Video says:Breast is best research is faulty

[Arcadia]

Regarding obesity, my paternal side of the family has at least a hundred people (cousins, their spouses, their kids, their grandkids) that is exclusively formula feed and underweight (and at least middle income so grocery cost isn’t a factor). No one interviewed my relatives *sigh* My maternal side is majority underweight and formula fed too. My husband and kids are underweight too.

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

No.   We aren't arguing that.

 

We are arguing that it's good enough.  

That's not what it sounded like you were getting at above?

I don't know what that means, what the standard is for "good enough" statistically, public health wise, or even individually. Is anyone disagreeing that formula is preferable in situations where a mom can't or won't breastfeed? I mean, there are a lot of diets that are good enough to sustain someone that public health officials wouldn't advocate for, says the Midwestern girl brought up on ribs, hamburger helper, and fried potatoes. I have to think there's some kind of reasons that most major health organizations worldwide almost without exception have campaigns to promote breastfeeding. 

[mumto2]

17 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Regarding obesity, my paternal side of the family has at least a hundred people (cousins, their spouses, their kids, their grandkids) that is exclusively formula feed and underweight (and at least middle income so grocery cost isn’t a factor). No one interviewed my relatives *sigh* My maternal side is majority underweight and formula fed too. My husband and kids are underweight too.

I think your family is an argument for genetics! 😉

ETA.  I personally think I can see the trend in some children where I happen to know the breast verses bottle.  My Ds was an incredibly fat baby until toddlerhood.  My fil used to beg me to diet him as he glared at my breasts!  😂Ds slimmed right down and has stayed that way......my niece on the other hand was also a fat baby(bottle fed ) has struggled with her weight since age five.....in her thirties now.  My son got his off button firmly in place and she has no idea where off is naturally.   Lots of other observed examples.......I believe this is a potential side benefit not a guarantee! 😉

Edited May 12, 2019 by mumto2

[shawthorne44]

I am OK with any stance on formula/bf'ing except for the idea that "formula is best".   That is what both my mom and paternal grandmother were told and believed.  I was born in 1970, my mother had plenty of milk and stayed at home with me at least for the first year.  She weaned me cold-turkey at around a week.  My paternal grandmother was a farm wife.  She believed what she was told about breast milk being bad and that anything else was better because you could measure how much they were getting.  The 'formula' back then was cow's milk, caro syrup and something else.  

DD's pediatrician was an old guy that was anti-bf'ing.   But, he kept fairly quiet about it.   DD grew nicely on the formula-fed growth chart, so that helped.      I'm pretty sure I converted him to the benefits of pre-fold cloth diapers.  He was selling his practice and there was a new young doc in there every time we went.  He showed off DD's healthy, non-rash, no-cream butt to every young doc.  

[shawthorne44]

57 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Actually I think the video posted in the OP is really the only thing I have ever seen that has looked at what other factors are involved.  And the video specifically discusses studies that account for factors like socio-economic status, and so on.  It's incredibly difficult to study actual BF effects specifically because you can't control for all the other factors in most cases in an ethical way.  But the video as presented has been described as silly and more so even if I felt like digging up links I am not confident they wouldn't be simply discounted as silly.  

It is like the Mozart effect.   Where some study said that babies born to mothers that listened to Mozart while pregnant had a bunch of life benefits.   So, people starting putting little speakers pointing at their bellies and playing Mozart.   But, it wasn't Mozart, it was that having a mother that listens to Mozart for fun comes with a bunch of benefits.  

 

[Mergath]

I would love to read the full paper for this if anyone has access: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953614000549

[Teaching3bears]

10 hours ago, mumto2 said:

 No!  Just plain no!!!  Your children’s special needs are not your fault.  Please don’t ever think that.  Sending hugs and prayers......

A bit of trivia that goes against everything we were taught and believe......in a rural part of the Midwest breast feeding moms in the 1960’s were actually given beer to bring in their milk supplies......very large glasses of beer per my friend delivered right to her hospital bed.  I think she was there for 10 days.  She didn’t normally drink alcohol and had the nurses after her to drink it all.  I would never advise alcohol (and neither would she) but it was obviously custom.  Friend’s children and grandchildren are heathy btw.   She was cracking up at my no water bottles,  no nuts (Dd got a rash), no alcohol, no several other things.....I was obsessed. 

 

I know it's not my fault and I had a very healthy lifestyle during pregnancy and breastfeeding but I'm still wondering if my breastmilk was not all that great.  I have some chemical sensitivities.  Maybe not all breastmilk is great.  We live on a polluted planet and maybe it affects some more than others.

[EmseB]

36 minutes ago, Mergath said:

I would love to read the full paper for this if anyone has access: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953614000549

I think this is the same one.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4077166/

[maize]

8 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

Also, let’s not assume that all breast milk is equal and perfect, either. Not all new moms are eating properly

 

Dairy cows, of course, have an optimally nutritious diet...

[maize]

6 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

I know it's not my fault and I had a very healthy lifestyle during pregnancy and breastfeeding but I'm still wondering if my breastmilk was not all that great.  I have some chemical sensitivities.  Maybe not all breastmilk is great.  We live on a polluted planet and maybe it affects some more than others.

Unless you are importing baby formula from a different planet the cows that produce the milk that formula is made from are exposed the same pollutants that we humans are 🙂

 

[maize]

1 hour ago, mumto2 said:

I think your family is an argument for genetics! 😉

ETA.  I personally think I can see the trend in some children where I happen to know the breast verses bottle.  My Ds was an incredibly fat baby until toddlerhood.  My fil used to beg me to diet him as he glared at my breasts!  😂Ds slimmed right down and has stayed that way......my niece on the other hand was also a fat baby(bottle fed ) has struggled with her weight since age five.....in her thirties now.  My son got his off button firmly in place and she has no idea where off is naturally.   Lots of other observed examples.......I believe this is a potential side benefit not a guarantee! 😉

My babies are crazy off the charts chubby (one was 24lbs at his 4 month checkup) and grow into perfectly healthy normal weight kids.

