UAH admissions becoming adversarial toward homeschoolers

[RegGuheert]

Our seventh and youngest child just applied to the University of Alabama, Huntsville.  Our twins are currently there and we have been pleased with the education they are receiving.

But the application process at UAH has become much more daunting for homeschoolers.  In fact, I would say that they have worked over the past three years to make it much more difficult for homeschoolers to apply to the school.

Three years ago, UAH had a permanent employee working in admissions who had graduated from the school, but who had also been homeschooled herself.  She was the contact for all homeschooled students applying to the school.  At that time, the school had one additional requirement for homeschoolers that did not apply to public-schooled students:  They required us to provide course descriptions for all courses listed on the transcript.  We had already created such a document for scholarship applications, so this was not a big deal to us.  Long story short:  The twins were accepted, with very generous scholarships, the very next day after the school received their applications.  It was quick, easy, and, frankly, welcoming.

Today the requirements for homeschoolers are seemingly the same, but looks can be deceiving.  They no longer have a homeschooler on staff to work with homeschooled applicants.  In addition, they have decided that homeschools cannot submit high-school transcripts for their students like every other school submits.  Instead, UAH has a new fillable PDF which MUST be filled out by homeschools.  So, instead of simply sending our student's transcript to them along with the course descriptions, we must spend hours struggling with this form to create something which is virtually unreadable.  (They even emailed me instructions explaining how to deal with the form's idiosyncrasies.)

But I did it.  I spent several hours carefully copying the information from our son's official transcript into the schools bureaucratic form, printed it out, signed it, and mailed it to them.  It was unreadable, but how could I fix that?

A couple of weeks passed before receiving an email from them entitled "Complete The UAH Application Process Today" which included the sentence "Our records indicate that DS17's application is incomplete."  Later that day I got a call from the Admissions Counselor for our state who told me that the PDF which I sent to them was not acceptable because I had provided letter grades for my son's classes rather than numerical grades.  I told him that I had just spoken with our local high school and asked if they EVER provided numerical grades on transcripts.  The answer was a clear "No."

So I asked the Admissions Counselor why UAH was requiring homeschoolers to provide numerical scores for each of their classes while they do NOT require this from any other schools.  He didn't have an answer for that and said that I could just make up numbers for the form if I didn't have them.

So I'm now left with this option:  Either fabricate scores for my son's high school transcript and then certify it or let it sit "incomplete".

I told the counselor I am more inclined to contact the school's upper management in order to find out why they are being so adversarial toward homeschoolers all of a sudden.  To his credit, he indicated that he was sympathetic and he promised to take the message to upper management himself.

Anyway, I find it frustrating that this school, which has a strong contingent of homeschoolers on campus, has decided to erect such high barriers to a group which now comprises one in nine high-school students in this country.

Because of this frustration with the weird application requirements combined with big reductions in scholarships now available, I am inclined to send my son elsewhere.  In any case, I have no intention to fabricate this transcript data just to suit some anti-homeschooling bureaucrat.  Frankly, they could use such a fabrication as an excuse to reject the application if they really wanted to.

If you have a student to wants to attend UAH, you are forewarned.

Has anyone else found this form to be particularly onerous?

 

[bibiche]

Why would converting the letter grades to numerical grades be “fabricating” grades?

[kokotg]

We've encountered the fill out this form instead of submitting a transcript thing at a couple of public colleges lately; it's annoying, but it hasn't been too complicated in our case (they didn't require number grades; that would have been aggravating). I think it's fairly common for big public schools to want you to do something like that (or to want to see a lot of extra test scores for homeschoolers) so that everything's very standardized and they can see at a glance how your student compares. Small privates, on the other hand, if they have extra requirements for homeschoolers, tend to want sort of the opposite--instead of condensing all the information to numbers and test scores, they're more likely to ask for lengthy course descriptions, extra essays, or portfolios. If I got to pick I'd rather wrestle with an extra form...sadly my kid's applying to a big enough range of schools that we get to do some of each. 

[teachermom2834]

We visited UAH and met with admissions two years ago and my ds who is currently a freshman elsewhere applied there last cycle.

