The Vaccine Thread

[mommyoffive]

F.D.A. Grants Full Approval to Pfizer-BioNTech Covid Vaccine (msn.com)

[mommyoffive]

Covid-19 live updates: Third Pfizer dose significantly lowers risk of infection in seniors, Israeli data shows (msn.com)

[mommyoffive]

A Hospital Finds an Unlikely Group Opposing Vaccination: Its Workers (msn.com)

[mommyoffive]

The Cost Of Being Unvaccinated Just Went Up — Most Insurers Are Passing Costs Back To Patients As Covid Hospitalizations Soar (forbes.com)

[mommyoffive]

American Academy of Pediatrics Cautions Against Off-Label Use of COVID-19 Vaccines in Children Under 12 (aap.org)

[SoCal_Bear]

I still can't understand why it is so difficult for people to understand that immunity can wane with a vaccination when this happens every year with the flu vaccine. I always time my flu shot no earlier than late October/early November for maximum effectiveness to coincide with peak flu season. 

And why people can't grasp that a virus mutates and has new strains. Again, we already know this to be true from the flu. 

Just venting my thoughts here.

[Syllieann]

2 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

American Academy of Pediatrics Cautions Against Off-Label Use of COVID-19 Vaccines in Children Under 12 (aap.org)

This sounds like CYA against peds just going and vaxing all the under-12s.  I would think they would still use it off label for high risk, medically fragile kids.  It's not like we're clueless about dosing.

[Faith-manor]

54 minutes ago, calbear said:

I still can't understand why it is so difficult for people to understand that immunity can wane with a vaccination when this happens every year with the flu vaccine. I always time my flu shot no earlier than late October/early November for maximum effectiveness to coincide with peak flu season. 

And why people can't grasp that a virus mutates and has new strains. Again, we already know this to be true from the flu. 

Just venting my thoughts here.

Yes. Some nutters are saying around here that needing a booster is proof the vaccines are garbage. (Yes, they used the word garbage on social media.)

Sure. Same idiots both work for a construction crew and have to keep their tetanus vaxes up to date or risk being fired. So every 8 years....

Exactly how ignorant are they?

 

[kbutton]

5 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

A Hospital Finds an Unlikely Group Opposing Vaccination: Its Workers (msn.com)

Quote

Other workers said that they were considering moving out of state, perhaps to Florida, where hospital requirements are looser and the number of deaths and hospitalizations has steadily risen since June.

Let's start a go fund me page for one-way tickets, lol! (Sorry @ktgrok and other Floridians, you deserve better HCWs coming your way!) 

I know it's the author's phrasing and not the workers' phrasing, but I am picturing the workers with speech bubbles saying a first person version of this and nearly giggling. "I am going to move to FL with their looser requirements and higher death rate so I can be appreciated." Lol!

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Ah!  I shouldn't have spoken up, given my experience is in IM injections in dogs, and we DO use the gluteal muscle for those. That explains the difference. 

Right, but say, if you cold only name 15 animals when talking to the Doctor, but when talking to the receptionist before and after the appointment could easily name 50, and this is a repeatable phenomenon (as in isn't transient but actually based on who you are talking to) that would point to a functional disorder. Not just if it is or isn't something that can be seen on labs/scans but if something is happening that defies biology itself. 

 

Yes, that would be a functional disorder,.  But unless after the doctor visit, I went and took a lot of steroids, I would never be able to name more animals that day.  

I do find it so strange that someone can be limping but running fine.  I do not walk normally a lot of the time, unless again, I am on a lot of steroids or there has been a particularly good period of good weather (i.e. not stormy, etc) and little stress and I haven't been doing too much.  Then maybe I walk more normally.  But I walk like Frankenstein most mornings when I get up because I am so extremely stiff- especially in my spine.  

[mommyoffive]

FDA approves Pfizer-BioNTech's vaccine; Joe Biden encourages employers to require vaccines: Latest COVID-19 updates (msn.com)

 

 

Flu vaccine could fail this year due to lack of data because of pandemic (msn.com)

 

 

What the FDA’s full vaccine authorization could mean for vaccine holdouts (msn.com)

[ktgrok]

44 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes, that would be a functional disorder,.  But unless after the doctor visit, I went and took a lot of steroids, I would never be able to name more animals that day.  

