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Love the sinner. Hate the sin.

I would not want to draw a line in the sand with my child that put us on divided sides, over a single event in time. Humans grow and explore all aspect of humanity in thier own time and pace.  I do not expect my children to follow my same path or even end up at the same destination. I may offer my opinion and reasons why I believe certain things, but I also know that my beliefs were formed because of my experiences not just because someone told me to believe a certain way. My children will also have thier own lifetime of experiences that will guide thier beliefs.  I hope that if my kids fall away from what they were taught to believe, that they find solice that they will still be loved and cherrished in my home. I may not want that proverbial sin thrust in my face, but I can see past it and focus on all that is good in them instead. 

Edited by Tap
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42 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

I think it veered into weddings because Scarlett did post about a wedding among some young people she knew that she didn't feel she could attend but her son wanted to.  Or something like that.

Exactly the opposite.  I attended a wedding he thought I should not have.  And he was very angry about it.  He was also angry at his girlfriend for going even  though the groom was her cousin.  She told me they almost broke up over it.  

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3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Exactly the opposite.  I attended a wedding he thought I should not have.  And he was very angry about it.  He was also angry at his girlfriend for going even  though the groom was her cousin.  She told me they almost broke up over it.  

I thought I remembered it that way.

If that is the case, this isn't a matter of participating or not in an even in the child/relatives life, but of the child sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong. He is a third party, and it is not his place to judge. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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33 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Well and I think maybe she said it was about attending something. And you generally don't ask someone to attend you watching porn, or getting someone pregnant, lol. Attendance implies birthday parties (which I believe would be against her beliefs), weddings, funerals, graduation, recital, award ceremony, etc. Out of those weddings often cause controversy so easy target. 

Yes, when people were trying to come up with possible equivalent scenarios in the beginning, she did suggest one where the focus was on someone attending something they morally objected to and seeing that as participating. It’s just difficult because we don’t really know if this is the case. We also don’t know if it’s something he wants to do in her home or outside the home. Or if he expects her to change her moral stance and agree with him or even allow it or agree to disagree, but still be present because he doesn’t view that as participating or condoning. There are just too many unknowns.

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24 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I thought I remembered it that way.

If that is the case, this isn't a matter of participating or not in an even in the child/relatives life, but of the child sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong. He is a third party, and it is not his place to judge. 

Well to be clear that is not the situation he is currently angry at me about.  

He has been angry for almost 3 years.  

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Moms totally get the worst of it.  I think part of that is that it's usually your mom who has indulged you for years on end, since childhood - even if Scarlett is strict about some things it's pretty clear she's always doted on her son, and I think that's the case with a lot of moms. So then when your kid starts to grow up and have opinions or desires completely separate of you, I think it can be a shock to them when even MOM doesn't approve or bend or give in.  Like, who is this lady with a will and ideas separate of mine?  So then there's a lot more blowback on Mom than everyone else.

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52 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well to be clear that is not the situation he is currently angry at me about.  

He has been angry for almost 3 years.  

I remember the wedding thing, he was completely out of line passing judgment on you over your decision to attend.

It sounds like he is not understanding appropriate interpersonal boundaries and appropriate ways to disagree. Anger is easy and feels so justified when you're the one embracing it.

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4 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I think kids in general also talk to their Moms more than their Dads and can tend to run off at the mouth a bit more with Mom under the guise of expressing themselves, which sometimes turns into honestly a diarrhea of the thought chain, when they should have maybe shut up 10 thoughts ago, and then pointless emotion builds...... A generalization of course. But I know when I made my post last weekend, my dd was spouting off to me about things that she would never in a million years say to her Dad. Not that she was being disrespectful with words or tone...... but she is simply not going to say the thoughts to him aloud. She kept going on and on, and one thing built to another and suddenly what had been a nice chat turned into "100 ways you have ruined my life and I take no responsibility for." 

