.

[Scarlett]

.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Scarlett

[Katy]

Is the situation as serious as abortion or a parenting decision, or is this about something less serious, one example being financial, like selling the house?

[Tanaqui]

That specific situation wouldn't happen to me, because that's one of my deal-breakers for marriage to begin with. But if you could make it work with that dramatic change in opinions in the first place, you might be able to repair the relationship.

Also: Maybe you might want to go with your second best analogy. I'm racking my brains to think of what's up there with abortion that is not abortion, and honestly, all I can think of is "how to hang the toilet paper" and I'm sure that can't be right.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Katy said:

Is the situation as serious as abortion or a parenting decision, or is this about something less serious, one example being financial, like selling the house?

It is less serious.  But my feelings on it are just as strong. It is a moral decision to me.  Not just a personal one.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Tanaqui said:

That specific situation wouldn't happen to me, because that's one of my deal-breakers for marriage to begin with. But if you could make it work with that dramatic change in opinions in the first place, you might be able to repair the relationship.

Also: Maybe you might want to go with your second best analogy. I'm racking my brains to think of what's up there with abortion that is not abortion, and honestly, all I can think of is "how to hang the toilet paper" and I'm sure that can't be right.

Ok....trying to think of another analogy.  Basically me refusing to be involved  in something that is really important to the other party.  And it is a really important ‘thing’.  

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

That specific situation wouldn't happen to me, because that's one of my deal-breakers for marriage to begin with. But if you could make it work with that dramatic change in opinions in the first place, you might be able to repair the relationship.

Also: Maybe you might want to go with your second best analogy. I'm racking my brains to think of what's up there with abortion that is not abortion, and honestly, all I can think of is "how to hang the toilet paper" and I'm sure that can't be right.

Well right....me too.  I would never be married to a person who would ever consider an abortion.....

[Katy]

I can't imagine a situation that I would have moral qualms about and DH would insist I participate regardless of my qualms about it.

He cares too much about the few things I put my foot down about.

[Catwoman]

I don’t want to ask you for more details, so I can’t say for sure, but it seems like you and your dh have a strong marriage, so I think it can survive whatever this is. Is there any way to put a little distance between you while he cools off? Or is this a thing that has long-term implications, so it won’t blow over?

Whatever it is, I’m so sorry you’re going through this.  😪

[moonflower]

I'll give you one: say you are a vegan on moral grounds, and your family wants to do Easter Dinner at your house and have you cook the ham.

For some reason it's like super important for the family to have the ham, it's a huge deal and they're not backing down.  And your house is the only logical place to have it, but you say look, I'd love to host Easter Dinner but we're not doing a ham this year.

[Scarlett]

Well it isn’t my husband,  but another close relationship. 

I don’t feel wrong about my decision.  I mostly feel hurt that this loved one is not more supportive of my decision.

[moonflower]

That wouldn't be a deal breaker necessarily, but it can cause long-lasting discord with the in-laws or with your FOO, ask me how I know.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, moonflower said:

I'll give you one: say you are a vegan on moral grounds, and your family wants to do Easter Dinner at your house and have you cook the ham.

For some reason it's like super important for the family to have the ham, it's a huge deal and they're not backing down.  And your house is the only logical place to have it, but you say look, I'd love to host Easter Dinner but we're not doing a ham this year.

That is pretty close.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, moonflower said:

That wouldn't be a deal breaker necessarily, but it can cause long-lasting discord with the in-laws or with your FOO, ask me how I know.

And I guess my question is.....as a non vegan person....why the heck is anyone mad at you over that?  

[moonflower]

Is it possible that they're feeling judged since you see it as a moral issue and they're obviously on the other side of it?  I know that happens re: food with DH and me and our families of origin.  If we were just saying we were allergic to ham and couldn't cook it or serve it it would be no big deal, and even if we were Jewish or something they'd probably be okay, but somehow the moral injunction makes them super defensive and angry and it just doesn't go well.

[Katy]

I think that either they are feeling judged or they are judging you.  And neither is a situation I would like.  But if it were my adult child or something that would be especially hurtful.

