.

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But what if your parent felt their attendance was equivalent to participating in something they were morally opposed to..

Then they are likely as mistaken in that belief as public bakers who refuse to make wedding cakes for gay couples and public employees who refuse to issue marriage certificates. They are playing God and imposing their beliefs and standards on others who may believe differently about an issue that causes no harm to anyone. And acting like doing it is condoning or participating or enabling the marriage, when it is not. And I’m sure feeling morally superior at the same time. They should probably worry more about their own sins and shortcomings and less about those of others.

Of course if you are being invited to rob a bank or murder someone with your adult child, then obviously they shouldn’t be mad or surprised when you refuse.

[maize]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Your relationship with your family is more important than your relationship with God?

And everyone can decide .

 

Is doing the thing you will not do a major sin--that is, in the unmarried couple living together example, is entering the house of an unmarried couple a major sin according to your beliefs? Not is living together unmarried major sin. This matters.

Jesus did not himself commit sins, but he also did not hesitate to enter the homes of sinners or eat with sinners. He was not sullied by relationships with imperfect people, nor was he concerned that by interacting with them he was condoning their sins.

[hjffkj]

There are things I would not be able to support my children in but those are few. One example, I would not drive them or their significant other to an abortion clinic.  However,  I would  help take care of them afterwards if they need physical or emotional help during the healing process.  I would strongly urge them to consider other options and make it clear that I could not support them in their decision to go through with an abortion.  However, I would also be there for them through anything they need after the fact if that is their decision.

[Frances]

Just one instance where a parent agreeing to attend an event to which he was morally opposed had a profoundly positive effect on his teenage son who has been sucked into the alt right online.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2019/05/05/what-happened-after-my-13-year-old-son-joined-the-alt-right/

[catz]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Your relationship with your family is more important than your relationship with God?

And everyone can decide .

Well, I have what I would call a unique "spirituality" for this board (I attend a UU church).   But nurturing those relationships is literally sacred to me.  My moral boundaries are my own.  My adult children's may differ.  That doesn't mean I need to damage our relationship because my adult children make a different choice than me.  Being there for someone doesn't entail that you agree with every decision they make.  

And I agree an adult kid has every reason and right to be angry and pull away in a circumstance like that.  Parents of adult children aren't entitled to have them walk in their footsteps forever.  They need to find their own path.

Edited September 14, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[iamonlyone]

18 minutes ago, LMD said:

It's just accepting what you do have control over and what you don't. I wouldn't exactly say stewing in their juices, I don't want them to suffer and letting it just be isn't a punishment or manipulation.

You say, "I know x decision upsets you and I am very sorry to have hurt you. I hope you know that I don't make this decision lightly or maliciously, but because I have to do what I believe is right."

I wouldn't engage after that. Even if they continue to vent, just let them get those clouds moving. You've said your piece, your clouds are clear. Just wait for the blue sky.

 

I agree with this. I try to remind myself that I am only responsible for my own actions and feelings--not others'.

My mom took it personally that my husband and I moved when he got a great career opportunity elsewhere. Even though we moved only 2 hours away (instead of being half an hour away), she introduced me for the next 10 years as "my daughter, who had to move out of state to get away from me." 🙄

Even though I knew I was right to move with my husband and not stay close to her or demand he pass up the job to stay closer to her, it hurt my feelings that she held a grudge. (And, yes, I know her stance is narcissistic behavior.) I did what I could do--visit, invite, call, etc.--to encourage the relationship and talked my frustration and disappointment out with my husband. She passed away a couple years ago, and she still resented not being first in my priorities, but we shared lots of adventures and she was an always-there supporter of my children. So, even though it was hard, I'm glad I tried to take the high ground and preserve my end of the relationship.

[Rosie_0801]

If one treats their family member as an inappropriate or insufficient person, one must expect their affection levels to recede. That's only natural.

 

[Frances]

31 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

But what if the kid has known all his life that his mother strongly objects to that kind of living arrangement, and knows that she won’t visit the homes of unmarried couples who live together? Does he still have the right to be angry with her and distance himself from his relationship with her when he knows she’s following her own moral code and not doing what she’s doing out of meanness or spite?

Obviously, this is all theoretical because we’re all on a rabbit trail here, and I wouldn’t have the same reaction because I don’t have strong feelings against living together before marriage, but I’m trying to figure out if the kid would really have grounds to be angry with his mom, having known her feelings on the issue for many years. 

I think there is a pretty profound difference between objecting to living together before marriage and holding yourself to that standard and refusing to visit the homes of unmarried couples living together. I think many people would want to distance themself from someone who practices the latter, especially if that person is professing to be a Christian, as it’s pretty much the exact opposite of what Jesus did.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Frances

[LMD]

I can absolutely imagine a scenario where my need to be able to speak/live what I genuinely believe to be true is more important than capitulating because my relationship with someone, even my child, might be affected. That would feel like an inauthentic relationship to me. Lovingly holding my boundaries does not have to be a bad, relationship ending thing.

