JAWM: Why so much variation in what homeschoolers believe constitutes a credit?

[cintinative]

This is probably a JAWM. There was a post on a FB group about a co-op where people were dropping and leaving because the kids were getting three hours of homework a week. She wanted to know how to communicate better about expectations so that they could retain people.  Reasonable request, I thought.

Later the OP clarified that this is a class for high school credit, that the teacher is implementing everything and doing all grading, etc. 

The crazy thing is that most people on the thread thought that the idea of a high school class with three hours of homework was the problem. Too much homework, not reasonable, etc. "No wonder people are dropping out."

One person said that with one hour of class a week and three hours of homework, it would basically be like a college class, or AP level. HUH?

Most pushed back on the idea of the Carnegie credit (120-180 hours of work) and said that wasn't necessary anymore, you just need to demonstrate learning.

One said that "most" schools don't ever finish a textbook because they do other things (I don't disagree with this, but if they are also holding to no hours minimum, then I am confused).

Assuming most people do not have highly gifted children, I don't see how this could be broadly applied. 

Where is this thought process coming from exactly?  Is this an extension of the  "they waste a lot of time in school, so we don't need to spend as many hours" philosophy?

Edited November 30, 2021 by cintinative

[HomeAgain]

24 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Where is this thought process coming from exactly?  Is this an extension of the  "they waste a lot of time in school, so we don't need to spend as many hours" philosophy?

I think it's exactly this.  And it's infuriating and frustrating to have it become the normed attitude of homeschoolers instead of the exception.

[kbutton]

31 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Where is this thought process coming from exactly?  Is this an extension of the  "they waste a lot of time in school, so we don't need to spend as many hours" philosophy?

I think it probably is.

Are these parents using the class as a total substitution for doing that subject at home, or do they use it as a substitute (ETA: oops--supplement)?

Is it something like foreign language vs. math/science/lit? Sometimes people are pretty get 'er done about foreign language.

Is the teacher estimating that it's three hours of homework, but word on the street is that it takes most students much longer than that? I can see this being likely for at least a subset of the students. I ran into this in B&M school, not so much with homework time but with other expectations--it was clear that the teacher didn't realize just how much parents were propping up students (and this was first grade, lol!), how much of an advantage students who had parents walk them to the room had over children who walked in off of a bus, and how much information parents who had already had a student placed with this teacher already knew to mitigate the miscommunication, etc. Sometimes people forget to factor in that institutional memory component with communication, etc., or the class is geared toward students who will automatically read all the literature ahead in the summer vs. as it comes to them, and new people don't know that and get burned.

We had an informal co-op with friends (some of whom had learning challenges), and I probably gave similar amounts of homework to that to middle schoolers, though we met only once per week, so they had to do more at home to finish anything. My stuff was a supplement, but a hefty one. 

I am curious which co-op if you want to PM me. We're making high school decisions for number 2 largely in an information vacuum. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by kbutton

[Arcadia]

41 minutes ago, cintinative said:

One person said that with one hour of class a week and three hours of homework, it would basically be like a college class, or AP level. HUH?

That is less than a community college class for most subjects.

However, for three hours of homework, is it three hours worth of homework or the teens are just taking their time like my DS15 or speeding through and just getting it done like DS16. Also if the class is only an hour weekly, it is not surprising that the teacher would give more homework. 

[Roadrunner]

I think the least I have seen for high school credit hour is five classes each 50 minutes. 

[freesia]

NY requires 100 hours for a credit for high school in the homeschool law.  I require more.

[cintinative]

@kbutton, I am not sure of the co-op (it's a national group on FB that I am in). It could literally be anywhere in the U.S.

It seems like this teacher/leader thinks that the families that have dropped came out of more unstructured learning environments at home (maybe unschooling? project based?). Anyway, she wasn't terribly specific. I think the goal of her post was more: How can I let these people know what they are getting into so they don't sign up and then drop?  And, how do I help the kids get adjusted to the workload if they haven't had this type of workload before?   I was just kind of shocked at all the pushback for an outsourced class that is completely run by a teacher.  

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

@kbutton, I am not sure of the co-op (it's a national group on FB that I am in). It could literally be anywhere in the U.S.

It seems like this teacher/leader thinks that the families that have dropped came out of more unstructured learning environments at home (maybe unschooling? project based?). Anyway, she wasn't terribly specific. I think the goal of her post was more: How can I let these people know what they are getting into so they don't sign up and then drop?  And, how do I help the kids get adjusted to the workload if they haven't had this type of workload before?   I was just kind of shocked at all the pushback for an outsourced class that is completely run by a teacher.  

I think I read this as a FB for the co-op for some reason.

Maybe publishing a typical week of homework assignments? I wonder if the people on the FB page (vs. in the homeschool co-op) were reading it as three hours a day? I have heard of loads like that with some co-ops. 

