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The Vaccine Thread

JennyD

By JennyD,
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Shoeless

Shoeless

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

In a state as big as Texas, if they don't start electronic recordkeeping I don't see how they catch up later.

(one way electronic happens is paper records taken in the non-connected labs and then delivered to the statewide location for entry)

 

Maybe they'll enter all the covid vaccine info into ImmTrac2? 

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Spy Car
Spy Car

Trigger warning: skip this post if upsetting Covid news is not what you need to hear at this moment.   I just got a call from my wife. Last week the special needs (autism) classroom she work

Corraleno
Corraleno

Unvaccinated people ARE keeping us from being able to tamp covid down. I mean that is not even debatable — 85% of cases, 95% of hospitalizations, and 96% of deaths are unvaccinated. If everyone was va

WildflowerMom
WildflowerMom

Y’all!!!!  My ds20 is getting his first dose of MODERNA tomorrow!!!!!!!!   I’ve begged and begged and finally he said yes!!!!!!!   🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

vonfirmath

vonfirmath

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

Maybe they'll enter all the covid vaccine info into ImmTrac2? 

That's what I meant by the same department as records existing vaccines. Though even then I wonder how the database is programmed -- does each vaccine need to be added individually or is it robust enough to add vaccines to -- after all they have to add a new Influenza every year (right?)  I'm sure this is part of someone's job right now -- to figure out the logistics. If it will mean more hours for the current employees, hiring temps to handle this data, or expanding the workforce.

 

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Shoeless

Shoeless

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

That's what I meant by the same department as records existing vaccines. Though even then I wonder how the database is programmed -- does each vaccine need to be added individually or is it robust enough to add vaccines to -- after all they have to add a new Influenza every year (right?)  I'm sure this is part of someone's job right now -- to figure out the logistics. If it will mean more hours for the current employees, hiring temps to handle this data, or expanding the workforce.

 

I would imagine whatever software interface they use gives the end user the ability to manually enter new types of vaccines. If it doesn't, the other option is for the end user to select the vaccine type from a pre-populated list or drop down list. 

However it works, it doesn't sound like a huge coding job on the surface. I have not programmed in a long time, (I used to code for the USAF), and I have no idea how any of the ImmTrac2 stuff is written, but I would not expect a task like this to require a substantial increase in workforce or hours worked. Depending on how everything is written, the work to change the code could take anywhere from an hour to a week of work? Maybe? Maybe a bit longer if they need to take the new vaccine data and compile it into reports.  The databases would probably have to be "expanded" to handle the records of the entire state of Texas. Maybe they'd need to add some servers to handle it all. The good thing is that they already have an existing system to add this data to.  If they needed to build an entire system from the ground up, now THAT would be heck of a lot of work. Instead, it sounds more like needing to add a few new data fields and scale up database storage. That's much easier to accomplish quickly. 

I was under the impression that the data was entered into ImmTrac2 at the individual physician's office/point of vaccination. Maybe that is wrong? I could possibly find out this week how that data is entered. I kinda-sorta know a physician, and they might be willing to discuss it with me. 

If individual shot records are entered at the point of vaccination, I don't think Texas would necessarily need to hire any additional staff to handle the data. If the shots are given at health departments, the health department people will enter the data via their existing computers. 

The coding and database stuff seems like the easiest part of the logistics, IMO. 

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Scarlett

Scarlett

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On 12/4/2020 at 2:01 AM, Ausmumof3 said:

It looks like shortages of raw materials for making vaccines might be the next challenge.  I have to say even 50,000,000 doses is an impressive target though and hopefully will make a difference when used judiciously.

https://time.com/5917847/pfizer-cut-covid-19-vaccine-targets/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=health_covid-19&linkId=106249523

What exactly IS the raw material?  

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Laura Corin

Laura Corin

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Oh, I'm so happy for her! I hope she can see her family very soon. ❤️ 

Yes.  I think she must live independently, because this took place in a hospital rather than a care home - hospital logistics are a little easier.  My mum is in the right age group but is in a care home, so the vaccination will probably be later for her.  The home is setting up testing to allow me to - with luck - visit her before Christmas though, but still distanced and masked.

