Video says:Breast is best research is faulty

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, MissLemon said:

This thread is exactly why women that formula feed feel judged and hostile toward the "Breast is Best!" proponents.

 

I agree. I don’t think the little swipes are intentional, but they are still here. 

When someone says she formula fed one of her babies even though she had no medical reasons, that would imply acceptance, but when it’s followed by saying that her reason was her “own ignorance,” that pretty much implies that only an ignorant mother would ever choose to feed her baby formula unless she had a medical reason for it.

Again, I don’t think anyone is trying to be mean, but it’s hard not to read the posts as anything but judgmental.

[MercyA]

15 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I agree. I don’t think the little swipes are intentional, but they are still here. 

When someone says she formula fed one of her babies even though she had no medical reasons, that would imply acceptance, but when it’s followed by saying that her reason was her “own ignorance,” that pretty much implies that only an ignorant mother would ever choose to feed her baby formula unless she had a medical reason for it.

Again, I don’t think anyone is trying to be mean, but it’s hard not to read the posts as anything but judgmental.

Absolutely. Thank you for expressing so well what's been bothering me in this thread.

I do not mind, *at all*, that I could not continue to breastfeed. I don't feel like I missed out. I don't feel like my child missed out. I'm not jealous of anyone who can breastfeed. The thought of formula brings me JOY because in my mind it is linked to a healthy, happy, content, chunky little baby. ❤️I enjoyed bottle feeding much more than I ever enjoyed breastfeeding.

It's the judgment and the swipes and insensitivity that bother me. Like Cat said, I doubt anyone is intentionally trying to be mean. But trust me, it comes across that way. I think we all have our own areas of tone-deafness, and this is one for some. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by MercyA

[moonflower]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

I like anecdotes and it is fine if people make decisions based largely on them. We all do it to greater or lesser degrees. Part of being human.

Not the same thing as studying public health issues among larger groups and looking at the numbers. Yes, there are problems inherent to this, too. We aren’t going to get all the answers we’d like. Information is incomplete, sometimes later partially or completely contradicted. But people do deserve the information available when making their choices. When the choice is made, there shouldn’t be shaming, but rather support. Babies get fed, the world moves on. But there are always new moms and new babies who need the information. That doesn’t end because someone had to or simply wanted to use formula and for whatever reason doesn’t feel great about it (even though I don’t think it is worth any mom’s time feeling bad about something like that).  One of my kids got some formula, not because of any medical issues but just because of my ignorance. I don’t think that was great, but of course I dont think that child’s health is ruined. I do understand how someone who drove themselves crazy trying to breastfeed and still ended up not being able to would have a hard time with a message of Breast is Best. I am sure in their place I would think that obnoxious, too.  But I also think expecting parents deserve honest information about their options. It is probably hard for health professionals to find a message that is going to resonate with everyone and still share the information.

 

I think causes harm vs. health promoting is semantics. When the norm is one thing, then lacking that thing can potentially cause harm. You can say vegetables are health-promoting, or you can say that the lack of vegetables in your diet can result in disease. It’s how you look at it. You are right that we probably know more about direct harm from smoking.  I don’t think they can be compared. I am not saying formula is anything like smoking, no way.   Possibility of harm does not mean definite harm but is better stated as “increased risks” of certain things. 

 

Yes, I agree with this statement of the situation.  If  breastfeeding is scientifically proven to be healthier for babies, then choosing not to breastfeed (not not being able to breastfeed for whatever reason, but just choosing not to) is causing harm.

But here is my question - why don't we have these same discussions about feeding your older kids factory farmed meat, or occasional candy, or anything other than a strictly ideal diet (insofar as we can even tell what this is)?  Why do we insist to women that breast is best and they should breastfeed if they can because it is ideal, but we don't have these same debates about making sure your kid eats vegetables and fish and brown rice in perfect proportions every day?  Or, for that matter, a zillion other things that we leave up to parents' discretion - not just about doing what they think is best for their child, but sometimes doing something that is less than best, statistically, just because they don't want to do the best thing?  (like, just off the top of my head, driving with their baby or child to unnecessary places like a grocery store, or church, or letting them watch TV ever, or a lot of other things)

FTR I breastfed until 1+ for each of the last 5 children; the first two were BF for the first few months and then electively(ish) weaned to formula.  I loathe breastfeeding, except for the ease of not washing bottles.  I have let-down dysphoria, and even when that lets up after a couple of months it never feels good.  So I'm not anti-breastfeeding, although I personally dislike it; I recognize that it is the right choice.

But I make a lot of "wrong" choices, too, technically speaking - we cosleep, we drive places with the kids, I'm not super strict about the vaccine schedule (boy is that an understatement), I make too many cookies, I take Tylenol when pregnant if my head hurts, I have epidurals during labor and even scheduled inductions for the last two children just to insure I get an epidural, etc.  Some of those things are occasionally controversial, but it's nothing like the breastfeeding thing.

[EmseB]

I homeschool. I think the way I educate my kids is probably not the ideal/optimal education they could possibly get. We don't have access to what I think would be the ideal/optimal education. I cant afford it, we don't live close enough, numerous factors. I have peers who think homeschooling is actually worse than what I do have access to and have told me so.

In the end, I have to own the choices I make with regard to my kids' education and be okay with the objective fact that I'm not the best most ideal teacher of all the things. Even if someone says, "Homeschooling isn't ideal for x, y, z objective reasons," I have made the choice that is best for me and my kids right now.

I can even be a homeschooler and advocate for better access to a different mode of education that I view as objectively better for most in society. And I can advocate for my right to homeschool at the same time!

In the end, as an individual, I have to make the best choice for me and my kids. I have to be okay with it and let judgment roll off. I can't get sore about someone stating that my choice is not as good as another option that is objectively better.

Formula is good enough for most babies. Formula is necessary for some babies. Formula is life-saving for some babies. It's not as good as breastmilk for most babies. It's better societally for more moms to breastfeed their babies. Formula does not contain all the health benefits of breastmilk. Breastmilk is life-saving for some babies. All these things can be true together. Stating the latter things is not a commentary or judgement on anyone's individual choices.

[EmseB]

27 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree. I don’t think the little swipes are intentional, but they are still here. 

When someone says she formula fed one of her babies even though she had no medical reasons, that would imply acceptance, but when it’s followed by saying that her reason was her “own ignorance,” that pretty much implies that only an ignorant mother would ever choose to feed her baby formula unless she had a medical reason for it.

No, it doesn't imply anything. It has literally no bearing on anyone else's reasons for using formula. She used formula because she was ignorant about something, some aspect of feeding her kids. She then changed her mind based on new knowledge. This implies nothing about anyone else's reasons to use formula. Not one thing. If it's taken as a slight or a judgment or her saying that everyone who does.

