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I realize that trying to preemptively collect all of what will surely be a zillion more vaccine posts into one thread is a fool's errand, but at least it's a place to start.  

Very interesting article about taking two different vaccines.

The FDA committee meeting next Thursday to discuss the Pfizer vaccine is going to be webcast.   The kids and I might try to watch some of it, although I imagine the discussion will be quite esoteric.

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I’m getting the Pfizer vaccine on Monday! I’m prepping myself for some side effects, so am glad I’ll have a few days to recover before Christmas.

My health care provider called me today and said my turn has come to get the vaccine and I'd be able to get my first shot of Moderna on Monday. I literally broke into tears of joy.  Bill

My dd works at a grocery store and people have actually shared their positive test results as she's bagging their groceries, as in, "I tested positive 3 days ago." More than once.

26 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I won;'t be able to take any live vaccines.  I will be able to take either Pzizer or Moderna vaccines.  And that is true of so many autoimmune people including most asthmatics.

I hadn't even thought of this!  I guess I need to talk to my immunologist.  Thank you for mentioning it.

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1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

I won;'t be able to take any live vaccines.  I will be able to take either Pzizer or Moderna vaccines.  And that is true of so many autoimmune people including most asthmatics.

My kid with auto inflammatory disease (not autoimmune but related) couldn’t take live vaccines, and so I have read a fair amount on it and I have never heard the suggestion that people with asthma avoid live vaccines unless they are currently on oral steroids.  We were told by that kid’s pediatrician that it was fine.

 

My understanding from my son is that the issue with vaccines and immune system is two fold.  One is that for some people whose immune system is damaged enough the live vaccine may be still enough to cause symptoms.  The other is that if someone’s immune system is compromised  enough, either by a disease like SCID or by medications like biologics and oral steroids they won’t mount a response to the vaccine so it won’t work.  

 

My kid got any vaccine that wasn’t live but we were told to assume they didn’t work when making choices for him. 

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21 minutes ago, JennyD said:

It looks like very few vaccines in development use attenuated viruses, and certainly none of the US frontrunners.  

As I understand it, Astro-Zeneca/Oxford uses a virus from chimpanzees that doesn't replicate in the human body, as the vehicle to get the spike protein into people's body and trigger an immune response.  So, I guess the vaccine is live, but it's not the same as an attenuated virus.  I haven't seen anything about whether this kind of vaccine will cause problems for people with immunosuppression. 

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re what 2021 might look like

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

One take on what 2021 could look like.

Thanks for this. I like the way it's structured, with ordinary life shifts premised on medical events poised to play out month by month.  Maybe a bit heavier on sports events as defining social normalcy, and maybe a bit more on estimating what % of the population of different segments actually get immunized would be helpful.  But as as starting point in thinking about what the transition on the other side will look like, I like the basic structure.

If this, then.  Not a switch, but an incremental process contingent on the medical sector, the delivery mechanics and competence, and human behavior.

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1 hour ago, JennyD said:

One take on what 2021 could look like.

I'm really curious what the IOC will do about the Olympics. Next summer really doesn't seem like it's logistically feasible, so will they postpone it again to 2022, and hold both the summer and winter games in the same year? Or will they just skip it altogether and not have another summer games until 2024? And if they go ahead in 2022, do they go back to the schedule of both games in the same year, or will they have another summer games 2 years later in 2024?

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Multiple outlets are reporting that in order to help facilitate public trust, former POTUSes Obama, Bush and Clinton have all agreed to get the COVID vaccine publicly once it is approved for use and deployment priorities are worked out.  CNN is reported that GWB first reached out to CDC on his own initiative to offer up any help he could give, and the others quickly agreed to participate as well.

from the article:

Quote

...Freddy Ford, Bush's chief of staff, told CNN that the 43rd President had reached out to Dr. Anthony Fauci -- the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the nation's top infectious disease expert -- and Dr. Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, to see how he could help promote the vaccine.

"A few weeks ago President Bush asked me to let Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx know that, when the time is right, he wants to do what he can to help encourage his fellow citizens to get vaccinated," Ford told CNN. "First, the vaccines need to be deemed safe and administered to the priority populations. Then, President Bush will get in line for his, and will gladly do so on camera."

