Joshua Harris leaves Christianity?

[freesia]

7 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Lemme get this straight . . . A church tells a gay kid that he can't be alone with girls and encourages him to only make male friends.  The kid is all "I'll do ya one better and write a BOOK about how I virtuously abstained from dating females." The book makes him famous.  He's famous again today for coming out, but this is AFTER he married some girl he probably never kissed before the wedding? 

I wonder what goes through those kids' minds if that first kiss has zero chemistry. 

Wait?  Is this your interpretation?

[KungFuPanda]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

Wait?  Is this your interpretation?

It is my take from my copious research of hearing the book title on this board AND reading page one of this thread.  Feel free to file it under opinions that have all the journalistic integrity of a buzzfeed article.  

[Katy]

15 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Lemme get this straight . . . A church tells a gay kid that he can't be alone with girls and encourages him to only make male friends.  The kid is all "I'll do ya one better and write a BOOK about how I virtuously abstained from dating females." The book makes him famous.  He's famous again today for coming out, but this is AFTER he married some girl he probably never kissed before the wedding? 

I wonder what goes through those kids' minds if that first kiss has zero chemistry. 

 

While I admit I've been wondering about the same thing, apologizing to the community and coming out aren't the same.  Do you have a link that he did come out?

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

 

I believe this too, but I'm just nondenominational, not LDS. 

We're technically Methodists, but the whole situation of an impending church split over homosexuality bothers both DH & I so we're in no real rush to find a new congregation after our move.

Fascinating. Do other Christian denominations teach this or is it just something you personally believe? I was a practicing Catholic for the first half of my life and then attended a Methodist church for many years, but never heard anything like this until Maize’s post. And that’s despite reading lots of books about Mormonism and having many Mormon friends when we lived in CO.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea that anyone would purposefully choose mortality. I always find these conversations so interesting and enlightening. Thanks for sharing.

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

Fascinating. Do other Christian denominations teach this or is it just something you personally believe? I was a practicing Catholic for the first half of my life and then attended a Methodist church for many years, but never heard anything like this until Maize’s post. And that’s despite reading lots of books about Mormonism and having many Mormon friends when we lived in CO.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea that anyone would purposefully choose mortality. I always find these conversations so interesting and enlightening. Thanks for sharing.

 

Well this isn't something that I've heard taught explicitly from the pulpit. I want to be very careful here because it isn't in scripture and if it exists as a theological point in Christian tradition outside of mysticism I'm not aware of it.  There are some verses about God knowing us before we were formed, or that we were chosen before the earth was formed.  Here are some of them: https://www.openbible.info/topics/god_knew_us_before_we_were_born  On the other hand one could easily say that's only because the Omniscience of God, not that we existed in a spiritual realm before we existed in the physical realm.

I have heard that there has long been a theory that before Genesis, when Satan fell from heaven he took a third of heaven with him.  Angels who became demons and human spirits too. But I've never looked into this enough to even know how prevalent that belief is or what the term is to describe it, if there is one.

In my case I, I was praying about the meaning of life and had a dream that showed me that, and then I quietly talked about it with a couple small groups I had, some of which had pastors and much more mature Christians than me in them.  I never spoke to anyone who outright disagreed with me, they all agreed it could be but it was outside of scripture so they couldn't be sure. I spoke with many people who said they believed the same thing, but again, it wasn't in scripture so we couldn't say for sure.

I think this is kind of like the people who can't shake the feeling that Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, was gay.  That his sexuality was his the reason for much of his tone and self-hatred. I remember thinking that the first time I read through the New Testament as a teen.  It wasn't until I was an adult and the internet became as big as it is that I realized this is one of those things that has been quietly whispered about for centuries, and now that the internet is what it is has become a more open discussion. The truth is we'll never know for sure, at least not in this life. All I know for sure is that I'm not the only person who thinks this way.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

It is my take from my copious research of hearing the book title on this board AND reading page one of this thread.  Feel free to file it under opinions that have all the journalistic integrity of a buzzfeed article.  

Ummm...hmm. Really? You think he’s gay? Are you saying that because he apologized for being obtuse about SSM? Or because he has stated he’s gay, because I never saw that. 

[PrincessMommy]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

Ummm...hmm. Really? You think he’s gay? Are you saying that because he apologized for being obtuse about SSM? Or because he has stated he’s gay, because I never saw that. 

Actually, I speculated to my dh the same thing as KungFu..  It would not surprise me if this was the next installment of the saga.  The skeptic in me thinks he's got to draw it out for click-bait.  Didn't he say something about being mentored by a certain guru who has perfected the art of "telling our story" online?  I think it was in one of the links.  

[KungFuPanda]

17 minutes ago, Quill said:

Ummm...hmm. Really? You think he’s gay? Are you saying that because he apologized for being obtuse about SSM? Or because he has stated he’s gay, because I never saw that. 