The admissions guy we met with left us with the impression they had been burned by homeschoolers in the past. Not necessarily on campus but in admissions. He indicated that they had gotten really strange transcripts and that they were difficult to read and make sense of. He didn't seem adversarial towards homeschoolers at all. He seemed to be trying to make sure they could read what was submitted. He literally said "we need something we can read."  (another school we visited in the same timeframe indicated the same thing- a desire for something they could understand). We never got those comments with the older kids so it left me wondering what homeschoolers have been submitting. ????

We actually bypassed the whole fuss when ds applied because he had an umbrella school. Last year, if the homeschooler was applying with a transcript from an umbrella school they didn't need to submit course descriptions or anything else that brick and mortar schoolers didn't. It appeared that the reason this bypassed the homeschool requirements was because "they could read it."

 

[Dmmetler]

5 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

We visited UAH and met with admissions two years ago and my ds who is currently a freshman elsewhere applied there last cycle.

The admissions guy we met with left us with the impression they had been burned by homeschoolers in the past. Not necessarily on campus but in admissions. He indicated that they had gotten really strange transcripts and that they were difficult to read and make sense of. He didn't seem adversarial towards homeschoolers at all. He seemed to be trying to make sure they could read what was submitted. He literally said "we need something we can read."  (another school we visited in the same timeframe indicated the same thing- a desire for something they could understand). We never got those comments with the older kids so it left me wondering what homeschoolers have been submitting. ????

We actually bypassed the whole fuss when ds applied because he had an umbrella school. Last year, if the homeschooler was applying with a transcript from an umbrella school they didn't need to submit course descriptions or anything else that brick and mortar schoolers didn't. It appeared that the reason this bypassed the homeschool requirements was because "they could read it."

 

Same here. L applied last year (and it was the first choice until pretty late in the process). They seemed very relieved that we had an umbrella school. 

[RegGuheert]

7 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

He indicated that they had gotten really strange transcripts and that they were difficult to read and make sense of. He didn't seem adversarial towards homeschoolers at all. He seemed to be trying to make sure they could read what was submitted. He literally said "we need something we can read."

If only.  The transcripts and course descriptions we submitted were very clear and readable.  The PDF form they provide is much *less* readable for the transcript, but the course description form is, literally, unreadable.  If you don't believe me, you can download it from the link I provided above.  Note that the field for the description of the course is the same size as the field for the course name.  If you paste an actual description of the course in there, the font gets so small that you cannot possibly read it once printed (and they require an ink signature, so electronic versions are no good anymore).

[MamaSprout]

UAH was #5 on Dd's list after visiting. Because it wasn't a Common App school, she just opted not to apply.

I've had to do the "transfer transcript to pdf form" thing for scholarships and I still submit our regular transcript as an attachment. I can imagine they get some "creative" transcripts, though.

[teachermom2834]

Just now, RegGuheert said:

If only.  The transcripts and course descriptions we submitted were very clear and readable.  The PDF form they provide is much *less* readable for the transcript, but the course description form is, literally, unreadable.  If you don't believe me, you can download it from the link I provided above.  Note that the field for the description of the course is the same size as the field for the course name.  If you paste an actual description of the course in there, the font gets so small that you cannot possibly read it once printed (and they require an ink signature, so electronic versions are no good anymore).

I absolutely believe you. I never said that what you submitted was unreadable. I think you are paying the price for homeschoolers before you that didn't submit proper applications. I doubt any poster on these boards would ever be in that group. 

I was just chiming in that my personal experience was not that UAH didn't want homeschoolers but that they had problems with the applications they submitted. For whatever reason they didn't feel like what they were getting from homeschoolers was making it easy enough to tick off the boxes they needed to when they reviewed the application. 

[RegGuheert]

7 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I absolutely believe you. I never said that what you submitted was unreadable. I think you are paying the price for homeschoolers before you that didn't submit proper applications. I doubt any poster on these boards would ever be in that group. 

I was just chiming in that my personal experience was not that UAH didn't want homeschoolers but that they had problems with the applications they submitted. For whatever reason they didn't feel like what they were getting from homeschoolers was making it easy enough to tick off the boxes they needed to when they reviewed the application. 

I'm sure it is a problem with homeschoolers. 

My point is that THEIR form is unreadable.  So they didn't FIX anything bur have made the process much more onerous than it used to be, regardless of their intentions.

