The Vaccine Thread

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, BaseballandHockey said:

Do you have access to that whole article?  

No, this was just the result of random Googling and seemed to be the same kind of thing that I was finding everywhere. But the whole article would be more useful, I agree. 

Here's a more detailed page: 

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fnd/

This page seems to describe something that's like your description. But I still can't understand whether something would be diagnosed as an FND just because all the tests came back normal or whether this means something else? 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, this was just the result of random Googling and seemed to be the same kind of thing that I was finding everywhere. But the whole article would be more useful, I agree. 

Here's a more detailed page: 

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fnd/

This page seems to describe something that's like your description. But I still can't understand whether something would be diagnosed as an FND just because all the tests came back normal or whether this means something else? 

That's the same link I gave you. 

It's got some pretty specific examples of how a FND presents on exam. For example, it talked about how someone might not be able to intentionally move their leg in a certain way, but then the doctor can create that same movement by asking them to do something else.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

That's the same link I gave you. 

It's got some pretty specific examples of how a FND presents on exam. For example, it talked about how someone might not be able to intentionally move their leg in a certain way, but then the doctor can create that same movement by asking them to do something else.  

Yes, I just realized that. I'd seen it before. 

I guess I don't have as much faith in tests as everyone else. What they mean by a structural disease process is simply something they can measure. We can't measure everything yet. So the fact that they aren't measuring whatever it is causing the issue doesn't mean nothing is causing it, or that it's impossible something related specifically to vaccine ingredients is causing it. 

I also have a fair amount of experience going to neurologists, I have to say. I've had headaches my whole life that in no way show up on any tests I've had. I've had other persistent neurological symptoms that no one's been able to find any reason for. I'm very well aware of the limitations of medical science when it comes to neurological stuff. 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I just realized that. I'd seen it before. 

I guess I don't have as much faith in tests as everyone else. What they mean by a structural disease process is simply something they can measure. We can't measure everything yet. So the fact that they aren't measuring whatever it is causing the issue doesn't mean nothing is causing it, or that it's impossible something related specifically to vaccine ingredients is causing it. 

I also have a fair amount of experience going to neurologists, I have to say. I've had headaches my whole life that in no way show up on any tests I've had. I've had other persistent neurological symptoms that no one's been able to find any reason for. I'm very well aware of the limitations of medical science when it comes to neurological stuff. 

Have neurologists told you your headaches or other symptoms were functional?

I think there are lots of ways that scientists and medical professionals investigate things that may or may not be vaccine side effects.  They look at rates of certain symptoms in groups that have a placebo, or the general population.  They compare reactions to reactions to other types of stimuli (e.g. if people faint equally often with blood draws and vaccines, that might be a sign that they aren't reacting to an ingredient in the vaccine).  They look for patterns who gets the symptoms (e.g. if people who communicate together on social media, are more likely to get the same symptom than other people, that might be a clue).  They look at the interventions that work and don't work.  (e.g. if your seizures are helped by CBT, but not by anticonvulsants, that could be clue).  It's not just "Oh we don't know" and throw their hands in the air.

Obviously, they should continue to investigate.  FND Is something that desperately needs more research.  But if the medical establishment is saying "this is this known thing, we have evidence" and antivax conspiracy theorists are saying "oh no, it's probably something else", then I'm going to go with the medical establishment.  

[TravelingChris]

On 8/10/2021 at 5:50 PM, Faith-manor said:

I agree completely. You join, and basically the military owns you for the duration of the contract. Don't like it! Don't join. They have always required a ton of vaccines due to international travel, less than hygienic living conditions. This is not news. And they do have the legal right to change things during the duration of the contract. It is disingenuous to join the "big bad gubmint" military force in order to get free tuition and room and board in the ROTC dorms, and then turn around and winge about that same government having the audacity to require a new vaccine to protect the troops or the civilians the troops come in contact with, etc. Doesn't do us a hell of a lot of good to have covid ravaging national guard bases when the next big natural disaster hits or overwhelming V.A.hospitals.

Ugh.

Yep.  We knew very well what dh signed up for when he said he would go to OTS and become a 2nd Lt, including if he didn't make it, he would enter as an E5 and still have a time commitment of a few years.  

And US military is not a 40 hour a week job, tio I think dh hardly ever had only 40 hour week- more like 50 to 60.

And yes, lots of vaccines too.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Have neurologists told you your headaches or other symptoms were functional?

No. They just told me they had no clue. I didn't bug them that much for a diagnosis after they couldn't find anything physical.

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

No. They just told me they had no clue. I didn't bug them that much for a diagnosis after they couldn't find anything physical.