I haven't had a ds Scarlett's son's age yet. I just know from being that age myself and seeing guys that age in general, testosterone can make for some really stupid decisions and comments. Coupled with a teenage brain. It's just bad sometimes. And sometimes they need another male to stand up and take them down a peg, because that is almost impossible for a Mother to do with a guy in that all knowing mindset. I know some will view that statement of being taken down a peg, as violent, or OMG sexist, but I think it's a lot better for them to run into that with a responsible adult male who is going to tell them to knock that crap off than it is to just let them get away with it and continue to have that ego escalation. Guys that age without strong male role models willing to step in when necessary tend not to have the greatest outcome for society.  So if that's the case he's taking this out chiefly on Scarlett, it was at least good to hear the ex-h is stepping up and not giving him an easy out and making excuses for the ds to view his Mom as wrong. 

I'm really sorry, again, Scarlett, that you are picking up the brunt of his anger. But I am at least glad you have your dh there and even your x-h backing you up. It would be so much harder to go through just you and ds. 

 

The bolded!  So true!  DD was making a fuss to me about something in the car the other day (while I was driving her to school so she could get an extra hour of sleep and so I could stop at the gas station and buy pretzels, cookies, and chocolate milk for her lunch -oooh I am a terrible mother) and I turned to her at one point and said, can you imagine saying any of this to Dad?  Ever?  Like, ever?  It's good that she feels free to express herself with me but it does often morph into unthoughtful, accusatory unkindness (from my POV) and she would never dare to talk to her father that way.  It's hard to walk that line between wanting your teenager to talk to you and wanting them not to guilt trip you every day, though.

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29 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Moms totally get the worst of it.  I think part of that is that it's usually your mom who has indulged you for years on end, since childhood - even if Scarlett is strict about some things it's pretty clear she's always doted on her son, and I think that's the case with a lot of moms. So then when your kid starts to grow up and have opinions or desires completely separate of you, I think it can be a shock to them when even MOM doesn't approve or bend or give in.  Like, who is this lady with a will and ideas separate of mine?  So then there's a lot more blowback on Mom than everyone else.

Aha! You just nailed exactly what I've been dealing with for the last year. 

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3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Exactly the opposite.  I attended a wedding he thought I should not have.  And he was very angry about it.  He was also angry at his girlfriend for going even  though the groom was her cousin.  She told me they almost broke up over it.  

I have a very justice oriented kid who sometimes takes really hard lines over things he feels strongly about. What I've learned is that sometimes he needs me to acknowledge the underlying goodness in his POV before he will give an inch and let something go. For example, we disagreed about what an appropriate punishment would be for someone who harms another person (in a specific way, but I'm not going to get that specific). He was taking a VERY hard line and would not give an inch. But then I realized that what he needed was for me to acknowledge that there was an underlying goodness and rightness in how he felt. That at its core, I appreciated his moral standards and loved that about him. The minute I said that, he completely relaxed and we were able to end the conversation on more common ground.

Maybe your son is looking for validation? IDK, this may not be helpful, but it's just a thought.

 

ETA: This thread reminded me- Julie Bogart, of Bravewriter, did a series of videos a few years ago and they were so perfectly timed for me. Her kids all ranged from early to late 20's at the time and she talked a bit about this stage of parenting a young adult. The shock when something that they are deeply convicted about doesn't result in the same action they choose- even with the same information! I think her example was of her daughter becoming a vegan and how she kind of threw a fit that everyone else wasn't joining her. Those videos were a real comfort.

Edited by sassenach
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4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

This is so clear!

QFT.

~

It is OK for moms to have personal ethical boundaries, and to disallow even a beloved child to trample over them.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say that negotiating this kind of difference with a parent as a young adult is developmentally appropriate. Young adults need to understand that mom is also a person, with values and ethics, deeply considered. As another adult, they need to reach a perspective that sees mom as a person, and not just as a function of approval and facilitation. 

It's not that the young adult needs to agree, neccessarily, or respond to that ethical boundary in any prescribed way. Although certainly, responding with prolonged anger and name-calling at the very existence of an ethical boundary in one's parent, is not a particular signifier of maturity. 

 

 

 

Yes, that makes sense, it's a natural developmental process.  Just a painful one!

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20 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I have a very justice oriented kid who sometimes takes really hard lines over things he feels strongly about. What I've learned is that sometimes he needs me to acknowledge the underlying goodness in his POV before he will give an inch and let something go. For example, we disagreed about what an appropriate punishment would be for someone who harms another person (in a specific way, but I'm not going to get that specific). He was taking a VERY hard line and would not give an inch. But then I realized that what he needed was for me to acknowledge that there was an underlying goodness and rightness in how he felt. That at it's core, I appreciated his moral standards and loved that about him. The minute I said that, he completely relaxed and we were able to end the conversation on more common ground.