[hjffkj]

10 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well, I have what I would call a unique "spirituality" for this board (I attend a UU church).   But nurturing those relationships is literally sacred to me.  My moral boundaries are my own.  My adult children's may differ.  That doesn't mean I need to damage our relationship because my adult children make a different choice than me.  Being there for someone doesn't need to entail you agree with every decision they make.  

And I agree an adult kid has every reason and right to be angry and pull away in a circumstance like that.  Parents of adult children aren't entitled to have them walk in their footsteps forever.  They need to find their own path.

 

I am far from the adult children phase but I am a Catholic and this is my view.  I have my devout Catholic parents to thank for this I think.  They have 7 living children, 3 of whom are agnostic at best but likely atheist.  And even the 4 who are Catholic don't all line up with their beliefs. But no matter what choices their children made they found a way to support it while being true to their moral codes.  When most of their kids got married outside of the Church (I was one of them)  they only showed love and support for our decisions, while privately praying that we would eventually choose a church marriage eventually (3 of the 4 current practicing Catholics originally eloped and eventually all got married in the Church.)

When 2 siblings got pregnant before marriage all they did was love and support the parents during pregnancy and never judged them on not being married first.  When my older siblings lived with significant others they allowed younger siblings to still visit their houses regularly,  but their line in the sand was that younger siblings couldn't spend the night at a non-married couples house as to create a comfortable boundary for their beliefs and their relationship with their children.

There are countless examples of when all 7 of us went against my parents beliefs at one point or another and they NEVER held it against us.  They just privately prayed harder.

[Scarlett]

43 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

This is what I find odd - if it’s birthdays, yeah, why this year to get in a tizzy about it. 

I agree to just let it blow over unless it is your own child that is having a hard time not celebrating his own birthday. I would be extra careful in that case. Does your faith allow for acknowledging birthdays as opposed to making a party over it? Because I would want to let my own child know s/he is valued and loved et al.

Well it isn’t a birthday thing. But something important. 

[Scarlett]

40 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

I am far from the adult children phase but I am a Catholic and this is my view.  I have my devout Catholic parents to thank for this I think.  They have 7 living children, 3 of whom are agnostic at best but likely atheist.  And even the 4 who are Catholic don't all line up with their beliefs. But no matter what choices their children made they found a way to support it while being true to their moral codes.  When most of their kids got married outside of the Church (I was one of them)  they only showed love and support for our decisions, while privately praying that we would eventually choose a church marriage eventually (3 of the 4 current practicing Catholics originally eloped and eventually all got married in the Church.)

When 2 siblings got pregnant before marriage all they did was love and support the parents during pregnancy and never judged them on not being married first.  When my older siblings lived with significant others they allowed younger siblings to still visit their houses regularly,  but their line in the sand was that younger siblings couldn't spend the night at a non-married couples house as to create a comfortable boundary for their beliefs and their relationship with their children.

There are countless examples of when all 7 of us went against my parents beliefs at one point or another and they NEVER held it against us.  They just privately prayed harder.

I guess the comparison would be....what if the adult child was furious at your parents for. not allowing minor children to spend the night at their home ( living together unmarried)?

[maize]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I guess the comparison would be....what if the adult child was furious at your parents for. not allowing minor children to spend the night at their home ( living together unmarried)?

If that is the important line for the parent they will just have to accept that, like anyone, they can choose their own actions but can't choose how others will react to those actions.

The child's reaction may be entirely unreasonable, but that reaction is the reality.

 

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I think there are sometimes hard choices to be made between one's lifelong values, and the child-parent relationship. 

Having said that, one's values can only be so elastic. They are not endlessly capable of stretching to include everything. 

But yes, it's really hard when you have a clash of values - say, on the one hand, it's important to me that I continue to offer a loving, warm relationship with my adult child, but on the other hand, it's also important to me that I don't appear to condone behaviour I consider immoral (sticking with the living together before marriage example). Rock and a hard place.

I might have to consider things pretty deeply - does, say, my attendance at the home of my unmarried child and partner, condone immorality ? Can my value remain my value, even as I accept it is not the value of a loved one ? Are there options, other lines that can be drawn ? Can I discuss with my child my feelings, in the context of acknowledging their adult choice ? Who am I most worried about ? Me, my soul, my child, their soul, what others outside of our relationship might think ?

Maybe I decide I can manage a situation where I clearly state to adult kid that I do not agree with his choice, that I am disappointed they made it, but that I accept he is not me, and will attend their home for special occasions in light of that mutual clarity ? Maybe I decide that I will endeavour to limit my visits to their home, and only invite them to mine ? Maybe i decide that this isn't a decision I am willing to spend cash on, but that's as far as it goes. Maybe the objection falls away in the face of my desire to prioritise my relationship with the child.