I do believe I got the wrong idea from skimming page one.  I thought people where saying that was why he left.

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I do believe I got the wrong idea from skimming page one.  I thought people where saying that was why he left.

 

Well you're not the only one wondering if that's coming next.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

Lemme get this straight . . . A church tells a gay kid that he can't be alone with girls and encourages him to only make male friends.  The kid is all "I'll do ya one better and write a BOOK about how I virtuously abstained from dating females." The book makes him famous.  He's famous again today for coming out, but this is AFTER he married some girl he probably never kissed before the wedding? 

I wonder what goes through those kids' minds if that first kiss has zero chemistry. 

I know zero about Harris or his book other than what I've read here, but I certainly wondered if either he or one (or more) of his kids is gay/bisexual, etc. I mean it kinda seems like an obvious thing to consider, doesn't it?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Actually, I speculated to my dh the same thing as KungFu..  It would not surprise me if this was the next installment of the saga.  The skeptic in me thinks he's got to draw it out for click-bait.  Didn't he say something about being mentored by a certain guru who has perfected the art of "telling our story" online?  I think it was in one of the links.  

Well, I guess time will tell. I tend not to think someone is gay unless there’s more reasons to think so than what I’m seeing so far, but, meh, anything is possible. People can have an epiphany about how it’s right for LGBTQ people to be treated with equal rights to hetero people without themselves being gay, though. 

[EmseB]

Dp

Edited August 1, 2019 by EmseB

[EmseB]

For me, the problem of suffering is "solved" for lack of a better word by the idea of eternal life, and an all-knowing Creator...a just and good God (which I think must be true in terms of first causes/philosophical definitions that are a more academic discussion).

If my life here is a blip on the eternity scale of time, if I have an eternal soul, if my kids have eternal souls, and if my Creator has that eternity in His hand, and my suffering or evn that of little children is meaningful in the face of that eternity, and good and evil receieve justice in that eternity, then I can deal with it. I cannot handle random, meaningless (however you want to phrase it, I'm probably using poor word choice) suffering or assign meaning to a purely materialistic life/universe. Summed up as: I would not be able to deal with particular tragedies in my life or things I observe happening in the world without an idea of justice being served and meted out at some point.

This is not the only reason I believe in what I believe in, just one facet of my beliefs on suffering, relating to what other people in the thread have said and based on what I believe what must be true of a Creator. I don't mean to trivialize or dismiss another view or experience, just sharing mine.

[PrincessMommy]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, I guess time will tell. I tend not to think someone is gay unless there’s more reasons to think so than what I’m seeing so far, but, meh, anything is possible. People can have an epiphany about how it’s right for LGBTQ people to be treated with equal rights to hetero people without themselves being gay, though. 

oh I agree.  But, this particular case did have me wondering.  

[Bluegoat]

15 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

 

I don't know that I would have an expectation of knowing now, but I did then.  Free will arguments never made much sense to me either; it was pretty clear to me that people never operate from pure free will, and are always constrained in ways specific to their context. 

Perhaps Buddhism was more explicit about  suffering being inherent in the nature of being, and also provided practical and immediate ways to alleviate one's own suffering and that of others. 

Perhaps if I had met a Christian at that time who took my question seriously and had the theological skill to answer, I might not have needed Buddhism. 

It's not a matter, though, of claiming that Buddhism was better than Christianity, only that it more effectively reframed my question into one that caused less emotional and cognitive distress. Ultimately, I think I would always have ended up areligious, due to the aforementioned lack of response to 'Godness'.

I do sometimes think of a  universal God who is represented by a sort of mathematics, but that is just an abstraction, there is no sense of personal relationship with that God.

 

 

Yes, I am never sure why people want to say our free will is unconstrained now, that seems pretty clearly untrue on the face of it and I would say that is also what Christian theology says.  But different frames from questions are often helpful and sometimes less familiar ones can really work better to do that because you bring fewer assumptions with you.

. Plato, and Pythagorus, also said God was mathematical so you are in good company.  

[Bluegoat]

Quote

 can't accept that there is any wisdom at all in some scenarios of suffering. My mind used to get stuck on that story of the baby who was used as a football, and there was just no way I could conceive of there being any great wisdom in allowing it to happen.  Maybe my brain is just limited in some ways, but it's the brain I've got, kwim ?

 

It's interesting that you use that phrase, and some others seem to think in those terms as well.

I've never really thought about suffering, generally, as having some wisdom attached to it.  Sometimes that seems true in a particular instance, but that's not language I'd have thought to use.   It seems like that implies its the best scenario, which I don't think is quite what I would want to say.  

[maize]

11 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

If God is like the rest of us, how can s/he be God ?

I certainly believe God is active in the lives of people whether they are believers or not.

And that when we go around judging each other we usually get it all wrong.