Maybe your son is looking for validation? IDK, this may not be helpful, but it's just a thought.

 

ETA: This thread reminded me- Julie Bogart of Bravewriter, did a series of videos a few years ago and they were so perfectly timed for me. Her kids all ranged from early to late 20's at the time and she talked a bit about this stage of parenting a young adult. The shock when something that they are deeply convicted about doesn't result in the same action they choose- even with the same information! I think her example was of her daughter becoming a vegan and how she kind of threw a fit that everyone else wasn't joining her. Those videos were a real comfort.

He is extremely justice conscious,  He has been shaken to the core over some things that have transpired in our congregation. Me acknowledging there are some serious issues isn’t enough for him.  He wants heads to roll.  So I see it as a good quality that can turn toxic if one can’t exercise some measure of grace and maturity.  

It has really changed who has is.  I really don’t even recognize him right now.  

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14 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I have a very justice oriented kid who sometimes takes really hard lines over things he feels strongly about. What I've learned is that sometimes he needs me to acknowledge the underlying goodness in his POV before he will give an inch and let something go. For example, we disagreed about what an appropriate punishment would be for someone who harms another person (in a specific way, but I'm not going to get that specific). He was taking a VERY hard line and would not give an inch. But then I realized that what he needed was for me to acknowledge that there was an underlying goodness and rightness in how he felt. That at it's core, I appreciated his moral standards and loved that about him. The minute I said that, he completely relaxed and we were able to end the conversation on more common ground.

Maybe your son is looking for validation? IDK, this may not be helpful, but it's just a thought.

 

ETA: This thread reminded me- Julie Bogart of Bravewriter, did a series of videos a few years ago and they were so perfectly timed for me. Her kids all ranged from early to late 20's at the time and she talked a bit about this stage of parenting a young adult. The shock when something that they are deeply convicted about doesn't result in the same action they choose- even with the same information! I think her example was of her daughter becoming a vegan and how she kind of threw a fit that everyone else wasn't joining her. Those videos were a real comfort.

I suppose many young people feel that they have thought their positions through thoroughly. And their solution/behavior is SOOO obvious in their own heads. Shouldn't everyone arrive at the same conclusion that they have? Because they. Are. Right. (they believe so anyhow) And they take it very personally that even people who they are very close to do not agree. And they can often behave as spoiled toddlers when parents are unafraid to speak a truth that they so desperately need to hear. In my observation, the young people assume that others who have listened politely without saying anything, actually agree.  Often the parents are the ones who will tell them the truth that they need to hear over the things that they WANT to hear. And they just can't fathom that their position is not something that parents agree with. 

I've struggled with this stage. I don't remember going through this. I was married and had a baby by 18 though, so I was more consumed with paying bills and doing real grownup things than being ugly to my parents for being who they are. I had many people tell me that I was an "old soul" so maybe it really wasn't something that I dealt with. But it has been very shocking and I want to smack some people.  (not really, but I despise it when young people treat those who love them and have helped them achieve their dreams badly.)

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2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Well to be clear that is not the situation he is currently angry at me about.  

He has been angry for almost 3 years.  

It's the age. 

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

It has been stressful on him too.  Btw, I am not the only loved one who has made this decision,.,,but I get the full force if his anger. 

 

Because he knows deep down you won't turn your back on him..you are safe to be angry with. Which is a good thing. 

1 hour ago, maize said:

I remember the wedding thing, he was completely out of line passing judgment on you over your decision to attend.

It sounds like he is not understanding appropriate interpersonal boundaries and appropriate ways to disagree. Anger is easy and feels so justified when you're the one embracing it.

Especially at that age. And yes, anger is easier than being open minded. But kids that are are NOT open minded, although they all think they are, lol. 

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

He is extremely justice conscious,  He has been shaken to the core over some things that have transpired in our congregation. Me acknowledging there are some serious issues isn’t enough for him.  He wants heads to roll.  So I see it as a good quality that can turn toxic if one can’t exercise some measure of grace and maturity.  

It has really changed who has is.  I really don’t even recognize him right now.  