Once I've made my decision, it's up to me to handle any emotional distress I experience  as a result. Equally, once the decisions are made, it's up to the adult child to handle their own emotions about it. It's not respectful for either adult in the situation to continue to attempt to persuade each other as to why they are right, and the other wrong.

In general, I think there is a line to walk re values, that is neither rigid, nor loose, but somewhere in between - strong but flexible enough to cope with challenge. To take moonflower's example, to not be so rigid that one refuses to be anywhere that animal products may be served, but strong enough to say 'Hey, I know this meal is important to you, and that it's inconvenient I can't allow it at my home - how about we meet up at a picnic ground instead, and each bring the food that makes us feel good about the celebration.'

So - idk - with the living together one - "I know it's important to you that I acknowledge your relationship, and I know it hurts that I don't feel I can do that by visiting you at your house. But you guys matter to me, and I am happy to have you in my home whenever you want to visit. Maybe we could make a date once a month to all meet up for dinner and spend time together in a less fraught environment for all of us."

Of course, you can't control the reaction of other's to your thought-through decision. That's hard also, in a different way.  But their emotions are a them-problem, not a you-problem. 

 

I don’t really believe I am overly rigid.  But I do live my life in a way that puts God before people. Heck who knows, maybe that is why I am not still married to husband number one.  He loved me deeply, but he did not love God and he was constantly trying to get me to abandon my faith after he had promised  me he would be faithful.  In the end he was neither faithful to God or me. 

Since everyone has already figured out this is about my son, I will say, I have never loved another human as much as my son.  I have never given as much of myself to anyone as I have my son.  So to have him, IMO, turn on me, is excruciatingly painful.  I have had many friends calling me and texting me today to offer their support during this horrific time.  They tell me this is just the immaturity of youth....and that he will eventually come around.  We shall see.  

[Catwoman]

54 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think there is a pretty profound difference between objecting to living together before marriage and holding yourself to that standard and refusing to visit the homes of unmarried couples living together. I think many people would want to distance themself from someone who practices the latter, especially if that person is professing to be a Christian, as it’s pretty much the exact opposite of what Jesus did.

 

I wonder if certain religions actually prohibit something like that — like in the hypothetical situation we have been talking about where if you visit an unmarried couple who are living together, it would be the same as condoning their actions, so in that case it would actually be sinful for Scarlett to visit them. I have no idea. I am not very familiar with Scarlett’s religion, so I’m not sure exactly what is and what is not considered to be immoral. (And obviously, this is probably not about an unmarried couple living together, but it’s what we have been working with so Scarlett doesn’t have to detail the actual situation.)

I don’t have the same belief system, so I’m just trying to support Scarlett. I know she is a very religious person, and we all know that she loves her son with all her heart, so this must be a pretty big deal if she feels she has to choose between her faith and accepting whatever her son has done (because apparently there is a big moral divide.) I hate to see her in such a tough situation, and I hope that with a little time and some compromise on both sides, everything will work out between them. 

[catz]

There is a good chance he feels that you turned on him as well if this is a line in the sand that you've chosen to draw and this isn't a hard written rule of your faith.

 I'm sorry you're having a hard time.  Having adult children is hard, but it's harder if you have unrealistic expectations.  They will step away and stumble and they will learn and grow.  I hope you can both take time to step back and heal.  

[Frances]

Just now, Catwoman said:

 

I wonder if certain religions actually prohibit something like that — like in the hypothetical situation we have been talking about where if you visit an unmarried couple who are living together, it would be the same as condoning their actions, so in that case it would actually be sinful for Scarlett to visit them. I have no idea. I am not very familiar with Scarlett’s religion, so I’m not sure exactly what is and what is not considered to be immoral. (And obviously, this is probably not about an unmarried couple living together, but it’s what we have been working with so Scarlett doesn’t have to detail the actual situation.)

I don’t have the same belief system, so I’m just trying to support Scarlett. I know she is a very religious person, and we all know that she loves her son with all her heart, so this must be a pretty big deal if she feels she has to choose between her faith and accepting whatever her son has done (because apparently there is a big moral divide.) I hate to see her in such a tough situation, and I hope that with a little time and some compromise on both sides, everything will work out between them. 

Just because a religion prohibits something, it doesn’t make it immoral or wrong. The US has a long history of some Christians using religious beliefs to make the immoral, moral (e.g. slavery, segregation, removing Native American children from their homes and sending them to Christian boarding schools, etc.) and the moral, immoral (e.g. prohibiting interracial marriage). I don’t think people should automatically get a pass because it is what their religion teaches or what they believe is moral.

But I too hope they can come to a peaceful and loving resolution with no damage to their relationship.

[maize]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t really believe I am overly rigid.  But I do live my life in a way that puts God before people. 

 

Where do people fit within your understanding of God and religion?

