measles outbreak...

[Tanaqui]

Quote

The Great Brain, By John D Fitzgerald, published in 1967 describes his brother's being put to bed with him to catch the mumps. While it is "fiction", it is based on his growing up years.  Maybe loosely and maybe that scene is not based on truth but I just think it is interesting as everyone is saying that the idea of getting these diseases over with younger and all at once on purpose is being touted as a more modern phenomenon.  I wish I could think of other examples in literature but I did remember this one and went to look it up for sure and it is there.  I have a picture of the page if anyone wants it

 

Yes, but that's just him and his brothers. When he goes and deliberately visits a friend under quarantine so he can be the first one sick for a change he certainly doesn't tell his parents! And when his brothers find out they are Not Happy.

It's one thing to fatalistically accept that once your eldest has mumps, the rest are bound to get it too. It's quite another to deliberately go visiting people under quarantine in the hopes that your child will get infected.

 

[Halftime Hope]

Several random thoughts:  PLEASE DON'T QUOTE; I don't mind if you copy/paste a sentence or two.

I am very much a "weigh the risk/benefit vaxxer", as we have some health issues that put us in higher risk categories.  Several people on this thread have been very rude and bigoted in their characterization of anti-vaxxers. You can be that way if you want, but all it is doing is generating heat, not light. I'm sure there are anti-vaxxers like Faith Manor's niece, but all the very reluctant vaxxers I know wear the mantle heavily, coming to their choice only after much research, consultation, and thoughtful deliberation. A number of the ones I know came to vaccine hesitancy or refusal only after a vaccine injury, in the same way that many mothers come to homebirth only after a hospital birth that they perceive as a disaster. ( I would be an exception to both, coming to my unorthodox POV without it being a reactionary choice.)

1) I wonder:  a) is there is a real difference in the virulence of wild measles today, vs. a generation ago? or b) do people have much weaker immune systems? or c) is it strictly a perception that measles are so God-awful, but really they are the same, and it's only our tolerance levels that have decreased?  (A bit of S/o from the risk aversion thread, I guess.) Any older ladies here -- with first-hand experience over a couple generations-- that have an opinion on it?  

2) FWIW: I've passed along most of my pediatric reference books, but one I couldn't part with says that measles is a "relatively benign" childhood disease.  I had measles, mumps, and CP as a young child. I remember none of them. I have about a dozen pox scars, but nothing else.  None of them were serious.  OTOH, I got vaccinated for everything under the sun (international travel) multiple times, as did my brother.  However, we've both had early onset cancers in a family with no cancer history, all of which indicates immune failure on some level. We both had childhoods full of clean organic food, heavy amounts of fresh fruit and veggies, and no known massive exposures to carcinogens. 

3) I personally know three separate MDs who have become, if not anti-vax, at least delayed/selective vax.  One was the chief of peds at a large metro hospital when my children were of pediatric age. It would be untruthful to say they were ignorant or incapable of drawing sound conclusions, therefore they should be ridiculed, scorned, or marginalized, the way some here have treated posters on this thread who are not pro-vax.

4) No one has mentioned the financial incentives given to doctors to fully vaccinate kids on a schedule.  I don't like to think that the $ drives many peds, but one estimates that in his practice, by forfeiting incentives from the vaccine companies of $400 per kid, he has lost about a half million dollars, since he doesn't mandate full vaccination for all his patients.

5) My 16 year old teen and I went in for a consultation for a swollen lymph node with the one doc in our family practice who saw more children than not. (It was her first time to see a doc in the family practice dh and I frequent, as she had aged out of seeing the peds docs who never cared that we didn't vax very much.) He wrote her script, asked about vaccinating her with gardasil, and she told him she was sexually inactive. He asked to talk with her privately, I left the room, and she still declined the vax. When we came back for a followup, he was happy with the lymph node, but asked about the vax again. I told him we were not inclined as she had no medical need for it at this point, and he politely asked that we not return to see him again, as our vaccine philosophy did not mesh with his.  So yeah, we've been dismissed for declining a vaccination we didn't need. Ironically, four months later I took her in to my GP in the practice, as we needed to discuss her getting a HepA since she was going to a hotspot overseas.  We decided the risk/benefit was in her favor.

I've got a couple of additional thoughts, but that's enough for now. I welcome respectful thoughts and discussion.

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Halftime Hope

[Frances]

In regards to #4, pediatrics is one of the lowest compensated specialties for doctors. Most pediatricians are not in it for the money. My son’s practice knew we were poor grad students without health insurance and encouraged us to get his vaccines at the county health clinic, rather than pay their higher prices. They were primarily concerned about his well being.

I’ve never heard of $400 per kid  from vaccine companies, so I can’t comment on that. How does it work? My son got his childhood vaccines at a minimum of five different places in three states. Who was getting the $400? If anything, I wish his final pediatrician would have encouraged us to get some of the newer vaccines.

[Pen]

@Halftime Hope

I want to reply but have been having hard time with the WTM site- logging in and even staying logged long enough for reply.  I hope you’ll leave your post there for a few days.  I’ll try to reply to at least one part shortly if I can stay on.

[Faith-manor]

Halftime, I did have one thought about your first point. One of the things I think that needs to be addressed, in terms of immune compromised individuals, is that there are a lot of treatments that cause low functioning immune systems that wouldn't have been so prevalent 30 years ago. So many new drugs that have this as a side effect, an increase in the number of persons being treated with cortisone to modulate the immune system, more folks on radiation as cancers are caught sooner, etc. I don't know that there are more people with autoimmune disease per se, just more people receiving treatment that suppresses the immune system.