If I let my toddlers watch TV and then found out that there was some research about screen time for babies, so I stopped, I would say I was ignorant of the research and so I didn't let them watch TV anymore when I learned of it. That doesn't bear any judgement on a mom who out of necessity to take a shower, take a nap, or heck, just *wanted* to let their kids watch TV and did so. People can be informed and make different choices. Some people aren't informed and change their actions when they become informed.

Saying that I changed my actions based on learning something, or saying that I was doing something because I didn't know about some aspect of it does not mean that everyone else who does that thing makes the same choices for the same reasons that I did. 

If we always extrapolate out to what someone else's choices and reasoning imply about our own choices and reasoning we're going to constantly feel judged. We, as moms, can't take what other moms do and their reasons for doing so as personal slights. We'd never stop feeling guilty about something if that were the case.

[moonflower]

re: LCs in hospitals (or nurses, for that matter), around about kid #3 I just started lying to them.  I wasn't waking my baby up every 3 hours on the dot and I wasn't writing down diaper results and times and I wasn't calculating how long I'd nursed on each breast.  All of that with my first made the first 6 weeks of nursing so miserable that I cried through every single nursing session and dreaded her waking up, which is a terrible thing to have to feel about a newborn baby.  My intuition is pretty good and we were weighing regularly anyway.  I tried at first (and still do try, each time, with each new LC or nurse) to say "oh, I'm not sure, not too long ago, about a normal nurse on each side" or "oh, 2 or 3 hours ago, pretty short nurse" or "just finished within the last hour or so, long nurse, at least half an hour" but every time they want specifics.  "So would you say from 4:15 am until 4:45 am on the right breast?" (well, no, I couldn't say that because I was nursing half asleep without my glasses on and it was pretty on and off anyway).  "Sure," I now say. 

 

[moonflower]

24 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I homeschool. I think the way I educate my kids is probably not the ideal/optimal education they could possibly get. We don't have access to what I think would be the ideal/optimal education. I cant afford it, we don't live close enough, numerous factors. I have peers who think homeschooling is actually worse than what I do have access to and have told me so.

 

 

when I was homeschooling my olders, they were definitely not getting the ideal/optimal education.  We could technically have afforded lots more field trips and outsourced classes and I could have done a lot more complicated or teacher-intensive curricula - BFSU comes to mind - but I didn't.  We paid for Lukeion, used Dolciani and Teaching Textbooks and TOPScience and nature journalling and Mystery Science and Great Courses and WWS and Apples and Pears and a zillion other things, but we didn't use the absolute best thing for each individual student for each subject.  

I spend time posting here on the forums that I could spend reading more picture books to my kids, or making my own vegan yogurt from scratch, or something.

But alas, I don't.  

 

[EmseB]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

All of those things are true, and they are all true together.  

What is not true is that formula harms babies (which has been said in this thread.)  

There is a HUGE range between "A is harmful" and "B is the best option."  The reality is that A doesn't have to cause harm in order for B to be the best option.

It depends on if you're talking about public health issues or individual babies.

Individually speaking, conventional formula would have been extremely harmful to my dairy allergic son.
If I had a kid with galactosemia, I wouldn't ever shy away from saying that breastmilk would be harmful to that kid.

It also depends on the specific thing you're talking about and what you're extrapolating from the data. Sometimes B being best is because A is harmful. You can phrase it either way, but it's silly to pretend that you're not saying the same thing only flipped around.

For example (and I'm not citing anything specific here, just using a hypothetical that I'm making up on the fly):

Breastmilk is the ideal substance for an infant to maintain a healthy gut (microbiome).
A healthy gut reduces instances of gastric problems in infancy and later in life such as celiac disease, autoimmune issues, food allergies, etc.
Formula does not maintain this same microbiome in the GI tract.

Does it do anyone any favors to say that formula, statistically, changes the gut in such a way as to fundamentally alter the natural microbiome that protects people from different gastric issues? Does it make a difference to be careful not to say that formula harms the natural microbiome that babies are born with? I would argue it doesn't, but some people might feel more sensitive about the latter.

On a public health scale, it can sound different than that, even:
If breastfeeding rates are high in society, we see less instances of celiac, Chron's, IBS, food allergies, and other gut issues.

In the end, if you need or want to use formula, none of this matters. It doesn't matter. You can say, "Yep, all that is true about guts and microbiomes, but I used formula and it was good enough for my kid." No one is objecting to that. But it doesn't make any sense to try to sugar coat so as to not use the word "harm", especially not when looking at all of this from a public health perspective.

[moonflower]

And we have public campaigns to redress some other parenting behaviors that are harmful - less electronic use, more excercise/outdoor time, less junk food. 

We don't have public campaigns for all of it, though - nothing about needless driving (but a lot about car seats), no real public campaigns about not getting divorced unless absolutely necessary (despite the stats about single motherhood), nothing really about different legal methods of discipline, although surely some are scientifically proven to have better overall results for mental/behavioral health down the line

[Arcadia]

As for moms feeling judged for bottle feeding, it’s all in the tone; condescending and/or aggressive.  I don’t need a lecture from a stranger saying that I am from China (which I am not) and is therefore ignorant  😞  

ETA:

I just wish people would have some manners, and just say nothing if they have nothing nice to say. I come from a relatively privileged background and just ignore the overstepping. My husband who comes from a financially tight background felt judged. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Arcadia

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree. I don’t think the little swipes are intentional, but they are still here. 

When someone says she formula fed one of her babies even though she had no medical reasons, that would imply acceptance, but when it’s followed by saying that her reason was her “own ignorance,” that pretty much implies that only an ignorant mother would ever choose to feed her baby formula unless she had a medical reason for it.

 

I can see why you might read it that way, but thanks for understanding it isn’t meant that way. Some people in the thread posted about significant struggles, and my issue was nothing like that and truly was ignorance, lack of information, whatever you want to call it, and tried to make that clear,Personal experience, that’s all. I do think that most moms, if they have the information and strong support, assuming no medical problems for mom or baby, will want to try breastfeeding, even if they aren’t able to continue. Some won’t, but I can’t speak for them.  I know this is a touchy issue, maybe more especially if kids are still young and you are in the midst of things. Peace. 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Penelope

[moonflower]

My actual concern about formula is not for the baby receiving it, but for the baby animal (and its mother) from whom it is taken.  That milk, assuming you're feeding animal milk-based formula, was created for another living being, either a cow or maybe a goat.  Taking it from the cow or goat to give to a human requires an act of cruelty to the baby cow and the mother cow - if it's a baby girl cow, you separate it from the mother cow well before natural weaning and raise it to be itself repeatedly impregnated and have its babies taken away and the milk it makes for the baby taken for a human baby.  If it's a baby boy cow, ideally you shoot it (because the alternative is veal).  

In either case this is not something I could do on a whim, just because I dislike breastfeeding.  

If we're going to have a discussion about the potential/actual harm of formula vs breastfeeding, I think the harm to the mother cow and baby cow waaaay overwhelms the affects on baby humans.

