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26 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

And I bet many of the same people would go to the wedding of a divorced person, even if they considered divorce to be a sin.

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30 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

 

My cousin's daughter married a woman.  No one in the family went.  Not her parents, grandparents, or aunts or uncles.  I wasn't invited and didn't even know it happened until after the fact.  

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4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

No.  Not at all. He married the girl he has been dating for a year. The  ‘thing’ he is mad at me about is unrelated to them as a couple.  He will have to grow up and come around to seeing I did what I felt was right.  I wish them well but I am a little concerned that his ‘my wayor the highway approach won’t serve him well in a marriage.’

 

Your son got married?! Congrats!! 

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4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

No.  Not at all. He married the girl he has been dating for a year. The  ‘thing’ he is mad at me about is unrelated to them as a couple.  He will have to grow up and come around to seeing I did what I felt was right.  I wish them well but I am a little concerned that his ‘my wayor the highway approach won’t serve him well in a marriage.’

 

 

WHAT?  Did you not go to the wedding?  Did they have a wedding?  

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

While I too am absolutely no fan of the type of wedding you describe in your third paragraph, I can’t imagine not attending if it was my child’s wedding. I too have made the decision not to attending weddings due to cost or location, but for my child, it would be quite different. 

Maybe I have you confused with someone else, but I think I recall you posting awhile back looking for scuba or snorkeling destinations around the world, including Japan, for vacations you were planning. Paying for you and your spouse to attend an expensive destination wedding for a child would seem to be in the same ballpark. But please forgive me if I have you confused with someone else.

 

Sure I travel twice a year for scuba with girlfriends who split the cost and I accrue zero debt for those travels.  And we plan those trips nearly a year in advance.  And we go international not just for the blue waters, but because it’s a fraction of the cost of traveling in the US. You’d possibly be very surprised that it’s more affordable than I for sure ever thought it could be  

Scuba or child wedding, if it required debt to go - I would not be attending bc I can’t accrue debt at this time in my life without significant long term difficulty. Presuming I could even get the debt anyways. Credit isn’t something everyone has. None of which is news to any of my kids and thus why I’d be very upset if they planned a wedding like that - it would feel like they didn’t even want me or several of their siblings to attend. 

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1 hour ago, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

 

Bull.  You know very well there's plenty of people who think same sex marriages are not okay and are a sin.  It's not news to anyone on this forum or elsewhere in the world.

52 minutes ago, Frances said:

My mom is a devout, life long Catholic and you better believe she will be at the wedding of her gay grandson. She would never dream of missing it despite serious health issues that make travel very difficult and painful.

 

So what? There's lots of supposedly "devout" Catholics that do things or accept things that the Catholic Church actually says they shouldn't.  Birth control, sleepinin instead of going to mass,... Nothing new there.

46 minutes ago, Frances said:

And I bet many of the same people would go to the wedding of a divorced person, even if they considered divorce to be a sin.

 

*shrug* Probably. Me? Depends on the situation.  Generally speaking, I don't presume divorce is a sin. 

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On 9/15/2019 at 11:08 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

Bull.  You know very well there's plenty of people who think same sex marriages are not okay and are a sin.  It's not news to anyone on this forum or elsewhere in the world.

 

So what? There's lots of supposedly "devout" Catholics that do things or accept things that the Catholic Church actually says they shouldn't.  Birth control, sleepinin instead of going to mass,... Nothing new there.

 

*shrug* Probably. Me? Depends on the situation.  Generally speaking, I don't presume divorce is a sin. 

Nm

Edited by Frances
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Another interesting thing that came up today in the sermon/.homily was it was explained that Jesus sitting with sinners/tax collectors would be considered to be accepting them, as they were. To eat with someone was to accept them, to make them part of your insider group, not an outsider. I found that interesting to think about, given that we are discussing if attending an event is considered acceptance of them or the event. Not exactly parallel, but interesting that it came up today. 

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7 minutes ago, Frances said:

My mom’s faith is not her grandson’s faith. Her going to his wedding has nothing to do with whether or not she thinks gay marriage is wrong or what the Catholic Church teaches about marriage. She is not imposing her beliefs on her adult grandson because that is not her place or her role.

 

One, your mom has the freedom to do anything she wants and so does her grandson.