I do find it so strange that someone can be limping but running fine.  I do not walk normally a lot of the time, unless again, I am on a lot of steroids or there has been a particularly good period of good weather (i.e. not stormy, etc) and little stress and I haven't been doing too much.  Then maybe I walk more normally.  But I walk like Frankenstein most mornings when I get up because I am so extremely stiff- especially in my spine.  

Which is why you are not considered to have a functional disorder. 

[mommyoffive]

Full FDA approval: What will this change? A lot. - by Katelyn Jetelina - Your Local Epidemiologist (substack.com)

[mommyoffive]

Vaccine Mandates Move Ahead After F.D.A. Approval of Pfizer Shot (msn.com)

[KSera]

4 hours ago, calbear said:

I still can't understand why it is so difficult for people to understand that immunity can wane with a vaccination when this happens every year with the flu vaccine. I always time my flu shot no earlier than late October/early November for maximum effectiveness to coincide with peak flu season. 

And why people can't grasp that a virus mutates and has new strains. Again, we already know this to be true from the flu. 
 

That jogged my memory that with flu shots, they even do a similar thing where kids getting a flu shot for the first time get a series of two, and then just a yearly booster after that. That would be very similar to what they're looking at doing for Covid shots right now (but we don't know yet if it will continue changing enough that we need to keep getting them yearly or if it will be more like some other ones such as Hep B where three doses is the magic number that gives people durable immunity).

 

I saw this opinion/video journalism piece this afternoon and it made me so sad. It does a good job of illustrating what vaccine hesitancy looks like in some places. But it is heartbreaking to me. I still feel like many of these people are victims of politicians and other groups who have manipulated them into thinking that remaining unvaccinated is a way to flex their freedoms, but then it's too late by the time they realize what has happened 😢.

Dying in the Name of Vaccine Freedom

[Laura Corin]

This is really stark 

Many Older Americans Still Aren’t Vaccinated, Making the Delta Wave Deadlier https://nyti.ms/3mtsG6g

ETA: 'That discrepancy may help to explain why the Delta wave has led to such a higher rate of death in the United States than in Britain, public health experts say.'

[...]

'While younger, unvaccinated adults are making up an increasing share of new hospital visits, "the vast majority of people dying from Covid-19 are people who are older and unvaccinated," said David Dowdy, an infections disease epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins University.'

Edited August 24, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Katy]

On GMA the Director of NIH said he expects shots for 5-11 year olds by the end of September.

[Soror]

20 minutes ago, Katy said:

On GMA the Director of NIH said he expects shots for 5-11 year olds by the end of September.

Fingers crossed, I will breath much easier.

[ktgrok]

36 minutes ago, Katy said:

On GMA the Director of NIH said he expects shots for 5-11 year olds by the end of September.

I'd be happy if that is true!

Sunday School starts on September 12th, and will be outdoors, but with the kids in indoor (all masked) church for a bit first. I think we are going to risk it, but that means only a few Sundays until they can be vaccinated (other than the 4 yr old...I've heard supposedly they will follow soon after). 

[Katy]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'd be happy if that is true!

Sunday School starts on September 12th, and will be outdoors, but with the kids in indoor (all masked) church for a bit first. I think we are going to risk it, but that means only a few Sundays until they can be vaccinated (other than the 4 yr old...I've heard supposedly they will follow soon after). 

I hope the start soon after.  My highest risk kid is currently 2.

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

I hope the start soon after.  My highest risk kid is currently 2.

Oh, hugs! That's hard. I definitely hope they come shortly after. My higher risk one is 8, so he'll be covered but I'll pray for quick action for the younger ones!

[catz]

2 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

This is really stark 

Many Older Americans Still Aren’t Vaccinated, Making the Delta Wave Deadlier https://nyti.ms/3mtsG6g

ETA: 'That discrepancy may help to explain why the Delta wave has led to such a higher rate of death in the United States than in Britain, public health experts

It is interesting to watch how individual areas will play out too.  Our metro counties have over 95%+ of seniors vaccinated.  I think statewide it’s around 92%.  The results may end up looking very different by locale.  

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

On GMA the Director of NIH said he expects shots for 5-11 year olds by the end of September.

Oh I will go with that because I want it to be faster.

I just saw on the Today show and they are saying maybe before Thanksgiving break.  They said Pfizer will hopefully be done mid to end of Sept with the trial.  Give it to the FDA which will take a few weeks and then CDC.  So all of that they said Thanksgiving.   I was hoping the full approval would make things go faster in some way.

