.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

I honestly and truly cannot wrap my head around a religion that makes it against the moral code to attend my own child's wedding. 

Well it is not that simple.  At all. He set it up in a way he knew I could it approve of.  And then got angry at me for behaving the exact way everyone knew I would.  

[Acorn]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

I honestly and truly cannot wrap my head around a religion that makes it against the moral code to attend my own child's wedding. 

I completely agree. I did not get married in my dad’s church. It was upsetting to him and he had to bear my decision in regards to his siblings. However, the place of my wedding was a decision made by my spouse and me. We certainly expected our parents to be there even though it wasn’t the religion of any of them. Their love for us is bigger than their thoughts of locations.

[ktgrok]

Heck, if the faith rules are such that she can't go into a different house of worship, I'd at that point, if unable to bring myself to go and violate that, go and be outside, and ask they open the doors so I could view it. Or ask them to livestream it via Skype, or somehow show my desire to support the couple although I can't attend. 

Which agains brings me to the question of - was there an attempt to reach a compromise before this actually happened?

[Murphy101]

15 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Wow. 

Wanting your loving mother to be at your one and only wedding is narcissistic? Really?

And it wouldn't mean they don't think your faith doesn't matter, it would mean they thought there was a compromise to be had that allowed you to hold your faith and be at a once in a lifetime event that they very much want you to be at. That's not a horrible thing. 

 

Me?  I didn't call anyone narcissistic.  I think you are attributing malice in my post and there is none.  I think it is completely normal for people to want their way, to want to not be made uncomfortable when confronted by such things, to want those they love to want the same things as them.  Sure it can be because they are awful people, but usually it's just because they are normal people behaving in typical human ways to get what they want.  None of which means I have to give them what they want, sweet though their want might be, to prove my love for them.  

Edited September 16, 2019 by Murphy101

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

He wanted you to (insert thing) and you wouldn't.  He loves you and he was hurt and he was angry.  He obviously does not fully agree with your reasoning for not doing (insert thing).  He is lashing out in his hurt and anger.  Is the morally high-ground thing to do to respect your decision graciously because you are only honoring your conscience?  Sure.  But is it surprising that because of his emotions he is not seeing it that way?  No, not really surprising at all, considering his age as well as the intensity of emotion this would evoke.  He is taking it personally to him rather than the abstract of "a person respecting their conscience".  This is DEEPLY personal to him and he likely feels deeply hurt by it.  

I'm not saying you owe him an apology or are in the wrong.  But to view his anger as an attack on you personally...seems to me the same as him viewing YOUR choice as an attack on him personally.  Both are being clouded by the emotion of the moment.   Let it sit.  Keep being as much of a loving mom as you can, let him know however you can that you want a relationship with him.  Try VERY hard not to take it personally.  Yes, it's hard and it sucks, but it's the best way to move forward.  

Ok yes.I agree . 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Sometimes there is no compromise possible. I am really not following your line of thought. sometimes things are either right or wrong, there is not always a grey.

 

As in, an alternate neutral location, or two ceremonies, etc etc etc...often people from various faith backgrounds have to try to reach a compromise. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

 

Me?  I didn't call anyone narcissistic.  

I was quoting two posts, the other one I quoted in the same post did use the word narcissistic. 

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I honestly and truly cannot wrap my head around a religion that makes it against the moral code to attend my own child's wedding. 

 

Think of a different religious belief.  Many religions teach it is wrong to eat pork.  Including the church you were raised.  And you got really angry at the church you and your girlfriend were raised in, and you're even more angry that your mother is still part of this church you are angry at.  So you decide to make her choose between you and her faith by requiring that everyone eat pork to come into your wedding.  The pork has nothing to do with the way you were raised or what you believe.  It is only about controlling your mother's choice to stay in the religion you find hypocritical.  Still going to participate and let your brat of a barely adult child control your religious choices?

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

I can understand this. 

Of course, then you have the issue of what if his moral code requires a church wedding? Or the brides?

Honestly, what I don't get is why this wasn't discussed calmly and rationally ahead of time, and a compromise reached? Or is there no compromise possible, between the two faiths/moral codes/etc?

 

I believe both the boy and the girlfriend were raised JW.

[Scarlett]

9 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I can understand this. 

Of course, then you have the issue of what if his moral code requires a church wedding? Or the brides?