[EmseB]

And look, someone can always find some way to look down their nose at you.

If you think it's all unicorns and rainbows for, say, bf'ing moms doing so in public, let me tell you it is not. People compare it to toileting for goodness sake.

But in the end, why do I care? I can have an objective discussion about the pros and cons of all sorts of things without getting offended. And for people who really want to just sneer about my choices, I don't have time to worry about it.

I breastfed my kids, but I'm sure there are things that I don't do for my kids that people think are just beyond the pale. You can probably hit a nerve here or there and I'll get bent out of shape, but for the most part, I'm just fine with being the worlds okay-est mom.

[moonflower]

That is another thing I loathe about breastfeeding (there are many!) - there's this push to make breastfeeding okay in public.  I don't mind watching other people breastfeed; I think it's charming.  But for me, there is no universe in which I'm breastfeeding in public without a cover, and the covers are hard to remember to take with me and difficult to use.  I end up sitting in a bathroom stall a lot of the time and I worry that people are annoyed with me for taking too long.  At home, I hate that I have to leave my living room if someone comes over and go sit in my bedroom to nurse - it's my house!  Why can't they just stay out of it until the baby is weaned! I become somewhat irrational.  

I don't like having to do all the feedings, although I doubt DH would necessarily be doing them anyway.  But I dislike it.  I don't like the physical sensation or the dysphoria (sense of impending doom from hormone imbalance at let-down) or the way it makes me have to wear things that are either lowish cut or with buttons or just pull at my neck when I pull down my shirt.  

Boy do I miss bottles.

[moonflower]

I think it might be partially sensory overload - when I'm nursing I prefer a darkish room, with a fan or air purifier running for white noise, and no one else touching me or talking to me.  I like to read something when I'm nursing during the day to take my mind off of the nursing.

I just think no one talks about a lot of these downsides of breastfeeding when they're telling you how good it is for you and the baby.  My mom said it was better than sex!  She said it never hurt!  !!!!  It hurts!  

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, moonflower said:

That is another thing I loathe about breastfeeding (there are many!) - there's this push to make breastfeeding okay in public.  I don't mind watching other people breastfeed; I think it's charming.  But for me, there is no universe in which I'm breastfeeding in public without a cover, and the covers are hard to remember to take with me and difficult to use.  I end up sitting in a bathroom stall a lot of the time and I worry that people are annoyed with me for taking too long.  At home, I hate that I have to leave my living room if someone comes over and go sit in my bedroom to nurse - it's my house!  Why can't they just stay out of it until the baby is weaned! I become somewhat irrational.  

I don't like having to do all the feedings, although I doubt DH would necessarily be doing them anyway.  But I dislike it.  I don't like the physical sensation or the dysphoria (sense of impending doom from hormone imbalance at let-down) or the way it makes me have to wear things that are either lowish cut or with buttons or just pull at my neck when I pull down my shirt.  

 Boy do I miss bottles.

I have never bottle fed with any kind of frequency to know if I would like it better. But I do dislike the limiting wardrobe and trying to read a room on how okay it is to nurse in it. Sometimes I just get my cover out and do it because I'm showing less with the cover on than in my regular clothes! I always use a cover when out and about, but it has to be the kind that goes around my neck with a clip and has a piece of boning in it to make it bow out at the top so I can look down without holding it. A blanket works in a pinch but is much harder to use. It never occurred to me to nurse in the bathroom for the first kid, mostly because I can barely handle  going to the bathroom in a public bathroom without being skeeved out by smells and germs. My baby eating in one was not on my mind until someone "helpfully" suggested it at the mall one time. 🤢

[Catwoman]

25 minutes ago, Penelope said:

 

I can see why you might read it that way, but thanks for understanding it isn’t meant that way. Some people in the thread posted about significant struggles, and my issue was nothing like that and truly was ignorance, lack of information, whatever you want to call it, and tried to make that clear,Personal experience, that’s all. I do think that most moms, if they have the information and strong support, assuming no medical problems for mom or baby, will want to try breastfeeding, even if they aren’t able to continue. I know this is a touchy issue, maybe more especially if kids are still young and you are in the midst of things. Peace. 

 

 

I believe you are absolutely wrong about that. Will some moms want to try it? Sure, definitely. Will most moms want to? I don’t think we can make that assumption, nor should we place any pressure or sense of guilt on moms who aren’t interested. There is simply no need for any mother to feel any sense of guilt about feeding her baby formula. Period. End of story. But some people won’t let it go, and that makes it very hard on moms who simply have no interest in breastfeeding — and there are a LOT of moms who have no interest.

Not referring to you here because you haven’t been pushy about it, but I don’t understand why women feel it is any of their business how other women choose to feed their babies.  I’m 55 years old and my ds is 19, so I am long past being in the midst of any of this, but I do hear the young moms I know complain about having been strongly pressured into breastfeeding their babies and being made to feel like they are terrible mothers if they don’t at least try it. I think that is a terrible thing to do to a new mother. 

I can understand asking a new mom if she’s interested in breastfeeding her baby or asking her if she would like more information about it, but the moment that new mom says, “No, thank you,” it’s time to politely wish her and her new baby all the best, and then walk away. It’s her baby and her decision, and hard-sell and scare tactics are way out of line.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Catwoman
I can’t type a single post without at least one typo!

[Penelope]

22 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I believe you are absolutely wrong about that. Will some moms want to try it? Sure, definitely. Will most moms want to? I don’t think we can make that assumption, nor should we place any pressure or sense of guilt on moms who aren’t interested. There is simply no need for any mother to feel any sense of guilt about feeding her baby formula. Period. End of story. But some people won’t let it go, and that makes it very hard on moms who simply have no interest in breastfeeding — and there are a LOT of moms who have no interest.

It might be true in the US that most moms wouldn’t want to, but the reason I think what you bolded is because I have read studies from other countries where they do have more baby-friendly policies and support for new moms and have very high breastfeeding initiation rates. Something like 90% is what I remember, but that might not be exactly right. A majority, though. 

 

Just found that the CDC breastfeeding report 2016 says “

Highlights from the 2016 Breastfeeding Report Card show:

• Among infants born in 2013, 4 of 5 (81.1 percent) started out breastfeeding. This high percentage of babies who start out breastfeeding shows that most mothers want to breastfeed and are trying to do so.
• More than half (51.8 percent) of infants were breastfeeding at 6 months.”

 

[EmseB]

10 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I believe you are absolutely wrong about that. Will some moms want to try it? Sure, definitely. Will most moms want to? I don’t think we can make that assumption, nor should we place any pressure or sense of guilt on moms who aren’t interested. There is simply no need for any mother to feel any sense of guilt about feeding her baby formula. Period. End of story. But some people won’t let it go, and that makes it very hard on moms who simply have no interest in breastfeeding — and there are a LOT of moms who have no interest.