God being like us...well, how much like I don't know but this is our world not just his so I figure he (and she, but I'll stick with the singular father God for now since our mother is even more of a mystery) works with what we are at the moment, which is only partly god-like but maybe moving in that direction.

And there you have not so much doctrine but a dose of theological speculations by maize.

[TechWife]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, I guess time will tell. I tend not to think someone is gay unless there’s more reasons to think so than what I’m seeing so far, but, meh, anything is possible. People can have an epiphany about how it’s right for LGBTQ people to be treated with equal rights to hetero people without themselves being gay, though. 

 

I agree. I haven't seen anything to indicate that he's gay.

[Rosie_0801]

42 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

If God is like the rest of us, how can s/he be God ?

 

If we're made in God's image, what else could God be?

[unsinkable]

what's that book where the guy goes back in time, to a little bit before the time of the crucifixtion, and he is delirious and mumbling all this NT stuff about Jesus. Then people think he is Jesus and then eventually he is crucified? I think he walks out of the desert?

[maize]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

 

God is not very nice overall, despite a few redeeming features, if humanity is a reflection of what Godness is.

I was brought up to believe that God was Divine Love, Power and Mercy; we are most definitely not made, as a species, in that image! 

Maybe we're trying to grow towards it.

My two year old is not, in his behaviors, very much like me at this point...and I figure God is a lot more than 39 years older than me.

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 

God is not very nice overall, despite a few redeeming features, if humanity is a reflection of what Godness is.

I was brought up to believe that God was Divine Love, Power and Mercy; we are most definitely not made, as a species, in that image! 

 

Well, perhaps the difference is that God is singular, and therefore doesn't get caught up in mob mentalities.

[Rosie_0801]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Well, that's undetermined 🙂

 

Eh? I thought we were talking about the Christian God. There's debate on the Christian God being one, uh, Godishness?

[maize]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I just find this doesn't really answer, for me, Epicurus' trilemma.

1. If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
2. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
3. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?

 

I take issue with #2

I am not a perfect parent of I micromanage my children.

Nor if I wrap them in bubble wrap to prevent them from ever being injured.

Or keep them in a sterile environment where they won't get sick but also won't gain experience.

Good comes in many forms; sometimes good is letting people grow and learn and act for themselves.

[maize]

9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

How did the baby used as a football grow ? This is where I always got stuck. There was no growth for that baby, there was only pain, humiliation, fear and death. 

Which I guess can be 'solved' with a happy ending - poor little Jewish baby gets to heaven sooner and is with God now - but if you are at all unsure on the happy ending, then that baby's life and death makes very little sense. 

I cannot imagine being an all-powerful being, who wants to prevent evil, not using my benevolent all-power to save that baby.

I have no problem accepting that this may be because my human brain, so very limited, simply cannot comprehend or have a hope of comprehending the ultimate good in that child's fate, but you can see my issue, right ?

 

You are right that there is no growth IF the baby does not exist beyond mortality. 

If mortality is all there is, I'm not sure growth matters anyway. We're just a bunch of atoms that happen to be associated with each other for awhile; neither pain nor joy is really significant except in a right this moment sort of way.

I see no place for God at all under that framework.

Edited August 1, 2019 by maize

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, maize said:

I take issue with #2

I am not a perfect parent of I micromanage my children.

Nor if I wrap them in bubble wrap to prevent them from ever being injured.

Or keep them in a sterile environment where they won't get sick but also won't gain experience.

Good comes in many forms; sometimes good is letting people grow and learn and act for themselves.

Sure but if you had the power to prevent a senseless tragedy from befalling your child, you would. 

That’s where it gets squirrely for me. 

Years ago, I knew about a woman on-line (a Christian blogger) whose little child was crushed when a piece of furniture fell on him. Stuff like that just stabs me in the heart.  Even the most attentive parent in the world cannot safeguard their kids from all tragedy. It’s nobody’s fault, so there goes @EmseB‘s solution that judgement will be meted out on the evildoers. 

Indeed, most mainstream Christian prayers ask for things like protection for their children, or healing if they are sick, or at least, forbearance if the child is going through some sort of hard-to-fix struggle. Why ask for those things if God might decide you’re the mom who has to suffer your child getting a bookcase crushing him one night while you are putting another child to bed? 

Senseless tragedy is where it starts to fall apart for me...

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

19 minutes ago, maize said:

If mortality is all there is, I'm not sure growth matters anyway. We're just a bunch of atoms that happen to be associated with each other for awhile; neither pain nor joy is really significant except in a right this moment sort of way.

 

"Right this moment" can last a long time. Think about intergenerational trauma.

[maize]

9 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

"Right this moment" can last a long time. Think about intergenerational trauma.

