.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Oh yeah, this describes dd2.

She was evangelical, and it came from a good place, of wanting to share harms she was scared we'd expose ourselves to (the eggs) and goods we could embrace if only we knew we could.

We've actually removed many animal products from our diet since, and her example is probably part of that, but it did confuse and upset her that we are not moving at the pace she did. 

We're struggling with this as well-I think it is normal for teens to embrace something with the zeal of a religious convert, and become downright evangelical about it-and then be hurt that others do not immediately see the light. And I think it is also natural for them to reject something that they have been raised to believe, or at least go through a period of questioning it, like starting to notice hypocracy in the church they have been raised in, and to embrace that with evangelical zeal. It's tough, especially when the adults have already gone through that stage and decided on their particular area of compromises and where they are comfortable ethically-which probably isn't nearly as extreme.

[katilac]

{{hugs}} 

I hope you guys get to a better place soon. 

[catz]

Scarlet - you have been very forthcoming on this board.  More forthcoming than many would ever be on a public board.  You've shared intimate details of your step son's issues and your background.  I think it's very odd that you are being so vague on this particular issue but letting this thread continue?

I'm sorry you're suffering.  Young adults are hard.   Your son sounds very immature from what you've presented and it's hard to imagine marriage going well.  But that said if you didn't attend his wedding, I can see why he would be hurt and pull away even if he is behaving badly.  Him changing his faith wouldn't be a deal breaker for me either.  But it's pure speculation.

[Murphy101]

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

No heads don’t need to roll...I mean he literally thinks a few key people should be publicly  shamed or something.  He just can’t let it go.  Some of it is just stuff that is unwise personal decisions but not sinful and not his business.  

 

He is that upset about something that isn't even sinful?  That's.... rather drastic a reaction isn't it?  I'm trying to fathom something that difficult that isn't also a sin and honestly coming up blank.

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

No.  Not at all. He married the girl he has been dating for a year. The  ‘thing’ he is mad at me about is unrelated to them as a couple.  He will have to grow up and come around to seeing I did what I felt was right.  I wish them well but I am a little concerned that his ‘my wayor the highway approach won’t serve him well in a marriage.’

 

Does his new wife feel the same way about this issue? Were you able to attend the wedding?

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It didn’t just happen.  This has been going on for the entire summer...frankly I am exhausted from trying to be the bigger person and get through each day.  What would you have me do Cat? Lie down and collapse completely?  I still have to get up and breath every day, be a wife, a step mom a daughter a worshiper of my God.  One person turning on me for keeping my faith should be allowed to destroy the rest of my life?

 

How, exactly, is he demanding you turn from your faith? I honestly don't think you will get much help here without that information.

I'm Roman Catholic.  There's plenty of folks who think no one should be Catholic these days thanks to evil doers in our apple barrels.  Thankfully, none of my kids think that.  However, if they had qualms about our parish that were legit I would and have had to seriously consider that.  

[moonflower]

2 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Scarlet - you have been very forthcoming on this board.  More forthcoming than many would ever be on a public board.  You've shared intimate details of your step son's issues and your background.  I think it's very odd that you are being so vague on this particular issue but letting this thread continue?

I'm sorry you're suffering.  Young adults are hard.   Your son sounds very immature from what you've presented and it's hard to imagine marriage going well.  But that said if you didn't attend his wedding, I can see why he would be hurt and pull away even if he is behaving badly.  Him changing his faith wouldn't be a deal breaker for me either.  But it's pure speculation.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this issue is a lot closer to the pain of her heart than her stepson's weight or her son's inability to get the laundry done correctly.

[Murphy101]

I can think of a couple instances where I would not attend a wedding.

If I knew they were not intending to have a sacramental wedding but wanted a church wedding for non sacrament reasons.  Such as, "It's so pretty!" Or "My grandma a wants a catholic wedding." - these are actual reasons I've heard people get turned down for having weddings in a Catholic Church.  While I hope all my kids have wonderful and valid Catholic weddings and marriages, if that is not what they are committing to - I'd rather they have a civil wedding than commit blasphemy.  And sad as I'd be about the civil wedding, I'd most likely happily go and just keep praying for spiritual growth in their lives.

I would not attend a same sex wedding.

I would not attend a wedding that required I break the bank to go.  We have actually not attended many weddings over the years for this reason.  Apparently super expensive, time and travel intensive, black tie weddings sans children are all the rage.  While that's their choice, an irresponsible one imnsho, I am not going to go into debt to attend their wedding.  And frankly, I'd be really hurt if any of my kids expected that of us.

edited for tmi 🙂

Edited September 15, 2019 by Murphy101
l.

