measles outbreak...

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, Cecropia said:

 

I don't know... I don't think the analogy works.  I choose to travel in a car or not travel in a car, and the accompanying laws apply only if I perform the action.  I choose whether to build/live in a place with building codes or a place without them (there are a many rural areas in the U.S. which have none or close to it).  No action on my part means no compulsion.  Truly mandatory vaccination wouldn't involve an intial action on the recipient's (or their guardian's) part at all... Being alive = getting vaccinated.  Not doing so leads to fines/prison time/loss of parental rights?

 

So again, those who aren’t vaccinated can choose to withdraw from society and go off grid in the woods instead of coming to play in the same park as my child or going to Disneyland.

[Murphy101]

20 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

So again, those who aren’t vaccinated can choose to withdraw from society and go off grid in the woods instead of coming to play in the same park as my child or going to Disneyland.

 

Sooo pregnant women shouldn’t go to the park if their booster came due while they are pregnant?

Sooo kids with chronic illnesses or life threatening allergies to substances in some vaccines - they can’t go to the park?

Who will be policing this? Maybe vaccines should be chipped or have a dye in them, only those with the ink stain on the arm or chip can freely travel about through check stations.

[ktgrok]

I think my mind broke regarding all this when I hit the argument that the benefit of getting a disease is not getting the disease again. Um...once is bad enough, thank you very much. 0<1 last I checked. 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Roadrunner]

30 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Sooo pregnant women shouldn’t go to the park if their booster came due while they are pregnant?

Sooo kids with chronic illnesses or life threatening allergies to substances in some vaccines - they can’t go to the park?

Who will be policing this? Maybe vaccines should be chipped or have a dye in them, only those with the ink stain on the arm or chip can freely travel about through check stations.

 

Those are people protected because healthy people are vaccinated. Herd immunity anybody?  That’s the entire point. There are always going to be people who have medical issues and will rely on our protection. By vaccinating healthy humans, we protect those who are vaccinated along with those who can’t be. 

I think my point was clear. I was trying to show that analogies can be made to extremes if one chooses. 

[Bluegoat]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think my mind broke regarding all this when I hit the argument that the benefit of getting a disease is not getting the disease again. Um...once is bad enough, thank you very much. 0<1 last I checked. 

 

 

Yeah, kind of bizzare.

The benefit of measles is not getting it again.  One or two deaths per 1000 in developed countries, plus a buggered immune system.

The benefit of the vaccine is not getting measles.  Way less than one death per 1000 kids who get the vaccination. No buggered immune system.

 

[Skippy]

18 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think my mind broke regarding all this when I hit the argument that the benefit of getting a disease is not getting the disease again...

I think this was a pretty common idea actually. You get an illness when you are young that doesn't usually have many terrible, lasting effects, like chicken pox or mumps, and then you have immunity and don't get it when you are older (or pregnant, for example) when there can be more complications. I think that is the meaning. 

[ktgrok]

9 minutes ago, Skippy said:

I think this was a pretty common idea actually. You get an illness when you are young that doesn't usually have many terrible, lasting effects, like chicken pox or mumps, and then you have immunity and don't get it when you are older (or pregnant, for example) when there can be more complications. I think that is the meaning. 

And that would be a valid argument if we had older and pregnant people getting measles all the time, because of vaccines wearing off. And yet, that isn't happening. Seems like vaccination works to give you immunity without actually having to get measles first. It makes sense in a sort of theoretical way, but in practicality we don't have an epidemic of adult, fully vaccinated, measles patients. 

Same with the argument that pertussis vaccination is bad because then you go around spreading the disease to babies without realizing it. Except, we are not seeing that happen. What we are seeing is that vaccinating the masses prevents significant pertussis illness and death in most people, including the unvaccinated. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Bluegoat]

35 minutes ago, Skippy said:

I think this was a pretty common idea actually. You get an illness when you are young that doesn't usually have many terrible, lasting effects, like chicken pox or mumps, and then you have immunity and don't get it when you are older (or pregnant, for example) when there can be more complications. I think that is the meaning. 

 

Well, people did it for cp.  I am not sure they did for measles, I've read a fair number of older books that talk about doing things like sending kids who hadn't yet been exposed in a family away while a sibling was in quarantine for measles.  I think people thought that it was fairly serious.  Heck - putting quarantine signs on people's doors and telling them no one in the house can go out unless they are not a potential carrier is pretty serious in itself.