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ieta_cassiopeia

ieta_cassiopeia

Posted
Posted
On 12/6/2020 at 4:24 AM, vonfirmath said:

As they start showing Vaccine cards, etc locally. I had a few more thoughts. How strict is the distance apart two vaccines need to be taken?

Depends which vaccine it is. Siome are 21 days (e.g. Pzifer), others are 28 days (e.g. Oxford). I assume vaccine cards will only be issued after the last dose is taken, and dated from 7 days after the dose is given (because that's how long it takes for vaccines to be guaranteed to protect at the level they are rated to protect).

 

On 12/6/2020 at 4:32 PM, Scarlett said:

What exactly IS the raw material?  

 

Vaccine containers, syringes, extra containers for fridge/freezer storage and disposable PPE. And yes, dry ice as @Laura Corin mentioned.

At the moment, all the English distribution is through hospitals. I think the plan is to use them as distribution centres once everyone eligible in hospital has been immunised (at the moment, that's over-80s and healthcare staff identified as at unusual risk of spreading COVID due to the nature of their work). One of the issues with the Pzifer vaccine is that it is shipped in packs of 945 and at the moment cannot be split without starting the 5-day period that it is stable in a regular fridge. So having the main packs in hospitals means that when it is the turn of care homes to receive the vaccine, it will be easier to co-ordinate the doses' release.

I can confirm that Margaret Keenan, who received the first vaccine in the UK, lives alone, because she said she hadn't seen anyone for most of the year, I suspect PR may be one of the deciding factors for early ordering - how else to explain the coincidence that William Shakespeare was the second person vaccinated?

In tangential news, The Lancet has published an interim analysis of Oxford-AstraZeneca's Phase III trial.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, RootAnn said:

On the topic of data/record keeping, it looks like states planned on just adding it to their existing data but the federal government wants to begin a federal database: https://dnyuz.com/2020/12/08/c-d-c-call-for-data-on-vaccine-recipients-raises-alarm-over-privacy/

And it's not just a federal database, it's run by a private data-mining company, Palantir Technologies, whose founder and CEO is Trump mega-donor Peter Thiel. Palantir also has contracts with US intelligence agencies, and they run the covid tracking database that was taken away from CDC and put under direct control of political appointees in HHS. They are requiring detailed personal information that has never been required for vaccines before, which opponents fear may be shared with other government agencies such as ICE — to whom they already provide surveillance and profiling tools. It also raises the possibility that data provided by Palantir on issues like vaccine compliance and adverse effects could be manipulated for political purposes, especially if CDC scientists do not have direct access to the data.

With a significant percentage of the population already saying they won't take the vaccine for crazy reasons like Bill Gates implanting microchips, the prospect of a data-mining company collecting personal information on everyone who gets vaccinated is only going to exacerbate the conspiracy theories and reduce compliance even further.

Edited by Corraleno
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mathnerd

mathnerd

Posted
Posted (edited)

@Pam in CT, thanks for posting that tweet. People like this nice gentleman are the precise reason that I wear double masks and socially distance and never leave my house if it is unnecessary.

Here is another gem: William Shakespeare gets Covid Vaccine! All's well that ends well! Much ado about nothing!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55233021

 

Edited by mathnerd
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Not_a_Number

Not_a_Number

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Choirfarm3 said:

They are concerned about long-term side-effects. I don't completely understand but something about how this vaccine is not like any we've had before and messes with DNA or maybe RNA.

It’s a different kind of vaccine technology, yes. But I don’t understand how it “messes” with RNA or DNA any more than a garden-variety virus. It’s messenger RNA that tells your body what to do. When you get an actual virus, it also uses messenger RNA to tell your body what to do — in fact, what it tells your body to do is NOT what’s optimal for your body, but what’s optimal for it.

Could you figure out the specifics of what they are worried about? I’m not an expert by any means, but DD8 and I have been studying viruses and DNA all year, and I am having trouble understanding this perspective.