My personal understanding is that we serve God when we serve the people around us. There is a great deal of room in that understanding for honoring God through showing patience and understanding and compassion and forgiveness for people in all their foolishness and imperfections.

There are times I have chosen a stance or action that an individual or group of individuals perceived as harsh or lacking compassion, when I felt that stance overall was the one more aligned with goodness and likely to cause the least harm in the long run. Sometimes people perceive good differently, and we do have to follow our own conscience.

There aren't a lot of those lines in the sand though, and there is a lot of room for expressing God-honoring love of others in spite of sin or wrong on their part.

[hjffkj]

26 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I guess the comparison would be....what if the adult child was furious at your parents for. not allowing minor children to spend the night at their home ( living together unmarried)?

 

Well I don't think my parents ever told them they weren't allowed.  It was simply always a 'no, an overnight won't work this weekend' when the subject came up, there decisions weren't questioned because my parents picked their battles very wisely and we knew them to be fair in their decisions.  It was frustrating for the older sibling and the younger sibling (me.)  Basically, once we were adults, my parents rarely discussed their beliefs, especially when it conflicted with one of their children's life.  We all know their beliefs and since they've never showed any judgement towards us and stayed silent when we made adult decisions (and many times decisions while older teens) they disagreed with their is a level of respect there that everyone knows the boundaries without them needing to be spoken.

[Scarlett]

10 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Where do people fit within your understanding of God and religion?

My personal understanding is that we serve God when we serve the people around us. There is a great deal of room in that understanding for honoring God through showing patience and understanding and compassion and forgiveness for people in all their foolishness and imperfections.

There are times I have chosen a stance or action that an individual or group of individuals perceived as harsh or lacking compassion, when I felt that stance overall was the one more aligned with goodness and likely to cause the least harm in the long run. Sometimes people perceive good differently, and we do have to follow our own conscience.

There aren't a lot of those lines in the sand though, and there is a lot of room for expressing God-honoring love of others in spite of sin or wrong on their part.

Basically people come after God. But sure within that framework, people can be shown a lot of love and kindness even when they are not in harmony with with what is our belief. 

[Bluegoat]

"I can absolutely imagine a scenario where my need to be able to speak/live what I genuinely believe to be true is more important than capitulating because my relationship with someone, even my child, might be affected. That would feel like an inauthentic relationship to me. Lovingly holding my boundaries does not have to be a bad, relationship ending thing."

Yes, so can I, I have a difficult time understanding where someone could not.  

What I would say about adult children is that if they make choices that we really have a moral problem with, those are their choices and we are no longer in a position where we should be putting ourselves in a place of authority as we would have when they were kids.  We can offer advice, even very frank talk in some cases, but respecting their personhood means allowing them the decision and not going on endlessly about it, like any other adult.

But of course that's totally different than actually participating in something yourself.

A complication sometimes with kids who live at home is the fact that while it's your home, it's also in a way their home, you are sharing to some extent with another adult.  So lets say my kid wanted to have a party with an activity I disapproved of, like a stripper popping out of a cake.  Maybe even say I wasn't going to be there so it wouldn't bother me directly.  Should I live with it because it is also their house, or is that a sort of participation on my part?

I tend to think both people likely feel that this place is their home, and so the other should defer.  In the end obviously the owner gets to make the call and I would say no.  But if the child is taking it really hard, it is negatively impacting the relationship, I still would say no.  And TBH I do not think it would be healthy for the relationship to give in just to maintain the relationship, if that makes sense.  

[hjffkj]

can I ask how he turned on you??  Has he cut off all communication? Has he stopped coming around when he normally does but still has some communication? How fresh is the wound?  

I'm sure you are in a lot of pain and I'm sorry to hear that.  It may very well be that he will grow out of it but I think all you can do as the parent is let him know that your are always open to a relationship and also continually evaluate how important the issue is from your stand point. I have a really hard time imagining most religious issues so severely interfering with a relationship with a child that has been otherwise healthy.

[Bluegoat]

16 minutes ago, Frances said:

Just because a religion prohibits something, it doesn’t make it immoral or wrong. The US has a long history of some Christians using religious beliefs to make the immoral, moral (e.g. slavery, segregation, removing Native American children from their homes and sending them to Christian boarding schools, etc.) and the moral, immoral (e.g. prohibiting interracial marriage). I don’t think people should automatically get a pass because it is what their religion teaches or what they believe is moral.

But I too hope they can come to a peaceful and loving resolution with no damage to their relationship.

 

But what other metric are you going to use.  You could say the same about any ethical stance, it could be wrong.  

[Scarlett]

18 minutes ago, Frances said:

Just because a religion prohibits something, it doesn’t make it immoral or wrong. The US has a long history of some Christians using religious beliefs to make the immoral, moral (e.g. slavery, segregation, removing Native American children from their homes and sending them to Christian boarding schools, etc.) and the moral, immoral (e.g. prohibiting interracial marriage). I don’t think people should automatically get a pass because it is what their religion teaches or what they believe is moral.