So, to me that doesn't support the idea that doctors are giving out the diagnosis of FND because they just don't understand.  It supports the opposite idea.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, to me that doesn't support the idea that doctors are giving out the diagnosis of FND because they just don't understand.  It supports the opposite idea.  

I have no idea when people give the FND diagnosis. I'm just going off of what I'm reading in articles... 

[KSera]

41 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I dunno... people with long COVID also seem to have normal MRIs and people can't figure out what's wrong with them via tests. It might just mean our tests aren't measuring the right stuff, you know? 

There are some very specific differences that can indicate something is a functional disorder. Particularly findings that objectively show that the experienced symptom disappears under conditions when the patient doesn’t realize that their body would respond in a particular way if a particular problem was what was going on. Like the muscle strength test described in the other link. Without going into too much detail, this is an objective test. It’s measured in one way, where it’s very clear what muscle is being tested, and the muscle appears weak. The very same muscle is then tested in another way, which someone without a deeper understanding of the musculoskeletal system would not realize was testing the same muscle and in that case it appears fine. That’s different than the doctor deciding that because they don’t know what it is, it’s functional. It’s actually being shown through testing that something else is going on. It’s not a lack of any tests indicating anything, it’s that frequently there are specific tests actually showing that this is a functional disorder. Not always, I’m sure, but it’s an actual thing. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

There are some very specific differences that can indicate something is a functional disorder. Particularly findings that objectively show that the experienced symptom disappears under conditions when the patient doesn’t realize that their body would respond in a particular way if a particular problem was what was going on. Like the muscle strength test described in the other link. Without going into too much detail, this is an objective test. It’s measured in one way, where it’s very clear what muscle is being tested, and the muscle appears weak. The very same muscle is then tested in another way, which someone without a deeper understanding of the musculoskeletal system would not realize was testing the same muscle and in that case it appears fine. That’s different than the doctor deciding that because they don’t know what it is, it’s functional. It’s actually being shown through testing that something else is going on. It’s not a lack of any tests indicating anything, it’s that frequently there are specific tests actually showing that this is a functional disorder. Not always, I’m sure, but it’s an actual thing. 

Hmmm, OK. But why couldn't that kind of presentation be caused by something specific? Because it's triggered specifically by knowledge? 

[Kakids]

2 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Why would big clinics be different in this way? 

Because all they are interested in is getting people through the lines as quickly as possible. A few extra seconds for a draw back adds time per patient.

2 hours ago, BeachGal said:

Yes, but when Covid vaccines were first rolling out, they were advised against doing so. I would think that advice has changed in the meantime but I don’t know.

The Oxford study was done on mice so hard to say for sure if it is what caused myocarditis in humans. It’s given in the deltoid and so shouldn’t cause a problem. A mystery for sure but very interesting.

Why would they have been advised against a draw back on the syringe  when vaccines were first rolled out? Was there a rational given?

[Corraleno]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmm, OK. But why couldn't that kind of presentation be caused by something specific? Because it's triggered specifically by knowledge? 

Weakness on one side of the body can be caused by many specific things, including stroke, MS, or brain injury. But if someone with one of those conditions is asked by a neurologist to run, they would not suddenly be able to run perfectly fine, with no weakness on that side.

Neither of the papers referred to in that article are saying that covid vaccines never cause any kind of neurological issues, or that all cases that present like the ones in the papers are FND. They are saying "here are a couple of specific cases we have seen that appear to be functional/psychogenic reactions, and HCPs should be aware of this possibility so they can treat it effectively."

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Corraleno said:

Weakness on one side of the body can be caused by many specific things, including stroke, MS, or brain injury. But if someone with one of those conditions is asked by a neurologist to run, they would not suddenly be able to run perfectly fine, with no weakness on that side.

Neither of the papers referred to in that article are saying that covid vaccines never cause any kind of neurological issues, or that all cases that present like the ones in the papers are FND. They are saying "here are a couple of specific cases we have seen that appear to be functional/psychogenic reactions, and HCPs should be aware of this possibility so they can treat it effectively."

Got it. I think I understand now what the point being made is 🙂. Thanks! 

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I dunno... people with long COVID also seem to have normal MRIs and people can't figure out what's wrong with them via tests. It might just mean our tests aren't measuring the right stuff, you know? 

The answer was on Science Daily sometime last week. Long Covid people have problematic  clotting factors.  I don’t remember the details but I’m sure if you go to their site you’ll find it. 

[Corraleno]

Here's a summary of the blood clotting study:

"New research finds that people with long COVID show higher measures of blood clotting, which could help explain persistent symptoms, including reduced physical fitness and fatigue. The study, led by researchers from RCSI University of Medicine and Health Sciences in Dublin, was published this month in the Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis.

