Video says:Breast is best research is faulty

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Apologies.  Your post came across to me as if you were saying that in the developing world, babies aren't dying from failure to thrive due to lack of supply, but rather, because of formula company marketing.  And what I was trying to say in my response was that FTT can occur due to EBF'ing, regardless of what part of the world a mother lives in, and that in the developing world those babies are less likely to die because of our health care system, rather than because of how our developed society supports BFing.  

Of course medical issues can occur anywhere. I didn't say they weren't ever dying from lack of supply but that the formula industry was and is actively sabotaging breastfeeding in places where access to formula and clean water is not what it is here. Given that the actual percentage of women who can't physically breastfeed because of a medical issue is pretty small (though tragic where formula is not readily available!), I would say that marketing formula to those women while they have newborns, telling them it is scientifically better than their own milk, creating a culture of "only poor women breastfeed" in areas of extreme poverty is much more likely to be a cause of FTT than a true medical issue like you experienced. Further, creating a culture where formula is considered superior or breastfeeding is looked down upon robs women of having a community of women to help them when they physically can't breastfeed for whatever reason.

The poster I quoted was, again, talking about two disparate situations as if they were the same problem when in areas that she was talking about, formula companies were causing the issues with infant feeding, not solving them.

If Nestle or whatever other company wants to go on a medical mission to donate formula to mothers in the 3rd world who cannot breastfeed, then more power to them. But that is not what's happening (despite what Nestle would say) and it's pretty widely known by many, many international aid organizations that what these companies are doing is harming infants and public health, not helping these mothers out of the goodness of their hearts or trying to feed starving children. Wikipedia has a good summary and just googling the Nestle boycott will give you a lot of information. I am speaking generally about what happens in developing countries where this is an issue, not to any one person's specific situation.

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, Katy said:

 

Really? Because I don't think I know any women like that but I know a lot who exclusively breastfeed, and I know a lot who feel guilty about switching to formula and who kept it a secret until I confessed what a terrible time I'd had with my last baby and breastfeeding.  The pregnancy was easy but BF wouldn't work because of multiple medical issues.  And I had no idea how difficult pumping would be with other children needing my attention.  It took more than 8 hours a day and it got to the point when something stressful happened my supply dropped to 20% of what it had been for weeks. I'm so thankful for formula. 

But then my mom was a big La Leche League enthusiast back in the 80's.  Maybe the people I am most comfortable with are just a certain subset of similar people.

 

I had never met anyone who had breastfed or ever seen a woman breastfeed before I had my first.  My mother had never breastfed any of her kids.  None of my aunts or siblings ever did either.  Only one of my best friends breastfed her kids.  In fact, the only breastfeeding people I know IRL are all home schooling/SAH parents. A small percentage overall, even in a state as friendly to home schooling and as low cost of living as Oklahoma.

Thanks to crappy family policies in general in this country, and certainly in my state,  the truth is for the vast majority of women, breastfeeding is just not a realistic option and hasn't been for at least 2-4 generations.  Because as you note, no matter how you breastfeed, it's extremely time consuming and frankly, most women work and most of them will never have a job that allows decent maternity leave, much less time throughout the workday to pump, and pumping is a *#^{#} for many women.  I can go months without encountering a woman who isn't a fellow homeschooler/sahm breastfeeding her baby.  You will find a huge correlation between income and breastfeeding and it's not because poor people have inferior boobs.

For the record.  I'm pro breastfeeding is best, family social policies, quality formula, clean water, education for all, universal healthcare, a minimum income, and professional parent pensions.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Murphy101

[Farrar]

The idea that Medela is somehow just the same/equal to Nestle, the largest formula maker is hilarious to me. Yes, of course some individual people make money on breastfeeding. There are some bf clothes and bras, some products for bf'ing, a few brands of pumps, and LC's. There's no way that's as big as bottles and formula. It's just not. Plus, one of the reasons we need LC's now anyway is that formula companies decimated breastfeeding to such an extent that we lost our oral culture of moms helping each other do it.

ETA: And I say this as someone who really thinks it's fine if you choose to breastfeed. Like I said above, I don't think it's that much better that it's really any different than most parenting choices. But denying that there's more systematic support for formula than breastfeeding is not necessary to justify your choice when it's just not true. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Farrar

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, rose said:

I understand what you're saying but I think that there is another side to the story as well. When I was living in Mexico among the natives there in the mountains I nearly witness what I was describing. There was a lady there that had a baby with severe cerbral palsy. The poor little one was probably only 7 pounds at 6 months old. She could nurse well even though the mother tried. The grandmother would nurse her as well. They were not lazy about this. As far as I know they didn't have regular access to formula. Whether or not formula would have helped is debatable but it certainly would have been nice to have be able to try it. 

There are situations in life where no amount of bf'ing or wet nursing is going to solve a babies problem but formula might. There are also situations where wet nursing is simply not available. Babies lives have been saved and improved by formula. Many, many orphans would certainly have died without it. Yes, many have been disadvantaged by it well but I for one am glad that it exists. Really the demon isn't formula it's the evil marketing that the formula companies do.

Yes, there are situations where medical care is inadequate to support a whole host of issues, infant feeding included. I don't disagree with this. While anecdotes are very compelling, I don't think they necessarily help us identify the root causes or solutions for said problems. I had a son who was allergic to dairy and cow's milk formula would have been disastrous for us, but I don't think my individual story gives an accurate picture of the benefits or drawbacks of formula overall.

I don't think anyone here has said or implied that formula is a demon or evil.

[fairfarmhand]

Yeah, I know many people who have no personal experience with breastfeeding because there is no stay at home mom. Lots of them. They are just trying to deal with the idea that mom won’t get paid till she goes back to work at 3-6 weeks post partum.

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well of course they aren't the same.  For one thing, Nestle makes a LOT of other things.  If I am not mistaken, Medela makes BF supplies and that's pretty much it, right?  Nestle however makes everything from chocolate chips to frozen pizza to kitty litter.  

 

The formula and baby food end of their business is huge though. Way bigger than pump or breastfeeding bra makers.

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think there is a difference between being physically unable to BF, and making enough milk to allow the child to thrive.  I was physically able to BF.  There were no latch issues, or allergies or sensitivities to be considered.  He simply wasn't getting enough milk.   But it's likely my feeling that there's a difference that led me to interpret the post that way.  

Well, AFAIK, being physically unable to breastfeed includes not making enough milk. In fact, I would say that is the main stat that people cite when this is discussed -- insufficient supply (inability to produce enough milk) absent other issues affects about 2% of women. It can be caused by different physical conditions, but it's not a separate thing from being physically unable to breastfeed.

[Murphy101]

Nestle actively campaigned to end breastfeeding.  Their ads were banned in many countries because of that.  For a couple generations breastfeeding was  only what the lower classes did, because people of status knew formula was more dignified and healthier and less time commitment on women, which was supposedly going to be freeing* for careers and education.. The problem was women would be given formula right off the start, which often ended breastfeeding before it even started, and when those women got home and couldn't afford to continue buying formula, their babies were screwed or they could afford it but the water was bad and the baby still got sick.  For a brief time, some thought this was okay, because well it's just poor lower classes, but thankfully some PTB decided to ban all ads for formula and stopped offering it in hospitals in many countries such as India.  Their company history is not without considerable shame at times.

Now I don't know the medela guy.  He could be a total bastard for all I know.  But his lack of infamy compared to Nestle makes it a non-comparison.