[catz]

40 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this issue is a lot closer to the pain of her heart than her stepson's weight or her son's inability to get the laundry done correctly.

I don't doubt that.  But then why start a thread about it?  No one can actually comment in a meaningful way or give their actual thoughts. 

And I don't think anyone should minimize sharing so much of someone else's weight struggles.  I highly doubt the SS would have been ok with those intimate details posted.    That is an issue that is no doubt close to his heart.

[moonflower]

Yes, I agree about the stepson, and I was generally critical in those threads; this thread is not about that, though, and it makes sense to me that it's more delicate for Scarlett given her disposition towards the two issues.

I gathered that she started a thread about it to gain perspective on what other people have done or thought or would think when going through something similar - the specific circumstance is not as important, maybe, as just the dynamic.  I mean, we on this thread have shared similar experiences from veganism to religious differences to just run-of-the-mill why-me-ism, and it's been helpful for me if it hasn't been for Scarlett 🙂

[Catwoman]

37 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Scarlet, I am completely confused about just what is going on and without more information I think it's going to be very difficult for anyone to give you any useful advice.  

 

I agree. On the other hand, I can understand that it’s a very personal thing and that she started the thread at a time when she was incredibly upset and was mainly looking for support. 

I won’t lie, though — I keep trying to piece her posts together to try to figure out what’s going on. It seems as though it involves something that happened at her church and her son thinks it’s unforgivable and Scarlett thinks it’s bad but not unforgivable, and her son is insisting that she should leave her church over it. But I could be completely misinterpreting what’s going on.

I know this is probably completely wrong, but I am starting to wonder if there was some kind of abuse going on in that congregation and the son’s new wife was a victim of that abuse. That might explain why he would be so angry. It might also explain why there doesn’t appear to have been a traditional church wedding. But again, that’s total conjecture. I hope it’s nothing as bad as that. But it has to be something very significant, right? Otherwise, Scarlett’s son wouldn’t have been angry about it for the past three years. (I’m pretty sure she said in an earlier post that it has been three years.)

Whatever happened, I’m very sad for both Scarlett and her son, because they were always so close. 

[Catwoman]

19 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I don't doubt that.  But then why start a thread about it?  No one can actually comment in a meaningful way or give their actual thoughts. 

And I don't think anyone should minimize sharing so much of someone else's weight struggles.  I highly doubt the SS would have been ok with those intimate details posted.    That is an issue that is no doubt close to his heart.

 

12 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Yes, I agree about the stepson, and I was generally critical in those threads; this thread is not about that, though, and it makes sense to me that it's more delicate for Scarlett given her disposition towards the two issues.

I gathered that she started a thread about it to gain perspective on what other people have done or thought or would think when going through something similar - the specific circumstance is not as important, maybe, as just the dynamic.  I mean, we on this thread have shared similar experiences from veganism to religious differences to just run-of-the-mill why-me-ism, and it's been helpful for me if it hasn't been for Scarlett 🙂

 

I agree — I was thinking that she started the thread because she was upset and she needed to talk to someone, yet she was feeling too raw and she wasn’t up to dealing with criticism about how she was handling the situation, so she was concerned about sharing too many details. I can understand that. 

But at this point, I have a feeling that our own personal speculations are probably far worse than what is actually going on. I know that my mind has been going in several different directions and each scenario is more bizarre and tragic than the one before it. I wish we knew the whole story so maybe we could give Scarlett some ideas about how to mend her relationship with her son, yet I can also see her side of this and realize how hard it would be to type it all out and post it here. 

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree. On the other hand, I can understand that it’s a very personal thing and that she started the thread at a time when she was incredibly upset and was mainly looking for support. 

I won’t lie, though — I keep trying to piece her posts together to try to figure out what’s going on. It seems as though it involves something that happened at her church and her son thinks it’s unforgivable and Scarlett thinks it’s bad but not unforgivable, and her son is insisting that she should leave her church over it. But I could be completely misinterpreting what’s going on.

I know this is probably completely wrong, but I am starting to wonder if there was some kind of abuse going on in that congregation and the son’s new wife was a victim of that abuse. That might explain why he would be so angry. It might also explain why there doesn’t appear to have been a traditional church wedding. But again, that’s total conjecture. I hope it’s nothing as bad as that. But it has to be something very significant, right? Otherwise, Scarlett’s son wouldn’t have been angry about it for the past three years. (I’m pretty sure she said in an earlier post that it has been three years.)