For the study, 50 people were reviewed for an average of 68 days after developing COVID-19 to better understand the role blood clotting might play in long-hauler symptoms. Although clotting markers were significantly higher in those hospitalized due to their initial illness, researchers found that even patients who remained at home had high clotting markers. 

It’s still too early to know what the correlation is between blood clotting and long COVID, or what the causes and effects of these higher clotting factors are, according to Dr. Teresa Murray Amato, the director of emergency medicine at Long Island Jewish Forest Hills New York. “However, it is important to try and make these connections,” she said, “to better understand how to counsel patients who are suffering long after their initial COVID infection.”

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-is-behind-long-covid-it-could-start-with-blood-clotting-issues#Long-COVID-changing-with-new-variants

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Here's a summary of the blood clotting study:

"New research finds that people with long COVID show higher measures of blood clotting, which could help explain persistent symptoms, including reduced physical fitness and fatigue. The study, led by researchers from RCSI University of Medicine and Health Sciences in Dublin, was published this month in the Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis.

For the study, 50 people were reviewed for an average of 68 days after developing COVID-19 to better understand the role blood clotting might play in long-hauler symptoms. Although clotting markers were significantly higher in those hospitalized due to their initial illness, researchers found that even patients who remained at home had high clotting markers. 

It’s still too early to know what the correlation is between blood clotting and long COVID, or what the causes and effects of these higher clotting factors are, according to Dr. Teresa Murray Amato, the director of emergency medicine at Long Island Jewish Forest Hills New York. “However, it is important to try and make these connections,” she said, “to better understand how to counsel patients who are suffering long after their initial COVID infection.”

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-is-behind-long-covid-it-could-start-with-blood-clotting-issues#Long-COVID-changing-with-new-variants

Reaffirming the idea that this is at it's heart more vascular disease than a respiratory one. 

[Katy]

Here’s a link to the article I mentioned: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/08/210816125717.htm

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Here's a summary of the blood clotting study:

"New research finds that people with long COVID show higher measures of blood clotting, which could help explain persistent symptoms, including reduced physical fitness and fatigue. The study, led by researchers from RCSI University of Medicine and Health Sciences in Dublin, was published this month in the Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis.

For the study, 50 people were reviewed for an average of 68 days after developing COVID-19 to better understand the role blood clotting might play in long-hauler symptoms. Although clotting markers were significantly higher in those hospitalized due to their initial illness, researchers found that even patients who remained at home had high clotting markers. 

It’s still too early to know what the correlation is between blood clotting and long COVID, or what the causes and effects of these higher clotting factors are, according to Dr. Teresa Murray Amato, the director of emergency medicine at Long Island Jewish Forest Hills New York. “However, it is important to try and make these connections,” she said, “to better understand how to counsel patients who are suffering long after their initial COVID infection.”

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-is-behind-long-covid-it-could-start-with-blood-clotting-issues#Long-COVID-changing-with-new-variants

I wonder if this will lead to some screening about how is at risk for long covid. Clotting issues run in my family, and we only sort of have answers about them (hematologist won't get to the bottom of it because the people who've actually had clots are on blood thinners now, and apparently those of us who haven't had them yet don't deserve to know if we're at risk).

[kbutton]

So, some doctor friend of a friend is saying weird stuff on FB about the vaccines...some valid concerns mixed with weirdness. 

What do you say to this? I am too tired and stressed out right now to formulate complete thoughts.

Quote

This is not truly a vaccine. It is a biologic agent that uses mRNA to program your cells to make spike protein.

To me, that sounds just like...a vaccine. I realize the mRNA vaccines have slightly different mechanisms, but is this really so different from what previous vaccines do? Or is it that this makes your body do more of the work in manufacturing a protein vs. being supplied a protein to recognize?

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/vaccine-types

On a side note, I don't understand why people criticizing mRNA vaccines seem to conveniently leave out the fact that J and J is also available and is not an mRNA vaccine. 

 

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, kbutton said:

So, some doctor friend of a friend is saying weird stuff on FB about the vaccines...some valid concerns mixed with weirdness. 

What do you say to this? I am too tired and stressed out right now to formulate complete thoughts.

To me, that sounds just like...a vaccine. I realize the mRNA vaccines have slightly different mechanisms, but is this really so different from what previous vaccines do? Or is it that this makes your body do more of the work in manufacturing a protein vs. being supplied a protein to recognize?

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/vaccine-types

On a side note, I don't understand why people criticizing mRNA vaccines seem to conveniently leave out the fact that J and J is also available and is not an mRNA vaccine. 