*edit to note that it not only didn't become more freeing, it became more restrictive bc now women are often told by society and social policy that if they want an education or a job, they need to deny their basic biology as women and either not have children or damn well schedule that cesarean and give him/her a bottle and get right back to living as though she doesn't have children.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Murphy101

[Farrar]

9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

This kind of support is something we provided for free. 

I've had plenty of new mums and bubs in my home, helping them out with latch and other feeding issues.

Re the bolded, yeah. It would be good if women had accurate information, which mostly they don't. Our free, volunteer phone line provided that also.

It would also be good if women had adequate personal support to breastfeed. My mum and my dh were very supportive through some really difficult weeks (or with the tongue tie baby, months). Luckily, our groups which met in members homes could step in to provide some of that support.

 

 

I have a close friend who’s given birth here and there. She would happily acknowledge it was massively better there.

It’s a real patchwork here... some hospitals are trying, others aren’t, some people have insurance that covers it, others don’t, some pediatrics offices have LCs, others don’t. There is a free line from La Leche, but it’s not like most people are aware of it. And so much of it is so poorly done. Like, my friend who’s an LC worked in a doctor’s office for awhile and she said they refused to listen to her about anything. They were constantly telling moms to give up instead of working with her.

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

For the record, I think the comparison of expenses is more about what is spent in caring for a BF baby, vs what they spend when using formula.  Not really about what Medela spends vs Nestle.  Sure, pumps can be covered by insurance (aren't most now?)  But so can formula be covered by WIC.  But in either case there are other expenses not covered, like the breast pads, the bottles, nipples etc.  I mean....if a mom is pumping, she still has all those bottle expenses anyway.  

 

I tried pumping several times with 2-3 of my babies and I thought it was hell.  I had great supply, but no matter what pump I used, they painful, tedious and twice as much time as just nursing directly.  I thought it ridiculous to be breastfeeding and still have all the pita issues formula bottle issues.  Gotta clean them and fill them and make sure they don't go bad and and. Screw it.  I didn't have time to both have all the hassle of formula and all the work of breastfeeding for two - because I was having to both still breastfeed and make sure there was enough bottle to feed too.  I did that for a whopping three days and swore I'd never pump again.  And because it felt like breastfeeding for two, I've always said if I ever have twins, I'm using formula bc I'd loose my dadblum mind otherwise. I felt nearly brain dead after three days of trying to breastfeed and pump for a date night with dh.  After all that effort to make sure the 6 month old baby would have enough milk while we were gone, I kid you not I fell asleep before we got out of the driveway and dh just reclined both our seats and we slept in the van   in the drive way until the sitter needed to go home.  Normal breastfeeding was way way easier to me.

[ktgrok]

I agree that in the US there is such poor support. Even when they say they are breastfeeding friendly, or give lip service, they are not educated enough to really be supportive. When my sister had her first she felt the baby wasn't getting enough milk. She told the nurse that. She said the baby seemed to be dehydrated, mouth dry, etc. Nurse said the latch was fine so the baby was fine. 2 hours after discharge my niece was unresponsive due to hypoglycemia and taken by ambulance back to the hospital! The idiot nurse didn't realize that a baby could have a good latch and still not be transferring milk. 

Then, baby is in the hospital for feeding problems, and when the lactation consultant showed up the baby was sleeping so she never even checked how well the baby nursed!!!! She just showed my sister how to pump, and left! No before/after feeding weighings, NOTHING. And this was with a baby with known issues! Oh, and the Doctor at the hospital gave my sister a hard time saying she should have been pumping already, to know if she had milk. Um, what?

So they didn't give her formula, but they also didn't actually help her nurse. 

Also, I find it appalling there is NO real research being done to address the issue of low supply. We have how many medications and such for sexual issues in men, but milk supply, which is also a reproductive health issue, has NOTHING. If you want the one medication that works you have to order it via an online pharmacy, etc etc. If our society supported breastfeeding we'd consider this a medical issue and have treatments. 

And as others said, the biggest factor is working. Pumping does suck, and is so much less efficient, and often plain doesn't work. 

[ktgrok]

10 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I'd think that's partly because supply issues are - most of time , not all of the time - due to to environmental factors which can be modified with accurate information and support. 

Yes, it would be good to have more info for the small % of women for whom feeding practices are not contributing to their low supply. But far more women have supply issues which we already know how to deal with.

Is my child getting enough milk ? - that's easy to check - number of wet nappies over 24 hrs, odor of urine. If a baby is having plenty of wet nappies, without that strong ammonia smell to them, they are getting enough milk.

I would always take a baby in whose urine output decreased, and whose urine become dark or smelly. And that's what I'd point out to the doctor or nurse or LC as an indicator of concern.

Maybe I just know women who are a statistical anomaly, but I do know some who had a lot of support and education, but still had trouble with supply. They never gave formula, but were having to take multiple supplements, prescription meds, pump after feeding, do breast compressions, fight infections, etc etc. One it was probably her thyroid...she had trouble regulating it and hyperthyroid can cause lots of milk but no let down...so constant engorgment but baby barely getting enough. it was miserable, and no doctors were willing or able to help. Another it may have been due to PCOS, or glandular issues, or I don't know what, but it was a HUGE struggle and she had all sorts of supportive women helping her. She just doesn't make much milk, no matter what. I really do think there is more to it than just environmental interference, and that the 2% number may be off. 

[Farrar]

15 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I'd be interested to see a proper study done, and good data collected. I haven't seen anything so far that suggests medical issues account for a much higher % of non-initiation or discontinuance of breastfeeding.

Don't get me wrong - research is good. And it must have been horribly frustrating for your friends to experience the issues they did. And options for those moms would be wonderful.

I just hear a lot of women giving up 'because they have no milk' and either it's because their milk hasn't come in yet, and they don't know about the benefits of colustrum, and that their milk will come in soon if they continue to feed, or their supply is low, but then you find out they are restricting feeds, or they are mistaking the late afternoon dip or growth spurts for low supply., and then supplementing with formula, which does reduce their supply.  And for a lot of women, supply is adjustable. Feeding more often, removing supplementation, hand expressing in addition to feeding - for a lot of us (the majority of women) - these things work and enable us to keep going.

 

 

This is what I see too. This is a bit like Cesarean rates, I think And we know for sure that those are too high. Yet with the exception of people who specifically chose a Cesarean, everyone thinks theirs was absolutely medically necessary. But... that can't possibly be true. I'm not going to doubt an individual woman's birth story. I mean, some are definitely medically necessary after all. Plus, RUDE. But I'm also aware that statistically speaking, most of them are wrong. Their Cesareans were not necessary. I think it's the same with "supply issues" for the most part. Or "latch issues." Yes, these things happen and are very real and thank goodness for formula. And if you hit a bump and decide, you know, I have so much going on, I don't want to get over that bump, that's okay. I respect that decision. But it seems like a lot more women have these "medical" reasons for not breastfeeding than would be statistically feasible for the species to survive.

[Catwoman]

4 hours ago, StellaM said:

As to the question of why it's still a thing, from my perspective it's for several reasons:

1. inaccurate information - there's a sh%t ton of it in all online b/feeding discussions, mostly around establishing and maintaining supply. Once people are no longer giving out inaccurate info, the need to jump in will be much reduced.

2. lack of acknowledgement that breastfeeding as a maternal practice has been systematically undermined, and continues to be undermined today. Those packets of formula in hospitals ? Breast feeding advocates didn't agitate for those to be removed because they hate formula feeding moms and judge them ever second of their petty lives - they worked for that because it was shown to undermine successful breastfeeding initiation, which reduced choice for women’s who DO want to or intent to, breastfeed. Workplaces undermine breastfeeding with lack of maternal leave, and safe, clean places to express at work. Formula companies are out for the formula dollar. Time for people to acknowledge that, whatever their individual choice, breastfeeding is not something that is systemically supported in your or mine or many other countries.