In terms of diagnosed with specific diseases, this article indicates a low of 20 million to a high of 50 million. http://bioethicsbulletin.org/archive/how-many-americans-are-immunocompromised  This would be approximately 6% - 15% of the current 327 million population of the US. I didn't take the time to look up other nations.

[Pen]

 

@Halftime Hope

Clarification     @Sherry in OH  and anyone else who may misunderstand my post below.  I am in agreement that measles is a quite benign illness in comparison to small pox   In terms of the severity of illness.   My comparison below is only related to the level of population catching it— the issue  Halftime Hope asked about in 1a  whether it has become more virulent etc.    was the reason I was comparing to Native American experience with smallpox, where the population has not been having the illness in an endemic way for immune systems to be getting used to it...  I’ll delete that below because it might confuse others also as to what I meant.  Especially if they had not put it in context of my prior posts where I have explained that it was something pretty much universally contracted in my generation, usually as fairly mild cases.  

First paragraph.  I generally agree with you, (“you” meaning @Halftime Hope) and feel / think much the same way.  

1) I think the virulence of measles in times past went up and down— and that along with weather, food, economic conditions, war etc, might enter in to the 3 or so year cycle of measles outbreaks that tended to occur.  Another factor was how big the population of not yet immune people was — the old rule of thumb was that when 55% of the — I need to check it it was 55% of population, or 55% of children if I can find that via internet.  Obviously it makes a difference, but anyway when 55% of ___ had become immune, there was generally “herd immunity “. Not sure if that term was used.    Most people also probably got it when mother’s immunity had worn off them—but perhaps not entirely. Maybe there was still some protection to get milder cases.  

Also taking your cod liver oil was a thing - not in my generation , but in my parents’ and grandparents’, and the nutrients in cod liver oil are supposed to help make measles much less severe.  That wouldn’t explain why it was mostly  not very severe in my baby-boomer generation, but our generation had pretty good sanitation, pretty good nutrition, baby vitamins... some antibiotics that worked if a secondary bacterial infection emerged...

 

Eta: and the adults had already had it— it wasn’t like whole families were being struck down with no one to care for anyone.  

 

to be continued... maybe ... 😉

Edited February 8, 2019 by Pen

[Jean in Newcastle]

When I was at my worst)semi invalid) I was very much like those people in old books who spent their days on a chaise lounge. I think that there have always been people with low immunity etc. If they were poor, they didn’t survive. If they were rich, they often didn’t survive either but probably lasted longer. 

We have a lot longer life span than people in the past. And even families that had good genes who lived long (like my father’s family) had a lot of deaths too. In other words, of the 12 kids in my father’s family, two died in infancy and only five lived to very ripe old age. And when they died, there wasn’t always clear reasons why. (Or there probably was, but no one saw a doctor and no one knew why all the kids got the “fever” and only some survived it. )

What I am saying is that if you go back even into the early 20’s when my dad was born, statistics weren’t so accurate as they are now. 

[Sherry in OH]

In response to Halftime Hope's # 1

Compared to smallpox? Measles is relatively benign. Compared to infectious diseases such as diphtheria, cholera, typhus, scarlet fever, pneumonia, influenza, and tuberculosis?  Until the mid-twentieth century these diseases were responsible for far more deaths than any other cause.  For example, in 1900, in the U.S., the measles attributed death rate was about 13%. By contrast the death rate for diphtheria was nearly 50%.   

Deliberately exposing children to measles would have been a calculated risk.  Persons infected with measles are at risk for developing pneumonia (1 in 20) and encephalitis (1 in 1,000).*  Until the mid-20^thcentury most of these children would have died. Those who survived encephalitis would have suffered brain damage.  Measles was known to weaken eyesight and cause blindness.  Male sterility was also a possibility. But odds were that otherwise healthy children over the age of 5 would survive and be immune to future outbreaks.  By the mid-twentieth century advances in medicine, most notably penicillin, led to a dramatic fall in the measles death rate.  (It would not fall further until the development of vaccines.) The medical establishment certainly didn’t recommend deliberate exposure, but at a time when most children would eventually contract measles, timing the exposure might have held some appeal.  

*Today, pneumonia remains the leading cause of measles-related deaths, followed by encephalitis.  

 

[Sherry in OH]

Regarding #4 - I suspect insurance companies are more of a driving force than kick-backs from suppliers.  If my family didn't have insurance to cover the cost of immunizations as part of child well care we could get most of them free of charge from the Public Health Department.   Those that aren't free are low cost.  More than once I've gone to Public Health as an adult because the fee was less than my insurance co-pay.   

 

 

[Faith-manor]

This! Our county health department is free for college students if they bring their ID with them. Ds needed a tetanus booster before he left for school and had already gone through orientation so he had his ID. But if we had gone to the doctor or a walk in clinic, the co pay would have been $50 for our physician, and $80 for the walk in clinic.

Now if they need anything, they can get it free at campus health. All three colleges make office calls with the campus doctor and NP, as well as immunizations free. I am very thankful for that because unless its complicated, it is so easy for the boys. They don't have to call home asking questions about the insurance, I don't deal with bills from campus, and generally, if they do have to bill insurance, we don't get a lot of hassle. It is one of the few, wonderful services we get for the cost of tuition which is otherwise extravagant and these are state schools! I mean, for private school tuition, campus health better be doing free dorm visits, and provide private nurses, LOL.