 

It's a vaccine. The idea that it isn't is absurd. 

[BeachGal]

3 hours ago, Kakids said:

Why would they have been advised against a draw back on the syringe  when vaccines were first rolled out? Was there a rational given?

I don’t know the reasoning. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[Acadie]

10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

So, some doctor friend of a friend is saying weird stuff on FB about the vaccines...some valid concerns mixed with weirdness. 

What do you say to this? I am too tired and stressed out right now to formulate complete thoughts.

To me, that sounds just like...a vaccine.

Someone on NextDoor was just trying to argue the vaccines are not vaccines because they aren't 100% effective.

Although they're employing the "not-a-vaccine" trick in different ways, I wonder if this is the latest talking point advanced by Russian bots or whatever. Hella creepy the way I keep seeing the same language and (non)logic pop up in different places, around the same time. 

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It's a vaccine. The idea that it isn't is absurd. 

Sure, but is the mechanism they're quibbling about unique to mRNA vaccines, or is it applicable to other vaccines? 

Do other vaccines cause our bodies to specifically make proteins, or are the proteins usually supplied by the vaccine?

I am too tired to really figure this out right now.

 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Acadie said:

Someone on NextDoor was just trying to argue the vaccines are not vaccines because they aren't 100% effective.

Although they're employing the "not-a-vaccine" trick in different ways, I wonder if this is the latest talking point advanced by Russian bots or whatever. Hella creepy the way I keep seeing the same language and (non)logic pop up in different places, around the same time. 

Yup, I posted a few weeks ago about how now they were putting vaccine in quotes. Saying it isn't a vaccine, just a substance that tricks your body into making antibodies. (you know, the freaking definition of a vaccine!!!)

I've had to explain to more than one person that no, vaccines are not 100 percent, that is not new, etc. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, kbutton said:

Sure, but is the mechanism they're quibbling about unique to mRNA vaccines, or is it applicable to other vaccines? 

Do other vaccines cause our bodies to specifically make proteins, or are the proteins usually supplied by the vaccine?

I am too tired to really figure this out right now.

 

mRNa vaccines are a different type of vaccine, but still a vaccine. There are all sorts of types, from vector borne using recombinant DNA to live to attenuated, etc etc. 

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, Acadie said:

Someone on NextDoor was just trying to argue the vaccines are not vaccines because they aren't 100% effective.

Although they're employing the "not-a-vaccine" trick in different ways, I wonder if this is the latest talking point advanced by Russian bots or whatever. Hella creepy the way I keep seeing the same language and (non)logic pop up in different places, around the same time. 

It's not new around here, but it is common to hear this.

Yeah, when people all start saying the same thing all at once with basically the same wording, I don't know why people don't smell a rat and go looking for it.

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

mRNa vaccines are a different type of vaccine, but still a vaccine. There are all sorts of types, from vector borne using recombinant DNA to live to attenuated, etc etc. 

I think this is what I wanted to know...are antibodies proteins?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody   Apparently, they are.

[Corraleno]

This is part of the false narrative that "mRNA vaccines aren't vaccines, they're gene therapy." I've seen that claim, from so-called "medical experts" on a number of anti-vax sites. Let me see if I can find one

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This is part of the false narrative that "mRNA vaccines aren't vaccines, they're gene therapy." I've seen that claim, from so-called "medical experts" on a number of anti-vax sites. Let me see if I can find one

Yes, I was just trying to find out if the mechanism that makes mRNA vaccines unique is that they make you form proteins. I really didn't know off the cuff if antibodies were a kind of protein or something else, and I wasn't googling the right combo of words to come up with an answer. It was jumbled in my head. 

I have blocked a lot of crap on FB, but I was blindsided from sources that I didn't realize were going to be radical and militant all of a sudden. They were people who'd mostly been quiet. It's really been a draining day.

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I think this is what I wanted to know...are antibodies proteins?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody  Apparently, they are.

they are, but I think what he is getting at is that instead of injecting you with a protein and then you make antibodies against it, they inject you with instructions to make a protein (the antigen) and then you make antibodies against it. It's an extra step, but still a vaccine. 

In vector vaccines you inject genetically modified virus into a person, there are all sorts of types. 

[kbutton]

Just now, ktgrok said:

they are, but I think what he is getting at is that instead of injecting you with a protein and then you make antibodies against it, they inject you with instructions to make a protein (the antigen) and then you make antibodies against it. It's an extra step, but still a vaccine. 

In vector vaccines you inject genetically modified virus into a person, there are all sorts of types. 

