desire for an afterlife. We’re born, we live, it’s usually a mix of good and bad, we try to do our best by ourselves and for others, and we die. The end.

[TravelingChris]

6 hours ago, QueenCat said:

Oh, I know about how many Evangelical Christians think this and the fact that they are wrong on this. I used to live in an area like that. Catholics were very unwelcome in the Christian homeschool groups.

Change that to those Christian groups.  I have been in several Christian homeschool groups that were very welcoming to Catholics, including one led by a Southern Baptist pastor.  And no, he wasn't proselytizing to all of us.  Another was at a Methodist church,  Another was at a Evangelical Free Church which I am not quite sure about Catholics but I do know there was at least one Greek Orthodox family,  and I can\t really remember about all the others- whether they were welcoming of Catholics or not.  We are not Catholic and I don't question people normally about where they go to church either and I can't remember the rules for any of them at all.  I just know that the one in the VA suburb of DC that was Southern Baptist definitely had Catholics because I knew a number of them there and the one here at the Methodist Church had Catholics too and even Unitarians.   

[TravelingChris]

11 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

The best example I've heard of that is when someone hears a siren and prays it's not their loved one in an auto accident or having a heart attack, or not their loved one's home on fire, etc. The event has already happened, the siren is in response. Do they think a prayer is going to convince God to undo the event? (Now obviously some people pray that whatever event triggered the emergency vehicle isn't a bad one--that no one has died or is seriously hurt, etc. And that is of course a totally different thing than praying that a specific person isn't involved in an event that has already occurred.)

I don;t pray for my house being safe or my person not being the one in the car crash but rather lift those affected up in prayer. At least not when I am thinking well- not sure what I think when I am having an adrenal crash which causes super fatigue.

[annandatje]

4 minutes ago, Frances said:

.... What really bothers me in general, and sometimes on this board, is that it often seems to be assumed or stated that non-religious people, and especially non-Christians, are missing a steadfast moral compass in their lives and how could one truly be a good person and raise good, moral children without religion? ...

Ah, reminds me of an experience my husband had with a business associate while on a flight.  Business associate started the predictable Southern queries about religious affiliation.  Associate actually asked him, "How do you raise moral children without believing in god?"  Husband went on to give a well thought out response to which associate replied, "What about Satanists?"  Husband replied that he supposed Satanists would go where they wanted to go.  Puzzled the associate into temporary silence.

[Pam in CT]

40 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

My father was quite sure that there was no afterlife. He knew he was dying and had no change of heart - he accepted that it was time.

Mine too.  Atheist to his core, right to the end; and fully at peace.

 

{I don't know if it made any difference, but in his case, he wasn't in a foxhole. He had time to get his affairs in order, see my mother settled, say goodbye to everyone he wanted to see, get used to the idea. He led a good long life; and was old, and sick, and in pain: it was time. 

For some people suddenly staring death down, it isn't, or doesn't seem to be anyway -- they're young, they have kids still to raise, they have not had time to complete their life purpose, etc. Those are the ones about whom I think the foxhole aphorism came about.}

[TravelingChris]

6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I am always fascinated and troubled by people losing their faith in the face of personal loss.  But I was never taught that we will have our troubles miraculously solved.  I was taught that we are living in a fallen and imperfect world and time and unforeseen things befall us all.  These things aren't punishment from God.  Even when we have consequences from our  own poor choices (addiction leading to health problems, wreckless behavior leading to injury etc) those are consequences not punishment directly from God.

What I was taught was to pray for things that are in harmony with God's will and purpose.  And for the necessities required for survival (this includes more than physical survival).  And that God will help us to endure the bad things of this imperfect world.

Regardless, these things are tough.  I am sorry so many of you have suffered so much.  Life is tough I think.

 

I am from a completely different religious background than you but that is exactly how I was brought up and also how I brought up my kids.

