measles outbreak...

[hepatica]

It seems more helpful to me to think of the anti-vax movement not as a series of individual decisions made by morally decrepit or stupid individuals, but rather as a social movement that is located in a particular time and culture and place in history. When we look at it this was we can examine all the different things that are contributing to the phenomenon of vaccine refusal. I think anyone who wants to address falling vaccination rates needs to look at all the contributing factors, and address all the institutions that have contributed to this phenomenon. 

If you think about the cohort of women having children in the last 30 years or so you find an increasing number of college educated women, many of whom have left or cut back professional careers to stay home and raise children (politically and socially we have not figured out how to integrate women into the workforce and still provide for the care of children). These women are already better positioned to interrogate doctors and question authority figures because they feel on equal intellectual footing with medical professionals. They are also more likely to read and research for themselves, having successfully done so in order to complete college and often graduate school. So they are not as intimidated by medical authorities. Also, many women have either had unfortunate childbirth experiences, or have had to fight tooth and nail to have normal unmedicated births in a hospital setting. The rise of medical interventions and c-sections cannot be ignored when thinking about mothers' reactions to the medical establishment. And, I expect many women have had the experience of not being taken seriously when they made complaints to doctors . (As an aside here, my neighbor, a healthy 34 year old mother of 2, died of sepsis this past summer one week after the birth of her third child. She went to the emergency room twice and her OB office once during that week insisting that something was wrong and all three times they sent her home with a pat on the head and some ibuprofen for pain - as if she wouldn't know what normal postpartum pain would be. )

Combine this cohort of mothers with the actual news environment of the 90s and early 2000s. We saw regular news articles about the unexplained increases in allergies, asthma, autoimmune diseases and especially autism. These trends were a constant theme, and medical professionals did not have adequate explanations for them. We also saw the recall of some childhood vaccines, such as rotovirus, and the expansion of the vaccine schedule. Most of us did not have measles as children but I expect almost all of us had chicken pox. When the chicken pox vaccine was developed, all of a sudden chicken pox went from being a normal childhood disease to an extremely serious and even deadly disease. Now the disease itself didn't change, but one can hardly blame parents for wondering if perhaps the seriousness of measles was being overstated the same way they saw chicken pox reframed (I am not commenting here on the accuracy of these ideas or of the framing, just the logical perception of those who had had chicken pox as children). 

This news environment is located in a political environment. Changes in lobbying and campaign finance enhance the political power of pharmaceutical companies (not to mention the ability to advertise directly to the consumer), conflicts of interest within the pharmaceutical companies and the regulatory apparatus are evident (not clear lines between those creating and selling vaccines and those responsible for regulating them), and changes in access to health care and health insurance (increasingly large corporatized health care providers replacing single practitioners and family doctors, rise of HMOs, the health insurance crisis etc). So, most patients don't really have a family doctor who knows them and that they trust to look out for the well being of their child. I had this experience after my second dd had a vaccine reaction at 2 months. We were in a large practice and hardly ever saw the same doctor. Our concerns were belittled and dismissed, even though I already had a fully vaccinated 3yo and was familiar with normal mild vaccine reactions. I was extremely fortunate to land with a single pediatrician in her own practice who listened to us and helped us vaccinate on a more careful delayed schedule. But it was clear that the pressure on doctors was to vaccinate on schedule and not to take the particular family or medical history of any one particular child into account when making the decision about when and how much to vaccinate. In other words, in the increasingly impersonal medical system, no one was going to look out for my particular child but me (I will also point out that it is hard to get accurate numbers of unvaccinated children because public policy makes selective or delayed vaccination so difficult - parents whose children may be missing just a couple of shots end up filing religious exemptions because that is the only way to participate in school or activities). 

And, there are a host of other social trends that are mixed up in here too. The increase in homeschooling, which has empowered parents to buck the system and forge ahead on their own; the rise of the internet and social media, which has allowed parents to find like-minded groups across the globe; the rise of attachment and intensive parenting; the rise of anti-government conservative political movements and rhetoric really taking off in the 80s and continuing through the present; deregulation which has undermined the very organizations that are supposed to ensure food and drug safety; the trend toward Walmart health care; generalized distrust of institutions... the list could go on and on. I suppose my overall point is that the problem of vaccination refusal does not exist in a vacuum and it is not really about individual moral choice. Rather it is about parents trying to do the best they can in a complicated and ambiguous political and medical environment. Doing the things that need to be done to restore faith in our institutions, humanize and increase access to health care and control the exorbitant power of large corporate interests is more likely to improve vaccination rates than shaming individual parents. 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

�

No, it's not about being PC. �As long as the population is vaccinated to the necessary level - about 95% for measles, those few carriers, and the few who cannot be vaccinated here, aren't really much of an issue. �Chances are, the odd carrier from abroad�won't come into contact with the few here who cannot be vaccinated, or those who are but it was ineffective. �

And along with that, it will always be impossible to ensure that there will be no carriers coming in from elsewhere - even if they were actually all vaccinated themselves, it would not be a sure thing.