Two, because or point one, it is not imposing anything on someone to simply refuse to participate in things I view as sins.  Whether your mom went or not doesn't impose anything on him.  He can still choose to do whatever he wants, whether she likes it or not.  

Edited by Murphy101
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13 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Bull.  You know very well there's plenty of people who think same sex marriages are not okay and are a sin.  It's not news to anyone on this forum or elsewhere in the world.

 

I didn't say I'm not aware that it happens, I said I find it mind boggling. I cannot imagine being so wrapped up in a religion that I would reject my child (or anyone) for being gay. It's like rejecting a child for having blue eyes, or curly hair, or being left-handed. I find it very cruel and it puts the child in an impossibly sad position.

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18 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

One, your mom has the freedom to do anything she wants and so does her grandson.

Two, because or point one, it is not imposing anything on someone to simply refuse to participate in things I view as sins.  Whether your mom went or not doesn't impose anything on him.  He can still choose to do whatever he wants, whether she likes it or not.  

I think the difference there comes down to if attending a wedding = participating in the sin. Some would say that as long as you yourself are not being married to someone of the same sex that you are not participating in that sin. Others would say that attending is participating. 

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1 minute ago, Selkie said:

I didn't say I'm not aware that it happens, I said I find it mind boggling. I cannot imagine being so wrapped up in a religion that I would reject my child (or anyone) for being gay. It's like rejecting a child for having blue eyes, or curly hair, or being left-handed. I find it very cruel and it puts the child in an impossibly sad position.

 

Point by point here.

If it matters, I had that view before becoming religious.  But if it makes you feel better to blame religion, well nothing new there.

I never said anything about rejecting any of my children.  No matter what, they are my children and I love them, even if I don't accept everything they do in life.  Contrary to some opinions, it is very possible to love deeply without being okay and accepting with everything someone does.  

Sex is an action, not a hair color.  We all have choices wrt to sex.  I freely admit the choices for those with SSA is tremendously more difficult and I agree that it is indeed a sad situations for them. Heartbreaking actually.

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On 9/15/2019 at 11:22 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

One, your mom has the freedom to do anything she wants and so does her grandson.

Two, because or point one, it is not imposing anything on someone to simply refuse to participate in things I view as sins.  Whether your mom went or not doesn't impose anything on him.  He can still choose to do whatever he wants, whether she likes it or not.  

Nm

Edited by Frances
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1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

I think the difference there comes down to if attending a wedding = participating in the sin. Some would say that as long as you yourself are not being married to someone of the same sex that you are not participating in that sin. Others would say that attending is participating. 

 

Sure.  I was just saying where I land on that question since in came up in the thread.  Which shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. 

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4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think the difference there comes down to if attending a wedding = participating in the sin. Some would say that as long as you yourself are not being married to someone of the same sex that you are not participating in that sin. Others would say that attending is participating. 

Well then go to confession afterwards if you feel like you have sinned by going to the wedding. Most people have likely done far worse in any given week, completely on their own. But you might also want to consider that you may have sinned if you do not go to the wedding.

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1 minute ago, Frances said:

I disagree. He would be forced to accept that she is not attending because she considers gay marriage wrong and sinful due her religious beliefs and that she is choosing to apply that standard and belief to others, not just herself, rather than showing her love and support to someone who believes differently. She would be hurting him deeply.

And I’m guessing it would almost absolutely guarantee he would never ever consider becoming a Catholic or even explore the faith.

 

Okay.  We disagree.  No surprise.  I'm sure it would hurt, but why he would be surprised is beyond me.  It's no secret what the Catholic Church teaches.  So feigning being surprised that a devout Catholic doesn't support a gay wedding seems unnecessary and not very believable to me.  I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to convert to Catholicism.  I wouldn't.  The RCC has Encourage groups for those interested in living the Catholic faith and who struggle with SSA. But if he is having a wedding, I suspect that would be rather difficult to discuss with his significant other.

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14 minutes ago, Frances said:

Well then go to confession afterwards if you feel like you have sinned by going to the wedding. Most people have likely done far worse in any given week, completely on their own. But you might also want to consider that you may have sinned if you do not go to the wedding.

 

Nope.  No brainer there.  It's not a sin to decide to not go to a wedding.  Any wedding.