But I too hope they can come to a peaceful and loving resolution with no damage to their relationship.

I agree.  But if you are aware a person has strong beliefs  about a subject.....why be angey at them for holding fast?

[LMD]

You know that deep down he knows you. He knows he can trust you to be who you've always been (ie, the person who loves him more than life and has strong convictions). It's okay to vehemently disagree and be hurt and upset - we're human and relationships are messy - but don't let that speak a lie to the foundation, history and truth of who you are to each other. Trust in that foundation, trust in God's plan for both of you.

[hjffkj]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I agree.  But if you are aware a person has strong beliefs  about a subject.....why be angey at them for holding fast?

 

Because if you don't agree with them on that belief and it effects your relationship with them than it can be incredibly heartbreaking to realize that the relationship with your parent will be changing.  It is completely natural to be angry when something like that effects you personally for the first time

[maize]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I agree.  But if you are aware a person has strong beliefs  about a subject.....why be angey at them for holding fast?

 

4 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

Because if you don't agree with them on that belief and it effects your relationship with them than it can be incredibly heartbreaking to realize that the relationship with your parent will be changing.  It is completely natural to be angry when something like that effects you personally for the first time

And also... because young adults are young and immature and tend to be quite self referential in their thinking. Presumably whatever choice he has made is justified in his own mind and that justification seems so true and right to him that of course you ought to see things the same way and rejecting his choice equates to a rejection of him.

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

Because if you don't agree with them on that belief and it effects your relationship with them than it can be incredibly heartbreaking to realize that the relationship with your parent will be changing.  It is completely natural to be angry when something like that effects you personally for the first time

Yes I suppose.  

[Frances]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I agree.  But if you are aware a person has strong beliefs  about a subject.....why be angey at them for holding fast?

 

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I agree.  But if you are aware a person has strong beliefs  about a subject.....why be angey at them for holding fast?

I can’t speak to your specific case because I don’t know what it is. But say in the case of using religious beliefs to justify not attending the marriage of an interracial couple, I think it’s very valid for someone to be angry because the belief itself is immoral and wrong. We only got to where we are today on that issue because some people had the courage to stand up for what was truly right, rather than doing what many others were taught was the moral or correct religious belief.

Do you think we should give religious extremists who kill in the name of their religion a pass because they have strong beliefs and are holding fast?

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

 

I can’t speak to your specific case because I don’t know what it is. But say in the case of using religious beliefs to justify not attending the marriage of an interracial couple, I think it’s very valid for someone to be angry because the belief itself is immoral and wrong. We only got to where we are today on that issue because some people had the courage to stand up for what was truly right, rather than doing what many others were taught was the moral or correct religious belief.

Do you think we should give religious extremists who kill in the name of their religion a pass because they have strong beliefs and are holding fast?

I guess your assumption is I might be extremist. Shrug. I bet somewhere would say yes.  I say no.  I am hopeful the relationship will be salvaged.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, moonflower said:

Well if it's religious that's usually pretty easy and in fact I often try to explain moral choices to my family in religious terms because people are more accepting ime of religious behavioral prohibitions than moral ones without religion behind them (which really really really irritates me but that's another thread).

Just say look, say your best friend was an Orthodox Jew and you wanted him to attend your wedding at your Christian church.  His religion (depending maybe on sect, as I understand it, but I'm not a Jew so I don't know for sure) says he can't enter other houses of worship.  It's as disappointing for him in this situation as it is for you, but it is what it is.

It's often easier to understand these things when they're depersonalized.

I think that’s because someone’s religion doesn’t feel like a moral judgment on everyone else.  Whereas making a judgment call outside of religion does 

[Catwoman]

35 minutes ago, Frances said:

Just because a religion prohibits something, it doesn’t make it immoral or wrong. The US has a long history of some Christians using religious beliefs to make the immoral, moral (e.g. slavery, segregation, removing Native American children from their homes and sending them to Christian boarding schools, etc.) and the moral, immoral (e.g. prohibiting interracial marriage). I don’t think people should automatically get a pass because it is what their religion teaches or what they believe is moral.

But I too hope they can come to a peaceful and loving resolution with no damage to their relationship.

 

I hope so, too.

I’m assuming that, in Scarlett’s case, she believes her son is doing something immoral that goes against her religious beliefs, and she doesn’t feel that she can be true to herself or her faith if she accepts what’s happening.

Whatever this is, it has to be BIG if Scarlett feels she has no choice but to risk her relationship with her beloved son, so even if I would have handled the situation (whatever it is) entirely differently, I have to take Scarlett at her word on this and support her in this thread. I feel like she is trying so hard to do what she believes is moral and right, and this must just about the hardest thing she has ever had to do.

I really hope there is a way for her and her son to meet in the middle and find a solution that will be acceptable to both of them.

