The Vaccine Thread

[teachermom2834]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

I keep seeing these charts from different hospital dashboards, showing the breakdown of vaccinated and unvaccinated patients and I can't for the life of me figure out why there are still people saying things like "we don't even know if the vaccines work" (saw that again tonight). I'm curious if they just aren't looking at the information themself, so really don't know that overwhelmingly, most people in the hospital are unvaccinated?

 

 

The people I know saying the vaccine doesn’t work say all these reports are lies. They don’t believe any such published info and say their doctor and nurse friends tell them the opposite- that it is the vaccinated filling the hospitals not the unvaccinated and all the reporting is lies. I don’t know what you do with that. 
 

I followed a link of an acquaintance on FB for someone very sick and in the hospital for a month now. Not only unvaxxed but this person’s loved one posting that the doctors and nurses were actively making him sicker. That they were giving him meds to make him sicker while denying invermectin. This person proclaiming everyone was in cahoots to push this narrative by intentionally prolonging this man’s illness. So what do you do with that? 
 

 

[Faith-manor]

18 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

The people I know saying the vaccine doesn’t work say all these reports are lies. They don’t believe any such published info and say their doctor and nurse friends tell them the opposite- that it is the vaccinated filling the hospitals not the unvaccinated and all the reporting is lies. I don’t know what you do with that. 
 

I followed a link of an acquaintance on FB for someone very sick and in the hospital for a month now. Not only unvaxxed but this person’s loved one posting that the doctors and nurses were actively making him sicker. That they were giving him meds to make him sicker while denying invermectin. This person proclaiming everyone was in cahoots to push this narrative by intentionally prolonging this man’s illness. So what do you do with that? 
 

 

Sigh. Nothing. These people will have to suffer, watch their loved ones suffer and die, maybe die themselves, get long covid, or be really fortunate and have a very light case then go around proclaiming it is like that for all people. They have put political rhetoric and denial of reality above reason and rationality, and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it. I would be tempted to post to such a person that if they so radically distrust the medical community, then they should grow a spine and NOT use the healthcare system. Call them out as the hypocrites they are!

[HeartString]

6 hours ago, KSera said:

like "we don't even know if the vaccines work" (saw that again tonight). I'm curious if they just aren't looking at the information themself, so really don't know that overwhelmingly, most people in the hospital are unvaccinated?

They just jump from one “reason” to another.  Presented with numbers like that, many jump to thinking the numbers are made up, those are actually vaccine injured people not the unvaccinated, that the vaccine has killed as many people as Covid has (I see this one daily) , that it’s still the fault of the vaccinated because they are spreading it all over, on and on. There’s no consistency.  It’s maddening.  

[Syllieann]

31 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Sigh. Nothing. These people will have to suffer, watch their loved ones suffer and die, maybe die themselves, get long covid, or be really fortunate and have a very light case then go around proclaiming it is like that for all people. They have put political rhetoric and denial of reality above reason and rationality, and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it. I would be tempted to post to such a person that if they so radically distrust the medical community, then they should grow a spine and NOT use the healthcare system. Call them out as the hypocrites they are!

Yeah, I could accept their "freedom" if they could vow that they and their families will not use the health care system, but they will never do that.  I've given up.  To me they have blood on their hands and I just feel relieved when I see things about how they will refuse blood transfusions from vaccinated people.  I'm glad they've found another way to exit the gene pool.

[Faith-manor]

25 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

Yeah, I could accept their "freedom" if they could vow that they and their families will not use the health care system, but they will never do that.  I've given up.  To me they have blood on their hands and I just feel relieved when I see things about how they will refuse blood transfusions from vaccinated people.  I'm glad they've found another way to exit the gene pool.

Agreed. Many will win Darwin Awards and I won't feel a twinge of sadness about it. My grief is reserved for the innocents they took out with them, the people they infected, the children who had no choice and lost parents, grandparents, best friends, got it themselves. Ugh!

These people do have blood on their hands!

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, HeartString said:

They just jump from one “reason” to another.  Presented with numbers like that, many jump to thinking the numbers are made up, those are actually vaccine injured people not the unvaccinated, that the vaccine has killed as many people as Covid has (I see this one daily) , that it’s still the fault of the vaccinated because they are spreading it all over, on and on. There’s no consistency.  It’s maddening.  