Fair enough, and I'm on board with "let's do what we can to limit the pain of life for all the people" even if we are just a bunch of atoms cause evidently bunches of atoms are capable of experiencing discomfort themselves when aware of discomfort in other bunches of atoms.

I just don't see any grand metaphysical good and evil or real meaning in anything under those conditions. 

And I need meaning, which is probably why I find myself incapable of believing in a godless and purely mortal reality.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

If God is like the rest of us, how can s/he be God ?

 

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

If we're made in God's image, what else could God be?

Exactly. One of the bedrocks of my faith is that we are all made in the image of God. And that we all have innate worth as such. 

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

 

God is not very nice overall, despite a few redeeming features, if humanity is a reflection of what Godness is.

I was brought up to believe that God was Divine Love, Power and Mercy; we are most definitely not made, as a species, in that image! 

That's why Christianity is HARD. Trying to see everyone as made in the image of God, with innate dignity and worth, is HARD when you are talking about people who do terrible things. Hard, but what we are called to do. Loving thy neighbor is hard. Respecting the dignity of human life is hard. It's all hard. It's not the giving up chocolate that lent that I struggle with, or whatever. It's praying for my enemies, and loving them. That's the tough part of Christianity. 

[Pam in CT]

11 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

An atheist of my acquaintance was called "an angel sent by God" recently. If this is so, God must prioritise some details over others, just like the rest of us do.

I'm only ~95% certain of my (not terribly theistic) conception of the divine.  But I'm 100% certain that there are angels who walk the earth.

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, maize said:

Fair enough, and I'm on board with "let's do what we can to limit the pain of life for all the people" even if we are just a bunch of atoms cause evidently bunches of atoms are capable of experiencing discomfort themselves when aware of discomfort in other bunches of atoms.

I just don't see any grand metaphysical good and evil or real meaning in anything under those conditions. 

And I need meaning, which is probably why I find myself incapable of believing in a godless and purely mortal reality.

 

I think people are meaningful.
But I think stories are meaningful too, so whatever gets people through in a reasonably healthy way is fine by me.

[Pam in CT]

re if this time here is all we have, what's the point?

3 minutes ago, maize said:

Fair enough, and I'm on board with "let's do what we can to limit the pain of life for all the people" even if we are just a bunch of atoms cause evidently bunches of atoms are capable of experiencing discomfort themselves when aware of discomfort in other bunches of atoms.

I just don't see any grand metaphysical good and evil or real meaning in anything under those conditions. 

And I need meaning, which is probably why I find myself incapable of believing in a godless and purely mortal reality.

 

When I knew my father had only a short time left with us, that didn't make the remaining time pointless.  It made the remaining time unimaginably precious.

I need meaning too.  Doing all I can to leave my small little corner of this earth a tiny bit better for the riders in the eternal cold who come after me: well, if that is all there is, that is enough.

[Katy]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I can honestly say it never occured to me - I must be very naive - I thought his change in position came from a growing empathy for others combined with growing doubts about his denomination, not from self-interest!  Who knows, really?! Guess all will become clear. 

 

I think it's possible, but he would be an exceedingly rare person if he came to reject all his childhood indoctrination solely out of philosophy, or because someone he ministered to called him out on his BS.

It's much more likely either he realized he is gay or someone he deeply loves came out to him.  His wife perhaps.  If it's not him, but someone he loves, he may (correctly) feel that it's not his story to share, and he doesn't want to open everyone he loves up to the pain of speculation so he's keeping his mouth shut. 

From a completely shallow level, some of his fashion choices in the past have made me raise an eyebrow.  The tipped fedora on the cover of that book, for example.  Quirky home school kid?  Maybe.  Something else going on?  He wouldn't be the first or the last person raised in that sort of culture to never admit even to himself what is going on. It also wouldn't be that surprising that a man who didn't want to touch a woman at all before marriage and thought he just needed to pray to bring the woman God intended for him to him would solve all his problems.

 

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

How did the baby used as a football grow ? This is where I always got stuck. There was no growth for that baby, there was only pain, humiliation, fear and death. 

Which I guess can be 'solved' with a happy ending - poor little Jewish baby gets to heaven sooner and is with God now - but if you are at all unsure on the happy ending, then that baby's life and death makes very little sense. 

I cannot imagine being an all-powerful being, who wants to prevent evil, not using my benevolent all-power to save that baby.

I have no problem accepting that this may be because my human brain, so very limited, simply cannot comprehend or have a hope of comprehending the ultimate good in that child's fate, but you can see my issue, right ?

 

 

IMO you have to believe in eternity and in free will to be okay with it.  Not the idea that God is causing the evil to happen, but that he's allowing it to happen because of free will.

The only way a good God doesn't interfere is if in the span of eternity that is but a blip, and if that baby's purpose was something else. 

What's really terrible is that's not an isolated incident from 70 years ago.  People abuse and beat children, even infants, every day. I've taken care of babies that were repeatedly shaken until they stopped breathing.