I suppose if someone were doing it for malicious reasons, they would need to confess that, but then again, if someone is going to be malicious - who'd want them at their wedding anyways?

Presuming loving relationships and general good-will on all parties, a mother is broken hearted her child is living in sin and a grown child is broken hearted their mother sees it that way.  They are both acting accordingly to what they believe to be good and true.  It doesn't mean they don't love each other or that anyone is forcing someone else to do anything.

Edited by Murphy101
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Back to the OP...

I am not sure what in the world has gone on. It seems, though, that it may be something like this:

1. Church did (or allowed) something, three years ago, that Son found unconscionable.

2. Mother supported church's handling of the event, whatever it was.

3. Son disagreed with Mother's support of (or loyalty to) church, and actually felt very, very strongly that justice had not been done. Son cannot quite separate the wrongness of the church from Mother's condoning or accepting of that wrongness - at least, that's how he sees it, that she has contributed to the injustice by not condemning it in a public and dramatic way. (Maybe such as leaving the church.) The reason he can't "get over it" or "let it go" is because he thinks that if it were any other setting, more would have been done, by Mother but also possibly by authorities. He may or may not be wrong about that.

4. Then Mother went to someone's wedding when church people disapproved of that wedding, proving that there are times and places when she would go against the church culture (although I don't think that was against a specific command).

5. But then finally, when HE got married in a non-church approved way, Mother would not defy the church and go to his wedding, citing her faith to God.

 

Scarlett, if it went down anything like this, anywhere even close to it, it may be a long time until things are okay. Even then, you might have to apologize or meet him in the middle *somehow* for him to get past all of this. If you could ever decide (not compromise, but decide, after study and self-analysis) that your church may have influenced or expected you to go against your son in some way but your faith (Bible? Jesus?) did not actually specify that, and you took the most harmful option out of religious pride but you regret it...he would probably forgive you. 

I say this because I have forgiven, but not reconciled with, family members of mine who tolerated spiritual abuse of my family (because they agreed with it) and have shunned and failed to support us because we didn't do what their church said. If they would admit for one second that they could have sided against spiritual abuse and kept a relationship with the minor children of our family without going against their religious handbook, I would reconcile. If they would admit that they don't think their fellow church members who did manage to keep relationships with people who had "left the faith"* are in trouble with Jesus for keeping those relationships, but they'd rather be the shunning kind, themselves, then I would at least respect their honesty. 

But I don't have honesty. I have "There are times when I will bend the rules in a "pick corn on the Sabbath" way, to help or support someone when I believe in their cause and see their need. There are times when I will go against church ethos in some way because of "working out my own salvation before God," or a conscience issue. But when it comes to my own flesh and blood they may rot in hell for embarrassing me by leaving my church or addressing its hypocrisies and crimes. Ooops, I meant to say they may rot in hell because I put Jesus first in my life and they don't respect my faith. They have broken my heart." (We are faithful churchgoers, btw, just not in their denomination.)

You do not need to answer this. Just read it. If there's an option to admit to yourself, and confess to your son, that there was a more inclusive, compassionate, and supportive path you could have taken without turning your back on God, then pray (for as many years as it takes) that you'll eventually humble yourself and take that option. If that's not the case, and your son is angry at you because you have been nothing but righteous and pure as the driven snow, and he wrongly has accused innocent men in your church, then I hope your son will also self-reflect until he sees what is right.

 

Edited by Lang Syne Boardie
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14 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Back to the OP...

I am not sure what in the world has gone on. It seems, though, that it may be something like this:

1. Church did (or allowed) something, three years ago, that Son found unconscionable.

2. Mother supported church's handling of the event, whatever it was.

3. Son disagreed with Mother's support of (or loyalty to) church, and actually felt very, very strongly that justice had not been done. Son cannot quite separate the wrongness of the church from Mother's condoning or accepting of that wrongness - at least, that's how he sees it, that she has contributed to the injustice by not condemning it in a public and dramatic way. (Maybe such as leaving the church.) The reason he can't "get over it" or "let it go" is because he thinks that if it were any other setting, more would have been done, by Mother but also possibly by authorities. He may or may not be wrong about that.

4. Then Mother went to someone's wedding when church people disapproved of that wedding, proving that there are times and places when she would go against the church culture (although I don't think that was against a specific command).