Whatever happened, I’m very sad for both Scarlett and her son, because they were always so close. 

No time to post much, but I want to say that not one thing you speculated is correct.  Not at all. And what my son is angry about in our congregation  is unrelated to what he is mad at me about.  

I wil post more later.  

[Catwoman]

Just now, Scarlett said:

No time to post much, but I want to say that not one thing you speculated is correct.  Not at all. And what my son is angry about in our congregation  is unrelated to what he is mad at me about.  

I wil post more later.  

 

I am relieved to hear that I was wrong! Thank you for letting me know!

 

[historically accurate]

Scarlett, I just wanted to jump in here and give you a hug. I have no idea what is going on, but I know if my child was not speaking to me and had been angry for 3 years, I would be heartsick, so just big hugs for you. 

[ktgrok]

 At my church today the gospel was the passage about the shepherd searching for his lost sheep. And the woman searching for her lost queen. It was a good counterbalance to the scripture talked about in the thread earlier about the father not chasing after the prodigal son. That is true, and yet the shepherd did chase after the sheep. One more place where scripture presents two different scenarios and it is up to us to decide which applies more to the situation I guess. 

[Frances]

59 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I can think of a couple instances where I would not attend a wedding.

If I knew they were not intending to have a sacramental wedding but wanted a church wedding for non sacrament reasons.  Such as, "It's so pretty!" Or "My grandma a wants a catholic wedding." - these are actual reasons I've heard people get turned down for having weddings in a Catholic Church.  While I hope all my kids have wonderful and valid Catholic weddings and marriages, if that is not what they are committing to - I'd rather they have a civil wedding than commit blasphemy.  And sad as I'd be about the civil wedding, I'd most likely happily go and just keep praying for spiritual growth in their lives.

I would not attend a same sex wedding.

I would not attend a wedding that required I break the bank to go.  We have actually not attended many weddings over the years for this reason.  Apparently super expensive, time and travel intensive, black tie weddings sans children are all the rage.  While that's their choice, an irresponsible one imnsho, I am not going to go into debt to attend their wedding.  And frankly, I'd be really hurt if any of my kids expected that of us.

edited for tmi 🙂

While I too am absolutely no fan of the type of wedding you describe in your third paragraph, I can’t imagine not attending if it was my child’s wedding. I too have made the decision not to attending weddings due to cost or location, but for my child, it would be quite different. 

Maybe I have you confused with someone else, but I think I recall you posting awhile back looking for scuba or snorkeling destinations around the world, including Japan, for vacations you were planning. Paying for you and your spouse to attend an expensive destination wedding for a child would seem to be in the same ballpark. But please forgive me if I have you confused with someone else.

 

[Wheres Toto]

27 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree. On the other hand, I can understand that it’s a very personal thing and that she started the thread at a time when she was incredibly upset and was mainly looking for support. 

I won’t lie, though — I keep trying to piece her posts together to try to figure out what’s going on. It seems as though it involves something that happened at her church and her son thinks it’s unforgivable and Scarlett thinks it’s bad but not unforgivable, and her son is insisting that she should leave her church over it. But I could be completely misinterpreting what’s going on.

I know this is probably completely wrong, but I am starting to wonder if there was some kind of abuse going on in that congregation and the son’s new wife was a victim of that abuse. That might explain why he would be so angry. It might also explain why there doesn’t appear to have been a traditional church wedding. But again, that’s total conjecture. I hope it’s nothing as bad as that. But it has to be something very significant, right? Otherwise, Scarlett’s son wouldn’t have been angry about it for the past three years. (I’m pretty sure she said in an earlier post that it has been three years.)

Whatever happened, I’m very sad for both Scarlett and her son, because they were always so close. 

 

I thought the cause of the 3 years of anger was separate from the current not speaking to her issue.    Otherwise, why is he all of a sudden not speaking to her after being angry for three years if nothing new has happened? 

[Catwoman]

8 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

 

I thought the cause of the 3 years of anger was separate from the current not speaking to her issue.    Otherwise, why is he all of a sudden not speaking to her after being angry for three years if nothing new has happened? 

 

You’re probably right. I’m very confused!

But when she said in earlier posts that this was about something immoral and about her faith, I guess it all tied together in my mind. I was thinking (incorrectly!) that he had been angry for 3 years about the church stuff, but that things have gotten really bad within the last 3 months, and that everything came to a head recently, maybe having something to do with the son’s wedding plans. 

But pay no attention to me! I am just trying to put all of the cryptic messages together and tie them all up into one story, and I’m apparently doing a lousy job of it. 🙂

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

I can think of a couple instances where I would not attend a wedding.