The thing is that people like that are NEVER all that interested in the evidence. If you want to practice reasoning against one's biases, you should get it before it gets severely tested by political loyalties. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[BeachGal]

Evidence that myocarditis following mRNA vaccinations could be caused by accidental intravenous injections. Should be intramuscular.

https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927

Intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine can induce acute myopericarditis in mouse model

Conclusions

This study provided in-vivo evidence that inadvertent intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA-vaccines may induce myopericarditis. Brief withdrawal of syringe plunger to exclude blood aspiration may be one possible way to reduce such risk.

*****

They are seeing something similar in the rare cases of clots after the AstraZeneca vax which also should be intramuscular but were possibly accidentally intravenous. A preprint that still needs to be peer reviewed but is interesting nonetheless:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.29.450356v1

Thrombocytopenia and splenic platelet directed immune responses after intravenous ChAdOx1 nCov-19 administration

Here, we employ in vitro and in vivo models to characterize the possible mechanisms of this platelet-targeted autoimmunity. We show that intravenous but not intramuscular injection of ChAdOx1 nCov-19 triggers platelet-adenovirus aggregate formation and platelet activation. After intravenous injection, these aggregates are phagocytosed by macrophages in the spleen and platelet remnants are found in the marginal zone and follicles. This is followed by a pronounced B-cell response with the emergence of circulating antibodies binding to platelets. Our work contributes to the understanding of TTS and highlights accidental intravenous injection as potential mechanism for post-vaccination TTS. Hence, safe intramuscular injection, with aspiration prior to injection, could be a potential preventive measure when administering adenovirus-based vaccines.

Edited August 22, 2021 by BeachGal

[Tree Frog]

How are they confirming patients are vaccinated? Do they just take their word for it or is it tracked in a hospital system? One of us got both shots at a local grocery store. Does the store pharmacy share that info?

[chiguirre]

2 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

How are they confirming patients are vaccinated? Do they just take their word for it or is it tracked in a hospital system? One of us got both shots at a local grocery store. Does the store pharmacy share that info?

I'm not sure about all states, but in TX they include your info in the state database. I don't remember if it's an opt-out or opt-in option, but I think most people would be included.

When dd arrived at Navy boot camp, they took her vaccination card and checked it against the state data base before they released her from quarantine. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, wilrunner said:

How are they confirming patients are vaccinated? Do they just take their word for it or is it tracked in a hospital system? One of us got both shots at a local grocery store. Does the store pharmacy share that info?

I got both shots at a Kroger pharmacy, DD got hers at a mass vax site, and DS got his at a university facility in another state, and all of our records were automatically added to the respective state database AND showed up in our personal health records (in MyChart or MyHealth) without any action on our part.

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, Plum said:

COVID Vaccines Linked to Functional Neurological Disorders -MedPageToday

FND involves a disruption in normal brain mechanisms for controlling the body. It can be triggered by physical or emotional events including head injury, medical or surgical procedures, or vaccinations. People with FND may present with a range of neurological symptoms such as seizures, sensory abnormalities, gait or balance disturbance, or weakness. FND is distinct from feigning because patients perceive their symptoms as involuntary. Once it is recognized and diagnosed, FND can be treated.

"We strongly encourage clinicians to be aware of the possibility for FND in response to SARS-CoV-2 vaccinations," Butler told MedPage Today. "FND can be a serious and debilitating condition; however, it does not implicate any vaccine constituents and should not hamper ongoing vaccination efforts."

"Making clinicians aware of this can benefit people with FND reactions to vaccines, as well as maintaining public confidence in the vaccine," Butler added. "Rigorous causality assessments should occur when FND reactions are suspected."

 

"Correlation does not imply causation," Espay told MedPage Today. "If neurological symptoms following vaccination are determined to be functional during a neurological exam, then the vaccination can only be considered a stressor or precipitant, much like any other stressor might, such as a motor vehicle accident or sleep deprivation."

——

For me, weeding out whether the vaccine stressed an unknown underlying condition or created a new condition is semantics because the result is the same, but I understand why they want to separate that out. 

NFD used to be called a conversion disorder because they thought it was purely psychological and not neurological due to lack of physical proof since every test comes back unremarkable. In other words, it’s all in their head. They have come around, seeing it as the unresearched bridge between psychology and neurology. It is very real for these people.

Interesting and somewhat worrisome. I'd be very curious at the rates of this occurring and also at how quickly it resolves. 

It's very clear the reactogenicity of the mRNA vaccines can be a problem for people. It'd be very good to study it more and to mitigate it. 