5. But then finally, when HE got married in a non-church approved way, Mother would not defy the church and go to his wedding, citing her faith to God.

 

Scarlett, if it went down anything like this, anywhere even close to it, it may be a long time until things are okay. Even then, you might have to apologize or meet him in the middle *somehow* for him to get past all of this. If you could ever decide (not compromise, but decide, after study and self-analysis) that your church may have influenced or expected you to go against your son in some way but your faith (Bible? Jesus?) did not actually specify that, and you took the most harmful option out of religious pride but you regret it...he would probably forgive you. 

I say this because I have forgiven, but not reconciled with, family members of mine who tolerated spiritual abuse of my family (because they agreed with it) and have shunned and failed to support us because we didn't do what their church said. If they would admit for one second that they could have sided against spiritual abuse and kept a relationship with the minor children of our family without going against their religious handbook, I would reconcile. If they would admit that they don't think their fellow church members who did manage to keep relationships with people who had "left the faith"* are in trouble with Jesus for keeping those relationships, but they'd rather be the shunning kind, themselves, then I would at least respect their honesty. 

But I don't have honesty. I have "There are times when I will bend the rules in a "pick corn on the Sabbath" way, to help or support someone when I believe in their cause and see their need. There are times when I will go against church ethos in some way because of "working out my own salvation before God," or a conscience issue. But when it comes to my own flesh and blood they may rot in hell for embarrassing me by leaving my church or addressing its hypocrisies and crimes. Ooops, I meant to say they may rot in hell because I put Jesus first in my life and they don't respect my faith. They have broken my heart." (We are faithful churchgoers, btw, just not in their denomination.)

You do not need to answer this. Just read it. If there's an option to admit to yourself, and confess to your son, that there was a more inclusive, compassionate, and supportive path you could have taken without turning your back on God, then pray (for as many years as it takes) that you'll eventually humble yourself and take that option. If that's not the case, and your son is angry at you because you have been nothing but righteous and pure as the driven snow, and he wrongly has accused innocent men in your church, then I hope your son will also self-reflect until he sees what is right.

 

 

You said it much better than I could get it together in my mind.  

Agreed.

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25 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Okay.  We disagree.  No surprise.  I'm sure it would hurt, but why he would be surprised is beyond me.  It's no secret what the Catholic Church teaches.  So feigning being surprised that a devout Catholic doesn't support a gay wedding seems unnecessary and not very believable to me.  

The surprise might be because he doesn’t see you attending the wedding as you going against the church. There are plenty of Catholics including those mentioned in this thread that would not marry a person of the same sex because it would be a sin but would attend the wedding and not feel they had sinned because observing the wedding doesn’t equal approval or participation in the sin. 

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On 9/15/2019 at 11:53 AM, Murphy101 said:

 

Okay.  We disagree.  No surprise.  I'm sure it would hurt, but why he would be surprised is beyond me.  It's no secret what the Catholic Church teaches.  So feigning being surprised that a devout Catholic doesn't support a gay wedding seems unnecessary and not very believable to me.  I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to convert to Catholicism.  I wouldn't.  The RCC has Encourage groups for those interested in living the Catholic faith and who struggle with SSA. But if he is having a wedding, I suspect that would be rather difficult to discuss with his significant other.

Nm

Edited by Frances

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2 hours ago, Selkie said:

I find it pretty mind boggling that someone wouldn't go to a same sex wedding, and especially for their own child!

This is one of those things where people come at an issue from such very different points of view that it is almost impossible to communicate. 

I would have a very difficult time navigating a same sex wedding for one of my children--not because I wouldn't love a child if they turned out to be gay but because what marriage is to my understanding fundamentally involves a union of male and female and a same sex union is a different thing entirely. 

Supporting same sex marriage to me means supporting something that fundamentally undermines the basic structures of society.

On a personal level, all things weighed in the balance I might decide that the most good I could personally do would be to demonstrate support for my own child by attending such a wedding, but it would be a deeply grey decision. One where I would see both harm and good in any action I could take.

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2 minutes ago, Frances said:

He would be very surprised because she would be choosing her own beliefs over supporting a grandchild who believes differently and does not share the Catholic faith. And that is not at all the loving, Catholic grandma he has known his whole life. So I can assure you, it would be a profound and very unexpected and hurtful surprise. Of course he wouldn’t expect her to enter into a gay marriage and neither would I, but that is very different than her not attending his wedding.