If I knew they were not intending to have a sacramental wedding but wanted a church wedding for non sacrament reasons.  Such as, "It's so pretty!" Or "My grandma a wants a catholic wedding." - these are actual reasons I've heard people get turned down for having weddings in a Catholic Church.  While I hope all my kids have wonderful and valid Catholic weddings and marriages, if that is not what they are committing to - I'd rather they have a civil wedding than commit blasphemy.  And sad as I'd be about the civil wedding, I'd most likely happily go and just keep praying for spiritual growth in their lives.

I would not attend a same sex wedding.

I would not attend a wedding that required I break the bank to go.  We have actually not attended many weddings over the years for this reason.  Apparently super expensive, time and travel intensive, black tie weddings sans children are all the rage.  While that's their choice, an irresponsible one imnsho, I am not going to go into debt to attend their wedding.  And frankly, I'd be really hurt if any of my kids expected that of us.

edited for tmi 🙂

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

[Frances]

On 9/15/2019 at 9:39 AM, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

Nm

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[Frances]

26 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

And I bet many of the same people would go to the wedding of a divorced person, even if they considered divorce to be a sin.

[DawnM]

30 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

 

My cousin's daughter married a woman.  No one in the family went.  Not her parents, grandparents, or aunts or uncles.  I wasn't invited and didn't even know it happened until after the fact.  

[hippiemamato3]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

No.  Not at all. He married the girl he has been dating for a year. The  ‘thing’ he is mad at me about is unrelated to them as a couple.  He will have to grow up and come around to seeing I did what I felt was right.  I wish them well but I am a little concerned that his ‘my wayor the highway approach won’t serve him well in a marriage.’

 

Your son got married?! Congrats!! 

[DawnM]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

No.  Not at all. He married the girl he has been dating for a year. The  ‘thing’ he is mad at me about is unrelated to them as a couple.  He will have to grow up and come around to seeing I did what I felt was right.  I wish them well but I am a little concerned that his ‘my wayor the highway approach won’t serve him well in a marriage.’

 

 

WHAT?  Did you not go to the wedding?  Did they have a wedding?  

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

While I too am absolutely no fan of the type of wedding you describe in your third paragraph, I can’t imagine not attending if it was my child’s wedding. I too have made the decision not to attending weddings due to cost or location, but for my child, it would be quite different. 

Maybe I have you confused with someone else, but I think I recall you posting awhile back looking for scuba or snorkeling destinations around the world, including Japan, for vacations you were planning. Paying for you and your spouse to attend an expensive destination wedding for a child would seem to be in the same ballpark. But please forgive me if I have you confused with someone else.

 

Sure I travel twice a year for scuba with girlfriends who split the cost and I accrue zero debt for those travels.  And we plan those trips nearly a year in advance.  And we go international not just for the blue waters, but because it’s a fraction of the cost of traveling in the US. You’d possibly be very surprised that it’s more affordable than I for sure ever thought it could be  

Scuba or child wedding, if it required debt to go - I would not be attending bc I can’t accrue debt at this time in my life without significant long term difficulty. Presuming I could even get the debt anyways. Credit isn’t something everyone has. None of which is news to any of my kids and thus why I’d be very upset if they planned a wedding like that - it would feel like they didn’t even want me or several of their siblings to attend. 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

 

Bull.  You know very well there's plenty of people who think same sex marriages are not okay and are a sin.  It's not news to anyone on this forum or elsewhere in the world.

52 minutes ago, Frances said:

My mom is a devout, life long Catholic and you better believe she will be at the wedding of her gay grandson. She would never dream of missing it despite serious health issues that make travel very difficult and painful.

 

So what? There's lots of supposedly "devout" Catholics that do things or accept things that the Catholic Church actually says they shouldn't.  Birth control, sleepinin instead of going to mass,... Nothing new there.

46 minutes ago, Frances said:

And I bet many of the same people would go to the wedding of a divorced person, even if they considered divorce to be a sin.

 

*shrug* Probably. Me? Depends on the situation.  Generally speaking, I don't presume divorce is a sin. 

[Frances]

On 9/15/2019 at 11:08 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

Bull.  You know very well there's plenty of people who think same sex marriages are not okay and are a sin.  It's not news to anyone on this forum or elsewhere in the world.

 

So what? There's lots of supposedly "devout" Catholics that do things or accept things that the Catholic Church actually says they shouldn't.  Birth control, sleepinin instead of going to mass,... Nothing new there.