But even if they did do it before there was a vaccination, it doesn't make much sense once there is one.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Bluegoat
atrocious grammatical error

[maize]

I'm lying here too sick to get out of bed today (nothing major, respiratory thing with cough and fever, could be flu but if so less severe than other strains I have had) and wondering how folks can worry so much about negative impacts of vaccines such as heightened inflammation in the body and not worry about the much higher inflammation levels caused by a disease itself. No vaccine (and I've had a lot, grew up moving around the world and was vaccinated for stuff that is not usually a problem in the US) has ever made me feel this sick and yet this is just a run of the mill virus that my body will fight off in a few days. 

I'm going to trust my body that the wild virus that puts me flat on my back in bed is worse for me than a shot that leaves me with a bit of a sore arm and slightly elevated fever.

[Lady Florida.]

21 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I think the three that astound me the most, people being against them, is tetanus, diptheria, and polio.

Polio - I guess "bring back the iron lung" is the mantra of those against that vaccine. I don't know what else to say.  No cure, high mortality rate, debilitating to survivors, no cure. When the NIH says treatment is "bed rest, pain relievers, and portable ventilators" note the lack of anything else, then it seems to me one would be really NOT wanting their child to get polio. I watched dh's aunt drag a foot, leaning on a cane, in chronic, awful pain for decades due to polio as a child. No thanks. Polio is spread through contaminated water and food. Well contrary to the popular belief of deniers, guess what, we have plenty of that in the US these days so it wouldn't take much to get an epidemic started.

 

But my niece thinks she can cure them all with vitamin c and veggie smoothies. Sigh..........

My brother's ex mil is in her 80s and she had polio as a child. She's one of the lucky ones who survived. However, she walks with a limp and has only partial use of her left hand. I don't understand why people are against vaccines. Unless it's collective societal memory loss. It floors me.

My cousin's daughter sounds a lot like your niece. Sigh.

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I havent read this entire thread, but I have noticed my 18 year old and others his age are pro vaccine.  He is the one who got his first flu shot ever when he turned 18.  And even though he had a fairly severe adverse reaction he is still planning to get flu shots in the future.  So I imagine the tide is turning.  

 

 

I certainly hope that's true.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The news had to explain last night that minors still have to have parental approval for vaccinations. This is due to the number of teenagers in this state who are trying to get the healthcare (Ie vaccinations) that their parents have neglected. 

[Pen]

13 hours ago, Eliana said:

Although I agree that questioning whether the increase in the number of vaccines might be a factor in the increase in certain chronic health issues is intriguing and I am certainly open to considering the possibility, having the question is not at all the same as having any evidence at all that there is even a correlation let alone some type of causal relationship.

 

Before it would reasonable to take vaccine-related action based on such nebulous theorizing, we really evidence of at least a possible correlation.   There are many, fairly vague, speculations about dietary or environmental factors that some hypothesize might be factors instead (or as well).  There is no concrete reason or mechanism why vaccines would be responsible, it is still at the tossing ideas around stage - or the vague fear mongering stage in some spaces - to reasonably consider it, we need research, with thoughtful study designs and rigorous data analysis.

The now debunked speculation that there could be a linkage between the MMR vaccine and incidence of autism was an equally intriguing suggestion worthy of exploration, but, as it turns out, not at all supported by the data.   That there are questions doesn't mean we can or should change health care policies based on them - that would be irresponsible from a public health standpoint - rather we need to look at how we can answer the questions.  We might discover some correlation, or we might realize that there is no connection at all... and we can hash out the various competing needs and goods when or if we have new information.

I have to admit, though, that as I have read more about vaccine hesitancy, I am really struggling with the potential reverberations of even studying some of these questions.   I have long wished we had better evidence for a specific schedule of vaccines, and with many parents experiencing hesitancy around this question, and, often, already delaying some vaccines, it seems a potentially valuable area to explore (with careful consideration of potential ethical concerns - any randomized control trial I can think of would be a bioethically untenable, but an observation study could be valuable, though complicated to get good matching).  But would doing so lend credence to claims that the current schedule is unsafe?   And could looking at the question of chronic health rates and/or autoimmune disorders, just open the door to more egregious misreadings and confusion?  This discussion, both here and more broadly, is a mess.  How can we have meaningful discussion of these (and other) important issues with so many 'alternative facts' being brought in and so few people well equipped to evaluate research and its claims?   On the other hand, how can we move forward if questioning and experiencing concerns is not respected and valued?   There was a time when concerns about DDT were dismissed scornfully by government experts and scientists.   ....research, of course, validated those concerns, but would the questions have been less valuable had they been proven groundless?   How can we navigate the tricky, messy, complicated dialectic?   It isn't about finding a middle ground - which is often a massive cop out when important things are at stake, but it is about holding multiple possibilities and looking at things with nuance (as many here have, repeatedly, tried to do!).  

