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9 hours ago, Katy said:

 

Yes, that's what I'm saying.  If you were raised knowing your mother would never go in the sanctuary of another church, got angry at her church and then planned a wedding at the one place you knew she would not go?

Many or most JW's get married in civil ceremonies.  The choice of a different church was for manipulative effect only.

In my experience that is not accurate. Some do, it is still a valid marriage but I don’t think most do. 

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8 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

And yet her son knows that attending that wedding was within the bounds of her personal morality, but his wedding - not forbidden by her faith and something other JWs do- was against her personal morality. That's going to smart something fierce. 

Now, again, that's assuming he chose that place for good reason, not just to be a jerk. 

He hasn’t mentioned the other wedding in comparison to this other thing.  They aren’t the same thing.  He knows that.  

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3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Scarlett, perhaps I am missing something else (I mean obviously, I am missing a lot here lol) but what is the reason for the complete and total lack of clarity here?  Are the people involved on the board here and going to read it?  None of us can really figure out what is going on and there are bazillion assumptions being thrown around in this thread, and it's pretty much impossible for actual advice to be given when we don't know what the h@ll is going on.  

Well she said something along the lines of the specifics aren't important and she know many wouldn't agree with her decision.

I think what she really wants is comfort and advice that their relationship is salvageable. But the truth is no one can actually give her that since we don't know the specifics.

She is painting her son's actions in a very negative light but to me it just sounds like to rigid people having a huge disagreement that one person can't seem to live with and made the decision to cut ties with the other person. Whether out of immaturity or not I think his decision won't change because of the rigid personality of both people.

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5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

ETA: Did you skip your kid's wedding because someone ELSE attending had been disfellowshiped?  Like the bride's mother or something?

you can attend a wedding  of a relative who has another relative who is disfellowshiped who is  present.  I had this happen to me. My brother married someone who's father was disfellowshiped. He was at the wedding, he was not part of the wedding party and nobody not directly related to him spoke to him. 

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This is getting ridiculous. 

I feel like we are all on some kind of perverse game show where we have to keep making more and more outlandish guesses before we are given even a tiny crumb of actual additional information, and then we have to try to figure out what that tiny crumb means and how it fits in to the overall situation. And then we have to start guessing all over again.

As far as I can tell, the only things we know for sure are:

Scarlett’s son got married and she didn’t attend the wedding.

Scarlett’s son has been angry for the past three years about the situation where his 17yo friend was allowed to marry the guy who was in his late 20s, and that the girl’s father had been a mentor to Scarlett’s ds, and Scarlett’s ds felt that the man had lied to him about whether or not he would allow the girl to date and marry the guy, so he still feels that the man should be severely punished for approving the wedding. But that situation is completely unrelated to the current issue, and has nothing to do with her son’s wedding or why she didn’t attend. Scarlett related that story just to show us how rigid her son is, and how he obsesses over past perceived injustices.

Scarlett’s son is very angry with her. The assumption seems to be that he is angry because she refused to attend his wedding, but are we 100% sure that’s the reason why he is angry, or was the anger about something else and the result was that she ended up not attending the wedding? Do we know?

There has been speculation that maybe the son was married in a different religion, but that seems odd because both her son and new DIL are JW... but if a civil service is not against JW rules, it doesn’t make sense that she would have refused to attend on that basis. Her son would still be married. (Or would he still be living in sin according to JW rules? I don’t know! But if he took the time to get married instead of just moving in with his girlfriend, wouldn’t the venue be the couples’ choice? Why would a mother stay away from her child’s wedding just because she didn't approve of the venue?)

I am probably still getting most of this wrong! Feel free to correct me!

Clearly, I will not be winning any prizes on this game show. But I would like to know what’s really going on, because this rift between Scarlett and her son is not a game, and I know that many of us would like to help talk her through it and try to think of ways to help her mend their relationship.

 

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59 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Why are we saying it took place in a different faith venue? She wrote the above...do JW’s get offended if their child marries in a different JW building??

Is the woman perhaps no longer a JW, but once was? Is she a JW but perhaps her own parents aren’t so they chose a different venue? 

I think the son has every right to marry where he wants. I think a man has the right to put the wishes of his bride’s venue choice above his mother’s. I think young adults often lose patience and say hurtful things to their elders.

Since we’re all throwing out guesses while the OP refuses to say the truth about the situation( which I find odd because she’s always been upfront, honest, and  vocal about describing her life’s stories on this board) I’m going to say her beef with the son concerns the new daughter in law. Maybe she’s pregnant! Maybe she’s got a non JW parent! Maybe she’s got two moms!

See how ridiculous this is? She leaves out the one truth that is neede so you all can help ease her pain or anger or whatever she’s writing about on a public message board. 

Kudos to the boy’s marriage, OP! In your own religious fortitude, you have perhaps lost the relationship of a child and possibly grandchildren. Of course you’ll say it’s worth it. I hope your son and future family feel the same.

 

She said specifically (I think) that she was fine with the DIL and their relationship.  She didn't leave that truth out.