[mommyoffive]

Pfizer CEO expects COVID vaccine trials for kids to be completed in September (msn.com)

 

Would It Be Fair to Treat Vaccinated Covid Patients First? (msn.com)

 

Fact Check: Does CDC Advise Getting COVID Vaccine to Prepare for Hurricane? (msn.com)

 

Fauci says the vaccine-hesitant will need to get inoculated for the US to reach herd immunity (msn.com)

 

 

Pediatricians say it's a 'no-no' to vaccinate children under 12 against COVID-19 – even though it's now legal (msn.com)

 

 

[mommyoffive]

Our state is now offering $100 to get vaccinated.  This really bugs me when people who did the right thing and got vaccinated before don't get the deal.  

Gov. Tony Evers today with the Wisconsin Department of Health Services (DHS) announced Wisconsin residents who receive their first dose of any COVID-19 vaccine from a Wisconsin provider between August 20 and September 6 can collect a $100 Visa gift card. Wisconsinites ages 12 and older are eligible for the reward, and proof of insurance, I.D., or citizenship are not required to be eligible for the vaccine or to receive the $100 reward.

“As our kids start returning back to school, and with the Delta variant spreading rapidly across the state, we all need to step up and stop the spread, and our COVID-19 vaccines are the best tools we have to do just that,” said Gov. Evers. “From now through Labor Day, if you’re a Wisconsin resident and you get your first COVID-19 shot here in the state, you will get $100 bucks. It’s that simple: get vaccinated, get $100. I’m calling on all eligible Wisconsinites who have not gotten their COVID-19 vaccine yet to step up, roll up their sleeve, and do their part to help protect our state and put an end to COVID-19.” 

In order to receive the $100 Visa gift card, Wisconsin residents will need to fill out the form available at 100.wisconsin.gov. Information submitted will be used to verify that individuals received their first vaccine dose from a vaccine provider located in Wisconsin between August 20 and September 6. Visa cards will be mailed to the individual’s Wisconsin address and may take up to six weeks to be mailed to participants.

For more information on the reward program, visit the DHS $100 reward page or call 844-684-1064. Language assistance is available. To find a COVID-19 vaccine location in your community, visit Vaccines.gov or call 2-1-1 or 877-947-2211. 

“COVID-19 is continuing to spread and mutate into highly transmissible variants like the Delta variant. Fortunately, the science and data are showing us that we can protect ourselves and our loved ones by getting vaccinated,” said DHS Secretary-designee Karen Timberlake. “The vaccines are extremely safe. They are highly effective at preventing severe illness, hospitalization, and death. And they are critical to protecting our kids, our healthcare workers, and the most vulnerable people in our state. Let’s not give COVID-19 the opportunity to keep mutating: roll up your sleeve, get your vaccine, and claim your $100.”

Many Wisconsinites face financial barriers to access the COVID-19 vaccine—factors such as transportation, childcare, or the inability to take time off from work which can make it difficult for many to get vaccinated. The $100 COVID-19 Vaccine Reward Program will provide some additional support to those wanting to get protected against COVID-19. In addition to this reward, Wisconsinites can call 2-1-1 to get assistance finding transportation. There are also some services being offered by national companies listed on the COVID-19 Vaccine Incentives webpage. For those who have been financially impacted by the pandemic, visit the COVID-19 Response Resources webpage for a list of available support services. 

The $100 COVID-19 Vaccine Reward Program is part of the ongoing effort to stop the spread of the highly transmissible Delta variant by encouraging Wisconsinites to get vaccinated. Wisconsin continues to experience an increase of COVID-19 cases, driven by the Delta variant. The Delta variant is much more contagious than the original strain of COVID-19. With the original strain of COVID-19, an infected person was likely to infect two other people who are likely to infect two additional people for a total of six cases from one infection. With the Delta variant, an infected person is likely to infect five people which can lead to an approximate total of 30 cases from just one infection.

While vaccination is the most important layer of protection against COVID-19, with the high-level of disease transmission in Wisconsin, DHS is urging everyone to add more layers of protection including masking up indoors and staying home when feeling sick.

To stay up-to-date on COVID-19 and to learn more about how to stay protected, subscribe to the DHS COVID-19 Weekly Newsletter. 

[Katy]

2 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Oh I will go with that because I want it to be faster.