 

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22 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

How old do kids need to be to get the regular vax and not a peds version?

I don't know that we know this.  Both Pfizer and Moderna   are going to be doing vaccine tests for those over 12.  I suspect that in that group, they will be getting the same vaccine doses as adults.  For the record, once kids reach puberty or even close to it, they tend to get medications in the same doses as adults except for medications that need to be titered to weight.

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8 minutes ago, popmom said:

According to the friend I saw recently, stories are circulating online that the side effects of the vaccine are horrendous--that it makes people very ill. This is why I ditched social media. Has anyone seen any data on this? 

My friend that is a doctor did have some information that the second dose (I think) did produce some side effects of headache and feeling ill for about 24 hours after the shot.... so plan in taking a day off work, etc.   She is going to get the vaccine as soon as she can as she said she can't in good conscience suggest it to her patients if she doesn't get it herself.

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18 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

My friend that is a doctor did have some information that the second dose (I think) did produce some side effects of headache and feeling ill for about 24 hours after the shot.... so plan in taking a day off work, etc.   She is going to get the vaccine as soon as she can as she said she can't in good conscience suggest it to her patients if she doesn't get it herself.

Personally, I don't mind some side effects because then I'll know it's doing its thing. 

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35 minutes ago, popmom said:

According to the friend I saw recently, stories are circulating online that the side effects of the vaccine are horrendous--that it makes people very ill. This is why I ditched social media. Has anyone seen any data on this? 

Both Moderna and Pfizer reported that some patients experienced significant side effects but they generally resolved within 24 hours, and most do not experience more than basic symptoms such as tiredness, soreness at the injection site, or headache.

From Pfizer: "The only Grade 3 (severe) solicited adverse events greater than or equal to 2% in frequency after the first or second dose was fatigue at 3.8% and headache at 2.0% following dose 2."

From Moderna: "adverse reactions included injection site pain, fatigue, myalgia, arthralgia, headache, and erythema/redness at the injection site. Solicited adverse reactions increased in frequency and severity in the mRNA-1273 group after the second dose."

Here is an article  documenting the quite severe reaction of one Moderna participant — but even in his case, he was fully recovered within a day or two. He also got the highest dose of the vaccine they tested (as did 3 of the 4 who experienced Grade 3 reactions), which is not the one Moderna will be distributing.

Here is another comment on Moderna side effects: "Dr. Carlos del Rio, a vaccine scientist at Emory University in Atlanta, was involved in testing the Moderna vaccine. The symptoms he saw were quite similar to symptoms people get when they get the shingles vaccine. For many, the shingles vaccine creates a strong reaction. 'You feel terrible for a day or two but then you're fine,' del Rio says."

 

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4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Both Moderna and Pfizer reported that some patients experienced significant side effects but they generally resolved within 24 hours, and most do not experience more than basic symptoms such as tiredness, soreness at the injection site, or headache.

From Pfizer: "The only Grade 3 (severe) solicited adverse events greater than or equal to 2% in frequency after the first or second dose was fatigue at 3.8% and headache at 2.0% following dose 2."

From Moderna: "adverse reactions included injection site pain, fatigue, myalgia, arthralgia, headache, and erythema/redness at the injection site. Solicited adverse reactions increased in frequency and severity in the mRNA-1273 group after the second dose."

Here is an article  documenting the quite severe reaction of one Moderna participant — but even in his case, he was fully recovered within a day or two. He also got the highest dose of the vaccine they tested (as did 3 of the 4 who experienced Grade 3 reactions), which is not the one Moderna will be distributing.

Here is another comment on Moderna side effects: "Dr. Carlos del Rio, a vaccine scientist at Emory University in Atlanta, was involved in testing the Moderna vaccine. The symptoms he saw were quite similar to symptoms people get when they get the shingles vaccine. For many, the shingles vaccine creates a strong reaction. 'You feel terrible for a day or two but then you're fine,' del Rio says."

 

The guy in the article you linked--maybe this is what my friend was talking about. Only it's being spread around to scare people. 