I will admit that I am rarely entirely forthcoming on this board, because often I want support or advice for a situation that I know people have probably experienced in similar forms, but if I describe the exact situation or request, the thread will focus on that and how (bigoted, stupid, evil, crazy, fanatic, patriarchal, anti-woman, etc.) I am.  So I can sympathize with Scarlett on this one.

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I stopped early on in page 2.

The thing about faith is that it's individual. You are supposed to do what God has called you to do and what I say doesn't matter. What this person says doesn't matter. God matters. I would absolutely choose my faith over my kids if the situation required it. I owe it to them to set that example.

I agree that this person is being manipulative. I don't expect it will stop.

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6 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

you can attend a wedding  of a relative who has another relative who is disfellowshiped who is  present.  I had this happen to me. My brother married someone who's father was disfellowshiped. He was at the wedding, he was not part of the wedding party and nobody not directly related to him spoke to him. 

 

Wow. I feel so sorry for that poor man. But good for him for attending his dd’s wedding despite knowing that most of the attendees wouldn’t talk to him, because it was more important for him to be there for his dd.

I can’t relate to the shunning thing at all. (I don’t know if the JWs call it that — sorry for not knowing the proper terminology.) If I was getting married and a lot of the guests were going to refuse to talk to my dad, I would choose my dad above all of them and tell them that they weren’t welcome to attend my wedding. I would choose my family over church members. (And ok, I wouldn’t be a part of a faith that would do something like that to someone in my family — or to anyone else, now that I think about it — so I guess I can’t relate to the situation at all.)

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Good grief people.  I swear I was only trying to not give out too much personal info.  No lying going on.  I don’t understand why everyone insists on me discussing the details.  I followed my conscience and my son is angry about it.  Period.  I said in my very first post the reason I posted.  I wondered if others had been through something similar and managed to regain the relationship.  A few people answered. (The poster who told about her sister trying to get her to watch an R rated movie and becoming angry when she refused—that was similar to my situation).  Most have only demanded to know the details before they could say.  I am not going to say the details.  I am not going to comment further on this thread.  Thanks for all who told their own  stories and also for the rabbit trails which I always enjoy.  

 

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25 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Okay I change my opinion based on my current confusion.  If she didn’t attend his wedding even if it was in an allowable venue, that’s a jerk move.  Unless it was completely disallowed by the religion I do think it’s the least damaging to make every effort to attend.

I thought we were saying it was in a venue she couldn’t attend in good conscience, not that she was just being stubborn and disowning him for this or that reason.  This whole thing is super super weird. What the heck?

Gotta say Scarlett, I kind of feel like you lied to us to get comfort under false pretenses, to be validated in areas you know we wouldn’t have done so if we’d known all the facts.  That’s deceptive and gross 😞

 

I think that for some people in some religions, there's an area of morality where the Law (that is, the absolute religious requirements) may be either unclear or left up to the conscience of the follower.  I'm not like 100% sure about Mormons, but the missionaries we had come visit us for a couple of months were pretty explicit about prayerful consideration of what is right in a certain situation, and I got the idea that while they adhered to the tenets of their religion, a lot was left up to this ongoing sort of conversation they were having with God.

I don't know why religious requirement would be seen as a more valid constriction of behavior than conscience (that is to say, morality without religious requirement).  Are you saying that non-religious people should just do whatever because there's no religious requirement for them to follow, so they have no excuse not to do whatever other people want them to do in any scenario?  I mean it makes no sense.

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2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Good grief people.  I swear I was only trying to not give out too much personal info.  No lying going on.  I don’t understand why everyone insists on me discussing the details.  I followed my conscience and my son is angry about it.  Period.  I said in my very first post the reason I posted.  I wondered if others had been through something similar and managed to regain the relationship.  A few people answered. (The poster who told about her sister trying to get her to watch an R rated movie and becoming angry when she refused—that was similar to my situation).  Most have only demanded to know the details before they could say.  I am not going to say the details.  I am not going to comment further on this thread.  Thanks for all who told their own  stories and also for the rabbit trails which I always enjoy.  

 

The second bolded is the reason for the the first bolded.  People can't say if they have been through something similar when they don't what things would actually BE similar.  

If you don't want to give details that's fine, but really, you can't expect a thread to be helpful of you refuse to explain what you want help with.  

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2 minutes ago, Slache said:

I stopped early on in page 2.

The thing about faith is that it's individual. You are supposed to do what God has called you to do and what I say doesn't matter. What this person says doesn't matter. God matters. I would absolutely choose my faith over my kids if the situation required it. I owe it to them to set that example.

I agree that this person is being manipulative. I don't expect it will stop.

That’s where I am at.  I don’t mind giving honest advice.  And it’s okay to not share on the board.  But this vague hypothetical that isn’t hypothetical is manipulative and mean.  It’s just messing with people for validation.  The better response is either messaging a few trusted people for some advice or commiseration, being a truth teller and actually engaging honestly, or just not saying anything at all.

There are plenty of religious situations and choices I don’t talk about on here.  Political ones too.  Parenting and marriage stuff.  It’s okay to be silent.  But I don’t make a habit of posting leading questions to get a bunch of attention while refusing to actually give information.

