WWYD - estranged family members trying to contact DC - also somewhat of a vent

[Petrichor]

Over a year ago, these people began to act in a way that we could no longer tolerate. We learned that they didn't respect us, and that we couldn't trust them. The kids had been close to them before this event happened, and missed them a lot after we stopped being able to go visit them. The kids asked about the family members for months.

Then notes to the kids started showing up in kids library books whenever we'd ask for books to get put on the hold shelf.

Our kids are under the age of 10 - if they were older teens I'd leave the choice of a relationship up to them, but at this age, it's not really an option.

They've suggested we bring the kids over, "maybe even just drop them off if you (DH and I) don't want to see us."

It's not that we don't want to see them. But we don't want to be yelled at, insulted, disrespected, especially not in front of our kids. They see nothing wrong with doing that - they think kids don't notice "adult talk" - even if it's "heated" and filled with insults 

I've seen it suggested here - the book "Boundaries" really helped me come to terms with things, but it was a library book, and I don't have a copy of my own. Not sure what to do - if anything in this situation. Worried that if I ignore the behavior, it will get worse.

To clarify, the "situation" being the writing notes to kids and leaving them in books under my name on the hold shelf - just found a second such note today in one of our books.

We live in the same town, and there's only one library. They visit the library about as much as we do.

 

That reminds me - another part of this "situation" is that since we live in the same town as them, we do occasionally run into them. About a month ago, DD and I ran into one of the relatives. The relative must have seen us from far away, and walked up to DD when I was looking the other way.

 

Ex. of the conversation, with relationship changed:

Relative: *arms open* "It's your aunty!"

DD: "I'm not an aunty!"

Relative, to me, as she passes behind me: "you're disgusting"

 

The last time I contacted them was to see how things were going - we were hoping - and have been explicit about this - that they would seek therapy. They offered to pay for family therapy and we told them we would take them up on their offer, but they never followed through. after we had asked them a few times when they wanted to schedule a session for, they let on that they had never planned to follow through with it, and that they're just hoping we will go to therapy to "fix" whatever is wrong with us.

 

 

[Annie G]

I would talk to the library staff and put an end to the note leaving.  I’ll leave the real advice to others who are much better at that than I am.  Sorry- this is a crummy situation. 

[LMD]

Yeah, I'd be livid. I would also speak to library staff and make a complaint every time.

I'm really sorry. Can you move?

[Lecka]

If this was between adults I would wonder about the possibility of a restraining order?  If it were between adults I would think it sounded like stalking?  

I don’t know if that’s the right way to look at it or not.  

 

[Junie]

I am sorry.  You've gotten some good advice here.  I would be tempted to keep checking out the Boundaries book so that your relative can see what you're reading.

ETA:  Not suggesting that this is what you should do, just what I would be tempted to do.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Junie

[gardenmom5]

In addition to talking to the librarian,  I'd also consider a restraining order.

They're attempting contact in an underhanded way with minor children against their parents wishes. 

[Ravin]

I would talk to library staff (going up chain of authority if necessary), explain what has been happening (including in writing, with specific dates), and ask if they can flag your account to keep your holds behind the counter, or put them on the hold shelf under a pseudonym. It sounds like that would be a minor hassle which would let you avoid a major hassle.

I would also start documenting these things, and maybe escalate to police reports, because in some jurisdictions it's harassment, and in some jurisdictions it could help establish grounds for an order of protection (for specifics for your jurisdiction, seek legal advice). 

[cave canem]

1 hour ago, Junie said:

I am sorry.  You've gotten some good advice here.  I would be tempted to keep checking out the Boundaries book so that your relative can see what you're reading.

I love this suggestion with a great big 🧡, but I fear that approach might be too subtle for this library stalker.