My dad told me once I must produce Jersey milk--Jersey cow milk has the highest cream content 😄

Edited May 12, 2019 by maize

[Teaching3bears]

4 hours ago, EmseB said:

I have never bottle fed with any kind of frequency to know if I would like it better. But I do dislike the limiting wardrobe and trying to read a room on how okay it is to nurse in it. Sometimes I just get my cover out and do it because I'm showing less with the cover on than in my regular clothes! I always use a cover when out and about, but it has to be the kind that goes around my neck with a clip and has a piece of boning in it to make it bow out at the top so I can look down without holding it. A blanket works in a pinch but is much harder to use. It never occurred to me to nurse in the bathroom for the first kid, mostly because I can barely handle  going to the bathroom in a public bathroom without being skeeved out by smells and germs. My baby eating in one was not on my mind until someone "helpfully" suggested it at the mall one time. 🤢

Yeah, it bugs me that they put nursing rooms with public bathrooms, the germiest part of the mall! (I typed "germiest" but the spellcheck kept putting "geekiest'!)

[Teaching3bears]

3 hours ago, Mergath said:

 

If a mother has significant levels of lead and mercury in her body, that gets passed on to the baby via breastmilk. Boobs do not magically filter out heavy metals. However, formula is FDA regulated. I can go online and read test results for heavy metals in baby formula, then choose the brand that tested the best. I can get organic formula if I want it. Good luck doing that with breastmilk. 

 

How can a mother know this?  I was not tested for this when pregnant.  

[maize]

It's a super good thing that quality formula exists, I'll happily support any mom who chooses formula for their baby or resorts to formula out of necessity. Babies generally thrive on formula.

Of course human milk is usually best for human babies. And of course it is OK that our kids don't grow up with every possible best in the books--that's an unhealthy standard in an of itself and certainly not one we should judge ourselves or anyone else by. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by maize

[EmseB]

16 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I think this is the same one.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4077166/

I read the conclusion and research highlights and I can't see any definitive conclusions the authors came to other than breastfeeding is difficult in difficult circumstances and the benefits "may" not be as much a previously stated in other studies (will have to go back and read to see wjich benefits they think are overstated and how). Reading between the lines in a few places, honestly it doesn't seem that the authors are big on motherhood as a vocation in general.

[MercyA]

26 minutes ago, maize said:

Unless you are importing baby formula from a different planet the cows that produce the milk that formula is made from are exposed the same pollutants that we humans are 🙂

Not entirely; using organic formula can help reduce the amount of herbicides, pesticides, antibiotics, and hormones the baby ingests. 

[Teaching3bears]

2 hours ago, EmseB said:

Are we really arguing, in 2019, with everything we know about the human body, breastmilk, and nutrition in general, along with all the things we know that we don't know about all of the above...that a processed food made to imitate human milk is functionally the same as actual human milk and the latter carries no significant health benefits (individual or population-wise) over the former? 

That was what the video said.  It somehow bothered me that the narrator of the video was male.  Also, he kept saying "when parents breathed" instead of "mothers".  I'm all for equality but as far as I know, men can only breastfeed if it has been pumped.  why did he keep saying that?  Is this the "correct" way to talk about breastfeeding nowadays?

[maize]

6 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Not entirely; using organic formula can help reduce the amount of herbicides, pesticides, antibiotics, and hormones the baby ingests. 

Or the mother could eat organic food 🙂

[MercyA]

7 minutes ago, maize said:

Or the mother could eat organic food 🙂

Of course.

ETA: Although, I have to say, feeding my baby organic formula was infinitely easier than trying to eat a 100% organic diet myself. 🙂 

Edited May 12, 2019 by MercyA

[maize]

I went running down a bunny trail and found this investigation that turned up zero detectable differences between conventional and organic milk interesting:

http://projects.thestar.com/organic-milk/

[mumto2]

1 hour ago, Teaching3bears said:

I know it's not my fault and I had a very healthy lifestyle during pregnancy and breastfeeding but I'm still wondering if my breastmilk was not all that great.  I have some chemical sensitivities.  Maybe not all breastmilk is great.  We live on a polluted planet and maybe it affects some more than others.

Hugs,  I still don’t believe your children’s problems are related to your decision to BF,  the odds are just too remote.   I have to agree that there must be varying degrees in quality etc and the potential for chemical contamination.  That potential exists for formula too in part because most of it comes from mammals.  I hold a firm belief that quality control is not perfect ever because every single bit cannot be tested.  Recalls happen.....problems like this existhttps://www.foodsafetynews.com/2016/04/125714/  for example.  

53 minutes ago, maize said:

Unless you are importing baby formula from a different planet the cows that produce the milk that formula is made from are exposed the same pollutants that we humans are 🙂

 

Totally agree.  

Edited May 12, 2019 by mumto2

[Arcadia]

I did watch the SciShow YouTube with my kid. It has a long list of links in the info on video section. What I thought the video said was when looking at similar social economic factors, the significant difference no longer becomes significant.  

From OSU (Ohio State）https://news.osu.edu/breast-feeding-benefits-appear-to-be-overstated-according-to-study-of-siblings/

“COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study comparing siblings who were fed differently during infancy suggests that breast-feeding might be no more beneficial than bottle-feeding for 10 of 11 long-term health and well-being outcomes in children age 4 to 14.

The outlier was asthma, which was associated more with breast-feeding than with bottle-feeding.