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Not_a_Number

Not_a_Number

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Corraleno said:

And it's not just a federal database, it's run by a private data-mining company, Palantir Technologies, whose founder and CEO is Trump mega-donor Peter Thiel. Palantir also has contracts with US intelligence agencies, and they run the covid tracking database that was taken away from CDC and put under direct control of political appointees in HHS. They are requiring detailed personal information that has never been required for vaccines before, which opponents fear may be shared with other government agencies such as ICE — to whom they already provide surveillance and profiling tools. It also raises the possibility that data provided by Palantir on issues like vaccine compliance and adverse effects could be manipulated for political purposes, especially if CDC scientists do not have direct access to the data.

With a significant percentage of the population already saying they won't take the vaccine for crazy reasons like Bill Gates implanting microchips, the prospect of a data-mining company collecting personal information on everyone who gets vaccinated is only going to exacerbate the conspiracy theories and reduce compliance even further.

Aaah!!!

They couldn’t get it together for a contact tracing database (which would have really been a good idea!), and now they are planning to use a database like this?? Come on, now...

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EmilyGF

EmilyGF

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Choirfarm3 said:

I guess this is ok to put here.  Our relative who is a doctor is concerned about the vaccine. Of the surgeons in his office ( 8 of them), none plan to get it for awhile. They are concerned about long-term side-effects. I don't completely understand but something about how this vaccine is not like any we've had before and messes with DNA or maybe RNA. I don't know. All that to say, this relative is very PRO vaccine. He and his children have gotten all vaccines, including the sexual transmitted one for his daughters..can't remember the name of that one right now.  Anyway, just thought that was interesting.  They want to see how it works out over the next few years before they get it.  Will be interesting to see what happens if the hospital requires it. 

Find some microbiologists and virologists and find out what they have to say about it.

Surgeons don't have expertise in this area at all. Don't listen to scientists talking about areas they've only taken maybe one class on, often decades ago.

I checked my "place" in the line in the NY Times graphic yesterday and found out that I'm "3rd" from the end, so all of this is moot for me right now.

Emily

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Ausmumof3

Ausmumof3

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Posted (edited)

Uk has advised people with serious allergies not to take the Pfizer vaccine after two people experienced anaphylactoid reactions occurred on the first day of rollouts.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN28J1D1?__twitter_impression=true

People with known severe allergies had been excluded from the last stage of clinical trials 

Edited by Ausmumof3
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Not_a_Number

Not_a_Number

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

Ok, I'll try. I mainly put this on there to show that everyone getting the vaccine is not a sure thing. These are not anti-mask or anti-vax people. These are professional people. 

I think something like 50% of people are hesitant about the vaccine, so yeah, it's not a sure thing. 

As I keep saying, I'd rather take my chances on the vaccine than the virus, personally. But like @EmilyGF, I'm near the end of the line, so no one will be offering to me any time soon, anyway. 

I have to say, I'd want to know if a surgeon operating on me had skipped the vaccine... I would have opinions about that, that's for sure. I'd much rather my medical team was vaccinated than not. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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Not_a_Number

Not_a_Number

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Uk has advised people with serious allergies not to take the Pfizer vaccine after two people experienced anaphylactoid reactions occurred on the first day of rollouts.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN28J1D1?__twitter_impression=true

People with known severe allergies had been excluded from the last stage of clinical trials 

2 out of how many people, just out of curiosity? 

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ktgrok

ktgrok

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

It’s a different kind of vaccine technology, yes. But I don’t understand how it “messes” with RNA or DNA any more than a garden-variety virus. It’s messenger RNA that tells your body what to do. When you get an actual virus, it also uses messenger RNA to tell your body what to do — in fact, what it tells your body to do is NOT what’s optimal for your body, but what’s optimal for it.

Could you figure out the specifics of what they are worried about? I’m not an expert by any means, but DD8 and I have been studying viruses and DNA all year, and I am having trouble understanding this perspective.