Not referring to you here because you haven’t been pushy about it, but I don’t understand why women feel it is any of their business how other women choose to feed their babies.  I’m 55 years old and my ds is 19, so I am long past being in the midst of any of this, but I do hear the young moms I know complain about having been strongly pressured into breastfeeding their babies and being made to feel like they are terrible mothers if they don’t at least try it. I think that is a terrible thing to do to a new mother. 

I can understand asking a new mom if she’s interested in breastfeeding her baby or asking her if she would like more information about it, but the moment that new mom says, “No, thank you,” it’s time to politely wish her and her new baby all the best, and then walk away. It’s her baby and her decision, and hard-sell and scare tactics are way out of line.

🤷‍♀️ All of this works both ways, Cat. It's not formula-feeding moms who have a monopoly on being shamed about something. One of the peds I had tried to pressure me into formula feeding. At best, the others have been ambivalent or downright ignorant about it (we move a lot so I've dealt with 5 or 6 different pediatricians, none of which have been helpfully, usefully supportive or knowledable about breastfeeding nutrition or issues). Trust me when I say you haven't felt like a terrible mom until someone threatens you with admitting your baby into the hospital for FTT because you ask to continue to try breastfeeding and ask for resources. Being scoffed at for asking about possible nipple confusion. Being looked at as if you have three heads because you feed your baby in a food court at the mall. It's all out there. There's not much anyone can do about any of that. If someone is overly intrusive about any issue, what do you do? Is it terrible to shame new moms? Yes! I think we all agree on that.

IRL have heard moms say they absolutely will not try to breastfeed for whatever reasons they have, and you're right, it's none of my business. Even if I do happen to think personally every baby deserves for their moms to at least try (there are a whole host of issues where I think that what I want to do or don't want to do is irrelevant in the face of what's best for my kids, unfortunately for me). I would never say that to anyone who didn't ask specifically for my opinion. But in reality, most of the stuff I've posted here, in a discussion about the pros, cons, and issues surrounding breastfeeding are not things that come up in everyday conversation, or things that I would say to a new mom or any mom unless they asked and I knew very specifically they wanted the information I had to give. But since this is a discussion group...that's what's going on. On the other hand, in an objective discussion about bf'ing, not every fact or facet or even opinion is a judgement on formula feeding moms. How would anyone ever discuss issues if that were the case?

Cat, I've seen many discussions on this board where you take it as a matter of course that you provide X, Y, or Z for your son that other people find unnecessary or unattainable or just something they don't want to do for their kids for whatever reason. Surely, surely you're not judging all those other moms as inferior for not providing what you do for your son? Surely your intent is not to shame them if you state the things you do for your kid and why you think it's best or even advocate for your position as something you think is best for kids in general?

[moonflower]

 

8 minutes ago, EmseB said:

🤷‍♀️ All of this works both ways, Cat. It's not formula-feeding moms who have a monopoly on being shamed about something. One of the peds I had tried to pressure me into formula feeding. At best, the others have been ambivalent or downright ignorant about it (we move a lot so I've dealt with 5 or 6 different pediatricians, none of which have been helpfully, usefully supportive or knowledable about breastfeeding nutrition or issues). Trust me when I say you haven't felt like a terrible mom until someone threatens you with admitting your baby into the hospital for FTT because you ask to continue to try breastfeeding and ask for resources. Being scoffed at for asking about possible nipple confusion. Being looked at as if you have three heads because you feed your baby in a food court at the mall. It's all out there. There's not much anyone can do about any of that. If someone is overly intrusive about any issue, what do you do? Is it terrible to shame new moms? Yes! I think we all agree on that.

IRL have heard moms say they absolutely will not try to breastfeed for whatever reasons they have, and you're right, it's none of my business. Even if I do happen to think personally every baby deserves for their moms to at least try (there are a whole host of issues where I think that what I want to do or don't want to do is irrelevant in the face of what's best for my kids, unfortunately for me). I would never say that to anyone who didn't ask specifically for my opinion. But in reality, most of the stuff I've posted here, in a discussion about the pros, cons, and issues surrounding breastfeeding are not things that come up in everyday conversation, or things that I would say to a new mom or any mom unless they asked and I knew very specifically they wanted the information I had to give. But since this is a discussion group...that's what's going on. On the other hand, in an objective discussion about bf'ing, not every fact or facet or even opinion is a judgement on formula feeding moms. How would anyone ever discuss issues if that were the case?

Cat, I've seen many discussions on this board where you take it as a matter of course that you provide X, Y, or Z for your son that other people find unnecessary or unattainable or just something they don't want to do for their kids for whatever reason. Surely, surely you're not judging all those other moms as inferior for not providing what you do for your son? Surely your intent is not to shame them if you state the things you do for your kid and why you think it's best or even advocate for your position as something you think is best for kids in general?

 

personally I agree, actually

but I don't see this conversation around many other things

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to not get an epidural"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to not expose them to screens before age 2"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to leave them home when going out for a non-necessary reason"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to be a SAHM and quit work/career so she can avoid daycare"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to endure a very difficult marriage because single parenthood is so detrimental to both mother and child"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to lose excess weight before pregnancy to make gestational diabetes less likely"

"every child deserves for their moms to at least try to homeschool when in a poor performing school district"

"every child deserves for their moms to at least try to not eat fast food (ever)"

etc.

Edited May 11, 2019 by moonflower

[rebcoola]

I am breastfeeding my third and I have been incredible lucky with the Hospitals & LC's apparently.  2/3 of my kids have been triple fed in the beginning.  My first was tough but we had a wonderful hospital I actually had kidney stones at 36wks and was on morphine when my water broke.  Oldest dd was born healthy but soo sleepy their was no alert period really we put her on the breast everytime she opened her eyes for 24hrs.  She continued to be sleepy and developed jaundice.  Her latch was pretty good but was too sleepy to get well fed LC watched us feed than set up the pump for me had me pump, while she and DH finger fed the baby formula, than I finger fed her what little I pumped.  The LC's continued to be there for 1 feed a day plus as needed while in the hospital plus 2 visits post partum were included.  The triple feeding was horrible but it was temporary.  Third DD was a less severe version but still need the triple feed though she took  bottles for her feeds.  It was hard but again temporary.  BF is never been a joyful fun thing for me but its worked and I am real about it with people.  I am also real that all my babies have gotten pumped milk and formula occasionally through out their first year when it made our lives easier.  All 3 hospitals I have been at have had formula available but none have given free formula samples.  I don't know what the answer is because breast is best but I have seen women kill themselves and harm their babies in effort to do whats best. 