[mom2scouts]

This thread is really making me wonder how your libraries handle holds! Nobody in my community other than librarians would ever know what books I have on hold or have access to them while they're waiting for me to pick them up. The library will call and tell me x number of books I have on hold are available, but they never even mention the titles. All books on hold are held behind the counter and must be picked up and checked out with my library card. I can send my husband to pick them up only because I've given the library written permission for him to access my library records. How are your relatives getting access to books you have on hold? Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something? Our library doesn't let other people see what you are reading and deletes records after books are returned and fines paid. I would not be happy if people were able to put notes in books my children were checking out (or reading all the same books I was reading) because of poor library policies.

[mathnerd]

Name change at the library sounds like a good solution. Also, if the librarian tells these people to not touch other people's books that are on hold, that could deter them.

Does your town have multiple library branches? Mine has several within a few miles of me. If I were you, I would start using another location of the library. 

[Petrichor]

2 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

 Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something?

yep. and since my last name is the same as the relative's last name, our hold shelf books end up next to each other.

[cave canem]

3 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

How are your relatives getting access to books you have on hold? Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something?

That's the system we have.  The books are shelved alphabetically by requester's name.  A slip with the borrower's name and the book title sticks out of each book.  The borrower picks them off the shelf and carries them to self-serve checkout or to the desk for help.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The first thing I would do is rifle through every book on hold before giving them to the kids. You have gotten some other great suggestions. 

[mom2scouts]

1 minute ago, cave canem said:

That's the system we have.  The books are shelved alphabetically by requester's name.  A slip with the borrower's name and the book title sticks out of each book.  The borrower picks them off the shelf and carries them to self-serve checkout or to the desk for help.

I'm surprised there are still libraries who use this method. Our library is more protective of patron privacy. People requesting books about bankruptcy, infertility, mental illness, marriage problems, or all kinds of other sensitive subjects probably don't want the books displayed with their names for the whole community to see.

[Petrichor]

A restraining order sounds.... unlikely to be granted? And a huge hassle.

Police report sounds like a good idea. They've off-handedly threatened to sue for child-access rights or to go through CPS before. Sounds crazy, but maybe having some sort of documentation like this would help things in case they ever decided to make a CPS report against us?

 

[gardenmom5]

14 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

This thread is really making me wonder how your libraries handle holds! Nobody in my community other than librarians would ever know what books I have on hold or have access to them while they're waiting for me to pick them up. The library will call and tell me x number of books I have on hold are available, but they never even mention the titles. All books on hold are held behind the counter and must be picked up and checked out with my library card. I can send my husband to pick them up only because I've given the library written permission for him to access my library records. How are your relatives getting access to books you have on hold? Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something? Our library doesn't let other people see what you are reading and deletes records after books are returned and fines paid. I would not be happy if people were able to put notes in books my children were checking out (or reading all the same books I was reading) because of poor library policies.

I would imagine this is very affected by the size of the system.  we're in our county system - and it is one of the largest in the country with multiple branches.  we get email notices items are available.  books are shelved in a patron access area by the first four letters of the last name (and further sorted by first initial).  by allowing patron's direct access to their holds - it frees librarians up for other work. it also means, anyone can access anyone else's holds.  - to check them out, is completely different.  only the account holder or their previously granted permission proxy may do so.

certain high value items are held behind the desk.  I'm sure  if this was happening in this system - all items could easily be placed behind the desk or in the librarians office.

[alisoncooks]

7 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

I'm surprised there are still libraries who use this method. Our library is more protective of patron privacy. People requesting books about bankruptcy, infertility, mental illness, marriage problems, or all kinds of other sensitive subjects probably don't want the books displayed with their names for the whole community to see.

My small town library keeps holds behind the desk and private. 

In the large, college town nearby, holds are like what is described above: shelved in the common area near the self-checkout. It is very weird to me. What's to keep someone else from grabbing a sought-after title? Or a child from pulling them off the shelf and relocated? 

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, Petrichor said:

A restraining order sounds.... unlikely to be granted? And a huge hassle.

Police report sounds like a good idea. They've off-handedly threatened to sue for child-access rights or to go through CPS before. Sounds crazy, but maybe having some sort of documentation like this would help things in case they ever decided to make a CPS report against us?