I just saw on the Today show and they are saying maybe before Thanksgiving break.  They said Pfizer will hopefully be done mid to end of Sept with the trial.  Give it to the FDA which will take a few weeks and then CDC.  So all of that they said Thanksgiving.   I was hoping the full approval would make things go faster in some way.

DH says it shouldn’t take weeks to review because they were already sent the data once and wanted more kids tested first.  This is part of the reason pediatricians are so angry.  They think CDC had more than enough data to determine safety already and doses can be refined later. 

[mommyoffive]

Biden calls on private companies to issue vaccine requirements (msn.com)

 

Hesitant Americans get vaccine after Pfizer gets FDA approval (msn.com)

 

‘I’m An Epidemiologist—Here’s Why COVID-19 Booster Shots Are Now Recommended After 8 Months’ (msn.com)

 

Telling conservatives it’s a shot to ‘restore our freedoms’: How online ads are promoting coronavirus vaccination (msn.com)

 

 

 

[mommyoffive]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

DH says it shouldn’t take weeks to review because they were already sent the data once and wanted more kids tested first.  This is part of the reason pediatricians are so angry.  They think CDC had more than enough data to determine safety already and doses can be refined later. 

I want that to be the case so badly.

[mommyoffive]

Here's your decision: Get vaccinated first or be infected first (msn.com)

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

Our state is now offering $100 to get vaccinated.  This really bugs me when people who did the right thing and got vaccinated before don't get the deal.  

Gov. Tony Evers today with the Wisconsin Department of Health Services (DHS) announced Wisconsin residents who receive their first dose of any COVID-19 vaccine from a Wisconsin provider between August 20 and September 6 can collect a $100 Visa gift card. Wisconsinites ages 12 and older are eligible for the reward, and proof of insurance, I.D., or citizenship are not required to be eligible for the vaccine or to receive the $100 reward.

“As our kids start returning back to school, and with the Delta variant spreading rapidly across the state, we all need to step up and stop the spread, and our COVID-19 vaccines are the best tools we have to do just that,” said Gov. Evers. “From now through Labor Day, if you’re a Wisconsin resident and you get your first COVID-19 shot here in the state, you will get $100 bucks. It’s that simple: get vaccinated, get $100. I’m calling on all eligible Wisconsinites who have not gotten their COVID-19 vaccine yet to step up, roll up their sleeve, and do their part to help protect our state and put an end to COVID-19.” 

In order to receive the $100 Visa gift card, Wisconsin residents will need to fill out the form available at 100.wisconsin.gov. Information submitted will be used to verify that individuals received their first vaccine dose from a vaccine provider located in Wisconsin between August 20 and September 6. Visa cards will be mailed to the individual’s Wisconsin address and may take up to six weeks to be mailed to participants.

For more information on the reward program, visit the DHS $100 reward page or call 844-684-1064. Language assistance is available. To find a COVID-19 vaccine location in your community, visit Vaccines.gov or call 2-1-1 or 877-947-2211. 

“COVID-19 is continuing to spread and mutate into highly transmissible variants like the Delta variant. Fortunately, the science and data are showing us that we can protect ourselves and our loved ones by getting vaccinated,” said DHS Secretary-designee Karen Timberlake. “The vaccines are extremely safe. They are highly effective at preventing severe illness, hospitalization, and death. And they are critical to protecting our kids, our healthcare workers, and the most vulnerable people in our state. Let’s not give COVID-19 the opportunity to keep mutating: roll up your sleeve, get your vaccine, and claim your $100.”

Many Wisconsinites face financial barriers to access the COVID-19 vaccine—factors such as transportation, childcare, or the inability to take time off from work which can make it difficult for many to get vaccinated. The $100 COVID-19 Vaccine Reward Program will provide some additional support to those wanting to get protected against COVID-19. In addition to this reward, Wisconsinites can call 2-1-1 to get assistance finding transportation. There are also some services being offered by national companies listed on the COVID-19 Vaccine Incentives webpage. For those who have been financially impacted by the pandemic, visit the COVID-19 Response Resources webpage for a list of available support services. 