3. When it is supported with breastfeedly policies, it would be nice for people to acknowledge that, rather than a way to make their own lives suck, it's an attempt at addressing this imbalance. It won't work for all people. But it will work for mothers who want to, or have decided to, breastfeed. 

4. The absolute inability of people to simply accept others' childbirth/breastfeeding narratives.  On both sides. I don't judge a woman who uses medication through her birth - why is she judging me for being happy and pleased with my unmedicated birth ? I don't judge women who cannot breastfeed for a v ariety of reasons - why judge me if I feel happy about my eventual success in breastfeeding for a decade, and my time helping other moms defeat the misinformation, the lack of support, to go on and do the same, as 'insensitive' or 'judging others' ?

And finallly, when 'breastfeeding nazi' dies out, that will be a great day for the conversation.

 

 

It does feel like judging, though, when people act as though the only valid excuse for a new mother not breastfeeding is if there is a medical reason for it. 

Women should not be made to feel as though they have a moral responsibility to breastfeed their babies.

If a woman chooses to bottle-feed her baby, that is her choice to make — and her reasons are no one’s business. She doesn’t need to explain or justify her decision to anyone. People should not be shaming her for it or suggesting that if she doesn’t at least try to breastfeed, she doesn’t care about her baby’s health. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Catwoman

[hjffkj]

51 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This is what I see too. This is a bit like Cesarean rates, I think And we know for sure that those are too high. Yet with the exception of people who specifically chose a Cesarean, everyone thinks theirs was absolutely medically necessary. But... that can't possibly be true. I'm not going to doubt an individual woman's birth story. I mean, some are definitely medically necessary after all. Plus, RUDE. But I'm also aware that statistically speaking, most of them are wrong. Their Cesareans were not necessary. I think it's the same with "supply issues" for the most part. Or "latch issues." Yes, these things happen and are very real and thank goodness for formula. And if you hit a bump and decide, you know, I have so much going on, I don't want to get over that bump, that's okay. I respect that decision. But it seems like a lot more women have these "medical" reasons for not breastfeeding than would be statistically feasible for the species to survive.

I know many women who when asked why they no longer breast feed say they had medical reasons for stopping so they don't get the judgement that is so prevalent in the supposed breast feeding community. Of course not all of those women have medical issues but the fact that they have to have a 'good' reason to stop breast feeding is ridiculous.

[Arcadia]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

I have a close friend who’s given birth here and there. She would happily acknowledge it was massively better there.

 

I had a much better experience giving birth to DS14 in Asia and it was less than US$3k without insurance for natural with epidural. The closest to that level here would be a very good PPO plan, choosing a personal obgyn, personal pediatrician and personal lactation consultant. My friend who has a personal lactation specialist said what you pay is what you get (hers is also PPO).

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 She just doesn't make much milk, no matter what. I really do think there is more to it than just environmental interference, and that the 2% number may be off. 

 

None of my female cousins or male cousins’ wives have enough milk. All of us are underweight even by Asian standards and our babies are all at least 8lbs at birth and very hungry. I was 43kg/95lbs after giving birth both times, lighter than my typical pre-pregnancy weight of 45kg (BMI 18).

ETA:

Majority of my relatives are insomniacs too

From USDA https://wicbreastfeeding.fns.usda.gov/low-milk-supply

“While most moms make plenty of milk, some do have low milk supply. This might happen if you:

Limit your baby's breastfeeding sessions. Remember, the more you feed on demand, the more milk you make.

Give your baby infant formula instead of breastfeeding.

Introduce solid foods before baby is 4-6 months old.

Take certain birth control pills or other medicine.

Don't get enough sleep.

Drink alcohol or smoke.

Have had breast surgery.

Talk to your doctor if you have hepatitis B or C, herpes, or diabetes. These conditions may also affect milk supply.”

Edited May 11, 2019 by Arcadia

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, hjffkj said:

I know many women who when asked why they no longer breast feed say they had medical reasons for stopping so they don't get the judgement that is so prevalent in the supposed breast feeding community. Of course not all of those women have medical issues but the fact that they have to have a 'good' reason to stop breast feeding is ridiculous.

I don't think anyone has to justify themselves or needs a particular reason or has to tell anyone anything. If they don't want to bf, they don't want to. But the problem comes when a majority of women start thinking that bf'ing is nigh impossible because everyone they know that stopped had to do so because of a "medical issue". And maybe they were even told that by their ped! It perpetuates into a cycle of not really knowing that most issues can be overcome and aren't a reason a woman would need to quit. But if you have everyone who stops telling you they stopped because it was physically impossible to continue? Then you start wondering who can really bf? If all my friends had these issues, I probably will too.

And it's difficult too when women say things like, "After three months my breasts were just empty and baby ate every hour. I had to supplement." I am not going to say anything because none of my business, I don't know the real details, and what's done is done, but this kind of misinformation spreads like folklore unless people are actively educating themselves. 

[hjffkj]

23 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I don't think anyone has to justify themselves or needs a particular reason or has to tell anyone anything. If they don't want to bf, they don't want to. But the problem comes when a majority of women start thinking that bf'ing is nigh impossible because everyone they know that stopped had to do so because of a "medical issue". And maybe they were even told that by their ped! It perpetuates into a cycle of not really knowing that most issues can be overcome and aren't a reason a woman would need to quit. But if you have everyone who stops telling you they stopped because it was physically impossible to continue? Then you start wondering who can really bf? If all my friends had these issues, I probably will too.

And it's difficult too when women say things like, "After three months my breasts were just empty and baby ate every hour. I had to supplement." I am not going to say anything because none of my business, I don't know the real details, and what's done is done, but this kind of misinformation spreads like folklore unless people are actively educating themselves. 

I agree with everything you've said. I understand all the underlying issues that cause the confusion, the misinformation, the judgement, the feeling shamed when you choose either option if it isn't the norm in your social group, etc.

My main reason for commenting on this thread is to try to explain to people why many women are hurt by the 'breast is best' phrase and how the way many breastfeeding advocates have turned it into a negative phrase. 

 

[Teaching3bears]

I had originally looked at this video because sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I formula-fed my kids instead of extended breast feeding. My two oldest have severe special needs and my youngest was breast fed for the shortest amount of time (though maybe the last few months don't make a big difference anyways because they were only being breastfed once a day and were getting the rest of nutrition from food.)

maybe I had toxins in my breast milk?

[RootAnn]

On 5/10/2019 at 12:43 AM, Arcadia said:

The lactation specialist was so rude and pushy that even my MIL was shocked and my husband had to try to be polite in shooing her out of the hospital room. 

The LCs at the hospital I had my #2, #3, & #5 babies at were "assertive." They insisted I wake babies up so that they could watch me nurse them. I refused & kicked them out every time. Overall, every one of them was rude and overbearing. One acted like a  know-it-all but who was wrong about the things she was insisting - because I know my kids & she didn't.

The hospital I had my first at likely gave her formula when she was in the nurse's station which led to her being admitted to the NICU and a whole host of other issues. It took me a couple of weeks (at hone) to get her to latch and breastfeed after her NICU bottle-feeding time. I went back to work & pumped for her for almost a year.

16 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

BFing can be really inexpensive but if you need to pump, there are certainly other  costs involved.  