 

*shrug* Probably. Me? Depends on the situation.  Generally speaking, I don't presume divorce is a sin. 

Nm

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[ktgrok]

Another interesting thing that came up today in the sermon/.homily was it was explained that Jesus sitting with sinners/tax collectors would be considered to be accepting them, as they were. To eat with someone was to accept them, to make them part of your insider group, not an outsider. I found that interesting to think about, given that we are discussing if attending an event is considered acceptance of them or the event. Not exactly parallel, but interesting that it came up today. 

[Murphy101]

7 minutes ago, Frances said:

My mom’s faith is not her grandson’s faith. Her going to his wedding has nothing to do with whether or not she thinks gay marriage is wrong or what the Catholic Church teaches about marriage. She is not imposing her beliefs on her adult grandson because that is not her place or her role.

 

One, your mom has the freedom to do anything she wants and so does her grandson.

Two, because or point one, it is not imposing anything on someone to simply refuse to participate in things I view as sins.  Whether your mom went or not doesn't impose anything on him.  He can still choose to do whatever he wants, whether she likes it or not.  

Edited September 15, 2019 by Murphy101

[Selkie]

13 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Bull.  You know very well there's plenty of people who think same sex marriages are not okay and are a sin.  It's not news to anyone on this forum or elsewhere in the world.

 

I didn't say I'm not aware that it happens, I said I find it mind boggling. I cannot imagine being so wrapped up in a religion that I would reject my child (or anyone) for being gay. It's like rejecting a child for having blue eyes, or curly hair, or being left-handed. I find it very cruel and it puts the child in an impossibly sad position.

[ktgrok]

18 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

One, your mom has the freedom to do anything she wants and so does her grandson.

Two, because or point one, it is not imposing anything on someone to simply refuse to participate in things I view as sins.  Whether your mom went or not doesn't impose anything on him.  He can still choose to do whatever he wants, whether she likes it or not.  

I think the difference there comes down to if attending a wedding = participating in the sin. Some would say that as long as you yourself are not being married to someone of the same sex that you are not participating in that sin. Others would say that attending is participating. 

[Murphy101]

 

1 minute ago, Selkie said:

I didn't say I'm not aware that it happens, I said I find it mind boggling. I cannot imagine being so wrapped up in a religion that I would reject my child (or anyone) for being gay. It's like rejecting a child for having blue eyes, or curly hair, or being left-handed. I find it very cruel and it puts the child in an impossibly sad position.

 

Point by point here.

If it matters, I had that view before becoming religious.  But if it makes you feel better to blame religion, well nothing new there.

I never said anything about rejecting any of my children.  No matter what, they are my children and I love them, even if I don't accept everything they do in life.  Contrary to some opinions, it is very possible to love deeply without being okay and accepting with everything someone does.  

Sex is an action, not a hair color.  We all have choices wrt to sex.  I freely admit the choices for those with SSA is tremendously more difficult and I agree that it is indeed a sad situations for them. Heartbreaking actually.

[Frances]

On 9/15/2019 at 11:22 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

One, your mom has the freedom to do anything she wants and so does her grandson.

Two, because or point one, it is not imposing anything on someone to simply refuse to participate in things I view as sins.  Whether your mom went or not doesn't impose anything on him.  He can still choose to do whatever he wants, whether she likes it or not.  

Nm

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

I think the difference there comes down to if attending a wedding = participating in the sin. Some would say that as long as you yourself are not being married to someone of the same sex that you are not participating in that sin. Others would say that attending is participating. 

 

Sure.  I was just saying where I land on that question since in came up in the thread.  Which shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. 

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think the difference there comes down to if attending a wedding = participating in the sin. Some would say that as long as you yourself are not being married to someone of the same sex that you are not participating in that sin. Others would say that attending is participating. 

Well then go to confession afterwards if you feel like you have sinned by going to the wedding. Most people have likely done far worse in any given week, completely on their own. But you might also want to consider that you may have sinned if you do not go to the wedding.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I disagree. He would be forced to accept that she is not attending because she considers gay marriage wrong and sinful due her religious beliefs and that she is choosing to apply that standard and belief to others, not just herself, rather than showing her love and support to someone who believes differently. She would be hurting him deeply.

And I’m guessing it would almost absolutely guarantee he would never ever consider becoming a Catholic or even explore the faith.

