talk to me about Covid19 and public restrooms

[ktgrok]

This is going to be our sticking point I think. 

There are a lot of places I think would be safe to go to in the not too too distant future, that are outdoors, but given I have young kids, and I have the pelvic floor of a woman in her 40s who birthed a 10 pound baby and drinks too much coffee, we will almost always end up using the restroom. Think outdoor botanical gardens, plant nurseries, hiking areas, beach, etc. Even if we want to drive to go out a bit into the country to get darker skies while we are studying astronomy, etc we'd need to stop and use the potty likely. 

Adding in that in this area, anything and everything is 25-50 minutes away it seems. 

So, like I said, sticking point is, how safe/unsafe are public restrooms with this? Any ways to increase safety? 

[happi duck]

This has caused me to pause too even without little kids.

I think I could safely use a public restroom but are there any open?  Any trails I've read about being open mention bathrooms being locked so "plan accordingly".

The stress of "what if?" would make me need to go!

[CTVKath]

That's sort of me and although I've mostly only been to the grocery store in the last 6 weeks with a couple of trips to other places for supplies, I am paying attention to the facilities because I use them often and so does my 8yo son. So far, it's not caused me concern. I'm noticing that some places have the doors to the restroom propped open. Trash cans are placed right outside the doors so you can easily use paper towels on your way out. Plenty of soap. And so far most doors open to the outside so that you have to use the handle to open the door and go inside but on your way out you can use your foot, knee or elbow to get out.

Yesterday I took both kids to go see the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds flyover. Afterwards I was dropping off handsewn masks to 2 different sets of grandparents. Everybody had to go!!!!!! But where to go? I stopped at Publix and it was fine. We all wore masks into the store, used the restroom and washed hands and left. I didn't like how many people were in the store but we were in and out in a handful of minutes.

Given a choice, I'd choose a grocery store to take the kids to the restroom if I had to take them.

[bolt.]

I can't see that anything that happens inside a public washroom is any more likely to spread covid-19 than the things that happen in other indoor public spaces.

In public washrooms we are habitually highly focused on hygiene. We are quite aware of a desire to touch things as little as possible, to wash our hands, to keep our hands away from our face, etc. Covid-19 can be found in fecal matter, therefore there is one additional agency of transmission (in addition to normal droplets) but it seems that we are already taking precautions against fecal transmission (of other illnesses) when we use these types of facilities.

Therefore I think we emotionally add "public washrooms are gross" plus "covid-19 is dangerous" to equal "double danger in those facilities". But when I ask myself about the science of those two risks, they are controlled by the same actions, so I can't see why the danger would be greater.

[Kanin]

I've been thinking about this, too. For example, what if my mom wants to come visit and we sit in lawn chairs in my garden. But she needs to pee! Would i feel comfortable with her going inside my house just to use the bathroom? Honestly I'm more worried about the airborne tiny particles of coronavirus floating in the air. In a bathroom, you can be super careful to wash thoroughly and not touch anything. That's my usual operating procedure in public bathrooms, anyway. But how do you protect against the tiny particle that go right through a mask?

[Jean in Newcastle]

The biggest danger would be from porta-potty type of situations, I think.  For those I would (if possible) pack the small hand sanitizers or wipes and travel-size toilet seat covers.  (If you can find any right now.)

In other public restrooms you would have access to toilet seat covers and soap and water and hand dryers. 

[Robin M]

Carry wet wipes or a small spray bottle of clorox bleach along with a few paper towels and spritz and clean before you go or touch anything.  

[ktgrok]

23 minutes ago, happi duck said:

This has caused me to pause too even without little kids.

I think I could safely use a public restroom but are there any open?  Any trails I've read about being open mention bathrooms being locked so "plan accordingly".

The stress of "what if?" would make me need to go!

This is for a few weeks from now, as things open up, I'm thinking. 

[ktgrok]

Ok, this is reassuring! I'd heard something about airborne particles from flushing or something and was wondering if I had missed something about a significantly higher risk. 

If it is just normal risk, that's better. 