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10 minutes ago, popmom said:

The guy in the article you linked--maybe this is what my friend was talking about. Only it's being spread around to scare people. 

Yeah, unfortunately I suspect there will be a lot of that, along with people claiming "the vaccine gave me covid!" because they ran a fever and/or felt really tired for a couple of days afterwards. ☹️

ETA: if you see anyone citing that article or that guy's case, you can let them know that he got a very high dose of vaccine, and the actual vaccine that is distributed will be a lower dose that is much less likely to cause such a severe reaction. And even that guy says he is very glad he got the vaccine and doesn't want his experience to make people avoid it.

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1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Yeah, unfortunately I suspect there will be a lot of that, along with people claiming "the vaccine gave me covid!" because they ran a fever and/or felt really tired for a couple of days afterwards. ☹️

ETA: if you see anyone citing that article or that guy's case, you can let them know that he got a very high dose of vaccine, and the actual vaccine that is distributed will be a lower dose that is much less likely to cause such a severe reaction. And even that guy says he is very glad he got the vaccine and doesn't want his experience to make people avoid it.

I will absolutely. Most people will come around. I understand the skepticism. I'm even a little leery of this mRNA vaccine a bit. But not enough to not take it! I cannot wait for this to be available.

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It looks like shortages of raw materials for making vaccines might be the next challenge.  I have to say even 50,000,000 doses is an impressive target though and hopefully will make a difference when used judiciously.

https://time.com/5917847/pfizer-cut-covid-19-vaccine-targets/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=health_covid-19&linkId=106249523

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4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Both Moderna and Pfizer reported that some patients experienced significant side effects but they generally resolved within 24 hours, and most do not experience more than basic symptoms such as tiredness, soreness at the injection site, or headache.

From Pfizer: "The only Grade 3 (severe) solicited adverse events greater than or equal to 2% in frequency after the first or second dose was fatigue at 3.8% and headache at 2.0% following dose 2."

From Moderna: "adverse reactions included injection site pain, fatigue, myalgia, arthralgia, headache, and erythema/redness at the injection site. Solicited adverse reactions increased in frequency and severity in the mRNA-1273 group after the second dose."

Here is an article  documenting the quite severe reaction of one Moderna participant — but even in his case, he was fully recovered within a day or two. He also got the highest dose of the vaccine they tested (as did 3 of the 4 who experienced Grade 3 reactions), which is not the one Moderna will be distributing.

Here is another comment on Moderna side effects: "Dr. Carlos del Rio, a vaccine scientist at Emory University in Atlanta, was involved in testing the Moderna vaccine. The symptoms he saw were quite similar to symptoms people get when they get the shingles vaccine. For many, the shingles vaccine creates a strong reaction. 'You feel terrible for a day or two but then you're fine,' del Rio says."

 

Is it odd that they told him he was getting the high dose or is that normal for a phase 1 trial?  

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24 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Is it odd that they told him he was getting the high dose or is that normal for a phase 1 trial?  

I don't know if they ever explicitly told him he had the highest dose, even after he received it. The conclusion comes from the fact that Moderna reported four "Grade 3" events, 3 of which involved the highest dose and caused systemic reactions that affected the whole body. The 4th case involved the lower dose, and that person just had a rash at the injection site, so that was clearly not Haydon.

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5 hours ago, popmom said:

According to the friend I saw recently, stories are circulating online that the side effects of the vaccine are horrendous--that it makes people very ill. This is why I ditched social media. Has anyone seen any data on this? 

Everything I've seen says the side effects last about 24 hours. Fever, aches, fatigue. 

Obviously, I have not had the covid vax yet, but I was vaccinated against rabies several years ago, (pre-emptive to enroll in a veterinary technician program).  That vaccine was rough. The first two shots were "normal", (arm was a little sore). The third and final shot gave me a 104 fever, extreme fatigue, headache, and made my skin ache from head to toe. I remember needing to get up to get some Tylenol and it took me an hour to do it, ("Ok, I'm going to put one foot on the floor. Ok, now rest. Now put the other foot on the floor. Ok, I need more rest....".  I called the doctor, and they were like "Yeah, you're having the more severe side effects of the vaccine. You'll be fine in 24 hours. Rest, fluids, Tylenol, Urgent Care if the fever increases". And, I was fine in 24 hours, like they said. 