[Mergath]

4 hours ago, Penelope said:

 

You are welcome to disagree, but this isn’t a debate citing sources back and forth. That’s just silly. The weight of the evidence suggests formula feeding is, on balance, inferior to breastfeeding. You can find numerous reviews by many reputable health organizations around the world by googling it if you really want sources or expert opinions. You saying it or citing a few sources or just not reading all of the available evidence doesn’t make your opinion so, and neither does me doing the same. It’s a discussion. 

Saying that there is a difference is not demonizing a different choice. It is just an objective statistical difference, not the same thing as taking about individual cases. We all make choices from time to time that are not the “best” by some objective standard, because it isn’t a perfect ideal world and best isn’t available to all of us all of the time. Examples given earlier plus others: education, food sources, pollutants in particular environments, knowledgeable medical specialists, the list goes on and on. That doesn’t change the reality that sometimes, one option is likely a little bit better than something else.

 

You misread my post. I said that it looks like adding it isn’t having the same effects of getting it from breast milk. Maybe it’s still being looked at. If I were using formula at the present time, I’d want it to have DHA. I took some extra DHA when I was nursing my kids, but I don’t really know if that did any good either. I suspect not anything significant. Sometimes we don’t have enough information to say and err on the side of best thinking at the time, while trying to balance that and think ahead about potential unintended consequences.

 

Citing sources when asked is silly? If you're going to make an outlandish argument like "Formula feeding causes harm to babies," you'd better have some sources to back it up if you expect anyone to take you seriously. Because I've never seen a single health organization say that formula is hurting babies in the developed world. Science isn't decided on the gut feelings of homeschooling moms.

[moonflower]

7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

These are kinda things I think and practice myself so....at least I'm not a hypocrite around breastfeeding as a 'special case' ? 

 

 

I also think and practice these things (except the epidural), which is probably why I thought of them, I'm just saying you don't see nearly as much or in some cases any societal push for those potentially harmful or less than ideal things as you do with breastfeeding (at least in my experience, middle class nonreligious white midwest USA).

 

[Mergath]

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

I like anecdotes and it is fine if people make decisions based largely on them. We all do it to greater or lesser degrees. Part of being human.

Not the same thing as studying public health issues among larger groups and looking at the numbers. Yes, there are problems inherent to this, too. We aren’t going to get all the answers we’d like. Information is incomplete, sometimes later partially or completely contradicted. But people do deserve the information available when making their choices. When the choice is made, there shouldn’t be shaming, but rather support. Babies get fed, the world moves on. But there are always new moms and new babies who need the information. That doesn’t end because someone had to or simply wanted to use formula and for whatever reason doesn’t feel great about it (even though I don’t think it is worth any mom’s time feeling bad about something like that).  One of my kids got some formula, not because of any medical issues but just because of my ignorance. I don’t think that was great, but of course I dont think that child’s health is ruined. I do understand how someone who drove themselves crazy trying to breastfeed and still ended up not being able to would have a hard time with a message of Breast is Best. I am sure in their place I would think that obnoxious, too.  But I also think expecting parents deserve honest information about their options. It is probably hard for health professionals to find a message that is going to resonate with everyone and still share the information.

 

I think causes harm vs. health promoting is semantics. When the norm is one thing, then lacking that thing can potentially cause harm. You can say vegetables are health-promoting, or you can say that the lack of vegetables in your diet can result in disease. It’s how you look at it. You are right that we probably know more about direct harm from smoking.  I don’t think they can be compared. I am not saying formula is anything like smoking, no way.   Possibility of harm does not mean definite harm but is better stated as “increased risks” of certain things. 

 

Whose norm? Evolutionary norms? Biological norms? Because as far as deciding what's healthiest for our bodies, we still can't agree. Cultural norms? Obviously problematic when discussing what mothers "should" do irt breastfeeding. 

Breastfeeding certainly comes with "increased risks," as well. Anemia isn't at all uncommon among exclusively breastfed babies because breastmilk doesn't have as much iron as formula. Since you like anecdotes so much, my older dd was formula fed, and her iron levels were amazing. My younger dd (twenty months old and still breastfeeding) had a fairly severe case of anemia that required aggressive iron supplementation, which ended up permanently staining her baby teeth. 

If a mother has significant levels of lead and mercury in her body, that gets passed on to the baby via breastmilk. Boobs do not magically filter out heavy metals. However, formula is FDA regulated. I can go online and read test results for heavy metals in baby formula, then choose the brand that tested the best. I can get organic formula if I want it. Good luck doing that with breastmilk. 

Everything has some "possibility of harm." Even breastfeeding. Parents need to make the best choice they can based on their current situation, and everyone's situation is different. 

[Murphy101]

48 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I believe you are absolutely wrong about that. Will some moms want to try it? Sure, definitely. Will most moms want to? I don’t think we can make that assumption, nor should we place any pressure or sense of guilt on moms who aren’t interested. There is simply no need for any mother to feel any sense of guilt about feeding her baby formula. Period. End of story. But some people won’t let it go, and that makes it very hard on moms who simply have no interest in breastfeeding — and there are a LOT of moms who have no interest.

Not referring to you here because you haven’t been pushy about it, but I don’t understand why women feel it is any of their business how other women choose to feed their babies.  I’m 55 years old and my ds is 19, so I am long past being in the midst of any of this, but I do hear the young moms I know complain about having been strongly pressured into breastfeeding their babies and being made to feel like they are terrible mothers if they don’t at least try it. I think that is a terrible thing to do to a new mother. 

I can understand asking a new mom if she’s interested in breastfeeding her baby or asking her if she would like more information about it, but the moment that new mom says, “No, thank you,” it’s time to politely wish her and her new baby all the best, and then walk away. It’s her baby and her decision, and hard-sell and scare tactics are way out of line.

 

In countries with better social support, family policies, and a strong pro bf-ing education initiative - MOST moms do breastfeed at least for a couple months.  So sure, I can see how if we had similar we would see similiar results.

Now, if a woman has all that and still wants or needs to formula feed, then good for her.

I'm not against formula so much as for breastfeeding.

For my third born, formula was a harmful and miserable experience.  For two others that I supplemented with, formula was great and meant I was able to deal with some high stress situations without worry about baby feedings.  I'm not against formula.  There I see a genuine need for it that has saved baby lives for decades and I'm super glad for that.  I see formula kept behind locked cases in our Walmart and it pisses me off.  Anyone who needs to steal formula should just be given the formula.  It's for babies.  No one should need to steal to feed their babies in America.

But yeah, breastfeeding overall has benefits that can't be beat in normal healthy circumstances, so much so, that it's a social and medical good to be encouraged.

[mumto2]

5 hours ago, Terabith said:

Okay, question for StellaM or anyone else knowledgeable about breastfeeding, because this has literally been bothering me for 15 years.  

What do you do when a baby won't wake up to nurse?  