Exactly. A regular old fashioned cold virus also "messes with RNA". That's what viruses do. It can't mess with your DNA, which is totally different. I'd say these surgeons haven't had a biochemistry class in a very long while. I will not ask an immunologist for their opinion on surgical matters, and I'm not asking a surgeon for their opinion on immunology. I mean, it's not like I'm going to ask my podiatrist which chemo treatment protocol is appropriate for a specific cancer, you know?

43 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

I have to say, I'd want to know if a surgeon operating on me had skipped the vaccine... I would have opinions about that, that's for sure. I'd much rather my medical team was vaccinated than not. 

I specifically canceled my endoscopy because I'd rather wait until hospital workers are vaccinated. 

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TCB

TCB

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

Ok, I'll try. I mainly put this on there to show that everyone getting the vaccine is not a sure thing. These are not anti-mask or anti-vax people. These are professional people. 

It has been very interesting to me to see how much I didn’t know about vaccines, and how much most of my HCW colleagues don’t know about them either. Which is fair enough, because not our area of expertise. But what I find difficult to understand is why they then proceed to give advice, which could have life or death consequences, about something they know so little about.

I’ve been trying to educate myself about it as much as I can, and from what I have learned, and from what your surgeon friend said to you, it doesn’t sound like he is up to date on the information.

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ScoutTN

ScoutTN

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think something like 50% of people are hesitant about the vaccine, so yeah, it's not a sure thing. 

As I keep saying, I'd rather take my chances on the vaccine than the virus, personally. But like @EmilyGF, I'm near the end of the line, so no one will be offering to me any time soon, anyway. 

I have to say, I'd want to know if a surgeon operating on me had skipped the vaccine... I would have opinions about that, that's for sure. I'd much rather my medical team was vaccinated than not. 

Surgeons may not have a choice on vax or not, if they want to keep working. I would assume all hospitals will require all staff to get a vax. They may have choices about which one, though.

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ieta_cassiopeia

ieta_cassiopeia

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Uk has advised people with serious allergies not to take the Pfizer vaccine after two people experienced anaphylactoid reactions occurred on the first day of rollouts.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN28J1D1?__twitter_impression=true

People with known severe allergies had been excluded from the last stage of clinical trials 

OK, this is bad. (Although the majority of UK vaccine was already planned to be Oxford/Astrazeneca, which hopefully won't have this type of problem as it works differently). It's two people out of several thousand, which is still fewer than for the flu jab. A fair number of clinicially extremely vulnerable people (i.e. those most likely to suffer if they catch actual COVID) have a history of allergies, and for one person I know, that includes some vaccines. (And for that matter, given that I had to go to hospital after the flu jab, I won't be able to have the Pzifer vaccine either).

Although the people who got it first, apart from hospital workers, were over-80s who were already in hospital or who were invited in after meeting selection criteria (that tweet @Pam in CTcited was one of the latter). My guess is that if any other groups of people shouldn't take this vaccine, we'll know in the next fortnight.

Edited by ieta_cassiopeia
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Pam in CT

Pam in CT

Posted
Posted

re turning over management of vaccination recordkeeping and related data analytics to Palantir

17 hours ago, Corraleno said:

And it's not just a federal database, it's run by a private data-mining company, Palantir Technologies, whose founder and CEO is Trump mega-donor Peter Thiel. Palantir also has contracts with US intelligence agencies, and they run the covid tracking database that was taken away from CDC and put under direct control of political appointees in HHS. They are requiring detailed personal information that has never been required for vaccines before, which opponents fear may be shared with other government agencies such as ICE — to whom they already provide surveillance and profiling tools. It also raises the possibility that data provided by Palantir on issues like vaccine compliance and adverse effects could be manipulated for political purposes, especially if CDC scientists do not have direct access to the data.

With a significant percentage of the population already saying they won't take the vaccine for crazy reasons like Bill Gates implanting microchips, the prospect of a data-mining company collecting personal information on everyone who gets vaccinated is only going to exacerbate the conspiracy theories and reduce compliance even further.

 

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Aaah!!!

They couldn’t get it together for a contact tracing database (which would have really been a good idea!), and now they are planning to use a database like this?? Come on, now...