There are, but I don't think there were long-term costs - mostly the one time ones (bottles, pump). I don't think I ever had more than six bottles to use and mostly just used four. As she drank the milk, we washed the bottles & reused them. I had a super-supply & could easily have fed another baby on the extra milk I had.

My mom formula fed us all. She was not bf-friendly, but I don't care what she thinks. I bf because it was cheap although it wasn't always easy.

[LMD]

18 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

While scientists are no longer saying that formula is better than breast milk, we are still dealing with the consequences from the fallen breastfeeding rates that occurred because of it. There are a lot of women who literally don't know other people who have breastfed, or who are feeling pressure from their partner, parents or inlaws to bottle feed "so they can be involved." These women don't have examples to look to or support from people around them and that really affects a woman's ability to be successful. 

I feel like for some women they do kind of have to adopt a "Nazi" like stance (I hate that term) in order to be successful breastfeeding because they are on their own, surrounded by naysayers.

 

Yes I think this is a big part of it.

We have lost a huge amount of wisdom. We don't even know how to look for it anymore.

I am so frustrated with how fractured we all are, especially women and especially around becoming mothers. I could weep. But I was young and arrogant when I had my babies and I didn't want advice or respect my foremothers either...

I don't go in for mummy wars stuff at all. We're all just figuring it out. I just wish we would be better at figuring it out together.

[ktgrok]

It is true that a lot of women don't know others who nursed so don't have a support system, but hopefully that is getting better. When I had DS19 my mom was very proud that she nursed us until 6 months, which was well beyond the norm (and she supplemented my sister from the beginning). I was lucky that she was supportive, but it was unusual for someone of her generation to have breastfed at all.  My MIL insisted on giving me a special pitcher to make mixing formula easier, despite me saying over and over I didn't want to use formula. My coworkers made all the normal cow references when I pumped at work, and then one of them shifted to telling me to wean. Specifically that I should wean around 6-8 weeks like dogs do. Yes, she was a vet tech, but my baby wasn't a puppy!!! I'd never ever seen anyone nurse a baby before I had my son. Whereas in tribal cultures I would have seen countless babies nursed over the years. 

As some say, imagine trying to ride a bike based on verbal descriptions when you've NEVER seen anyone ever ride a bike, or even seen a bike. It would be so much harder. I often think that half the problem women have with positioning is from never seeing a baby nurse - it often isn't the latch causing pain but the posititiong of the entire baby. 

And I do think that women are done a disservice when they are not told that common things like cluster feeding, comfort nursing, etc boost their supply and are NORMAL. Again, this goes back to never seeing anyone nurse. We think a baby sucking on a paci for hours is normal but a baby sucking at the breast for hours means something is wrong...when hello, they are obviously the same thing! That doesn't mean you can't use a paci for a break here and there, say to take a nap or eat dinner or shower or whatever, but if baby does all his comfort sucking somewhere other than the breast as designed that will have an impact. On the other hand, if we tell a mom she can NEVER use a paci even to say, make it through a car ride or take a shower or eat dinner, we are making breastfeeding harder than it needs to be and pushing women away from it as well!!! 

Of course, I think we make pregnancy AND breastfeeding too hard. And parenting in general. You do NOT need to keep a spreadsheet or use an app or whatever to track diapers/feedings/etc if baby is dong well. If there is a specific issue, sure, but we make women insane with time limits and such. I remember being miserable with my oldest because he wouldn't stop crying unless I nursed him but he "couldn't" be hungry because it wasn't "time" yet. So much easier when I just nursed the others when they wanted, and used a paci when I needed to. 

Again, I think this comes from learning about breastfeeding in classes and books instead of just observing women around us. 

[maize]

58 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

I had originally looked at this video because sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I formula-fed my kids instead of extended breast feeding. My two oldest have severe special needs and my youngest was breast fed for the shortest amount of time (though maybe the last few months don't make a big difference anyways because they were only being breastfed once a day and were getting the rest of nutrition from food.)

maybe I had toxins in my breast milk?

It is so easy to second guess ourselves as mothers when stuff goes wrong for our kids.

There is zero research that I have seen (and I've read a fair amount of breastfeeding research) that would suggest extended breastfeeding as a contributing factor to any long-term disability. Even kids of moms who breastfeed while using recreational drugs don't generally end up severely disabled. I think the chances that your children's difficulties would be at least as severe had they been entirely formula fed are upwards of 99.99%.

And I am so sorry, and understand completely your need to search for answers. My husband and his sister both have significant congenital abnormalities that have led to major vision and hearing problems, among other issues; his sister lost her sight completely by her early twenties, dh has had multiple eye surgeries over the years and his eye doctors all say it is nothing short of miraculous that he can see at all at this point (his vision is very poor). I know my mother in law wondered if something she did contributed to their problems. I think you can take comfort in knowing that you have done the very best you could with the information you have had at the time for your sons. I hope and pray you can find some of the answers you need to help them be more comfortable and happy as you go forward; you are carrying such a heavy burden.

[Valley Girl]

I'm struggling with where this conversation is going at times because it's almost seems as if the message some are sending is "Don't promote breastfeeding so much because it makes moms who can't or simply don't want to do it feel bad." That's just wrong, in my opinion. I nursed my kids approximately two years each (or until everybody was ready to quit). I didn't have a family culture of it. I read the science and believed it was best for my babies. And yes, I encountered people who shouldn't have been working with new moms, such as the agressive nurse post-delivery who grabbed me and tried to force the nipple into my baby's mouth while I was still looped from the meds I was given for complications. When I had trouble at home, the so-called helpline was zero help. I would have loved better assistance because when you have a hungry, wailing infant, you need help now, not during the hours of 9-5. (I also had my otherwise supportive DH tell me my milk was "sour.") I kept those sample cans of formula in the pantry just in case. Fortunately,  I was able to keep on and find help, and I'm VERY glad I did even though it was exhausting, and sometimes painful. It was the best choice for my babies for many reasons. My sister, however, formula-fed her kids. She had many well-thought-out reasons for her choice. And guess what? It was the right decision for HER babies. Right choice vs. right choice. It's not a freaking competition. If guess my point  is, if you choose to breastfeed, be proud of that choice. You're doing your best for your kid. If you choose to formula feed,  be proud of that choice. Again, you're doing your best for your kid. And, in the vast majority of cases, those kids are going to be fine because what we feed them is only one decision out of thousands. Own the choice. People can only make you feel "shamed" about it if you buy into their nonsense.

[SKL]

My mom, who is a proponent of breastfeeding and breastfed each of her 6 kids as long as practical (up to 2 years), warns moms-to-be that breastfeeding is painful at first.  She does not want people to be discouraged by unexpected but temporary discomfort.  I have never heard anyone else "admit" that breastfeeding isn't at all pleasant in the beginning.  I wonder how many women give up because they think the initial pain means they are not meant to breastfeed.

So I'm agreeing that not having a mom or close relatives / friends that have breastfed can be a deterrent.

(Not judging anyone - my kids were in foster care for most of their 1st year and who knows what they ate.)

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

I had originally looked at this video because sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I formula-fed my kids instead of extended breast feeding. My two oldest have severe special needs and my youngest was breast fed for the shortest amount of time (though maybe the last few months don't make a big difference anyways because they were only being breastfed once a day and were getting the rest of nutrition from food.)

maybe I had toxins in my breast milk?

No. Absolutely not. Your children's special needs are not and have never been your fault. 

Hugs.

[fairfarmhand]

I’ll just say this. I’ve learned more about lactation from milking a dairy cow than I ever learned from any medical practitioner after birthing and feeding 4 babies.