Sorry - it has been a long, painful day (I, too, have chronic health issues which are looming discouragingly large in my life right now) and I'm also struggling (again!) with how to keep fighting for better tomorrows on a number of fronts (I will spare you the politics pieces) while being real about how unlikely it is that my efforts will bear much visible fruit in my lifetime, and for some of the issues I'm fighting for, there isn't time for a long game.   ...and the very morass we have with this issue plays out over and over again on other issues I hold dear, and I am heartsore and weary. 

 

 

Though you apologized at end for being tired after long day, I think this is an excellent post and very good food for thought.

I wrote what was a way too long reply.  And have cut it down, a good bit, though still long.  Cut out was part of what I learned from researchers about possible mechanisms between vaccines and autoimmunity.  

For some people like Aidan Quinn to name someone in the public arena rather than personal situations I know about, the connection between MMR and autism has not been debunked.  They had a normal, speaking, child before vaccination.  After vaccination their daughter became severely impaired and in terrible pain. Now they have a nonverbal, apparently “autistic “ young adult.  As of 2018 I read an interview where he still considers the MMR his daughter received to be the cause. 

The issues about autoimmunity aren’t merely flights of fancy speculation.  There is correlation.  There may not be causation.  There is “speculation” in a scientific sense, about specific mechanisms that may relate vaccines (and also things like chemicals from “sick buildings” or foreign matter from microbes like borellia) to autoimmunity.  And as with many illnesses (such as pneumonia) there may not be a single cause. 

I don’t know whether the current vaccination schedule is safe or unsafe.  I think letting people look into that for themselves and decide whether to go with the current recommendations or to space out more widely or not to vaccinate at all for diseases that are not frequently deadly as small pox or as debilitating as polio is reasonable.

I wish that mixed vaccines like MMR were available as its individual parts.  

I hope that some excellent prospective studies will be done—by scientists who are funded independently of both pharmaceutical industry and any special interest groups and who truly want unbiased answers. 

 I am, personally, very much against a change in policy to force people into vaccination for themselves or their children for mumps, measles, chicken pox type of illnesses.  

 

[DesertBlossom]

46 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And that would be a valid argument if we had older and pregnant people getting measles all the time, because of vaccines wearing off. And yet, that isn't happening. Seems like vaccination works to give you immunity without actually having to get measles first. It makes sense in a sort of theoretical way, but in practicality we don't have an epidemic of adult, fully vaccinated, measles patients. 

Same with the argument that pertussis vaccination is bad because then you go around spreading the disease to babies without realizing it. Except, we are not seeing that happen. What we are seeing is that vaccinating the masses prevents significant pertussis illness and death in most people, including the unvaccinated. 

This is precisely why there is a push for adults to get boosters, because they do see adults getting these diseases. I know there's been a huge push for pertussis for parents and grandparents to protect their babies. 

Mumps outbreaks sometimes happen on college campuses in highly vaccinated populations. And the risk of long-term complications like sterility is much higher when you're older. Diseases that are generally mild in healthy kids have more risks the older you get. 

[DesertBlossom]

50 minutes ago, maize said:

I'm lying here too sick to get out of bed today (nothing major, respiratory thing with cough and fever, could be flu but if so less severe than other strains I have had) and wondering how folks can worry so much about negative impacts of vaccines such as heightened inflammation in the body and not worry about the much higher inflammation levels caused by a disease itself. No vaccine (and I've had a lot, grew up moving around the world and was vaccinated for stuff that is not usually a problem in the US) has ever made me feel this sick and yet this is just a run of the mill virus that my body will fight off in a few days. 

I'm going to trust my body that the wild virus that puts me flat on my back in bed is worse for me than a shot that leaves me with a bit of a sore arm and slightly elevated fever.

It's always a gamble though. If one could guarantee you never had more than a fever and a sore arm, the decision would be easy. But every once in a while, even for people who previously had the shot with no reaction, someone ends up with life-long complications because of it. There is a tendency in our medical community to turn a blind eye to vaccine reactions and pass them off as coincidence. Or to say that moderate to severe reactions are "normal." 

[Momto6inIN]

14 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

You know, we insist on a lot of things. Say I am forced to wear a seat belt even if I wish to risk my life and a life of my child. I am forced by building codes to do a awful lot for the reason of safety. Insisting on vaccinating against deadly diseases doesn't sound crazy to me. This argument of "I can do whatever I want" simply doesn't fly. You can chose to not operate or treat a disease, but not vaccinating a child creates public health menace, a serious one, so yes, I believe I have a right to insist on it. 