I had a friend in NM who was a Greek Orthodox because she married a man who was Greek until he became a US Citizen and was Greek Orthodox,  She had been raised in the Methodist Church, I am only mentioning her religious background because both of those denominations stress the above and are not a name it, claim it kinds of churches.  I am not sure which denomination another friend of hers was but that friend kept telling her stuff like if she doesn't pray in certain ways- walk around the outside of her house-she wasn't protecting her house.  If she didn't pray enough for healing, it wouldn't happen.  All this kind of BS.  While I was there, I was a counter-measure to that friend.  This lady was very anxious naturally.  Her friend's suggestions were adding greatly to her anxiety.  I was trying to get her to talk with either the Greek Orthodox priest or maybe a Methodist pastor to disavow her of these dangerous ideas.

[Tree Frog]

On 1/17/2022 at 4:31 PM, annandatje said:

I told this story couple decades later to a co-worker of mine who informed me that Baptists "do not do that anymore."  

Gonna disagree with that. Maybe they've just changed their methods. 😕

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Tree Frog

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

 

And literally, as I am typing that, I just got the text that my friend just died of Covid. Around 56 years is all she got. So, might as well do the best you can with the life you get because we are all terminal. 

I am very sorry for your loss. 

Both dh and I are of the same mindset that we should do the best with the life we have and not focus as much as a lot of people do on long plans in the future.  None of us know how long we have---COVID has brought that closer to view for many but I have had that view for a long while. 

[TravelingChris]

20 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

the other is “we all have our cross to bear” which almost every time actually translates to  “oh well better you than me - I got my own problems”

This irks more than the first one bc no one has their own cross to bear. Not even Christ could bear his own cross.  Do people who say this not know that fact?!  Have they never read the gospels?!

I reread this post while looking for the last post I had read and realized that I did think that Christ bore his own cross---mainly I think because of that movie that came out about 15 years ago which had Christ carrying his own cross.  (I have read the whole Bible and lots of it more than one time and the gospels probably more like 10 times at least but my memory is more global than mired in particulars).  I decided to read the accounts in the 4 gospels- and you are right- Mathew, Mark and Luke all say Simon of Cyrene was forced to carry the cross, but John says that Christ carried the cross and I guess the movie used that gospel?  Or maybe parts of various ones???? 

I don't think that is a saying I use but reading this will make me hopefully refrain from it, if I ever do use it.  I think I just use the more general- everyone has problems and you don't know what problems other people have.

[catz]

26 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Change that to those Christian groups.  I have been in several Christian homeschool groups that were very welcoming to Catholics, including one led by a Southern Baptist pastor.  And no, he wasn't proselytizing to all of us.  Another was at a Methodist church,  Another was at a Evangelical Free Church which I am not quite sure about Catholics but I do know there was at least one Greek Orthodox family,  and I can\t really remember about all the others- whether they were welcoming of Catholics or not.  We are not Catholic and I don't question people normally about where they go to church either and I can't remember the rules for any of them at all.  I just know that the one in the VA suburb of DC that was Southern Baptist definitely had Catholics because I knew a number of them there and the one here at the Methodist Church had Catholics too and even Unitarians.   

As former Catholic and current Unitarians, we did some "welcoming" groups like this as newer homeschoolers and there was still plenty of passive aggressive stuff anyway that made us uncomfortable.  Not all the time and certainly not from everyone in the group but it was really common as an outsider in this kind of religious setting.  But we did put up with it for a few years early in our homeschooling journey when there wasn't quite as much truly welcoming and secular stuff available.  I do think newer homeschooling parents looking for community are more willing to put up with that for a while.  

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, annandatje said:

Quill, here is another example for you:

When I moved to a small town of around 30,000 in this state, I was still in elementary school.  In 6th grade, a school friend invited me to her Southern Baptist church's summer vacation bible school which she sold as a fun arts and crafts adventure.  It was indeed fun Monday through Thursday.  On Friday, all of us had to go to a religious service in the sanctuary where we were subjected to hellfire and brimstone altar call.  I am a lifelong atheist but always knew to sit quietly and respectfully in church.  The teacher boldly walked to pew I was sitting in with friends and began to castigate me for not allowing Jesus into my heart.  Still I sat there like a stone not knowing how to reply to teacher so I remained silent.  