[KSera]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

I've noticed similar, but our state's dashboard uses the description "not reported as fully vaccinated" instead of "not fully vaccinated."  It makes me wonder if there is a subset of individuals for whom the data isn't clear on whether or not they are "fully vaccinated."  The numbers are tracked back to January 2021, so I wonder if they had hospitalizations and deaths in the early months of 2021 where they did not mark down the patient's vax status.  And if so, then how do we know how many of those individuals were "fully vaccinated"?

And the other thing is that, at least in my state, hospitalizations and deaths were highest in the winter, when most people didn't have access to the vaccines.  So how much of the higher "unvaccinated" number was due to the timing of the case spike vs. the effectiveness of the vaccines?  I wish the state would break the numbers down for more clarity.

ETA I see your state is posting "current" data, while ours is posting "cumulative."  "Current" data seems more helpful.

Yes, a lot of state dashboards are doing it that way, but the hospital dashboards all tend to be current snapshots of who is hospitalized. And the hospitals tend to have more complete data on their patient’s vaccination status. 
 

I saw a super useful school dashboard last night that had not only cases in students and staff in each school, but also a chart of how many students had parents sign mask opt-out waivers at each school. That varied super widely from school to school and it appeared a pattern might be emerging with which schools had the most students out with Covid.

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting and somewhat worrisome. I'd be very curious at the rates of this occurring and also at how quickly it resolves. 

It's very clear the reactogenicity of the mRNA vaccines can be a problem for people. It'd be very good to study it more and to mitigate it. 

It appears at this point there are just a couple case reports this is based on. So thus far, no indication it’s anything other than exceedingly  rare. From reading what it is, it sounds like something that would be incredibly rare no matter what the precipitating factor, since the “precipitating factor” doesn’t even appear to be causal in the typical sense of the words. 

[wathe]

53 minutes ago, Plum said:

 

 

"Correlation does not imply causation," Espay told MedPage Today. "If neurological symptoms following vaccination are determined to be functional during a neurological exam, then the vaccination can only be considered a stressor or precipitant, much like any other stressor might, such as a motor vehicle accident or sleep deprivation."

——

For me, weeding out whether the vaccine stressed an unknown underlying condition or created a new condition is semantics because the result is the same, but I understand why they want to separate that out. 

 

I do think it's worth differentiating, because it's a different mechanism.  Meaning that prevention would need a different approach.  Decreasing the psychological/emotional stress of the vaccine needs a psychosocial approach (both at the individual and societal level), rather than a traditional medical approach.

It would be very interesting to me to see FND rates across countries.  I suspect rates will be higher in the US, where vaccines are such a hot, polarized, politics, tense issue.  

FND's are enigmatic, that's for sure.

[wathe]

Tangentially, we've had two outbreaks of mass psychogenic illness (also in the class of physical disorder caused by stress, and in this case, also social contagion) flood our ED in the past 20 years.  Both in high schools were someone thought they detected a toxin (smelled something) then had sudden onset neurological symptoms. Symptoms spread acutely amongst the student population; the same symptoms plus fainting.  The presentations were dramatic, and the symptoms were absolutely real to those suffering them.  Exhaustive environmental testing turned up nothing, and the pattern of who got sick and who didn't didn't make any physiological or epidemiological sense (but did fit the expected pattern of a MPI).  It all disappeared by itself (symptoms and smell) by the next day.

It's a really fascinating phenomenon

Edited August 22, 2021 by wathe

[catz]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

Tangentially, we've had two outbreaks of mass psychogenic illness (also in the class of physical disorder caused by stress, and in this case, also social contagion) flood our ED in the past 20 years.  Both in high schools were someone thought they detected a toxin (smelled something) then had sudden onset neurological symptoms. Symptoms spread acutely amongst the student population; the same symptoms plus fainting.  The presentations were dramatic, and the symptoms were absolutely real to those suffering them.  Exhaustive environmental testing turned up nothing, and the pattern of who got sick and who didn't didn't make any physiological or epidemiological sense (but did fit the expected pattern of a MPI).  It all disappeared by itself (symptoms and smell) by the next day.

That is fascinating.

[wathe]

2 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

That is fascinating.

It really is.

The logistics of management was also quite fascinating and difficult.  There were loads of kids (like a busload) all presenting to the ED at the same time with a ?poisoning/toxic exposure to a neurotoxin.  We had to get them all through the decontamination shower, use CBRN (chemical, biological, nuclear,radiation) event protocols etc because there was no way to know it wasn't a true toxic exposure until afterwards.  The ED pretty much ground to a halt for all other patients.  On the plus side, it was really good training to prepare for CBRN events.

[Corraleno]

24 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting and somewhat worrisome. I'd be very curious at the rates of this occurring and also at how quickly it resolves. 