ETA:  The main issue is that their transcript is extremely non-standard in that they *require* numerical grades to be provided.

Edited December 2, 2021 by RegGuheert
Added ETA.

[fourisenough]

We encountered a couple of schools who wanted things submitted their way; we simply refused and just gave them what we gave everyone else. If they don’t want to look at my well-organized and professional documents for my high stats kid, too bad for them. It helps that none of these schools were especially attractive to my DD. I also didn’t answer any of the homeschool-specific questions on the Common App, instead redirecting them to my uploaded documents by saying ‘see course descriptions’ or ‘see school profile’.

I’ll let you know how that worked for us at the end of this admissions cycle 😅. So far, she has been accepted everywhere (rolling admissions) with great merit scholarships; time will tell on the RD apps in at selective schools.

[Miss Tick]

I haven't been through the process yet, but I wonder why they couldn't just accept what people turn in and then, if necessary, flag the crazy, non-standard ones as unreadable and send the pdf to those people. Seems like it would give a more complete picture of the homeschooler who is under consideration.

[RegGuheert]

1 hour ago, fourisenough said:

We encountered a couple of schools who wanted things submitted their way; we simply refused and just gave them what we gave everyone else. If they don’t want to look at my well-organized and professional documents for my high stats kid, too bad for them.

That's kinda my position, too.  If we, as a group, simply jump through every single hoop that every single admissions bureaucrat feels like creating, they will continue to make things worse for ALL homeschoolers.  If, instead, we push back on onerous overreaches, then we have a chance to keep this kind of stuff in check.

Good luck for your student!

1 hour ago, SusanC said:

I haven't been through the process yet, but I wonder why they couldn't just accept what people turn in and then, if necessary, flag the crazy, non-standard ones as unreadable and send the pdf to those people. Seems like it would give a more complete picture of the homeschooler who is under consideration.

Simple answer:  That's not how bureaucrats work.  A homeschooler wasted their time once and that's simply time wasting going in the WRONG direction.  Corrected.

Edited December 2, 2021 by RegGuheert
Removed comma and fixed typo.

[daijobu]

3 hours ago, bibiche said:

Why would converting the letter grades to numerical grades be “fabricating” grades?

I don't dispute @RegGuheert that this sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare.  But I think calling this grade "fabrication' is a stretch IMO.  I would call is a grade "translation", but still very annoying and time-consuming.  

I don't know if this was an option, but if the resulting PDF were unreadable I would have appended my own transcript.  Gosh I spent so much time making the most beautiful easy to read transcript.  It went through multiple multiple revisions on the advice of my student and DH.  (And editing the location of cells on a spreadsheets takes much longer than they think it does.  "Just switch these 2 boxes!"  "Sigh, that's 30 minutes of work.")

[ScoutTN]

6 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

Same here. L applied last year (and it was the first choice until pretty late in the process). They seemed very relieved that we had an umbrella school. 

This is helpful for us.

[RootAnn]

As someone who has been watching this process with much unhappiness, I wish those of us with beautiful transcripts & course descriptions would submit those & then fight for those acceptances all the way up the ladder.

In the case of the UAH fillable PDF with numerical grades, I think that is fine for any homeschooler who has not gone to all the work to pull together a transcript and write course descriptions. If I had another interested in attending (like my current junior), I would submit my materials and tell them everything they want (except grade percentages) can be found in my materials. And they can match my letter grades with the percentage equivalents using my school profile document.

If they insist I fill out their form, I'll tell them that will scratch UAH off my kid's list. And we'll see if they want my kid or not. 

I'll jump through some hoops but not stupid ones. UAH's changes to homeschool application process is now onerous & stupid if you already have good materials.

[bibiche]

I haven’t gone through the application process yet, so perhaps I am missing something…  Why is it onerous to convert from letter grades to numerical grades? Isn’t it pretty straightforward? 

[Arcadia]

8 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I haven’t gone through the application process yet, so perhaps I am missing something…  Why is it onerous to convert from letter grades to numerical grades? Isn’t it pretty straightforward? 