[mathnerd]

This is an entirely personal decision and there is no correct answer. Many of us locally feared that the disease was already spreading in Jan and Feb (and we were right, apparently). Asian news was saying that people in crowded apartment buildings in Asia got COVID because of fecal particles airborne during flushing and it is a big concern for me. I asked my son to please not use any restrooms outside our home starting in January. When he did use public restrooms when he attended some long events, I told him to use his elbow to open the doors and use a paper towel to touch any surface like handles. I strictly warned him to not touch his face at all. I gave him a hand sanitizer bottle and coached him on how to apply it all over his hands. When we arrived home, he threw his outside clothes inside the washing machine and took a shower and we all left our footwear outside. Many people around me were (are) living like that and it was not abnormal considering that they are finding cases of people who were infected in Jan and died in early Feb in my area. 

All the public restrooms in my county were closed in March. I saw that Target and Costco had their restrooms open throughout the pandemic. If using public restrooms, use precautions, leave the restroom as fast as possible so as to minimize exposure, use hand sanitizer even if you washed your hands, do not use the automatic air dryers because they might suck in air with infected airborne particles and blast them on you. 

[Farrar]

41 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I can't see that anything that happens inside a public washroom is any more likely to spread covid-19 than the things that happen in other indoor public spaces.

In public washrooms we are habitually highly focused on hygiene. We are quite aware of a desire to touch things as little as possible, to wash our hands, to keep our hands away from our face, etc. Covid-19 can be found in fecal matter, therefore there is one additional agency of transmission (in addition to normal droplets) but it seems that we are already taking precautions against fecal transmission (of other illnesses) when we use these types of facilities.

Therefore I think we emotionally add "public washrooms are gross" plus "covid-19 is dangerous" to equal "double danger in those facilities". But when I ask myself about the science of those two risks, they are controlled by the same actions, so I can't see why the danger would be greater.

I'm not so sure. Because of that extra vector of fecal matter I would think it would be more risky, even though we take precautions. But I'm genuinely not sure. I feel like we'd need studies.

[Ottakee]

That is a huge issue for me as well.  I have hiked and can use the great out doors....bit that doesn't work in more urban areas.  We do strategically place where we hike/walk, etc based on rest room availability.

Public restrooms and porta potties don't worry me as you sanitize/wash your hands there.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, kand said:

The risk of airborne particles is my concern as well. There have been a couple studies suggesting that could be a concern. I’m really hoping for more info, and especially hoping they find that whatever particles they are finding airborne in restrooms turn out to not be capable of infecting someone else (like that they are only fragments or something)  Otherwise I’m stuck at home a very long time. 

yes, tha tis my concern. And a quick google didn't leave me feeling any better about it. Sigh. 

[Carrie12345]

The aerosolization (spell check isn’t helping me for some reason) is my concern.  I don’t have any definitive thing to post to back that up, but there was some article about US treatment plants detecting outbreaks in advance which has, at least for now, put a big fear in my head!  So many public toilets have much more force than the home toilets we’re already supposed to protect our toothbrushes from, yk? And, well, porta potties just... uh, sit there.

Who knows what they’ll find down the road. For now, it’s a no from me.

[Frances]

I’m concerned too, primarily because of public restrooms at work. But getting back to outdoor biking when the state parks re-open here is another concern. I’ve always been super careful in the past, but the whole airborne thing from flushing seems like a completely new risk.

[Frances]

9 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

The aerosolization (spell check isn’t helping me for some reason) is my concern.  I don’t have any definitive thing to post to back that up, but there was some article about US treatment plants detecting outbreaks in advance which has, at least for now, put a big fear in my head!  So many public toilets have much more force than the home toilets we’re already supposed to protect our toothbrushes from, yk? And, well, porta potties just... uh, sit there.

Who knows what they’ll find down the road. For now, it’s a no from me.

And most don’t have lids. And yeah, I haven’t kept my toothbrush in a bathroom for many, many years.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Frances

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, Frances said:

And most don’t have lids. And yeah, I haven’t kept my toothbrush in a bathroom for many, many years.

Yup, that's the issue. We can wash hands, but if there is virus in the air...no amount of being careful fixes that. 