There is a very sizable segment of America that is perfectly chill with handing over personal / health / behavioral information to just about any private party, so long as it's not The Government.  For reasons I have never really understood, a lot of folks see a very big privacy difference between lists and datamining by credit card companies, social media, and pure datamining players than by government.

Of course if Palantir is contracted by The Government, the distinction is even more porous than it always is. 

But *perhaps* that difference in public perception/ greater acceptance of databanks held by private companies drove the decision to outsource (as opposed to monetizing the work and giving Peter Thiel a very signigicant share price boost...)

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RootAnn

RootAnn

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Uk has advised people with serious allergies not to take the Pfizer vaccine after two people experienced anaphylactoid reactions occurred on the first day of rollouts.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN28J1D1?__twitter_impression=true

People with known severe allergies had been excluded from the last stage of clinical trials 

I hope this is handled correctly by the media but I don't have much hope. We know stuff like this will crop up as well as reactions like lethargy, headache, and arm swelling, especially after dose #2. There will be issues in some groups that were not well represented in the studies. Some people will not be able to get this vaccine. We know this. It is not a surprise. Let's not freak out the population because most will not have these issues. The ones who know to be cautious will take note & proceed cautiously.

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Drama Llama

Drama Llama

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

OK, this is bad. (Although the majority of UK vaccine was already planned to be Oxford/Astrazeneca, which hopefully won't have this type of problem as it works differently). It's two people out of several thousand, which is still fewer than for the flu jab. A fair number of clinicially extremely vulnerable people (i.e. those most likely to suffer if they catch actual COVID) have a history of allergies, and for one person I know, that includes some vaccines. (And for that matter, given that I had to go to hospital after the flu jab, I won't be able to have the Pzifer vaccine either).

Although the people who got it first, apart from hospital workers, were over-80s who were already in hospital or who were invited in after meeting selection criteria (that tweet @Pam in CTcited was one of the latter). My guess is that if any other groups of people shouldn't take this vaccine, we'll know in the next fortnight.

That is bad.  It's also a reason why having several vaccines to choose between will mean that more people can get it.

I'm hoping the numbers will be lower when they're vaccinating the general public, just because the general public is less exposed to medical materials than either HCW's or people over 80 with complex medical conditions.  Allergies develop after repeated exposure to things.  For example, my medical fragile kid had multiple drug allergies, which is pretty common in people who taken as many medications as he did, but rare in the general public.  So, it may be that since we're talking about people who have been exposed to many many medications, either because of their lifespan and history, or because they're handling them at work, that they were more likely to react.  

At least, that's what I'm hoping.  I am not a scientist.  

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Not_a_Number

Not_a_Number

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Normal reaction rate to vaccines seems to be 1-2 per million vaccinations given.

https://www.everydayhealth.com/allergies/vaccine-allergy.aspx

This vaccine seemed to have have rougher reactions in general than the standard vaccines, so it's not super surprising, alas. But this is also not IN ANY WAY a randomly selected population, so it's quite possible it's more like 2 in 10,000 or less for the entire population. We'll have to wait on the data. 

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Pam in CT

Pam in CT

Posted
Posted (edited)

re adverse effects on folks with severe allergies

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Uk has advised people with serious allergies not to take the Pfizer vaccine after two people experienced anaphylactoid reactions occurred on the first day of rollouts.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN28J1D1?__twitter_impression=true

People with known severe allergies had been excluded from the last stage of clinical trials 

 

47 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

It looks like two out of 2000

(of a sample very heavily weighted to the very old).

 

39 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I hope this is handled correctly by the media but I don't have much hope. We know stuff like this will crop up as well as reactions like lethargy, headache, and arm swelling, especially after dose #2. There will be issues in some groups that were not well represented in the studies. Some people will not be able to get this vaccine. We know this. It is not a surprise. Let's not freak out the population because most will not have these issues. The ones who know to be cautious will take note & proceed cautiously.

Exactly.

People with severe allergies are also at increased risk for severely adverse effects from contracting COVID.

Care is warranted. Attention is warranted. Caution is warranted. The development of specific protocols for extended observation of certain people receiving the vaccine is warranted (as my egg-allergic daughter had in her early childhood).