It depends on whether the numerical grades are the typical 1 to 5 or percentages or 1 to 9

e.g. http://www.science.smith.edu/~jorourke/Grading.html

Letter → Number Conversion
Letter Grade	Numerical Grade
A+	98.75
A	95.00
A-	91.25
B+	88.75
B	85.00
B-	81.25
C+	78.75
C	75.00
C-	71.25
D+	68.75
D	65.00
D-	61.25
E	55.00

[bibiche]

I think I was looking at this one, which seems more straightforward. I guess if you have an A+ it doesn’t look as good when it’s converted to numerical since both are 4.0, but otherwise I don’t really see the problem.

https://pages.collegeboard.org/how-to-convert-gpa-4.0-scale

Edited December 3, 2021 by bibiche

[RootAnn]

I no longer have all the % grades (if I even gave them a %) for classes taught 3 years ago. I'd be arbitrarily assigning a %. 

My question is why is a letter grade not sufficient for a homeschooler who does their own transcript but perfectly fine for one who uses an umbrella school or a public/private school student?

[lewelma]

NZ doesn't even use a percent correct system.  NZ national grades are based on Blooms taxonomy of levels of thinking. So numerical grades would have been fabrication for me.  In addition, for my homeschool courses, I never graded anything, like nothing at all. Ever. I used a mastery system. If I thought my kid mastered the content, I waved my hands in the air and gave him an A. I based my grades off of related standardized exams. So the equivalent of a 5 in AP English and a 780 on the language part of the SAT, meant he got an A for 9th, 10th, and 11th grade English. Going to the IMO, meant he got an A on all math classes. Getting the equivalent of a 5 on AP physics and chemistry, meant he got an A in all homeschool science classes including Biology. I wrote down that my grading system was based on mastery, and this is not based on a numerical score.  Not a single school questioned my mommy grades. I would be one who would push back against this kind of nonsense. 

[RegGuheert]

8 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I no longer have all the % grades (if I even gave them a %) for classes taught 3 years ago. I'd be arbitrarily assigning a %. 

My question is why is a letter grade not sufficient for a homeschooler who does their own transcript but perfectly fine for one who uses an umbrella school or a public/private school student?

Precisely.  And I seriously doubt that more than about 1% of homeschool parents actually have records of ALL their students' numerical grades all through high school.  Why should we??  Our children's transcripts only REALLY need the letter grades, so who keeps this stuff?  We certainly never needed anything like that for any of the college or scholarship applications for our six older children, THREE OF WHOM ATTENDED UAH!!

Furthermore, I will say that, for our homeschool, our transcripts have letter grades.  Our son has also applied for a National Merit scholarship with UAH as his first choice.  Does it make sense to certify letter grades for the scholarship and numerical grades for admissions?  Like nearly every other entity on the planet, NMSC accepts ONLY letter grades.

Frankly, this requirement is an insult to the homeschool community.  Are there some homeschool parents who do not have the high-school transcripts worked out for their students?  Certainly.   That will be especially true after the percent of homeschoolers doubled in a single year.  And perhaps providing such a PDF as an AID for those homeschools is a good idea.  But to essentially say that we do not trust ANY homeschool parents, including those who provide a professional transcript along with course descriptions, is similar to a typical public school approach:  teaching to the lowest common denominator.

One final point to note is that the PDF I linked to above has the grading scale included, which is:

A 90-100

B 80-89

C 70-79

D 60-69

F 0-59

This is *precisely* the same scale that we use on OUR transcripts, so the idea that we should move back to numerical scores (somehow) so that we can fit their grading scale is nonsense.  By including letter grades and signing the certification on that document, I am certifying that our son's scores are in that range.

ETA:  BTW, why does UAH think it is appropriate to force ALL homeschools to fit within this particular grading scale?  Do they only accept transcripts from schools who use this particular grading scale?  I'm pretty sure they accept WHATEVER grading scale the schools happen to use.  Given that, why aren't homeschools also allowed to use other grading scales?  (All this notwithstanding the fact that we adopted the exact same grading scale they use.)

Edited December 3, 2021 by RegGuheert
Added ETA.

[RegGuheert]

8 hours ago, lewelma said:

I wrote down that my grading system was based on mastery, and this is not based on a numerical score.

This.  The concept of training to mastery is so foreign to the public school system that they have trouble comprehending many homeschools.

[JazzyMom]

I’m so curious as to what these unreadable homeschool transcripts look like, lol.  Making a list of courses/grades doesn’t seem that difficult...