...

Colen’s study is also rare for its look at health and education benefits of infant feeding practices for children age 4 to 14 years, beyond the more typical investigation of breast-feeding’s effects on infants and toddlers.

Federal health officials have declared breast-feeding for at least six months a national priority, which could end up stigmatizing women who can’t opt to nurse their babies, Colen said.

“I’m not saying breast-feeding is not beneficial, especially for boosting nutrition and immunity in newborns,” Colen said. “But if we really want to improve maternal and child health in this country, let’s also focus on things that can really do that in the long term – like subsidized day care, better maternity leave policies and more employment opportunities for low-income mothers that pay a living wage, for example.”

The study is published in the journal Social Science & Medicine.

Demographic differences across families that can bias studies in favor of breast-feeding include parental race, age, marital status, family income, insurance coverage, the mother’s education and employment, and whether a woman smokes or drinks during pregnancy.

“When we get more advantaged moms selecting into breast-feeding and we know those traits also will affect the health outcomes, it’s not clear what’s affecting an outcome like obesity – is it breast-feeding itself or those other background characteristics?” Colen said.

...

Colen analyzed three samples: 8,237 children, 7,319 siblings and 1,773 “discordant” sibling pairs, or children from 665 surveyed families in which at least one child was breast-fed and at least one other child was bottle-fed. The children who were differently fed in the same family represented about 25 percent of the siblings in the data.

For each sample, the researchers sought answers to two basic questions: Was at least one child breast-fed and, if so, what was the duration of breast-feeding?

The study measured 11 outcomes that are common to other studies of breast-feeding’s effects: body mass index (BMI), obesity, asthma, hyperactivity, parental attachment (secure emotional relationships between parents and child) and behavior compliance, as well as scores predicting academic achievement in vocabulary, reading recognition, math ability, intelligence and scholastic competence. Colen constructed statistical models for the analysis. 

As expected, the analyses of the samples of adults and their children across families suggested that breast-feeding resulted in better outcomes than bottle-feeding in a number of measures: BMI, hyperactivity, math skills, reading recognition, vocabulary word identification, digit recollection, scholastic competence and obesity.

When the sample was restricted to siblings who were differently fed within the same families, however, scores reflecting breast-feeding’s positive effects on 10 of the 11 indicators of child health and well-being were closer to zero and not statistically significant – meaning any differences could have occurred by chance alone.

The outlying outcome in this study was asthma; in all samples, children who were breast-fed were at higher risk for asthma, which could relate to data generated by self-reports instead of actual diagnoses.

Some examples of differing benefits: Breast-feeding’s beneficial influence on BMI decreased by 66 percent between siblings across families and siblings within families. The magnitude of the beneficial effects of breast-feeding for math, reading, vocabulary and intelligence declined by between 69 and 29 percent, respectively, when comparing data across families to data from within families.

“Instead of comparing across families we are comparing within families, completely taking into account all of those characteristics – both measured and unmeasured – that differ by family, such as parental education, household income and race/ethnicity,” Colen explained.

These same differences between samples were found in the analysis of the effects of the duration of breastfeeding.”

[EmseB]

9 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Of course.

ETA: Although, I have to say, feeding my baby organic formula was infinitely easier than trying to eat a 100% organic diet myself. 🙂 

Along the lines of the perfect being the enemy of the good, I never held myself to that standard not the least of why because I'm really not sure the cows actually are either. That and I don't buy organic because I think it's mostly a marketing gimmick, but that's a whole nother debate, lol!

(and I have to confess that until this thread, for some reason I thought you were vegan :blush:)

[MercyA]

nm 🙂 

Edited May 12, 2019 by MercyA

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

Along the lines of the perfect being the enemy of the good, I never held myself to that standard not the least of why because I'm really not sure the cows actually are either. That and I don't buy organic because I think it's mostly a marketing gimmick, but that's a whole nother debate, lol!

(and I have to confess that until this thread, for some reason I thought you were vegan :blush:)

I used to be vegan except for eggs. I'd love to still be, but I struggle with anemia and a few other issues. I am a vegetarian, I try to avoid using products tested on animals, and I don't wear leather or fur. Not perfect but doing what I can. 🙂 

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I did watch the SciShow YouTube with my kid. It has a long list of links in the info on video section. What I thought the video said was when looking at similar social economic factors, the significant difference no longer becomes significant.  

From OSU (Ohio State）https://news.osu.edu/breast-feeding-benefits-appear-to-be-overstated-according-to-study-of-siblings/

The actual study is linked upthread, it's the same one Mergath was asking about.

[Mergath]

1 hour ago, Teaching3bears said:

How can a mother know this?  I was not tested for this when pregnant.  

 

I don't know about mercury, but you can get a lead test at the doctor's office. Also, if your kids had any lead exposure through breastmilk you would probably know because they routinely test for lead around a year old. 

I'm sure most women don't have high enough levels of heavy metals to cause symptoms in a baby via breastmilk. My point was just that nothing is 100% free from potential risk. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

How can a mother know this?  I was not tested for this when pregnant.  

 

25 minutes ago, Mergath said:

I don't know about mercury, but you can get a lead test at the doctor's office. Also, if your kids had any lead exposure through breastmilk you would probably know because they routinely test for lead around a year old. 

 

Anyone can request for lead and mercury testing. How much someone pays out of pocket for the testing depends on their health insurance plan.

Here well baby checkup does not include lead testing. We have to request lead testing for DS13 and our insurance covered in full as we are in an area with known lead exposure. 

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

Then you are being intentionally obtuse.

But I guess I’m not surprised, if you truly believe what you posted earlier when you said, “Breastfeeding itself is taken as an aggressive act of judgment.” 