[cintinative]

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

I think I read this as a FB for the co-op for some reason.

Maybe publishing a typical week of homework assignments? I wonder if the people on the FB page (vs. in the homeschool co-op) were reading it as three hours a day? I have heard of loads like that with some co-ops. 

This is a group for co-op leaders (I used to be one) across the nation.

I think that they understood her to mean three hours in one week. Many of them felt that was too much. Again, sigh.  I don't understand. I really hope they misunderstood and thought she was running an enrichment class only with the parents leading. 

 

[Garga]

4 hours a week for a class (1 hour instruction at co-op, 3 hours at home), works out to 48 minutes of work per day in a 5-day week.

It’s a little skimpy, but depending on the class, could be ok. I would prefer a full 60 minutes per day for most classes.

If it’s an elective, then 4 hours a week is perfect. If it’s a core class, 5 or more is better.

 

I have no idea who the people are who think that’s too much. And that one person is completely goofy thinking that 4 hours a week is an AP or college level class!  HAHAHAHA! What a jokester she was. 😕

 

 

[Farrar]

You can either go by time or mastery. You can't really go by neither.

I think one thing that so many are missing these days is rigor of curriculum. It's becoming less and less important in the school and homeschool world - at least at certain edges. I mean, with the rise of Power (bleeping) Homeschool and other such approaches that are being used by both school systems (credit recovery) and homeschoolers, there's a lot of students doing a full course in 50 hours or less. The quality reflects that. At the same time, colleges are looking more and more at the level of rigor that a course requires. 

[ScoutTN]

Because some homeschoolers are not, in fact, actually educating their children. 
 

[Miss Tick]

57 minutes ago, Farrar said:

school systems (credit recovery) ... , there's a lot of students doing a full course in 50 hours or less.

I was surprised to run in to this in casual conversation about the local "We're the best high school in the state" high school. I mean homeschoolers come in all sizes, but the local school is so proud of their rigor. 🤷

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

At the same time, colleges are looking more and more at the level of rigor that a course requires. 

In your experience, what does this look like for homeschoolers? My FL relatives are always asking about end of course exams (they are required in that state).  We don't have those as homeschoolers (but I think OH is implementing something like that for public school).  Do they just look at course descriptions? Or are they only looking at APs  (which have a specific scope and sequence)?

[Arcadia]

15 minutes ago, SusanC said:

I was surprised to run in to this in casual conversation about the local "We're the best high school in the state" high school. I mean homeschoolers come in all sizes, but the local school is so proud of their rigor. 🤷

Some schools do marked courses as CR on their transcripts though. A friend’s child in public school needed CR courses to satisfy minimum requirements for high school diploma.

[Farrar]

33 minutes ago, cintinative said:

In your experience, what does this look like for homeschoolers? My FL relatives are always asking about end of course exams (they are required in that state).  We don't have those as homeschoolers (but I think OH is implementing something like that for public school).  Do they just look at course descriptions? Or are they only looking at APs  (which have a specific scope and sequence)?

Yes, course descriptions. But also number of courses, AP designation, whether it's from a few "known" providers, whether it's dual enrollment... And whether it's "validated" by a few things - like by some AP scores or a good SAT score. Don't let that make you think it has to be everything, but it can be part of a greater puzzle. 

Here's where it falls down... I think homeschool students who do online courses without textbooks or books just aren't going to do very well in the rigor game, even if those courses are AP, even if they're from an accredited provider, like FLVS or something. I mean, if it's a math course and the provider made the materials, maybe. But I've seen AP English courses from online accredited providers that don't have any books attached to the description. I don't care if it's accredited, I don't think that's going to show well.

I don't think colleges care a whit about end of course exams. Maybe the SUNY schools care about the Regents? Since they're so hard for homeschoolers outside of NY to deal with, I honestly have almost zero experience with the SUNY schools. But even in FL, where there are EOC exams, it's all about the SAT score at the publics. And if a FL kid applied to, say, University of Miami, which is a pretty competitive, high ranking private school in FL, they don't care about those EOC exams either.

But keep in mind that what colleges want has diverged to some extent. Some schools (like those FL publics) are just about the SAT score. They don't care that much about rigor of coursework. They'd rather see numbers and data. Credits. GPA. SAT. But at privates and some publics, it's moving the other way.

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, SusanC said:

I was surprised to run in to this in casual conversation about the local "We're the best high school in the state" high school. I mean homeschoolers come in all sizes, but the local school is so proud of their rigor. 🤷

I have a kid in one of those schools. 🤣 He is taking AP Human Geo. Never opened a textbook but somehow has an A. Grades are a joke. You almost have to be completely asleep not to make an A. In fact half the kids at our high school make A’s but 3/4 score 3 and below on actual exams. In our experience kids who got into better known public universities in our state had 4s and 5s on AP exams. GPA alone got them into UCs but not the top two of UCs. So scores matter for some. 