It's very clear the reactogenicity of the mRNA vaccines can be a problem for people. It'd be very good to study it more and to mitigate it. 

It's not an mRNA thing, FND has occurred with AZ and Sinovac and with vaccines for other illnesses. The two papers referenced in that article (Butler, Fasano) only report four cases in total, one of whom was diagnosed with Bell's palsy, which has also been seen following vaccination with Sinovac. Bell's palsy occurred in the Pfizer and Moderna trials, although "rates were consistent with baseline population prevalence." Bell's palsy is temporary and usually resolves without treatment (the general hypothesis is that it involves reactivation of a dormant virus, similar to what happens when a vaccine triggers shingles or cold sores). The Butler paper reported that FND has also occurred with vaccines such as HPV and H1N1, and in many cases is clearly psychogenic. 

In addition to the patient with Bell's palsy, the Butler paper described a second patient who complained of right-side weakness, and when walking she dragged her right leg, but when asked to run she ran normally with symmetrical limb movement and her reflexes were normal. She complained of rapid muscle fatigue but could hold a one-pound weight for several minutes. The Fasano paper describes one patient who had a series of "psychogenic, nonepileptic seizures" after vaccination with Pfizer, and a patient who reported subjective loss of sensation on the right side two weeks after vaccination with AZ, although neurological exam showed no objective loss of sensation.

From a press release by the Functional Neurological Disorders Society, cited by Butler: "We know that FND is often triggered by a combination of abnormal physical and psychological experiences. We would expect FND to develop in some individuals after vaccination due to a combination of heightened stress owing to the pandemic, feelings of uncertainty about the vaccine and the normal transient physical symptoms, and discomfort after vaccination. If FND is not quickly detected and diagnosed with appropriate explanation and management, it can become a more prolonged condition. It is important that these conditions are recognized for what they are – in part so that the patient can be appropriately reassured and can, if necessary, access appropriate treatment, and to prevent a misleading impression of neurological complications of the vaccines."

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

It's not an mRNA thing, FND has occurred with AZ and Sinovac and with vaccines for other illnesses. The two papers referenced in that article (Butler, Fasano) only report four cases in total, one of whom was diagnosed with Bell's palsy, which has also been seen following vaccination with Sinovac. Bell's palsy occurred in the Pfizer and Moderna trials, although "rates were consistent with baseline population prevalence." Bell's palsy is temporary and usually resolves without treatment (the general hypothesis is that it involves reactivation of a dormant virus, similar to what happens when a vaccine triggers shingles or cold sores). The Butler paper reported that FND has also occurred with vaccines such as HPV and H1N1, and in many cases is clearly psychogenic. 

In addition to the patient with Bell's palsy, the Butler paper described a second patient who complained of right-side weakness, and when walking she dragged her right leg, but when asked to run she ran normally with symmetrical limb movement and her reflexes were normal. She complained of rapid muscle fatigue but could hold a one-pound weight for several minutes. The Fasano paper describes one patient who had a series of "psychogenic, nonepileptic seizures" after vaccination with Pfizer, and a patient who reported subjective loss of sensation on the right side two weeks after vaccination with AZ, although neurological exam showed no objective loss of sensation.

From a press release by the Functional Neurological Disorders Society, cited by Butler: "We know that FND is often triggered by a combination of abnormal physical and psychological experiences. We would expect FND to develop in some individuals after vaccination due to a combination of heightened stress owing to the pandemic, feelings of uncertainty about the vaccine and the normal transient physical symptoms, and discomfort after vaccination. If FND is not quickly detected and diagnosed with appropriate explanation and management, it can become a more prolonged condition. It is important that these conditions are recognized for what they are – in part so that the patient can be appropriately reassured and can, if necessary, access appropriate treatment, and to prevent a misleading impression of neurological complications of the vaccines."

I guess I feel a bit uncomfortable assuming it's purely psychological without some studying. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

From the article…

In our view, FND following COVID-19 vaccination will not be a rare phenomenon and will be widely covered by the media, being interpreted as a direct consequence of the vaccine, as already seen in the past," they wrote.

HOW COMMON IS FUNCTIONAL NEUROLOGICAL DISORDER?