 

I fully support France's policy on vaccinations.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-vaccination-mandatory-2018-next-year-children-health-measles-dying-anti-vaxxers-edouard-a7824246.html

 

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 

So again, those who aren’t vaccinated can choose to withdraw from society and go off grid in the woods instead of coming to play in the same park as my child or going to Disneyland.

Standard disclaimer: My kids are fully vaxxed on schedule because I think it's smart thing to do. I learned about it and came to the conclusion that the benefits to both my kids and society as a whole far outweigh the small risks.

But the above just floors me. Seat belt laws and building codes are part of privileges that we choose to engage in and they do not infringe on my personal body interior. Parks and Disneyland are public spaces open to all who can pay the fee with very specific laws about equal protection applying and I don't think laws saying "these people can come in but these people can't" are a slope we want to be on. But a government official telling me I have to allow them to inject my own or my child's body/privacy with whatever they tell me to or risk legal action ... no way. I think anti vaxxers are making a poor decision based on fear and sketchy science, but by golly they have the right to do so.

[Bluegoat]

Sure there is speculation about vaccinations and autoimmune diseases. Also - pesticides, chemicals in soap, GMOs, tomatoes ad eggplants, .........

There are a gazillion things that might be related.  

[DesertBlossom]

4 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

Sure there is speculation about vaccinations and autoimmune diseases. Also - pesticides, chemicals in soap, GMOs, tomatoes ad eggplants, .........

There are a gazillion things that might be related.  

While I agree that there are multiple triggers, it is far more than just speculation about whether vaccines can trigger autoimmunity. 

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

This is precisely why there is a push for adults to get boosters, because they do see adults getting these diseases. I know there's been a huge push for pertussis for parents and grandparents to protect their babies. 

Mumps outbreaks sometimes happen on college campuses in highly vaccinated populations. And the risk of long-term complications like sterility is much higher when you're older. Diseases that are generally mild in healthy kids have more risks the older you get. 

Yes, mumps is known to have less effectiveness than measles vaccination, about 88 percent, versus over 95 percent. Still enough to prevent epidemics. It does seem, also, from what i read about the outbreaks of mumps, that we may end up giving another booster to teens or college students, as the majority of outbreaks seem to be in college situations (lots of spit swapping, close quarters, etc). 

But we were talking about measles, which doesn't seem to have the same issue to the same extent. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

While I agree that there are multiple triggers, it is far more than just speculation about whether vaccines can trigger autoimmunity. 

They can. So can infections. 

[DesertBlossom]

15 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

They can. So can infections. 

I know that infections can as well. But the rates of all auto-immune diseases are rising so it is clearly more than just infections. There is a lot of research into autoimmunity and vaccines, and how certain ingredients affect our immune systems. 

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

So wait, the benefit of getting measles once is not getting measles twice? Versus vaccination, where you don't get measles at all?

 

don't forget the compromised immune system that comes with measles...

in the past I had a compromised immune system that was horrid the first year  then gradually improved over the next FOUR years.  (measles the average is three years.)  I don't recommend, and am speechless anyone would risk that happening to their child.  My health has never been the same.

2 hours ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

This blows me away.  I've already got it on the calendar till when our next tetanus is due lol. 

We are selective vaxxers. Which basically means - we do all of them except flu shot and Gardasil. We skip those two because of the low effectiveness/actual risk vs. benefit, and because of other effective preventative methods/transmission modes. It's a highly researched/educated decision using CDCs own data. 

I agree with other comments - the anti-vaccine movement today has little to do with Autism and everything to do with shortfalls in the medical establishment themselves. Their refusal to acknowledge very real risks and side effects, thinking it will make people feel safer, has backfired, big time. 

huh.  I've never thought of skipping those as "selective".  I have had the flu shot exactly twice.  (once when my immune system was compromised - and I got the flu TWICE that season. I *know* it kept me out of the hospital.)  

 

(eta: bolded correction. my new laptop seems to have a mind of its own in some things....) 

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Well, people did it for cp.  I am not sure they did for measles, I've read a fair number of older books that talk about doing things like sending kids who hadn't yet been exposed in a family away while a sibling was in quarantine for measles.  I think people thought that it was fairly serious.  Heck - putting quarantine signs on people's doors and telling them no one in the house can go out unless they are not a potential carrier is pretty serious in itself.

But even if they did do it before there was a vaccination, it doesn't make much sense once there is one.

that had this on an episode of the brady bunch.  that was 60's/70's.   that was where I first learned about quarantining - people forget that was "a thing".   they didn't want diseases to spread through communities. they quarantined.