 

file a report, every single time.  you want a paper trail.  let the responding officer know - you want the paper trail because of their behavior so when/if the day comes, you have a solid paper trail.

[Murphy101]

33 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

This thread is really making me wonder how your libraries handle holds! Nobody in my community other than librarians would ever know what books I have on hold or have access to them while they're waiting for me to pick them up. The library will call and tell me x number of books I have on hold are available, but they never even mention the titles. All books on hold are held behind the counter and must be picked up and checked out with my library card. I can send my husband to pick them up only because I've given the library written permission for him to access my library records. How are your relatives getting access to books you have on hold? Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something? Our library doesn't let other people see what you are reading and deletes records after books are returned and fines paid. I would not be happy if people were able to put notes in books my children were checking out (or reading all the same books I was reading) because of poor library policies.

 

At my library, all hold books are on shelves the public can access and in order of last name, first letter for ease of pick up.  I love that it's super easy but I absolutely HATE that this means my minor children's names are easily found by anyone who watches them pick up their holds.  If we didn't have an unusual last name it might not bother me, but there's literally only 2 people with the name outside my house and that's my in laws.

[Pen]

20 minutes ago, Petrichor said:

A restraining order sounds.... unlikely to be granted? And a huge hassle.

Police report sounds like a good idea. They've off-handedly threatened to sue for child-access rights or to go through CPS before. Sounds crazy, but maybe having some sort of documentation like this would help things in case they ever decided to make a CPS report against us?

 

 

Yes.  Document!!!! 

and this might be worth the paper trail of trying to get TRO even if not granted .   

[Valley Girl]

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

This thread is really making me wonder how your libraries handle holds! Nobody in my community other than librarians would ever know what books I have on hold or have access to them while they're waiting for me to pick them up. The library will call and tell me x number of books I have on hold are available, but they never even mention the titles. All books on hold are held behind the counter and must be picked up and checked out with my library card. I can send my husband to pick them up only because I've given the library written permission for him to access my library records. How are your relatives getting access to books you have on hold? Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something? Our library doesn't let other people see what you are reading and deletes records after books are returned and fines paid. I would not be happy if people were able to put notes in books my children were checking out (or reading all the same books I was reading) because of poor library policies.

Holds in our library are public access and tagged with last names. Ours is not a small-town library either. But, yeah, it bugs me.

[ThisIsTheDay]

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

This thread is really making me wonder how your libraries handle holds! Nobody in my community other than librarians would ever know what books I have on hold or have access to them while they're waiting for me to pick them up. The library will call and tell me x number of books I have on hold are available, but they never even mention the titles. All books on hold are held behind the counter and must be picked up and checked out with my library card. I can send my husband to pick them up only because I've given the library written permission for him to access my library records. How are your relatives getting access to books you have on hold? Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something? Our library doesn't let other people see what you are reading and deletes records after books are returned and fines paid. I would not be happy if people were able to put notes in books my children were checking out (or reading all the same books I was reading) because of poor library policies.

 

I live in a medium size library district, population 200,000. Every branch I've held books at (depending on convenience) has those holds in a public area under alpha order. One branch has them on carts and a few years ago began turning the spines down so you can't easily see what books are on hold.

When I lived in Colorado Springs, the main library had a room full of holds, and all books were shelved by the patron's last name. You'd go in and find your own books.

When I lived in a small town, holds were kept behind the circulation desk--mainly because there was room to do so.

(And yes, if people were slipping notes into my books, I'd begin having the library hold my books behind the counter.)

 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, alisoncooks said:

My small town library keeps holds behind the desk and private. 

In the large, college town nearby, holds are like what is described above: shelved in the common area near the self-checkout. It is very weird to me. What's to keep someone else from grabbing a sought-after title? Or a child from pulling them off the shelf and relocated? 

It's in the computer as held by a particular person.   It will only be checked out to that person,  and there isn't enough data on the slip to allow another person to fake the data as their own.