Anna had a somewhat traumatic birth.  Her heart rate dropped during pushing and they did a vacuum extraction to get her out quickly.  Her apgar at birth was 2.  She spent a couple days in the NICU, but the diagnosis was "transient tachypnea of the newborn," which pretty much means that she didn't feel like breathing.  My kid was literally too lazy to breathe.  I pumped, but they gave her formula (against my wishes) along with colostrum from bottles in the NICU.  I was worried about nipple confusion, but it was a military hospital, and I had very little say.  I had lots of support....my mother and my MIL had both nursed back in the late 70's/ 80's, even when it was very uncommon.  I had read books.  I'd taken a class.  I'd been to La Leche League.  I begged for a lactation consultant, but the advice I was given was literally to put a bottle nipple over my nipple.  Which seemed insane to me.  I tried nipple shields.  Anna had no problems latching, but she wouldn't stay awake.  Even after we got home, put her to the breast and she would instantly fall asleep.  We would strip her down, change her diaper, flick the soles of her feet, put cold cans of coke from the fridge on her naked back, jostle her, make noise....  NOTHING would rouse her.  She was getting zero calories, and the less she ate, the sleepier she was.  I took her to a competent LC, who agreed she wasn't getting anywhere's near enough milk (almost none), but her latch was good, and all she told me was I had to keep her awake.  But I couldn't.  I didn't know what to do.  She was losing alarming amounts of weight and not making enough wet diapers.  Neither my mother nor my MIL knew what to do, because the issue wasn't supply (I had enough milk to feed triplets); it wasn't let down (that was fine; not too fast or too slow); it wasn't latch, which was fine.  *I* was apparently born to breastfeed, but my child simply WOULDN'T.  I became hysterical.  We tried pumping and feeding her from bottles in order to try to get enough calories into her for her to stay awake.  She had zero problems drinking from the bottle; it was fast enough that she could take in the milk before she fell asleep again.  But it didn't give her enough energy to be able to subsequently nurse.  I tried REPEATEDLY for months to put her on the breast, but it never worked.  As soon as she got to the boob, she fell asleep, and nothing would rouse her.  She was an amazingly deep sleeper all through her toddler years.  She slept prodigious amounts and very deeply, which lulled us into thinking this baby parenting thing was simple.  

So, we gave up.  I pumped milk and she got nothing but breastmilk for six months, when I got pregnant and my supply tanked.  But it's bothered me ever since then.  What did we do wrong?  Why didn't it work?  I nursed her sister for 3.5 years.  It's literally the thing I am most proud of in my life, and it breaks my heart I couldn't do it for Anna.  Of course, if I had, I probably wouldn't have gotten pregnant with Catherine, so I guess I'm grateful for that, too.  I dunno.  I just wish I knew why it didn't work.  It IS exactly like the c section rate things.  We know they're too high, but everyone thinks theirs was necessary, and I'm not going to argue with them.  We found out when she was a toddler that she had some oral motor issues, so maybe that was part of the problem?  But her latch was good, and she had no problems drinking from a bottle.  But I wish I knew the answer to that mystery.  

You did exactly what I would have advised when I was working with my moms.  You did a great job pumping for 6 months.

While all moms may not want to BF, many who do want to BF lack the support they need to make it through the first couple of weeks.  I feel deeply for those women and haven’t lost my desire to help. While I don’t walk through the mall soliciting new moms I have on occasion offered my phone number to a few pregnant woman to whom my connection is pretty marginal (normally via  church and home ed groups) in case they need support after the baby arrives.  I still receive an occasional call but did go into forced retirement when we moved to England....nothing similar to the program I worked with exists there.  

I suspect I am also being seen as passing judgement but imo one of the great wonders of BF is that mom is making the food for the baby that grew within her body.  Mom can adjust the contents of her milk in a way that appears to me to be easier on an allergic baby then running the gauntlet of formulas to sometimes land on one where the cost is huge. I have heard of cases where dilution because of cost occurs.  I have helped a lot of gals go through the allergy lists and referred them to others in my program.  We always solved it. 

 

[moonflower]

20 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Natural births, you do. And there's good reason for that, as we know that there's an intervention cascade effect, where once you introduce one intervention, more are likely to follow. Screens too, I see a lot of moms sharing information re guidelines for under 2's.

I think some of the things on your list have more sturdy evidence bases than others.  

But also, how many fronts can moms run at one time ? It's still an uphill struggle with breastfeeding awareness and support. Not enough time in the day to run multiple volunteer campaigns, unless it's drawn from a completely different cohort (and of course, some of the above are highly correlated with breastfeeding culture).

 

I get a lot less pressure to have a natural birth (read: no pressure) from the medical establishment than I do to breastfeed.

when I come into the hospital in labor, no one says, "You're doing this without drugs, right?"  They do all say, "you're breastfeeding, right?"

It is possible that this is just me, though, as after my unintentional natural birth with #3 I have been Very Vehement Indeed about wanting an epidural Right Away.  

[EmseB]

41 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

 

personally I agree, actually

but I don't see this conversation around many other things

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to not get an epidural"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to not expose them to screens before age 2"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to leave them home when going out for a non-necessary reason"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to be a SAHM and quit work/career so she can avoid daycare"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to endure a very difficult marriage because single parenthood is so detrimental to both mother and child"

"every baby deserves for their moms to at least try to lose excess weight before pregnancy to make gestational diabetes less likely"

"every child deserves for their moms to at least try to homeschool when in a poor performing school district"

"every child deserves for their moms to at least try to not eat fast food (ever)"

etc.

I think it depends on the circles you (general) travel in because I've heard variations on all of this from different places. To be honest, though, outside of the internet and the doctor's office and maaaybe church for one or two of these things, I don't hear that much about any of them unless I'm deliberately searching out content related to a subject or opinions. And IRL, if I know someone really disagrees with me about something (vaccines are a big one) i avoid the subject unless someone asks me what I think.

[Penelope]

42 minutes ago, Mergath said:

 

Citing sources when asked is silly? If you're going to make an outlandish argument like "Formula feeding causes harm to babies," you'd better have some sources to back it up if you expect anyone to take you seriously. Because I've never seen a single health organization say that formula is hurting babies in the developed world. Science isn't decided on the gut feelings of homeschooling moms.

 

Again, if you are really interested, google the position statements of the Academy or Breastfeeding Medicine, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the World Health Organization, the American Academy of Family Physicians. Plenty of links within those. Yes in the developed world. Way too many to list. Not my job to convince anybody. Outlandish argument. That made me smile. 

[moonflower]

17 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I think this thread absolutely demonstrates what an uphill battle we face normalising breastfeeding. 

Breastfeeding itself is taken as an aggressive act of judgement. 

Positivity about breastfeeding is taken as an act of judgement.

Sharing the benefits of breastfeeding to child and mother is taken as an act of judgement.

The only 'acceptable' way to talk about breastfeeding is to disavow it - I did it but I didn't like it, I did it but not for long, I did it but I wish I hadn't had to, I did it, but of course I used formula too. 