 

Okay.  We disagree.  No surprise.  I'm sure it would hurt, but why he would be surprised is beyond me.  It's no secret what the Catholic Church teaches.  So feigning being surprised that a devout Catholic doesn't support a gay wedding seems unnecessary and not very believable to me.  I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to convert to Catholicism.  I wouldn't.  The RCC has Encourage groups for those interested in living the Catholic faith and who struggle with SSA. But if he is having a wedding, I suspect that would be rather difficult to discuss with his significant other.

[Murphy101]

14 minutes ago, Frances said:

Well then go to confession afterwards if you feel like you have sinned by going to the wedding. Most people have likely done far worse in any given week, completely on their own. But you might also want to consider that you may have sinned if you do not go to the wedding.

 

Nope.  No brainer there.  It's not a sin to decide to not go to a wedding.  Any wedding.

I suppose if someone were doing it for malicious reasons, they would need to confess that, but then again, if someone is going to be malicious - who'd want them at their wedding anyways?

Presuming loving relationships and general good-will on all parties, a mother is broken hearted her child is living in sin and a grown child is broken hearted their mother sees it that way.  They are both acting accordingly to what they believe to be good and true.  It doesn't mean they don't love each other or that anyone is forcing someone else to do anything.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Murphy101

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Back to the OP...

I am not sure what in the world has gone on. It seems, though, that it may be something like this:

1. Church did (or allowed) something, three years ago, that Son found unconscionable.

2. Mother supported church's handling of the event, whatever it was.

3. Son disagreed with Mother's support of (or loyalty to) church, and actually felt very, very strongly that justice had not been done. Son cannot quite separate the wrongness of the church from Mother's condoning or accepting of that wrongness - at least, that's how he sees it, that she has contributed to the injustice by not condemning it in a public and dramatic way. (Maybe such as leaving the church.) The reason he can't "get over it" or "let it go" is because he thinks that if it were any other setting, more would have been done, by Mother but also possibly by authorities. He may or may not be wrong about that.

4. Then Mother went to someone's wedding when church people disapproved of that wedding, proving that there are times and places when she would go against the church culture (although I don't think that was against a specific command).

5. But then finally, when HE got married in a non-church approved way, Mother would not defy the church and go to his wedding, citing her faith to God.

 

Scarlett, if it went down anything like this, anywhere even close to it, it may be a long time until things are okay. Even then, you might have to apologize or meet him in the middle *somehow* for him to get past all of this. If you could ever decide (not compromise, but decide, after study and self-analysis) that your church may have influenced or expected you to go against your son in some way but your faith (Bible? Jesus?) did not actually specify that, and you took the most harmful option out of religious pride but you regret it...he would probably forgive you. 

I say this because I have forgiven, but not reconciled with, family members of mine who tolerated spiritual abuse of my family (because they agreed with it) and have shunned and failed to support us because we didn't do what their church said. If they would admit for one second that they could have sided against spiritual abuse and kept a relationship with the minor children of our family without going against their religious handbook, I would reconcile. If they would admit that they don't think their fellow church members who did manage to keep relationships with people who had "left the faith"* are in trouble with Jesus for keeping those relationships, but they'd rather be the shunning kind, themselves, then I would at least respect their honesty. 

But I don't have honesty. I have "There are times when I will bend the rules in a "pick corn on the Sabbath" way, to help or support someone when I believe in their cause and see their need. There are times when I will go against church ethos in some way because of "working out my own salvation before God," or a conscience issue. But when it comes to my own flesh and blood they may rot in hell for embarrassing me by leaving my church or addressing its hypocrisies and crimes. Ooops, I meant to say they may rot in hell because I put Jesus first in my life and they don't respect my faith. They have broken my heart." (We are faithful churchgoers, btw, just not in their denomination.)

You do not need to answer this. Just read it. If there's an option to admit to yourself, and confess to your son, that there was a more inclusive, compassionate, and supportive path you could have taken without turning your back on God, then pray (for as many years as it takes) that you'll eventually humble yourself and take that option. If that's not the case, and your son is angry at you because you have been nothing but righteous and pure as the driven snow, and he wrongly has accused innocent men in your church, then I hope your son will also self-reflect until he sees what is right.

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Lang Syne Boardie

[DawnM]

14 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Back to the OP...

I am not sure what in the world has gone on. It seems, though, that it may be something like this:

1. Church did (or allowed) something, three years ago, that Son found unconscionable.

2. Mother supported church's handling of the event, whatever it was.

3. Son disagreed with Mother's support of (or loyalty to) church, and actually felt very, very strongly that justice had not been done. Son cannot quite separate the wrongness of the church from Mother's condoning or accepting of that wrongness - at least, that's how he sees it, that she has contributed to the injustice by not condemning it in a public and dramatic way. (Maybe such as leaving the church.) The reason he can't "get over it" or "let it go" is because he thinks that if it were any other setting, more would have been done, by Mother but also possibly by authorities. He may or may not be wrong about that.