The $100 COVID-19 Vaccine Reward Program is part of the ongoing effort to stop the spread of the highly transmissible Delta variant by encouraging Wisconsinites to get vaccinated. Wisconsin continues to experience an increase of COVID-19 cases, driven by the Delta variant. The Delta variant is much more contagious than the original strain of COVID-19. With the original strain of COVID-19, an infected person was likely to infect two other people who are likely to infect two additional people for a total of six cases from one infection. With the Delta variant, an infected person is likely to infect five people which can lead to an approximate total of 30 cases from just one infection.

While vaccination is the most important layer of protection against COVID-19, with the high-level of disease transmission in Wisconsin, DHS is urging everyone to add more layers of protection including masking up indoors and staying home when feeling sick.

To stay up-to-date on COVID-19 and to learn more about how to stay protected, subscribe to the DHS COVID-19 Weekly Newsletter. 

Sure, but I mean...I'd rather give them the money than deal with Covid forever, you know? I'd sell a minor organ at this point to make the world safer, so if 100 bucks will do it, whatever. 

[frogger]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Sure, but I mean...I'd rather give them the money than deal with Covid forever, you know? I'd sell a minor organ at this point to make the world safer, so if 100 bucks will do it, whatever. 

I much prefer the hundred dollars to the lottery thing too. For low income that lose an hourly wage, this will help to make it closer to actually free. Before there was still lost hours of work, bus tickets, etc. Hopefully, this helps.

[Syllieann]

7 minutes ago, frogger said:

I much prefer the hundred dollars to the lottery thing too. For low income that lose an hourly wage, this will help to make it closer to actually free. Before there was still lost hours of work, bus tickets, etc. Hopefully, this helps.

Yes, this is why I feel ok about it.  Lots of white collar workers had a vaccine clinic right at their place of employment and were given some leeway to deal with side effects.  I have been saying for months that they should have used tax dollars to give all the minimum wage folks a paid day off after their vaccine instead of sending out a bunch of stimulus checks to people who don't need them to buy stuff that isn't even available.

[Faith-manor]

41 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

Yes, this is why I feel ok about it.  Lots of white collar workers had a vaccine clinic right at their place of employment and were given some leeway to deal with side effects.  I have been saying for months that they should have used tax dollars to give all the minimum wage folks a paid day off after their vaccine instead of sending out a bunch of stimulus checks to people who don't need them to buy stuff that isn't even available.

Agreed. They should have funded two days of pay for business to allow workers off because covid vaccine arm is a thing, and no one should have to work during the worst of that soreness or the headaches because those were super common too. It would have been a much better use of tax dollars. I mean, we didn't buy stuff...it got applied to college tuition. However, that said, as a public policy, paying for people to be off work to get the vaccine would have been a gazillion times better.

[Faith-manor]

53 minutes ago, frogger said:

I much prefer the hundred dollars to the lottery thing too. For low income that lose an hourly wage, this will help to make it closer to actually free. Before there was still lost hours of work, bus tickets, etc. Hopefully, this helps.

I wish it was $200 or $300 each instead of all the crap the state and feds manage to subsidize with our hard earned dollars. I would gladly help a low income worker be able to get to and take the vaccine, go home and have a couple days off.

[Faith-manor]

59 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Sure, but I mean...I'd rather give them the money than deal with Covid forever, you know? I'd sell a minor organ at this point to make the world safer, so if 100 bucks will do it, whatever. 

I have an unused appendix. Anyone, anyone? 😂

But ya. Same here. Get 'er done!

[SKL]

18 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Agreed. They should have funded two days of pay for business to allow workers off because covid vaccine arm is a thing, and no one should have to work during the worst of that soreness or the headaches because those were super common too. It would have been a much better use of tax dollars. I mean, we didn't buy stuff...it got applied to college tuition. However, that said, as a public policy, paying for people to be off work to get the vaccine would have been a gazillion times better.

As an employer that absolutely needs workers to be available 24/7, a government incentive to take days off work sounds like a terrible idea to me.  As it is, our retirement-age owners have been practically living at the workplace and pulling all-nighters to fill in for employees, because it's so hard to find people who want to work.

The shots are available all day, every day, from early morning to late night, in every drugstore and many grocery stores throughout our area.  No appointment necessary.  Very few people honestly can't find an option that works for them here.  If they really have issues because they work 7 day weeks all year, then I would bet their employers would be glad to mutually schedule down time for a shot, taking into account overall staffing needs.  We'd rather do that than have people call in saying they have Covid and need to isolate for a week+ ... followed by their exposed coworker doing the same, and so on....