Because that’s an incredibly extreme opinion, and I can honestly say I have never heard anyone say anything like that.

How could breastfeeding a baby be viewed as “an aggressive act of judgment?” I can’t even make sense of that statement.

 

I think it’s the same kind of thing as some people think we are judging their choice to send their kids to school by homeschooling.  Most people are able to be all “whatever works for you” but there are a few odd souls that seem to think you’re breastfeeding your baby purely as an act of motherly competition.

[moonflower]

7 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

I know it's not my fault and I had a very healthy lifestyle during pregnancy and breastfeeding but I'm still wondering if my breastmilk was not all that great.  I have some chemical sensitivities.  Maybe not all breastmilk is great.  We live on a polluted planet and maybe it affects some more than others.

Have you seen what they feed cows?  It's not like the cows aren't enduring the pollution in the same way we are.

[moonflower]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

Yes.

So that transmen and non binary people, as well as transwomen who induce lactation, are included.

The correct term nowadays is 'chestfeeding', but I don't use it because you don't nurse babies with your chest, but with your breasts. So the term may be inclusive but it is also incorrect.

 

You have got to be kidding me.

[ktgrok]

18 hours ago, Terabith said:

Okay, question for StellaM or anyone else knowledgeable about breastfeeding, because this has literally been bothering me for 15 years.  

What do you do when a baby won't wake up to nurse?  

 

If the faster flow was what worked with the bottle, than the goal would be breast compressions to increase the flow at the breast to mimic the speed of the bottle, or to pump and bottle feed. Later, if the baby was able to stay awake and just preferred the faster flow you could switch to a lower flow nipple on the bottle, to make the breast comparatively more attractive. Oh, and stimulating a let down with the pump first, then latching baby on so they can skip the hard part and get milk right away. 

17 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Except that what you said was "causes....harm."  You didn't say "more health promoting."   You said "causes....harm."  

It's semantics, but I'd agree that "increases risk" is more accurate on an individual level. Would increased risk be acceptable without being shaming? Truly asking. And I'm coming from a standpoint where I fully acknowledge that some of my parenting choices increase certain risks, and I'm okay with that. 

16 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Honestly, the fact that anyone has to argue that it's even just OK or Good Enough to simply feed a baby formula indicates that there is plenty of judgement going on.  I am not arguing against the idea that "breast is best."  I have no problem with breastmilk being the tip top best food for a baby.  I can't argue with that in the least.  

 

ALL I am saying is that it's still OK to feed a baby formula.  That's OK.  It's good enough.  

And saying that seems to be really controversial here.  

I think everyone here has agreed with you entirely - that breast is best, and formula is okay. 

15 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

All of those things are true, and they are all true together.  

What is not true is that formula harms babies (which has been said in this thread.)  

There is a HUGE range between "A is harmful" and "B is the best option."  The reality is that A doesn't have to cause harm in order for B to be the best option.

Then why is it the best option? Truly curious if this is a semantics thing or a true disagreement. What makes A the best option, if there is zero risk of harm from B? 

15 hours ago, moonflower said:

re: LCs in hospitals (or nurses, for that matter), around about kid #3 I just started lying to them.  I wasn't waking my baby up every 3 hours on the dot and I wasn't writing down diaper results and times and I wasn't calculating how long I'd nursed on each breast.  All of that with my first made the first 6 weeks of nursing so miserable that I cried through every single nursing session and dreaded her waking up, which is a terrible thing to have to feel about a newborn baby.  My intuition is pretty good and we were weighing regularly anyway.  I tried at first (and still do try, each time, with each new LC or nurse) to say "oh, I'm not sure, not too long ago, about a normal nurse on each side" or "oh, 2 or 3 hours ago, pretty short nurse" or "just finished within the last hour or so, long nurse, at least half an hour" but every time they want specifics.  "So would you say from 4:15 am until 4:45 am on the right breast?" (well, no, I couldn't say that because I was nursing half asleep without my glasses on and it was pretty on and off anyway).  "Sure," I now say. 

 

I lied from baby #1...I'm obviously less honest than you, lol. They'd ask "how may times did he eat" and I'd ask "how many times should he have eaten?" Then say whatever number they indicated. 

14 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I believe you are absolutely wrong about that. Will some moms want to try it? Sure, definitely. Will most moms want to? I don’t think we can make that assumption, nor should we place any pressure or sense of guilt on moms who aren’t interested. There is simply no need for any mother to feel any sense of guilt about feeding her baby formula. Period. End of story. But some people won’t let it go, and that makes it very hard on moms who simply have no interest in breastfeeding — and there are a LOT of moms who have no interest.

Not referring to you here because you haven’t been pushy about it, but I don’t understand why women feel it is any of their business how other women choose to feed their babies.  I’m 55 years old and my ds is 19, so I am long past being in the midst of any of this, but I do hear the young moms I know complain about having been strongly pressured into breastfeeding their babies and being made to feel like they are terrible mothers if they don’t at least try it. I think that is a terrible thing to do to a new mother. 

I can understand asking a new mom if she’s interested in breastfeeding her baby or asking her if she would like more information about it, but the moment that new mom says, “No, thank you,” it’s time to politely wish her and her new baby all the best, and then walk away. It’s her baby and her decision, and hard-sell and scare tactics are way out of line.

I don't know anyone who goes up to people and tells them formula is bad, stop feeding it, etc. I do know people who have been harassed for nursing. 

Honestly, I think society treats mothers like crap in general, and so whichever way you feel judged and harassed. I breastfed, so was harassed. Someone else formula feeds, and is harrassed. Both are treated like crap, because our society treats women like crap on a regular basis. 

13 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

No, the acceptable way to talk about BFing is to not tell people that using formula "causes...harm"  Which has been said in this thread.