That is what I thought, but I wasn't sure I had it all going in the right direction, plus, just didn't know off the top of my head for sure that antibodies were proteins.

[Corraleno]

Ok this is from a podcast on the Weston Price Foundation website (I'm not going to link the website and drive traffic there). It's totally bonkers:

"I have friends who’ve gotten one of the new COVID-19 vaccines and you do too. These are the fastest developed vaccines in all of our medical history and many people are lining up to get them as soon as possible. What are they made of? What would they do to us? Why are they being promoted and by whom? This is episode 292 and our guest is Dr. David Martin. He received his Undergrad degree from Goshen College, Master’s of Science from Ball State University and Doctorate from the University of Virginia. He is an innovator, a professor, and a man with an extensive resume of accomplishments.

With David, we focused on the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines. He goes over the major issues surrounding them. He reviews the mRNA technology and explains how it is gene therapy, not a vaccine and our usual understanding of the word. He reviews the problems with the PCR tests and even helps us understand our broader state of emergency. Finally, he explains how fear on a subconscious level can make us resist the truth.

David: "First of all, there is no vaccine that is in development or contemplated that is a vaccine against the SARS-CoV-2 virus. That doesn’t exist. That hasn’t been developed. It isn’t even, in 2021, in contemplation. It’s one of the unfortunate things about what’s going on in the propaganda war, which is in February, the World Health Organization made it abundantly clear that SARS-CoV-2 or the virus and COVID-19, which is a series of clinical presentations of illness were two distinct things.

COVID 19 is not a disease. It is a series of clinical symptoms. It is a giant umbrella of things associated with what used to be associated with influenza and with other febrile diseases. The problem that we have is that in February, the World Health Organization was clear in stating that there should not be a conflation between the two of these things. One is a virus, in their definition and one is a set of clinical symptoms. The illusion in February was that SARS-CoV-2 caused COVID-19. The problem with that definition and with the expectation is that the majority of people who test positive using the RT-PCR method for testing, for fragments of what is associated with SARS-CoV-2 are not ill at all. The illusion that the virus causes a disease fell apart. That’s the reason why they invented the term asymptomatic carrier.

The causal link that the media, the CDC made and the COVID tracker, which is the collaboration between the Bloomberg Foundation, the Gates Foundation, Zuckerberg Foundation and others, the official numbers that we get traped across the screens every morning of our computers in our televisions, those numbers are willfully lying. They have been willfully lying since the inception of this. There is not a causal link between these things that have never been established. It has never even been close to established. We have a situation where the illusion of the problem is that people say, “I don’t want to get COVID-19.” What they mean is they don’t want to get infected with a virus. The problem is those two things are not related to each other.

A viral infection hasn’t been documented in the majority of what is called cases. There is no basis for that conflation other than the manipulation of the public. That’s the first half of the problem. The second half of the problem is that what is being touted as a vaccination, which as you well know when somebody says the word vaccination, the public understanding is that you are being treated with an attenuated or alive virus or a fragment of an attenuated and that the treatment is meant to keep you from getting an infection and it is meant to keep you from transmitting the infection that vaccine in the common definition of a vaccine is meant to do.

The problem is that in the case of Moderna and Pfizer, this is not a vaccine. This is gene therapy. It’s a chemotherapy agent that is gene therapy. It is not a vaccine. What is this doing? It’s sending a strand of synthetic RNA into the human being and is invoking within the human being, the creation of the S1 spike protein, which is a pathogen. It’s a toxin inside of human beings. This is not only not keeping you from getting sick, it’s making your body produce the thing that makes you sick.

This is a public manipulation of misrepresentation of clinical treatment. It’s not a vaccination. It’s not a prohibiting infection. It’s not a prohibiting transmission device. It’s a means by which your body is conscripted to make the toxin that then allegedly your body somehow gets used to dealing with, but unlike a vaccine, which is to trigger the immune response, this is to trigger the creation of the toxin.

Their clinical trial didn’t include any of that as even a possibility within the clinical trial. The clinical trial did not measure the presence or absence of a virus or a virus fragment. The clinical trial did not measure the possibility of transmission suppression, the clinical trial didn’t measure any of those things. This is a case of misrepresentation of technology and it’s done exclusively so that they can get themselves under the umbrella of public health laws that exploit vaccination.

... A human being is going to be potentially exposed to unclassified, both short-term and long-term risks of altering their RNA and DNA from exposure to this gene therapy.

... This is not prophylactic. This is not helping us. We’re being told to take a treatment for a disease we don’t have and most likely will not have. We’re being told that using careful marketing manipulation and propaganda, calling these things vaccines for public health.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Corraleno

[ktgrok]

Oh dear lord. 