[gardenmom5]

I saw this yesterday.  I don't mean to infer what is happening to you isn't bad - I thought this might give you some comfort that it's not this crazy.

do keep a paper trail.  go through books when you pick them up - have a librarian as a witness.  good point to have all contact about this with the library in writing = paper trail.  keep every note you find (it's evidence.)  make a note of date and book each note is in.  hopefully putting your books behind the librarians desk will shut this down - but it's likely it will just move to a new format. 

have you responded to this person?  that encourages them to continue.  I would also recommend the youtube channel surviving narcissism with dr. les carter.  there are a lot of videos, he explains things very well.  what motivates a narcissist and how to protect yourself.

[Shoeless]

My approach is likely to be more extreme than others will recommend, but I believe you have a potentially dangerous situation on your hands with your in-laws that goes beyond what is happening at the library.  I think you are wise to be concerned about this situation getting worse.  It often *does* get much worse when the harrassers feel they are losing control over their victim.  That your estranged in-laws think they are entitled to circumvent you and your spouse to access your children is way beyond bold.  People that do this are undermining you and hope to drive your children away from you and straight to them.  They will escalate their actions until they get what they want.  If they can't get what they want (the children), they'll settle for causing as much drama and distress as possible.   This won't stop with the library books.  

Make sure all of your information with doctors, therapists, schools, camps, pharmacies, etc is on lock-down.  I would not put it past one of your in-laws to try to get information about your kids and/or you without your consent, especially if they can use that info against you.  If you all live in a small town, it would be easy for someone to play the card: "I'm just a nice old granny/aunty! How can you not trust a nice, little old lady?!".   They could try to pick your kids up from school, cancel doctor appointments, (especially if they disagree with how you handle your children's health), pick up prescriptions that you need and destroy them, etc.  Doctor offices and pharmacies can set up a password that must be given to access info.  You can tell the pharmacy that only you and your spouse can pick up meds and insist that either a password be used or that ID must be shown.   

Make sure your inlaws cannot tamper with your mail.  If you manage to stop them from leaving notes in library books, they'll move on to mailing letters and leaving packages for the kids.  Maybe you can get a locking mail box, I don't know if that's available near you.

If they have already threatened to sue for grand-parents rights/visitation and threatened you with CPS visits, you need to schedule a consultation with a lawyer. Most lawyers will do a 1 hour free consultation.  Don't think the in-laws aren't serious with this threat.  They may be simply waiting to see if you'll cave without them going to the bother of suing you.  

It is likely too soon to get a restraining order, because they haven't done anything overtly threatening, but you *can* get the lawyer to write a cease and desist letter, which will send the message that you are not going to roll over and let the in-laws have access to the kids. 

I would also forget about going to therapy with these people.  They aren't interested in healing the relationship.  They'd likely just use what they glean from therapy to further manipulate and abuse you and the kids, (and yes, this is abuse). 

And whatever you do, do NOT let them take the kids, not even for an hour.  Best case scenario, they'd spend the visit bad-mouthing you to your children.  Worst case scenario, they refuse to return the kids to you.  

Please remember that it is not un-Christian to protect yourself from abuse.  You can love someone and pray for them without subjecting yourself and your children to hostility and abuse.  

Edited March 27, 2019 by MissLemon

[El...]

I think you ought to speak, in person, to a police officer.  You could schedule a meeting by calling the non emergency line. They will have more ideas and more of a scale to assess the situation. 

This sounds like a story which ends with one of the kids getting disgruntled with you, being lured to go stay with"auntie", and a long, irrational legal fight in which you are suprised by the depths of slander to which people will sink. You need to start making a paper trail. A police report is a good first piece of paper.

[vonfirmath]

14 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

This thread is really making me wonder how your libraries handle holds! Nobody in my community other than librarians would ever know what books I have on hold or have access to them while they're waiting for me to pick them up. The library will call and tell me x number of books I have on hold are available, but they never even mention the titles. All books on hold are held behind the counter and must be picked up and checked out with my library card. I can send my husband to pick them up only because I've given the library written permission for him to access my library records. How are your relatives getting access to books you have on hold? Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something? Our library doesn't let other people see what you are reading and deletes records after books are returned and fines paid. I would not be happy if people were able to put notes in books my children were checking out (or reading all the same books I was reading) because of poor library policies.