[Scarlett]

Just now, moonflower said:

Is it possible that they're feeling judged since you see it as a moral issue and they're obviously on the other side of it?  I know that happens re: food with DH and me and our families of origin.  If we were just saying we were allergic to ham and couldn't cook it or serve it it would be no big deal, and even if we were Jewish or something they'd probably be okay, but somehow the moral injunction makes them super defensive and angry and it just doesn't go well.

Yes I think they do feel judged and betrayed. No amount of me saying ,’ I have to follow my conscience’ seems to work.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, Katy said:

I think that either they are feeling judged or they are judging you.  And neither is a situation I would like.  But if it were my adult child or something that would be especially hurtful.

I think it might be both.  

[Jaybee]

There are moral lines that I would draw with my adult children that could damage the relationship. However, they know me and my morals, so it wouldn't/shouldn't come as any surprise to them. It isn't that I would want to do anything to damage our relationship because I love my kids with all I am. However, agreeing to certain situations could cause me to compromise myself on a level that I refuse to do. (Boundaries, you know.) I would lose self-respect, and I believe that deep down, they would lose respect for me as well, knowing that I really felt a certain act/situation was wrong. They might be trying to justify something they don't feel comfortable with doing (and want approval for), or they may truly disagree. But I can't let even my loved ones cause me to go against my core beliefs. It would hurt like something awful though.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would see if you could brainstorm with them an option that would make them not feel betrayed but wouldn't betray your own strong beliefs.  So to give an example based on your faith, if someone really strongly wanted  you to celebrate a birthday (which I believe is not part of your faith), then could you come up with a special non-birthday date with them.  In other words, try to meet their emotional need without compromising your beliefs. 

(And before this becomes about birthdays, Scarlett did not say that this was the issue - I just chose an example that I know happens to coincide with her JW beliefs.  )

[moonflower]

If they have any core beliefs that you might not share, or that other people might not share, anywhere in the world even, you might be able to suggest a corrolary to them.

[hjffkj]

Not knowing the circumstances I can't say if a relationship could survive. In the abortion situation, I know if dh and I were on the wrong page it about that it would be an end of marriage issue for me. The vegan example shouldn't be an end of relationship issue but it would certainly change the relationship. If it were something like a child marrying someone the parents disapproved of and parent didn't go to wedding g that would likely be a relationship killer. 

Or a child moving in with a significant other prior to marriage and the parents not approving and then refusing to go to events at that house, likely not a forever relationship ender but as the child I'd be drastically changing my relationship with the parent.

There are just too many scenarios to give an accurate response

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would see if you could brainstorm with them an option that would make them not feel betrayed but wouldn't betray your own strong beliefs.  So to give an example based on your faith, if someone really strongly wanted  you to celebrate a birthday (which I believe is not part of your faith), then could you come up with a special non-birthday date with them.  In other words, try to meet their emotional need without compromising your beliefs. 

(And before this becomes about birthdays, Scarlett did not say that this was the issue - I just chose an example that I know happens to coincide with her JW beliefs.  )

Dang it is hard to be vague when y’all know so much about me. 

 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

Not knowing the circumstances I can't say if a relationship could survive. In the abortion situation, I know if dh and I were on the wrong page it about that it would be an end of marriage issue for me. The vegan example shouldn't be an end of relationship issue but it would certainly change the relationship. If it were something like a child marrying someone the parents disapproved of and parent didn't go to wedding g that would likely be a relationship killer. 

Or a child moving in with a significant other prior to marriage and the parents not approving and then refusing to go to events at that house, likely not a forever relationship ender but as the child I'd be drastically changing my relationship with the parent.

There are just too many scenarios to give an accurate response

Wait. So if your parent was morally opposed to living together outside of marriage....and they refused to attend events in your home.....While you lived with someone outside of marriage.....that would drastically change your relationship with your parent?

[Catwoman]

I’m not quoting you because you asked us not to quote, but I wanted to say I’m glad it’s not a marital problem. You had me scared there for a minute!

[LMD]

You just have to give it time. That's all you can do. You can't fix it, you just have to let the storm clouds of feelings run their course and dissipate, making way for the foundational love to shine through again.

I'm sorry, it's hard.

Also, if it's a younger person, hopefully they'll grow up a bit and one day see your point of view a little clearer?

[moonflower]

Well if it's religious that's usually pretty easy and in fact I often try to explain moral choices to my family in religious terms because people are more accepting ime of religious behavioral prohibitions than moral ones without religion behind them (which really really really irritates me but that's another thread).