Although FND is listed as a rare disease, researchers are finding that functional symptoms are often seen in neurological services making it a common disorder. One report indicates approximately 1/3 of outpatient neurology clinic attendances are patients reporting functional symptoms. While the exact prevalence is unknown, FND is the second most common reason for a neurological outpatient visit after headache/migraine. The mechanisms which cause FND continues to be poorly understood despite its prevalence within neurological clinics.

https://fndhope.org/fnd-guide/

They are suggesting that the likelihood we'll see increasing reports of FND is because social media has created so much unwarranted anxiety about the vaccines, NOT because the vaccines are causing lots of actual neurological damage. Both of the papers referenced in the article you linked are urging HCPs to look out for this so they can reassure patients who present this way that what they have is not actual neurological damage.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I guess I feel a bit uncomfortable assuming it's purely psychological without some studying. 

I don't think they're saying it's purely psychological, just that it can be precipitated or exacerbated by psychological factors, and symptoms tend to be subjective and often not objectively verifiable. It's also possible that in some people vaccines may reactivate dormant viruses, which can cause Bell's palsy and other neurological symptoms (as well as reactivating viruses that cause shingles or cold sores). And maybe there is an issue with inflammation as part of the overall immune response, but there is no evidence that some component of the current covid vaccines are causing physical neurological damage. FND has occurred with mRNA, adenovirus, and inactivated covid vaccines as well as HPV and influenza vaccines, and the vast majority of cases occur in contexts that have nothing to do with vaccines.

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, BeachGal said:

Evidence that myocarditis following mRNA vaccinations could be caused by accidental intravenous injections. Should be intramuscular.

https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927

Intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine can induce acute myopericarditis in mouse model

Conclusions

This study provided in-vivo evidence that inadvertent intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA-vaccines may induce myopericarditis. Brief withdrawal of syringe plunger to exclude blood aspiration may be one possible way to reduce such risk.

*****

They are seeing something similar in the rare cases of clots after the AstraZeneca vax which also should be intramuscular but were possibly accidentally intravenous. A preprint that still needs to be peer reviewed but is interesting nonetheless:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.29.450356v1

Thrombocytopenia and splenic platelet directed immune responses after intravenous ChAdOx1 nCov-19 administration

Here, we employ in vitro and in vivo models to characterize the possible mechanisms of this platelet-targeted autoimmunity. We show that intravenous but not intramuscular injection of ChAdOx1 nCov-19 triggers platelet-adenovirus aggregate formation and platelet activation. After intravenous injection, these aggregates are phagocytosed by macrophages in the spleen and platelet remnants are found in the marginal zone and follicles. This is followed by a pronounced B-cell response with the emergence of circulating antibodies binding to platelets. Our work contributes to the understanding of TTS and highlights accidental intravenous injection as potential mechanism for post-vaccination TTS. Hence, safe intramuscular injection, with aspiration prior to injection, could be a potential preventive measure when administering adenovirus-based vaccines.

This is why you are supposed to draw back on the syringe first, to be sure you don't get a flash of blood. but not everyone does, especially in big clinics I bet. 

[Not_a_Number]

57 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I think you're missing the point — they are suggesting that the likelihood we'll see increasing reports of FND is because social media has created so much unwarranted anxiety about the vaccines, NOT because the vaccines are causing lots of actual neurological damage. Both of the papers referenced in the article you linked are urging HCPs to look out for this so they can reassure patients who present this way that what they have is not actual neurological damage.

But why are we assuming all neurological symptoms are psychological? I don’t get that. I had a killer headache for two weeks post-vaccine, and it was emphatically not due to anxiety.

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But why are we assuming all neurological symptoms are psychological? I don’t get that. I had a killer headache for two weeks post-vaccine, and it was emphatically not due to anxiety.

That’s not what they’re saying. There are a lot of neurological symptoms that are not psychogenic at all, but the ones that are doesn’t mean they’re “all in their head”. Many of these are symptoms actually physically happening (like with the contagious fainting epidemics—the people really are fainting). It happens most frequently in people who have other conditions like anxiety, personality disorders, dissociative disorders, etc. I have a close family member with one of these conditions and a co-occurring psychogenic condition that is very real for them that reminds me a lot of this, so it really makes sense to me how this happens. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

That’s not what they’re saying. There are a lot of neurological symptoms that are not psychogenic at all, but the ones that are doesn’t mean they’re “all in their head”. Many of these are symptoms actually physically happening (like with the contagious fainting epidemics—the people really are fainting). It happens most frequently in people who have other conditions like anxiety, personality disorders, dissociative disorders, etc. I have a close family member with one of these conditions and a co-occurring psychogenic condition that is very real for them that reminds me a lot of this, so it really makes sense to me how this happens. 

I believe that this happens, yes.

I’ll have to look at the actual papers. I seem to have gotten a different impression from all this than the rest of you, but I don’t currently have the energy to disentangle.