But if you have those people coming into a population where there are a lot of unvaccinated people, you get an outbreak, and there are all kinds of people potentially coming into contact with the vulnerable.�

 

If the odd carrier from abroad gets onto an airplane with 50 other people on it, and then goes into an airport with 250 people (conservative estimates for international planes and airports, I think), then maybe encounters 10 vulnerable people out of those 300 (I think that too may be a conservative estimate)  half of whom get sick...  of whom half are themselves getting onto other planes and going on to other airports, it seems to me it can move along in the population quite quickly.  

When I was very young there was a health check required before being allowed to fly to USA, and at one point my family was delayed in being able to travel because of that. 

This no longer seems to be the case.

Mentality seems to be: Have ticket, will travel.  

Sick? no problem, as long as not bedridden,  go to work, go shopping, travel,  infect others...

And people nowadays even tend to give positive praise to those who work despite being sick, or have very strict rules on number of sick days that can be taken, including often for teachers, (and medical field workers).

A few years ago our local schools completely shut down because so many students and staff members were sick and it kept going round and round.  

 with illnesses that have long incubation periods where people don’t even know they are sick yet, this can be a significant problem.  

Edited February 4, 2019 by Pen

[goldberry]

3 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

Have you read the ingredient list and read the research on what we know about their effect on the body when injected?

Yes, actually I have.  And my question was do you use the phrase "load of toxins" to refer to any medication other than vaccines?

It has been mentioned in this thread that many of the people against vaccination don't seem to apply the same level of scrutiny and risk aversion to other medications.  That has been true in the cases I have seen personally.  It's a valid point.

[Wheres Toto]

6 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

A similar comparison would be people who won't take prescription meds of any type, and only believe in natural healing, but will take a boatload of unregulated herbal supplements every day. I don't quite get that cross-over group either, and it's not like supplements not being regulated is a new thing. That happened back when Clinton was president, so people have literally had decades to discover that fact. I do get why people have skepticism in areas- I have some myself- but it doesn't make a lot of the behaviors of people any less logical. I guess that's a whole other thread though, because humans as a whole are pretty illogical in general I guess, no matter how hard we try to think we're not. 

This is the one I don't understand, although I was unaware that a lot of non-vaxxers use psych drugs. I wouldn't have thought it was the case.

I've talked to people who mentioned pharma companies just "being in it for the money".  Usually I ask "so, you get your herbal supplements for free?".  Some of those are pretty darn expensive for something that may not even contain what it says it contains.

[briansmama]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

What do you mean when you say kids today are "sicker than ever." Do you have any references? I'd like to understand the parameters of the claim.

Also, correlation is not causation. One cannot assume changes in a vaccination schedule have led to changes in the overall health of children or the prevalence of chronic illness, that would be irresponsible.

 

Correlation does not equal causation except when it does: “In 2011, HHS paid the IOM to review the available science regarding whether there is a causal relationship between vaccination and what HHS asserted are the 158 most common injuries claimed to occur from vaccines for Varicella, Hepatitis B, Tetanus, Measles, Mumps, and Rubella.224 The IOM located science to support a CAUSAL relationship with 18 of these injuries, including pneumonia, meningitis, MIBE, and febrile seizures.225”

I highly recommend reading the IOM reports, in which out of the 158 most common serious injuries claimed to have been caused by one or more of these vaccines, the IOM found that for over 86% of those the science simply had not been performed to determine if there is a causal relationship between the vaccine and the injury, including:
Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis, Afebrile Seizures, Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, Arthralgia, Autoimmune Hepatitis, Brachial Neuritis, Cerebellar Ataxia, Chronic Headache, Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Poly- neuropathy, Chronic Urticaria, Encephalitis, Encephalopathy, Erythema Nodosum, Fibromyalgia, Guillain-Barré Syndrome, Hearing Loss, Immune Thrombocytopenic Purpura, Infantile Spasms, Juvenile Idiopathic Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis, Neuromyelitis Optica, Optic Neuritis, Polyarteritis Nodosa, Psoriatic Arthritis, Reactive Arthritis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Seizures, Small Fiber Neuropathy, Stroke, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, Systemic Lupus Erythematosus, Thrombocytopenia, Transverse Myelitis226
Thus, out of the 158 most common serious injuries claimed to have been caused by one or more of these vaccines, the IOM found that for over 86% of those the science simply had not been performed to determine if there is a causal relationship between the vaccine and the injury.227”

For anyone else here who is concerned by the fact that no HHS licensed vaccine, save one, has been safety tested for use in children in a placebo- controlled trial prior to licensure, here is the 88-page referenced document sent to the HHS to address their lack of safety testing for liability-free vaccines discovered in a recent lawsuit filed by Robert F Kennedy Jr., the environmental lawyer who just took down Monsanto in a case in which a school landscaper’s terminally ill cancer was found to have been caused by the RoundUp used on school grounds.