Abigail Adams had her children inoculated (very primitive mind you) for small pox in the 1770s!   so, trying to prevent disease is hardly a 20th century "thing". (let alone 21st).

1 hour ago, maize said:

I'm lying here too sick to get out of bed today (nothing major, respiratory thing with cough and fever, could be flu but if so less severe than other strains I have had) and wondering how folks can worry so much about negative impacts of vaccines such as heightened inflammation in the body and not worry about the much higher inflammation levels caused by a disease itself. No vaccine (and I've had a lot, grew up moving around the world and was vaccinated for stuff that is not usually a problem in the US) has ever made me feel this sick and yet this is just a run of the mill virus that my body will fight off in a few days. 

I'm going to trust my body that the wild virus that puts me flat on my back in bed is worse for me than a shot that leaves me with a bit of a sore arm and slightly elevated fever.

my condolences.  I've got it too.  my skin hurts... thanks 1ds for bringing it home from the university...  and yeah, this is just a minor virus in the grand scheme of things.

Edited February 6, 2019 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I know that infections can as well. But the rates of all auto-immune diseases are rising so it is clearly more than just infections. There is a lot of research into autoimmunity and vaccines, and how certain ingredients affect our immune systems. 

hashimoto's is an autoimmune disorder.  what makes it worse or better - is diet.  western diet has changed significantly.  processed food instead of fresh is the rule, not the exception.  and frankly - I think it is diet that is causing the rise in autoimmune disorders.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

hashimoto's is an autoimmune disorder.  what makes it worse or better - is diet.  western diet has changed significantly.  processed food instead of fresh is the rule, not the exception.  and frankly - I think it is diet that is causing the rise in autoimmune disorders.

Probably gut microbiome, to be specific, which is largely, but not totally, related to diet. Certain diets feed better gut bacteria than others. 

Also leaky gut possibly caused by things like ibuprofen. 

Plus genetics....people with autoimmune disease like Type 1 diabetes , now live long enough to have children, who then have a genetic predisposition to a whole host of autoimmune diseases themselves. Before, they often died before reproducing, thus keeping down the genetic potential within the population. Same thing with some food allergies. If someone is likely to die of anaphylaxis from a food exposure, before there were treatments, they likely didn't live to pass on those tendencies to offspring. Now, they do. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Pawz4me]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

hashimoto's is an autoimmune disorder.  what makes it worse or better - is diet.  western diet has changed significantly.  processed food instead of fresh is the rule, not the exception.  and frankly - I think it is diet that is causing the rise in autoimmune disorders.

I feel almost 100 percent sure that severe stress was the trigger for both of my AI diagnoses.

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Probably gut microbiome, to be specific, which is largely, but not totally, related to diet. Certain diets feed better gut bacteria than others. 

Also leaky gut possibly caused by things like ibuprofen. 

Plus genetics....people with autoimmune disease like Type 1 diabetes , now live long enough to have children, who then have a genetic predisposition to a whole host of autoimmune diseases themselves. Before, they often died before reproducing, thus keeping down the genetic potential within the population. Same thing with some food allergies. If someone is likely to die of anaphylaxis from a food exposure, before there were treatments, they likely didn't live to pass on those tendencies to offspring. Now, they do. 

yes - I agree.   gut makes a huge difference (and diet affects gut). 

it's having autoimmune issues automatically blamed on vaccines when diet is a KNOWN factor in autoimmune stuff.  (just really annoying.)

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I feel almost 100 percent sure that severe stress was the trigger for both of my AI diagnoses.

stress raises cortisol,  which then cascades down the line and can cause other systems to have reduced function (or worse.)

I had my years of stress, and still fight with my adrenals.  best wishes on improving health.

 

eta: I wanted to add, stress uses so many b-vitamins, it can have a whole host of cascading effects down the line.   it's more complex than that, but...

Edited February 6, 2019 by gardenmom5

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I think my mind broke regarding all this when I hit the argument that the benefit of getting a disease is not getting the disease again. Um...once is bad enough, thank you very much. 0<1 last I checked. 

 

Well it's better to get it while young than when older.  The vax doesn't protect the way natural immunity does.  So as I get older I might be at risk of getting a very severe case (because it's not like everyone understands vax effectiveness, checks their titers, and gets re-vaccinated later in life).  Natural immunity is a benefit to weigh against the other risks and benefits being considered.  (More arguable for diseases like chickenpox, but still not wrong.)

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yeah, kind of bizzare.