Meanwhile my other kid does a ton more work in our home brew courses that aren’t AP. I am not sure any of that will carry any weight. As we get closer to the senior year, panic is setting in. 

[cintinative]

7 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Meanwhile my other kid does a ton more work in our home brew courses that aren’t AP. I am not sure any of that will carry any weight. As we get closer to the senior year, panic is setting in. 

I can relate to this. I feel like some of our homebrew courses are really solid, but I can only hope they read the course descriptions. 

Also my niece and nephew both took AP Human Geography and it seemed like their (public teacher's) position was "I'm going to slowly kill you with busy work and then be disappointed when none of you score a 4 or 5 on the exam."  I seriously have never heard of such an inordinate amount of busy work.  Write down all the vocabulary words and their definitions.  Which definitions? You have to figure that out and not from our textbook (because there isn't one, so you'll have to try to find it online). And if you choose the wrong definition (not the precise wording), I will mark it wrong.  It's no wonder every kid in that school hates the course.  

[Clemsondana]

I think that some families, having enjoyed the 'done by lunchtime' model for elementary school, struggle to transition to working longer hours as the kids get older.  I know that we have some lessons, practices, and homeschool activities that meet during the day and take up time during the 'traditional school hours'.  My older, in particular, works on weekends or evenings to get the work done and we are working on that mentality with younger (who isn't in high school yet).  I think that some families never make that jump.  They think that they couldn't do a full day of school on Tuesday because of 'class' and they couldn't do it on Friday because of 'activity' so the teachers should assign less work, when in reality they need to work Tuesday night or Saturday or get up earlier or work in the summer or have fewer activities if they want to get a proper education.  

Every family's view of 'a proper education' is different - my own kids will have different levels of academic challenge due to their different goals, not due to any particular difference in ability, and some families choose to commit large amounts of time to work experience or music practice to support their kid's career goals.  But, most people teaching a class have some idea of what content should be covered in a high school class and they can't justify shortchanging the kids who need a solid or rigorous class to meet their own goals.  I wonder if, in homeschool groups and public schools, too, this could be helped by families accepting that it's OK to earn a C..not for everybody, but rather than making the work easier, it's OK for an A to be challenging to earn and it's OK for a student to put in less effort and earn a C because they are spending their time elsewhere.  

[Roadrunner]

24 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I can relate to this. I feel like some of our homebrew courses are really solid, but I can only hope they read the course descriptions. 

Also my niece and nephew both took AP Human Geography and it seemed like their (public teacher's) position was "I'm going to slowly kill you with busy work and then be disappointed when none of you score a 4 or 5 on the exam."  I seriously have never heard of such an inordinate amount of busy work.  Write down all the vocabulary words and their definitions.  Which definitions? You have to figure that out and not from our textbook (because there isn't one, so you'll have to try to find it online). And if you choose the wrong definition (not the precise wording), I will mark it wrong.  It's no wonder every kid in that school hates the course.  

We have a textbook. 😋 It is written as one definition followed by another definition and so forth. The course takes simplest of concepts and attaches fancy definitions to them. I can’t get my kid to read it. 
There has got to be a better textbook somewhere or video lectures or something. Yes, hate is just the word my kid would use to describe it. I wish he had taken World History instead. 
 

[EKS]

There is also huge (huge!) variation in what constitutes a credit both within and among schools.

[RootAnn]

In addition to what others have pointed out, there is a hige difference in expectations, rigor, and output in public school classrooms. Take an English class. One area might have kids reading two books all year long & oh, say 4 papers. Another school might require 10+ books/plays/etc plus a 3-4 page paper due every other week. Everything in between. Something more, something less. Huge variation.

 

My own kid took an Honors English course from an accredited online provider that didn't read any actual books, just short stories. I can't remember how many papers they wrote, but it was less than 4 all year. It was what my kid needed & was great for her, but it wasn't Honors!! (It was rebranded the next school year.)

[Clemsondana]

8 hours ago, RootAnn said:

In addition to what others have pointed out, there is a hige difference in expectations, rigor, and output in public school classrooms. Take an English class. One area might have kids reading two books all year long & oh, say 4 papers. Another school might require 10+ books/plays/etc plus a 3-4 page paper due every other week. Everything in between. Something more, something less. Huge variation.

 

My own kid took an Honors English course from an accredited online provider that didn't read any actual books, just short stories. I can't remember how many papers they wrote, but it was less than 4 all year. It was what my kid needed & was great for her, but it wasn't Honors!! (It was rebranded the next school year.)

This is so true, especially with many high schools switching to block schedules such that students take 4 classes at a time and they are done in a semester.  Our co-op English class read a book a month (with a collection of short stories for the last month) so read and discussed 7 books plus the stories.  The equivalent public school class read 2 books.  My kid plays on a public school sports team and at the first practice was reading the same book as their teammates, but when they talked about class later in the year I think both were surprised by what the other was doing.  