There *will* be some population segments who will not be able to take certain vaccines (it is unbelievably awesome that it looks like there will be several different vaccines, working by different mechanisms, so some of that segment may be able to obtain a different vaccine).  Even with extended observation protocols, there *will* be some populations who will not be able to take any of the vaccines for real medically based reasons.

But this isn't measles: the option we all face isn't risk-of-vaccine vs no-risk-of-vaccine. The option is risk-of-vaccine vs risk-of-COVID.

And the same segments of the population who are genuinely medically at risk of severe side effects are at medical risk of severe COVID effects.

 

 

[I'm neither a medical professional, nor a statistician.  But I am absolutely stymied by the simultaneous tropes that COVID isn't really that bad, held simultaneous to another trope that vaccine side effects are horrific. 

  • If COVID itself is no big deal because 99/100 people who get it, don't die...
  • ...then surely vaccine effects are also no big deal if 1998/2000 people who get the vaccine, don't have severe adverse effects.

Right?  I'm not minimizing the seriousness of anaphalytic shock. The news of yesterday definitely warrants observational protocols at a minimum, and may warrant revising criteria for who gets the mRNA-mechanism vaccines at all.  But I really can't follow the logic that says we're better off taking the odds on COVID itself.

Edited by Pam in CT
eta concentration of elderly in yesterday's sample
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vonfirmath

vonfirmath

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

[I'm neither a medical professional, nor a statistician.  But I am absolutely stymied by the simultaneous tropes that COVID isn't really that bad, held simultaneous to another trope that vaccine side effects are horrific. 

  • If COVID itself is no big deal because 99/100 people who get it, don't die...
  • ...then surely vaccine effects are also no big deal if 1998/2000 people who get the vaccine, don't have severe adverse effects.

Right?  I'm not minimizing the seriousness of anaphalytic shock. The news of yesterday definitely warrants observational protocols at a minimum, and may warrant revising criteria for who gets the mRNA-mechanism vaccines at all.  But I really can't follow the logic that says we're better off taking the odds on COVID itself.

I don't see anyone in this thread saying that we shouldn't give the vaccine/its better off taking the odds on COVID?

 

However, the news there are already 2 serious allergic reactions to this vaccine does dampen what before this seemed like it'd really work well. I'm glad there are other vaccines in the work.

 

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Pam in CT

Pam in CT

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

I don't see anyone in this thread saying that we shouldn't give the vaccine/its better off taking the odds on COVID?

 

However, the news there are already 2 serious allergic reactions to this vaccine does dampen what before this seemed like it'd really work well. I'm glad there are other vaccines in the work.

 

Agreed. That we are as far along as we are, with 3 of them, is really beyond my wildest hopes of last summer.

The next 2-4 months directly ahead are looking pretty lousy -- worse than I'd hoped last summer.  But the prospects of next September are looking substantially better.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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Posted
1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

But *perhaps* that difference in public perception/ greater acceptance of databanks held by private companies drove the decision to outsource (as opposed to monetizing the work and giving Peter Thiel a very signigicant share price boost...)

Nah, the administration needed a quick way to wrest control of covid tracking away from the CDC and put it under the control of HHS, and Palantir already had surveillance contracts with other government entities and could quickly build a covid database (which healthcare providers complained was incredibly cumbersome, difficult to use, and slowed things down rather than streamlining the process). And now they're having them build a vaccine database that collects FAR more personal and detailed information than has ever been collected for a vaccine before. If they were concerned about "public perception" they would be letting the states handle vaccine management — and in fact they have dumped all the logistical planning and implementation tasks on the states, with little help or funding, while retaining the right to collect detailed personal information on every person vaccinated.