The acceptable way to talk about BFing is to recognize that formula feeding is good enough, which I haven't seen a BFing advocate do.

 

When method A can't be accepted as Ok, or Good Enough and when it's actually said to "cause...harm"  that's when the judgement happens.  

I think a lot of people, including me, said it was not only good enough, but sometimes the best option, in a lot of varying situations from medical reasons to past abuse history to scheduling reasons, etc etc. 

I think I said that all things being equal, breast is best. But in the real world not all things are equal, and in various situations what is best will vary depending on a lot of factors. I'll add that it is also none of my business what an individual decides to use. BUT, on a population level, it IS my business to help support women in breastfeeding, especially since most women do choose to try to nurse, but most women also struggle to do it. 

 

[Murphy101]

15 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Oh this is a whole separate issue.

People who are stealing formula aren't feeding their babies with it.  They are either selling it or cutting the drugs they sell with it.  

 

If it wasn't so greedy crazy expensive it wouldn't have a thriving black market value.  It's no different than making epi pens outrageously expensive and a manufacturer whining when people seek alternative means to obtain what they need.  There's no cause for the crazy pricing other than there's little to no regulation of formula pricing.

[EmseB]

29 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

If it wasn't so greedy crazy expensive it wouldn't have a thriving black market value.  It's no different than making epi pens outrageously expensive and a manufacturer whining when people seek alternative means to obtain what they need.  There's no cause for the crazy pricing other than there's little to no regulation of formula pricing.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/02/magazine/money-issue-baby-formula-crime-ring.html

Anyone on WIC can get it for free, and the income requirements are not super low. We were eligible for the program when my husband was a low ranking military officer and we had one kid. Price regulations wouldn't really help because the government purchases a lot of the formula made in the US and of course the FDA requirements for entering the market are pretty prohibitive so you're not going to get a lot of competition. So if you require them to lower the price, you're just going to end with scarcity and a bigger black market.

 

[Mergath]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

Decided to have a quick look at the literature; specifically, meta analyses. Meta-analyses are useful for seeing how robust the existing literature actually is, and as such, are better to look at than single studies. 

First things that popped up in a quick 5 minute browse with my parameters set to only systematic reviews and meta analyses in the last 4 years ie recent. 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11892-019-1121-x

The updated systematic review and meta-analysis suggests that breastfeeding protects from type 2 diabetes. (2018, no conflicts of interest)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06473-x

More stable gut flora in EBF babies. (2018, no competing interests)

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/apa.13102

This review supports the hypothesis that breastfeeding is protective against breast and ovarian carcinoma (2015, no financial interests or other competing interests)

Then you have older studies which adjust for confounds - for example, In a meta-analysis of 7 cohort studies of healthy term infants in affluent regions, Bachrach and associates found that infants who were not breastfed faced a 3.6-fold increased risk (95% CI, 1.9–7.1) of hospitalization for lower respiratory tract infection in the first year of life, compared with infants who were exclusively breastfed for more than 4 months. These studies included adjustment for parental smoking and socioeconomic status. 

~

These relate to public health issues. I know the conversation has moved on to the apparent toxicity of breastmilk, but reasonably robust, recent indicators of positive outcomes for breastfeeding for babies, mothers and for public health are not that hard to find. 

 

I only have a second so I don't have time at the moment to read them myself, but did the meta-analyses you linked all exclude any studies that didn't control for socioeconomic factors? Because in everything I've read, that seems to be the deciding factor in all the supposed overwhelming benefits of breastmilk. Whenever you control for income and education, the benefits either mostly or completely disappear. Except asthma. That seems to be the one thing bfing does actually help prevent, from what I've read. So if I had a family history of asthma, that would definitely make me want to try hard to breastfeed.

And we were discussing the *possible* toxicity of breastmilk. Which is certainly a possibility in some situations, and something I would take into account if I was thinking about breastfeeding but I had spent the last few years renovating a historic house or something along those lines that would have caused a high amount of lead exposure. Just like you wouldn't buy formula that tests high for arsenic or mercury, you also wouldn't want to breastfeed if you do lead remediation for a living, or if you eat three cans of tuna fish a day. Breastmilk isn't always the best option no matter the circumstances.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Mergath said:

 

I only have a second so I don't have time at the moment to read them myself, but did the meta-analyses you linked all exclude any studies that didn't control for socioeconomic factors? Because in everything I've read, that seems to be the deciding factor in all the supposed overwhelming benefits of breastmilk. Whenever you control for income and education, the benefits either mostly or completely disappear. Except asthma. That seems to be the one thing bfing does actually help prevent, from what I've read. So if I had a family history of asthma, that would definitely make me want to try hard to breastfeed.

And we were discussing the *possible* toxicity of breastmilk. Which is certainly a possibility in some situations, and something I would take into account if I was thinking about breastfeeding but I had spent the last few years renovating a historic house or something along those lines that would have caused a high amount of lead exposure. Just like you wouldn't buy formula that tests high for arsenic or mercury, you also wouldn't want to breastfeed if you do lead remediation for a living, or if you eat three cans of tuna fish a day. Breastmilk isn't always the best option no matter the circumstances.

I think the evidence toward reducing cancer risk in mothers is also pretty strong, from what I've seen, particularly in women who have the BRCA mutation. 

And it definitely is not the best option in every situation. I don't think anyone feels it is, or at least any sane, rational person. (there are wackos in any group). Just that if all other factors are equal, feeding a baby ______ the milk of it's own species is generally the preferred option. But of course, all other factors are often not equal, so in many circumstances it is no longer the preferred option. 

I think when people say "breast is best" they mean "breast is best, all things being equal" but people hear "breast is best and if you feed formula you are poisoning your child". 