[Frances]

40 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

But what other metric are you going to use.  You could say the same about any ethical stance, it could be wrong.  

Use whatever metric you want, just don’t be surprised when others who don’t share your religious beliefs disagree with you and don’t appreciate you trying to impose your standards on them, especially when they aren’t harming anyone.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Frances

[Sneezyone]

I don’t feel like it’s my role or obligation to stand in judgment of my adult children, particularly if they no longer live with me (or are eminently moving out). They know my values. They can adopt or eschew them as they see fit. Unless I have minor children still at home that I am concerned about influencing, I think this is the right/appropriate time to use that age-old adage—Hate the sin, love the sinner—and keep it moving.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Sneezyone

[BusyMom5]

Maybe I can offer a different perspective.   I grew up in a faith similar to yours in its rigidity.   I followed the rules, got married before we lived together, no alcohol, ect.  My husband was from a not as rigid group (Southern Baptist).  Still Christian,  but not the strict kind I was raised in.  Fast forward a few years and I have grown, studied my way out of that faith and I had to try to explain to my parents.  They disowned me.  It was awful, and from my point of view it felt like they did not love me unconditionally.   If I left their faith, I was out of the family, too.  I could have understood if I had done something truly terrible like murder, becoming a drug addict or putting their grandkids in an abusive situation.   That wasnt ever the case.  I was still a good person.  I just didnt live up to what they expected.   

 

The good news is that we did find s way to connect.  Now I'm pretty close to them, and I do understand that they were hurt, but so was I.  I think you should choose to look past whatever sin is going on with your son.  Hes still your son and he needs your love, unconditionally.   IMO not showing him unconditional love is anti- Christian.   You are choosing to make this s line in the sand,  hes trying to discover who he is.  Its not your job to judge him.  Trust me when I say he knows exactly how you feel!  I think part of my parents problem was that they could not see me as an adult, I was an extension of them, even after I was married and on my own for years!  Yes, he is allowed to have a different faith than you.  Hes allowed to make different choices than you.  Your job is to be his mother.  Be there when he falls,  support him when he needs it.  Don't make this about you.  

[Catwoman]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I guess your assumption is I might be extremist. Shrug. I bet somewhere would say yes.  I say no.  I am hopeful the relationship will be salvaged.

 

Whether or not anyone here would call you an extremist doesn’t really matter, because your son knows your beliefs and I assume your beliefs on this particular issue have always been the same, so it really shouldn’t have been a surprise to him when this whole mess happened. He knew your feelings and you feel that he knowingly disrespected both you and your faith on a very important issue. 

I can understand how that would be very painful for you. And I think your son is the same religion you are, which must make it even harder for you to see him doing something that is not acceptable or moral. 

I’m so sorry, Scarlett. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Catwoman
My iPad keeps changing “your” to “you’re.”

[Frances]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I guess your assumption is I might be extremist. Shrug. I bet somewhere would say yes.  I say no.  I am hopeful the relationship will be salvaged.

I certainly didn’t mean to imply you were anything like religious extremists who kill based on their religious beliefs, I was just taking the example to an extreme to make a point.

I know from previous posts you have very strong religious beliefs and that your denomination seems quite rigid and black and white. I just don’t think simply because someone has strong religious beliefs it means they are right or moral. So they shouldn’t be surprised if others push back against those beliefs, especially when those beliefs are being used to attempt to control the behavior of others with different beliefs and the behavior in question does not harm others.

I sincerely hope you can find a peaceful and loving resolution. Parenting adult kids is hard.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Frances

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Ok....trying to think of another analogy.  Basically me refusing to be involved  in something that is really important to the other party.  And it is a really important ‘thing’.  

 

Something as serious as my beer loving FIL trying to coerce his teetotaler son (my BIL) to drink alcohol?

ETA:

after reading the follow up. Something like changing religion? 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Arcadia

[maize]

I am sorry you are hurting Scarlett.

I am sorry your son is hurting as well; that is most often what anger derives from. 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

If one treats their family member as an inappropriate or insufficient person, one must expect their affection levels to recede. That's only natural.

 

 

Sometimes that’s true. Many times even. Other times, maybe after a long time, they may come to see a wisdom they didn’t previously understand or just didn’t want to accept.

btdt. Both sides. 

1 hour ago, LMD said:

I can absolutely imagine a scenario where my need to be able to speak/live what I genuinely believe to be true is more important than capitulating because my relationship with someone, even my child, might be affected. That would feel like an inauthentic relationship to me. Lovingly holding my boundaries does not have to be a bad, relationship ending thing.

 

This.  Friends, extended family, husbands, children as they become adults - they are individuals separate from me. Sometimes they make choices that truly break my heart and devastate me.  I love them. Happily take a bullet for them.  But some things are wrong and I’ll have no truck with those things. BECAUSE relationships matter. Because I genuinely believe those things will lead to their overall unhappiness and cause long term damage to their relationships in this life. And after this life, if they are going to Hell, let it be over my dead body and with me desperately blocking the path.