 

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

What would you say ? Am interested. To me, the idea that suffering is part of a greater plan seems to imply there is unseen wisdom behind the plan- otherwise why accept it, plan or not ?

 

I think that seems more linear than how I would put it.  I don't really think of God as having a plan that he sort of thought out and then executed and things go along according to the blueprint, and maybe at some point he could have just tweaked the design a little to make it better.

I suppose I would say that it's logically or inevitably attached to certain other things.  So maybe, if we are creatures that know and are self-aware, suffering is always a possibility, and under some circumstances an inevitability.  Or that for love to be a possibility, suffering has to be attached to that - but in Christian theology God is love, love is like a sort of metaphysical gravity, so again suffering is always a possibility.  It's also perhaps related to our physicality, you cannot have physicality that is separated from the source of being without death, and you can't have death without suffering.  So that is related to the Fall, again, and self consciousness.  

So if you want to eliminate suffering, from this perspective, you need to eliminate the body, and love, and self-aware beings. Which actually reminds me a lot of the end point of certain atheistic worldviews and I find those just completely abhorrent and certainly not an improvement in terms of compassion.  

There is a disagreement among theologians around whether the Fall, and suffering, were inevitable.  Some would say no, if there had been no Fall, we'd be in perfect union with God and no suffering, so then the fateful human choice caused suffering.  Others think it was inevitable, if you had creatures like humans (or angels) there had to be a Fall, and also the Fall in some sense was what allowed for the Incarnation and a more complete and self-aware kind of union with God.  So there is a certain amount of literature, and particularly mystical literature, around this idea of union through suffering, and also quite a lot of ver interesting stuff about the interconnectedness of our suffering and the suffering of others and the world, and things like the possibility of bearing others suffering.

 

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

Oh, no, I mean whatever thing is Godness, that the Christians and others view as singular, but others view as multiple. Whatever the Godness is behind the God/gods.

 

Do any philosophic religions think that?  I guess gnosticism but it's pretty widely pointed out that it's a logical contradiction to have two first principles.

Usually when religions talk about gods its a poetic approach.

[Katy]

5 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I have a kid with a genetic mutation that is causing enormous suffering.  How does that fit into your idea that free will is what causes suffering?

 

I'm sorry to hear that.  I think a theologian would say that it wasn't about anyone's free will, it's a result of living in a fallen world.  Inherited original sin from Adam & Eve.  My personal theory is that the reason for this isn't because of anyone's sin.  I think your child chose this condition before conception, probably partially to give the people in their life an opportunity to practice unconditional love and compassion.  Without people who need compassion we cannot learn compassion.

[MercyA]

Re: the problem of suffering. As a Christian, I believe God has allowed Satan a measure of power in this world. Jesus called Satan the "prince of this world." Paul called him the "prince of the power of the air" and the "god of this world."

In Scripture Satan is also called the enemy of God, a murderer, a liar, a deceiver, a tempter, an accuser, and a thief. He is able to cause illness and other suffering. Even the angels of God can be limited by him at times. He held "the power of death" but Jesus overcame him: "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself [Jesus] likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery."

If I believed that God was the only one with any supernatural authority in this world, I too would be confounded by the problem of suffering. I accept that there are forces of evil at work here on this earth, not just forces of good. Of course one might ask why God would give any authority to Satan in the first place. I don't know--others have speculated. It is enough for me to know that God has given it, for now, and that there are tools that I can use to overcome that evil. 

I've told the story here before about how we had some very unwelcome visitors in one of our previous homes. That experience was very faith-building for me. It confirmed not only the existence of demons but the power of Jesus to overcome them.

ETA: It should go without saying, but in case it doesn't--I absolutely do not believe Satan causes all illness. I believe some occurs because we live in a fallen world; some because of choices people make (for example, FAS); and some (a small amount?) because of Satan's direct involvement. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by MercyA

[scholastica]

11 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

I'm sorry to hear that.  I think a theologian would say that it wasn't about anyone's free will, it's a result of living in a fallen world.  Inherited original sin from Adam & Eve.  My personal theory is that the reason for this isn't because of anyone's sin.  I think your child chose this condition before conception, probably partially to give the people in their life an opportunity to practice unconditional love and compassion.  Without people who need compassion we cannot learn compassion.

Does your denomination believe souls exist and are conscious and rational before conception? 

[TravelingChris]

On 7/31/2019 at 8:58 AM, Skippy said:

This article explores an angle that I have not seen in any of the other articles I have read on this subject.

https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=30549

This explores the role that Calvinism may have played in his fall. I have seen this as an issue in several other organizations tied to many homeschoolers. In some circles, such as Vision Forum, it seemed like Calvin was the foundation of their organization, and he was revered and elevated above Christ. A foundation built on anyone other than Christ and His doctrine will crumble.