Anyway, that was off topic. But county health department can be a really cost effective method of accessing vaxes. The down side is that some departments, due to budget cuts, have rather limited hours for giving the shots. One county over, they only do it for four hours per week. That's it. So families have to get appointments months in advance. 

[Bluegoat]

13 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Yes, but that's just him and his brothers. When he goes and deliberately visits a friend under quarantine so he can be the first one sick for a change he certainly doesn't tell his parents! And when his brothers find out they are Not Happy.

It's one thing to fatalistically accept that once your eldest has mumps, the rest are bound to get it too. It's quite another to deliberately go visiting people under quarantine in the hopes that your child will get infected.

 

 

Yes.

I remember in Tom's Midnight Garden, if anyone has read it - the brother gets measles, and has to be quarantined at home.  So Tom goes to stay with his his aunt in a flat - the hope is he will not also get measles, but since he was exposed, he has to be quarantined at his aunt's so as not to expose others unknowingly, and is very ticked off about it all.

[Pen]

@Halftime Hope

1ctd. )

“generation”.  It’s been more than a generation. The last generation in USA to be generally getting measles, was baby boomers.  Since then we have had?  GenX, Xennials?, Millenials, GenY ?    (OMG, my dc are right I’m ancient!)

 

b) I think many with weak immune systems were “culled” by early illness.  Didn’t live long to start with as preemie babies and other situations that are no longer deadly early, and the diseases that went around took others too.

But also, yes, I think many now have weaker immune systems.  Certainly from things like AIDS.  And also from people with weaker systems perhaps being able to live longer and reproduce.  And then very probably from modern environmental problems — modern forms of poor nutrition (even though food may be more plentiful) perhaps radioactive fall out, ....  on and on could go the list. And perhaps it includes weakness brought on by vaccinations themselves, I don’t know.  

 

I don’t know if it relates at all, but location may also have been relevant to perception.  My early view of measles was shaped in Southern California in an area and time when fresh off the tree citrus fruit was abundant with its natural vitamin C, bioflavonoids, and everything else in it. Cars were also already abundant (but not excellent car seats, nor 3point seatbelts, no airbags...)  I knew not one person personally with a measles death or even a severe measles illness — I knew quite a few people who died in car crashes or had permanent severe disabilities from them.  I also knew people with major polio problems .  Maybe that would be different for people in other regions.  

c) the death rate amongst people getting sick with measles in recent outbreaks does seem to be extremely much higher than it was—. Maybe 1 in 500 cases.  ?  Or so it seems from news reporting.  In my childhood millions of kids got it each year and there were maybe 1 in several thousand cases who died.    (I think it may have been 1 in a thousand for reported cases, but most people just got sick with measles and were home for a couple of weeks, without reporting it) could be due to issues in (a) and (b) above—when it comes, it is a foreign microbe not an endemic one and coming into a weaker and unprepared population.  

As well, things that in my childhood were huge as causes of death, car crash fatalities, premature births, congenital illnesses/abnormalities are either less now or less visible.   So perhaps measles looms larger in comparison.  

And ... TV, newspapers, internet, or the equivalent, can make some things seem much bigger than they are...   measles isn’t such sticky thread news and click bait when everyone gets it.  Now it’s relatively rarer so it can attract viewers, readers...  3 million cases of measles yearly then was the normal   30 cases is now an epidemic, news...  I mean how many pages is this thread?

Also, I think a lot of people are more fearful of all sorts of things now...  kids doing things alone... going places alone... staying home alone....  I think measles is one more thing to be afraid of, not necessarily related to the level of danger it actually may present

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Halftime, I did have one thought about your first point. One of the things I think that needs to be addressed, in terms of immune compromised individuals, is that there are a lot of treatments that cause low functioning immune systems that wouldn't have been so prevalent 30 years ago. So many new drugs that have this as a side effect, an increase in the number of persons being treated with cortisone to modulate the immune system, more folks on radiation as cancers are caught sooner, etc. I don't know that there are more people with autoimmune disease per se, just more people receiving treatment that suppresses the immune system.

In terms of diagnosed with specific diseases, this article indicates a low of 20 million to a high of 50 million. http://bioethicsbulletin.org/archive/how-many-americans-are-immunocompromised  This would be approximately 6% - 15% of the current 327 million population of the US. I didn't take the time to look up other nations.

 

Autoimmunity is an immune system targeting ones own body.  For example making antibodies to ones own neurons, or ones own myelin, or ones own DNA.  Etc.  

People get confused sometimes and think autoimmunity is a suppressed immune system or a immune deficiency like AIDS.  Or like someone who is being treated with immune system suppressers. 

Yes.  There is more autoimmunity now.  Per se.   

 

(eta: autoimmunity often described as “skyrocketing” over the past 50 years.  Thus also an epidemiological correlation between the time frame for rise in autoimmunity and the huge increase in vaccination, and especially early vaccination.) 

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

@Halftime Hope

Don’t quote in case I decide to delete personal health related info.  

2) cancer issue:  I’ve had both autoimmunity and an early cancer (melanoma).  While I’m in a family without other autoimmunity,  there are other cancers, and I haven’t tended to associate my melanoma with vaccinations.  That said, I found your and your brother ‘s situation extremely interesting to consider.  