Honestly, what I don't get is why this wasn't discussed calmly and rationally ahead of time, and a compromise reached? Or is there no compromise possible, between the two faiths/moral codes/etc?

You are assuming it involves  two faiths.  It does not.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Scarlett

[Acorn]

I have spent most of this thread wondering if you were rejecting a birthday party invite. I’m feeling so sad to be guessing it was something much more important.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

 

Think of a different religious belief.  Many religions teach it is wrong to eat pork.  Including the church you were raised.  And you got really angry at the church you and your girlfriend were raised in, and you're even more angry that your mother is still part of this church you are angry at.  So you decide to make her choose between you and her faith by requiring that everyone eat pork to come into your wedding.  The pork has nothing to do with the way you were raised or what you believe.  It is only about controlling your mother's choice to stay in the religion you find hypocritical.  Still going to participate and let your brat of a barely adult child control your religious choices?

 

I believe both the boy and the girlfriend were raised JW.

Lol...yeah

[ktgrok]

So, google tells me this: A Jehovah's Witness is not forbidden, however, from attending a wedding or a funeral that occurs at a non-Witness service, such as at a Catholic cathedral, as long as he doesn't participate directly in the ceremony.

Is that wrong?

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Acorn said:

I have spent most of this thread wondering if you were rejecting a birthday party invite. I’m feeling so sad to be guessing it was something much more important.

Sorry.early on Jean made that reference.  

Why are you sad? 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

So, google tells me this: A Jehovah's Witness is not forbidden, however, from attending a wedding or a funeral that occurs at a non-Witness service, such as at a Catholic cathedral, as long as he doesn't participate directly in the ceremony.

Is that wrong?

Yeah,  not the situation here.  

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

So, google tells me this: A Jehovah's Witness is not forbidden, however, from attending a wedding or a funeral that occurs at a non-Witness service, such as at a Catholic cathedral, as long as he doesn't participate directly in the ceremony.

Is that wrong?

 

I think this might vary but I have multiple JW family members that won't even attend a funeral at a Southern Baptist church.  The funeral home is fine.

[Scarlett]

To be clear, I was not forbidden. It was my decision.  

[Acorn]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Sorry.early on Jean made that reference.  

Why are you sad? 

Did you skip your son’s wedding? 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

To be clear, I was not forbidden. It was my decision.  

So wait - your religious denomination says you could go, your son wanted you to go, and you chose not to? 

Your moral code allowed attending the wedding of an underage girl to an adult man, who had been pursing her since she was 14 years old, but that same moral code would not allow you to attend your son's wedding, even though your denomination says it is okay? Not even to stand in the foyer and watch? And you think he shouldn't be upset by that?

Edited September 16, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Scarlett]

Just now, Katy said:

 

I think this might vary but I have multiple JW family members that won't even attend a funeral at a Southern Baptist church.  The funeral home is fine.

Yep. 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Think of a different religious belief.  Many religions teach it is wrong to eat pork.  Including the church you were raised.  And you got really angry at the church you and your girlfriend were raised in, and you're even more angry that your mother is still part of this church you are angry at.  So you decide to make her choose between you and her faith by requiring that everyone eat pork to come into your wedding.  The pork has nothing to do with the way you were raised or what you believe.  It is only about controlling your mother's choice to stay in the religion you find hypocritical.  Still going to participate and let your brat of a barely adult child control your religious choices?

 

I believe both the boy and the girlfriend were raised JW.

You are postulating that the person is purposely trying to set it up to hurt the mother, versus just regular old getting married and they happen to only have pork on hand, so mom, could you come and just skip the entree please? 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

So wait - your religious denomination says you could go, your son wanted you to go, and you chose not to? 

 

It's a matter of conscience.  It's like if you work at a Catholic hospital and a woman comes in with a suspected ectopic pregnancy.  The nurse manager comes around and asks if everyone who will be on the care team is okay with terminating the pregnancy to save the woman's life.  The Catholic church has a stance that it's okay.  Not every Christian does, so no one forces a nurse to work with this patient.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

You are postulating that the person is purposely trying to set it up to hurt the mother, versus just regular old getting married and they happen to only have pork on hand, so mom, could you come and just skip the entree please? 