So it is terrible for the body to make the spike protein, because it is toxic. But that's what vaccines DO! They use a bit of, or damaged form of, or partial form (like a spike protein) of a virus and inject you with it - that is what vaccines DO!!!!

And saying we have no link between SARS CO V2 and Covid?!?! That the idea of presymptomatic or asymptomatic carrier was just invented for this virus????

[wathe]

9 hours ago, ktgrok said:

This is why you are supposed to draw back on the syringe first, to be sure you don't get a flash of blood. but not everyone does, especially in big clinics I bet. 

Not anymore.  Aspiration during IM vaccination  (unless in the dorsogluteal muscle to be sure you aren't in a particular nearby artery) is not standard of care. Evidence suggests it's not necessary. There are loads of literature reviews on the topic Abstract of one, full text of another, excerpt: 

"Findings of guidelines and recommendations

Vaccination: According to the Red Book ⁵⁷ published by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), there is no need of aspiration before injection of vaccines or toxoids. Similarly, the US CDC guidelines for administration of vaccines ⁶⁵ have clear instructions not to aspirate before injection (for both IM and SC routes), as no large vessels exist in the recommended injection site. No recommendations were found in the Pink Book ⁸¹ from the CDC in this regard".

There aren't any large veins or arteries in deltoid injection site.

 If you were to somehow hit one, you will get blood flash into your syringe, no need to aspirate

Aspiration makes injections more painful, and the two-handed technique makes tissue trauma more likely

Some safety syringes make aspiration impossible

Evidence suggests that aspiration during vaccination doesn't help, and might harm.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by wathe

[Corraleno]

21 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

And saying we have no link between SARS CO V2 and Covid?!?! That the idea of presymptomatic or asymptomatic carrier was just invented for this virus????

He also claims that PCR tests are fake, most "covid cases" are really just the flu, and the government is creating a fake "state of emergency" so they can scare people into accepting gene therapy that will change their DNA:

"There’s nothing about taking a PCR test that does anything other than reinforce a propaganda narrative. It doesn’t tell you anything. The reason why we’re not doing influenza testing is that we don’t want to admit the fact that the majority of people who are in hospital, who are sick and who are dying are experiencing exactly the same thing that’s happened every year, which is influenza-like, flu-like and pneumonia-like illness. In many cases, when someone has immune compromise or other comorbidities leads to fatalities. It’s a sad reality that that happens but it is part of the human experience that it happens. The fact is that a PCR test is not going to make or not make a confirmed diagnosis of anything because PCR tests cannot confirm a diagnosis.

The only reason we are using PCR tests is that governors and the Department of Health and Human Services are maintaining a state of emergency. The second that that state of emergency is lifted in any state or in the country, the PCR test won’t be allowed to be used. ... The gene therapy that Moderna and Pfizer are doing, both of those would be suspended immediately if the state of emergency got lifted. People don’t understand that if you lift the state of emergency, the whole house of cards falls.

I will not allow my body to be invaded with a thing that is been developed in an unethical and illegal way. I am not going to let anybody have the opportunity to manipulate my genetic code."

[wathe]

CDC guideline on vaccine administration:

 Aspiration before injection of vaccines or toxoids (i.e., pulling back on the syringe plunger after needle insertion but before injection) is not necessary because no large blood vessels are present at the recommended injection sites, and a process that includes aspiration might be more painful for infants (22).

 

Note that this quote is pulled from a section about IM vaccine administration for all ages, not just infants.

Edited August 23, 2021 by wathe

[kbutton]

Quote

They have been willfully lying since the inception of this.

That is the pot calling the kettle black, lol! What utter hogwash. Some of these people had information about the badness of vaccines before the vaccines were even ready or being tested, but we're supposed to think the medical people are lying. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Acadie said:

Although they're employing the "not-a-vaccine" trick in different ways, I wonder if this is the latest talking point advanced by Russian bots or whatever. Hella creepy the way I keep seeing the same language and (non)logic pop up in different places, around the same time. 

This keeps happening with various nonsense-y Covid things. This particular one about it not being a vaccine was popular quite a few months back, and seems to be coming back around.  The one that seems biggest right now is the big “natural immunity” craze. The idea that it’s better to catch Covid and get immunity that way, rather than by taking the vaccine, never mind that in doing so, you will have just put yourself at tremendous risk for serious illness and/or death. That part of the equation is conveniently left out.

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Ok this is from a podcast on the Weston Price Foundation website (I'm not going to link the website and drive traffic there). It's totally bonkers:

That is all so totally bonkers that I’m not even going to quote it respond to all the individual hogwash statements and flat out ridiculous bull*. And to think I had their nutrition book when I was in the pregnancy and birthing stage of life 😳. 