[Bluegoat]

11 hours ago, Farrar said:

This is what I see too. This is a bit like Cesarean rates, I think And we know for sure that those are too high. Yet with the exception of people who specifically chose a Cesarean, everyone thinks theirs was absolutely medically necessary. But... that can't possibly be true. I'm not going to doubt an individual woman's birth story. I mean, some are definitely medically necessary after all. Plus, RUDE. But I'm also aware that statistically speaking, most of them are wrong. Their Cesareans were not necessary. I think it's the same with "supply issues" for the most part. Or "latch issues." Yes, these things happen and are very real and thank goodness for formula. And if you hit a bump and decide, you know, I have so much going on, I don't want to get over that bump, that's okay. I respect that decision. But it seems like a lot more women have these "medical" reasons for not breastfeeding than would be statistically feasible for the species to survive.

 

I've generally felt that a significant factor of so many women having this problem is related to lifestyle.  Things like, it's not all that eays even if you are home, to sit and feed a baby for 15 min out of every 45.  It really goes against our expectations and the way we do things.  And that's to say nothing of mothers who have to work.

[Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Because why would anyone bother with the difficulties of initiating breastfeeding if it literally makes zero difference what you feed your baby ?

 

Where I am from, the message is breastfeeding is free while formula cost $$$$. Formula is cheaper in Asia than US for Abbott and Nestle. For someone like my friend who has surplus breast milk supply and didn’t need to buy any breastfeeding supplies, it really is free. For my BIL’s wife, the cost of breastfeeding supplies and supplements to boost milk supply won’t cheap. My country of origin has four months maternity leave (govt pays two months and company pays two), insurance has no say in which medical professionals you see. That makes choosing a LC very easy as long as you are willing to pay. The nurses at the private hospital where I gave birth to my oldest all could help with breastfeeding and were all hyper supportive.

Here, the choice of medical professionals is limited by which insurance you have. We interviewed obgyn and pediatricians before picking one and that’s because we have good insurance coverage that allows us to be choosy. It is hard to find a medical professional that treat you as a human and not just another case. All my friends who breastfed and use a lactation specialist did not use one from the hospital. When my husband went to the maternity hospital store to buy me a pump, the staff there literally told him that I should not use a pump. My youngest was born just past midnight and we left the hospital the same day because we couldn’t leave fast enough. It was that bad an experience. 

There were food my friend could not eat while breastfeeding because her babies would break out with eczema whenever she eats those and breastfeed. We were also told in breastfeeding talks to go for omega rich foods or supplements so that our babies would be smarter. Below quoted is what I meant.

“Smarter Fats for Brain Development

One key ingredient in breastmilk is a brain-boosting fat called DHA (docasahexaenoic acid), an omega-3 fatty acid. DHA is a vital nutrient for growth, development and maintenance of brain tissue. Autopsy analysis of brain tissue from breastfed and formula-fed infants shows that the brains of breastfed babies have a higher concentration of DHA, and DHA levels are highest in babies who are breastfed the longest. Infant formulas made in the United States do not contain DHA.

Add More DHA to your Diet

To insure that babies get enough nutrients for their growing brains, it’s important that breastfeeding mothers get enough DHA in their diets. Rich sources of DHA are fish (particularly salmon and tuna). Increasing DHA consumption will benefit mom’s health too. Remember the nutritional rule of F’s: four ounces of fish a day keeps central nervous system degeneration at bay.

Brain Development and Cholesterol

Cholesterol is another fat needed for optimal brain development. Breastmilk contains a lot of cholesterol, while infant formulas currently contain none. “Low in cholesterol” may be good news for adult diets, but not for babies–cholesterol provides basic components for manufacturing nerve tissue in the growing brain.

DHA, cholesterol and other breastmilk fats provide the right substances for manufacturing myelin, the fatty sheath that surrounds nerve fibers. Myelin acts as insulation, making it possible for nerves to carry information from one part of the brain or body to another. So important are these brain-building fats, that if mother’s diet doesn’t provide enough of them for her milk, the breasts can make them on the spot.” https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/feeding-eating/breastfeeding/why-breast-is-best/breastfeeding-brain-development

 

[mumto2]

I  have a whole lot of thoughts on breast feeding and am not sure that I can organize them into a post.  I spent almost a decade working as a volunteer for a large hospital’s outreach to all new parents,  the parents signed up to be contacted btw.  Because I had BF , had done the training for .......and was willing, my calls were directed to those moms who had checked the box on our form that they planned to BF.  My purpose was basically to make any decision re BF postpartum comfortable for the mom and to attempt to verify both baby and mom were doing well.  I worked with hundreds of moms over the years and truly do not consider myself to be a BF nazi.  I would use whatever program resources I had available to help moms and babies in many different circumstances. I helped a lot of moms......some breast fed and some didn’t,  I didn’t drop a mom who wanted to continue contact ever........btw we all admitted it may hurt at first,  part of the reason we got in touch early was to make sure mom knew about safe creams and to help with supply issues.

Regarding the cost of pumping supplies........BF did not come easy for me.  I went in to the decision expecting to pump and feed.   Before opening the box the accountant in me ran the numbers and by starting to pump as opposed to buying formula I was committing to roughly 18 weeks of milk coming from me to break even.......I simply was going off the cost of the pump and the cost of formula.   I had called a friend who pumped and bottle fed to get ounce information for number of ounces a day as the baby grew.😂  We actually did convert to breast after a couple of weeks and the pump still got a lot of use over the years. 

Medical considerations......I have taken Synthoid since I was 21.  I had a whole lot of concerns that I voiced with many medical professionals over rather my breast milk would be safe for my baby.....I had never expected to BF because of the Synthroid.   Along the way a female ob ( I was high risk so many doctors) pulled out her research because she had had that same concern for her own baby.......converted me.  Another respected doctor regarding my severe endometriosis reminded me when he stopped to see my baby in the hospital how great breast feeding would be in terms of preserving my fertility .......I had been considering pumping and dumping for months before the other doctor convinced me to let my baby have my milk.  Personally no regrets.......

Breast feeding isn’t right for every mother and baby but I firmly believe that the baby benefits hugely from even a few days of the experience.  The skin on skin,  the colostrum .........  Going to be honest and say my first few weeks with bottles was so much work that I loved the ease of being able to just feed my baby with no special prep.  Yes, I had to be the one but most of the time it was going to be me anyway.  

 

[Murphy101]

20 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Literally zero difference?  Of course not.  

But feeding a baby formula is not going to harm a baby   Barring medical issues such as allergies, medical conditions and such, babies will thrive on formula.  Formula might not be the Kobe beef of baby food but it’s still perfectly ok to feed a baby.   It’s not like it’s liquid twinkies and fried onion rings.    

 

 

 

 

But what you casually say as "barring these many things that are actually very common and often major issues in the population' IS a harm to babies and a gamble a mom takes that her kid won't have when she uses formula.   As others have pointed out, once a baby is on formula, there is often no option to go back to breastfeeding if the formula is a problem.  Formula can hurt some babies and when it does, the only option is just try more kinds of formula, often at great expense.  It was awful for my third born.  I didn't get to breastfeed him at all.  My milk didn't come in until he was 7 days old and by then he was attached to bottled formula.  It took four different formulas and finally getting prescription formula before we found one he didn't react violently too.  He has soy and dairy issues which at the time, meant there was literally nothing over the counter I could get him and for sure nothing that WIC would cover.  His first year was awful and by the time I convinced a dr this was not normal and actually got his health taken seriously, he was a very miserable baby for most of his first 18 months of life.  And that's not even counting that each can of powdered formula cost us over $30 and that was over 20 years ago when things were supposedly more affordable.  While babies can be sensitive to breastmilk bc of something a mother ate, it's usually far milder and fairly easy to adjust the mothers diet.  But it's extremely rare for a baby to have a serious issue with mothers milk.