All these years, it’s not once led to a single one of my beloveds thinking I love them one bit less. 🙏🤞

Yes, Jesus loved sinners. He also told them to stop sinning.  Prostitute sin no more, not hey sure I get you disagree, I’ll be over for dinner later. 

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, moonflower said:

Well if it's religious that's usually pretty easy and in fact I often try to explain moral choices to my family in religious terms because people are more accepting ime of religious behavioral prohibitions than moral ones without religion behind them (which really really really irritates me but that's another thread).

Just say look, say your best friend was an Orthodox Jew and you wanted him to attend your wedding at your Christian church.  His religion (depending maybe on sect, as I understand it, but I'm not a Jew so I don't know for sure) says he can't enter other houses of worship.  It's as disappointing for him in this situation as it is for you, but it is what it is.

It's often easier to understand these things when they're depersonalized.

A friend not attending would be very different than a parent not attending. 

3 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

If you don't attend events in your child's home because of their chosen living situation I would absolutely expect that to have an affect on your relationship.  You are basically choosing to cut them off unless they do things on your terms.  

They can know how you feel and your beliefs.  But if your beliefs become more important than the love and the relationship, that doesn't tend to go very well.  

 

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Doesn’t everyone have beliefs that are more important than a relationship?

I believe people are made in the image of God, and that by loving the people around me that is how I live out my faith, and how my love of God. So although I wouldn't kill or steal just to please my child, I also wouldn't cut them off, or whatever, if they kill or steal. 

I look at all the stories of Jesus, and see how he felt that caring for others was more important than following the letter of the law - say saving the animal in the ditch on the Sabbath. Sure, savingt that animal was participating in something that goes against the faith in a very clear way. And yet, Jesus felt helping another being was more important than breaking a moral rule/law.  That's a God who understands grey areas, and showing compassion versus "keeping the faith". 

[SereneHome]

To answer OP - yes I think relationship can survive, but I think it will change.  May be not better or worse, just different. If, for example, my child was getting married in a church (we are not Christians), I would be VERY upset and probably angry and most likely wouldn't go to the wedding, but I wouldn't cut them out of my life and would have to re-adjust various aspects of the relationship.

It's hard for me to understand the concept of putting relationship with family above everything else bc if the person in your family does something that goes again your own values, believes, morals - how can it not change the way you see them or the type of the relationship??

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I hope so, too.

I’m assuming that, in Scarlett’s case, she believes her son is doing something immoral that goes against her religious beliefs, and she doesn’t feel that she can be true to herself or her faith if she accepts what’s happening.

Whatever this is, it has to be BIG if Scarlett feels she has no choice but to risk her relationship with her beloved son, so even if I would have handled the situation (whatever it is) entirely differently, I have to take Scarlett at her word on this and support her in this thread. I feel like she is trying so hard to do what she believes is moral and right, and this must just about the hardest thing she has ever had to do.

I really hope there is a way for her and her son to meet in the middle and find a solution that will be acceptable to both of them.

I think the difficulty, besides not knowing what the actual situation is, is what does mean to accept or not accept something you find immoral about the behavior of another person. It sounds as though he know his mom disagrees with whatever he is doing. So in that sense she is definitely not accepting it. Does he expect her to change her mind and approve of it? I can certainly understand her not wanting to change her mind about something she feels is wrong. Or is it something more along the lines of he is living with his girlfriend, he knows his mom is opposed to it, and she won’t come to their house because she sees that as condoning the behavior and maybe even sinful on her part, and he does not. He sees it as his mom being part of his and his girlfriend’s life and spending time together. That just seems like a very different situation to me. But since it’s all hypothetical without the details, it’s not really possible to understand the actual situation.

I have the same hope you do about resolving the situation.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Frances

[EmseB]

46 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

A friend not attending would be very different than a parent not attending. 

 

I believe people are made in the image of God, and that by loving the people around me that is how I live out my faith, and how my love of God. So although I wouldn't kill or steal just to please my child, I also wouldn't cut them off, or whatever, if they kill or steal. 

I look at all the stories of Jesus, and see how he felt that caring for others was more important than following the letter of the law - say saving the animal in the ditch on the Sabbath. Sure, savingt that animal was participating in something that goes against the faith in a very clear way. And yet, Jesus felt helping another being was more important than breaking a moral rule/law.  That's a God who understands grey areas, and showing compassion versus "keeping the faith". 

I think this is a selective reading of scripture. He also literally threw people out of his house who were doing things against the law. He called people to repentance with acts of mercy, but didn't sin. I think this line of thinking in your post can be used to manipulate people into doing things they don't want to do (if you really loved me, you would X. If your God is love, you would do Y for me because you love God. If you really loved Jesus you'd stay in this bad marriage with me). I also think (religion aside) sometimes the loving thing to do, for others and oneself, is to have a boundary. I think it can really hurts if that boundary affects a close family member.