The benefit of measles is not getting it again.  One or two deaths per 1000 in developed countries, plus a buggered immune system.

The benefit of the vaccine is not getting measles.  Way less than one death per 1000 kids who get the vaccination. No buggered immune system.

 

In the past 10 years it's been 1 in 2000 for the USA.  And maybe it would be 1 in 10,000 if there had been 10,000 cases.  Measles is treatable and the serious complications are manageable / preventable for the most part.

As for "buggered immune system," how come none of the older adults I know have this problem?  Not one.  The only people I know with immune-system related problems are younger people who most likely had the vax.

 

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

And that would be a valid argument if we had older and pregnant people getting measles all the time, because of vaccines wearing off. And yet, that isn't happening. Seems like vaccination works to give you immunity without actually having to get measles first. It makes sense in a sort of theoretical way, but in practicality we don't have an epidemic of adult, fully vaccinated, measles patients.

Essentially 100% of Americans over age 60 have natural immunity.  We'll see how the above quoted paragraph holds up as my generation ages.

Edited February 6, 2019 by SKL

[maize]

43 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

hashimoto's is an autoimmune disorder.  what makes it worse or better - is diet.  western diet has changed significantly.  processed food instead of fresh is the rule, not the exception.  and frankly - I think it is diet that is causing the rise in autoimmune disorders.

My mom has hashimotos; she tried taking the medication the doctor prescribed and it made her feel awful, so she manages it with diet instead.

[maize]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

In the past 10 years it's been 1 in 2000 for the USA.  And maybe it would be 1 in 10,000 if there had been 10,000 cases.  Measles is treatable and the serious complications are manageable / preventable for the most part.

As for "buggered immune system," how come none of the older adults I know have this problem?  Not one.  The only people I know with immune-system related problems are younger people who most likely had the vax.

 

My mom is an older adult with autoimmune problems.

My MiL had them as well.

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

In the past 10 years it's been 1 in 2000 for the USA.  And maybe it would be 1 in 10,000 if there had been 10,000 cases.  Measles is treatable and the serious complications are manageable / preventable for the most part.

As for "buggered immune system," how come none of the older adults I know have this problem?  Not one.  The only people I know with immune-system related problems are younger people who most likely had the vax.

 

because you're not on a support group for people with "buggered immune system"? (another board where the only two things in common are the "buggered immune system" and speaking English)  MOST are older.

[Bluegoat]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

In the past 10 years it's been 1 in 2000 for the USA.  And maybe it would be 1 in 10,000 if there had been 10,000 cases.  Measles is treatable and the serious complications are manageable / preventable for the most part.

As for "buggered immune system," how come none of the older adults I know have this problem?  Not one.  The only people I know with immune-system related problems are younger people who most likely had the vax.

 

 

Actually it seems to be the case that there may be an increase with older people as well. For example, they've recently realised that there is an increase in allergies appearing in adults as well as children.  

[ktgrok]

39 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

As for "buggered immune system," how come none of the older adults I know have this problem?  Not one.  The only people I know with immune-system related problems are younger people who most likely had the vax.

 

If you mean the near erasure of the immune system after measles infection, it lasts 2-3 years, so if they had measles decades ago, of course you wouldn't see it now. If you mean autoimmune disease, lots of older people have them. Rheumatoid arthritis and thyroid being probably the two most commonly diagnoses, but others as well. Including allergies and asthma and Crohn's, etc. 

[Ausmumof3]

19 hours ago, Tap said:

One thing I think is a bit interesting about this thread....

I live in Vancouver Wa. The epicenter of this outbreak.  I have 3 kids, 24, 20 and 12. I have seen many doctors in the Oregon/Washington area over 24 years. We have always been educated on vaccines by every practice. Every question I asked was answered adequately. We have done some vaccines on schedule, some delayed and some omitted by choice. I have never had a doctor question or coerce me to vaccinate outside of my comfort zone. Offer, and educate...always.

I work in a vaccinating pharmacy and have helped to vaccinate thousands of people.  I am well educated on vaccinations.

Those who feel that doctors could do more, should do more, to offer educated choices are right. But do realize....that when doctors give that choice to parents, sometimes those parents are going to choose to skip or delay vaccinations. Right now, Clark County Washington (and the rest of the nation) is seeing what happens when too many do the latter and we start to lose herd immunity.  

Personal choice regarding vaccination is an amazing privilege. That privilege is coming at a price to the community as a whole right now. 