4. Then Mother went to someone's wedding when church people disapproved of that wedding, proving that there are times and places when she would go against the church culture (although I don't think that was against a specific command).

5. But then finally, when HE got married in a non-church approved way, Mother would not defy the church and go to his wedding, citing her faith to God.

 

Scarlett, if it went down anything like this, anywhere even close to it, it may be a long time until things are okay. Even then, you might have to apologize or meet him in the middle *somehow* for him to get past all of this. If you could ever decide (not compromise, but decide, after study and self-analysis) that your church may have influenced or expected you to go against your son in some way but your faith (Bible? Jesus?) did not actually specify that, and you took the most harmful option out of religious pride but you regret it...he would probably forgive you. 

I say this because I have forgiven, but not reconciled with, family members of mine who tolerated spiritual abuse of my family (because they agreed with it) and have shunned and failed to support us because we didn't do what their church said. If they would admit for one second that they could have sided against spiritual abuse and kept a relationship with the minor children of our family without going against their religious handbook, I would reconcile. If they would admit that they don't think their fellow church members who did manage to keep relationships with people who had "left the faith"* are in trouble with Jesus for keeping those relationships, but they'd rather be the shunning kind, themselves, then I would at least respect their honesty. 

But I don't have honesty. I have "There are times when I will bend the rules in a "pick corn on the Sabbath" way, to help or support someone when I believe in their cause and see their need. There are times when I will go against church ethos in some way because of "working out my own salvation before God," or a conscience issue. But when it comes to my own flesh and blood they may rot in hell for embarrassing me by leaving my church or addressing its hypocrisies and crimes. Ooops, I meant to say they may rot in hell because I put Jesus first in my life and they don't respect my faith. They have broken my heart." (We are faithful churchgoers, btw, just not in their denomination.)

You do not need to answer this. Just read it. If there's an option to admit to yourself, and confess to your son, that there was a more inclusive, compassionate, and supportive path you could have taken without turning your back on God, then pray (for as many years as it takes) that you'll eventually humble yourself and take that option. If that's not the case, and your son is angry at you because you have been nothing but righteous and pure as the driven snow, and he wrongly has accused innocent men in your church, then I hope your son will also self-reflect until he sees what is right.

 

 

You said it much better than I could get it together in my mind.  

Agreed.

[ktgrok]

25 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Okay.  We disagree.  No surprise.  I'm sure it would hurt, but why he would be surprised is beyond me.  It's no secret what the Catholic Church teaches.  So feigning being surprised that a devout Catholic doesn't support a gay wedding seems unnecessary and not very believable to me.  

The surprise might be because he doesn’t see you attending the wedding as you going against the church. There are plenty of Catholics including those mentioned in this thread that would not marry a person of the same sex because it would be a sin but would attend the wedding and not feel they had sinned because observing the wedding doesn’t equal approval or participation in the sin. 

[Frances]

On 9/15/2019 at 11:53 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

Okay.  We disagree.  No surprise.  I'm sure it would hurt, but why he would be surprised is beyond me.  It's no secret what the Catholic Church teaches.  So feigning being surprised that a devout Catholic doesn't support a gay wedding seems unnecessary and not very believable to me.  I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to convert to Catholicism.  I wouldn't.  The RCC has Encourage groups for those interested in living the Catholic faith and who struggle with SSA. But if he is having a wedding, I suspect that would be rather difficult to discuss with his significant other.

Nm

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[maize]

2 hours ago, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

This is one of those things where people come at an issue from such very different points of view that it is almost impossible to communicate. 

I would have a very difficult time navigating a same sex wedding for one of my children--not because I wouldn't love a child if they turned out to be gay but because what marriage is to my understanding fundamentally involves a union of male and female and a same sex union is a different thing entirely. 

Supporting same sex marriage to me means supporting something that fundamentally undermines the basic structures of society.

On a personal level, all things weighed in the balance I might decide that the most good I could personally do would be to demonstrate support for my own child by attending such a wedding, but it would be a deeply grey decision. One where I would see both harm and good in any action I could take.

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

He would be very surprised because she would be choosing her own beliefs over supporting a grandchild who believes differently and does not share the Catholic faith. And that is not at all the loving, Catholic grandma he has known his whole life. So I can assure you, it would be a profound and very unexpected and hurtful surprise. Of course he wouldn’t expect her to enter into a gay marriage and neither would I, but that is very different than her not attending his wedding.