[EKS]

This sort of thing drives me crazy.  This sounds like a particularly egregious example of what I've seen throughout the college admissions process--more often with public schools than with private, but really it's everywhere.  They ask these questions that can't be answered by homeschoolers (or by my child, specifically) so we have to figure out what they're really asking or what their real motivation is for the requirement.

So in this case, I would say that the motivation--however poorly executed the result was--is to try to standardize the input they are getting from homeschoolers.  With regard to the numerical grades, what they really want to know is "what does that A mean?"  Unfortunately, numerical grades are no more illuminating than letter grades are, and in many cases, if you're assigning percentages, can be totally inappropriate.  That said, it is certainly possible to simply convert the letter grades to any numerical system, and if the student has the standardized test scores to back up their GPA, there should be no problem.

 

[teachermom2834]

It just doesn't even really make sense. UAH is a good school but it isn't as if it is super hard to get into. It's alot of hoops and so many of the kids that go there, do so because of the scholarships for high scorers. At some point, with a school that is not that selective to start with, you would think the test scores would go a long way. They are the type of school that is just checking boxes in admissions. They see the core requirements are there and the test score is there and they accept. So it is strange that UAH, of all places, has chosen to put these crazy hoops in. It isn't like it is a school with a 10% admittance rate carefully constructing a class. All those hoops just so they can check off a box and accept or deny. Do we really think they are digging into course desciptions for a kid with a 34 ACT? I don't. But they are making everyone fill out the dumb form.  

And if you have an umbrella school send a transcript it doesn't matter. You don't have to do any of that. Again, makes no sense because our umbrella school does nothing to verify anything I tell them. They are not accredited. They take whatever I enter in at face value and just make the transcript. So the fact that holds some super weight really does not make sense.

So I don't think UAH is being reasonable at all. But I also leave those discussions with the admissions reps complaining about unreadable transcripts pretty annoyed by homeschoolers that in recent years have taken us backwards in terms of being accepted. It seemed when my 2016 grad was applying that schools were making things easier for homeschoolers and dropping unfair requirements. And then just five years later we have gone backwards on that. 

Just my experience with the schools my kids applied to. 

 

[RegGuheert]

26 minutes ago, JazzyMom said:

I’m so curious as to what these unreadable homeschool transcripts look like, lol.  Making a list of courses/grades doesn’t seem that difficult...

Let me try to show you what it looks like.  I won't show the transcript, because, while it is not great, it is *nothing* like the course descriptions part.  Plus there is nothing particularly personal about the course descriptions.

Let me start with a simple capture of WE format our course descriptions for a few English courses for *other* schools (or UAH three years ago):

That is how UAH received course descriptions from our homeschool three years ago.  Now, let's look at how that information looks once put into their PDF form and then printed.  I zoomed WAY in to be able to show what is actually there, but I will tell you that I cannot read that myself without the aid of a magnifying glass:

So, yes, my printer is capable of making letters small enough that *some* of the course description fits into the tiny space provided, but not all of it.  The question is this:  What is the point of doing this?  Are we trying to learn how many Bibles can be written on the head of a pin?

[EKS]

Does this process result in a pdf that you then submit as a pdf?  If so, you could used Adobe to knit together this document with your actual course descriptions.  Say in the first line (or last line--there appear to be a lot of extra lines) that for more details, they can see the attached course descriptions.  And then put everything in the course descriptions that can't be input properly into their form(s).  They can choose not to look at the extra stuff.

[RootAnn]

We need someone who has nice materials already put together & whose kid doesn't care about getting in to make a stand for the homeschoolers in general on this. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by RootAnn
Pulled out the Call to Arms

[JazzyMom]

Yes, their form clearly does not leave enough space.  Plus, your format is better.

But I am wondering what other homeschoolers are submitting that admissions officers find unreadable.  Does anyone know what those types of transcripts are like?  I am surprised that unreadable transcripts are being submitted in such numbers as to require the creation of an extra form.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, JazzyMom said:

But I am wondering what other homeschoolers are submitting that admissions officers find unreadable.  Does anyone know what those types of transcripts are like?

I would love to know as well!  

I suspect it isn't just illegibility that's a problem, or even the main problem.  I bet it's that what's written is incoherent.  This is a huge problem even among people who should know better--like graduate students in the humanities!