[Pen]

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-hong-kong-high-rise-sewage-pipe-investigation-2020-2

[Selkie]

I read a study a few weeks ago that was pretty horrifying. When an open toilet (no lid) is flushed, a huge amount of Covid germs are aerosolized and form a cloud that lingers in the air for a long time - 30 to 40 minutes, IIRC.

[J-rap]

I'd use it if I had to...  In other words, if I decided to go somewhere, I don't think I'd let the possibility of using a public toilet be the thing that keeps me away.  I'd be very careful and I'd wear a mask and not sit on the toilet seat (I rarely actually sit on it), and maybe even close my eyes and for sure my mouth, and I'd wash my hands thoroughly immediately afterward, and probably use disinfecting wipes on my hands again after leaving the restroom.  Are the risks higher there?  Probably, and I'd guess even air droplets in a closed-in area are more likely.  But for me, it's also not about perfection because I think that's impossible.  I think we'll likely all get it eventually... It's more about doing the best we can in the circumstances we are in.

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I’m concerned too, primarily because of public restrooms at work. But getting back to outdoor biking when the state parks re-open here is another concern. I’ve always been super careful in the past, but the whole airborne thing from flushing seems like a completely new risk.

Not just from flushing, either....  breathing!

[regentrude]

I am not concerned about public restrooms. 

I am the only person in the stall, and no other people are within 6 ft of me. The virus is not transmitted via toilet seat to my butt, so the whole hovering thing makes no sense to me with respect to covid.  I wash my hands after using the bathroom. And if I'm concerned about door handles, hand sanitizer when I get back to your car. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by regentrude

[Kalmia]

My unorthodox suggestion is a camping toilet for situations where you can use one (clearly, you can't carry one around the mall). But it is sort of a bigger, more sealed version of the Fisher Price travel potty we had for the kids when they were little and that thing was priceless at parks and beaches and even could be used in the back of the SUV. It won't eliminate all visits, but will enable you reduce total visits to public bathrooms. You need trash bags and either cat litter, sawdust, or hamster-type bedding, put a little litter in the bottom of the bag and sprinkle in some more between each use. Sprinkling baking soda is also helpful. The lid snaps shut and the bag can be tied and thrown away.  https://www.cabelas.com/product/LUGGABLE-LOO-TOILET-SEAT-BUCKET/1723735.uts?slotId=0

Edited May 3, 2020 by Kalmia

[ktgrok]

29 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am not concerned about public restrooms. 

I am the only person in the stall, and no other people are within 6 ft of me. The virus is not transmitted via toilet seat to my butt, so the whole hovering thing makes no sense to me with respect to covid.  I wash my hands after using the bathroom. And if I'm concerned about door handles, hand sanitizer when I get back to your car. 

It's not touching things I'm worried about - it is the virus in the air from toilets being flushed over and over that have no lid. Given that it is in feces, that is a concern for me. Or at least, I'm trying to figure out how much of a concern it should be. 

Normally, I'm very not germ phobic. but I cannot be in the hospital right now. And I have a kid that gets brain inflammation when he or anyone in the house is sick. So..yeah. 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

The virus is not transmitted via toilet seat to my butt, so the whole hovering thing makes no sense to me with respect to covid.

Or with respect to anything else.  All it does it get a bunch of urine (or worse) all over the seat for the next person--including the next person who *can't* hover due to disability.  If no one hovered, there would be no need to hover.

[Pen]

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/928234

[Lanny]

I believe in the future, possibly 10 or 20 years from now, it will be common to have public bathrooms that clean themselves, between users. I believe those exist in some places (New York City?) where they have public restrooms for homeless people? Also possibly in Europe?

I can see that technology eventually being deployed in Civil Turbojet Aircraft. One person uses the restroom, they leave, the restroom cleans itself and then the next person can enter.

I am grounded (over 70) until June 1st but I assume that the supermarket where I did most of our shopping, which is wide open at the front (lots of fresh air ) is much safer with regard to the possibility of getting a virus, than is the nearby little chain store where they sell out of the box and have many things of excellent quality and very low prices. That store really has no fresh air. the doors are closed and I can see that repeating itself anywhere there isn't a ton of fresh air. We live in a Tropical Valley, so there are a lot of places here with lots of fresh air, but where heating or air conditioning are needed, the buildings need to be closed in.