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Choosing your faith over your family isn't a matter of choosing your faith over your family, it's choosing to have faith in God's wisdom over your own.

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Well I dunno, I thought it was a helpful thread even without specifics.  I myself do often start vague threads, or even if it's a specific one I leave a lot of stuff out.  If I'm going to ask for book recs for my kids, for instance, I might say that I have a set of requirements, then list the ones I have that I think are at least marginally palatable to this board.  Of course I'm not going to list it all because I want to be able to keep talking to people here even though we have disagreements, and some of my views are waaaaaaaaaaay to the right of the board, so I just leave those out and filter on my own later.

It's not completely upfront but it does keep the thread from becoming an argument about a side issue that I don't really want to argue about when I'm asking for book recs, kwim?

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13 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

That’s where I am at.  I don’t mind giving honest advice.  And it’s okay to not share on the board.  But this vague hypothetical that isn’t hypothetical is manipulative and mean.  It’s just messing with people for validation.  The better response is either messaging a few trusted people for some advice or commiseration, being a truth teller and actually engaging honestly, or just not saying anything at all.

There are plenty of religious situations and choices I don’t talk about on here.  Political ones too.  Parenting and marriage stuff.  It’s okay to be silent.  But I don’t make a habit of posting leading questions to get a bunch of attention while refusing to actually give information.

To kind of springboard off this...

I think a better way this thread might have been handled would be something like

 

JAWM-dealing with the backlash of a hard decision

.....Something happened with my son.  I don't want to go into details.  My son is very angry with me and not speaking to me because of a decision I made.  It hurts me that he's so angry.  Please commiserate with me on this estrangement and remind me that God has a plan and will help me through this, even though I don't understand.

 

 

 

This would have resulted in a whole lot of "I am so sorry you are dealing with this" and "Hopefully you and your son will be able to reconcile" and "God will keep you strong" and all sorts of other helpful posts.  

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23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Good grief people.  I swear I was only trying to not give out too much personal info.  No lying going on.  I don’t understand why everyone insists on me discussing the details.  I followed my conscience and my son is angry about it.  Period.  I said in my very first post the reason I posted.  I wondered if others had been through something similar and managed to regain the relationship.  A few people answered. (The poster who told about her sister trying to get her to watch an R rated movie and becoming angry when she refused—that was similar to my situation).  Most have only demanded to know the details before they could say.  I am not going to say the details.  I am not going to comment further on this thread.  Thanks for all who told their own  stories and also for the rabbit trails which I always enjoy.  

 

 

Did anyone say you were lying? I hope no one said that! I didn’t think you were lying at all! It’s just that by providing little snippets of information, the end result seems to have been that people started guessing about what was going on, and the guesses seem to be a lot more scandalous than what probably actually happened.

You say you don’t want to give out any more details because you are concerned about being criticized, but if you feel so strongly about this issue that it caused you to not attend what may be the most important day in your son’s life, I would think that many of us would sympathize with you, even if we would have handled it differently. We all know you wouldn’t have missed your own son’s wedding without a lot of thought and consideration!

And that’s why the R-rated movie analogy isn’t helpful. It’s too minor a thing, and most people would probably think you would be petty and foolish not to attend your son’s wedding over such an inconsequential disagreement... but obviously this was something major and something you considered to be a big moral issue and something that went against your faith, so none of the analogies suggested in the thread would really apply here. 

If you are sure you were right to stay away from your son’s wedding and you know he is wrong to be angry with you, I’m puzzled as to why you don’t want to talk about it. Could it be that, in retrospect, you’re not 100% sure you were right, and you’re worried that people will point that out and make you regret not attending? Or are you just worried that people will argue with you and say you are being too rigid?

I know you say you have friends who agree with you and who will help you through this, but friends aren’t going to be able to take the place of your son, and his friends aren’t going to be able to replace his mother. I know your JW congregation is important to you, but would you really choose them above your own son? 

I know you said earlier in the thread that I wouldn’t understand this even if you explained it, but I keep putting myself in your shoes and imagining how heartbroken you must be that your son isn’t speaking to you, and I’m so sad for you that I would really like to try to understand. I guess a big part of this is because I feel like our sons have sort of grown up together on this forum and we have both always been very close to our sons, and because my son and I are still incredibly close, I want you to have that again with your son, too.

Edited by Catwoman
Typo!
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53 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

you can leave the JW church without being disfellowshiped. Disfellowshiped is a form of punishment, a casting out. you can leave or even just become inactive. it would not have any of the  shunning by family

From what I read you can stop attending and not be disfellowshipped, but attending another church would put you outside the church and potentially disfellowshipped. 

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57 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Okay I change my opinion based on my current confusion.  If she didn’t attend his wedding even if it was in an allowable venue, that’s a jerk move.  Unless it was completely disallowed by the religion I do think it’s the least damaging to make every effort to attend.

I thought we were saying it was in a venue she couldn’t attend in good conscience, not that she was just being stubborn and disowning him for this or that reason.  This whole thing is super super weird. What the heck?

Gotta say Scarlett, I kind of feel like you lied to us to get comfort under false pretenses, to be validated in areas you know we wouldn’t have done so if we’d known all the facts.  That’s deceptive and gross 😞

 

I was trying to find the post where someone accused Scarlett of lying, and I guess it was this one.