[TravelingChris]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:45 PM, Spryte said:

If one is immune compromised, but not severely so (not a transplant patient, cancer patient, etc, but immune compromised due to chronic health issues and the meds needed for management), is it possible to get tested to see if the vaccine induced antibodies are present?  Which test is that? 
 

I don’t know where DS and I fall, we are both considered immune compromised, but not severely so.  I take corticosteroids every day. My conditions are considered very rare, so finding them on a list is impossible. I did not think we were eligible for a shot now, but waiting until Dec, our 8 month mark, makes me nervous as well.

WHat is your dose of corticosteroids?  The immune compromised means moderate to severe, not just severe.  You probably are eligible.

[TravelingChris]

11 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Well I think we could ask why we are assuming these are FND’s, but assuming that that diagnosis is correct, then they aren’t caused by physical effects because something caused by physical effects is by definition not a FND.

So many of us with autoimmune diseases were told it was all in our heads before our bodies made enough antibodies for the tests to pick up.  Which is why I refuse to have doctors who decide how bad I am feeling based only on labs.  Lab tests lag on symptoms.  I think it is very possible that some people being diagnosed with FTD  actually do have a disease, just not at the point that labs can find yet. 

[TravelingChris]

10 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I dunno... people with long COVID also seem to have normal MRIs and people can't figure out what's wrong with them via tests. It might just mean our tests aren't measuring the right stuff, you know? 

Exactly.  My brain fog, which is caused by inflammation, is not seen on the MRI or CATSCAN.  It is easily seen by how many animals I can name in a minute.  On a good day, I name something like 50,  Medium day-23 or so, Bad day=maybe 15 or less.   And yes, often times my inflammation is seen on lab tests but I am not having those tests every day and night and even if my labs are fine doesn't mean that I have no issues.  I can get inflammatory issues very quickly.

[TravelingChris]

6 hours ago, kbutton said:

I wonder if this will lead to some screening about how is at risk for long covid. Clotting issues run in my family, and we only sort of have answers about them (hematologist won't get to the bottom of it because the people who've actually had clots are on blood thinners now, and apparently those of us who haven't had them yet don't deserve to know if we're at risk).

That is totally ridiculous.  I have Factor V Leiden.  When I was diagnosed with it in 2010 and got put on blood thinners, I talked with my dds' pediatrician and both girls were tested. My older one has it too and will need to be on Heparin (or if allergic like me, on Arixtra) if she gets pregnant.  Factor V L:eiden is the most common genetic cause for blood clotting and 8 or 9% pf European ancestry people are affected.  

[Laura Corin]

On 8/21/2021 at 2:13 AM, popmom said:

on the subject of creating new variants...

In minutes from its July 7 meeting, SAGE scientists wrote that "the combination of high prevalence and high levels of vaccination creates the conditions in which an immune escape variant is most likely to emerge." It said at the time that "the likelihood of this happening is unknown, but such a variant would present a significant risk both in the UK and internationally."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/01/health/uk-scientists-covid-variant-beat-vaccines-intl/

Note, 'They recommend that authorities continue to reduce virus transmission as much as possible to reduce the chance of a new, vaccine-resistant variant.'

So we should all be reducing transmission by distancing, masking, avoiding congregating, ETA whether we are vaccinated or not.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Kanin]

8 hours ago, Corraleno said:

He also claims that PCR tests are fake, most "covid cases" are really just the flu, and the government is creating a fake "state of emergency" so they can scare people into accepting gene therapy that will change their DNA:

"There’s nothing about taking a PCR test that does anything other than reinforce a propaganda narrative. It doesn’t tell you anything. The reason why we’re not doing influenza testing is that we don’t want to admit the fact that the majority of people who are in hospital, who are sick and who are dying are experiencing exactly the same thing that’s happened every year, which is influenza-like, flu-like and pneumonia-like illness. In many cases, when someone has immune compromise or other comorbidities leads to fatalities. It’s a sad reality that that happens but it is part of the human experience that it happens. The fact is that a PCR test is not going to make or not make a confirmed diagnosis of anything because PCR tests cannot confirm a diagnosis.

The only reason we are using PCR tests is that governors and the Department of Health and Human Services are maintaining a state of emergency. The second that that state of emergency is lifted in any state or in the country, the PCR test won’t be allowed to be used. ... The gene therapy that Moderna and Pfizer are doing, both of those would be suspended immediately if the state of emergency got lifted. People don’t understand that if you lift the state of emergency, the whole house of cards falls.