In the interim, best to use the restroom before you leave the house and then hope for the best. I would take some baby wipes and at least you can wipe the toilet seat, if there is one, and that is better than nothing.  Possibly safer if there's no seat on the toilet?

[cintinative]

I didn't read all the posts but I have used these on long hikes without access to a bathroom:  http://www.traveljohn.com/

All of the bathrooms at parks, state and local, are blocked off here. We have not tried driving far to hike and if we did, I would need some of these. I don't know what I would do if we were at a park where you could not find privacy in the woods.  I am going to try my best to avoid public restrooms but I don't know how practical that is.

Some of our parks have composting toilets (no flush) so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. Anyway, they aren't open right now.

Edited May 4, 2020 by cintinative

[cintinative]

2 hours ago, Kalmia said:

My unorthodox suggestion is a camping toilet for situations where you can use one (clearly, you can't carry one around the mall). But it is sort of a bigger, more sealed version of the Fisher Price travel potty we had for the kids when they were little and that thing was priceless at parks and beaches and even could be used in the back of the SUV. It won't eliminate all visits, but will enable you reduce total visits to public bathrooms. You need trash bags and either cat litter, sawdust, or hamster-type bedding, put a little litter in the bottom of the bag and sprinkle in some more between each use. Sprinkling baking soda is also helpful. The lid snaps shut and the bag can be tied and thrown away.  https://www.cabelas.com/product/LUGGABLE-LOO-TOILET-SEAT-BUCKET/1723735.uts?slotId=0

 

A friend of mine with many children has purchased one of these (maybe not this specific thing) and swears it is the best thing ever. However, she has a van so it is possible to use it without being seen. We don't have a vehicle that fits that description. 😃

[regentrude]

52 minutes ago, Lanny said:

I would take some baby wipes and at least you can wipe the toilet seat, if there is one, and that is better than nothing.  Possibly safer if there's no seat on the toilet?

the presence or absence of a toilet seat has absolutely no bearing on covid infection. It doesn't bite you in the butt. (I assume nobody is licking the seat)

Edited May 4, 2020 by regentrude

[Farrar]

The concern isn't that the toilet seat is going to get you. Or that if there's a microscopic bit of fecal matter on the seat that it's going to infect you via your butt skin. It's that more surfaces in the bathroom may have that fecal matter and you might touch it, even if you're trying not to. And that it might be aerosolized. I don't think this is a crazy fear... we know that bathrooms and sewage was a real vector during SARS. That said, if they look at it and decide that it's safe, I could absolutely believe that too. I just think from what I can see, it's not clear yet. 

[mom2samlibby]

Our front line workers have been using the same toliets for the past 8 weeks, so this is something I wouldn't even worry about.   Walmart workers, grocery store workers, medical personal.  

 I would just wash my hands well, like I normally do.  

Edited May 4, 2020 by mom2samlibby

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, mom2samlibby said:

Our front line workers have been using the same toliets for the past 8 weeks, so this is something I wouldn't even worry about.   Walmart workers, grocery store workers, medical personal.  

 I would just wash my hands well, like I normally do.  

Are medical professionals using the same toilets at patients at the hospital? Yes, they are using the ones other staff are using, that's true, but we also have medical staff getting sick, even when using PPE with patients...so not sure that isn't actually an issue. The others, yes, they are, but we don't know if it is transmitting to them or others that way or not, do we?

[mom2samlibby]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

Are medical professionals using the same toilets at patients at the hospital? Yes, they are using the ones other staff are using, that's true, but we also have medical staff getting sick, even when using PPE with patients...so not sure that isn't actually an issue. The others, yes, they are, but we don't know if it is transmitting to them or others that way or not, do we?

I would assume hospitals have toilets for their staff that aren't accessible to patients.  They would all be using those.  

My thought process is that if the toilet were the source of transmission, we would be seeing a lot more grocery store workers and Walmart workers getting sick.  

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, mom2samlibby said:

I would assume hospitals have toilets for their staff that aren't accessible to patients.  They would all be using those.  