Just say look, say your best friend was an Orthodox Jew and you wanted him to attend your wedding at your Christian church.  His religion (depending maybe on sect, as I understand it, but I'm not a Jew so I don't know for sure) says he can't enter other houses of worship.  It's as disappointing for him in this situation as it is for you, but it is what it is.

It's often easier to understand these things when they're depersonalized.

[Scarlett]

Just now, LMD said:

You just have to give it time. That's all you can do. You can't fix it, you just have to let the storm clouds of feelings run their course and dissipate, making way for the foundational love to shine through again.

I'm sorry, it's hard.

Also, if it's a younger person, hopefully they'll grow up a bit and one day see your point of view a little clearer?

Is this the equivalent of letting the other person stew in their own juices?

It does feel like time alone might soften things...I do feel like there was some manipulation going on to get one’s way.......that was never going to work on me..,,but it has been painful.  

[Scarlett]

And part of this is my confusion that this has even been a question......how have you known me these many years and now question this decision. 

[hjffkj]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Wait. So if your parent was morally opposed to living together outside of marriage....and they refused to attend events in your home.....While you lived with someone outside of marriage.....that would drastically change your relationship with your parent?

Yes it would. Because attending an event at my house doesn't condone the decision I made to live with someone else. If it were an event related to my relationship then I would understand not attending. But if it were simply, 'i won't have Sunday dinner with you at your house anymore because I don't agree with your living situation,' then I'd start distancing myself from my parents.

Mind you, I do not believe in living together outside of marriage. But I wouldn't go as far as refusing to go to that couples house because of that belief. But if they came to stay at my house I would not allow them to share a room.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Wait. So if your parent was morally opposed to living together outside of marriage....and they refused to attend events in your home.....While you lived with someone outside of marriage.....that would drastically change your relationship with your parent?

For me, yes.  The relationship is the important thing here.  They know your beliefs.  But they aren't accountable to you for their beliefs - they are to God or to their own sense of self in the case of someone who doesn't believe in God.  I only see the parents as being responsible for enforcing beliefs corporately as a family while children are under-age.  So I can retain my beliefs and still show grace and tolerance (not compromise) in my relationships.  But for me, attending events with someone that doesn't require participation is not equivalent to participating in something I am morally opposed to.  (Now gong to a KKK rally which I would be morally opposed to would be equivalent because my being there at all is a form of participation.) 

[Scarlett]

Just now, hjffkj said:

Yes it would. Because attending an event at my house doesn't condone the decision I made to live with someone else. If it were an event related to my relationship then I would understand not attending. But if it were simply, 'i won't have Sunday dinner with you at your house anymore because I don't agree with your living situation,' then I'd start distancing myself from my parents.

Mind you, I do not believe in living together outside of marriage. But I wouldn't go as far as refusing to go to that couples house because of that belief. But if they came to stay at my house I would not allow them to share a room.

So I am curious why that seems to be your line in the sand.  

[catz]

If you don't attend events in your child's home because of their chosen living situation I would absolutely expect that to have an affect on your relationship.  You are basically choosing to cut them off unless they do things on your terms.  

They can know how you feel and your beliefs.  But if your beliefs become more important than the love and the relationship, that doesn't tend to go very well.  

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

For me, yes.  The relationship is the important thing here.  They know your beliefs.  But they aren't accountable to you for their beliefs - they are to God or to their own sense of self in the case of someone who doesn't believe in God.  I only see the parents as being responsible for enforcing beliefs corporately as a family while children are under-age.  So I can retain my beliefs and still show grace and tolerance (not compromise) in my relationships.  But for me, attending events with someone that doesn't require participation is not equivalent to participating in something I am morally opposed to.  (Now gong to a KKK rally which I would be morally opposed to would be equivalent because my being there at all is a form of participation.) 

But what if your parent felt their attendance was equivalent to participating in something they were morally opposed to..

[Catwoman]

Just now, hjffkj said:

Yes it would. Because attending an event at my house doesn't condone the decision I made to live with someone else. If it were an event related to my relationship then I would understand not attending. But if it were simply, 'i won't have Sunday dinner with you at your house anymore because I don't agree with your living situation,' then I'd start distancing myself from my parents.