 

Books on hold here are wrapped in white paper with the first 4 letters of your last name and placed on open shelves

[Petrichor]

10 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

have you responded to this person? 

No. After this second note, I was very tempted to contact them.

[Ravin]

14 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

This thread is really making me wonder how your libraries handle holds! Nobody in my community other than librarians would ever know what books I have on hold or have access to them while they're waiting for me to pick them up. The library will call and tell me x number of books I have on hold are available, but they never even mention the titles. All books on hold are held behind the counter and must be picked up and checked out with my library card. I can send my husband to pick them up only because I've given the library written permission for him to access my library records. How are your relatives getting access to books you have on hold? Does the library put them out somewhere public with your name on them or something? Our library doesn't let other people see what you are reading and deletes records after books are returned and fines paid. I would not be happy if people were able to put notes in books my children were checking out (or reading all the same books I was reading) because of poor library policies.

 

Our library puts holds in boxes with the last name rubber-banded to the spine, which is turned out so that people can't see what the book is without taking the box off the shelf. You can choose whether to have the library save your history aside from books actively checked out, on hold, or with outstanding fines (you have to opt-in to have it saved, not opt-out).

[Katy]

As a foster parent who's seen creepy inlaw situations blow up into kids being in my home before, call the police or the sheriffs office and possibly an attorney for a free consultation.  Hopefully it's nothing but you need a record that someone official understands what is going on. They'll know what the laws are in your area.  I know it feels like overkill but it isn't.  These people are not acting normal or healthy.  Carefully and in an age-appropriate way you also need to explain to your children what is going on and that they should absolutely not trust these people or go with them, ever.

If something ever blows up the documentation will mean the kids will be returned to you ASAP.  If somehow you get accused of child abuse and the documentation isn't out there it can take months to get your children back while social workers sort out what happened.

[Tanaqui]

1. Document, document, document. It may even be worth it to send the worst offenders a single letter - of which you'll keep a copy! - expressing your desire to have them leave your children alone.

2. Definitely talk to the librarians, with pictures. Ask them to hold your books under the desk and to be doubly sure not to share information with other patrons.

3. I assume that you homeschool your kids, but if you don't, go to the school with pictures and explain that you are estranged from your emotionally abusive relatives and that your children must not, under any circumstances, be allowed to be picked up or talk to anybody whom you have not specifically designated - particularly not these people (names and pictures). Theoretically they have this policy in place, but schools often bend these rules for "obvious" exceptions like Grandma, especially if the kid evidently knows that person. Follow this same procedure for any afterschool or extracurricular activity that your children are in, even if you sit there the whole time and don't leave - a notarized note, a list of people who can and cannot pick up your child, pictures appended, everybody must show ID. Same with the pharmacy and the doctor. Caulk up all those little cracks.

4. I don't know if you could get a restraining order, but it might be worth it to run this situation by the police and/or a lawyer to see what your options are.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Petrichor said:

No. After this second note, I was very tempted to contact them.

do you have any contact, of any kind on your side?

if not - but you were to respond, they would have considered this a success - you contacted them.   and you would get more of this type of behavior.

you're getting some good advice - these people are not normal, and absolutely cannot be trusted or ever expected to act rationally.

take seriously the suggestions to contact schools, drs, pharmacies, etc. in writing - that absolutely NO information is to be give out about your children to anyone but you or your husband.  (if they do - you can sue them. especially medical for violating hippa.  that's how serious the law is on this stuff.)

start a file with the police. you want that record.  I don't know if you read the story on the family being stalked - but even though they know who it is, it's being done in a such a way it's making arresting and charging them difficult.

and be upfront with your kids.  you don't want them thinking these people are safe, or one day - they may just pick them up and your children will think it's safe to go with them.