I told this story couple decades later to a co-worker of mine who informed me that Baptists "do not do that anymore."  

We are Christians but not of this variety.  When we were living overseas, we attended a base chapel but as homeschoolers, knew other homeschoolers who went to either the other base's chapel or some service someplace else.  One of my daughters was taking an English class or writing class or something like that with one of the homeschooling moms.  They were missionaries, I believe, in their denomination and also offered a service for base people or maybe base and locals.  I think it was a Church of Christ or maybe Church of God (and I know that there are several different denominations with these names, with something following the name like Church of God, some state or city name.  I don't know which exact denomination they were).  Anyway, they were taking kids to the Netherlands to go indoor skiing.  My daughter was old enough to go and had never been skiing and wanted to go.  The skiing was fun.  The religious service or sermon or whatever it was was not- she got very freaked out-  they were calling out demons, and people were talking in tongues and it wasn't anything that any of us had ever witnessed in our lives and so she hadn't either.  And not a benign talking in tongues experience---really intense, hellfire and demon kind of sermon along with the escaping of devils or whatnot  When she came home, I had to explain to her that we believe that suggestible people will start attacking like they have something like a devil inside them in a situation like that.  It doesn't mean that they were actually possessed.  Nor those people talking in "tongues" mean they actually have special communication from God.  (as an aside, in Polish, the word for language is the same as tongue and since the first preaching the Apostles did was speak to a crowd where everyone understood in their language, I always figured that the references to speaking in tongues in the Bible and someone understanding meant that someone spoke in a different language and someone else could translate).

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, annandatje said:

 

I told this story couple decades later to a co-worker of mine who informed me that Baptists "do not do that anymore."  

Baptists are all independent.  One Baptist church may do that another may not.  There are many Baptist denominations-American Baptist, Southern Baptist, Primitive Baptist, etc, etc.  But even in a group- there are plenty of differences. In the VA suburbs I was in, the Southern Baptists tended to be much more willing to interact with others from other denominations, and probably weren't as likely to use VBS to scare kids.  OTOH,  the Southern Baptist churches that my dd and dsil visited in MS were much more likely to be those kinds of places.  But not all of them.  

[TravelingChris]

22 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

As former Catholic and current Unitarians, we did some "welcoming" groups like this as newer homeschoolers and there was still plenty of passive aggressive stuff anyway that made us uncomfortable.  Not all the time and certainly not from everyone in the group but it was really common as an outsider in this kind of religious setting.  But we did put up with it for a few years early in our homeschooling journey when there wasn't quite as much truly welcoming and secular stuff available.  I do think newer homeschooling parents looking for community are more willing to put up with that for a while.  

These were parents with kids in  high school homeschool classes.  These weren't new homeschoolers at all.  But these homeschool groups were all in the areas where there were a lot of well educated people and the homeschool parents tended to be much better educated than in some places.  I specifically chose these groups because of their more open nature.  In all three areas where I knew it wasn't just Protestants allowed, there were other groups that were more restrictive.  

I mean we had to put up with digs too-after all we aren't young earth creationists-- and my husband is a physicist.  That was a big surprise to one homeschool mom near the end of our association with that group-  we were being transferred.  In a group that probably was only for Protestants, I had to switch my daughter from one class to another because it was again in a young earth way even though the subject they were talking about shouldn't have had any creationist ideas at all. The Southern Baptist dance had stricter rules than I would generally want but it was their facilities and their rules.  In both the Southern Baptist and the Methodist class there were classes that I didn't feel my kids should take because of our beliefs.  Neither of my daughters took an apologetics class at the Southern Baptist homeschool co-op and my youngest didn't take the astronomy class at the Methodist homeschool classes because I knew the teacher was young earth, plus she got a lot of astronomy at home and going to the astronomical society events that my husband was involved with plus he did astronomical viewing on his own too and she would usually go with him.