Now, that didn't keep me from supplementing with formula at times with other children if I felt it necessary, but after that, I was far more cautious about it and refused to do it until the baby was at least 4 months old and my milk well established. And I researched the crap out of ways to assist milk production to see if there was anything I could do to avoid that late milk arrival.  (It was an awful stressful delivery and my ob was a jerk who didn't give pain mess after cesarean. I think that and some other stuff contrived against me.)

[DesertBlossom]

52 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Really ? 

It can be pleasant - it was fine from the word go with one of mine - and it can be unpleasant at the beginning also. Even painful. 

I don't think this is hidden knowledge. I was aware of it before my first baby. 

My advice for new moms wanting to breastfeed is that if they can stick it out for 6 weeks, things will get so much easier. Your supply adjusts, your nipples aren't so sore, baby develops some head control and figures out latching, and you begin to fall into some kind of pattern. But those first 6 weeks can be so hard for a new, tired mom and do require some grit and determination. And I think new moms ought to warned that it is hard, but that it does get easier. 

[mumto2]

3 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

I had originally looked at this video because sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I formula-fed my kids instead of extended breast feeding. My two oldest have severe special needs and my youngest was breast fed for the shortest amount of time (though maybe the last few months don't make a big difference anyways because they were only being breastfed once a day and were getting the rest of nutrition from food.)

maybe I had toxins in my breast milk?

 No!  Just plain no!!!  Your children’s special needs are not your fault.  Please don’t ever think that.  Sending hugs and prayers......

A bit of trivia that goes against everything we were taught and believe......in a rural part of the Midwest breast feeding moms in the 1960’s were actually given beer to bring in their milk supplies......very large glasses of beer per my friend delivered right to her hospital bed.  I think she was there for 10 days.  She didn’t normally drink alcohol and had the nurses after her to drink it all.  I would never advise alcohol (and neither would she) but it was obviously custom.  Friend’s children and grandchildren are heathy btw.   She was cracking up at my no water bottles,  no nuts (Dd got a rash), no alcohol, no several other things.....I was obsessed. 

 

[Arcadia]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

I think your link might be out of date.  I am pretty sure baby formulas have had DHA for a few years now.  I seem to recall seeing that noted on cans I would stock at CVS. 

 

The Dr Sears article is a few years old. I quoted it because that was what my friends and I were told more than a decade ago. My obgyn for DS14 told me to supplement with Baby DHA (e.g. https://www.nordicnaturals.com/consumers/babys-dha) if we wanted to. The same obgyn also encourages moms taking prenatal DHA during pregnancy. 

[Murphy101]

Breastfeeding requires everything our social system derides.

It requires lots of doing whatever your baby wants when they want it. Which for generations was called spoiling instead of what it is - a baby being a baby.  If the baby seems hungry feed them.  Don't assign some twisted alterior motive to your baby implying the 2 month old is trying to manipulate you. Yes, they have more frequent diapers.  Yes, they likely will not sleep through the night until closer to a year or even 2 years old.  It's okay.  No, you can't get a break and have someone else do it, it's all on you.  Dad can just change more diapers and do the burping to stay involved.  Just when you think there's a new routine you can plan your life around, there's a growth spurt and it's right back to being like a newborn nursing again.  Yes, they get teeth.  No, teeth are not a sign that they are too old to nurse. (Good lord, many of mine had nearly a full mouth of teeth by 6 months!)  Yes it can hurt the breast.  But also, it makes afterbirth pains a lot more painful too.  Yes, I have cried through the nursing of many a newborn because it was way worse than actual labor pains.

NONE of this is what mothers for 2-3 generations have any expectation or experience with.  The exact opposite is what they are told to expect and demand of themselves and their babies.  And there's not much support either way. From the medical perspective, those people are/were often parents too and they have the same lack of personal experience, so to them, "Well formula worked fine for us, so why are you insisting on making life harder? Just use formula." 

But it shouldn't be harder.  It should be the norm and I don't think we will ever genuinely have equality for women until our social policies and medical policies meet the natural needs of women/mothers and are respected instead of shunted as irresponsible and unreasonable.  

[Murphy101]

14 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think your link might be out of date.  I am pretty sure baby formulas have had DHA for a few years now.  I seem to recall seeing that noted on cans I would stock at CVS. 

 

While formula may have supplements that imitate what is in breastmilk, it is not the same as what is in breastmilk.  It may or may not be absorbed as well or be found the equal quality or quantity as if from actual breastmilk.

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, mumto2 said:

A bit of trivia that goes against everything we were taught and believe......in a rural part of the Midwest breast feeding moms in the 1960’s were actually given beer to bring in their milk supplies......very large glasses of beer per my friend delivered right to her hospital bed.  

 

Asia has that saying too. My FIL’s generation (born in the 30s/40s) also believes that beer and stout boost breast milk supplies. My MIL had her first child in the late 60s and giving bottles/cans of Guinness Stout to the mom post delivery was common. My BIL and his wife are teetotalers so his wife used fenugreek and lactation tea. My SIL did try beer and it didn’t work for her.

[Murphy101]

I have never restricted my alcohol consumption while pregnant or breastfeeding.  It's total bs.  Granted, I've never been a heavy drinker to start with.  But a glass of wine or a glass of beer with dinner sometimes is not going to harm any baby.  If it was, humanity wouldn't have survived this long.  And people who can't tell the difference between A glass vs a 6 pack or entire bottle, have a problem they need to face. It is an extremism to suggest that a minority problem for some must be dealt with by means of a total ban for all.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

I am not suggesting that formula is a perfect food or advocating for everyone to feed their babies formula.  What I am saying is that it is ok to make that choice.  The fact that some people have Celiac doesn’t mean it’s not ok for people without it to consume products with gluten.  The fact that some people are allergic to peanuts doesn’t mean that it’s not ok for other families to eat PB sandwiches.  

 

But you know what drs  caution against giving to babies under 6 months and introducing slowly, as in once in 24 hours to see if there's a reaction before giving more? Things like wheat and pb and dairy. But for formula, parents are never cautioned to reconsider giving an entire bottle of formula every 3-4 hours or told that the only option if there isn't a problem will be to just try other formulas be they have eliminated the one thing that is the least likely to cause a problem for baby.  And there's a range of issues below serious allergies that can still be unhealthy and miserable.  Constipation, diarrhea, rashes, irritability... 

I have no problems with moms using formula.  They don't owe me an explaination.  But society does owe them all the information about breastfeeding and formula so they can make the best options for their situation and so far, our society doesn't do that and moms are  just left hanging no matter which choice they make.  I don't think that's okay.

 

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

Literally zero difference?  Of course not.  

But feeding a baby formula is not going to harm a baby   Barring medical issues such as allergies, medical conditions and such, babies will thrive on formula.  Formula might not be the Kobe beef of baby food but it’s still perfectly ok to feed a baby.   It’s not like it’s liquid twinkies and fried onion rings.    