[mommyoffive]

People who received J&J vaccine will likely need booster, surgeon general says (msn.com)

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

But why are we assuming all neurological symptoms are psychological? I don’t get that. I had a killer headache for two weeks post-vaccine, and it was emphatically not due to anxiety.

No one is "assuming all neurological symptoms are psychological." Functional Neurological Disorder, by definition, excludes neurological issues for which there are clear structural causes. One publication described it as a "software" vs  "hardware” problem — basically a glitch in the brain software that controls your body. And that can be caused by your brain misinterpreting symptoms, often due to anxiety or trauma, which then exacerbates the symptoms.

These two papers are only reporting on four patients, in total, with very specific symptoms — they are not extrapolating to every person who reports adverse effects from the vaccines and they are not talking about headaches. One patient had what were described as psychogenic nonepileptic seizures, and the other three complained of muscle weakness or lack of sensation on one side but MRIs and reflexes were normal and in some cases physical exam contradicted the patient's perception.  One patient complained of weakness on her right side, then later said it switched to the left side, and then it switched back to the right side again. She dragged her right foot while walking but ran normally.

None of the patients were dismissed as having symptoms that were “all in their head” — the patients with muscle weakness were referred to physical therapy because their subjective experience of the symptoms is real, even if objective evidence shows no loss of function, and there is a risk that the longer the symptoms go unaddressed the more it reinforces the glitched pathways in the brain. IOW, the more that woman drags her foot and believes she’s too tired and weak to carry out daily tasks, the more likely that that will become her reality. That is the message in these two papers (well one is a letter to the editor) — HCPs should look out for symptoms of FND so they can educate patients about what is really happening and get them help so the symptoms and behaviors do not become entrenched.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, wathe said:

Tangentially, we've had two outbreaks of mass psychogenic illness (also in the class of physical disorder caused by stress, and in this case, also social contagion) flood our ED in the past 20 years.  Both in high schools were someone thought they detected a toxin (smelled something) then had sudden onset neurological symptoms. Symptoms spread acutely amongst the student population; the same symptoms plus fainting.  The presentations were dramatic, and the symptoms were absolutely real to those suffering them.  Exhaustive environmental testing turned up nothing, and the pattern of who got sick and who didn't didn't make any physiological or epidemiological sense (but did fit the expected pattern of a MPI).  It all disappeared by itself (symptoms and smell) by the next day.

It's a really fascinating phenomenon

There were MPI outbreaks, mostly centered in schools, in both Taiwan and South Korea following a mass vaccination campaign against H1N1 in 2009. The students who experienced symptoms (weakness, dizziness, nausea) blamed the vaccine, but physical and lab analysis found no organic cause and investigation of vaccine protocols found no link. All students recovered fully.

[BeachGal]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

This is why you are supposed to draw back on the syringe first, to be sure you don't get a flash of blood. but not everyone does, especially in big clinics I bet. 

Yes, but when Covid vaccines were first rolling out, they were advised against doing so. I would think that advice has changed in the meantime but I don’t know.

The Oxford study was done on mice so hard to say for sure if it is what caused myocarditis in humans. It’s given in the deltoid and so shouldn’t cause a problem. A mystery for sure but very interesting.

[vonfirmath]

6 hours ago, chiguirre said:

I'm not sure about all states, but in TX they include your info in the state database. I don't remember if it's an opt-out or opt-in option, but I think most people would be included.

When dd arrived at Navy boot camp, they took her vaccination card and checked it against the state data base before they released her from quarantine. 

She was lucky they let vaccination mean she didn't need to quarantine. My niece has now quarantined four times since she entered the army last (October? Maybe November).  After the second one, she got vaccinated in hopes it would prevent it happening again. It didn't matter.

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

This is why you are supposed to draw back on the syringe first, to be sure you don't get a flash of blood. but not everyone does, especially in big clinics I bet. 

Why would big clinics be different in this way? 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

But why are we assuming all neurological symptoms are psychological? I don’t get that. I had a killer headache for two weeks post-vaccine, and it was emphatically not due to anxiety.

I thought they were talking specifically about FND’s, not all neurological symptoms. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I thought they were talking specifically about FND’s, not all neurological symptoms. 

My apologies. Why are we assuming FNDs aren't related to the physical effects of the vaccine? 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

My apologies. Why are we assuming FNDs aren't related to the physical effects of the vaccine? 