Edited September 14, 2019 by EmseB

[MercyA]

Everything will be okay, Scarlett. I admire you for putting God first. That is Scriptural.

Your son knows how much you love him. This too shall pass. Hugs.

[Valley Girl]

It's hard to say without knowing what the situation is. I completely respect that you don't want to share the specifics, Scarlett. Given that, though, my opinion might change depending on what the actual deal was. I apologize in advance for rambling.

First,  I guess what I'd do is decide if the person has always known my stand and that of my faith on the issue. If so, it shouldn't be a surprise that I've taken my position. Respect is a two-way street. If someone close to me wants me to respect their view, I'm entitled to respect for mine as well even if we disagree.

What penalty does the faith impose for the behavior in question? That would drive things, too, and I'd want to be clear on what those parameters were.

Next, I'd think about how involved I was expected to be. As others have said, expecting me to permit something in my home is different from someone doing something forbidden (but legal) in his or her own home out of my presence. Expecting to me fund or otherwise make the forbidden activity possible is not reasonable.  For instance, if my faith forbids sex outside marriage, I can refuse to permit unmarried people to share a bedroom. I would still welcome the partner in my home, however.  If my religion forbids abortion, I can refuse to take the person for the procedure. (I would expect to care lovingly for the person in recovery after the fact, however.) If I were helping to pay someone's rent and cohabitating were proscribed, I could decline to continue to pay even if it meant the person had to leave school or whatever. But I wouldn't reject the couple. Adults are entitled to make legal decisions. They aren't entitled to insist that others fund them.

I'd try to examine the situation in the reverse as well. What if I were doing something my faith required that the other person strongly disagreed with? How would I want to be treated?

Hope you're able to work things out, Scarlett.

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I agree.  But if you are aware a person has strong beliefs  about a subject.....why be angey at them for holding fast?

Well, I would say it may not *necessarily be anger over holding fast, exactly. 

In a situation with my dh, I wasn’t specifically angry with him for having a different POV at the time. I was angry about his refusal to discuss how to handle our different beliefs, so to speak. “My way or the highway” isn’t a relationship.

For me, pain and frustration often looks like anger.  It’s not; it’s pain and frustration.

It could certainly be possible that someone might understand what your beliefs are, and not realize quite how far the reaction would go in practice. For example, I’ve always known my parent believed my kids should be baptized. It never occurred to me that that might result in a fractured relationship. Fortunately, it has not. My point is that I never pondered that possibility. I’ve always assumed my mother would be my constant, no matter what I did or didn’t do.

I don’t think it’s unusual that a young adult might feel rejected for who they are.  I mean, it sounds like grown adult Scarlett is feeling very much that way, so why wouldn’t a child?  And, yes, that might look very much like anger.

I’m in no position to dissect anyone’s theology, to be fair. But most of the people I know (not all) find ways to be loving and connected without forfeiting their religion. Otherwise, my children and I would have far fewer friends!

[Valley Girl]

8 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Well, I would say it may not *necessarily be anger over holding fast, exactly. 

In a situation with my dh, I wasn’t specifically angry with him for having a different POV at the time. I was angry about his refusal to discuss how to handle our different beliefs, so to speak. “My way or the highway” isn’t a relationship.

 

 Exactly. In my case, I was told with a shrug, "That's your problem." There's no way that response doesn't affect a relationship going forward. Mutual respect for different points of view fundamental issues demands more.

[DawnM]

Hugs

 

I don't know where my boundaries would be.  I haven't had a child do something against things I feel strongly about. YET!  This might be an extreme example, but I wouldn't allow a grown child to live in my home while on hard drugs (well, even milder drugs I wouldn't either I guess).   I would try to help them get help, I would take them to rehab, but I wouldn't allow it in my home.   But I would still love them deeply, pray for them, and offer resolutions if they were willing.

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by DawnM

[HomeAgain]

I firmly believe that personal boundaries are rules for how you conduct yourself - not rules you put on others.

I had a mother who was extremely boundary driven and conflated her personal boundaries with my growth as a person.  Guess who I don't talk to?  Ever?  What I needed was love.  What I got was conditional acceptance. 
You, as a person, can choose not to do something because it goes against your moral code.  If you don't believe in living together before marriage or whatever the issue is, then you really shouldn't live with someone before marriage or whatever.  BUT, if you choose not to show love to a human being because they don't meet your moral code, then your code has failed you entirely and completely.  If you blame it on religion, your religion has failed you and turned from the commandments it follows.  Christianity talks quite a bit about love- love your neighbor AS yourself, it comes right after love the lord God with all your heart.  This is it.  Not punish, not set rules upon.  Love.  If you cannot love another as you love yourself, you failed.