I don’t think Scarlett lied, but I do agree that she withheld important information that may have affected people’s responses. 

I think she was probably worried about sharing anything at all, but she was so upset that she wanted to start talking about it, yet she was too raw to deal with personal attacks and attacks on her religion. 

But we sure came up with enough juicy stories of our own to keep the ball rolling!

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2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I was trying to find the post where someone accused Scarlett of lying, and I guess it was this one.

I don’t think Scarlett lied, but I do agree that she withheld important information that may have affected people’s responses. 

I think she was probably worried about sharing anything at all, but she was so upset that she wanted to start talking about it, yet she was too raw to deal with personal attacks and attacks on her religion. 

But we sure came up with enough juicy stories of our own to keep the ball rolling!

 

Yep, sounds right

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10 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Maybe he's just doing that "I'm gonna show how big and tough and the boss of my own house I am" thing, while everyone five minutes older knows being mean to your mum is how you show how grown up you aren't yet.
 

 

Am I the only one who thinks we need a pinned thread called the "Quotable Rosie"?

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10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Heck, if the faith rules are such that she can't go into a different house of worship, I'd at that point, if unable to bring myself to go and violate that, go and be outside, and ask they open the doors so I could view it. Or ask them to livestream it via Skype, or somehow show my desire to support the couple although I can't attend. 

Which agains brings me to the question of - was there an attempt to reach a compromise before this actually happened?


My husband's great aunt was a JW. She was a highly intelligent woman and refused to let her church dictate her love of her family. We saw her for various family and holiday celebrations (she even brought gifts). No one was expected to adapt around her church, not even her children who left the JW's. She was never disfellowshipped over it and neither did she keep it a secret. 

On the other hand, one of my best friends, disfellowshipped, has had quite the opposite experience (which I will not go into in this thread....let's just say that it falls under many of the things that have been already mentioned by others and more).

I think I would draw the line at (a wedding in) a local, get teenagers to runaway across state lines, cult group that we have family members in. That would be my line. I have kids to protect.

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Scarlett, I am so sorry you had to make that choice. At the end of the day, we all have to live at peace with ourselves and our God.  I hope you can find that peace.  I know you would not have made this choice without a deep and sincere conviction, though I am sure it hurts.

I am glad that it sounds like both your DH and your X husband are supportive.

I know it is conjecture, but my story is that my husband’s family(outside of his parents and sister) refused to attend our wedding reception, as well as the entire church he had spent his entire 26 years in and serving.  We were not married in a church and were married in a very small ceremony by a non-Baptist minister.   This was apparently a very deep affront to his extended family and church. Ten and a half years later, some of the rifts between him and his extended family are being mended.   I don’t think his feelings towards church will ever change, but there are better relationships now between him and his family.  I am praying you can find that same healing and peace.

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47 minutes ago, moonflower said:

I will admit that I am rarely entirely forthcoming on this board, because often I want support or advice for a situation that I know people have probably experienced in similar forms, but if I describe the exact situation or request, the thread will focus on that and how (bigoted, stupid, evil, crazy, fanatic, patriarchal, anti-woman, etc.) I am.

 

This is true. This happens a lot, generally speaking, and not necessarily talking about this thread. On the other hand, along with those types of posts, are some really encouraging, thoughtful, enlightening, and supportive posts, which can potentially make a difference in how someone looks at a situation and can be helpful. Sometimes it's good to point out things that an OP may not be seeing, but nobody benefits from being flat out attacked.

Scarlett, I sincerely hope you are able to work this out with your son, no matter the circumstances. I'm betting that, in time, if that's what is in your heart, you will. I believe that there is always a way to mend a relationship if there is a desire.

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1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

I don’t think Scarlett lied, but I do agree that she withheld important information that may have affected people’s responses. 

And she didn't just withhold information, she purposely posted a misleading analogy in the OP,  comparing her plight to a woman whose enraged husband was trying to force her to have an abortion against her will. She portrayed herself as the entirely innocent victim of someone who tried to force her to commit a horrible, unconscionable act, and was irrationally and unjustifiably angry at her refusal. She knew perfectly well that people would not be nearly as sympathetic or supportive if they knew the real issue was that her son was extremely hurt and angry because she refused to attend his wedding, even though her religion did not forbid it. It may not have been an outright lie, but it was at best manipulative, and at worst purposely deceptive in order to gain attention and sympathy she would not have gotten if people knew the truth.

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7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

And she didn't just withhold information, she purposely posted a misleading analogy in the OP,  comparing her plight to a woman whose enraged husband was trying to force her to have an abortion against her will. She portrayed herself as the entirely innocent victim of someone who tried to force her to commit a horrible, unconscionable act, and was irrationally and unjustifiably angry at her refusal. She knew perfectly well that people would not be nearly as sympathetic or supportive if they knew the real issue was that her son was extremely hurt and angry because she refused to attend his wedding, even though her religion did not forbid it. It may not have been an outright lie, but it was at best manipulative, and at worst purposely deceptive in order to gain attention and sympathy she would not have gotten if people knew the truth.