Sort of like how when people say "black lives matter" they mean "black lives matter, too" but sometimes people hear "only black lives matter". 

[maize]

Which of us mothers manages "best" in every aspect of parenting?

What would that even mean? Our kids are buckled into rear facing seats until at least age three, eat only an organic, plant based, locally sourced, whole foods diet which is provided in the form of nice sit-down meals with their family where interesting and educational discussions happen, learn a musical instrument starting in preschool, are raised bilingual from birth and regularly read to in both languages, participate in sports and dance and art classes and have plenty of time with friends but are not overscheduled, don't have too many car rides to reduce the risks of car crashes, and have plenty of downtime to play imaginatively, spend lots of time in nature and get exactly the right amount but not too much sun exposure for their skin type and latitude, live a screen free life in their preschool years and learn to self-regulate their limited and healthy screen access as they get older, breathe pure air free from pollutants, drink only pure artesian spring water from a source with all the right minerals and none of the wrong ones, receive regular validation from the adults in their lives who always provide just the right amount of structure with flexibility as needed, get to experience failure and learn to have a growth mindset and embrace failure but also experience plenty of confidence building success, are free ranging within a totally safe and kid friendly environment, have pets, travel the world and experience the mind broadening benefits of encountering different cultures but are rooted in a supportive community where they feel secure, have two happily married parents who rarely fight or argue but when they do make sure the child also sees their reconciliation so they can learn how reconciliation works in a healthy relationship,.............................

For the kid who grows up with all of these breastfeeding is just the frosting on their cake of bests.

I guess there will always be people who judge moms for their parenting choices/unchoices (cause we all know we don't really ever have all the choices available to us) but all that is about people being judgy people, not about whether breast milk is usually best for human babies. 

Best isn't and can't the standard for good.

Happy mother's day y'all.

Edited May 12, 2019 by maize

[Penelope]

19 hours ago, EmseB said:

I think this is the same one.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4077166/

 I’m really behind, but here is a response discussing this study from two physicians who are members of the Academy for Breastfeeding Medicine. https://bfmed.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/reports-on-breastfeeding-sibling-study-are-vastly-overstated/

 

And another: http://www.center4research.org/breastfeeding-formula-media-crying-wolf/

I appreciated this quote from the first link. 

Quote

But let’s assume, as a thought experiment, that it is the conditions that make breastfeeding possible, and not breastfeeding itself, that reduce child obesity, raise IQs and improve school performance. What does that mean for health policy? If the secret ingredient is “being born in a family where breastfeeding is possible,” then creating the conditions that enable families to breastfeed must be our highest priority. The take-away is that we need to fight for paid parental leave, high-quality childcare and a living wage for every family, regardless of how they decide to feed their infants.

The study’s authors say as much in the conclusion of their paper:

Efforts to increase breastfeeding that solely focus on individually based behavior change without addressing the economic and social realities women face and the difficult tradeoffs they are forced to make in the months following the birth of their child risk alienating and stigmatizing the very women they hope to help. Instead, they need to be considered in conjunction with social policies that also influence a mother’s ability to breastfeed, especially when current recommendations are that women exclusively do so for at least 6 months of age… A truly comprehensive approach to increasing breastfeeding in the U.S., with a particular focus on reducing racial and SES disparities, will need to work toward increasing and improving parental leave policies, flexible work schedules and health benefits even for low-wage workers, and access to high quality child care that can ease the transition back to work for both mother and child.

 

Its good to remember that when talking about the choice to formula feed, not all women have that same choice. Just as some women feel pressured into breastfeeding, many others are still pushed into using formula, either by their families and communities, medical professionals with suboptimal advice, and maybe most especially by work situations like not having enough maternity leave to estabish a milk supply, and inadequate time and place to pump. I finally finished watching the video. While it is good to discuss the issue, the video came across as a huge oversimplification. I can already “hear” reactions to pieces like this. “See? It doesn’t make any difference. So for goodness sake, put your shirt down and let grandma give the kid a bottle and get back to work.” Complete with a look of disgust, for some. It is still not easy to nurse your child, particularly past the newborn stage, in all parts of the world. Once upon a time it was probably more often the wealthy parents who used formula or wet nurses. Now in some places we have the reverse, for various reasons. 

[maize]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Not being able to do all the bests, doesn't mean giving up on any single best, though. 

Personally, I found it much easier to do best in the first year of life, because I was the primary influencer in my babies' lives.*

It's a heck of a lot easier to do best for a baby than it is for a teen, imo. 

*and no, I didn't have maternity leave. We were dirt poor. The narrative that only rich mommies b/feed their kids did not apply to me.

Yeah, breastfeeding is one of the easier "bests" for me; I'm trying to speak to those who feel that promoting breastfeeding/advertising "breast is best" is shaming towards moms who don't breastfeed. 

We can choose best practices, we can promote best practices, and none of us can follow all best practices. Breastfeeding doesn't make or break good parenting any more than any other best does.

[maize]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

No it doesn't, but I'm pretty sure no-one in this thread said it did ? 

And I've literally never heard that in nursing circles.  

 

It seems to me that some feel a need to minimize the benefits of breastfeeding in order to justify formula feeding as a valid choice.

All I'm trying to say is we need to be OK with breastfeeding being best and also OK with not always choosing best. Even aside from the situations where breastfeeding is legitimately not best, it is OK as a parent to make a choice that, while not best, is still good. Like, feeding a baby in a way that meets their basic nutritional needs is good.

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

I am ONLY saying.....................accept that it's ok.  Accept that it's good enough.  

What does that look like? Does accepting it as good enough mean not promoting breastfeeding? Honestly curious. 