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

I don't think that is a saying I use but reading this will make me hopefully refrain from it, if I ever do use it.  I think I just use the more general- everyone has problems and you don't know what problems other people have.

Each one carries his own load, but we are told to carry each other's burdens.  I like that model. 🙂

I will chime in that "we all have our crosses to bear" has always come across to me as "suck it up buttercup!  You're not special!"

[goldberry]

28 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

my youngest didn't take the astronomy class at the Methodist homeschool classes because I knew the teacher was young earth, plus she got a lot of astronomy at home and going to the astronomical society events that my husband was involved with plus he did astronomical viewing on his own too and she would usually go with him.

Struggling to imagine a young earth astronomy class... 😳

[SKL]

20 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Each one carries his own load, but we are told to carry each other's burdens.  I like that model. 🙂

I will chime in that "we all have our crosses to bear" has always come across to me as "suck it up buttercup!  You're not special!"

Another possible use is when we remind ourselves or our kids, during our difficult times, that everyone else has struggles too.  That struggle is a part of every life.  It can be a reminder that our burden is relatively light compared to many.

I would never say that to someone else.  I'd assume that whatever troubles they were telling me were probably the tip of the iceberg.

[Lady Florida.]

I'm so sorry for your loss Quill. 

[MercyA]

7 hours ago, MEmama said:

I've been stifling my annoyance/bafflement at how quickly a question specifically aimed at non-Christians and atheists became essentially monopolized by Christian voices. I wanted to point it out, but it’s so on brand and typical I wasn’t sure how. Ironically, that brings us back around to the original question itself, for those of us who don’t live within that particular construct. 

Every thread has rabbit trails, and I wouldn't have posted if I thought Quill would mind. 

It's not baffling at all to me that a thread about spiritual discussions would potentially lead to...spiritual discussion.

I am sorry to have annoyed you.

Edited January 18, 2022 by MercyA

[MercyA]

6 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Also sighing over the turn this thread took as one directed specifically toward non-Christians Then seem to move into specific theology and dogma squabbles.   I expect rabbit trails but whoa.   It makes me want to totally bow out the discussion like this even though I found the original question interesting to follow.  Agree it's pretty predictable here. 

Again, sorry. I don't want you to bow out so I'll start a new thread if something theology-related and potentially interesting to others comes up. I wasn't intending to squabble with or convert anyone; just responding to others' thoughts as usual. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by MercyA

[Guest]

@annandatje your story is why I never took my own kids to vacation Bible school, even though I was an involved Christian for several years. The VBS I went to as a kid was not *quite* as bad as you describe, but without question, the point was to try to “reach the unchurched” and save them in between the puppets and ice cream. We were told things like, “Don’t you want your friends to go to heaven and not hell?” It is also sickening to think we were prompted to examine our friends in order to determine who needed this message the most. 

[MEmama]

7 hours ago, MercyA said:

Every thread has rabbit trails, and I wouldn't have posted if I thought Quill would mind. 

It's not baffling at all to me that a thread about spiritual discussions would potentially lead to...spiritual discussion.

I am sorry to have annoyed you.

It’s not the rabbit trails, it’s the predictably. And the irony that in a question specifically asking about living in a culture where the default assumption is that everyone is Christian, most of the posts end up illustrating why the question needed to be asked in the first place. “Annoyed” wasn’t the right word on my part, maybe just tired.

I view the original question as similar to asking how to deal with the default that everyone is white, or straight, or middle class when you aren’t. Sometimes it’s nice to be asked and actually listened to without having to shout over the clamor, you know?  
 

As all threads do, this one has taken a turn and that’s obviously fine, but I think it’s fair to audibly sigh about it. As others have mentioned, there’s a lot of staying silent when you don’t fit in the expected tidy boxes, and it does get exhausting. 
 

Carry on! 🙂