Saying it again, it is the age. EVERYTHING is black and white at that age. WE all know everything at that age. We know best, and things are very clear, and there is no room for reality or practical matters or seeing the other side. Most grow out of it. I did. I was TERRIBLE and yet, as you grow, you realize how many mistakes you made yourself, and become a lot more cognizant that just as you are basically good, with good intentions, but mess up, and do the wrong thing, so do other people. And maybe people doing the wrong thing are good at heart, and mistaken. 

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19 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

He is extremely justice conscious,  He has been shaken to the core over some things that have transpired in our congregation. Me acknowledging there are some serious issues isn’t enough for him.  He wants heads to roll.  So I see it as a good quality that can turn toxic if one can’t exercise some measure of grace and maturity.  

It has really changed who has is.  I really don’t even recognize him right now.  

I’m a bit confused now. So this is the issue that started the thread?

I think this type of behavior is very common in young adults, especially those who feel things deeply and passionately. My spouse was more like this when we married, but has greatly mellowed over time. I also see it in my son at times, and have definitely had to talk him down at times. I think I may have felt just as deeply about some things at that age, but have always been so reserved that I rarely, if ever, expressed it. To some extent, I think it’s actually healthy that he can share those feelings with you. Of course he needs to learn to do it in a respectful way. And he needs to learn to figure out ways to bring about positive, constructive change. But I think I’d be more concerned if a young adult male did not have an outlet to express his thoughts and emotions concerning things about which he has strong feelings.

Edited by Frances
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4 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m a bit confused now. So this is the issue that started the thread?

I think this type of behavior is very common in young adults, especially those who feel things deeply and passionately. My spouse was more like this when we married, but has greatly mellowed over time. I also see it in my son at times. I think I may have felt just as deeply about some things at that age, but have always been so reserved that I rarely, if ever, expressed it. To some extent, I think it’s actually healthy that he can share those feelings with you. Of course he needs to learn to do it in a respectful way. But I think I’d be more concerned if a young adult male did not have an outlet to express his thoughts and emotions about things over which he has strong feelings.

No it isn’t 

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I also got in a huge fight (okay, not actually huge, but for my FOO where you almost never criticized anyone for anything or suggested in any way that things weren't hunky-dory, it was huge) with my mom about food when I first stopped eating factory farmed food.  I was 25 or so and I really thought I'd discovered this amazing thing that she just didn't know, so I thought by telling her all about it (how animals are abused in factory farms) I was helping her out, like you tell your mom when there's a great sale on peanut butter at the grocery store.  I was shocked, shocked, that she didn't want to hear it.  It took me a while to realize she really was not going to change her behavior because of this new information I'd provided her and it took her a while to realize I was quite serious about it and wouldn't cave on it for this or that issue of convenience.  It was not a great time.

fwiw, validating my care for animals would not have helped, lol.  not calling me a fanatic would have helped, but we got through it anyway.

It just seemed so obvious to me, and still does of course, and I found it very hard to reconcile myself to the idea that my family would take a different position on it.  They also found it hard, I think, to reconcile themselves to the idea that I wasn't going to change my mind about it; none of us are religious but I think it was almost like if I'd been raised a fervent Christian and discovered one day that I didn't believe and that the church was a lie (that is, somehow I'd found direct evidence of the leaders having made up the texts or something) - maybe think of me as having been a YEC and having gone to university and realized that was not accurate.  I thought revealing this newfound truth to them was an enormous benefit I was offering, and I bet I'd do the same if I were raised Christian and discovered one day that it was false, and it was recieved in much the same way that kind of revelation would be.

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9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Mom being 'the safe person' isn't actually an excuse for an adult son to take out his anger on her, or even to express valid anger towards her in an inappropriate way. 

Being a 'safe person' isn't code for 'will take it all so therefore should take it all'. 

It is OK for Scarlett's adult son to be mad at her. It's his responsibility to express it appropriately.

 

 

I agree, but I don't think the fact that he isn't being reasonable about it doesn't mean he won't eventually be reasonable or that he doesn't still love her.  