I'm expecting a similar experience with the covid vax. The side effects of rabies vax were miserable, but getting rabies would be lethal. I'd rather have one $h!tty day post-vax than weeks or months of dealing with Covid and not knowing whether I'll survive. 

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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Is it odd that they told him he was getting the high dose or is that normal for a phase 1 trial?  

 

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

I don't know if they ever explicitly told him he had the highest dose, even after he received it. The conclusion comes from the fact that Moderna reported four "Grade 3" events, 3 of which involved the highest dose and caused systemic reactions that affected the whole body. The 4th case involved the lower dose, and that person just had a rash at the injection site, so that was clearly not Haydon.

Well that’s what it seemed to say in the article.  It said he was waiting for a long time and they said it was because they were doing it from lowest to highest dose or something.

so it was 3/45 on the higher dose that had the reaction but then the next phase of the trial they used lower dosing and it didn’t happen again if I understand right?

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Did anyone see the Dateline special last night about the vaccines? They don't think we'll be able to have enough people vaccinated to get any semblance of normal life until at least next summer or fall, although National Guard members are practicing moving the vaccines without letting them thaw. They talked to the CEO's of the the pharamaceutical companies who said they were surprised at how well the vaccines did in the trials. They also talked about the billions the government gave to some of the companies (Pfizer put up their own billions) to encourage companies to go all out on vaccine development since they weren't risking their own money. They asked about trial volunteers who got the placebo and the Pfizer CEO said it would be unethical not to get those volunteers vaccinated, which is encouraging because DS doesn't know which he got. He had NO side effects, so he could have gotten the placebo.

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2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

If anyone is into logistics... Slate just published the Maine distribution plan:

https://slate.com/technology/2020/12/maine-covid-vaccine-distribution-plan.html

Fun to think about!

Really interesting article! I love that they figured out they could use ultra cold storage at community colleges in areas without hospitals, and that they were thinking of details like "how many pairs of gloves do we need for the people handling dry ice." Let's hope every state is as thorough and well organized. 

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9 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Really interesting article! I love that they figured out they could use ultra cold storage at community colleges in areas without hospitals, and that they were thinking of details like "how many pairs of gloves do we need for the people handling dry ice." Let's hope every state is as thorough and well organized. 

I'm a little concerned, because of the temperatures these have to be stored at, someone who is vaccine-suspicious could "accidentally" deliberately spoil a lot of them through sabotage. (Or even a true accident could mess a lot up) It's going to go through the hands of a lot of people getting to recipients.

 

I am a little wary of the vaccine. But I'm willing to take the risk, when the time comes (I'm not going to be one of the first to get it because I'm not that high priority by any metric) to help the country get out of the fear-state we're in right now.  We are exploring getting our 13 year old into the trials for kids because they are asking for volunteers for kids 12+ locally.

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29 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

Did anyone see the Dateline special last night about the vaccines? They don't think we'll be able to have enough people vaccinated to get any semblance of normal life until at least next summer or fall, although National Guard members are practicing moving the vaccines without letting them thaw. They talked to the CEO's of the the pharamaceutical companies who said they were surprised at how well the vaccines did in the trials. They also talked about the billions the government gave to some of the companies (Pfizer put up their own billions) to encourage companies to go all out on vaccine development since they weren't risking their own money. They asked about trial volunteers who got the placebo and the Pfizer CEO said it would be unethical not to get those volunteers vaccinated, which is encouraging because DS doesn't know which he got. He had NO side effects, so he could have gotten the placebo.

Yeah, it makes sense about normal life, because we need kids vaccinated for normal life. But I do expect a reprieve in the summer, anyway, so between that and the vaccine it seems like life ought to improve. 

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Interesting article about progress into understanding the immune markers for actual protection.

My BIL got a call two days ago to be a subject in the Johnson and Johnson trial and got his shot yesterday.  They are testing a single-dose protocol.  He was very surprised that they took him because he is almost entirely isolated -- so not likely to be a useful subject to test efficacy -- but he said that they asked very few questions about his exposure and were mostly interested in his health.  He had some mild symptoms yesterday but isn't totally sure if they were 'real' or in his head.  No soreness in his arm, though.  