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I wish it was $200 or $300 each instead of all the crap the state and feds manage to subsidize with our hard earned dollars. I would gladly help a low income worker be able to get to and take the vaccine, go home and have a couple days off.

DD's employer gave everyone who got vaccinated a day off with pay ($15 x 8 hrs = $120)  plus an additional $100 bonus in the next paycheck, so the incentive was worth a minimum of $220, more for the higher paid employees.

[mathnerd]

Don’t know if this was posted in other Covid threads, but doctors in Florida staged a walkout in protest over the number of unvaccinated patients.

"They're getting this from a preventable illness," said Dr. Ethan Chapin of the unvaccinated COVID-19 patients flooding South Florida hospitals
https://people.com/health/75-doctors-from-florida-hospitals-walkout-in-protest-of-unvaccinated-patients-we-are-exhausted/
 

[mommyoffive]

5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Sure, but I mean...I'd rather give them the money than deal with Covid forever, you know? I'd sell a minor organ at this point to make the world safer, so if 100 bucks will do it, whatever. 

Sure, I just think it should be fair to everyone.  Just give everyone who has gotten vaccinated the $100.  We did it when it was a lot harder to get a shot and had to get online and be lucky to score an apt.  Plus drive a long ways from our house.  Now you can just do it at multiple stops in our small town and just walk in.  

[mommyoffive]

COVID-19 Vaccine For Children Not Likely To Be Approved Before End Of The Year : Back To School: Live Updates : NPR

[mommyoffive]

Fauci on when kids will be able to get COVID-19 vaccine - TODAY

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

COVID-19 Vaccine For Children Not Likely To Be Approved Before End Of The Year : Back To School: Live Updates : NPR

There seems to be some wrangling about this within the administration. The interesting thing is that it seems like the people further from the actual analysis are being much more sensible. It seems like the people who are used to evaluating this stuff are being mulish and they want things to be "business as usual." Basically, they can't zoom out onto the whole picture: they just want to do a "good job" in the way they are used to. 

This is just an impression from skimming all the articles, though. 

[whitestavern]

1 hour ago, mathnerd said:

Don’t know if this was posted in other Covid threads, but doctors in Florida staged a walkout in protest over the number of unvaccinated patients.

"They're getting this from a preventable illness," said Dr. Ethan Chapin of the unvaccinated COVID-19 patients flooding South Florida hospitals
https://people.com/health/75-doctors-from-florida-hospitals-walkout-in-protest-of-unvaccinated-patients-we-are-exhausted/
 

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/fact-focus-florida-doctors-did-not-walk-off-the-job/

 

[mommyoffive]

Antibody Levels Help Predict Immunity After A COVID Shot : Shots - Health News : NPR

[AbcdeDooDah]

Do we have info on severe reactions to the vaccine protecting against "breakthrough" cases? 

 

[mommyoffive]

Republicans keep hiding behind White Democrats to shift vaccine hesitancy blame onto Blacks (msn.com)

 

New name of Pfizer vaccine draws vicious online critique (msn.com)

[Not_a_Number]

25 minutes ago, Plum said:

Doctors and hospitals are not in the blame and punishment business'- Becker’s Hospital Review

Should a hospital running low on beds and staff prioritize vaccinated COVID-19 patients before their unvaccinated counterparts? Absolutely not, says Daniel Wikler, PhD, professor of ethics and population health at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

In an op-ed for The Washington Post, Dr. Wikler said the question of whether denying urgently needed care to punish a patient for their unhealthy choices is defensible is hardly new. And the answer has always, and continues to be, no.

He contends that everyone who can be vaccinated should be, but the threat of denying care to patients in need to punish them for their judgment does not warrant a role in public health policy. 

"Many of those who need liver transplants ruined their original livers through overconsumption of alcohol. Treatment for lung cancer would rarely be needed if people didn't smoke. Injured practitioners of extreme sports had safer recreational choices," Dr. Wikler wrote. 

"When patients like these are evaluated for healthcare, their priority depends on how serious their condition is, how urgently they need help and how well they are likely to do if they're treated. What does not matter is culpability, blame, sin, cluelessness, ignorance or other personal failing. Doctors and hospitals are not in the blame and punishment business. Nor should they be. That doctors treat sinners and responsible citizens alike is a noble tradition, an ethical feature and not a bug. And we shouldn't abandon it now."