I agree 90pc with what you say but I feel like the ability to choose whether or not your receive medical treatment of any form is always a basic human right not a privilege.  Bodily autonomy and all that.

of course there are exceptions with mental illness, dementia etc where it’s severe enough that a power of attorney is involved or whatever the right word is.  But I don’t want to live in a world where the government has the right to force any kind of medical intervention against the patients will even something as minor as vaccination.

partly maybe because I do have a distant friend with a vaccine injured child.  It took a very long time before it was acknowledged and he would have been forced to have the follow up vaccination under this scheme because it was still being denied that vaccine was the cause.

[moonflower]

I seriously doubt whether the US government is ever going to mandate vaccination just for existing.  I shouldn't say ever, I guess.  But it is pretty contrary to the essential character of the country.

[Ausmumof3]

45 minutes ago, moonflower said:

I seriously doubt whether the US government is ever going to mandate vaccination just for existing.  I shouldn't say ever, I guess.  But it is pretty contrary to the essential character of the country.

Yeah probably.  Our country made one of the social security payments dependent on vaccination.  It’s not compulsory but for some families it probably basically makes it compulsory.  

Again im not at all anti vaccination.  I do think that taking a coercive approach probably just makes those who are suspicious even more suspicious.  Taking more time and making more effort to educate would be more helpful.  For those who are just lazy coercion may help possibly but maybe just making the process easier for everyone could help with that too.  It’s pretty available here through public services but still may be difficult for those without transport or ESL parents to figure out.  I don’t know.  I guess without thorough research into reasons for declining vaccination it’s hard to figure out the best strategy.

[Pen]

@gardenmom5 and @Medicmom2.0  (hope I got right people tagged- the ones who posted concern about measles and problems with being vaccinated)

 

in case yhis might help with regard to helping to reduce side effects of vaccinations for people who want to vaccinate: http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v12n16.shtml

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

@gardenmom5 and @Medicmom2.0  (hope I got right people tagged- the ones who posted concern about measles and problems with being vaccinated)

 

in case yhis might help with regard to helping to reduce side effects of vaccinations for people who want to vaccinate: http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v12n16.shtml

Not me.  We vax for mmr here.

I had as comprised immune system from another virus, and it lasted years.  It also inhibited my ability to parent my children. 

Measles damages the immune system,  and it can be compromised for three years.  That's a long time in the life of a child.  I can't understand why someone would risk that.

 

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

If you mean the near erasure of the immune system after measles infection, it lasts 2-3 years, so if they had measles decades ago, of course you wouldn't see it now. 

Anecdotally, when I hear older generations of people talk about the childhood diseases they got, the list almost always starts with measles, and it's not unusual for it to be followed by several diseases they got in the same year after they got measles. My mom got measles, mumps, and chicken pox all in the same year (as did her sibling).

 

[Melissa in Australia]

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

that had this on an episode of the brady bunch.  that was 60's/70's.   that was where I first learned about quarantining - people forget that was "a thing".   they didn't want diseases to spread through communities. they quarantined.

 

The year when I was a child with measles some of my siblings had mumps. The whole family of then 6 kids were in quarantine for close to 6 weeks. as one then the next came down with one or another. My mum ended up putting us all in a big bed so we could get it over and done with. boy were we ill. 

[MercyA]

****DON'T QUOTE PLEASE.****

I'm not totally caught up on this thread yet--I think I'm still back at pg. 6 or so. :) 

We do a delayed vac schedule. My DD is up to date on some but not all of the recommended vaccines. After reading through this thread, I asked my husband if we should go ahead and do the MMR, and he said, yes, he was going to mention it to me. I knew I wanted DD to have it before she was married, anyway, for the rubella portion. I mentioned to my DD that there have been measles outbreaks and she said she didn't want to get the measles. I told her she could get the vaccine and after some thought (and a little bribe from me), she said, yes, she wanted it--just like she did when she learned there was a chicken pox vaccine available. She wanted it done ASAP so she didn't have to worry about it, and I was actually able to get her in today, about an hour after our discussion. Love small town doctors. We could have gone in a little sooner but we had brownies in the oven. :) 

All good, right? Except for one thing. When she was born, we *explicitly* told the hospital, verbally and in writing, that we did *not* want her to have Hep B at that time. We actually kept her with us continually because we didn't trust them. The one time she was away from me was to have her hearing test done--and my husband went with her but had to stand outside the room. Well, lo and behold, our state registry says she had Hep B a day after she was born. I'm not upset at this point that she's had it--I'm just really ticked off that they injected our daughter KNOWING that we didn't want it and didn't tell us. The arrogance! It's no surprise to me that people don't trust medical professionals when they pull #&%* like that. 😠Grrrrr.