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12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Good summary of the side effects of the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, with a "severe" reaction defined as one that interferes with daily activities:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/fever-aches-pfizer-moderna-jabs-aren-t-dangerous-may-be-intense-some

I think that we need some agreement about what "mild" is vs "severe".  

I've heard people say that they'd rather have covid than a vaccine because some people have "severe" reactions to vaccines, where as most people have "mild" covid.  But if they understood that a "severe" vaccine reaction might be 12 hours of flu like symptoms, and a "mild" case of covid might be months of symptoms and anything short of a hospital stay, maybe they'd feel differently?

 

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2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I think that we need some agreement about what "mild" is vs "severe".  

I've heard people say that they'd rather have covid than a vaccine because some people have "severe" reactions to vaccines, where as most people have "mild" covid.  But if they understood that a "severe" vaccine reaction might be 12 hours of flu like symptoms, and a "mild" case of covid might be months of symptoms and anything short of a hospital stay, maybe they'd feel differently?
 

I think you have a very good point. 

Frankly, I've never had a reaction to a vaccine that was anywhere close to as annoying as a common cold. Colds make me miserable for a week; it's hard to sleep; my throat is sore; I sneeze a lot. The worst I've had with a vaccine was a sore arm; the worst my kids have had with a vaccine was being lethargic for a day and maybe a mild fever. 

I understand that's not the case for everyone (some people really do have a hard time with vaccines), but I suspect that's the case for a lot of people. As you say, people need to understand that the scale is different. The same way you'd probably rather have a few hundred dollar bills versus a ton of pennies 😉

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On 12/4/2020 at 10:13 AM, JennyD said:

  He was very surprised that they took him because he is almost entirely isolated -- so not likely to be a useful subject to test efficacy -- but he said that they asked very few questions about his exposure and were mostly interested in his health. 

This could be a little concerning if the two groups and up to have different exposure profiles. I suppose if they’re not asking anyone, there should be a good chance that the risk evens out across both groups. You don’t want to end up with a vaccine arm it has a high percentage of people with low exposure, and a placebo group with a high proportion of high exposure. It seems like it would give better data if all the employees of one workplace could be split up between the two groups, but knowing what we know now about how well the vaccines are performing, that seems unethical.

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Just now, kand said:

This could be a little concerning if the two groups and up to have different exposure profiles. I suppose if they’re not asking anyone, there should be a good chance that the risk evens out across both groups. You don’t want to end up with a vaccine arm it has a high percentage of people with low exposure, and a placebo group with a high proportion of high exposure. It seems like it would give better data if all the employees of one workplace could be split up between the two groups, but knowing what we know now about how well the vaccines are performing, that seems unethical.

Isn't it randomized? Randomization generally takes care of all that. 

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Isn't it randomized? Randomization generally takes care of all that. 

I’m sure it is, but I thought I recalled their usually being some checks in place to ensure their weren’t unintended mismatches between the study groups. Maybe not, though. I agree with a very large, randomized study, it shouldn’t be an issue. 

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On 12/4/2020 at 9:17 AM, vonfirmath said:

I'm a little concerned, because of the temperatures these have to be stored at, someone who is vaccine-suspicious could "accidentally" deliberately spoil a lot of them through sabotage. (Or even a true accident could mess a lot up) It's going to go through the hands of a lot of people getting to recipients.

 

I am a little wary of the vaccine. But I'm willing to take the risk, when the time comes (I'm not going to be one of the first to get it because I'm not that high priority by any metric) to help the country get out of the fear-state we're in right now.  We are exploring getting our 13 year old into the trials for kids because they are asking for volunteers for kids 12+ locally.


power outages could be a problem - idk if facilities contemplated have back up power, but it seems like that would be important 

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5 minutes ago, kand said:

I’m sure it is, but I thought I recalled their usually being some checks in place to ensure their weren’t unintended mismatches between the study groups. Maybe not, though. I agree with a very large, randomized study, it shouldn’t be an issue. 