[teachermom2834]

I do know that it is not just homeschoolers. We are going to send our dd out to brick and mortar school next year and we have been looking at the local public school, a private Catholic school, and then comparing them both to a good public school we were familiar with from where we lived for 15 years prior to where we are now. 
 

So spending a lot of time looking at whatever info is available online and comparing. Honors English 9 here reads The Pearl, Romeo and Juliet, and excerpts from the Odyssey. That’s it. Our local homeschool co-op, which was not particularly rigorous, read 6-7 novels. Now, I know there can be other things studied in class but you run into homeschool co-op parents who balk at 6 novels because they had a kid in honors at the public school that read half that much. So, some of it even goes back to comparing to public school. Many of our homeschool parents have had experience as parents or teachers in public school and that is the standard they are going by. Also, the public high school kids we know rarely have homework. They have study halls and time to do homework in class and only take 2 academic classes a semester. (Block scheduling with 2 core classes, 1 career track class and an elective or study hall). So homeschool parents who have had kids go through public high school or have peers with kids in high school who do not have homework in honors classes can’t understand why a homeschool co-op would have so much homework.

It stinks. Kids aren’t prepared for alot of what is out there in the big wide world. 

[cintinative]

@teachermom2834  Wow, I don't think it is like that here, but I can totally see how it would vary by school district.   I wish I could look up the book lists here but they don't put them online. 

[Kassia]

16 hours ago, EKS said:

There is also huge (huge!) variation in what constitutes a credit both within and among schools.

Absolutely.  My three oldest all went to ps and some of their honors classes (and even AP classes) were absolute jokes.  But they got As that went on their transcripts and those As/honors designations are more acceptable to colleges than a homeschooler's transcript even if the homeschool class taught so much more.  It's very unfair and frustrating.  

[Farrar]

One of the differences I see though is that even when a public school class does fewer books or less information, there's little doubt (at least, pre-Covid or assuming it wasn't credit recovery) that the course didn't at least meet the standard for time simply because there's a minimum amount of classroom time. Yes, I know, at some schools, this turns into goof off time, teacher talk, etc. But even with that into account, I'd argue that they are mostly using it for instruction at the majority of schools. In that sense, I'd rank those classes far and away above the homeschoolers who don't go by hours and don't do much content and still somehow call it mastered. Or the computer instruction that can take just a handful of hours to get though - much of it just tuning out recorded lecture.

[maize]

18 hours ago, Farrar said:

Yes, course descriptions. But also number of courses, AP designation, whether it's from a few "known" providers, whether it's dual enrollment... And whether it's "validated" by a few things - like by some AP scores or a good SAT score. Don't let that make you think it has to be everything, but it can be part of a greater puzzle. 

Here's where it falls down... I think homeschool students who do online courses without textbooks or books just aren't going to do very well in the rigor game, even if those courses are AP, even if they're from an accredited provider, like FLVS or something. I mean, if it's a math course and the provider made the materials, maybe. But I've seen AP English courses from online accredited providers that don't have any books attached to the description. I don't care if it's accredited, I don't think that's going to show well.

I don't think colleges care a whit about end of course exams. Maybe the SUNY schools care about the Regents? Since they're so hard for homeschoolers outside of NY to deal with, I honestly have almost zero experience with the SUNY schools. But even in FL, where there are EOC exams, it's all about the SAT score at the publics. And if a FL kid applied to, say, University of Miami, which is a pretty competitive, high ranking private school in FL, they don't care about those EOC exams either.

But keep in mind that what colleges want has diverged to some extent. Some schools (like those FL publics) are just about the SAT score. They don't care that much about rigor of coursework. They'd rather see numbers and data. Credits. GPA. SAT. But at privates and some publics, it's moving the other way.

I think hard numbers like test scores just make the work of sorting through tens of thousands of applications easier.

I imagine the most of the more selective smaller schools (including most of the private elites) do the same to winnow down the pile before looking more closely at just a fraction to make their admissions decisions.

[Lori D.]

Agreeing with previous posters, esp. noting that it's not just homeschoolers who have a wide variance in what makes a credit, but it's public, private, and charter high schools as well.

The scary part is: no matter where a student did high school, when it comes to reading & writing (whether for English or for History or other required Humanities course), if there were extremely low bars to clear for credits in high school, the student is really going to struggle that first year in college. I wouldn't be surprised if that's one reason for a high drop out rate in college after the first 1-2 semesters -- a volume and rigor of work that students just weren't prepared for and hadn't had the opportunity in high school to "exercise" those academic muscles to be able to handle that load in college.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lori D.