Well I think we could ask why we are assuming these are FND’s, but assuming that that diagnosis is correct, then they aren’t caused by physical effects because something caused by physical effects is by definition not a FND.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Well I think we could ask why we are assuming these are FND’s, but assuming that that diagnosis is correct, then they aren’t caused by physical effects because something caused by physical effects is by definition not a FND.

OK, maybe I'm out of my depth, but the article says this: 

FND involves a disruption in normal brain mechanisms for controlling the body. It can be triggered by physical or emotional events including head injury, medical or surgical procedures, or vaccinations. 

Is this wrong? Is an FND generally not caused by physical events? 

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

OK, maybe I'm out of my depth, but the article says this: 

FND involves a disruption in normal brain mechanisms for controlling the body. It can be triggered by physical or emotional events including head injury, medical or surgical procedures, or vaccinations. 

Is this wrong? Is an FND generally not caused by physical events? 

Triggered and caused are not synonyms.

 

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

OK, maybe I'm out of my depth, but the article says this: 

FND involves a disruption in normal brain mechanisms for controlling the body. It can be triggered by physical or emotional events including head injury, medical or surgical procedures, or vaccinations. 

Is this wrong? Is an FND generally not caused by physical events? 

Imagine I see a spider, and have a panic attack, faint, and hit my head. Nothing the spider did actually caused my head injury. It triggered my symptoms, but there was nothing inherent in the nature of the spider that did it. 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Imagine I see a spider, and have a panic attack, faint, and hit my head. Nothing the spider did actually caused my head injury. It triggered my symptoms, but there was nothing inherent in the nature of the spider that did it. 

Yes, I understand how that works. But I can’t find anything that says that FNDs can’t be genuinely caused by physical events such as vaccines. It’s possibly caused by the anxiety but maybe not? What am I missing?

[Drama Llama]

Here's an example from me. 

Once I went out for lunch, and ordered something I'd never had before, and within about 30 seconds of putting it in my mouth got violently ill, worse stomach bug I've ever had.  Later, I found out, that other people who had eaten breakfast with me, had all gotten violently ill a few hours later, so i suspect we all had food poisoning from something at breakfast, but because the symptoms showed up at lunch, in my mind, they got mixed up with lunch.

To this day, I can not eat that food without throwing up.  There is a pattern, in my brain, that connects eating that food and throwing up.  It's not conscious. I don't decide to throw up.  I can't will it away. If I go somewhere like a party and that food is served, I need to treat it like an allergen, because throwing up in someone's living room is to be avoided. 

But, my problem is not caused by the food. It's just triggered by the food.  There wouldn't be a point in investigating the ingredients in the food, because the problem is functional. 

Similarly, someone can have a reaction where the first time it happens the trigger is anxiety about the vaccine, but then a pattern becomes set. It's a real actual disorder, causing real actual symptoms, but the solution isn't to change the formulation of the vaccine because the vaccine is the trigger, not the cause. 

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Similarly, someone can have a reaction where the first time it happens the trigger is anxiety about the vaccine, but then a pattern becomes set. It's a real actual disorder, causing real actual symptoms, but the solution isn't to change the formulation of the vaccine because the vaccine is the trigger, not the cause. 

I’m not having trouble understanding this, lol. My question is how you know it’s not the cause??

[fraidycat]

23 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Here's an example from me. 

Once I went out for lunch, and ordered something I'd never had before, and within about 30 seconds of putting it in my mouth got violently ill, worse stomach bug I've ever had.  Later, I found out, that other people who had eaten breakfast with me, had all gotten violently ill a few hours later, so i suspect we all had food poisoning from something at breakfast, but because the symptoms showed up at lunch, in my mind, they got mixed up with lunch.

To this day, I can not eat that food without throwing up.  There is a pattern, in my brain, that connects eating that food and throwing up.  It's not conscious. I don't decide to throw up.  I can't will it away. If I go somewhere like a party and that food is served, I need to treat it like an allergen, because throwing up in someone's living room is to be avoided. 

But, my problem is not caused by the food. It's just triggered by the food.  There wouldn't be a point in investigating the ingredients in the food, because the problem is functional. 

Similarly, someone can have a reaction where the first time it happens the trigger is anxiety about the vaccine, but then a pattern becomes set. It's a real actual disorder, causing real actual symptoms, but the solution isn't to change the formulation of the vaccine because the vaccine is the trigger, not the cause. 

The mind-body connection is so interesting!

I got a new pullover sweater/jacket thingy for Christmas when I was newly pregnant with my first and felt nauseous and gaggy all the time. I loved it and wore it often.  Every time I pulled that sweater over my head for the next few years, I would gag and feel slightly nauseous for a minute or so. No vomit, thank goodness! 