I will not allow my body to be invaded with a thing that is been developed in an unethical and illegal way. I am not going to let anybody have the opportunity to manipulate my genetic code."

 

 

This is the kind of thing some of DH’s relatives say. Ugh. 

[whitestavern]

9 hours ago, Corraleno said:

This is part of the false narrative that "mRNA vaccines aren't vaccines, they're gene therapy." I've seen that claim, from so-called "medical experts" on a number of anti-vax sites. Let me see if I can find one

Well, they've been called gene therapy on scientific sites, such as this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33772572/

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, wathe said:

Not anymore.  Aspiration during IM vaccination  (unless in the dorsogluteal muscle to be sure you aren't in a particular nearby artery) is not standard of care. Evidence suggests it's not necessary. There are loads of literature reviews on the topic Abstract of one, full text of another, excerpt: 

"Findings of guidelines and recommendations

Vaccination: According to the Red Book ⁵⁷ published by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), there is no need of aspiration before injection of vaccines or toxoids. Similarly, the US CDC guidelines for administration of vaccines ⁶⁵ have clear instructions not to aspirate before injection (for both IM and SC routes), as no large vessels exist in the recommended injection site. No recommendations were found in the Pink Book ⁸¹ from the CDC in this regard".

There aren't any large veins or arteries in deltoid injection site.

 If you were to somehow hit one, you will get blood flash into your syringe, no need to aspirate

Aspiration makes injections more painful, and the two-handed technique makes tissue trauma more likely

Some safety syringes make aspiration impossible

Evidence suggests that aspiration during vaccination doesn't help, and might harm.

 

 

Ah!  I shouldn't have spoken up, given my experience is in IM injections in dogs, and we DO use the gluteal muscle for those. That explains the difference. 

4 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Exactly.  My brain fog, which is caused by inflammation, is not seen on the MRI or CATSCAN.  It is easily seen by how many animals I can name in a minute.  On a good day, I name something like 50,  Medium day-23 or so, Bad day=maybe 15 or less.   And yes, often times my inflammation is seen on lab tests but I am not having those tests every day and night and even if my labs are fine doesn't mean that I have no issues.  I can get inflammatory issues very quickly.

Right, but say, if you cold only name 15 animals when talking to the Doctor, but when talking to the receptionist before and after the appointment could easily name 50, and this is a repeatable phenomenon (as in isn't transient but actually based on who you are talking to) that would point to a functional disorder. Not just if it is or isn't something that can be seen on labs/scans but if something is happening that defies biology itself. 

 

[ktgrok]

26 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

Well, they've been called gene therapy on scientific sites, such as this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33772572/

Nope. That says they utilize a technology that has been used in gene therapy. But says they are a vaccine.

[Danae]

24 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

Well, they've been called gene therapy on scientific sites, such as this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33772572/

That says they use technology that was developed for use in gene therapy. Not that the vaccines are gene therapy.

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Note, 'They recommend that authorities continue to reduce virus transmission as much as possible to reduce the chance of a new, vaccine-resistant variant.'

So we should all be reducing transmission by distancing, masking, avoiding congregating, ETA whether we are vaccinated or not.

Seen on the street in my local town today.

[Not_a_Number]

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

He also claims that PCR tests are fake, most "covid cases" are really just the flu, and the government is creating a fake "state of emergency" so they can scare people into accepting gene therapy that will change their DNA:

"There’s nothing about taking a PCR test that does anything other than reinforce a propaganda narrative. It doesn’t tell you anything. The reason why we’re not doing influenza testing is that we don’t want to admit the fact that the majority of people who are in hospital, who are sick and who are dying are experiencing exactly the same thing that’s happened every year, which is influenza-like, flu-like and pneumonia-like illness. In many cases, when someone has immune compromise or other comorbidities leads to fatalities. It’s a sad reality that that happens but it is part of the human experience that it happens. The fact is that a PCR test is not going to make or not make a confirmed diagnosis of anything because PCR tests cannot confirm a diagnosis.

The only reason we are using PCR tests is that governors and the Department of Health and Human Services are maintaining a state of emergency. The second that that state of emergency is lifted in any state or in the country, the PCR test won’t be allowed to be used. ... The gene therapy that Moderna and Pfizer are doing, both of those would be suspended immediately if the state of emergency got lifted. People don’t understand that if you lift the state of emergency, the whole house of cards falls.

I will not allow my body to be invaded with a thing that is been developed in an unethical and illegal way. I am not going to let anybody have the opportunity to manipulate my genetic code."

This is like stepping into another universe. Except that apparently a LOT of people think they live there!