The ethicist also noted that the physician-patient relationship is built upon trust, which patients are less likely to extend if they feel judged. At the same time, Dr. Wikler argued that unvaccinated patients should expect restrictions to their daily life, including COVID-19 testing and wearing a mask as conditions of receiving care. 

"Even when not following public health advice is the reason hospitals and clinics must resort to triage, priorities should be based on the traditional canons of urgency, need and likely outcome. For some, schadenfreude may be unavoidable when [COVID-19] skeptics find themselves battling the virus for survival. Keep that private. We owe everyone their best chance to come out of this pandemic alive."

While I agree with him 100%, I think the fact that healthcare workers have been stretched past endurance really plays into people's behavior. I don't THINK that people should withhold treatment from the unvaccinated. That's repellent. But I can also understand being a doctor or a nurse who hasn't had a break in 18 months and just feeling ANGRY that someone was spreading infectious disease and making my life harder due to some half-baked nonsense they read online. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

In an op-ed for The Washington Post, Dr. Wikler said the question of whether denying urgently needed care to punish a patient for their unhealthy choices is defensible is hardly new. And the answer has always, and continues to be, no.

I agree it's unethical to deny care as a way to punish patients for their unhealthy choices. No doubt about that. What I have heard physicians say is that when hospitals are full and they have to triage care, the vaccinated patients are likely to have better outcomes and so are likely to end up getting first priority for treatment for that reason, because that's how patient triage in an overloaded hospital situation works (talking about very ill breakthrough cases, not the more common mild breakthrough cases that won't need any hospital care at all).

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, Plum said:

Doctors and hospitals are not in the blame and punishment business'- Becker’s Hospital Review

Should a hospital running low on beds and staff prioritize vaccinated COVID-19 patients before their unvaccinated counterparts? Absolutely not, says Daniel Wikler, PhD, professor of ethics and population health at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

In an op-ed for The Washington Post, Dr. Wikler said the question of whether denying urgently needed care to punish a patient for their unhealthy choices is defensible is hardly new. And the answer has always, and continues to be, no.

He contends that everyone who can be vaccinated should be, but the threat of denying care to patients in need to punish them for their judgment does not warrant a role in public health policy. 

"Many of those who need liver transplants ruined their original livers through overconsumption of alcohol. Treatment for lung cancer would rarely be needed if people didn't smoke. Injured practitioners of extreme sports had safer recreational choices," Dr. Wikler wrote. 

"When patients like these are evaluated for healthcare, their priority depends on how serious their condition is, how urgently they need help and how well they are likely to do if they're treated. What does not matter is culpability, blame, sin, cluelessness, ignorance or other personal failing. Doctors and hospitals are not in the blame and punishment business. Nor should they be. That doctors treat sinners and responsible citizens alike is a noble tradition, an ethical feature and not a bug. And we shouldn't abandon it now."

The ethicist also noted that the physician-patient relationship is built upon trust, which patients are less likely to extend if they feel judged. At the same time, Dr. Wikler argued that unvaccinated patients should expect restrictions to their daily life, including COVID-19 testing and wearing a mask as conditions of receiving care. 

"Even when not following public health advice is the reason hospitals and clinics must resort to triage, priorities should be based on the traditional canons of urgency, need and likely outcome. For some, schadenfreude may be unavoidable when [COVID-19] skeptics find themselves battling the virus for survival. Keep that private. We owe everyone their best chance to come out of this pandemic alive."

Dr Wikler is engaging in dishonest spin--as he is surely aware.

Unvaccinated patients are not being "punished" for their choices. He is lying.

What is being considered in triage situations (when the need for ICU beds and vents are stretched beyond capacity) is taking vaccine status as one factor in who gets the bed.

That's not a judgement of "behavior," but rather a medical judgement who has the best odds of survival. That's what "triage" is about.

Those who are vaccinated have better odds of survival (everything else being equal).

Why is this guy so dishonest?

Bill

 

 

[wathe]

52 minutes ago, KSera said:

I agree it's unethical to deny care as a way to punish patients for their unhealthy choices. No doubt about that. What I have heard physicians say is that when hospitals are full and they have to triage care, the vaccinated patients are likely to have better outcomes and so are likely to end up getting first priority for treatment for that reason, because that's how patient triage in an overloaded hospital situation works (talking about very ill breakthrough cases, not the more common mild breakthrough cases that won't need any hospital care at all).

This.