 

I agree that none of the analogies have been helpful or useful, and that the original analogy, combined with Scarlett using a term like “horrific,” threw me completely in the wrong direction — I originally thought the thread was about a serious marital problem!  Someone trying to force a woman to have an abortion isn’t even remotely comparable to someone trying to get the same woman to attend their wedding. Or maybe it feels comparable to Scarlett because she knows the full story here and we don’t. 

And that’s the problem here — we still don’t know why she didn’t attend the wedding. She says she had a good reason, but that’s all we know. I am still on the fence about all of this because, while I can’t imagine any reason (faith-based or otherwise) why I would refuse to attend my own son’s wedding, I also know how much Scarlett loves her son, so I keep thinking that maybe she has a good reason that I haven’t considered. 

Ordinarily, I would think that maybe she simply hated the new DIL, but we know Scarlett likes the girl her son married, and it’s not like she thinks the girl is a serial killer or something, so I am at a complete loss as to what could have happened. Scarlett seemed to be saying that her son had done something that was strongly against her morals, but again, I have no clue as to what that might be.

This is all very confusing, and at this point it seems like it would be a lot easier for Scarlett to just explain what happened and let the chips fall where they may. She might get some criticism, but she will probably also get some very insightful replies that might help her figure out how to heal her relationship with her son. I am always amazed at how many people share similar experiences, even when they seem to come from entirely different backgrounds, and how kind they can be when it comes to sharing what did and didn’t work for them in a similar situation. Admittedly, I don’t have any experience with an adult child getting married, so I may be useless here, but I will still try to understand Scarlett’s position and be helpful if I can, and if I disagree with her reasons for not attending the wedding, I will try my best not to be mean about it, because she is obviously very upset and piling on her about it won’t solve anything.

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Scarlett, you asked if relationships can survive after something like this.  Honestly, no, I don't think they can.  They don't heal easily and if they do heal, the relationship doesn't go back to what it was before.  

You made your choice. You have your moral high ground, but you don't have your son. I really hope it was worth it. 😞

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I agree that my analogy with my sister and the offensive movie is no longer applicable.  To put it on a larger scale, though -- If my sister were to be starring in a similar show on Broadway, would I go?  Maybe.  I would probably cringe and maybe leave the theater for some of the scenes, but I would probably go to support my sister.  It would involve a discussion beforehand.  If she had purposely turned down an equal (yet less offensive role) and taken this one just to watch me squirm, nope, I wouldn't be going.  The analogy doesn't really work, though.

I think in Scarlett's situation, the facts that we don't know are whether Scarlett's son had another choice that would have been acceptable to her and how much of a sacrifice that would have been for the couple getting married.

I think that the relationship can be repaired (though maybe not completely restored) but it is going to take work and grace on both sides.

Hugs to you, Scarlett.  

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10 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Scarlett, you asked if relationships can survive after something like this.  Honestly, no, I don't think they can.  They don't heal easily and if they do heal, the relationship doesn't go back to what it was before.  

You made your choice. You have your moral high ground, but you don't have your son. I really hope it was worth it. 😞

 

I wish we knew what the “moral high ground” was. I can’t figure it out, so I am finding it hard to know how to feel about any of this.

I do know that I would prioritize my own son’s feelings over just about everything and everyone else, particularly if it came down to something as important and life-changing as his wedding, so it’s very difficult for me to understand how Scarlett is able to justify not attending her son’s wedding. Friends, family, and anyone else could stay home if they disapproved of what he was doing, but I would be there to support my child because he means everything to me and other people are a lot lower on the totem pole (and they would all be on my list for hurting my kid’s feelings, too, because I’m mean that way!)

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Part of me wonders of the son had some information that Scarlett may not know and that is fueling his anger.  Maybe no one knows but him but he doesn’t want to void a trust or is worried no one would believe him. 

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2 hours ago, Slache said:

I stopped early on in page 2.

The thing about faith is that it's individual. You are supposed to do what God has called you to do and what I say doesn't matter. What this person says doesn't matter. God matters. I would absolutely choose my faith over my kids if the situation required it. I owe it to them to set that example.

I agree that this person is being manipulative. I don't expect it will stop.

The problem with this idea when taken to the extreme is that people have used it throughout time and place to justify some pretty horrific things (murder, rape, child abuse, etc). Obviously we aren’t remotely talking about anything like that here, but if no one is accountable to anyone else (either inside or outside their faith) and is to act solely based on what they personally believe God is calling them to do, then it seems like there is at least the potential for bad things, both big and small, to result.

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2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

From what I read you can stop attending and not be disfellowshipped, but attending another church would put you outside the church and potentially disfellowshipped. 

 

Members are only disfellowshipped if they are baptized.  Her stepson didn't live with her for a long time, I'm guessing it's likely he never got baptized.  Typically JW do not get baptized as children, although there are a always few cases of 9-10 yo's.  The norm is usually teenagers.

Correction, not stepson.