 

 

 

 

No, but it’s a processed, engineered food that is a replacement for what tiny humans are meant to be eating. And it’s  the only food they get for five or six months. Agree that it isn’t steamed broccoli vs. onion rings. I thought of some more apt comparisons, though I think posting them is more likely to have someone offended and disagreeing with a silly analogy. But you can’t say that it isn’t going to harm a baby in any way. There is a lot of science indicating that statistically, there are potential short and long term harms. And that is from the little bit of the vast realm of human health that is known and can feasibly be looked at so far. I think in the future we will see a lot more on how breast milk vs formula affects the microbiome and on epigenetic changes affected by feeding patterns. 

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

I think your link might be out of date.  I am pretty sure baby formulas have had DHA for a few years now.  I seem to recall seeing that noted on cans I would stock at CVS. 

 

Formula with DHA is an option, but hasn’t been shown to have to same effects that researchers think DHA from breast milk is having. Probably another case of breast milk, like many things in nutrition, where the whole is more than the sum of its parts.  Breast milk is not just food, it is a body fluid that can’t be replicated by science. It’s also a little different in different women, changes through a feeding and through the day, changes with the age of the baby. Still, I do appreciate sincere efforts of manufacturers to improve infant formula when it is  done for the reason better for the health of babies that use it and not mostly for marketing purposes.

[Mergath]

22 minutes ago, Penelope said:

 

No, but it’s a processed, engineered food that is a replacement for what tiny humans are meant to be eating. And it’s  the only food they get for five or six months. Agree that it isn’t steamed broccoli vs. onion rings. I thought of some more apt comparisons, though I think posting them is more likely to have someone offended and disagreeing with a silly analogy. But you can’t say that it isn’t going to harm a baby in any way. There is a lot of science indicating that statistically, there are potential short and long term harms. And that is from the little bit of the vast realm of human health that is known and can feasibly be looked at so far. I think in the future we will see a lot more on how breast milk vs formula affects the microbiome and on epigenetic changes affected by feeding patterns. 

 

Formula with DHA is an option, but hasn’t been shown to have to same effects that researchers think DHA from breast milk is having. Probably another case of breast milk, like many things in nutrition, where the whole is more than the sum of its parts.  Breast milk is not just food, it is a body fluid that can’t be replicated by science. It’s also a little different in different women, changes through a feeding and through the day, changes with the age of the baby. Still, I do appreciate sincere efforts of manufacturers to improve infant formula when it is  done for the reason better for the health of babies that use it and not mostly for marketing purposes.

 

That's complete and total bullshit. Please cite your sources showing that feeding infants formula can cause "short and long term harm." Because every study I've seen says exactly the opposite- that there is no significant difference between kids who were ff vs. bf. 

Also, please cite your sources showing that ff kids are having negative outcomes from synthetic DHA. 

[Catwoman]

26 minutes ago, Mergath said:

 

That's complete and total bullshit. Please cite your sources showing that feeding infants formula can cause "short and long term harm." Because every study I've seen says exactly the opposite- that there is no significant difference between kids who were ff vs. bf. 

Also, please cite your sources showing that ff kids are having negative outcomes from synthetic DHA. 

 

Also, let’s not assume that all breast milk is equal and perfect, either. Not all new moms are eating properly, and some of them are smoking, drinking, doing drugs, and any number of other things that affect their overall health and, ultimately, the quality of their breast milk. I would think that formula may actually be the best possible option for many babies. 

I get so sick and tired of the ridiculous “your baby won’t be healthy if you feed her formula” propaganda. 

[Terabith]

Okay, question for StellaM or anyone else knowledgeable about breastfeeding, because this has literally been bothering me for 15 years.  

What do you do when a baby won't wake up to nurse?  

Anna had a somewhat traumatic birth.  Her heart rate dropped during pushing and they did a vacuum extraction to get her out quickly.  Her apgar at birth was 2.  She spent a couple days in the NICU, but the diagnosis was "transient tachypnea of the newborn," which pretty much means that she didn't feel like breathing.  My kid was literally too lazy to breathe.  I pumped, but they gave her formula (against my wishes) along with colostrum from bottles in the NICU.  I was worried about nipple confusion, but it was a military hospital, and I had very little say.  I had lots of support....my mother and my MIL had both nursed back in the late 70's/ 80's, even when it was very uncommon.  I had read books.  I'd taken a class.  I'd been to La Leche League.  I begged for a lactation consultant, but the advice I was given was literally to put a bottle nipple over my nipple.  Which seemed insane to me.  I tried nipple shields.  Anna had no problems latching, but she wouldn't stay awake.  Even after we got home, put her to the breast and she would instantly fall asleep.  We would strip her down, change her diaper, flick the soles of her feet, put cold cans of coke from the fridge on her naked back, jostle her, make noise....  NOTHING would rouse her.  She was getting zero calories, and the less she ate, the sleepier she was.  I took her to a competent LC, who agreed she wasn't getting anywhere's near enough milk (almost none), but her latch was good, and all she told me was I had to keep her awake.  But I couldn't.  I didn't know what to do.  She was losing alarming amounts of weight and not making enough wet diapers.  Neither my mother nor my MIL knew what to do, because the issue wasn't supply (I had enough milk to feed triplets); it wasn't let down (that was fine; not too fast or too slow); it wasn't latch, which was fine.  *I* was apparently born to breastfeed, but my child simply WOULDN'T.  I became hysterical.  We tried pumping and feeding her from bottles in order to try to get enough calories into her for her to stay awake.  She had zero problems drinking from the bottle; it was fast enough that she could take in the milk before she fell asleep again.  But it didn't give her enough energy to be able to subsequently nurse.  I tried REPEATEDLY for months to put her on the breast, but it never worked.  As soon as she got to the boob, she fell asleep, and nothing would rouse her.  She was an amazingly deep sleeper all through her toddler years.  She slept prodigious amounts and very deeply, which lulled us into thinking this baby parenting thing was simple.  

So, we gave up.  I pumped milk and she got nothing but breastmilk for six months, when I got pregnant and my supply tanked.  But it's bothered me ever since then.  What did we do wrong?  Why didn't it work?  I nursed her sister for 3.5 years.  It's literally the thing I am most proud of in my life, and it breaks my heart I couldn't do it for Anna.  Of course, if I had, I probably wouldn't have gotten pregnant with Catherine, so I guess I'm grateful for that, too.  I dunno.  I just wish I knew why it didn't work.  It IS exactly like the c section rate things.  We know they're too high, but everyone thinks theirs was necessary, and I'm not going to argue with them.  We found out when she was a toddler that she had some oral motor issues, so maybe that was part of the problem?  But her latch was good, and she had no problems drinking from a bottle.  But I wish I knew the answer to that mystery.  

[Penelope]

58 minutes ago, Mergath said:

 

That's complete and total bullshit. Please cite your sources showing that feeding infants formula can cause "short and long term harm." Because every study I've seen says exactly the opposite- that there is no significant difference between kids who were ff vs. bf. 

Also, please cite your sources showing that ff kids are having negative outcomes from synthetic DHA. 

 

You are welcome to disagree, but this isn’t a debate citing sources back and forth. That’s just silly. The weight of the evidence suggests formula feeding is, on balance, inferior to breastfeeding. You can find numerous reviews by many reputable health organizations around the world by googling it if you really want sources or expert opinions. You saying it or citing a few sources or just not reading all of the available evidence doesn’t make your opinion so, and neither does me doing the same. It’s a discussion. 

Saying that there is a difference is not demonizing a different choice. It is just an objective statistical difference, not the same thing as taking about individual cases. We all make choices from time to time that are not the “best” by some objective standard, because it isn’t a perfect ideal world and best isn’t available to all of us all of the time. Examples given earlier plus others: education, food sources, pollutants in particular environments, knowledgeable medical specialists, the list goes on and on. That doesn’t change the reality that sometimes, one option is likely a little bit better than something else.