[Roadrunner]

46 minutes ago, Farrar said:

One of the differences I see though is that even when a public school class does fewer books or less information, there's little doubt (at least, pre-Covid or assuming it wasn't credit recovery) that the course didn't at least meet the standard for time simply because there's a minimum amount of classroom time. Yes, I know, at some schools, this turns into goof off time, teacher talk, etc. But even with that into account, I'd argue that they are mostly using it for instruction at the majority of schools. In that sense, I'd rank those classes far and away above the homeschoolers who don't go by hours and don't do much content and still somehow call it mastered. Or the computer instruction that can take just a handful of hours to get though - much of it just tuning out recorded lecture.

Yep. That's why I was saying the minimum is 5x a week 50 minutes each. Because our PS has plenty of elective classes with zero homework. Some are discussion only. And some are honors  graded on a 5.0 scale. 😕

 

But yes, in a given school you will have classes that are overwhelmingly difficult (AP Chem is close to 1.5 daily homework daily in addition to classroom hours in our school) and those that have no work attached to them and each will be just a credit.                   

[Farrar]

52 minutes ago, maize said:

I think hard numbers like test scores just make the work of sorting through tens of thousands of applications easier.

I imagine the most of the more selective smaller schools (including most of the private elites) do the same to winnow down the pile before looking more closely at just a fraction to make their admissions decisions.

They do. But a larger and larger number of schools are choosing not to go that route.

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

They do. But a larger and larger number of schools are choosing not to go that route.

Which is just kicking that problem can down the road.

When all that colleges look at is GPA, high schools (and homeschoolers) will be (and already are) churning out students with inflated grades for low volume/rigor of work. That's going to mean colleges get that flood of students they want to boost their income, but then colleges have to decide if they will fail those students who weren't prepared by high school to do that level of college work... or, will they, too, start lowering the bar of volume/rigor to keep enrollment--and the college's inflow of cash--up...

ETA -- PS
That makes me sound like I'm gung-ho for testing, when I'm not. Some testing yes, is useful. But testing is a mixed bag of helps and problems all on its own, and is NOT a good measure for students who don't test well; it's also not accurate for students who are skilled at gaming the test but may not really have the prep to do as well at college as test scores indicate...

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lori D.

[Miss Tick]

22 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

colleges have to decide if they will fail those students who weren't prepared by high school to do that level of college work... or, colleges will also have to start lowering the bar of volume/rigor to keep enrollment (and the college's inflow of cash) up...

At least in the public realm it isn't generally that "colleges decide" As your parentheses indicate, colleges are a business and are in it for the money. Public colleges are generally TOLD by higher ups, the boards of directors, or the governor's office that they need to keep accepting students, and further, they need to get them graduated in 4 years. This does not make for the most robust form of higher education! I think the long-term negative impact on education of these lowered standards is already being felt but not recognized by the US.

Edited December 2, 2021 by SusanC

[Roadrunner]

8 minutes ago, SusanC said:

At least in the public realm it isn't generally that "colleges decide" As your parentheses indicate, colleges are a business and are in it for the money. Public colleges are generally TOLD by higher ups, the boards of directors, or the governor's office that they need to keep accepting students, and further, they need to get them graduated in 4 years. This does not make for the most robust form of higher education! I think they long-term negative impact on education of these lowered standards is already being felt but not recognized by the US.

Agreed.

That’s the reason college is a new high school now. Employers don’t trust high school diplomas. Graduate school is a new college.

Problem of all that is the enormous cost to parents and to state to do what could have been done so much more efficiently. It’s not as if most kids want 16 year education instead of 12. 
sorry. Just ranting. 😞 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Roadrunner

[ScoutTN]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

@teachermom2834  Wow, I don't think it is like that here, but I can totally see how it would vary by school district.   I wish I could look up the book lists here but they don't put them online. 

I have had to work hard to get booklists from ps high schools here. Private schools are happy to share, ime.

[Farrar]

35 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Which is just kicking that problem can down the road.

When all that colleges look at is GPA, high schools (and homeschoolers) will be (and already are) churning out students with inflated grades for low volume/rigor of work. That's going to mean colleges get that flood of students they want to boost their income, but then colleges have to decide if they will fail those students who weren't prepared by high school to do that level of college work... or, will they, too, start lowering the bar of volume/rigor to keep enrollment--and the college's inflow of cash--up...

ETA -- PS
That makes me sound like I'm gung-ho for testing, when I'm not. Some testing yes, is useful. But testing is a mixed bag of helps and problems all on its own, and is NOT a good measure for students who don't test well; it's also not accurate for students who are skilled at gaming the test but may not really have the prep to do as well at college as test scores indicate...

We'll just have to disagree then. For one thing, you're implying that the students who benefit most from this shift are rich and that the purpose of removing testing is to let in underachieving rich kids. Not what the data is suggesting so far. I mean, don't worry everyone, rich kids still have a big edge! But there's no stronger proxy for wealth than the SAT, so adding lots of context and nuance is helping kids who don't fit that profile, not hurting them, especially at top schools. Also, the implication is that by requiring more essays, more rigor of coursework, more varied experiences on their resumes, that students are less prepared for college than if they can just get some numbers. I don't think that's true. I think a kid who can write a variety of essays, take courses where they have to master difficult content and read lots of real books, and who go out and do interesting projects, work, volunteer, etc. are better prepared than kids who may or may not have done those things but get a single good score.