If I were a college admissions person, I would assume that the quality of the supporting documents coming out of a homeschool was indicative of the education the student got in that homeschool, and I would simply reject students with terrible documentation. 

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, EKS said:

I would love to know as well!  

I suspect it isn't just illegibility that's a problem, or even the main problem.  I bet it's that what's written is incoherent.  This is a huge problem even among people who should know better--like graduate students in the humanities!

If I were a college admissions person, I would assume that the quality of the supporting documents coming out of a homeschool was indicative of the education the student got in that homeschool, and I would simply reject students with terrible documentation. 

I will say... I've dealt with some students who had not very good documentation who actually had great home education experiences with lots of quality and rigor, so I don't personally love that solution. But I do agree that's a reality. If the parents submit crazy paperwork that's confusing or messy or too thin (no information) or too thick (over-explaining every little thing can start to make a kid look bad) then I think many colleges will just reject.

[EKS]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

I will say... I've dealt with some students who had not very good documentation who actually had great home education experiences with lots of quality and rigor, so I don't personally love that solution. 

The problem is you have to go with what you can see.  And since there is no reputation attached to a homeschool the way there is with b&m schools, it's all it how it looks, how it reads, and how well what it says aligns with more objective indicators like test scores, grades in outside classes, and, to a lesser extent, outside recommendations.

Edited December 4, 2021 by EKS

[RootAnn]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

The problem is you have to go with what you can see.  And since there is no reputation attached to a homeschool the way there is with b&m schools, it's all it how it looks, how it reads, and how well what it says aligns with more objective indicators like test scores, grades in outside classes,  and, to a lesser extent, outside recommendations.

This is true except in cases where older siblings already attend the school like in @RegGuheert's case & in my case (although I seriously doubt any of my other kids will go there unless their NMF scholarships go back up).

[EKS]

39 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

This is true except in cases where older siblings already attend the school like in @RegGuheert's case & in my case (although I seriously doubt any of my other kids will go there unless their NMF scholarships go back up).

True--if they notice.

[theelfqueen]

I always wonder when they say it's unreadable whether it is truly incomprehensible...or if it's just non-traditional - schedules and credits that arent in the pattern they are seeking. 

I've also definitely seen questions here that make me think new homeschoolers sometimes think they need to include EVERYTHING in the transcript - not in the documentation package in general but IN the transcript- book lists and course descriptions and just way too much. They're so eager to prove they have really done everything that they think the standard forms are inadequate. People talking about EC "on the transcript" etc. 

[Arcadia]

On 12/2/2021 at 8:20 AM, RegGuheert said:

.  In addition, they have decided that homeschools cannot submit high-school transcripts for their students like every other school submits.  Instead, UAH has a new fillable PDF which MUST be filled out by homeschools.  So, instead of simply sending our student's transcript to them along with the course descriptions, we must spend hours struggling with this form to create something which is virtually unreadable.

Honestly, if UAH wants to ensure that the transcripts are easy to read for any applicant, just put the first page of that fillable pdf in their online application. Then you get a standardized transcript from everyone. They can just let people upload their transcripts and course description under supporting documents.

[Arcadia]

On 12/3/2021 at 5:02 PM, RootAnn said:

This is true except in cases where older siblings already attend the school like in @RegGuheert's case & in my case (although I seriously doubt any of my other kids will go there unless their NMF scholarships go back up).

To be fair, admin rarely recognizes siblings on online applications though unless there is a checkbox for “any sibling attending or have attended”. I only see checkboxes to ask if parents are alumni. 
The community college my kids are attending is already a small one but the admin staff doesn’t realize my kids are siblings (despite my name being the school administrator for all their forms) until they saw me and both my kids together in the admin office. 

[klmama]

On 12/6/2021 at 6:34 PM, theelfqueen said:

I've also definitely seen questions here that make me think new homeschoolers sometimes think they need to include EVERYTHING in the transcript - not in the documentation package in general but IN the transcript- book lists and course descriptions and just way too much. They're so eager to prove they have really done everything that they think the standard forms are inadequate. People talking about EC "on the transcript" etc. 

I've seen public school transcripts that had a list of activities included.  It doesn't seem odd to me for homeschoolers to include them.  