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22 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

My son doesn't have a male to do this, as his dad has pretty much checked out of parenting, and I have found that - infrequently, but it does happen - ego escalation is a real thing, and there's a dismissiveness of female authority in the form of mum  - I have to front that ego escalation HARD and use a more stereotypically male form of communication.  "STOP. You may NOT speak to me like that. " instead of my usual "Hey, what's going on ? That sounded really dismissive to me, and I feel like you're not really prepared to listen to me at the moment.  Do you wanna come back to this later ?"

So yeah, it's a thing. 

 

My mom raised four sons, she said that with each of them around age 14 (so, probably about when they started getting taller than her, and when testosterone is really ramping up) they stopped responding to her as an authority figure. She had to get my dad involved if she wanted them to actually pay attention.

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15 minutes ago, maize said:

My mom raised four sons, she said that with each of them around age 14 (so, probably about when they started getting taller than her, and when testosterone is really ramping up) they stopped responding to her as an authority figure. She had to get my dad involved if she wanted them to actually pay attention.

 

That's also the age when in many societies young men are no longer under the direct authority of their mothers but become part of men's society, sort of.  We have an extended childhood in a way in the West, which is great in a lot of ways but does create challenges when combined with biology.

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55 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Mom being 'the safe person' isn't actually an excuse for an adult son to take out his anger on her, or even to express valid anger towards her in an inappropriate way. 

Being a 'safe person' isn't code for 'will take it all so therefore should take it all'. 

It is OK for Scarlett's adult son to be mad at her. It's his responsibility to express it appropriately.

 

THIS!

If he wants to be so grown up that he knows best how this complicated situation should go, then he can also be grown up enough to control his anger and arrogance and realise that mom isn't his emotional punching bag.

I'm sorry Scarlett. I'm so glad to hear that your husband and exh are sticking up for you. You can't fix the world for him. 

 

My daughter was angry at me because she is imperfect and I couldn't give her any easy fixes. I'm like, dear daughter, if I had that magic wand, don't you think I would've used it on myself a long time ago?! She's angry with me but she's really scared at herself/the world - and me because I can't fix it, like I could fix dinner or broken toys...

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What's crazy is that my only teenager so far (I have 7, the oldest is 14) is actually a great, level-headed, reasonable, intelligent, responsible, just, kind, well-behaved, obedient, helpful kid.  And we're just at the beginning of the coming-of-age years.  And it's hard.  Gah!  what am I going to do with 4 teenagers and a 20-something?!

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47 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

This would be one of those issues I would have to negotiate with an adult child who lived at home.

In his room with headphones ? Can't stop you.

In my loungeroom on the TV ? No. Hard no. I choose not to watch 99% of R rated movies, and his desire to watch doesn't have priority over my desire not to be exposed to R rated material in general.

Any adult son of mine who wanted to throw a temper tantrum over that is welcome to move out and have his own, personal loungeroom and TV  tuned 24/7 to R rated movies.

My bold, they would also get a comment along the lines of "your behaviour suggests you might be more interested in watching shows from the toddler section"

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1 minute ago, moonflower said:

What's crazy is that my only teenager so far (I have 7, the oldest is 14) is actually a great, level-headed, reasonable, intelligent, responsible, just, kind, well-behaved, obedient, helpful kid.  And we're just at the beginning of the coming-of-age years.  And it's hard.  Gah!  what am I going to do with 4 teenagers and a 20-something?!

You still have littles around, I think sometimes that helps keep teenagers grounded. There are people with less maturity and more needs than them and they can see that there's no way for the family to revolve around Teenage Ego Numero Uno 😄

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Mine sees the littles as impossible unfair burdens on all that should be hers alone (as the firstborn).  If only we didn't have so many kids, all our money and time and space would be hers, hers, HERS!  And there would be no cleaning, none.  She is very grounded compared to her single-child cousin, but wow does she resent  having to share.  

Which, I get it, sharing is not that much fun. And when you're a lot older than most of them and they're loud and messy, it's hard to see the benefits of so many siblings.  I'm thinking when she grows up and has a great support network she'll be happier.

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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

He is extremely justice conscious,  He has been shaken to the core over some things that have transpired in our congregation. Me acknowledging there are some serious issues isn’t enough for him.  He wants heads to roll.  So I see it as a good quality that can turn toxic if one can’t exercise some measure of grace and maturity.  

It has really changed who has is.  I really don’t even recognize him right now.  