 

I'll take your word for that sense you know your people better than I do.

But for me, that makes no sense that people expect others to be "supporting" of them doing something viewed as a sin by those others as a requirement of love.  Does this apply to all possible sins or just this one?  What other sins should people be supporting of as a requirement of love?

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2 minutes ago, maize said:

This is one of those things where people come at an issue from such very different points of view that it is almost impossible to communicate. 

I would have a very difficult time navigating a same sex wedding for one of my children--not because I wouldn't love a child if they turned out to be gay but because what marriage is to my understanding fundamentally involves a union of male and female and a same sex union is a different thing entirely. 

Supporting same sex marriage to me means supporting something that fundamentally undermines the basic structures of society.

On a personal level, all things weighed in the balance I might decide that the most good I could personally do would be to demonstrate support for my own child by attending such a wedding, but it would be a deeply grey decision. One where I would see both harm and good in any action I could take.

For me, getting divorced when you have children (obviously abusive situations accepted) or having (not adopting) children when single and not in a stable relationship do far more to undermine the basic structure of our society than a gay couple committing to love and support each other for the rest of their lives (which I actually view as contributing to the stability and health of our society). That being said, none of these beliefs would cause me to not attend a wedding.

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On 9/15/2019 at 12:39 PM, Murphy101 said:

 

I'll take your word for that sense you know your people better than I do.

But for me, that makes no sense that people expect others to be "supporting" of them doing something viewed as a sin by those others as a requirement of love.  Does this apply to all possible sins or just this one?  What other sins should people be supporting of as a requirement of love?

Nm

Edited by Frances

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5 minutes ago, Frances said:

For me, getting divorced when you have children (obviously abusive situations accepted) or having (not adopting) children when single and not in a stable relationship do far more to undermine the basic structure of our society than a gay couple committing to love and support each other for the rest of their lives (which I actually view as contributing to the stability and health of our society). That being said, none of these beliefs would cause me to not attend a wedding.

Would you attend a celebration party for a divorce that you considered harmful to society? 

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2 minutes ago, maize said:

Would you attend a celebration party for a divorce that you considered harmful to society? 

Likely not because I find the whole concept bizarre, and I’m not a party person. I can’t actually imagine anyone I’m remotely close to hosting such a party. While I’ve known people who have been relieved to be out of an abusive marriage or one in which the spouse changed majorly during marriage or cheated, the overwhelming feeling has almost always been one of profound sadness. But hey, I’m also open to being convinced otherwise depending on the situation, so I’m not saying I would never do it. I don’t tend to see most things in black and white terms.

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52 minutes ago, Frances said:

She would not be supporting the “sin” by attending, she would be supporting her grandson. 

 

Again, that makes no sense.  Again, does this apply to all sins, or just this one?  What other sins would anyone say I'm not supporting if I literally take a seat to watch it committed or publicly celebrate that it is going to be committed?

 

Edited by Murphy101
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Just now, Frances said:

Likely not because I find the whole concept bizarre, and I’m not a party person. I can’t actually imagine anyone I’m remotely close to hosting such a party. While I’ve known people who have been relieved to be out of an abusive marriage or one in which the spouse changed majorly during marriage or cheated, the overwhelming feeling has almost always been one of profound sadness. But hey, I’m also open to being convinced otherwise depending on the situation, so I’m not saying I would never do it. I don’t tend to see most things in black and white terms.

Me either.

Most of life is about navigating gray areas.

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2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Again, that makes no sense.  Again, does this apply to all sins, or just this one?  What other sins would anyone say I'm not supporting if I literally take a seat to watch it committed or publicly celebrate that it isn't going to be committed?

 

As just one example, people on this board who oppose sex before marriage often say they attend baby showers for children born out of wedlock to support the parents and celebrate the new life. 

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3 minutes ago, Frances said:

Likely not because I find the whole concept bizarre, and I’m not a party person. I can’t actually imagine anyone I’m remotely close to hosting such a party. While I’ve known people who have been relieved to be out of an abusive marriage or one in which the spouse changed majorly during marriage or cheated, the overwhelming feeling has almost always been one of profound sadness. But hey, I’m also open to being convinced otherwise depending on the situation, so I’m not saying I would never do it. I don’t tend to see most things in black and white terms.