It is certainly the case that there can be cancer closely correlated with and most probably caused by vaccination — as in the case of dogs and cats with vaccination site sarcoma.  It seems quite possible that there would be other vaccination related cancers, but not so immediate in time or location and thus less obviously correlated / caused.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don’t think that autoimmunity is skyrocketing necessarily- or at least that it can be blamed on vaccines . Again- people in earlier times who had something like type 1 diabetes died.   Our food supply and exposure to daily chemicals is more to blame for any uptick than vaccines, in my opinion. 

Re. Autoimmune. I have had an autoimmune disease for 30 years. It is indeed my body attacking itself. But my immune system was also compromised. After spending six months straight one year on antibiotics for infections that doctors could barely control and then seven months the next, doctors were pretty worried.   It was but the grace of God that they were able to stop that runaway train.  What has made the difference for me is medication that regulates my immune system- calms down overactive immune responses and boosts underactive immune responses. As a side benefit my autoimmune disease (while still there) is much better managed.  

Vaccines have to do with your body’s immune response to a disease. 

[Pen]

@Halftime Hope or others interested 

2ctd) fwiw I have a 15th edition (1987) of Merck (makers of MMR) Manual “ Measles has a low mortality rate and is usually benign unless complications ensue.”

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don’t think that autoimmunity is skyrocketing necessarily- or at least that it can be blamed on vaccines . Again- people in earlier times who had something like type 1 diabetes died.   Our food supply and exposure to daily chemicals is more to blame for any uptick than vaccines, in my opinion. 

Re. Autoimmune. I have had an autoimmune disease for 30 years. It is indeed my body attacking itself. But my immune system was also compromised. After spending six months straight one year on antibiotics for infections that doctors could barely control and then seven months the next, doctors were pretty worried.   It was but the grace of God that they were able to stop that runaway train.  What has made the difference for me is medication that regulates my immune system- calms down overactive immune responses and boosts underactive immune responses. As a side benefit my autoimmune disease (while still there) is much better managed.  

Vaccines have to do with your body’s immune response to a disease. 

Sorry about the massive type in copied quote below.  I’m on cellphone and can’t adjust it. I agree that we can have upregulated and under active immunity simultaneously.   

“Autoimmunity has increased threefold over the last 50 years, and it currently affects between 50 and 75 million Americans. It is the third leading chronic illness in the US, right behind heart disease and cancer. And it accounts for over $100 billion annually in healthcare costs.  https://www.amymyersmd.com/“

 

[Pen]

“Skyrocketing:”

 

Autoimmune Lectures | Donna Jackson Nakazawa

 

---

“THE AUTOIMMUNE EPIDEMIC: What You Need to Know” The Autoimmune Epidemic ... disease and allergies, the rates of which are likewise skyrocketing.

Autoimmune Epidemic | Donna Jackson ...

 

 

---

Jan 24, 2017 · In fact, autoimmune disease is one of the top 10 causes of death for kids ... are diagnosed in their early teens) has skyrocketed within the last 20 ...

 

 

etc.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Pen

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

Sorry about the massive type in copied quote below.  I’m on cellphone and can’t adjust it. I agree that we can have upregulated and under active immunity simultaneously.   

“Autoimmunity has increased threefold over the last 50 years, and it currently affects between 50 and 75 million Americans. It is the third leading chronic illness in the US, right behind heart disease and cancer. And it accounts for over $100 billion annually in healthcare costs.  https://www.amymyersmd.com/“

 

Yes. I have seen that. But as people have said about other things (like ASD for example) - a lot depends on if doctors catch or diagnose things. I know of many undiagnosed adults (some elderly) who most likely have ASD but were never diagnosed. I know of many undiagnosed adults (some elderly) who most likely have autoimmune disease but were never diagnosed.   Not all autoimmune diseases lead to death.   Many in years past just accepted their lot. 

[Pen]

@Halftime Hope

3) I am aware of similar.  I think it is very unfortunate.  There is a strong tendency toward herd mentality it seems, and having a different view point can be hard on a forum like this, and can be career ruining irl.  

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Yes. I have seen that. But as people have said about other things (like ASD for example) - a lot depends on if doctors catch or diagnose things. I know of many undiagnosed adults (some elderly) who most likely have ASD but were never diagnosed. I know of many undiagnosed adults (some elderly) who most likely have autoimmune disease but were never diagnosed.   Not all autoimmune diseases lead to death.   Many in years past just accepted their lot. 

I remember an elderly doctor talking about the rise in asthma diagnoses.  He said that in his earlier career, much of what is now described as asthma was written up as 'non-specific bronchitis'.

My brother has been diagnosed with ASD in his sixties.  As a child in the early Sixties, he was just that awkward kid who didn't fit in.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Laura Corin said:

I remember an elderly doctor talking about the rise in asthma diagnoses.  He said that in his earlier career, much of what is now described as asthma was written up as 'non-specific bronchitis'.

My brother has been diagnosed with ASD in his sixties.  As a child in the early Sixties, he was just that awkward kid who didn't fit in.

Exactly.  And can I say how nice it is to see you here, Laura?  I have missed you! 

[Laura Corin]

8 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Exactly.  And can I say how nice it is to see you here, Laura?  I have missed you! 

Thank you.  The board was taking too much space in my head and I needed to step away.  We'll see how it goes.

[Tanaqui]

15 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I remember an elderly doctor talking about the rise in asthma diagnoses.  He said that in his earlier career, much of what is now described as asthma was written up as 'non-specific bronchitis'.