 

Is he right that heads should roll? If he is as angry as you say he is, and he has been angry for the past three years, this sounds like something very serious.

Is it something that would result in him leaving the church? Does he feel like you’re choosing your church over him? 

You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal — I’m just thinking out loud. 

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18 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Mine sees the littles as impossible unfair burdens on all that should be hers alone (as the firstborn).  If only we didn't have so many kids, all our money and time and space would be hers, hers, HERS!  And there would be no cleaning, none.  She is very grounded compared to her single-child cousin, but wow does she resent  having to share.  

Which, I get it, sharing is not that much fun. And when you're a lot older than most of them and they're loud and messy, it's hard to see the benefits of so many siblings.  I'm thinking when she grows up and has a great support network she'll be happier.

This was mine also. She spends lots of times moaninf about how horrible her life was because “mom was so busy popping out babies that she never had time to....” insert whatever fun thing she missed out on. 

I just have 4 kids, spread out over 10 years.

weve also dealt with elder care stuff so my kids have seen that firsthand. 

My second chooses to see multiple siblings as “hey we can all take turns wiping mom and dads butts when they’re old!”

Edited by fairfarmhand
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I do think there is a difference in how it feels to have mom refuse to attend an event that you are part of, and having mom refuse to attend (or to attend over your wishes) some third party thing - be that someone else wedding, a different church, etc. One is about feeling rejected and hurt personally, the other is just them judging something that doesn't truly involve them. 

So, if I invited my mom to XYZ event to support me in something important to me and she refused that would feel and be different from me thinking she should attend some event I'm not a part of. 

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4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Well to be clear that is not the situation he is currently angry at me about.  

He has been angry for almost 3 years.  

 

I think he should move out ASAP. I feel for you. I have an angry (with me) 20 year old son.  He moved out recently, and that’s a very good thing.  I love him, but I don’t miss him living here. When he’s not angry, ready to follow our house rules, and not miserable to be around, I’d welcome him back if he needed/wanted to be here. But, I hope he never needs to move back, because I think he just needs independence from me and living with me = failure in his mind, which makes him mad, and me miserable. 

So, I’d suggest moving up the move out timeline. 

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1 hour ago, moonflower said:

Mine sees the littles as impossible unfair burdens on all that should be hers alone (as the firstborn).  If only we didn't have so many kids, all our money and time and space would be hers, hers, HERS!  And there would be no cleaning, none.  She is very grounded compared to her single-child cousin, but wow does she resent  having to share.  

Which, I get it, sharing is not that much fun. And when you're a lot older than most of them and they're loud and messy, it's hard to see the benefits of so many siblings.  I'm thinking when she grows up and has a great support network she'll be happier.

 

43 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

This was mine also. She spends lots of times moaninf about how horrible her life was because “mom was so busy popping out babies that she never had time to....” insert whatever fun thing she missed out on. 

I just have 4 kids, spread out over 10 years.

weve also dealt with elder care stuff so my kids have seen that firsthand. 

My second chooses to see multiple siblings as “hey we can all take turns wiping mom and dads butts when they’re old!”

Maybe we've just been lucky with older sibling personalities. Or maybe having the oldest few close together helps? Older kids did not resent the youngers in my own or my husband's FOO, nor do my olders resent the youngers--well, other than the inflexible stages where some can't fathom little people being less mature in their thinking and behavior than their own exceedingly mature selves 😄

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On 9/14/2019 at 6:04 PM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

.....until the cousin gets to endure under the spotlight of being the only child where you are IT- the one and only- the bearer of all the pressures to succeed-  and there is no other failure/drama from a sibling to distract your very invested parents, who have no other child to distract them from your adult adventures and those of your children, for better or worse. (Said by an only child). 

Hopefully your dd gets to realize all of that with age. The realization as well that, unless you have a great extended network, your parents are your ONLY family unless you marry and have kids. That's a pretty isolating realization. It's my norm. But I do envy people with close extended families. I know they bring their own drama. But as an only at this point in my life, there is something appealing about people to (theoretically) be around to help deal with children, networks, and aging parents. (Although I know from my own Mother and her Mother's decline, that siblings are no guarantee of help there either, sadly.) 