[Corraleno]

On 12/3/2021 at 12:22 PM, JazzyMom said:

But I am wondering what other homeschoolers are submitting that admissions officers find unreadable.  Does anyone know what those types of transcripts are like?  I am surprised that unreadable transcripts are being submitted in such numbers as to require the creation of an extra form.

On 12/3/2021 at 2:25 PM, EKS said:

I would love to know as well!  

Two examples I can think of off the top of my head:

Kid 1 was mostly unschooled or did project-based learning, and his mom was quite vocal about her refusal to jump through what she saw as ridiculous hoops, like providing a basic transcript with courses and grades. Instead she wrote a letter about what a genius he was, he follows his own path, he doesn't like wasting his time on stupid busywork, etc. Fully expected that an Ivy or other elite school would jump at the chance to have this brilliant, unique student grace their campus. Kid ended up with a pile of rejections and one acceptance to a good but not elite school. Mom blames the rejections on the kid's refusal to prep for and retake the SAT in order to get a perfect score.

Kid 2 had two strong ECs, one techy and one artsy, and the dad decided that kiddo should get academic credit for every. single. thing. he did, so there were literally a dozen or more separate transcript entries for each EC activity, all with fractional credits (like .35 credit for this activity that took X number of hours, .40 credit for this other activity that took Y hours, .15 credit for this other thing that took Z hours, etc.). And then the parent decided to really highlight those activities by grouping them all on the front page of the transcript, which was several pages long and arranged by subject. This was a kid with 5s on multiple APs, top SAT scores, and As in several upper-level college classes, but those things were buried deep within a transcript that had like 60 total credits, half of which were nonacademic activities with fractional credit values. Dad was convinced kiddo would have lots of highly-ranked options to choose from, and was shocked when he was rejected everywhere except one state school (which luckily did have a good program for him and he ended up happy there). 

And those were both smart, well-educated parents who were perfectly capable of providing the student's information in a normal, readable format, but decided that their kids were so special they deserved exceptional treatment, and adcoms should be happy to wade through garbled information to extract the relevant data. (To be clear, I'm not knocking nontraditional education — we were very nontraditional/interest-led, but I do understand the value of traditional packaging and the importance of "speaking the same language" as the people you are communicating with.)

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

 

And those were both smart, well-educated parents who were perfectly capable of providing the student's information in a normal, readable format, but decided that their kids were so special they deserved exceptional treatment, and adcoms should be happy to wade through garbled information to extract the relevant data. (To be clear, I'm not knocking nontraditional education — we were very nontraditional/interest-led, but I do understand the value of traditional packaging and the importance of "speaking the same language" as the people you are communicating with.)

 

 

I think you make a good point about understanding the framework colleges use for evaluating applications. 

Grades, courses taken, and test scores still matter a lot. (The weight of scores is in flux, but they can still send a positive signal or be required. )

A wonderful essay, outstanding activities, or strong letters of recommendation might tip the scales in favor of an applicant. They aren't going to make a selective college overlook an application that doesn't include required courses, has poor grades, or is simply confusing. 

On the other hand, for very selective colleges, grades, rigor, and scores are necessary but not sufficient. Those colleges are looking for what else the student brings.

 

Where I get frustrated with UAH is they are asking for information that isn't unusual, but requiring a submission form that doesn't allow for providing the information. The tiny course description blocks make little sense. 

It would be better if they just created a form builder or used something like SRAR.

[JazzyMom]

12 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Two examples I can think of off the top of my head:

 

Thanks for sharing!  That clears things up.  I just could not imagine what homeschoolers were sending that necessitated a specific form, but I can totally see someone doing this and can understand that adcoms would not know what to do with it.

[Roadrunner]

Is it possible to fill out the form in a minimalistic way they require and include your transcript as a second page while uploading? 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

27 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Is it possible to fill out the form in a minimalistic way they require and include your transcript as a second page while uploading? 

This is what I did for the 2020-21 application cycle. The descriptions were bare bones and then I included the documents I sent to every other college via Common App. My son was admitted, but chose to enroll elsewhere.

He really like the idea of UAH and it had been a leading contender, in part because of its location. Two things that put him off were how clunky and disorganized the portals were (application, honors app, and scholarship) and the fact that they were hacked and his data was compromised. I think he felt that a tech school should have been better. I understand that there is a wide separation between admissions and teaching, but it was a little like getting poorly spelled emails from a school that is known for its writing program.