 

Oh  I don't know.  You seem pretty black and white about whether relatives should attend a gay wedding against their beliefs.  😊

That aside, I find the concept of a gay wedding equally bizarre and being Catholic, can't imagine anyone close to me inviting me to one and would have profound sadness at the state of their situation if they did have one to invite me to.

 

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On 9/15/2019 at 1:08 PM, Murphy101 said:

 

Oh  I don't know.  You seem pretty black and white about whether relatives should attend a gay wedding against their beliefs.  😊

That aside, I find the concept of a gay wedding equally bizarre and being Catholic, can't imagine anyone close to me inviting me to one and would have profound sadness at the state of their situation if they did have one to invite me to.

 

Nm

Edited by Frances

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Just throwing this out there-In our Episcopal marriage service, the congregation does vow to support the couple in their marriage. 

 

"Will all of you witnessing these promises do all in your
power to uphold these two persons in their marriage?"

I suppose you could just not say the above, if you didn't want to support the marriage. It is kinda assumed that you want to, if you are there. 

I'll bow out now. 

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4 minutes ago, Frances said:

As just one example, people on this board who oppose sex before marriage often say they attend baby showers for children born out of wedlock to support the parents and celebrate the new life. 

 

Um.  Having a baby is not a sin?  All for supporting babies.  Big fan of that. 🎉

However, I wouldn't go to a house warming party for a couple moving in together without marriage.  Does it help to know I'm usually consistent?  I also wouldn't support them having sex outside marriage via any other means such as supplying birth control, looking the other way for sleep overs, or what all else.  

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36 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I'll take your word for that sense you know your people better than I do.

But for me, that makes no sense that people expect others to be "supporting" of them doing something viewed as a sin by those others as a requirement of love.  Does this apply to all possible sins or just this one?  What other sins should people be supporting of as a requirement of love?

But if the person knows your view of same sex marriage, and God knows your view of same sex marriage, and they know that you attending doesn't mean you support same sex marriage, then attending the marriage would not be seen by God or the grandson as supporting the sin. There are ways to communicate your beliefs on the matter and still attend. Similar to how a person can attend a pig roast on a Friday and lent and as long as they themselves don't eat the meat, they are not participating in the sin of violating the fast. 

(and I do get that others see that differently, but there is a logical argument to be made that going doesn't mean participating or even supporting. 

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16 minutes ago, Frances said:

As just one example, people on this board who oppose sex before marriage often say they attend baby showers for children born out of wedlock to support the parents and celebrate the new life. 

Sex outside of marriage and the birth of a baby, while certainly related, are entirely different things.

I would attend a baby shower. I would not attend a "we're moving in together without getting married" celebration.

(Cross posted with Murphy 😄 )

Edited by maize
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3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Um.  Having a baby is not a sin?  All for supporting babies.  Big fan of that. 🎉

However, I wouldn't go to a house warming party for a couple moving in together without marriage.  Does it help to know I'm usually consistent?  I also wouldn't support them having sex outside marriage via any other means such as supplying birth control, looking the other way for sleep overs, or what all else.  

The baby is a result of having sex outside of marriage and the party is celebrate the result of parents doing that and to support the parents who did it and are likely continuing to do it. I’ve certainly heard of people refusing to attend or refusing to host a shower for such a situation, just as some will not attend a gay marriage. I’m not just making up a random example.

Edited by Frances

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Another example would be people attending a second marriage when in their faith that would constitute committing adultery on the part of those getting married. Some might apply their beliefs and standards to any couple, some only to couples who share their faith, and some only to themselves.

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21 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

But if the person knows your view of same sex marriage, and God knows your view of same sex marriage, and they know that you attending doesn't mean you support same sex marriage, then attending the marriage would not be seen by God or the grandson as supporting the sin. There are ways to communicate your beliefs on the matter and still attend. Similar to how a person can attend a pig roast on a Friday and lent and as long as they themselves don't eat the meat, they are not participating in the sin of violating the fast. 

(and I do get that others see that differently, but there is a logical argument to be made that going doesn't mean participating or even supporting. 

 

I'm interested in reading that argument.