I know that those views aren't popular here, but whatever. There are still many schools that greatly value SAT above all else. Just send your kids to those.

[Farrar]

Also, the absolute irony of this on this board just appalls me. This is a thread to complain about the utter lack of rigor of curriculum that some homeschool families (and then some public schools) require of students and to bemoan that our kids did get some rigor and we're proud of that and that we want that to matter.

And then I come in and say, hey, guess what, colleges care a lot more about rigor of curriculum than they used to - that's for school students and homeschoolers. And that's part of the great opening up that's happening where more colleges are interested in de-emphasizing testing and looking at a wider variety of metrics, including rigor of curriculum, as a core part of the admissions process.

And immediately I'm told how BAD that is. Make up your minds, folks. You want a credit to mean something or does it not really matter? You want colleges to care about the fact that your kid read 20 books for English or read all of The Faerie Queen and Pilgrim's Progress instead of just The Hunger Games? You want colleges to notice that your kid mastered solving difficult equations in physics and did lots of lab work or do you actually just want them to get in based on an SAT score and nothing else? Because you can't have it both ways. Either you want that stuff to matter, in which case, other things will have to matter at least a little bit less. Or you don't want them to matter, in which case, stop bemoaning that not everyone does rigor.

[cintinative]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

And immediately I'm told how BAD that is. Make up your minds, folks. You want a credit to mean something or does it not really matter? You want colleges to care about the fact that your kid read 20 books for English or read all of The Faerie Queen and Pilgrim's Progress instead of just The Hunger Games? You want colleges to notice that your kid mastered solving difficult equations in physics and did lots of lab work or do you actually just want them to get in based on an SAT score and nothing else? Because you can't have it both ways. Either you want that stuff to matter, in which case, other things will have to matter at least a little bit less. Or you don't want them to matter, in which case, stop bemoaning that not everyone does rigor.

Farrar, I am not saying what you said is not in this thread because I will confess to having only skimmed some responses, so I can only speak for myself.   I really and truly hope they do look at my book lists and they do consider the rigor of my kids' stuff and I do want it to matter. I guess sometimes I feel like we are such little fish in the pond and I wonder if anyone will bother to scroll through my course descriptions. I really and truly hope they do! I have spent a lot of time on them, and a crazy amount of time planning and executing their coursework.  

Anyway, I'm sorry that you feel there is push back on that.   =(

Edited December 2, 2021 by cintinative
typo

[AEC]

21 hours ago, cintinative said:

I can relate to this. I feel like some of our homebrew courses are really solid, but I can only hope they read the course descriptions. 

Also my niece and nephew both took AP Human Geography and it seemed like their (public teacher's) position was "I'm going to slowly kill you with busy work and then be disappointed when none of you score a 4 or 5 on the exam."  I seriously have never heard of such an inordinate amount of busy work. 

Some of this might be class specific. AP HumanGeo is widely considered one of the easiest AP courses. The concepts required are trivial and the analysis they're looking for is pretty superficial. It is, in fact, mostly a vocabulary course. If you know the definitions and have a reasonable grasp of a handful of stats/stories for 2-3 representative countries, you'll do fine on the exam.

we self-studied this w/ DS19 when he was a freshman. I think we had a pretty thorough course, including a broad set of primary sources, an actual text book, and decent amounts of writing. In the end, though, the thing that got him a 5 was a week with the Barrons book and a stack of flash cards.

 

 

 

 

[Roadrunner]

14 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Also, the absolute irony of this on this board just appalls me. This is a thread to complain about the utter lack of rigor of curriculum that some homeschool families (and then some public schools) require of students and to bemoan that our kids did get some rigor and we're proud of that and that we want that to matter.

And then I come in and say, hey, guess what, colleges care a lot more about rigor of curriculum than they used to - that's for school students and homeschoolers. And that's part of the great opening up that's happening where more colleges are interested in de-emphasizing testing and looking at a wider variety of metrics, including rigor of curriculum, as a core part of the admissions process.

And immediately I'm told how BAD that is. Make up your minds, folks. You want a credit to mean something or does it not really matter? You want colleges to care about the fact that your kid read 20 books for English or read all of The Faerie Queen and Pilgrim's Progress instead of just The Hunger Games? You want colleges to notice that your kid mastered solving difficult equations in physics and did lots of lab work or do you actually just want them to get in based on an SAT score and nothing else? Because you can't have it both ways. Either you want that stuff to matter, in which case, other things will have to matter at least a little bit less. Or you don't want them to matter, in which case, stop bemoaning that not everyone does rigor.