Nm

Edited by Frances
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3 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

Is he right that heads should roll? If he is as angry as you say he is, and he has been angry for the past three years, this sounds like something very serious.

Is it something that would result in him leaving the church? Does he feel like you’re choosing your church over him? 

You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal — I’m just thinking out loud. 

No heads don’t need to roll...I mean he literally thinks a few key people should be publicly  shamed or something.  He just can’t let it go.  Some of it is just stuff that is unwise personal decisions but not sinful and not his business.  

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3 hours ago, StephanieZ said:

 

I think he should move out ASAP. I feel for you. I have an angry (with me) 20 year old son.  He moved out recently, and that’s a very good thing.  I love him, but I don’t miss him living here. When he’s not angry, ready to follow our house rules, and not miserable to be around, I’d welcome him back if he needed/wanted to be here. But, I hope he never needs to move back, because I think he just needs independence from me and living with me = failure in his mind, which makes him mad, and me miserable. 

So, I’d suggest moving up the move out timeline. 

He moved out. A week ago.  It has been a relief in many ways.  He is just going to have to find his way.  

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

No heads don’t need to roll...I mean he literally thinks a few key people should be publicly  shamed or something.  He just can’t let it go.  Some of it is just stuff that is unwise personal decisions but not sinful and not his business.  

I think he will gain perspective with maturity and life experience. He has a very solid foundation with loving parents.

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I was a lot friendlier with my parents, especially my dad, once I moved out.  Part of this was realizing how much they had organized about my life for me that I was taking for granted and part of it was just getting older and wiser.

I think it's a pretty normal part of 20-ish-hood to be strongly idealistic about things, to be very justice driven and not that mercy driven, etc.  Personally I think a lot of this is alleviated by marriage; once you have to live in compromise with someone 24/7, not because they're in a position of power over you necessarily, like parents, but because you love them and want to live with them peaceably and make a life you both feel right about, you sort of learn to moderate the extremes somewhat.

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Hi @Scarlett. My dad and I are actually stuck in the middle of what turns out to be a faith-based disagreement.  He very much wants me to participate in activities that I cannot participate in.  He thinks I am rejecting his faith by not agreeing to join him in these activities.  Furthermore, by me saying "Stop asking me to do this", I am in essence asking him to abandon part of his faith.  He has angrily and tearfully yelled at me that no one, not even me, can make him give up his faith.  I am not asking him to give up his faith.  I'm asking him to stop demanding I participate in his faith.  And no, this isn't something as simple as going to church with my dad.  I wish this was a simple disagreement about church attendance. 

There's no solution to the disagreement with my dad.  There is absolutely no middle ground, no compromise here. Either he has to change his mind completely or I do, and neither is likely to happen.  It's definitely impacted our relationship.  I talk with and see him less often.  I would like to see him and talk with him more, but if I do, he's on my case about why won't I XYZ like God wants me to?  It's hard to be in a relationship with someone that constantly reminds you that you are failing to meet their (and God's?) expectations.  It's exhausting, honestly. 

I think I'd feel better if my Dad had ever tried to really understand my perspective on life, faith, spirituality.  He says he's tried, but I think his version of "trying" is "Let's look for a weak spot in her belief system, so I can move in and turn her around to my way of thinking".  Despite what my dad thinks, I actually do have a moral compass, and what he's asking me to do violates it, so I will not capitulate.   

I'm sorry you find yourself in a tough spot, Scarlett.  I hope that with time you and your son can find some middle ground and peace.  

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27 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

So are you unhappy about his new living arrangement?

No.  Not at all. He married the girl he has been dating for a year. The  ‘thing’ he is mad at me about is unrelated to them as a couple.  He will have to grow up and come around to seeing I did what I felt was right.  I wish them well but I am a little concerned that his ‘my wayor the highway approach won’t serve him well in a marriage.’

 

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7 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Hi @Scarlett. My dad and I are actually stuck in the middle of what turns out to be a faith-based disagreement.  He very much wants me to participate in activities that I cannot participate in.  He thinks I am rejecting his faith by not agreeing to join him in these activities.  Furthermore, by me saying "Stop asking me to do this", I am in essence asking him to abandon part of his faith.  He has angrily and tearfully yelled at me that no one, not even me, can make him give up his faith.  I am not asking him to give up his faith.  I'm asking him to stop demanding I participate in his faith.  And no, this isn't something as simple as going to church with my dad.  I wish this was a simple disagreement about church attendance. 