Edited by goldberry

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11 minutes ago, Frances said:

The problem with this idea when taken to the extreme is that people have used it throughout time and place to justify some pretty horrific things (murder, rape, child abuse, etc). Obviously we aren’t remotely talking about anything like that here, but if no one is accountable to anyone else (either inside or outside their faith) and is to act solely based on what they personally believe God is calling them to do, then it seems like there is at least the potential for bad things, both big and small, to result.

All of this is against my faith, so I won't have this conundrum.

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23 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

Members are only disfellowshipped if they are baptized.  Her stepson didn't live with her for a long time, I'm guessing it's likely he never got baptized.  Typically JW do not get baptized as children, although there are a always few cases of 9-10 yo's.  The norm is usually teenagers.

 

But none of this is about her stepson, right? I thought this was all about her son. Or did I miss something??? 

(Slinking away to a corner to be confused again....)

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7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

But none of this is about her stepson, right? I thought this was all about her son. Or did I miss something??? 

(Slinking away to a corner to be confused again....)

No this is definitely about her son. She said her ex-husband spoke to him about it.

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1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

No this is definitely about her son. She said her ex-husband spoke to him about it.

 

Thanks! This thread has gotten so long that I was afraid I’d missed something!

Do we know if Scarlett’s ex-husband went to the wedding?

Edited by Catwoman
Forgot something!
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2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

No this is definitely about her son. She said her ex-husband spoke to him about it.

 

Sorry, hard to keep up!  Still may not be baptized though, you never know.

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5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Do we know if Scarlett’s ex-husband went to the wedding?

I was wondering the same thing. If the no good, terrible, bad guy ex went and she didn't, that's pretty bad. If he went and that's part of the reason she didn't go, that's even worse. And if neither of them went, that's just really sad. 😞 

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51 minutes ago, Frances said:

The problem with this idea when taken to the extreme is that people have used it throughout time and place to justify some pretty horrific things (murder, rape, child abuse, etc). Obviously we aren’t remotely talking about anything like that here, but if no one is accountable to anyone else (either inside or outside their faith) and is to act solely based on what they personally believe God is calling them to do, then it seems like there is at least the potential for bad things, both big and small, to result.

 

The problem with this is that you seem to ignore people have also done some really amazing good things in the name of religion too. Built hospitals and schools. The beatitudes are really extreme concepts historically.  Who are we kidding. Still are. 

I’m not sure what you even mean by accountable. Obviously none of us live on a deserted island. Abolishing religion doesn’t make people more accountable, kinder or whatever. 

Eta: People will twist into some wacky convoluted ideas to justify what they want to do or have done. Religion is just an easy scapegoat. It’s not like nonreligious people don’t do those things just as often.

Edited by Murphy101
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Have read the whole thread:

 

I like big family weddings, but I am increasingly convinced that people put far too much emphasis on this stuff.  Not just spending a lot of money or other silly things, but the idea that this is your one big day, and that if someone, even your mom, can't come because of religious convictions, it is ruined, your relationship is ruined.  

If you really want someone there, you make it possible for them to attend, you find a way. And if you really, really can't, you say, oh well.  It's one day.  We plan to be married for a lifetime, there will be plenty of times for mom to show her support.  

Somehow we have come to this social approach that says that people have to affirm us, like we think we will melt if they don't.

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18 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I was wondering the same thing. If the no good, terrible, bad guy ex went and she didn't, that's pretty bad. If he went and that's part of the reason she didn't go, that's even worse. And if neither of them went, that's just really sad. 😞 

I think he did go, and I don't think the issues between them had any impact on why she didn't go to the wedding. 

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3 hours ago, Slache said:

I stopped early on in page 2.

The thing about faith is that it's individual. You are supposed to do what God has called you to do and what I say doesn't matter. What this person says doesn't matter. God matters. I would absolutely choose my faith over my kids if the situation required it. I owe it to them to set that example.

I agree that this person is being manipulative. I don't expect it will stop.

Because faith is individual, my kids will not automatically follow in my faith.  They have their own choices to make.  So I am not going to get mad at them or disown them or shun them for exercising their free will.  God does not say that my responsibilities as a mother are nullified if my kids make choices that are different than my own.  (Obviously I have a responsibility towards God and society to set boundaries for my kids but to apply it to what they believe is a huge overstep of boundaries, in my opinion.) 

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6 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

It's one day.  We plan to be married for a lifetime, there will be plenty of times for mom to show her support.

I had zero interest in a big family wedding, and purposely eloped without telling anyone just to avoid a lot of drama. But for some people it's really not "just one day," it's the most important day of their lives, it's an event that permanently changes the course of their life, and it's really important to them to take that step surrounded by loved ones. I don't think their feelings are invalid just because I don't personally share them. It's not like missing a school play or a big athletic competition or something, where there will be future events to attend — hopefully this is the one and only wedding Scarlett's son will ever have. And for the rest of his life, he and his wife and their future children will be looking at a wedding album full of photos where the mother of the groom is conspicuously absent. That's not something that can be undone.