Colleges don’t value rigor of courses done at home without some validation and that validation is often a standardized test (AP or SAT).

This isn’t just my observation but directly out of people who have worked in actual admissions offices in somewhat selective schools. Some extremely selective schools, like Caltech, completely disregard all course grades given by parents. So yes, maybe my kid’s shitty AP course in PS looks so much more impressive than his brother’s hard work on what we do at home. It stinks. But please don’t keep telling parents that grades they assign are worth just as much as grades assigned in PS. They might be for some colleges, but not in competitive ones, at least not without test validation. Of course in some cases - art/music supplements, or national recognition on competition could make it all mute. 

And I agree, rigor of the coursework should matter. That’s a good thing. But it’s impossible to measure. Fancy titles on classes and course descriptions don’t necessarily imply actual work was of any quality. I see that in homeschool community sadly.  
Without some standardization, we keep comparing apples to oranges, and sadly homeschoolers are at a disadvantage. 

I won’t go into SAT. We have beat that horse many times here so we just agree to disagree.

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

That’s the reason college is a new high school now. Employers don’t trust high school diplomas. Graduate school is a new college.

Problem of all that is the enormous cost to parents and to state to do what could have been done so much more efficiently. It’s not as if most kids want 16 year education instead of 12. 
sorry. Just ranting. 😞 

I'll continue the rant.  

Informally many employers use technical interviews to screen their applicants.  You can even buy prep books to prepare for technical interviews so you can get a high score.  If college grades and test scores are meaningless, this is finally where achievement matters.  

I've heard anecdotally that the people who produce the ACT are planning to to move into employment exams for just this opportunity for growth.  

[Bootsie]

I think that this type of thinking has been creeping into all areas of education.  There are some universities who will give a significant amount of credit toward a degree for "life experiences".  Unfortunately, I think that the credit for "mastery" is not really measuring mastering something; it is simply documenting the ability to get a certain percentage on a standardized exam with fairly predictable questions.  Repeating a math problem, for example, is seen as busy work and a waste of time rather than building proficiency (and mastery).  

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Lori D. said:

The scary part is: no matter where a student did high school, when it comes to reading & writing (whether for English or for History or other required Humanities course), if there were extremely low bars to clear for credits in high school, the student is really going to struggle that first year in college.

The community colleges highly encourage dual enrollment kids and college kids weak in English to complete their general education requirements for English there. The class sizes are smaller and help is more available. 

12 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 

Informally many employers use technical interviews to screen their applicants.  You can even buy prep books to prepare for technical interviews so you can get a high score.  

Now it is hand on interviews even if its Zoom based. Management are well aware that not only are there prep books, stackexchange, reddit, and blogs have posted past interview questions and how to go about answering. 
I have had hands on interview and I don’t mind those. If I don’t like the hands on test even if I could do the job, saves me the time going for a second interview. 

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

... I think a kid who can write a variety of essays, take courses where they have to master difficult content and read lots of real books, and who go out and do interesting projects, work, volunteer, etc. are better prepared than kids who may or may not have done those things but get a single good score...

I guess we do disagree if you are thinking I'm advocating for tests. (I think you missed my ETA in that previous post. 😉 )

The ONLY reason I think there is a *possible* benefit to tests, is to verify GPA as a way to help prevent  grade inflation. Tests as the sole determining factor -- NO, as tests can be gamed, and favor those with $$ to pay for test prep. Tests with GPA... eh, sort-of works for some students, but it's not really a good method for seeing the full story.

What I straight up mean, no implying about it 😉 is that rather than tests or cumulative GPA -- I think a more accurate view of students would come from in-depth course descriptions + portfolios or way of showing projects + individual in-depth interviews. A combo of those elements allows a student to shine and show the *full range* of who a student is, and show their abilities in depth. That method would allow colleges to best see if that student is a good fit for their college or not. 

And NO, I don't think a boatload of APs and 10 hours of school work a day is needed or at all healthy for most students. I am probably much closer in perspective to your description above then you may realize. We did NOT do ANY APs. I did not jam rigor down DSs' throats, but worked hard for a schedule of *balance* -- to give them lots of time for a wide variety of extracurriculars and activities exactly so they could explore, develop real life skills and interests, try things out to find out what they wanted to do with their lives. Lots of "down" time for mental health and to be able to pursue personal hobbies. Testing was only 1 test each of ACT and SAT (since they might have done better on one than the other) because at that time (10 years ago) test score was required for the local university -- so just keeping future doors open. I would have been fine if both had gone no-college/blue-collar route. One has gone that route, and it's perfect for him. Both DSs are succeeding in their fields, and in life, and as a human beings. 