There's no solution to the disagreement with my dad.  There is absolutely no middle ground, no compromise here. Either he has to change his mind completely or I do, and neither is likely to happen.  It's definitely impacted our relationship.  I talk with and see him less often.  I would like to see him and talk with him more, but if I do, he's on my case about why won't I XYZ like God wants me to?  It's hard to be in a relationship with someone that constantly reminds you that you are failing to meet their (and God's?) expectations.  It's exhausting, honestly. 

I think I'd feel better if my Dad had ever tried to really understand my perspective on life, faith, spirituality.  He says he's tried, but I think his version of "trying" is "Let's look for a weak spot in her belief system, so I can move in and turn her around to my way of thinking".  Despite what my dad thinks, I actually do have a moral compass, and what he's asking me to do violates it, so I will not capitulate.   

I'm sorry you find yourself in a tough spot, Scarlett.  I hope that with time you and your son can find some middle ground and peace.  

To be clear I am not doing that to my son.  He has been doing it to me.  He wants me to see things his way.  I have listened, I have been kind and I have told him he is responsible for his own choices and I am responsible for mine.  

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I'm sorry Scarlett 😞

Are he and his wife living near you? Are you seeing or talking with each other daily?

I'm wondering if some space might help, give him a chance to stop using you as a focus for his negative emotions.

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14 minutes ago, maize said:

I'm sorry Scarlett 😞

Are he and his wife living near you? Are you seeing or talking with each other daily?

I'm wondering if some space might help, give him a chance to stop using you as a focus for his negative emotions.

They aren’t too far away but we definitely aren’t talking.  Space is required for sure.  

I will be ok.....I have good friends, a great husband  and I have peace that I did the right thing.  If he never comes around I will be sad but I am not going to let it ruin the rest of my life.  

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30 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

They aren’t too far away but we definitely aren’t talking.  Space is required for sure.  

I will be ok.....I have good friends, a great husband  and I have peace that I did the right thing.  If he never comes around I will be sad but I am not going to let it ruin the rest of my life.  

 

I feel like I must be misunderstanding you.

You wouldn’t feel that it ruined your life if you never had contact with your son again? 

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6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I feel like I must be misunderstanding you.

You wouldn’t feel that it ruined your life if you never had contact with your son again? 

I took what she said to mean that she would go forward...because what other choice is there? Of course it would break a parent's heart to have a child cut off contact. But if I child did--and it wasn't the parent's fault--that parent still has to be able to build some kind of satisfying life despite the heartbreak. Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt every day.

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15 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

I took what she said to mean that she would go forward...because what other choice is there? Of course it would break a parent's heart to have a child cut off contact. But if I child did--and it wasn't the parent's fault--that parent still has to be able to build some kind of satisfying life despite the heartbreak. Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt every day.

 

This just happened. I wouldn’t even be able to think about “going forward” without my son. 

Edited by Catwoman
I misread your post at first. Sorry!
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20 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

This just happened. I wouldn’t even be able to think about “going forward” without my son. 

It didn’t just happen.  This has been going on for the entire summer...frankly I am exhausted from trying to be the bigger person and get through each day.  What would you have me do Cat? Lie down and collapse completely?  I still have to get up and breath every day, be a wife, a step mom a daughter a worshiper of my God.  One person turning on me for keeping my faith should be allowed to destroy the rest of my life?

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10 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It didn’t just happen.  This has been going on for the entire summer...frankly I am exhausted from trying to be the bigger person and get through each day.  What would you have me do Cat? Lie down and collapse completely?  I still have to get up and breath every day, be a wife, a step mom a daughter a worshiper of my God.  One person turning on me for keeping my faith should be allowed to destroy the rest of my life?

 

Oh wow. Did he leave your church and is he insisting that you leave, too? 

I mean, I know it would be very painful for you if he abandoned your faith, but he would still be your son and you would still love him, but is he saying that if you don’t leave your faith, he won’t have anything to do with you? 

I hope that isn’t what is happening. Because he’s not just “one person turning on you.” This is your only son, and I know he means the world to you. I’m so sorry.

 

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