Let's apply that logic to other sins.

I go into store with a person knowing they are going to steal because that's what they told me they were inviting me to see -  but if I tell them how much I don't think it's right, wellll I'm not really supporting them by going there knowing that's the point of the trip, watching them do it, and hugging later saying how much I love them.  I hate shoplifting but it's more important I support the person or I must not really love them.  I mean, they obviously don't agree with me and think what they are doing should be okay, who am I to hold them to my beliefs by deciding I can't go to this event? Would anyone legit buy that argument?

 

 

Edited by Murphy101
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7 minutes ago, Frances said:

The baby is a result of having sex outside of marriage and the party is celebrate the result of parents doing that and to support the parents who did it and are likely continuing to do it. I’ve certainly heard of people refusing to attend or refusing to host a shower for such a situation, just as some will not attend a gay marriage. I’m not just making up a random example.

 

The party is to provide care for the new life.  I have not celebrated any except for those where the couple is planning marriage shortly or they have broken up.  To be honest, those are the only outcomes I've seen of these situations.  

1 minute ago, Frances said:

Another example would be people attending a second marriage when in their faith that would constitute committing adultery on the part of those getting married. Some might apply their beliefs and standards to any couple, some only to couples who share their faith, and some only to themselves.

 

I would not and have not attended such weddings.  *shrug* Can't explain other people.

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5 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

He is that upset about something that isn't even sinful?  That's.... rather drastic a reaction isn't it?  I'm trying to fathom something that difficult that isn't also a sin and honestly coming up blank.

yes it is drastic.  And he is wrong.  I will elaborate in a bit.  

Does his new wife feel the same way about this issue? Were you able to attend the wedding?

His new wife does not feel the same way about the original issue. 

 

How, exactly, is he demanding you turn from your faith? I honestly don't think you will get much help here without that information.

He isn’t asking me to completely...he just anted his way on one specific issue. 

 

5 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I'm Roman Catholic.  There's plenty of folks who think no one should be Catholic these days thanks to evil doers in our apple barrels.  Thankfully, none of my kids think that.  However, if they had qualms about our parish that were legit I would and have had to seriously consider that.  

 

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11 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

The party is to provide care for the new life.  I have not celebrated any except for those where the couple is planning marriage shortly or they have broken up.  To be honest, those are the only outcomes I've seen of these situations.  

 

I would not and have not attended such weddings.  *shrug* Can't explain other people.

As to your comment about not attending a wedding of a divorced person.....I was divorced and remarried.  I don't believe that was a sin because I believe my xh’s adultery released me from my vow to him.   However, I FULLY comprehend that some people DO believe it to be a sin, so if I invited you and you did not attend, I would not be mad at you.  That is the point here.  Not whether details involved were right or wrong, but that I felt them to be so and so why is he angry.  And as to the argument that I should have compromised for my child....no.  I don't compromise on religious issues for anyone.  Not even my beloved only child.  

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I can't get worked up about weddings. They've always been weird to me, straight or gay. 

I personally can't think of a wedding I'd out and out refuse to attend, other than that of a man marrying an underage girl, but that's because weddings are just a cultural thing to me - and a thing that's not even really part of my personal bubble culture.

I can imagine feeling differently if I had strong and consistent feelings that marriage is a particular sacramental behaviour.

Imagining other people feeling differently is probably something we're all supposed to do; accepting that other people are also complex, moral creatures, and that most of the time our struggles with them fall into the grey area Maize mentioned and not into the black and white zone of right/wrong.

I don't know if this thing with Scarlett's son has anything to do with a wedding or not. And I personally can't imagine not attending the wedding of one of my children, whether I take wedddings seriously or not. 

All I know is that young adults take a while to develop the above perspective - some of us take a lifetime to do it! And the relationship will change and develop, so long as no-one gets 'stuck' in their adolescent anger or their adult righteousness.

Edited, because actually I can imagine - if one of my kids got sucked into a Duggar style belief system - or any incredibly patriarchal, sexist community, and the wedding was designed to cement that membership - I would sorrowfully decline. Maybe. Definitely grey. So yes, imaginable.