 

Yes, that's what I'm saying.  If you were raised knowing your mother would never go in the sanctuary of another church, got angry at her church and then planned a wedding at the one place you knew she would not go?

Many or most JW's get married in civil ceremonies.  The choice of a different church was for manipulative effect only.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

You are postulating that the person is purposely trying to set it up to hurt the mother, versus just regular old getting married and they happen to only have pork on hand, so mom, could you come and just skip the entree please? 

 

Yes.  Because Scarlett says he made arrangements knowing, same as everyone else they know, full well she wouldn't be able to do it.

So. Ouch.  Yes, that would hurt a mama. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Katy said:

 

It's a matter of conscience.  It's like if you work at a Catholic hospital and a woman comes in with a suspected ectopic pregnancy.  The nurse manager comes around and asks if everyone who will be on the care team is okay with terminating the pregnancy to save the woman's life.  The Catholic church has a stance that it's okay.  Not every Christian does, so no one forces a nurse to work with this patient.

So letting the woman die when there is a way to save her that is sanctioned by the church is a decision based on morals? 

Back to that idea in the other thread of more Catholic than the Pope. 

But in this situation, basically the mother HAS a valid way to attend the wedding and still be okay in the eyes of her church, and won't take it, and her son is upset and she's made her son is upset. Um, yeah, of course he's upset!

[Melissa in Australia]

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

So letting the woman die when there is a way to save her that is sanctioned by the church is a decision based on morals? 

Back to that idea in the other thread of more Catholic than the Pope. 

But in this situation, basically the mother HAS a valid way to attend the wedding and still be okay in the eyes of her church, and won't take it, and her son is upset and she's made her son is upset. Um, yeah, of course he's upset!

you don't know what the situation was. you are speculating then trying to stir up arguments for your speculation

Edited September 16, 2019 by Melissa in Australia

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

 

Yes, that's what I'm saying.  If you were raised knowing your mother would never go in the sanctuary of another church, got angry at her church and then planned a wedding at the one place you knew she would not go?

Many or most JW's get married in civil ceremonies.  The choice of a different church was for manipulative effect only.

You know her son and he told you this? Because based on what has been said, how on earth would you know that? Perhaps he has been attending another church for a while and has come to believe in the need for a church wedding? Or his wife has? We don't know. Maybe it was out of spite. Maybe it was for a real reason, and he thought that since it isn't forbidden by her faith, she'd come, given it is her only son. 

Just now, Murphy101 said:

 

Yes.  Because Scarlett says he made arrangements knowing, same as everyone else they know, full well she wouldn't be able to do it.

So. Ouch.  Yes, that would hurt a mama. 

Did he know though? I mean, if the faith doesn't forbid it, maybe he thought she'd be willing to go given it is her only son, and not actually outside the bounds of her faith. I get that he would have assumed wrongly, if that is what he thought, as she has a personal conviction that goes beyond what her faith requires. But it's not quite the same as if it was a hard and fast rule that everyone had to follow. 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

So letting the woman die when there is a way to save her that is sanctioned by the church is a decision based on morals? 

Back to that idea in the other thread of more Catholic than the Pope. 

But in this situation, basically the mother HAS a valid way to attend the wedding and still be okay in the eyes of her church, and won't take it, and her son is upset and she's made her son is upset. Um, yeah, of course he's upset!

 

No one ever accused a new evangelical convert of having a firm grasp of nuance or justice or mercy.

I think JW's teach much more so than other religions that you should follow your conscience.  And in this scenario if you know your mother's conscience tells her she will never go, he did this as an act of control of her religion, not because he at all aligned with whatever church they had the ceremony in.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

So letting the woman die when there is a way to save her that is sanctioned by the church is a decision based on morals? 

Back to that idea in the other thread of more Catholic than the Pope. 

But in this situation, basically the mother HAS a valid way to attend the wedding and still be okay in the eyes of her church, and won't take it, and her son is upset and she's made her son is upset. Um, yeah, of course he's upset!

I am much more concerned with pleasing God than ‘my church’.  Many people in my religion have done whet I did. Many have not  . 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

you don't know what the situation was. you are speculating then trying to stir up arguments for your speculation

Sorry, I meant the situation I described above. You are right in that what I described may have nothing to di with it, and they are arguing about something else entirely. 