My real point is that our country has a very broken educational system across the board (elementary through high school through college). Neither going test-required/test-optional, nor GPA-only/GPA-with test is going to fix that. Our country's educational system is broken at a much more foundational level, and surface level policies about college admissions is not going to fix the fact that tons of students are coming out of high school who can't read, write, or do basic real-life math. Students have no ideas of how basic scientific principles work, or why our culture and others around the world developed to this point (humanities: history, sociology, economics, philosophy, religion etc.) -- which in turn, help better equips us for seeing how to move forward from here.

I don't see how changing from a test-required to no-test-required is going to solve the root problems in our educational system. JMO.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

4 hours ago, cintinative said:

Farrar, I am not saying what you said is not in this thread because I will confess to having only skimmed some responses, so I can only speak for myself.   I really and truly hope they do look at my book lists and they do consider the rigor of my kids' stuff and I do want it to matter. I guess sometimes I feel like we are such little fish in the pond and I wonder if anyone will bothter to scroll through my course descriptions. I really and truly hope they do! I have spent a lot of time on them, and a crazy amount of time planning and executing their coursework.  

Anyway, I'm sorry that you feel there is push back on that.   =(

Agreeing. I was not attacking @Farrar but stating what I see as another problem in the system of college admissions when the complete picture of the student is NOT looked at -- when a student is reduced to just a test score... or a GPA number.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

Look, colleges can't fix the hot mess that is secondary ed in America. But they're prioritizing more rigor as a criteria for admission. And yes, your home grown transcript with just a bit of validation is part of that. There's no... kicking anything down the road. Colleges aren't the ones who need to fix this. They are doing their part by saying, hey, rigor matters. That should have a trickle down effect on what secondary schools actually teach and do. That's the only can they can kick.

They are literally trying to give students the more contextualized, in depth read that everyone here seems to want (at most schools... more so than before). And yet people are incredibly threatened by it. If you want them to do that, they have to inevitably look at tests at least somewhat less. If you decide you're going to add more criteria (like rigor) then you have to decide to consider something at least a little bit less. Something has to give at least somewhat.

From a practical perspective, don't do the minimum really well and get a test score and think that's enough for competitive colleges anymore. I've seen a lot of homeschool families try that in recent years and it's not what colleges want. They want your interesting kids with rigorous, crazy in depth work. And sure, a test or two or some dual enrollment or something to show they can get outside validation. But it doesn't need to be everything. Because again, it's the same for students. They can't do everything either.

 

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

The community colleges highly encourage dual enrollment kids and college kids weak in English to complete their general education requirements for English there. The class sizes are smaller and help is more available. 

Now it is hand on interviews even if its Zoom based. Management are well aware that not only are there prep books, stackexchange, reddit, and blogs have posted past interview questions and how to go about answering. 
I have had hands on interview and I don’t mind those. If I don’t like the hands on test even if I could do the job, saves me the time going for a second interview. 

I’ve designed some of those hands on interviews. I’ve literally had people walk right out after seeing what they were asked to do (fairly simple excel formulas/formatting tasks).

[Dmmetler]

I teach piano, and regularly get homeschooled teens who need a fine arts elective or another extracurricular. When I first talk to them and their parent, before they start, I ask if it's for credit or as an EC. If it's for credit, I then ask how long they want to take to get it, and explain the work it is likely to take. Unless they're a senior who needs a credit quickly, I usually suggest doing it over 2 years so it's less time consuming and can be more flexible.  I supply a detailed course description, graded work samples, and grades for those kids. If it's an EC, it's a lot more flexible, but again, I provide documentation of performance experiences and time spent, because some scholarships want that. (I do this for ALL my high school students, including PS ones, just in case they need it). 

 

I don't know how many parents actually use what I provide, but at least I've been up front about what a high school class actually requires. 

 

 

[Arcadia]

5 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

. If it's an EC, it's a lot more flexible, but again, I provide documentation of performance experiences and time spent, because some scholarships want that. (I do this for ALL my high school students, including PS ones, just in case they need it). 

The UC app has a question on ECAs for applicants. Pretty sure many college app has that question. So your documentation does come in helpful as a weaker writer could probably paraphrase or bulletpoint what you wrote instead of starting from scratch.

[Frances]

On 12/2/2021 at 3:01 AM, Clemsondana said:

This is so true, especially with many high schools switching to block schedules such that students take 4 classes at a time and they are done in a semester.  Our co-op English class read a book a month (with a collection of short stories for the last month) so read and discussed 7 books plus the stories.  The equivalent public school class read 2 books.  My kid plays on a public school sports team and at the first practice was reading the same book as their teammates, but when they talked about class later in the year I think both were surprised by what the other was doing.  

And it’s the same for colleges. My son took classes at the local LAC for the last two years of high school. They were on a semester system and most students took four courses per semester. His university was on quarters and he said that virtually every quarter course he took over four years at the university covered more material in more depth than any of his college classes taken during high school at the LAC. Yet all of his university quarter classes were worth less credit than the LAC semester classes. His experience was definitely not unique.