Mind you, I do not believe in living together outside of marriage. But I wouldn't go as far as refusing to go to that couples house because of that belief. But if they came to stay at my house I would not allow them to share a room.

 

But what if the kid has known all his life that his mother strongly objects to that kind of living arrangement, and knows that she won’t visit the homes of unmarried couples who live together? Does he still have the right to be angry with her and distance himself from his relationship with her when he knows she’s following her own moral code and not doing what she’s doing out of meanness or spite?

Obviously, this is all theoretical because we’re all on a rabbit trail here, and I wouldn’t have the same reaction because I don’t have strong feelings against living together before marriage, but I’m trying to figure out if the kid would really have grounds to be angry with his mom, having known her feelings on the issue for many years. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, FuzzyCatz said:

If you don't attend events in your child's home because of their chosen living situation I would absolutely expect that to have an affect on your relationship.  You are basically choosing to cut them off unless they do things on your terms.  

They can know how you feel and your beliefs.  But if your beliefs become more important than the love and the relationship, that doesn't tend to go very well.  

Doesn’t everyone have beliefs that are more important than a relationship?

[LMD]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Is this the equivalent of letting the other person stew in their own juices?

It does feel like time alone might soften things...I do feel like there was some manipulation going on to get one’s way.......that was never going to work on me..,,but it has been painful.  

It's just accepting what you do have control over and what you don't. I wouldn't exactly say stewing in their juices, I don't want them to suffer and letting it just be isn't a punishment or manipulation.

You say, "I know x decision upsets you and I am very sorry to have hurt you. I hope you know that I don't make this decision lightly or maliciously, but because I have to do what I believe is right."

I wouldn't engage after that. Even if they continue to vent, just let them get those clouds moving. You've said your piece, your clouds are clear. Just wait for the blue sky.

[hippiemamato3]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Doesn’t everyone have beliefs that are more important than a relationship?

I think so, but hopefully most of them have been discussed before marriage. If things come up later though, there are still deal breakers. The poster above who said she'd even work through a KKK situation - there's no way I could handle anything like that. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

It's just accepting what you do have control over and what you don't. I wouldn't exactly say stewing in their juices, I don't want them to suffer and letting it just be isn't a punishment or manipulation.

You say, "I know x decision upsets you and I am very sorry to have hurt you. I hope you know that I don't make this decision lightly or maliciously, but because I have to do what I believe is right."

I wouldn't engage after that. Even if they continue to vent, just let them get those clouds moving. You've said your piece, your clouds are clear. Just wait for the blue sky.

Thank you.  That is helpful.  And it is what I have basically said.,

[Scarlett]

Just now, hippiemamato3 said:

I think so, but hopefully most of them have been discussed before marriage. If things come up later though, there are still deal breakers. The poster above who said she'd even work through a KKK situation - there's no way I could handle anything like that. 

Right.  This is not a marriage issue.  

[Katy]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Doesn’t everyone have beliefs that are more important than a relationship?

 

No.  I cannot think of a belief I have that is more important than the relationship with my children.

Including going to dinner at a place I disagree with, or going to a wedding I disagree with, or possibly even going to an event at a church I disagree with.  The child matters more.

ETA: Of course my faith is more important, BUT I can't think of a non-personal belief that matters more than my children.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Katy

[hippiemamato3]

Just now, Katy said:

 

No.  I cannot think of a belief I have that is more important than the relationship with my children.

Including going to dinner at a place I disagree with, or going to a wedding I disagree with, or possibly even going to an event at a church I disagree with.  The child matters more.

Agreed.

[hjffkj]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So I am curious why that seems to be your line in the sand.  

why what is my line in that sand? that I would theoretically  have a problem with my parents not coming to my house if they disagreed with my living situation?  If that is the case then because them actively avoiding my house  passes the line where they are living their beliefs into judgement on me.  And only God should be judging me. So, if my parents are going to judge me on one live decision they don't agree with than I am not going to open myself up for more judgement by allowing them into my life so closely. 

[maize]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Wait. So if your parent was morally opposed to living together outside of marriage....and they refused to attend events in your home.....While you lived with someone outside of marriage.....that would drastically change your relationship with your parent?

It probably would for most child/parent pairs.

A young adult would likely feel that the parent is being judgmental and not prioritising the relationship.