 

You misread my post. I said that it looks like adding it isn’t having the same effects of getting it from breast milk. Maybe it’s still being looked at. If I were using formula at the present time, I’d want it to have DHA. I took some extra DHA when I was nursing my kids, but I don’t really know if that did any good either. I suspect not anything significant. Sometimes we don’t have enough information to say and err on the side of best thinking at the time, while trying to balance that and think ahead about potential unintended consequences.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Penelope

[Shoeless]

This thread is exactly why women that formula feed feel judged and hostile toward the "Breast is Best!" proponents.

[Penelope]

34 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I get so sick and tired of the ridiculous “your baby won’t be healthy if you feed her formula” propaganda. 

You’re right, that isn’t helpful. Saying that statistically, one option is overall more health-promoting than another, is not At All the same thing as saying a baby on formula won’t be healthy, or even that the vast majority of babies on formula won’t be healthy.

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Well you had some special circumstances, but I have had two kids I’ve had to set alarms to wake up and feed, because they won’t on their own.  I’ve stripped them down and tickled their feet and ended up compressing to keep milk flowing enough to make it work - then they can be asleep but milk is still being swallowed in a dream feed.  We had way too much weight loss if I didn’t wake them to do nighttime feeds, along with cluster feeds in the evening before bed.  I’ve also had to wake up to pump one side and nurse the other to keep supply up for a baby who wasn’t eating well.  In the case of nicu time I woke up three times between bed and morning to pump, 15 minutes every 3 hours.  It sucked, but you do what you have to.

When you get into that cycle of dehydration and sleepiness a bottle makes sense - you pump or supplement the pumped milk to bulk up the calories and feed that until energy improves, or even every night and save nursing for the mornings. 

Sometimes you just have to read your kiddos, too.  I’ve nursed six babies, and If I hadn’t I’d have completely failed to do so with my tough guy. Some nursing issues are just intense and you make do the best you can, even if it means pumping or adding in formula. There is no shame or failure there.  In our case we needed breast milk as medicine to help brain growth - direct words of the neonatologist and nicu nurses - so even during the weeks he couldn’t latch formula wasn’t an option they wanted to consider unless I absolutely couldn’t produce enough milk.  So round the clock pumping and NG tube +bottle+ non-nutritive nursing sessions were the order of the day.  

You are a champion for pumping for six months - that was probably the very best move.  And YES pregnancy tanks many women’s supplies, including my own. I’m always almost dried out by 14 weeks, but I’ve always struggled with milk production if I’m not nursing constantly.  The hormones are the culprit and it wasn’t anything you did.  You did the very best you could by both daughters and have a lot of wisdom and empathy to share from that - be proud of BOTH feeding situations,  because  six months of pumping is at least as difficult as several years of nursing.  My hats are off to women who can do it - I was SO DONE with the pump by about three months and couldn’t stand it anymore😱

I'm more or less at peace with how it turned out, especially because she is the "healthy" kid.  It's just bugged me.  And we definitely were setting alarms and feeding on a schedule, and waking her up to feed her!  The problem was that there was no way to KEEP her awake long enough to get more than a couple swallows in.  We would get her up, strip her down, change her diaper, flick her feet, walk around, make noise, put cold things on her naked back.  And I had pretty quick flow when I massaged.  I could pump a quart in 15 minutes if I used breast compressions.  But she just would fall asleep and fall off the breast.  She's a brilliant, wonderful, talented, beautiful kid, but I've always wondered if she would have survived if we'd lived in third world country where first she needed oxygen (because of the "too sleepy to BREATHE" thing) and then bottles (too sleepy to eat).  I'm not blaming myself.  I really think I absolutely did the absolute best I could (although my sister wound up exclusively pumping for her son for over a year, and is currently EPing for twins - her case seems to be more about the fact that she doesn't like nursing herself).  I just have always wondered what I could have done differently or better.  She was just extremely sleepy and didn't really wake up much until she was much older.  

[Penelope]

41 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

I have 4 children.  1 was entirely formula fed from day one, never had a drop of breastmilk.  1 was EBF for 6 months, and BF alongside introductions to table food for the next 6 six months.  The other two were BF'ed for approx 4ish months, which was mixed with formula and so on.  If anyone wants to look at these kids today and guess who received what form of nutrition for their first year of life, I am going to bet that person would guess wrong.  (well except for my son, who I have already stated ended up in the hospital for 4 months after EBF caused FTT.)

Formula does NOT cause direct harm because being less beneficial is not the same as actually causing harm.  Smoking causes damage to lungs...it causes harm.  If you have evidence that formula actually causes real damage to the growing body of a baby, please share. 

I like anecdotes and it is fine if people make decisions based largely on them. We all do it to greater or lesser degrees. Part of being human.

Not the same thing as studying public health issues among larger groups and looking at the numbers. Yes, there are problems inherent to this, too. We aren’t going to get all the answers we’d like. Information is incomplete, sometimes later partially or completely contradicted. But people do deserve the information available when making their choices. When the choice is made, there shouldn’t be shaming, but rather support. Babies get fed, the world moves on. But there are always new moms and new babies who need the information. That doesn’t end because someone had to or simply wanted to use formula and for whatever reason doesn’t feel great about it (even though I don’t think it is worth any mom’s time feeling bad about something like that).  One of my kids got some formula, not because of any medical issues but just because of my ignorance. I don’t think that was great, but of course I dont think that child’s health is ruined. I do understand how someone who drove themselves crazy trying to breastfeed and still ended up not being able to would have a hard time with a message of Breast is Best. I am sure in their place I would think that obnoxious, too.  But I also think expecting parents deserve honest information about their options. It is probably hard for health professionals to find a message that is going to resonate with everyone and still share the information.

 

I think causes harm vs. health promoting is semantics. When the norm is one thing, then lacking that thing can potentially cause harm. You can say vegetables are health-promoting, or you can say that the lack of vegetables in your diet can result in disease. It’s how you look at it. You are right that we probably know more about direct harm from smoking.  I don’t think they can be compared. I am not saying formula is anything like smoking, no way.   Possibility of harm does not mean definite harm but is better stated as “increased risks” of certain things. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Penelope

[Arcadia]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

  She's a brilliant, wonderful, talented, beautiful kid, but I've always wondered if she would have survived if we'd lived in third world country where first she needed oxygen (because of the "too sleepy to BREATHE" thing) and then bottles (too sleepy to eat).  

 

My twin died at 3 days old of cardio and pulmonary failure. My parents and relatives are definitely thankful I survived because of an NICU team (3rd world, SE Asia, Roman Catholic hospital) that did whatever they could. My mom (thyroid, infertility issues) has no milk supply and honestly at that point in time, all my relatives cared was that I was fighting to live. Oxygen tank with its risk was better than not surviving. I was 2lb at birth. 

[hjffkj]

13 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Is there a better phrase which can communicate that breastmilk is an ideal food for your baby ?  Is it the word 'best'  that's a problem ? 

Most public health experts will say that breastfeeding rates are lower than they could optimally be, so how do we get the message out there to mums that it really is worthwhile giving breastfeeding a go ? 

Because the popular slogan atm - fed is best - isn't optimal messaging to me. It sort of implies any caloric input is OK.

Which is inaccurate.

 

 

That is a good question.  I don't particularly like fed is best either for the same reason you don't like it.  I'll have to think a bit.