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18 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I had zero interest in a big family wedding, and purposely eloped without telling anyone just to avoid a lot of drama. But for some people it's really not "just one day," it's the most important day of their lives, it's an event that permanently changes the course of their life, and it's really important to them to take that step surrounded by loved ones. I don't think their feelings are invalid just because I don't personally share them. It's not like missing a school play or a big athletic competition or something, where there will be future events to attend — hopefully this is the one and only wedding Scarlett's son will ever have. And for the rest of his life, he and his wife and their future children will be looking at a wedding album full of photos where the mother of the groom is conspicuously absent. That's not something that can be undone.

 

I don't really know what it means to have feelings that are valid or invalid.  You have feelings.  If you are mature you try and put them in perspective.

It doesn't matter how much you think this is the one big day that will change the course of your life, it is a day.  Yes, it's a wedding, but it's really not more significant than everything that led up to it, or that will come after.  It is one thing to be disappointed that someone might not be there, and quite another to allow yourself to believe that must be a relationship defining moment, that somehow it changes everything that came before.  If you can argue that the other person ought to have put the relationship before principle or even preference, you can always turn that around on yourself.  And in the end if your principles and circumstances deserve respect, so do theirs.

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27 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Because faith is individual, my kids will not automatically follow in my faith.  They have their own choices to make.  So I am not going to get mad at them or disown them or shun them for exercising their free will.  God does not say that my responsibilities as a mother are nullified if my kids make choices that are different than my own.  (Obviously I have a responsibility towards God and society to set boundaries for my kids but to apply it to what they believe is a huge overstep of boundaries, in my opinion.) 

I can’t like this enough.   There’s a reason God gave (general, not specific) you the kids He did.  And He didn’t intend for them to be shunned if they make a mistake or make a different decision or whatever.    The importance of the mother-child relationship & father-child relationship is emphasized and prioritized in the Bible.   Now sometimes there are extenuating circumstances—kid has mental health issues or drug-related issues or whatever, where parents have to step back, pray, and let the chips fall where they may.  But this situation doesn’t sound like that.   This is sounding more and more like a disfellowship or really rigid thinking that can easily tear apart the family.  Someone remind me, but is disfellowship talked about in the Bible or is this a man-made thing?   I mean Jesus interacted with everyone and even ate with them in their homes.   

scarlett, go to ds and tell him you love him and you’re crazy about him.   And if he rejects the religion or some of it, or the people in the hall, or whatever,  tell him y’all won’t discuss that anymore.   His faith is his faith.  Your faith is yours.  But God gave you your son and you value that God-given relationship enough to spend time with him and love on him and dil and leave religion at the door for a bit.   That doesn’t mean you have to commune with the devil to make ds happy, just that you won’t discuss your religion with him.  Just be mom.   Don’t demand an apology (even if he owes you one), just hold him and say I love you.  And maybe take a pizza...they are broke newlyweds, after all. 😀

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43 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I had zero interest in a big family wedding, and purposely eloped without telling anyone just to avoid a lot of drama. But for some people it's really not "just one day," it's the most important day of their lives, it's an event that permanently changes the course of their life, and it's really important to them to take that step surrounded by loved ones. I don't think their feelings are invalid just because I don't personally share them. It's not like missing a school play or a big athletic competition or something, where there will be future events to attend — hopefully this is the one and only wedding Scarlett's son will ever have. And for the rest of his life, he and his wife and their future children will be looking at a wedding album full of photos where the mother of the groom is conspicuously absent. That's not something that can be undone.

 

I agree. And even if some people feel that their wedding day was “just one day,” it seems pretty clear that Scarlett’s ds didn’t share that sentiment, and that he was terribly hurt by her decision not to attend his wedding. 

Even if we remove the “wedding day” aspect of the situation, this was still a tremendously important day in the son’s life and it sounds like it was extremely important to him that his mom be there to share it with him.

I really wish we knew Scarlett’s reason for not attending. 

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I am sorry you are hurting, Scarlett. Truly. Given your feelings and those of your son (which you both knew), I have to believe you were both aware this could cause a schism. You have to be prepared to live with that until such time as forgiveness or grace is possible. It took almost 10 years to extend grace to my mother after a similarly deep rift (around the same time as I married DH, she chose someone else over me) and our relationship has never been the same. I accept her around my kids because she is good to them and I don't want to gift my scars unto the next generation. Thing is, I was busy working and living life with DH...I was happy. The ONLY thing that pushed me to try to salvage something was my kids. I know she was also hurt, anew, when I did not choose her to parent my kids if/when DH and I should die. It's a tremendous relief to me that my kids are now old enough to communicate directly with her (and they do with their own devices) and that I got through this well enough that they feel very comfortable doing that. I love my mom but she is not and will never be my close confidant. I can never fully trust her. My mom has taken to befriending my friends to learn more about me. It's sad. I hope better for you.