And as background, I breastfed all my kids for 3-4 years, but have a lot of pain in the beginning (Raynauds in my nipples starting before I give birth and continuing for about 6 weeks, overactive let down with 3, low supply with one), but also encouraged a friend to be okay with giving up pumping and just use formula because she was spending so much time trying to pump, wash pump parts, etc etc for a baby that couldn't latch that she never got to actually mother the baby, enjoy the baby, etc and there was no way that laying alone in a bassinet while mom pumped breastmilk all day was better for the baby than mom holding that baby and feeding formula. I also spent a lot of time reminding another friend with thyroid issues who struggled with getting a let down despite good supply that formula is not evil, and feeding her baby was the priority. So I do say breast is best, but I definitely accept that formula is often the right choice. But does that mean NOT encouraging breastfeeding? I don't think it does? 

But also, what does encouraging breastfeeding really mean? Does it mean "breastfeed or you are a lazy mom" or does it mean, "Oh, actually, you can still nurse and take antidepressants, if you need to and choose to. Here is a link to research which ones are safest." I think it means the latter, but maybe some think it means the former. 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, maize said:

It seems to me that some feel a need to minimize the benefits of breastfeeding in order to justify formula feeding as a valid choice.

All I'm trying to say is we need to be OK with breastfeeding being best and also OK with not always choosing best. Even aside from the situations where breastfeeding is legitimately not best, it is OK as a parent to make a choice that, while not best, is still good. Like, feeding a baby in a way that meets their basic nutritional needs is good.

Yes!!!! I don't choose the "best" math, I choose the one that I can manage. 

Heck, my kids ate pizza for lunch and ice cream for dinner. NOT the best. But that's okay. (not saying formula is ice cream, just giving examples that were fresh in my mind)

[maize]

8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I would expect no different response if formula isn't good enough.  

It depends on what the goal is. If I am counseling a mom who really wants to continue breastfeeding I am undermining HER if I give her advice that makes it difficult to maintain supply.

If I am trying to give generic advice that helps moms be successful at breastfeeding because they don't automatically have the background to be successful and there is a lot working against them and because breastfeeding is in fact generally good for both babies and moms I don't want to give advice that makes it difficult to maintain supply.

If I know a particular mom just needs encouragement to keep her baby fed and not stress over best--if she needs to know that good enough is good enough--then the above advice can be great.

[ktgrok]

30 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 

It's a fact that, especially but not only in the first few months, offering a breastfeeding mother these suggestions (don't feed through the night, don't pump or express regularly when away from the baby for extended time, engage in mixed feeding ) will risk her having a lower supply, and reduce the chance of a successful breastfeeding relationship with her infant.

It's not advice that should be given without a disclaimer that these suggestions can affect your supply.  If a mom doesn't care that it might reduce her supply and lead to early weaning, fine. If she does though....giving this advice without disclaimer may inadvertently disrupt or end her breastfeeding choice.

I think the suggestions are irresponsible to give to a nursing mother without the disclaimer re supply.

These suggestions are a good example of how treating formula feeding as the norm undermines breastfeeding.

 

14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

You could say 'You're in a really tough position. I've got a few suggestions for you, but just so you know, they can reduce your milk supply. Would you like to hear those options ?'  That puts the ball in the woman's court - she's been accurately risk informed, and she can choose to hear those options and try them, or not, depending on what her tolerance is for risk to the breastfeeding relationship.

 

 

But at that point, in the scenario of can't pump enough and has to send formula, it isn't like NOT sending formula is an option anyway. If she doesn't  make enough via the pump, and some moms just don't, then she doesn't. Yes, she should still pump every few hours while baby is gone, but may not make enough, or may not be able to pump extra during the week when she is juggling things as a single mother, etc. That's when you say, some formula will be fine, try to relax. 

Now, the bottle at night thing...I do agree that adding the disclaimer that skipping feedings at night can lower supply is important information to share. 

[EmseB]

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

The phrases I bolded (and left your bolding as it was) indicate to me a misunderstanding of my postion.

I am not attempting to actively encourage formula feeding (as a public heath good or otherwise.)  I am not a "formula proponent."  I am not trying to promote formula feeding.

I am promoting and advocating for EVERYONE to simply accept formula is ok.  That it's good enough.  I am not suggesting that we (as a society) advocate for formula.  I am not suggesting that it's equal to breastmilk.  I am not suggesting that it is "surpassing the positive" of breastfeeding.

I am ONLY saying.....................accept that it's ok.  Accept that it's good enough.  Accept that making that choice on purpose is ok

 

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

I agree with what I bolded.

I would add things like...

Ok, I hear what you are really struggling to get enough sleep to get your other kid on the bus on time, maybe have Dad give a bottle at midnight with formula so you can get a bit more sleep.

It's OK if you give the daycare bottles of formula and pump what you can while at work, doing so isn't going to harm your baby.  If you pump enough to send to daycare the next day, that's great, but it's not a failure if you don't.

Pump what you can while baby is with daddy for the weekend, but if you have to send a can of formula, it's not going to hurt your baby.  

 

 

The advice you have here directly contradicts the statement in bold above. If a woman takes this advice they won't be able to breastfeed for very long because their supply will tank. This is the advice many women get, don't get me wrong, but make no mistake it is pro-formula because it leaves a woman with only formula as an option. You don't think it's promoting formula feeding, but that's exactly what's happening. This may be where the disconnect is happening in the conversation because if you see your advice above as unproblematic as far as continuing to breastfeed then there has to be a misunderstanding somewhere about how supply works, how women are able to continue to breastfeed, etc.