My brother has been diagnosed with ASD in his sixties.  As a child in the early Sixties, he was just that awkward kid who didn't fit in.

 

The asthma bit happened to both me and my mother. The older kid had her asthma untreated for quite a time because I know that both she and I had had the exact same symptoms and nothing was ever done about it. I'm actually pretty ticked off about the whole thing.

(Also, yes, lots of autistics in my family. Number of diagnoses? One, to date - mine.)

[Guest]

On 2/4/2019 at 2:21 PM, Pen said:

 

If the odd carrier from abroad gets onto an airplane with 50 other people on it, and then goes into an airport with 250 people (conservative estimates for international planes and airports, I think), then maybe encounters 10 vulnerable people out of those 300 (I think that too may be a conservative estimate)  half of whom get sick...  of whom half are themselves getting onto other planes and going on to other airports, it seems to me it can move along in the population quite quickly.  

When I was very young there was a health check required before being allowed to fly to USA, and at one point my family was delayed in being able to travel because of that. 

This no longer seems to be the case.

Mentality seems to be: Have ticket, will travel.  

Sick? no problem, as long as not bedridden,  go to work, go shopping, travel,  infect others...

And people nowadays even tend to give positive praise to those who work despite being sick, or have very strict rules on number of sick days that can be taken, including often for teachers, (and medical field workers).

A few years ago our local schools completely shut down because so many students and staff members were sick and it kept going round and round.  

 with illnesses that have long incubation periods where people don’t even know they are sick yet, this can be a significant problem.  

My DD is taking a college class which has a stated policy of no excused absences and absences start dropping the grade at the third missed class. Said professor caught the flu and it progressed to pneumonia. She has been out 2 1/2 weeks. I can’t help but wonder if she caught it from a student who came sick due to fear of missing too many classes. 

 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

My DD is taking a college class which has a stated policy of no excused absences and absences start dropping the grade at the third missed class. Said professor caught the flu and it progressed to pneumonia. She has been out 2 1/2 weeks. I can’t help but wonder if she caught it from a student who came sick due to fear of missing too many classes. 

 

 

Could very well be!  

 

[hepatica]

On this same note, DS10and I were just recently listening to Arthur Ransome"s Winter Holiday (one of the many books in the Swallows and Amazon's series). I think it's set during the 40s. Anyway, the entire plot revolves around the fact that the kids are on winter break and one of them catches mumps, so all the friends have an extra month long holiday because they are not allowed to return to school (sounds like they are all at boarding schools) if they have been sick or exposed to any illness. They have to bring papers signed by a Dr. back to school with them. 

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

Sorry about the massive type in copied quote below.  I’m on cellphone and can’t adjust it. I agree that we can have upregulated and under active immunity simultaneously.   

“Autoimmunity has increased threefold over the last 50 years, and it currently affects between 50 and 75 million Americans. It is the third leading chronic illness in the US, right behind heart disease and cancer. And it accounts for over $100 billion annually in healthcare costs.  https://www.amymyersmd.com/“

 

Quoting studies is not equivalent to linking to a website selling supplements and self help books. 

[maize]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

My DD is taking a college class which has a stated policy of no excused absences and absences start dropping the grade at the third missed class. Said professor caught the flu and it progressed to pneumonia. She has been out 2 1/2 weeks. I can’t help but wonder if she caught it from a student who came sick due to fear of missing too many classes. 

 

Karma huh?

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Quoting studies is not equivalent to linking to a website selling supplements and self help books. 

 

All  I did was google scholar  “autoimmunity” + “rates” I don’t have time to look at articles right now , here are some

 links: 

If they come in huge type again, apologies in advance. 

 

Autoimmunity and autoinflammation: A systems view on signaling pathway dysregulation profiles

 

---

by A Arakelyan · 2017 · Cited by 4 · Related articles

Nov 3, 2017 · Epidemiological studies provide increasing evidence for the rise in prevalence of immune-related disorders including autoimmune and allergic ...

Abstract

Introduction

Material and methods

Results and discussion

 

 

A Potential Link between Environmental Triggers and Autoimmunity - Hindawi

 

---

by A Vojdani · 2014 · Cited by 76 · Related articles

Nov 21, 2013 · Interference with this fine line can result in overactivity to self-antigens, leading to autoimmunity. During the past 20 years a significant increase has been observed in the incidence of autoimmune disease worldwide. The etiology and pathogenesis of many autoimmune diseases remain unknown.

 

 

The battle to tame autoimmunity - Nature

 

---

Mar 7, 2018 · Autoimmune conditions are on the rise, particularly in the developed world and in women . “There are numerous environmental influences,” says ...

Treating Human Autoimmunity: Current Practice and Future Prospects | Science Translational ...

 

---

by MD Rosenblum · 2012 · Cited by 73 · Related articles

Autoimmunity is the highest cause of morbidity in women in the United States and is one of the top .... The overall goal of both ex vivo and in vitro approaches is to increase the relative Treg-to-Teff ..... Google Scholar.

 

It goes on for many more pages of links.  

Better?

[Pen]

3 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Thank you.  The board was taking too much space in my head and I needed to step away.  We'll see how it goes.

 

Good to see you back from me too!  Watch out for this thread alone taking too much head space 🙂 . 

 

@Ktgrok

some of “skyrocketing” is from one of my own doctors, but not what he’d  put in a scholarly textbook.  