"So then you... are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone." Ephesians 2:19-20

The foolish man built his house on a foundation other than the pure, simple gospel of Christ. "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall." Matthew 7:24-27

I am a Calvinist and that article does not describe my  faith at all ---- not in the least little bit.   I do not worship Calvin.  I do think that God is in control in the whole part  but that is super different from saying God wanted Hitler to do evil.  Also, Calvinism does not describe how many are saved and how many are not.  So it isn't like only my little group and I are saved and Methodists and Baptists go to hell (and replace that with any other group).  God is in charge, not Man.  Thereby God decides, not us.    I have zero idea about what type of church he was two of the Presbyterian denominations we attended (PCA and PCUSA) both require education in order to be a pastor or associate pastor.  That article said he hadn't had a college education, let alone gone to seminary.  

[ktgrok]

29 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I accept that there are forces of evil at work here on this earth, not just forces of good.

I do believe this. What form that takes, I don't know, but I believe it. 

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

I'm sorry to hear that.  I think a theologian would say that it wasn't about anyone's free will, it's a result of living in a fallen world.  Inherited original sin from Adam & Eve.  My personal theory is that the reason for this isn't because of anyone's sin.  I think your child chose this condition before conception, probably partially to give the people in their life an opportunity to practice unconditional love and compassion.  Without people who need compassion we cannot learn compassion.

Well that sucks. 

ETA: I’m really hating that explanation, because that means my baby girl chose to be born to me, the woman who would have a placental abruption, which would end her life outside the uterus before it began, just so my head could be effed up for years and years and the faith I did have would hit the skids. Bad decision, baby girl. I really could have done without. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by Quill

[livetoread]

Yes, the problem of evil was the biggest reason I decided a loving deity probably doesn’t exist. I spent years wrestling with the implications, explored the theodicy of many a thinker, argued countless hours online, and ultimately gave up from mental exhaustion.

I struggled with human suffering, but what helped push things over the top was animal suffering. If a creator exists, this creator specifically chose a process that involved millions of years of animal suffering before humans ever showed up to give any sort of (questionable) meaning to that suffering. This creator is capable of creating a space that is free of suffering and that somehow deals with that pesky free will concept (assuming one also believes in heaven), but chose not to in this case. Suffering and death is a feature, not a bug. I find it easier to think there is no loving deity than to try and mash that reality into the existence of a loving deity, even a non-Christian, vaguely defined, deity. 

Editing to add, the second biggest reason was the hiddenness of God. Lots of implications there, including ties to the problem of evil, but the surprising part was how silent this deity was as I was struggling to hold onto my faith. Again, evidence suggests no loving deity rather than one who wants everyone to believe in it. Maybe only some people 😉 (since we’re talking about Reformed theology).

Edited August 2, 2019 by livetoread

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

Epigenetics, even.

Somebody did some study on lupus patients and a higher percentage of their mothers had been raped or sexually assaulted.  I have lupus and my epigenetics is that both my parents ended up in Soviet gulags during the first part of WWII and after the war, were refugees.

[LarlaB]

I am 11 weeks post concussion and unable to drive, cross a street on my own (safely) or read more than a few sentences before starting over because of an inability to concentrate.  So its incredibly hard for me to express myself well.  That's my caveat.  But I must try.   

I am Christian, a rare female graduate of seminary and someone who has suffered pain in life.   Childhood abuse, depression and suicide attempts, miscarriages in wanted/planned pregnancies, massive job loss that nearly bankrupted us, random injuries and significant illness that completely altered life- and also a former pastors wife (10 years in ministry).    I share that to demonstrate that I have experienced enough significant pain and unfairness in life, to earn a voice in the conversation of $hit happens.  

The rejection of the Christian God always seem boil down to the fact that evil=pain=suffering co-exists with God.   A lot of people think that if God exists and is fully "love" and that love must somehow nullify evil,  and so therefore we should be exempt from the markings of evil if we believe in love.  A lot of people believe that LOVE is goodness, happiness and can fully change the earth into a perfect, utopia, pain free existence.   A lot of people need to feel that God is rational or fair in their human estimation.  

I believe that no matter how GOOD or SELFLESS or TOLERANT or POSITIVE we are, evil exists and we cannot fully eliminate or eradicate it.  I believe, as MLK said, light is the only thing that drives out darkness (aka, darkness exists).  Furthermore,  I believe that evil exists and that evil's distinct function and intent is to disrupt, damage and destroy the world.  I believe that there is an unseen tension or battle that fights for the hearts and minds and behaviors of humankind.  I believe that evil is like a computer virus that mutates, distorts, adapts and corrupts the human experience on earth with the specific intent to separate us from a connection with God.  