While that may not be how the parent perceives the situation, it is the parent's role as the more mature person in the relationship to try first to understand the child's point of view and not necessarily expect to that point of view to change. 

It might come down to deciding how the moral implications of maintaining or not maintaining a strong relationship with the child measure up against the moral implications of setting aside other moral qualms. There isn't going to be a perfect black or white solution, only shades of gray either direction.

Edited September 14, 2019 by maize

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

No.  I cannot think of a belief I have that is more important than the relationship with my children.

Including going to dinner at a place I disagree with, or going to a wedding I disagree with, or possibly even going to an event at a church I disagree with.  The child matters more.

ETA: Of course my faith is more important, BUT I can't think of a non-personal belief that matters more than my children.

But..,,,what if it is faith issue.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, hippiemamato3 said:

I think so, but hopefully most of them have been discussed before marriage. If things come up later though, there are still deal breakers. The poster above who said she'd even work through a KKK situation - there's no way I could handle anything like that. 

Well, I've been thinking over my own example and am having trouble figuring out how I could handle it!  In that case, I would have a very hard time because it isn't about joining the KKK itself or about the rally itself - it's that their own beliefs would be so contrary and repugnant to mine, and I feel are beliefs that hurt other people deeply.  So it isn't a "you do you and I will do me" sort of situation.  But I also can't imagine raising kids who would go "there" (not withstanding the fact that my kids are not white. . . ). 

[hippiemamato3]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

But..,,,what if it is faith issue.  

My children would come first. Why? Because my faith, my beliefs may not be the same as my children's. But they are my loves and I would still support and love them. That bond can never be severed. Life is too short and we are not guaranteed tomorrow. There is no line in the sand.

[catz]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Doesn’t everyone have beliefs that are more important than a relationship?

 

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

No.  I cannot think of a belief I have that is more important than the relationship with my children.

Including going to dinner at a place I disagree with, or going to a wedding I disagree with, or possibly even going to an event at a church I disagree with.  The child matters more.

 This.  My relationship with my family is always more important.  There are situations I could imagine where relationships could break down.  But it would need to be much more serious and dire than a difference of opinion like this.   I understand it's faith based for you.  Is there literally written documentation that you can never cross this line under any circumstance in your faith?  Or is it really a choice and a line in the sand you've drawn on your own?  

[hjffkj]

19 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

But what if the kid has known all his life that his mother strongly objects to that kind of living arrangement, and knows that she won’t visit the homes of unmarried couples who live together? Does he still have the right to be angry with her and distance himself from his relationship with her when he knows she’s following her own moral code and not doing what she’s doing out of meanness or spite?

Obviously, this is all theoretical because we’re all on a rabbit trail here, and I wouldn’t have the same reaction because I don’t have strong feelings against living together before marriage, but I’m trying to figure out if the kid would really have grounds to be angry with his mom, having known her feelings on the issue for many years. 

 

of course he has the right because those feelings are his to have.  And really he isn't the one distancing himself from the relationship, she is because of her beliefs.  She is saying, 'this is my belief, it always has been, and I will only have a relationship with you when it is in agreement with my beliefs.'  She put the relationship in a strain first and any fall out from that is on her, IMHO.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 

 This.  My relationship with my family is always more important.  There are situations I could imagine where relationships could break down.  But it would need to be much more serious and dire than a difference of opinion like this.   I understand it's faith based for you.  Is there literally written documentation that you can never cross this line under any circumstance in your faith?  Or is it really a choice and a line in the sand you've drawn on your own?  

Your relationship with your family is more important than your relationship with God?

And everyone can decide .

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But..,,,what if it is faith issue.  

 

I'm sorry, I'd need specifics.  And I'm not sure I'm the person to ask about this question because I go to a church that is INCREDIBLY and (arguably too much) open when it comes to interpreting these things. I know a while back you were concerned about going or not going to a wedding you disagreed with.  And I think you said that couple did get married, but this seems like a similar thing in terms of morality of going or not going = participation.  So going with that example, if it were that important to DS that I go to the wedding of his friend/non-official ex-girlfriend and I really thought the marriage was a bad idea I'd go anyway.  Even if I could see the guy would be worthless and she'd end up a single mom in less than a few years.   Because I'd want to support her even through her terrible choice.