Edited August 22, 2021 by fraidycat

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I’m not having trouble understanding this, lol. My question is how you know it’s not the cause??

 

Something that was caused by the ingredients in the vaccine wouldn't be a functional disorder.  Are you asking how doctors came to the conclusion that these reactions are functional?

I think one thing they look at is the rate at which something is diagnosed after placebo.  If people faint after both placebo and mRNA vaccine, the probably that's not a reaction to the ingredients.  Another thing they might look at is the patterns in how the reaction happens.  So, if a certain vaccine reaction, that appears to be functional, is strongly associated with believing certain conspiracies, then that might support the idea that anxiety is playing a role.  

But to be honest, I don't know for sure.  I'm not a medical professional.  

[Corraleno]

29 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m not having trouble understanding this, lol. My question is how you know it’s not the cause??

In the cases discussed in the two papers, MRIs, reflexes, etc., were normal, and some of the subjective symptoms were contradicted by objective evidence on exam. I don't know what the possible mechanism could be for some chemical in the vaccine to cause muscle weakness that randomly switches sides from week to week and suddenly disappears when the patient is asked to run. Or that could cause loss of sensation in extremities, that only appears two weeks after vaccination and just happens to disappear when examined by a neurologist. 

I think the cases of Bell's palsy are in a different category, as BP has a demonstrable physical manifestation (temporary facial paralysis). There does seem to be a correlation between BP and certain viruses, and vaccines might cause certain dormant viruses to be reactivated, so it's possible that this is what's happening in BP cases that follow vaccination. But that would be a function of an individual's immune system (and possibly whatever viruses they happen to have had in the past that remain dormant in their system), not a chemical in the vaccine that specifically causes facial paralysis. In the same way, some people may experience vasovagal syncope after vaccination, which is an actual physical reaction, but it is not caused by anything in the vaccine.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Corraleno

[Not_a_Number]

39 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Something that was caused by the ingredients in the vaccine wouldn't be a functional disorder.  Are you asking how doctors came to the conclusion that these reactions are functional?

What's a functional disorder? The definition I pulled up didn't seem to indicate that it couldn't be caused by the ingredients. 

 

39 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I think one thing they look at is the rate at which something is diagnosed after placebo.  If people faint after both placebo and mRNA vaccine, the probably that's not a reaction to the ingredients.  Another thing they might look at is the patterns in how the reaction happens.  So, if a certain vaccine reaction, that appears to be functional, is strongly associated with believing certain conspiracies, then that might support the idea that anxiety is playing a role.  

Yes, that's the standard way to study it, but of course for rare reactions it's actually completely impractical and doesn't actually get studied well.

 

39 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

But to be honest, I don't know for sure.  I'm not a medical professional.  

Me neither. That's why I'm trying to understand. 

[Not_a_Number]

19 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

In the cases discussed in the two papers, MRIs, reflexes, etc., were normal, and some of the subjective symptoms were contradicted by objective evidence on exam

I dunno... people with long COVID also seem to have normal MRIs and people can't figure out what's wrong with them via tests. It might just mean our tests aren't measuring the right stuff, you know? 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

What's a functional disorder? The definition I pulled up didn't seem to indicate that it couldn't be caused by the ingredients. 

 

Yes, that's the standard way to study it, but of course for rare reactions it's actually completely impractical and doesn't actually get studied well.

 

Me neither. That's why I'm trying to understand. 

Can you link to the definition you pulled up?  

[ktgrok]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I dunno... people with long COVID also seem to have normal MRIs and people can't figure out what's wrong with them via tests. It might just mean our tests aren't measuring the right stuff, you know? 

Well, like with seizures you can see them on an eeg - there is electrical activity triggering them. with a functional disorder the patient has seizures, but there is no electrical activity to show it on the eeg (I think). Or tests of nerve conduction don't match with the symptoms, etc. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Can you link to the definition you pulled up?  

I think I just pasted one from the article. Here's another one: 

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3745

It sounds like they basically diagnose it whenever there's a problem of functioning but they don't know what it is 😛 . 

[Drama Llama]

Here is one good description from a source a trust:

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fnd/

If you read it, they're pretty clearly distinguishing between "triggers", "causes" and "risk factors".  You'll also notice that it's clearly distinguished from a "structural disease process"  which would include physical damage caused by a vaccine ingredient.  

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think I just pasted one from the article. Here's another one: 

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3745

It sounds like they basically diagnose it whenever there's a problem of functioning but they don't know what it is 😛 . 

Do you have access to that whole article?