****PLEASE DON'T QUOTE.**** 😊I don't much care but my DH doesn't like medical info on the web. I'll delete later. 

[moonflower]

Bah, I think it's more than just arrogance, I think it is really seriously unprofessional and should maybe even verge on illegal to deliberately give someone a vaccine or medical procedure they didn't explicitly approve (assuming they or their responsible party is in a condition to be able to make decisions).

A nurse once gave me demerol after labor to calm the shakes so they could get a good blood pressure.  She pushed it in my IV, then said something like, "I'm giving you demerol to reduce the shaking so we can get a good blood pressure, that's okay right?" and I said (I was on narcotics obviously or I wouldn't have responded like this), "well, it wouldn't make a difference if I hadn't wanted it, huh?".  I liked her and wasn't angry, I was just being direct because of the drugs.  anyway, she up and disappeared and I never saw her again.  It was not a shift change or anything.  I think she must have realized she did something some people would complain about and was hoping to avoid trouble, I'm not sure.  I wouldn't have complained about this (because I would have consented to the demerol) but if someone had given HepB against my will I think I would have made a fuss.

 

[DesertBlossom]

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

yes - I agree.   gut makes a huge difference (and diet affects gut). 

it's having autoimmune issues automatically blamed on vaccines when diet is a KNOWN factor in autoimmune stuff.  (just really annoying.)

It's also really annoying to have your autoimmune disease blamed on diet when you're 23 months old, breastfed for 14 months and eating homemade baby food. 

There are multiple triggers for autoimmune diseases. And I imagine for every person who develops an autoimmune disease, they were several environmental and genetic factors leading up to whatever the final trigger may have been. There is some interesting research on aluminum and other adjuvants and autoimmune diseases. Here is some light reading for those interested. (Admittedly, I did not make it all the way through that book before my inter-library loan due date came up)

Edited February 7, 2019 by DesertBlossom

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

It's also really annoying to have your autoimmune disease blamed on diet when you're 23 months old, breastfed for 14 months and eating homemade baby food. 

There are multiple triggers for autoimmune diseases. And I imagine for every person who develops an autoimmune disease, they were several environmental and genetic factors leading up to whatever the final trigger may have been. 

I wasn't trying to say that diet causes all autoimmune disease, but that it plays a large role in gut health, which can be a factor in autoimmune diseases. There are a myriad of possible triggers, diet is but one, and even thenprobbly only sets the stage, rather than pulling the trigger. 

My son was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease last week, at age 6, and I'm definitely not blaming him or anyone for it. Just saying that diet is one factor. We have no idea what all the factors are yet. 

[DesertBlossom]

@MercyA The infuriating part about stories like yours is that if your child had had a severe reaction, you would not have immediately known what was causing it.  Or if you had decided just to wait a few weeks and then gotten her the shot yourself, she would have been double-dosed. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

I wasn't trying to say that diet causes all autoimmune disease, but that it plays a large role in gut health, which can be a factor in autoimmune diseases. There are a myriad of possible triggers, diet is but one, and even thenprobbly only sets the stage, rather than pulling the trigger. 

My son was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease last week, at age 6, and I'm definitely not blaming him or anyone for it. Just saying that diet is one factor. We have no idea what all the factors are yet. 

Not to mention the high incidence of genetic factors in autoimmune diseases - which affect a lot of babies whether they are vaccinated or breastfed. 

[gardenmom5]

16 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

It's also really annoying to have your autoimmune disease blamed on diet when you're 23 months old, breastfed for 14 months and eating homemade baby food. 

There are multiple triggers for autoimmune diseases. And I imagine for every person who develops an autoimmune disease, they were several environmental and genetic factors leading up to whatever the final trigger may have been. There is some interesting research on aluminum and other adjuvants and autoimmune diseases. Here is some light reading for those interested. (Admittedly, I did not make it all the way through that book before my inter-library loan due date came up)

I said it was a factor.

based on this response, I, gently, conclude you don't know what "factor" means.

definition:

1. a circumstance, fact, or influence that contributes to a result or outcome.

2. a number or quantity that when multiplied with another produces a given number or expression

3. any of a number of substances in the blood, mostly identified by numerals, which are involved in coagulation

 

iow: it is "one part" of an equation - not the sum of all the factors.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

 

It is also possible that your wishes were respected but the record was wrongly marked to say otherwise.

[moonflower]

Just now, SKL said:

It is also possible that your wishes were respected but the record was wrongly marked to say otherwise.

 

That would just be incompetence instead of deliberately performing an unwanted medical procedure, not great but I guess not as bad?