Hmmm, I'm not sure. I haven't heard of any matching being done with a truly randomized study. Usually, matching is done for observational studies where randomization isn't possible. 

But I'm not a statistician; I just play one on these forums 😉 . That is, I've never actually designed a large study, even though I understand the principles behind it. So if I'm wrong, someone should correct me. 

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On 12/2/2020 at 3:12 PM, TravelingChris said:

I won;'t be able to take any live vaccines.  I will be able to take either Pzizer or Moderna vaccines.  And that is true of so many autoimmune people including most asthmatics.

Thanks, I was wondering about that!  I have a dd with an autoimmune disease, so had questions about the vaccines.

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25 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmm, I'm not sure. I haven't heard of any matching being done with a truly randomized study. Usually, matching is done for observational studies where randomization isn't possible. 

But I'm not a statistician; I just play one on these forums 😉 . That is, I've never actually designed a large study, even though I understand the principles behind it. So if I'm wrong, someone should correct me. 

Yeah, I do think you’re right. It was just a thought that jumped out at me when reading that. With a big study, that should be taken care of. some studies do matched subjects, but not for a group this big.

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From conversations with research doctors I know, they're comfortable with the vaccines knowing all the steps they're required to go through.

I've also heard that if you can handle the MMR vaccine, you can handle the Covid vaccine.

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On 12/2/2020 at 3:12 PM, TravelingChris said:

I won;'t be able to take any live vaccines.  I will be able to take either Pzizer or Moderna vaccines.  And that is true of so many autoimmune people including most asthmatics.

I don't think there are any live attenuated virus vaccines that are anywhere near to being rolled out. The Astra-Zenica one has an adenovirus with just the SARS-CoV2 spike protein on it - it just contains the protein that your body is supposed to learn to recognize, not the whole thing.

What’s The Difference Between Covid-19 Coronavirus Vaccines? (forbes.com)

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52 minutes ago, J-rap said:

From conversations with research doctors I know, they're comfortable with the vaccines knowing all the steps they're required to go through.

I've also heard that if you can handle the MMR vaccine, you can handle the Covid vaccine.

Well that is the thing,. I can't do the MMR.  But supposedly, I can do the Pzirer.   (I did have MMR at least once but I think 2 x before I was on medications).

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I meant to add that BIL said that the JnJ trial at his location (in L.A.) had pretty much filled their under-40 slots but was looking for older people.  He will get something like $2000 over the course of the study so he thinks that it's probably been drawing younger, unemployed folks.  The nurse told him that they have a thousand people on their list, though, and they enroll 16 people a day just at that one site.  She works 12-hour days, 7 days a week.

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7 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think you have a very good point. 

Frankly, I've never had a reaction to a vaccine that was anywhere close to as annoying as a common cold. Colds make me miserable for a week; it's hard to sleep; my throat is sore; I sneeze a lot. The worst I've had with a vaccine was a sore arm; the worst my kids have had with a vaccine was being lethargic for a day and maybe a mild fever. 

I understand that's not the case for everyone (some people really do have a hard time with vaccines), but I suspect that's the case for a lot of people. As you say, people need to understand that the scale is different. The same way you'd probably rather have a few hundred dollar bills versus a ton of pennies 😉

Exactly or the way you’d rather have a bad cold than the “good” kind of cancer as people call it.

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As they start showing Vaccine cards, etc locally. I had a few more thoughts. How strict is the distance apart two vaccines need to be taken?

Who will be recording the data of who got the vaccine? Will it go to the same vaccine department than records childhood vaccines or some other department? I know my husband's job expanded with coronavirus testing to do some of the recordkeeping for that. Are any other vaccines two part? IE are we likely to have databases that keep track of two different dates for a vaccine, and that both are done. Or does this involve software work as well?

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HPV is three part, Hep B is three part.  Lots of series given to infants have more than one part.

I think we already have systems in place for tracking that.  For example the health department tracks all public school kids, the military tracks.  Things like hospitals track for their employees.  I think we’d need to scale up but compared to challenges like keeping the vaccine in deep freeze, I think this one is easy.

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