Edited by Sneezyone
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4 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I can’t like this enough.   There’s a reason God gave (general, not specific) you the kids He did.  And He didn’t intend for them to be shunned if they make a mistake or make a different decision or whatever.    The importance of the mother-child relationship & father-child relationship is emphasized and prioritized in the Bible.   Now sometimes there are extenuating circumstances—kid has mental health issues or drug-related issues or whatever, where parents have to step back, pray, and let the chips fall where they may.  But this situation doesn’t sound like that.   This is sounding more and more like a disfellowship or really rigid thinking that can easily tear apart the family.  Someone remind me, but is disfellowship talked about in the Bible or is this a man-made thing?   I mean Jesus interacted with everyone and even ate with them in their homes.   

scarlett, go to ds and tell him you love him and you’re crazy about him.   And if he rejects the religion or some of it, or the people in the hall, or whatever,  tell him y’all won’t discuss that anymore.   His faith is his faith.  Your faith is yours.  But God gave you your son and you value that God-given relationship enough to spend time with him and love on him and dil and leave religion at the door for a bit.   That doesn’t mean you have to commune with the devil to make ds happy, just that you won’t discuss your religion with him.  Just be mom.   Don’t demand an apology (even if he owes you one), just hold him and say I love you.  And maybe take a pizza...they are broke newlyweds, after all. 😀

 

I can’t figure out what’s going on, but whatever it is, Scarlett has to decide if being what she considers to be right is worth potentially losing her entire relationship with her son. 

She says she is willing to forgive him, but she doesn’t seem to be willing to make any compromises, and that doesn’t bode well for the future, particularly because her son seems pretty stubborn, too. I’m concerned that neither one of them will give an inch, and that their relationship will be irreparably damaged. I would hate to see that happen. 

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

 

The problem with this is that you seem to ignore people have also done some really amazing good things in the name of religion too. Built hospitals and schools. The beatitudes are really extreme concepts historically.  Who are we kidding. Still are. 

I’m not sure what you even mean by accountable. Obviously none of us live on a deserted island. Abolishing religion doesn’t make people more accountable, kinder or whatever. 

Eta: People will twist into some wacky convoluted ideas to justify what they want to do or have done. Religion is just an easy scapegoat. It’s not like nonreligious people don’t do those things just as often.

I’ve never said nor do I believe no good can come from religion. I’m also not advocating for abolishing religion. And I also didn’t say this is only a possible issue for religious people. I was merely responding to the idea that faith is personal and therefore everyone needs to behave according to what God is calling them personally to do and it doesn’t matter what anyone else says.

Edited by Frances
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And that’s the problem here — we still don’t know why she didn’t attend the wedding. She says she had a good reason, but that’s all we know. I am still on the fence about all of this because, while I can’t imagine any reason (faith-based or otherwise) why I would refuse to attend my own son’s wedding, I also know how much Scarlett loves her son, so I keep thinking that maybe she has a good reason that I haven’t considered. 

 

Another thing that comes to mind - and to be fair, Scarlett does not seem to have engaged in this, so I don't want to sound like I'm just jabbing at her! - her son probably had his reason for doing what he did too. I doubt it really was that analogous to "wanting to watch r-rated movie and getting pissy that Mom wouldn't watch with him". If we all are trusting that, whether or not we agree with her, Scarlett made her decision for some reason other than "I wanna get at my son and really hurt him" then I think it's fair to give him the same benefit of the doubt. Why did he have his wedding where he knew his mom wouldn't attend? IDK. He had a reason, and I'm sure it made sense to him. Given what all else we've heard about him on this thread, I'll bet good money that it involved HIS sense of morals, in that he felt for whatever reason that he could not, in good conscience, do what she would have liked here.

I could be wrong. Obviously he's not here to defend himself. But I just don't see him, based on what has been described, as deliberately choosing to spite his mom for no other reason than because he could.

(BTW, going back to my previous advice, slot this in. When you empathize with your son, Scarlett, try to focus on his reasons for making his choice rather than how hurt you felt. Because you care about him, you care about his reasons. Presumably he understands your reasons a heck of a lot better than I ever could, even though he doesn't agree with them.)

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5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Another thing that comes to mind - and to be fair, Scarlett does not seem to have engaged in this, so I don't want to sound like I'm just jabbing at her! - her son probably had his reason for doing what he did too. I doubt it really was that analogous to "wanting to watch r-rated movie and getting pissy that Mom wouldn't watch with him". If we all are trusting that, whether or not we agree with her, Scarlett made her decision for some reason other than "I wanna get at my son and really hurt him" then I think it's fair to give him the same benefit of the doubt. Why did he have his wedding where he knew his mom wouldn't attend? IDK. He had a reason, and I'm sure it made sense to him. Given what all else we've heard about him on this thread, I'll bet good money that it involved HIS sense of morals, in that he felt for whatever reason that he could not, in good conscience, do what she would have liked here.

I could be wrong. Obviously he's not here to defend himself. But I just don't see him, based on what has been described, as deliberately choosing to spite his mom for no other reason than because he could.

(BTW, going back to my previous advice, slot this in. When you empathize with your son, Scarlett, try to focus on his reasons for making his choice rather than how hurt you felt. Because you care about him, you care about his reasons. Presumably he understands your reasons a heck of a lot better than I ever could, even though he doesn't agree with them.)

 

That’s a good point!

Scarlett’s son does seem to have a very strong sense of right and wrong. He doesn’t seem to be the type of person who would deliberately do something wrong or immoral, and he has always been close to Scarlett, so it seems highly unusual that he would have intentionally tried to hurt her. 

I think that’s a big reason why I’m having so much trouble figuring this out.

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