Edited by StellaM
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6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

As to your comment about not attending a wedding of a divorced person.....I was divorced and remarried.  I don't believe that was a sin because I believe my xh’s adultery released me from my vow to him.   However, I FULLY comprehend that some people DO believe it to be a sin, so if I invited you and you did not attend, I would not be mad at you.  That is the point here.  Not whether details involved were right or wrong, but that I felt them to be so and so why is he angry.  And as to the argument that I should have compromised for my child....no.  I don't compromise on religious issues for anyone.  Not even my beloved only child.  

 

You're allowed to do that.

Your son is allowed to get mad about it, even for a long time.

What he isn't allowed to do is to manage that anger in an irresponsible way. 

I hope he develops the maturity and skills to manage his anger appropriately, if in fact he does not let it go.

 

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I’m so completely confused about this entire thing I can’t tell even the basic stuff of what might be going on.

 

Your son is married?!  Congratulations!  I’m sorry you two aren’t speaking right now, I did get that part and it breaks my heart for you.  I hope healing and reconciliation can happen 😞

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43 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I'm interested in reading that argument.

Let's apply that logic to other sins.

I go into store with a person knowing they are going to steal because that's what they told me they were inviting me to see -  but if I tell them how much I don't think it's right, wellll I'm not really supporting them by going there knowing that's the point of the trip, watching them do it, and hugging later saying how much I love them.  I hate shoplifting but it's more important I support the person or I must not really love them.  I mean, they obviously don't agree with me and think what they are doing should be okay, who am I to hold them to my beliefs by deciding I can't go to this event? Would anyone legit buy that argument?

 

 

Would you ever support or at least not condemn or report someone for stealing to provide food for their starving child if neither you nor they could provide food in any other way? People have certainly found themselves in that situation before throughout time and place and likely still do today. Otherwise, I think your example is so contrived as to be meaningless.

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24 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

As to your comment about not attending a wedding of a divorced person.....I was divorced and remarried.  I don't believe that was a sin because I believe my xh’s adultery released me from my vow to him.   However, I FULLY comprehend that some people DO believe it to be a sin, so if I invited you and you did not attend, I would not be mad at you.  That is the point here.  Not whether details involved were right or wrong, but that I felt them to be so and so why is he angry.  And as to the argument that I should have compromised for my child....no.  I don't compromise on religious issues for anyone.  Not even my beloved only child.  

 

I guess I’m having trouble understanding what kind of “religious issue” would be so important to you that you wouldn’t compromise on it for your son. People have brought up the topic of gay marriage, but that certainly wouldn’t apply to your son, nor would living together outside of marriage (because they are married,) and they didn't have a baby together before they got married, either... so I am even more confused now than I was when I first started reading this thread. 

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8 minutes ago, Frances said:

Would you ever support or at least not condemn or report someone for stealing to provide food for their starving child if neither you nor they could provide food in any other way? People have certainly found themselves in that situation before throughout time and place and likely still do today. Otherwise, I think your example is so contrived as to be meaningless.

The Bible doesn't really provide "unless, of course" clauses to get out of sins that I've come across. It's actually pretty straightforward that we are to trust in the Lord to provide for all of our needs. It doesn't give an "unless you're really hungry, then stealing is okay," clause. Proverbs 6:30 talks about how it is understandable if someone steals out of hunger, however they are still required to repay what was stolen 7-fold. Of course, if you aren't a Christian then there is a different moralistic compass there that may vary. 

Maybe another example would be attending a KKK rally with a child, even though you aren't a racist, and find the whole concept of the KKK morally reprehensible. But they asked you to as a show of support for their belief system. Is that okay then to attend? 

Edited by Æthelthryth the Texan
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1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

 

I guess I’m having trouble understanding what kind of “religious issue” would be so important to you that you wouldn’t compromise on it for your son. People have brought up the topic of gay marriage, but that certainly wouldn’t apply to your son, nor would living together outside of marriage (because they are married,) and they didn't have a baby together before they got married, either... so I am even more confused now than I was when I first started reading this thread. 

With JW?  It could be transfusions or vaccines, though the latter seems to have been allowed in recent decades.  There’s any number of smaller church polity things too.  And, uh, the whole cult-y thing. I mean, potentially if her son converted to a mainline or evangelical Christianity there is much concern then for some of the doctrinal positions and eschatology of his Mom’s church.

Without knowing more specifically what the concern is this is all just speculation of course.

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