I don't think most Americans would have the slightest clue who Palantir are or what they do, and the few who do know that Palantir are running the database presumably also understand that they are under government contract, so I think it will be seen as "government surveillance" by pretty much everyone. Or at least by everyone who understands that their name, birthdate, home address, ethnicity, and vaccine status are being collected by the government. That's quite different from accepting that Facebook knows you like dogs and therefore shows you dogfood ads, or whatever. I wonder if healthcare providers will be obligated to disclose that to each person and get informed consent before vaccinating them, since that information has never been required for a vaccine before and it is not what people would expect under HIPAA. There is a very real concern that one of the functions of this requirement is to assist ICE (which also has contracts with Palantir) in identifying and locating undocumented immigrants. 

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Not_a_Number

Not_a_Number

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11 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

And now they're having them build a vaccine database that collects FAR more personal and detailed information than has ever been collected for a vaccine before. If they were concerned about "public perception" they would be letting the states handle vaccine management — and in fact they have dumped all the logistical planning and implementation tasks on the states, with little help or funding, while retaining the right to collect detailed personal information on every person vaccinated.

Yeah, this is quite suspicious, I have to say. Why exactly do we need this information?? What are we going to do with it?? 

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Pam in CT

Pam in CT

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re when Palantir is more trusted than the Feds...

14 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Nah, the administration needed a quick way to wrest control of covid tracking away from the CDC and put it under the control of HHS, and Palantir already had surveillance contracts with other government entities and could quickly build a covid database (which healthcare providers complained was incredibly cumbersome, difficult to use, and slowed things down rather than streamlining the process). And now they're having them build a vaccine database that collects FAR more personal and detailed information than has ever been collected for a vaccine before. If they were concerned about "public perception" they would be letting the states handle vaccine management — and in fact they have dumped all the logistical planning and implementation tasks on the states, with little help or funding, while retaining the right to collect detailed personal information on every person vaccinated.

I don't think most Americans would have the slightest clue who Palantir are or what they do, and the few who do know that Palantir are running the database presumably also understand that they are under government contract, so I think it will be seen as "government surveillance" by pretty much everyone. Or at least by everyone who understands that their name, birthdate, home address, ethnicity, and vaccine status are being collected by the government. That's quite different from accepting that Facebook knows you like dogs and therefore shows you dogfood ads, or whatever. I wonder if healthcare providers will be obligated to disclose that to each person and get informed consent before vaccinating them, since that information has never been required for a vaccine before and it is not what people would expect under HIPAA. There is a very real concern that one of the functions of this requirement is to assist ICE (which also has contracts with Palantir) in identifying and locating undocumented immigrants. 

I know.

But so long as they're only scooping up undocumented persons for ICE deportation... s'ok, right?  It's not like they're coming for me.

 

 

Curious to see what happens with the Palantir contract going forward.

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wathe

wathe

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2 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Surgeons may not have a choice on vax or not, if they want to keep working. I would assume all hospitals will require all staff to get a vax. They may have choices about which one, though.

I'm quite interested to see if this will actually turn out to be the case here.  I suspect, based on past experience with seasonal flu, that HCW won't be required to vacc.  But will have restrictions on how and when they can work if they don't. 

Flu shots are not required to work at my hospital (though they are strongly encouraged).  Those who choose not to get a flu shot are sent home and not permitted to work if there is a flu outbreak on their unit.  Historically, it has been the nurses' union that has strongly objected to mandatory flu shots and driven the non-mandatory policy, and it is nurses who tend to refuse to get them (much lower flu shot uptake rate than other hospital workers ie MDs, housekeeping, other allied health).  It seems to be a professional culture issue.  That, and hospital nurses' vaccine knowledge tends to be relatively poor (in contrast to some primary care nurses who deal with vaccines all day) It's just not their area of expertise.

It will be interesting to see if this culture changes with the pandemic and the Covid vaccine.  I personally know several ED nurses who got their very first flu shot ever this year, having been flu-shot refusers in the past.  Covid pandemic has caused them to reconsider their stance.  This has been mirrored by a much higher flu shot uptake rate in the general population.

Also, I wouldn't expect surgeons to have especially deep knowledge about vaccines and immunology (or psychiatrists, or radiologists etc).  The more specialized the doctor, the less well-informed they tend to be in non-specialty areas.  That, and doctors are people, who make cognitive errors and do all the same usual dumb human stuff that everyone else does.

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