[SKL]

Name change at the library sounds good.

Meanwhile, I would check every library book for notes upon checkout, and I would tell the offending relatives that you are doing this.  I would document your notice in some way so they cannot pretend to be surprised and hurt and cry to your kids about it in the future.

Your relatives are free to seek a separate relationship with your kids when they are adults.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Meanwhile, I would check every library book for notes upon checkout, and I would tell the offending relatives that you are doing this.  I would document your notice in some way so they cannot pretend to be surprised and hurt and cry to your kids about it in the future.

 

What, so they know for a fact to try a different approach? They're going to do the "shocked and hurt" act anyway. One note expressing your desire to be no-contact, for the purposes of documentation is already a risky move because you're showing them how to get you to respond. It may be a good idea because you want it documented, which is why I suggested it, but anything more specific or detailed is a waste of time and a bad idea.

[Lisa R.]

6 hours ago, Petrichor said:

No. After this second note, I was very tempted to contact them.

I guess I'm puzzled why  this thread has so much discussion over library book hold policies.  It seems like that would be an interesting spin off thread. Library policies are not what this situation is about at all.

This is a boundary issue where relatives have been given a boundary and are violating it to manipulate young children. It's truly appalling. The fact that the OP considers contacting the relatives is also concerning because it feeds the drama and will, most definitely, not solve anything. She is dealing with people who have threatened to contact CPS, if I'm understanding correctly. If so, these people are a danger to her family and she needs to follow the steps Miss Lemon articulated above. If this is a stereotypical small town, giving the story to the librarians at the ONE library in town that the relatives frequent can also fuel the situation as there is a high likelihood the library employees could be on the relatives' side.

OP, if you have the ability to move far away from this area, I would do so. In the meantime, protect your family by contacting an attorney and following his/her advice. 

Please do not contact your estranged family members. 

[Petrichor]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

do you have any contact, of any kind on your side?

yes, i've called them every 4 months or so (not since the notes started being left in books

and i've been sending them holiday cards since the incident that caused us to cut off contact (that we never send holiday cards was one of their major qualms about us)

 

 

The notes say things like:

[kids name] cool book, remember - we love you (signed auntie and uncle)

 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

38 minutes ago, Petrichor said:

yes, i've called them every 4 months or so (not since the notes started being left in books

and i've been sending them holiday cards since the incident that caused us to cut off contact (that we never send holiday cards was one of their major qualms about us)

 

 

The notes say things like:

[kids name] cool book, remember - we love you (signed auntie and uncle)

 

 

 

Do you think the holiday cards and calls might have sent a mixed message? I'm not judging or condemning you; you're just trying to be decent. But it's possible they think that you are OK with communication of the note variety, because you've sent them holiday notes. They might think it's OK to tell your dc that they love them and to speak to them now and then, because you've called them every few months. Do they know you've cut them off?

[Petrichor]

I've called them (only twice) hoping that they had cooled off enough to talk. Asking about their health, since I hadn't heard from them.

We stopped being on good terms with them (we were visiting them multiple times per week) after they decided to have a "heart to heart" yelling "match" with us (they yelled at us while we sat and couldn't get a word in edgewise - we finally walked out after they insulted one of our kids and blamed his poor manners on his parents not having any) ...and they were upset that we didn't bring the kids with us when we visited for this "heart to heart"

The two times we spoke on the phone it was me being calm and trying to "make things good" without allowing them to walk all over us, while they screamed at us.

We never sent them cards before. If we met them on a family get together sort of holiday, we'd exchange gifts, but we've never exchanged cards before. Especially not through the mail.  BUT while they were shouting at us in person, one of their major grievances was that we never send them cards, so I figure if they care about cards so much that they're willing to lose our on the only relatives that are still on speaking terms with them, then they can have the cards, but they wont get the relationship. (i'm sure it goes without saying, but their displeasure with our card-gifting habits is not the cause of our dissolved relationship)

*deep breath*

[Lady Florida.]