It's not acceptable to talk about breastfeeding vs formula from a public health capacity, because that's judging. 

What a truly hostile environment for a woman who wants to breastfeed, and is able to breastfeed.

That attitude is almost 'fine, but don't dare tell us about it and don't dare have a positive experience with associated health benefits, because that's just rude.'

 

I do not, in my life or in this thread, see a hostile environment for a woman who wants to breastfeed and is able to breastfeed.  That's so strange that we see the same thread so differently!  I see hostility toward formula feeding, though.

I don't talk about breastfeeding negatively because I see it as acceptable - I really do dislike doing it.  I have a hormonal thing that makes it quite quite miserable every time my milk lets down for the first couple of months (and all the sensory things I mentioned besides).  

I do think that animal milk formula is so morally reprehensible that I'm willing to breastfeed until I can wean to water/food anyway, but I dislike the activity itself.

From a public health capacity, sure, breastfeeding just makes a lot more sense.  But then, so do a lot of things that we don't have as much judgment about, imo.

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

I get a lot less pressure to have a natural birth (read: no pressure) from the medical establishment than I do to breastfeed.

when I come into the hospital in labor, no one says, "You're doing this without drugs, right?"  They do all say, "you're breastfeeding, right?"

It is possible that this is just me, though, as after my unintentional natural birth with #3 I have been Very Vehement Indeed about wanting an epidural Right Away.  

I've had natural births on purpose with all my kids and I think hospital personnel would have vastly preferred for me to get the drugs.

They always ask if I'm breastfeeding or formula feeding but never seem to assume either way. Only one hospital was pro-bf. The other two didn't care either way.

[Catwoman]

26 minutes ago, mumto2 said:

You did exactly what I would have advised when I was working with my moms.  You did a great job pumping for 6 months.

While all moms may not want to BF, many who do want to BF lack the support they need to make it through the first couple of weeks.  I feel deeply for those women and haven’t lost my desire to help. While I don’t walk through the mall soliciting new moms I have on occasion offered my phone number to a few pregnant woman to whom my connection is pretty marginal (normally via  church and home ed groups) in case they need support after the baby arrives.  I still receive an occasional call but did go into forced retirement when we moved to England....nothing similar to the program I worked with exists there.  

I suspect I am also being seen as passing judgement but imo one of the great wonders of BF is that mom is making the food for the baby that grew within her body.  Mom can adjust the contents of her milk in a way that appears to me to be easier on an allergic baby then running the gauntlet of formulas to sometimes land on one where the cost is huge. I have heard of cases where dilution because of cost occurs.  I have helped a lot of gals go through the allergy lists and referred them to others in my program.  We always solved it. 

 

 

I don’t see you passing judgment at all! I admire what you’re doing. You’re educating women and offering them your help, without trying to pressure them or make them feel badly if they make a different choice. 

[moonflower]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

I've had natural births on purpose with all my kids and I think hospital personnel would have vastly preferred for me to get the drugs.

They always ask if I'm breastfeeding or formula feeding but never seem to assume either way. Only one hospital was pro-bf. The other two didn't care either way.

 

Mine would have vastly preferred me to get the drugs for both of my unintentional natural births, too - during transition I become a wee bit unhinged.  And loud.

All 5 hospitals I was at were pro-BF although none of them were actually helpful at all in that regard.

[moonflower]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Well, yeah, assuming a new mom will b/feed is part of a hospital being b/feeding friendly. It's normalizing the practice. Is that pressure ? Or just making sure the most ideal option is presented first ?

I had all of mine in a birthing centre, where there were no drugs, so they did actually check that I hadn't changed my mind, decided on drugs and needed transferring up to the ward. 

 

Well again, in the hospital there was no attempt to normalize the practice of a drug-free birth or presenting the most ideal option (health-wise, I guess, at least for the baby) first in that regard.

That might just be a stats thing, though  - I think a much larger proportion of women have epidurals in labor than formula feed.

[Mergath]

9 minutes ago, Penelope said:

 

Again, if you are really interested, google the position statements of the Academy or Breastfeeding Medicine, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the World Health Organization, the American Academy of Family Physicians. Plenty of links within those. Yes in the developed world. Way too many to list. Not my job to convince anybody. Outlandish argument. That made me smile. 

 

Their position is that breastfeeding is better. NOT that formula is harmful to babies. 

Kale is better from a nutritional perspective than strawberries. That doesn't mean feeding my children strawberries is harming them.

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Like what?

I dont understand why you wouldnt just google "public health benefits of brestfeeding" to find this info? Google even excerpts the top result for you do you don't even have to click an additional link if you don't have time.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26792873/

[Catwoman]

25 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I think this thread absolutely demonstrates what an uphill battle we face normalising breastfeeding. 

Breastfeeding itself is taken as an aggressive act of judgement. 

Positivity about breastfeeding is taken as an act of judgement.

Sharing the benefits of breastfeeding to child and mother is taken as an act of judgement.

The only 'acceptable' way to talk about breastfeeding is to disavow it - I did it but I didn't like it, I did it but not for long, I did it but I wish I hadn't had to, I did it, but of course I used formula too. 

It's not acceptable to talk about breastfeeding vs formula from a public health capacity, because that's judging. 

What a truly hostile environment for a woman who wants to breastfeed, and is able to breastfeed.

That attitude is almost 'fine, but don't dare tell us about it and don't dare have a positive experience with associated health benefits, because that's just rude.'

 

Seriously?

Not a single person on this thread has said that breastfeeding is bad.

Not a single person on this thread has suggested that being positive about breastfeeding is bad.

Not a single person on this thread has said that no one should offer information about breastfeeding to pregnant women and new moms.

Not a single person on this thread has said that anyone should disavow having breastfed their babies.

And most certainly, not a single person on this thread has said that women shouldn’t dare talk about their positive breastfeeding experiences.

You are being overly dramatic.

What several of us HAVE said is that it is not supportive of other women to act as though the only acceptable reason for a new mom not breastfeeding is if she has a medical reason that makes her incapable of breastfeeding. 

What we have also said is that breastfeeding is a personal choice for every mother to make on her own, without being shamed or pressured by anyone, because it’s no one else’s business how a mom decides to feed her baby.

No one here has said they are anti-breastfeeding. 

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, Mergath said:

 

Their position is that breastfeeding is better. NOT that formula is harmful to babies. 

Kale is better from a nutritional perspective than strawberries. That doesn't mean feeding my children strawberries is harming them.

At a public health level, were talking about obesity, diabetes, breast and ovarian cancer, among other things. A rise in those things is harmful for a lot of reasons. 

Kale and strawberries arent really an apt comparison because we're talking about a baby's entire diet, their entire nutritional intake for the first six months of life and what that means for them long term individually, and in an aggregate sense for the entire population. A better comparison would be kids who only eat a diet of processed foods and kids who only eat a diet of non-processed foods.