As I guess you are now a parent of an autoimmune child (? Celiac? ), you may want to follow things about autoimmunity generally, rather than just celiac issues.  Possibly this journal would interest you:

Ah.  Link failed.  

I think it is called The Journal Of Autoimmune Diseases. .  

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Good to see you back from me too!  Watch out for this thread alone taking too much head space 🙂 . 

 

@Ktgrok

some of “skyrocketing” is from one of my own doctors, but not what he’d  put in a scholarly textbook.  

As I guess you are now a parent of an autoimmune child (? Celiac? ), you may want to follow things about autoimmunity generally, rather than just celiac issues.  Possibly this journal would interest you:

Ah.  Link failed.  

I think it is called The Journal Of Autoimmune Diseases. .  

He actually may end up with two autoimmune issues by the end of next month 😞 And my mom has an autoimmune disease as well, and genetically I am at risk as are my kids (they actually are more at risk than I am, thanks to my husband's contribution it seems). 

But those studies don't seem to be tying anything to vaccines in particular, that i saw in a brief overview. 

Again, I'm not saying that autoimmune reactions are not possible from a vaccination - I know they are, I've seen it happen in veterinary medicine. However, I also believe it is quite rare for that to happen baring other circumstances. That said, due to my ex husband's autoimmune disease (different one) we were very slow to vaccinate my oldest, and also spaced out, but not as late, with the other kids. But that doesn't mean vaccines = rise in autoimmune reactions. Kids get more vaccines now, but safer ones generally than years past, which is another thing to look into. 

[Pen]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

He actually may end up with two autoimmune issues by the end of next month 😞 And my mom has an autoimmune disease as well, and genetically I am at risk as are my kids (they actually are more at risk than I am, thanks to my husband's contribution it seems). 

But those studies don't seem to be tying anything to vaccines in particular, that i saw in a brief overview. 

Again, I'm not saying that autoimmune reactions are not possible from a vaccination - I know they are, I've seen it happen in veterinary medicine. However, I also believe it is quite rare for that to happen baring other circumstances. That said, due to my ex husband's autoimmune disease (different one) we were very slow to vaccinate my oldest, and also spaced out, but not as late, with the other kids. But that doesn't mean vaccines = rise in autoimmune reactions. Kids get more vaccines now, but safer ones generally than years past, which is another thing to look into. 

 

I did not assert causation.  Or if it appears I did it was unintentional or autocorrect gremlins, —please point it out so I can fix it.

 I asserted correlation of a rise at same time, or in time period following, rise in vaccination protocols.

 some others on here disputed that there has been any rise in autoimmunity. (And at least one person seemed to believe autoimmunity was immune deficiency.  Which had led me to try to explain the distinctio) 

One of my researcher physicians thinks that vaccines are one of several causes of autoimmunity— and that several of the causes including vaccinations have in common an introduced foreign (to the body) substance / antigen etiological pathway. ( or something like that).  Where the foreign antigen binds to the body’s  own cells, and thereafter the immune system recognizes whatever type of cell (or cells) got bonded to as foreign and makes antibodies to that type of cell (or those types of cells - as many of us have anti several different type of cell antibodies.)  Or parts of cells like anti-dna-antibodies.  ...  (Plus that vaccinations deliberately amp up the immune system. And maybe more than it would have been amped and much faster than had it encountered a certain number of wild local viruses at a time over more years) .  

There isn’t necessarily a single cause to autoimmunity  just as we can have pneumonia from a virus, bacteria or inhaled substances.  

But, as with the journal, I think there is more of starting to look at autoimmunity as more of a whole instead of lots of totally separate areas with neurologists looking at ms , rheumatologists at lupus and ra, gastroenterologists at celiac ...

etc ...

all separate and not communicating. 

[Pen]

Also, if something happens shortly after something else, it is easier to follow that.

 If it only becomes evident after some years, or if there are additional triggers involved, it can be much harder to follow .  

And harder to do good scientific studies .  

[ktgrok]

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I did not assert causation.  Or if it appears I did it was unintentional or autocorrect gremlins, —please point it out so I can fix it.

 I asserted correlation of a rise at same time, or in time period following, rise in vaccination protocols.

 some others on here disputed that there has been any rise in autoimmunity. (And at least one person seemed to believe autoimmunity was immune deficiency.  Which had led me to try to explain the distinctio) 

One of my researcher physicians thinks that vaccines are one of several causes of autoimmunity— and that several of the causes including vaccinations have in common an introduced foreign (to the body) substance / antigen etiological pathway. ( or something like that).  Where the foreign antigen binds to the body’s  own cells, and thereafter the immune system recognizes whatever type of cell (or cells) got bonded to as foreign and makes antibodies to that type of cell (or those types of cells - as many of us have anti several different type of cell antibodies.)  Or parts of cells like anti-dna-antibodies.  ...  (Plus that vaccinations deliberately amp up the immune system. And maybe more than it would have been amped and much faster than had it encountered a certain number of wild local viruses at a time over more years) .  

There isn’t necessarily a single cause to autoimmunity  just as we can have pneumonia from a virus, bacteria or inhaled substances.  

But, as with the journal, I think there is more of starting to look at autoimmunity as more of a whole instead of lots of totally separate areas with neurologists looking at ms , rheumatologists at lupus and ra, gastroenterologists at celiac ...

etc ...

all separate and not communicating. 