[RootAnn]

19 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

think he felt that a tech school should have been better

I agree. I was surprised the washers & dryers in the dorms didn't have a way to monitor them via app/cell phone, for example. A group of students could have done this for a senior project.  There are lots of examples -- including how almost every semester, the server used for registering for classes crashes on the first day it opens. (It didn't this year.) This shouldn't happen twice at a place like UAH, but I don't think the admin utilizes the strengths of the student body (and professors) the way it should.

[GoodGrief3]

On 12/8/2021 at 4:37 PM, Corraleno said:

Two examples I can think of off the top of my head:

 

 

 

Excellent examples, of parents wanting to use the college apps to share their story as educators 🙂 Locally, I see people doing something similar with the public homeschooling charter schools when asked to turn in work samples. The school really just want a page of something to show a potential auditor from the state, but the creative parent wants them to sit through a half hour video of the child explaining a concept. The educational effort itself is fantastic but bureaucracy tends to need the evidence of the outcome simplified 🙂 The colleges are sorting through thousands of apps, and the people doing the sorting are not necessarily the most philosophical of people either. They are just getting the job done.

It does sound like the provided form from the school in question is poorly designed. I would be annoyed filling that thing out too, especially if it doesn't lend itself to cut and paste.

[teachermom2834]

13 hours ago, GoodGrief3 said:

 🙂 The colleges are sorting through thousands of apps, and the people doing the sorting are not necessarily the most philosophical of people either. They are just getting the job done.

 

This isn't specific to the situation at UAH but I definitely think it is important that your application makes it easy to tick off the basics by the lowliest most disinterested work study student. We found through the experience of my oldest that the first pass through on the application was often a student worker. Obviously not always. Also seems that freshman admissions is often a first job out of college position and you are often working with a new, young admissions officer. Not always, of course. 

One ds worked a summer in admissions at his college. He kept telling me that I knew more than the full time workers there about general education, college application, and financial aid issues. It was eye opening to him what it was like behind the scenes. And this is a tiny school, not somewhere dealing with 20,000 applications. 

Now, I am not justifying UAH's policy, just pointing out how little deep analysis is going on for the first screening of an application at most schools. Sewanee told us at an admissions event that the first reading is a student worker. Berry College, which prides itself on its student work program, has students doing alot of the administrative work. Now, I think Berry is a nice college and I think the student work program is really interesting. But gracious the problems ds had applying there...lots of dropped balls in admissions eventually sorted out by an actual full time employee. 

So it could be UAH is responding to having work study students perplexed by a non-standard application. That's on UAH to figure out, obviously. Just jumping off this post to mention that we decided to make sure everything was really clear on the transcipt and save the creative stuff for supporting documents, essays, scholarship applications, etc. Again, not defending UAH. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by teachermom2834

[GoodGrief3]

11 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Also seems that freshman admissions is often a first job out of college position and you are often working with a new, young admissions officer. Not always, of course. 

Yep! Targeting an app toward a young adult reader is probably wise.

[Eos]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:59 AM, RootAnn said:

how almost every semester, the server used for registering for classes crashes on the first day it opens.

This happened at WPI all four years Ds was there.  People, you literally have "Polytechnic" in your name!  Get some Polytechnicking!  Hopefully this is better now, it was the earlyish years of online everything.  

[MEmama]

3 hours ago, Eos said:

This happened at WPI all four years Ds was there.  People, you literally have "Polytechnic" in your name!  Get some Polytechnicking!  Hopefully this is better now, it was the earlyish years of online everything.  

WPI was DS’s top US choice of schools— it was a mighty tough decision to decline their offer. I’m laughing at your comment because that would have driven him *crazy*, especially from there! 🤣

[idnib]

I hope I'm allowed to bump this thread a year later, as I'm running into the same problem for DS and this PDF. It feels unfair to me that the scale they're asking me to use has no weighting, unless I explicitly ignore the instructions and add weighting, which the cells in the PDF do let me do, ie they're not locked against it. If a regular school submits a transcript, apparently they just take the weighted GPA off of it.  Did anyone get away with not filling our this form and just having their transcripts accepted?