[moonflower]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Hmm.

Not really getting the breastfeeding positive vibe. 

Re overly dramatic - imagine me saying that to a mom who feels judged for formula feeding.  How rude.

 

That's so weird, I totally get the breastfeeding positive vibe!

Not necessarily an "I enjoy breastfeeding" vibe or even an "I'm so glad I was able to breastfeed" vibe, but certainly a "I know breastfeeding is better for my baby so I did it even though I hated it [/it was difficult/I had to supplement/I had to express or pump/I eventually gave up]."  

A few people have said "I know formula feeding is fine for babies so I wasn't upset that I couldn't or didn't breastfeed" but I'd say on the whole the consensus mirrors the party line (that is to say, breast is best)

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Hmm.

Not really getting the breastfeeding positive vibe. 

Re overly dramatic - imagine me saying that to a mom who feels judged for formula feeding.  How rude.

 

Sorry, but you were the one who was making all of the ridiculously outlandish assertions about the people who have posted in this thread. I was responding directly to your statements.

Just because some of us believe that formula is a good option for moms who don’t want to breastfeed their babies, does not mean we don’t believe that breastfeeding is a good option for other moms. 

It is possible to be positive about BOTH breastfeeding and formula-feeding. Why should we be negative about either option? Both are just fine.

[moonflower]

 

7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

OK.

Well, I can only talk for myself, but the reason I am not advocating for natural birth as the ideal option for babies, is because the amount of aggro I'd get is way more extreme than even being pro-breastfeeding. I wouldn't subject myself to that conversation. Even for the public good. 

One area of advocacy I'm aware of re birth is with VBACs. I had a friend involved in campaigns to educate medical professionals about the actual risks and benefits of VBAC, and the safety of trialling labor etc.

 

That's true, I haven't had a C-section so I don't hear about VBACs but I know they are more popular recently.

I do think telling women they should make more of an effort to endure labor without meds for the health of their babies is likely to get even more negative pushback than telling them that breastfeeding is ideal.  Presumably this is because labor is a lot more painful than breastfeeding 🙂

Although I agree with you that at a societal level it would be nice if there were more support for lower-intervention maternal care, esp. as outcomes are better; as a personal matter, I'm taking the interventions.

[moonflower]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

 

This thread is all over the place.

"Breast is best, but don't say it. No, breast isn't best, there's no evidence it's best. It is best but don't say it so loud. No, there aren't any benefits! Tell me that formula is good enough. Tell me that formula is good enough. Breast is best but just don't say it!"

Idk. I find the whole thing weird. Formula is the technological innovation, not breastfeeding. Breastfeeding has kept the species going for millenia. It's up to the formula proponents to prove there is no harm, there are no public health implications, to replacing breastfeeding with formula, not the other way round!

 

Hah, you're such a conservative!  🙂

I think you can say breast is best.  I don't think there's a reason to not say it if it's true.  I just think that there are a lot of other things that are also best that we don't focus on the way we focus on breastfeeding.

[Catwoman]

Just now, StellaM said:

 

Still not getting the love.

 

 

Then you are being intentionally obtuse.

But I guess I’m not surprised, if you truly believe what you posted earlier when you said, “Breastfeeding itself is taken as an aggressive act of judgment.” 

Because that’s an incredibly extreme opinion, and I can honestly say I have never heard anyone say anything like that.

How could breastfeeding a baby be viewed as “an aggressive act of judgment?” I can’t even make sense of that statement.

[moonflower]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

lol, yeah, more than I'd like to admit.

Why do you think the bolded is ?

I don't disagree. 

 

Hmm, hard to say.  Maybe it is a pretty easy sell, actually, which is part of why it's caught on.  You're not asking women to undergo level 8-10 pain (normally) like with natural childbirth, BFing is actually easier and cheaper for the majority of women than bottle feeding (unlike asking women to take care of their own elderly relatives instead of institutionalizing them, which is a huge burden, or stay home from a desired career to avoid daycare, a significant life change), it rhymes.

 

[moonflower]

You'd think someone would have done careful population studies about these things, controlling for socioeconomic status, race, religion, diet, what have you.

[moonflower]

Hilariously, I am breastfeeding as I argue in this thread!  She is 1 and she has teeth.  I am good at nursing an older baby while typing.  I have my air purifier going and the typing distracts me from the nursing so it is all good.

 

[mumto2]

18 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

BF babies are *less likely* to be obese.  

That actually comes around to the point of the video.  Once you account for other factors, is it *actually* the formula causing the obesity?

It is my understanding that the “less likely” is tied more with the act of nursing and the infant being able to eat at a more leisurely pace,  control the intake, to stop when full.  Breasts naturally feed the nutrition rich fore milk first and somewhat quickly,  the hind milk comes slower so babies work a bit more and is less satisfying.  The child learns from the start what full is and the tenancy to overeat does not really follow them to adulthood.  With bottles it is possible to consume a huge amount very quickly in comparison and that is thought to actually promote overeating throughout life.  

[EmseB]

Are we really arguing, in 2019, with everything we know about the human body, breastmilk, and nutrition in general, along with all the things we know that we don't know about all of the above...that a processed food made to imitate human milk is functionally the same as actual human milk and the latter carries no significant health benefits (individual or population-wise) over the former? 

Edited May 12, 2019 by EmseB

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

I think this thread absolutely demonstrates what an uphill battle we face normalising breastfeeding. 

Breastfeeding itself is taken as an aggressive act of judgement. 

Positivity about breastfeeding is taken as an act of judgement.

Sharing the benefits of breastfeeding to child and mother is taken as an act of judgement.

The only 'acceptable' way to talk about breastfeeding is to disavow it - I did it but I didn't like it, I did it but not for long, I did it but I wish I hadn't had to, I did it, but of course I used formula too. 

It's not acceptable to talk about breastfeeding vs formula from a public health capacity, because that's judging. 

What a truly hostile environment for a woman who wants to breastfeed, and is able to breastfeed.

That attitude is almost 'fine, but don't dare tell us about it and don't dare have a positive experience with associated health benefits, because that's just rude.'

Agreeing with Cat: I don't think any of these things, and I don't think anyone else here does either. 

p.s. Enjoy your brunch. I ❤️brunch! And Happy Mother's Day. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by MercyA

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

This thread is all over the place.

"Breast is best, but don't say it. No, breast isn't best, there's no evidence it's best. It is best but don't say it so loud. No, there aren't any benefits! Tell me that formula is good enough. Tell me that formula is good enough. Breast is best but just don't say it!"

Idk. I find the whole thing weird. Formula is the technological innovation, not breastfeeding. Breastfeeding has kept the species going for millenia. It's up to the formula proponents to prove there is no harm, there are no public health implications, to replacing breastfeeding with formula, not the other way round!

You don't hear the condescending tone in this post? This is what we are talking about.

Edited May 12, 2019 by MercyA