But if it was his wedding, in another denomination's church, and as she stated it was not forbidden to attend, but a personal choice, then yeah, I can see he'd be upset. 

[goldberry]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Yes.  Because Scarlett says he made arrangements knowing, same as everyone else they know, full well she wouldn't be able to do it.

So. Ouch.  Yes, that would hurt a mama. 

 

It's possible it was the girl who made the choice of location, and possibly that he thought since it wasn't a hard and fast rule that she could see a way to make it work.  

Here's an example:  JW's prohibit blood transfusions but not organ transplants.  I knew a JW man whose personal conscience on the matter led him to refuse an organ transplant and subsequently led to his death.  His daughter, who was not a JW, was angry angry.  She was angry that he "could" have found a way but didn't.  Years later, she realized that for him, there wasn't a way.  His conscience was dictating, not church rules.  She still didn't agree with it, but eventually was less angry.  (Years later, however!)

But so yes, in the moment, it could seem hard to process.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

Sorry, I meant the situation I described above. You are right in that what I described may have nothing to di with it, and they are arguing about something else entirely. 

But if it was his wedding, in another denomination's church, and as she stated it was not forbidden to attend, but a personal choice, then yeah, I can see he'd be upset. 

 

But wait — did I miss something? Was Scarlett’s son married in another denomination’s church? I thought both he and his new wife were both JW. 

I’m totally confused now!

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I am much more concerned with pleasing God than ‘my church’.  Many people in my religion have done whet I did. Many have not  . 

So not pleasing to God - going into a sanctuary or even standing in the entry way for her only son's wedding

Pleasing to God - attending wedding of an  underage girl to a man who pursued her at 14 

And the son is supposed to understand this?

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I mean okay, if you’re dying of cancer and refusing IV chemo I could see his fury at you and asking you to turn on your convictions (out of fear of losing you) would make sense and be somewhat justified.

 

Otherwise....? He sounds like an inflexible ass, but time helps cool that.

To be fair, they both seem inflexible, if no compromise was attempted before hand. 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

You know her son and he told you this? Because based on what has been said, how on earth would you know that? Perhaps he has been attending another church for a while and has come to believe in the need for a church wedding? Or his wife has? We don't know. Maybe it was out of spite. Maybe it was for a real reason, and he thought that since it isn't forbidden by her faith, she'd come, given it is her only son. 

Did he know though? I mean, if the faith doesn't forbid it, maybe he thought she'd be willing to go given it is her only son, and not actually outside the bounds of her faith. I get that he would have assumed wrongly, if that is what he thought, as she has a personal conviction that goes beyond what her faith requires. But it's not quite the same as if it was a hard and fast rule that everyone had to follow. 

 

No, despite having lived somewhat close to Scarlett for a while I never met her or her son.  I'm going by the drama that happened in my family when a JW cousin married a Southern Baptist.

The official teaching is it's not a great idea but follow your conscience, and he was raised knowing she would NEVER do it because her conscience said not to. 

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

I mean okay, if you’re dying of cancer and refusing IV chemo I could see his fury at you and asking you to turn on your convictions (out of fear of losing you) would make sense and be somewhat justified.

 

Otherwise....? He sounds like an inflexible ass, but time helps cool that.

Why does wanting his own mother to attend his wedding make him an inflexible ass???

[WendyLady]

I’m so sorry, regardless of the reasons, I can imagine that you are both hurting. 

I attend a religious tradition where not all family members are able to attend a wedding inside of the temple. A close family member was not able to attend their child’s wedding two years ago, and it it still a matter of heart ache for that family member. Tears are still shed even now over not being present.

A wedding is a huge life event, and even when missing that event is the only choice, it is understandable that feelings are going to run very close to the heart, and it may take a long time to find a path past that hurt.

Congratulations to your son! It sounds like your new dil may be the bridge that can bring your family even closer. 

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe he's just doing that "I'm gonna show how big and tough and the boss of my own house I am" thing, while everyone five minutes older knows being mean to your mum is how you show how grown up you aren't yet.
 

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

 

No, despite having lived somewhat close to Scarlett for a while I never met her or her son.  I'm going by the drama that happened in my family when a JW cousin married a Southern Baptist.

 

Ok, well I'd say the presuming motives for someone you don't know, and have no details on, and then stating them as fact might not be accurate nor appropriate. 