 

I'll take your word for that sense you know your people better than I do.

But for me, that makes no sense that people expect others to be "supporting" of them doing something viewed as a sin by those others as a requirement of love.  Does this apply to all possible sins or just this one?  What other sins should people be supporting of as a requirement of love?

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

This is one of those things where people come at an issue from such very different points of view that it is almost impossible to communicate. 

I would have a very difficult time navigating a same sex wedding for one of my children--not because I wouldn't love a child if they turned out to be gay but because what marriage is to my understanding fundamentally involves a union of male and female and a same sex union is a different thing entirely. 

Supporting same sex marriage to me means supporting something that fundamentally undermines the basic structures of society.

On a personal level, all things weighed in the balance I might decide that the most good I could personally do would be to demonstrate support for my own child by attending such a wedding, but it would be a deeply grey decision. One where I would see both harm and good in any action I could take.

For me, getting divorced when you have children (obviously abusive situations accepted) or having (not adopting) children when single and not in a stable relationship do far more to undermine the basic structure of our society than a gay couple committing to love and support each other for the rest of their lives (which I actually view as contributing to the stability and health of our society). That being said, none of these beliefs would cause me to not attend a wedding.

[Frances]

On 9/15/2019 at 12:39 PM, Murphy101 said:

 

I'll take your word for that sense you know your people better than I do.

But for me, that makes no sense that people expect others to be "supporting" of them doing something viewed as a sin by those others as a requirement of love.  Does this apply to all possible sins or just this one?  What other sins should people be supporting of as a requirement of love?

Nm

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[maize]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

For me, getting divorced when you have children (obviously abusive situations accepted) or having (not adopting) children when single and not in a stable relationship do far more to undermine the basic structure of our society than a gay couple committing to love and support each other for the rest of their lives (which I actually view as contributing to the stability and health of our society). That being said, none of these beliefs would cause me to not attend a wedding.

Would you attend a celebration party for a divorce that you considered harmful to society? 

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

Would you attend a celebration party for a divorce that you considered harmful to society? 

Likely not because I find the whole concept bizarre, and I’m not a party person. I can’t actually imagine anyone I’m remotely close to hosting such a party. While I’ve known people who have been relieved to be out of an abusive marriage or one in which the spouse changed majorly during marriage or cheated, the overwhelming feeling has almost always been one of profound sadness. But hey, I’m also open to being convinced otherwise depending on the situation, so I’m not saying I would never do it. I don’t tend to see most things in black and white terms.

[Murphy101]

52 minutes ago, Frances said:

She would not be supporting the “sin” by attending, she would be supporting her grandson. 

 

Again, that makes no sense.  Again, does this apply to all sins, or just this one?  What other sins would anyone say I'm not supporting if I literally take a seat to watch it committed or publicly celebrate that it is going to be committed?

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Murphy101

[maize]

Just now, Frances said:

Likely not because I find the whole concept bizarre, and I’m not a party person. I can’t actually imagine anyone I’m remotely close to hosting such a party. While I’ve known people who have been relieved to be out of an abusive marriage or one in which the spouse changed majorly during marriage or cheated, the overwhelming feeling has almost always been one of profound sadness. But hey, I’m also open to being convinced otherwise depending on the situation, so I’m not saying I would never do it. I don’t tend to see most things in black and white terms.

Me either.

Most of life is about navigating gray areas.

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Again, that makes no sense.  Again, does this apply to all sins, or just this one?  What other sins would anyone say I'm not supporting if I literally take a seat to watch it committed or publicly celebrate that it isn't going to be committed?

 

As just one example, people on this board who oppose sex before marriage often say they attend baby showers for children born out of wedlock to support the parents and celebrate the new life. 

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

Likely not because I find the whole concept bizarre, and I’m not a party person. I can’t actually imagine anyone I’m remotely close to hosting such a party. While I’ve known people who have been relieved to be out of an abusive marriage or one in which the spouse changed majorly during marriage or cheated, the overwhelming feeling has almost always been one of profound sadness. But hey, I’m also open to being convinced otherwise depending on the situation, so I’m not saying I would never do it. I don’t tend to see most things in black and white terms.

 

Oh  I don't know.  You seem pretty black and white about whether relatives should attend a gay wedding against their beliefs.  😊

That aside, I find the concept of a gay wedding equally bizarre and being Catholic, can't imagine anyone close to me inviting me to one and would have profound sadness at the state of their situation if they did have one to invite me to.