I totally agree that they need to be looked at as a whole. With PANDAS we are finding the lead researchers are actually rheumatologists, not neurologists, because that is who is up on autoimmune stuff. Actually, the GI we see for the celiac is also more up on PANDAS than the neurologist - go figure!  And a lot of the genes are not specific - they can lead to lupus in one person, celiac in another, etc. 

But what you are saying is a potential trigger with vaccination is also a potential trigger with wild caught diseases (in my son's case, possibly PANDAS from strep). A person who has an autoimmune reaction to say, a measles vaccine might likely have also had an autoimmune reaction to measles itself. So not saying vaccination isn't sometimes a trigger, I'm just not seeing that it is more of a trigger than disease. Or more of a risk. 

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I totally agree that they need to be looked at as a whole. With PANDAS we are finding the lead researchers are actually rheumatologists, not neurologists, because that is who is up on autoimmune stuff. Actually, the GI we see for the celiac is also more up on PANDAS than the neurologist - go figure!  And a lot of the genes are not specific - they can lead to lupus in one person, celiac in another, etc. 

But what you are saying is a potential trigger with vaccination is also a potential trigger with wild caught diseases (in my son's case, possibly PANDAS from strep). A person who has an autoimmune reaction to say, a measles vaccine might likely have also had an autoimmune reaction to measles itself. So not saying vaccination isn't sometimes a trigger, I'm just not seeing that it is more of a trigger than disease. Or more of a risk. 

 

In  the case of PANDAS, I think the connection between an infection particularly strep, though not always, and PANDAS seems pretty clear.

As well, Illnesses like measles and chicken pox — especially later age cases— have been, associated with MS (though not as clearly as strep to PANDAS and more a sense of correlation with no causation proved).   However, there remains an issue of increased number of cases of MS autoimmunity concomitant with decreased number of cases of measles and chicken pox on the one hand, and on the other a problem that some studies that appear to show that vaccinations are not related to autoimmune MS have been suspect due to methods used or financially interested entities carrying them out.  

you well may be correct that in general, diseases are more or equal risk as vaccination as triggers for autoimmunity (or at least some types of autoimmunity) and thus that other things account for the rise in autoimmunity since the diseases are declining as autoimmunity is increasing.

Or at least that’s so for measles.

Strep, Lyme disease, maybe not.  

[Roadrunner]

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I remember an elderly doctor talking about the rise in asthma diagnoses.  He said that in his earlier career, much of what is now described as asthma was written up as 'non-specific bronchitis'.

My brother has been diagnosed with ASD in his sixties.  As a child in the early Sixties, he was just that awkward kid who didn't fit in.

 

This was me. My asthma was written up as chronic bronchitis. 🤨 

I think more of us get healthcare. We get better diagnosis now and some criteria for it has changed. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

My immune system problems are not the same as my autoimmune problems. But my immune system problems are why I was medically exempt from vaccines for many years. I don’t think that my autoimmune disease has anything at all to do with vaccines. 

[KungFuPanda]

I never had measles, but I got chicken pox at 12. I was miserably dog-sick for weeks. I was a very healthy country kid who went to the doctor for immunizations and eyeglasses and not much else. 

I also had mumps when I was 6.  It was BAD. I was hospitalized for several days and my mother still shudders to think of it. I remember the sore throat the day I got sick very clearly. I went to school and ended up seeing the nurse. I remember the long, boring recovery at home, but nothing of the hospital stay. I’m so glad my kids don’t have to endure those illnesses. 

I’m still very rarely sick, but I remember those illnesses (and the flu of ‘99) and they were big deals. I can absolutely see how they could kill or damage weak or elderly people. 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I totally agree that they need to be looked at as a whole. With PANDAS we are finding the lead researchers are actually rheumatologists, not neurologists, because that is who is up on autoimmune stuff. Actually, the GI we see for the celiac is also more up on PANDAS than the neurologist - go figure!  And a lot of the genes are not specific - they can lead to lupus in one person, celiac in another, etc. 

But what you are saying is a potential trigger with vaccination is also a potential trigger with wild caught diseases (in my son's case, possibly PANDAS from strep). A person who has an autoimmune reaction to say, a measles vaccine might likely have also had an autoimmune reaction to measles itself. So not saying vaccination isn't sometimes a trigger, I'm just not seeing that it is more of a trigger than disease. Or more of a risk. 

 

New thought—if disease is the risk factor/ cause, then even if the people posting here who believe there is no more autoimmunity now than there ever was are correct, shouldn’t autoimmunity rate have declined with more vaccination and more antibiotic, hence presumptively less illness ?  Not even stayed constant, much less increased?

 

For example, for MS where association with measles and or chickenpox illness has been suspected the ratecshould decrease as worldwide vaccination for these illnesses increases and diesease rates decrease.  But that presumably isn’t so.  rates

“...worldwide multiple sclerosis prevalence data. ...  In general, the researchers found that MS prevalence has increased dramatically in that 5 year span,  up 10% ...”

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Pen

[Jean in Newcastle]

Vaccinations give you immunity to certain diseases (or at least partial immunity) by making your body manufacture antibodies to the illness.  That has zero to do with autoimmune processes so why would it make autoimmune rates either increase or decrease? 

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Vaccinations give you immunity to certain diseases (or at least partial immunity) by making your body manufacture antibodies to the illness.  That has zero to do with autoimmune processes so why would it make autoimmune rates either increase or decrease? 