 IF he chose that location JUST to hurt or manipulate or anger his mother, yup, that's pretty terrible and a total jerk move, and I get all the drama. 

But we don't know that. There are tons of reasons he may have chosen that location, and she hasn't shared what his were. If his reasons were NOT to try to hurt his mother, or manipulate her, than stating that as fact isn't right. 

[Catwoman]

 

3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Is that what is actually is?  I thought she said the wedding wasn’t a part of it earlier in the thread?

 

Thank goodness I’m not the only one who is confused!  I didn’t even know for sure that her son wanted her at the wedding at all!

Come sit by me. 🙂

[ktgrok]

And I'm still wondering if some kind of compromise was attempted way ahead of time? Like, "I know you want to be married in that church, but I just can't attend. I will, however, set up the reception while you are at the ceremony so everything is ready, and will pay for a videographer so I can watch it with you and celebrate your happiness" or "I can't attend if you do it in that church - but I want to be there. Would you and soon to be DIL be open to having the legal ceremony at the beach/mountains/park/justice of the peace so I can attend, and then have a blessing later at your church?"

Preferably this could even be discussed with the religious leaders in question, for their guidance?

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

So not pleasing to God - going into a sanctuary or even standing in the entry way for her only son's wedding

Pleasing to God - attending wedding of an  underage girl to a man who pursued her at 14 

And the son is supposed to understand this?

 

Wait.  Did she attend that wedding?  I don't know.  If so, yeah that's messed up.  I thought he was ticked because there wasn't a public shaming and the man was only removed from standing in the community?

 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

would think it would have to be a serious concern for her and not something she did out of spite or a decision she took lightly. 

I definitely don't think she would do that out of spite, i just am not willing to leap to the conclusion that he did this out of spite, either. 

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

Is that what is actually is?  I thought she said the wedding wasn’t a part of it earlier in the thread?

There are two different weddings involved: (1) a wedding that happened a while ago with an underage girl, and her son is apparently still mad about the father's complicity in it, and (2) her son's wedding, which happened on Friday and which Scarlett refused to attend, even though she says her church would not have forbidden it.

[ktgrok]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

 

Wait.  Did she attend that wedding?  I don't know.  If so, yeah that's messed up.  I thought he was ticked because there wasn't a public shaming and the man was only removed from standing in the community?

 

She did attend it. He wouldn't, but she did. And it wasn't just that the man was a decade older, and the bride was underage, but also that the adult man had been pursuing her since she was 14 or 15. 

Now, I'm of the "I'll attend almost any wedding" standard, which makes me the odd man out. But attending that one and NOT her son's, even though her denomination allows it, and saying it is about morality...I can see where he'd be confused and hurt. Even if she hadn't attended other weddings at other churches in the past - and really, there is a halfway decent chance that never came up. 

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I definitely don't think she would do that out of spite, i just am not willing to leap to the conclusion that he did this out of spite, either. 

 

I'd be with you.  I usually agree with most of your conclusions. Except everyone that's spoken to him about it, including his own father, say Scarlett is in the right and he's being an immature jerk.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

There are two different weddings involved: (1) a wedding that happened a while ago with an underage girl, and her son is apparently still mad about the father's complicity in it, and (2) her son's wedding, which happened on Friday and which Scarlett refused to attend, even though she says her church would not have forbidden it.

 

Thanks! I had missed the bolded part. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

 

I'd be with you.  I usually agree with most of your conclusions. Except everyone that's spoken to him about it, including his own father, say Scarlett is in the right and he's being an immature jerk.

But that's about him expecting her to attend, I believe. Not about why he chose the venue. 

[Melissa in Australia]

hang on - I don't think she said if she did or didn't attend. wasn't that people guessing?

[Catwoman]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

But that's about him expecting her to attend, I believe. Not about why he chose the venue. 

 

Still trying to catch up here....

Did he expect her to attend? What venue did he choose?

Do we know? 

I swear I have been reading all of the posts, but with all of the speculation and conjecture flying around, I’m having trouble keeping track of what actually happened!

[Katy]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

But that's about him expecting her to attend, I believe. Not about why he chose the venue. 

 

Maybe.  I just can't imagine that a boy from a rural area in the South, where attending funerals of people you barely know is practically a hobby, wouldn't know that his mother would never attend an event in the sanctuary of another faith.