No, the formula isn't likely to hurt the baby unless they have allergies or a sensitive gut, but if the woman wants to breastfeed this advice absolutely undermines that goal. But considering that, you really have no way of knowing if the baby has allergies or sensitivities or not, so I'd be reluctant to tell any woman that "X food won't harm your kid," unless I had a lot of information (can you tell my kid has allergies and I've had people tell me to just try this or that and it's not like it will actually hurt him?) and even then I'd be wary.

If she doesn't care about maintaining a supply or continuing to breastfeed then it's fine advice, but is directing a woman towards exclusive formula feeding.

As someone interested in promoting breastfeeding, I would try to figure out what the woman's goals were before giving any advice. In any case, the above advice doesn't allow the woman to make an informed decision because what you're omitting is that if she does all of the above her milk supply will diminish dramatically, likely within a few days or weeks. If she wants to make that choice on purpose, that IS okay, like you state. But most women given that sort of advice aren't advised of the consequences at the same time, or are told that their breastfeeding goals are a little bit silly and why put yourself out like that because all of the above is good enough. And that's where I think it's not good enough. Not that she can't make that informed choice for herself, but very few women are informed of the consequences of advice like that. Especially when it comes from a medical professional, but even through peers too.

[EmseB]

I will add that I've repeated my story several times in this thread, but in case I didn't talk about me enough, here it is:

At my baby's 3 or 5 day checkup or somewhere in the beginning, I was told he was losing weight and handed a bag full of those tiny bottles of pre-made formula. I asked about nipple confusion and the nurse looked at me like I was crazy. I had extensive knowledge about breastfeeding and knew what would happen if I cracked open those bottles. At less than a week old, my body would start getting signals that milk wasn't being removed from my breasts.

My ped, the person in charge of my baby's health and nutrition, made it abundantly clear that formula was not only good enough, but preferable to me breastfeeding my own kid. I was the one that wasn't good enough, but the formula was. And I desperately wanted to breastfeed. The doctor did not have the time of day for someone like me. And I know I wasn't the only one getting this advice.

This has been, IME with various peds, the norm for advice. If you are breastfeeding and your baby is gaining weight just fine and you don't say a word about how many times they wake up in the night to feed, the pediatrician thinks it's AWESOME that you're breastfeeding. Good job, Mom! If baby starts to slow down on the curve or plateau for any length of time they don't offer help with nursing. They offer formula or tell you to pump and bottle feed the baby after you nurse (a recipe for burnout if I've EVER heard one).

So maybe I'm confused about this whole conversation because the only people who wanted me to succeed at breastfeeding as much as I did were the people everyone else terms "boob nazis", but they were the only ones who saw my determination as a good thing. My ped didn't. Most of my peers didn't understand it. And my mom and family certainly didn't understand it. The message given to me was exactly that formula was good enough, but that I was inadequate to feed my child with my body. It was me that wasn't good enough. And I'm sorry if that sounds dramatic, but trust me it felt that way when I was in a postpartum haze just wanting help getting my kid to latch properly and to this day I get anxiety whenever a doc weighs one of my bf babies.

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

But at that point, in the scenario of can't pump enough and has to send formula, it isn't like NOT sending formula is an option anyway. If she doesn't  make enough via the pump, and some moms just don't, then she doesn't. Yes, she should still pump every few hours while baby is gone, but may not make enough, or may not be able to pump extra during the week when she is juggling things as a single mother, etc. That's when you say, some formula will be fine, try to relax. 

Now, the bottle at night thing...I do agree that adding the disclaimer that skipping feedings at night can lower supply is important information to share. 

But wouldn’t an even better alternative be if society was structured to acknowledge that breast feeding is valuable and make it possible for her to pump more at work, have her baby close by in a work attached nursery or heaven forbid actually provide some kind of decent financial support so mums can be home with bubs for long enough.

[TravelingChris]

On 5/9/2019 at 9:54 PM, hjffkj said:

I am a huge breastfeeding advocate but breast is not always best. No one can say what is best for every situation. My sil nearly starved her son because she was so scared of formula because of all the negativity surrounding it and she didn't know she was producing enough milk. 

I think breastfeeding certainly needs to be emphasized as the likely best option but care providers who are going to promote it so heavily need to be open to the fact that formula can be necessary.

Thank you.  I was so happy that overall I was not chastised in the hospitals or by health professionals. My youngest is 22 so I have been concerned that it is an even more popular option now.  I could not brestfeed because of health and medications reasons.  I was not breastfeed as a baby because I was not able to suckle due to hard cleft palate and my mom was a breastfeeding advocate. My daughter's both will have health and medications issues that probably will preclude breastfeeding too.

 

 

[TravelingChris]

On 5/9/2019 at 10:47 PM, Mergath said:

 

It's so ridiculous that the first linked study didn't try to control for any other factors at all. Which is the problem with so many of the studies that announced bfing will make your child a wealthy genius. Pretty sure the home environment and family income might have played a role there, too.

And not even wealth is needed to make a difference in IQ.  Cause there are plenty of people with high IQ whose families were poor or like my husband's lower working class. But the differences that I have noticed is that the parents are highly intelligent ( though may have other personality aspects or circumstances that keep them from better employment, like my in-laws.)

I always laughed at those claims about breastfeeding and IQ.  We are plenty happy with the IQs we ended up with.

Immunity and gut bacteria are the real issues.   I do not know and no one knows if my family's fantastic awful luck w autoimmune issues have to do w/ no breastfeeding or maybe intergenerational curse of extreme hardships( yes, there are a number of good studies that are seeming to statistically making a connection) or overuse of antibiotics or too many infections or little green men or ,,,,,,,

 

[geodob]

Though breast milk plays a critical role in a baby developing its 'Innate Immune System'.  Where the mother shares her Innate Immunity with her baby.
This prepares a baby for many pathogens that they will encounter.
Otherwise a baby will have to encounter and develop their antibodies.