 

Look back at what I tried to explain about the foreign antigens possible explanation.  It would be (could be. — this is possible, not determined) a similar explanation whether the foreign antigens were injected from vaccination, inhaled from a sick building, ...

for some people it might only do what it’s supposed to do, but for some it might have unintended effects 

 

And  might  have nothing to do with situations like Katy’s family where there is family history of autoimmunity (or perhaps your situation) ——but might apply in a case like mine where no one else in my family has had autoimmunity...and then perhaps after a change in one person it can be passed down in a genetic or epigenetic way...

 

sorry.  Just thinking about this and writing as I am needing to fall asleep...

what do you think caused your autoimmunity?

Edited February 9, 2019 by Pen
Attempting to clarify

[Jean in Newcastle]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

what do you think caused your autoimmunity?

I got mono as a teenager and haven’t been “right “ since.   But beyond that, doctors do not know what causes my problems other than their current theory of a central nervous system dysfunction. 

[Pawz4me]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

 

what do you think caused your autoimmunity?

I think mine is genetic.

My maternal grandmother had hypothyroidism, almost certainly Hashi's although I never heard it referred to as that back then.

My mother had RA and one of her sisters had hypothyroidism (again, almost certainly Hashi's).

I have both RA and Hashi's. Although as far as I know I'm the only one of over 20 cousins who has any AI problem.

I think genetics predisposed me to AI issues and stress triggered them. But obviously those are just guesses.

[Jean in Newcastle]

5 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I think mine is genetic.

My maternal grandmother had hypothyroidism, almost certainly Hashi's although I never heard it referred to as that back then.

My mother had RA and one of her sisters had hypothyroidism (again, almost certainly Hashi's).

I have both RA and Hashi's. Although as far as I know I'm the only one of over 20 cousins who has any AI problem.

I think genetics predisposed me to AI issues and stress triggered them. But obviously those are just guesses.

I think that high levels of stress triggered mine as well.  But I also think that there is a genetic aspect as my 94 year old mom (who has never been diagnosed with autoimmune issues) has many of the same symptoms as I do.  And she did not have any childhood immunizations. 

ETA:  there is also a high likelihood of a viral trigger to my autoimmune issue.  Not a virus that has a vaccine.

And also ETA:  new research is showing a high likelihood of a viral trigger to celiac disease.  Again - not a virus that has a vaccine. 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Jean in Newcastle

[gardenmom5]

48 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I think that high levels of stress triggered mine as well.  But I also think that there is a genetic aspect as my 94 year old mom (who has never been diagnosed with autoimmune issues) has many of the same symptoms as I do.  And she did not have any childhood immunizations. 

ETA:  there is also a high likelihood of a viral trigger to my autoimmune issue.  Not a virus that has a vaccine.

And also ETA:  new research is showing a high likelihood of a viral trigger to celiac disease.  Again - not a virus that has a vaccine. 

prolonged stress... raises cortisol (affects the entire endocrine system). uses up b-vitmains.  messes up methylation.. and it goes on and on...

My health has never been the same since my viral eye infection from hell.  the virus wasn't identified - but I have my suspicions. (I had an excellent ophthal - but he was so focused on halting its progression - communicating things like that were lost.  he even sent me to someone else very early on because of fears of what it might be - but wasn't -  it scared him that much.)

If I'd been offered a vaccine for that virus, before I ever contracted it - you bet your bottom dollar I would have run, and not walked to get it!  But if it's what I suspect - there isn't a vaccine.  (not even the worst case my ophthal thought it might be has a vaccine.)

 

eta: my suspicions comes from something my pc said.  then i saw a poster in another opthal's office that had pictures of how different viruses affect the eye - and this is the one that seemed to match up.  but since it wasn't an eye dr who said it, I don't consider it official.

Edited February 9, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Pen]

I appreciate the sharing people above did on personal health situations.  Clicking “like” doesn’t seem right when people are describing health being attacked. 

 

[Pen]

Mine also had exposures to “sick buildings “ and possible Lyme before hand, and also stress.  I tend to think in my case it was a combination of things adding or multiplying together, not just one thing.  I think if there is also family history/ genetics, it might take less to push one over brink into an autoimmune illness.  I think I started out very very robust and had declines as various things happened including some of the South American boosters for things like cholera , yellow fever etc.  ...   this is certainly  Not to say that I would have rather had cholera etc.  

[GoodGrief]

11 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Look back at what I tried to explain about the foreign antigens possible explanation.  It would be (could be. — this is possible, not determined) a similar explanation whether the foreign antigens were injected from vaccination, inhaled from a sick building, ...

for some people it might only do what it’s supposed to do, but for some it might have unintended effects 

 

 

Pen, FWIW, I have thought for years that the proliferation of vaccinations for various conditions has very possibly affected autoimmunity rates (and I am coming from a nursing background with a dad who was a longtime researcher at the CDC). It seems to be a tough area to research politically at this time, because vaccinations are such a hot button issue.

I did choose to space vaccinations for my children and chose single vaccinations whenever possible. I will not choose Gardasil for them either. My oldest chose to get Gardasil on her own later, after the physician told her that her mother was an "idiot" (nice, lol.At the time she found that validation of her own opinion from a medical provider validating ;-))

[Halftime Hope]

So I think there are two distinct things here:  1) autoimmune issues possibly triggered by vaccines, and 2) immune response being screwed up by vaccines. Two completely different areas of concern.