38 minutes ago, Petrichor said:

I've called them (only twice) hoping that they had cooled off enough to talk. Asking about their health, since I hadn't heard from them.

We stopped being on good terms with them (we were visiting them multiple times per week) after they decided to have a "heart to heart" yelling "match" with us (they yelled at us while we sat and couldn't get a word in edgewise - we finally walked out after they insulted one of our kids and blamed his poor manners on his parents not having any) ...and they were upset that we didn't bring the kids with us when we visited for this "heart to heart"

The two times we spoke on the phone it was me being calm and trying to "make things good" without allowing them to walk all over us, while they screamed at us.

We never sent them cards before. If we met them on a family get together sort of holiday, we'd exchange gifts, but we've never exchanged cards before. Especially not through the mail.  BUT while they were shouting at us in person, one of their major grievances was that we never send them cards, so I figure if they care about cards so much that they're willing to lose our on the only relatives that are still on speaking terms with them, then they can have the cards, but they wont get the relationship. (i'm sure it goes without saying, but their displeasure with our card-gifting habits is not the cause of our dissolved relationship)

*deep breath*

Yikes! What kind of 'heart to heart' involves yelling and not giving the other party a chance to speak? It sounds like they don't even know what the phrase means. I started to say they're treating you and your dh like children but children shouldn't be yelled at and insulted either. They're just plain disrespecting you.  From things you've posted here you were right to cut them out of your lives.

 I'd follow the suggestion to always check the library books before handing them to the kids and report this to the library staff. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[dirty ethel rackham]

On 3/26/2019 at 5:52 PM, Junie said:

I am sorry.  You've gotten some good advice here.  I would be tempted to keep checking out the Boundaries book so that your relative can see what you're reading.

ETA:  Not suggesting that this is what you should do, just what I would be tempted to do.

I would probably start checking out similar titles such as Psychopath Free (Expanded Edition): Recovering from Emotionally Abusive Relationships With Narcissists, Sociopaths, and Other Toxic People, Surviving the Toxic Family: Taking yourself out of the equation and taking your life back from your dysfunctional family, The Gaslight Effect: How to Spot and Survive the Hidden Manipulation Others Use to Control Your Life, Emotional Vampires: Dealing with People Who Drain You Dry, Revised and Expanded 2nd Edition. and many others.  

On 3/26/2019 at 8:10 PM, Petrichor said:

yep. and since my last name is the same as the relative's last name, our hold shelf books end up next to each other.

I would also talk to the library about the privacy issues regarding how they handle holds.  In our library, we have self-service holds, but they are by the first letter of the last name and by the last 4 digits of the library card number.  That way, they are more anonymous.  You can look up the state laws here regarding library patron privacy.  

 

[Pen]

I think  documenting, talking with police etc is needed.  I might be inclined to let the library notes continue for awhile as you figure out what to do.  It gives you a known thing to document.

 I would be very eagle eyes on the dc when at library though.  The relatives (or someone in their place) could show up while you are there.  Especially if you have a standard day you go.

 

[Shoeless]

Why are you calling them and sending greeting cards?  They have insulted you, insulted your children, called you names when you are with your children, yelled and screamed at you, and threatened to have your kids taken from you via the court system and CPS...and you are sending them greeting cards? Why?!  

What outcome are you looking for in this situation?   How bad do things have to get with them before you are willing to really cut them off? 

[gardenmom5]

along with learning about boundaries, which you mentioned,

I would strongly urge you to learn about narcissists games, and how to deal with them.  (in many cases - it's completely cutting them off.)

[cave canem]

22 hours ago, SKL said:

Meanwhile, I would check every library book for notes upon checkout, and I would tell the offending relatives that you are doing this.  I would document your notice in some way so they cannot pretend to be surprised and hurt and cry to your kids about it in the future.

As long as I could intercept the notes before my children found them, I would not tip off the offenders.  Aside from being something to document, the notes give you insight about the relatives' intentions/strategy.  If you close off that avenue to your children, the relatives might find another one that you cannot so easily monitor.