How could a "good God allow XYZ" is where most people jump ship.  And its 100% understandable and frankly is exactly what we should be asking.  That wrestling has cut me to my core to observe that a loving God would allow such brokenness and evil to exist- and intersect with my life in such horrible ways. 

We shouldn't be able to easily reconcile evil coexisting with God and still easily accept/believe in God.   But to me, that is the core of religious faith.  To believe that  saved/rescued/redeemed from something indicates that there is something other than pure goodness and roses and utopia that must exist- that redemption is the core of all major religions, no matter than expression.  Its seeing the brokenness and fallibility of the human condition and looking beyond it to see something greater and more perfect, even if not understood.   And that redemption is, at core a complex process of choice and faith in the unseen or not fully understood.   God wants us to choose God.   Choose.   Despite the pain, the regime of evil, the demise of humanity- to look more broadly and see the cosmic battle and choose to try and stand on the side of love...the love that we cannot reasonably understand.  To say  "God gives and takes away- nevertheless, blessed be His Name".    Why is this important?  I think its because it acknowledges that my PAIN and my experience is not the center of existence in this world.  I am not the center.  My experience and understanding does not define what is true. God is the center.  God does not exist for my sake, I exist for Gods sake.   

Evil?  Evil very simply wants us to deny and doubt existence of God-  and to not just question or test (Adam and Eve 101), but to reject.  It is a profound tension we live in.

I have never consciously believed God to be an entity who acts as Santa Clause- giving us what we want, and only being goodness and happiness and positive thoughts.   Yet, my first response in the middle of profound pain is ALWAYS: Why.did.this.happen.to.me?   When I'm bleeding and realize I'm losing my baby- it is my very first thought even as I pray and beg for God to intervene and change what is happening. And God seems silent.  

I have come to believe God has allowed evil to influence and alter this world- genetic mutation, pathology, murder, cruelty, domination,  I don't think pain is God's problem,  nor does evil change who God is.  I think pain is a product of evil and brokenness. But again, that's a complex conclusion. 

It 100% sucks to live in a imperfect, fallen and broken world. 100%.  There is no clear upside to enduring pain, loss and grief.   It rips at us-at the very fabric of our existence. Tries to weaken us from the desire to carry on- much less continue to believe.  And yet.....yet, pain is 100% a part of our existence and experience as living beings- though we try to escape, suppress, control and deny it.   

One of my favorite books is CS Lewis "the Problem of Pain" wherein he addresses this nagging issue of (essentially) $hit happening.  It has helped me cope thru some of my really dark moments.  No easy answers, rather more dealing with the struggle.  That is what has changed it for me. Seeing the struggle and accepting no easy answers or relief from the tension. 
 

[katilac]

 

8 hours ago, EmseB said:

For me, the problem of suffering is "solved" for lack of a better word by the idea of eternal life, and an all-knowing Creator...a just and good God (which I think must be true in terms of first causes/philosophical definitions that are a more academic discussion).

If my life here is a blip on the eternity scale of time, if I have an eternal soul, if my kids have eternal souls, and if my Creator has that eternity in His hand, and my suffering or evn that of little children is meaningful in the face of that eternity, and good and evil receieve justice in that eternity, then I can deal with it. I cannot handle random, meaningless (however you want to phrase it, I'm probably using poor word choice) suffering or assign meaning to a purely materialistic life/universe. Summed up as: I would not be able to deal with particular tragedies in my life or things I observe happening in the world without an idea of justice being served and meted out at some point.

 

 

Whereas I would prefer that the agonizing suffering of toddlers with cancer be random, because I don't think it's an agony that time can erase, and there is no justice to be served in the matter. No one exercised free will to hurt them, they simply got sick, and endured unspeakable pain. 

3 hours ago, maize said:

I take issue with #2

I am not a perfect parent of I micromanage my children.

Nor if I wrap them in bubble wrap to prevent them from ever being injured.

Or keep them in a sterile environment where they won't get sick but also won't gain experience.

Good comes in many forms; sometimes good is letting people grow and learn and act for themselves.

Such a huge difference, though, between your child getting sick or injured because you don't wrap them in bubble wrap, and your child enduring unimaginable pain because the genetic lottery offered them cancer. Or an evil person exercised free will to rape and torture and kill them. I'm all about letting people grow and learn and act for themselves, even if they get hurt in the process. I don't think cancer or horrible death ever has to be a part of the growing process, thus I'm not okay with saying it's okay that it happens because it has higher meaning and people learn from it. 

3 hours ago, maize said:

You are right that there is no growth IF the baby does not exist beyond mortality. 

If mortality is all there is, I'm not sure growth matters anyway. We're just a bunch of atoms that happen to be associated with each other for awhile; neither pain nor joy is really significant except in a right this moment sort of way.

I think pain or joy in the moment is extraordinarily significant. If you can prevent someone from suffering in the moment, I think that has extraordinary meaning no matter what, perhaps even more meaning if we are mortal. The value of removing pain from a living being is beyond measurement, imo. 