My thought process is that if the toilet were the source of transmission, we would be seeing a lot more grocery store workers and Walmart workers getting sick.  

Well, we'd have to test them first, and that isn't happening in many areas. Most, I imagine. But we do have grocery workers here sick. 

and it is feces, not urine, and I know a lot of people try not to poop at work. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Ktgrok

[Jean in Newcastle]

14 minutes ago, mom2samlibby said:

Our front line workers have been using the same toliets for the past 8 weeks, so this is something I wouldn't even worry about.   Walmart workers, grocery store workers, medical personal.  

 I would just wash my hands well, like I normally do.  

Since Walmart workers , grocery store workers and medical personnel are all groups who are known to have been infected, this doesn’t make any sense. 

[Matryoshka]

38 minutes ago, mom2samlibby said:

I would assume hospitals have toilets for their staff that aren't accessible to patients.  They would all be using those.  

My thought process is that if the toilet were the source of transmission, we would be seeing a lot more grocery store workers and Walmart workers getting sick.  

A local Walmart here now has 81 employees positive for Covid, all in the last week.

[KungFuPanda]

Portable composting toilet for your van?

[Pen]

 

In Hong Kong apartment block it seemed to be via fecal / sewage most likely.   Back in February or March.

 

then in April 

A couple of Police officers  were believed to get infected from

public toilets: 

“A police source said that the shared facilities in the regional police base are believed to be the source of infection.

After investigation, the city's health department decided to send around 130 male officers, who had possibly used the barracks toilet, to quarantine camp for 14 days, according to the source.”

 

————

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrasternlicht/2020/04/02/why-you-should-flush-with-the-lid-down-virologist-warns-of-fecal-oral-transmission-of-covid-19/

 

• Because of a phenomenon known as toilet plume, stool or urine can escape from the toilet into the air and spread disease, according to theAssociation for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology.
• Qingyan Chen, Purdue’s James. G. Dwyer Professor of Mechanical Engineering at Purdue University, told Forbes there’s one “very easy way to help prevent the spread of coronavirus: “Close the lid and then flush.”
• 80% of particles that escape from fecal matter into the air can be prevented by closing the lid when flushing, Chen told Forbes.
• To avoid getting COVID-19 when using a public bathroom you should wash your hands, then flush (using gloves or paper towel to avoid contact with the handle) to minimize contamination period—and wait one to two minutes to use a public bathroom after someone has finished, says Chen.
• The danger of fecal-oral transmission is higher for symptomatic people, so if you share a bathroom with a COVID-19 positive individual, disinfect the entire washroom with alcohol or ultraviolet light between uses, Chen also advises. 
• A study from the City University of Hong Kong found that: “A toilet flush can release up to 80,000 polluted droplets and leave them suspended a metre in the air for hours if the lid is left up,” according to the South China Morning Post.
• The researcher of this study, Alvin Lai said that “covering the toilet lid while flushing is definitely essential, but it should not be considered a complete prevention,” and advised  households to regularly clean bathrooms with diluted bleach, use ventilation and close the bathroom doors when not in use.

 

 

 

 

———-

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(20)30112-1/fulltext

“By its very design, the wastewater plumbing system is a harbinger of pathogenic microorganisms with, under some circumstances, the potential to enable airborne transmission of viruses such as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), which causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).

In 2003, WHO published a final report into a superspreading event of SARS within a housing block in Hong Kong.

¹ The 50-storey building had 342 confirmed cases of SARS and 42 deaths...”

 

 

 

[CAJinBE]

I've been wondering about the practicality of this also. Starting today we are allowed to walk with up to two friends (1.5 meters apart) as long as we don't go inside. My closest friend is probably 30 minutes away by car and they say we can drive a "limited distance" to do our exercise. So if we walked for one hour plus drive time it would be pushing the limit for me to find a bathroom and I don't think any are open for public use. Belgium has very few public toilets anyway. Grocery stores do not have them except for the big ones in malls but malls are not open. Most gas stations do not have them either except for the ones on the motorway. Today in addition to grocery stores and pharmacies they have allowed fabric stores to open so people can make masks. So not a lot of reason to leave the house yet.