3 hours ago, maize said:

Fair enough, and I'm on board with "let's do what we can to limit the pain of life for all the people" even if we are just a bunch of atoms cause evidently bunches of atoms are capable of experiencing discomfort themselves when aware of discomfort in other bunches of atoms.

I just don't see any grand metaphysical good and evil or real meaning in anything under those conditions. 

And I need meaning, which is probably why I find myself incapable of believing in a godless and purely mortal reality.

I don't need a grand metaphysical meaning. The meaning in the now, the stopping of suffering for now, is valuable on its own. I mean, if I'm not mortal, that's awesome as well, but not required 😄

2 hours ago, Katy said:

 

I think it's possible, but he would be an exceedingly rare person if he came to reject all his childhood indoctrination solely out of philosophy, or because someone he ministered to called him out on his BS. <snip>

IMO you have to believe in eternity and in free will to be okay with it.  Not the idea that God is causing the evil to happen, but that he's allowing it to happen because of free will.

The only way a good God doesn't interfere is if in the span of eternity that is but a blip, and if that baby's purpose was something else. 

What's really terrible is that's not an isolated incident from 70 years ago.  People abuse and beat children, even infants, every day. I've taken care of babies that were repeatedly shaken until they stopped breathing.

 

To the first part: you really find it exceedingly rare in your life for people to learn and grow without a personal incentive? I know literally dozens upon dozens of people who have had their minds and hearts opened on the LGBTQ issue alone. 

To the second: the idea that a baby being used as a football is somehow less sickening because that baby will live for eternity is, I don't know? I think honestly sickening to me. I don't think that time heals all wounds, not even eternity. 

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

I don't like the idea that some innocents suffer because they are there to teach others how to self actualise.

Amen. 

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

ETA: It should go without saying, but in case it doesn't--I absolutely do not believe Satan causes all illness. I believe some occurs because we live in a fallen world; some because of choices people make (for example, FAS); and some (a small amount?) because of Satan's direct involvement. 

Does the percentage caused by Satan's direct involvement make a difference? 

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I am speechless.  You think my child brought this on himself because our family needed some practice?  

The idea that a child endures horrific suffering so other people can learn some lessons is appalling to me. Some soul chose that in heaven? Even if that's something you believe can happen, this poor human kid on earth has no awareness of it and is not, to me, the same 'person' as a mature soul on the supernatural plane making that decision. For this to be a valid decision, the same consciousness that makes the decision would have to endure the suffering, and that's not what happens. 

[katilac]

59 minutes ago, LarlaB said:

I have come to believe God has allowed evil to influence and alter this world- genetic mutation, pathology, murder, cruelty, domination,  I don't think pain is God's problem,  nor does evil change who God is.  I think pain is a product of evil and brokenness. But again, that's a complex conclusion. 

How is genetic mutation a consequence of evil? How is childhood pain that results from genetic mutation a product of evil? 

I can understand saying that child abuse is a product of evil. But genetic mutation? Please explain. 

[unsinkable]

4 hours ago, unsinkable said:

what's that book where the guy goes back in time, to a little bit before the time of the crucifixtion, and he is delirious and mumbling all this NT stuff about Jesus. Then people think he is Jesus and then eventually he is crucified? I think he walks out of the desert?

Quoting myself bc I found it. 

Behold the Man by Moorcock. 

The tangent about what God looks like/is like reminded me of the song, What if God was One of Us, which reminded me of the book but it took me til now to remember the name.

Thanks for everyone's help!!!

[MercyA]

20 minutes ago, katilac said:

Does the percentage caused by Satan's direct involvement make a difference?  

Make a difference in what way? I was just thinking/writing aloud and making a guess--based on Scripture, personal experience, and things I've read and heard--that likely most illness is caused by genetics, exposure to toxins, the aging process, etc. rather than by Satan's involvement. I could be wrong, of course.

Edited August 2, 2019 by MercyA

[MercyA]

2 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

Quoting myself bc I found it. 

Behold the Man by Moorcock. 

The tangent about what God looks like/is like reminded me of the song, What if God was One of Us, which reminded me of the book but it took me til now to remember the name.

Thanks for everyone's help!!!

Sorry, unsinkable, I read your post a couple times but nothing came to mind! Glad you found it! 🙂 

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Make a difference in what way? I was just thinking/writing aloud and making a guess--based on Scripture, personal experience, and things I've read and heard--that likely most illness is caused by genetics, exposure to toxins, the aging process, etc.

In the sense that suffering is or is not caused by Satan inducing evil, deceiving people, and so on. Any percentage of Satan causing directly causing illness or suffering, with no 'weakness' or sin upon the part of man, erodes the case that suffering and evil are due to man's free will.