The document lists the lack of placebo safety testing, inadequate safety trials (Grandpa’s viagra went through years of safety testing while your newborn’s Hep B was safety tested for a few days), studies showing unsafe levels of aluminum and other known neurotoxins, Harvard Pilgrim HMO grant that automated VAERS for 3 years and discovered vaccine injury occurred in nearly 1 in 10 vaccine recipients, etc. 

http://icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/whitepapers/ICAN Reply - December 31%2C 2018.pdf

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

My son, with ASD, showed indications of sensory issues immediately upon delivery. As in, we could not put him down or he would scream. Not cry, scream. He needed to feel sensory input - we held him for three straight days, nearly 24/7. We swaddled him when he was sleeping until he was nearly one year old.

same here. he was just … odd.  he was also my fifth, I sorta had an idea what was "normal".  he was completely unreactive.  one nurse commented babies will do that when they're over stimulated.  they'll just "check-out".  he was with me in my room until I left.  then he was readmitted and the neonatologist was expressing concern about how non-reactive he was.   this was the baby I had to take into a pitch black, silent room in order to calm him.  and I only had two teens at home when he was born.  they were more quiet then they were as teens.  and he had a room to himself.  he still ended up sleeping in mine.

3 hours ago, briansmama said:

As you know, autism is a behavioral diagnosis.  

there are three genetic links to asd. (among other physical things)  we have one of them.  

2 hours ago, Tap said:

Quote from kxl.com article Measles outbreak now 47 in Clark County

I don't know if anyone else has already linked this but the general age breakdown is

The breakdown:

• Age
  • 1 to 10 years: 34 cases
  • 11 to 18 years: 12 cases
  • 19 to 29 years: one case
• Immunization status
  • Unimmunized: 41 cases
  • Unverified: five cases
  • 1 MMR vaccine: one case
• Hospitalization: one case (none currently)

 

and now it's in king county...

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

My thinking was that if anything, since it is a less aggressive schedule - we don't vaccinate newborns - naturopaths and others would be less likely to object.  Not more likely.

 

as I commented -you're in Canada.  what ND's in Canada do, will be (should be) in line with Canadian law.  i'm in the US.  ND's are more likely to go by a delayed schedule - but they do vaccinate.

2 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

With regards to the first article sited, I saw the anti-vax fake Russian site of directory of Vaccine injured children. That was on facebook.  I have two friends on facebook who are anti-vax.  One is also anti-pharmaceuticals too, sells essential oils,  and also posts about chem-trails, etc.  I am also friendly with her son who is my son's friend.  He thinks his mom is nuts about these things.  The other is a big user of regular medical treatments but also anti-vax.  In both cases, I think the women are looking to blame issues on vaccines that have nothing to do with the vaccines.

I no longer tutor children or teach Sunday School because of my immune suppression drugs.  It has drastically reduced how many infections I have. 

I once made the mistake of telling one of these people it's not "chem-trails" - but "con-trails".  short for "condensation".  I went into a technical explanation about how  cold air mixes with the airplane exhaust to cause moisture to "condense"  like a cloud, and since airplanes are flying in a line.... oh my goodness...

I should have asked them if they'd like to sign the petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide... or to end women's suffrage...

[gardenmom5]

as for more ASD diagnosis today - awareness is much higher.   still more boys are diagnosed than girls because of the difference in how boys and girls present.  

My sister and I both meet the criteria for an ASD diagnosis today.  that wasn't around 50 years ago.  or even 30 years ago. nevertheless - we had the symptoms.  so did my sister's dd, and mine got a diagnosis in adulthood.

I'm on an online support group for women with asd - who weren't diagnosed until recently, because the criteria weren't there - but just like me, their symptoms WERE.

 

I would be more interested in looking at additives in foods.  at the "eat low-fat" craze, when boys require THREE TIMES the amount of essential fatty acids as girls for development of the corpus callosum.   at the doseage of pain drugs during labor - that cross into the baby's bloodstream and their immature little livers have to metabolize it.  I had three with an epi, and two without. (and two with Pitocin to get contractions going after rom didn't.)  is it any wonder there was a big difference among those babies, and not just during the newborn period.

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

If the odd carrier from abroad gets onto an airplane with 50 other people on it, and then goes into an airport with 250 people (conservative estimates for international planes and airports, I think), then maybe encounters 10 vulnerable people out of those 300 (I think that too may be a conservative estimate)  half of whom get sick...  of whom half are themselves getting onto other planes and going on to other airports, it seems to me it can move along in the population quite quickly.  

When I was very young there was a health check required before being allowed to fly to USA, and at one point my family was delayed in being able to travel because of that. 

This no longer seems to be the case.

Mentality seems to be: Have ticket, will travel.  

Sick? no problem, as long as not bedridden,  go to work, go shopping, travel,  infect others...

And people nowadays even tend to give positive praise to those who work despite being sick, or have very strict rules on number of sick days that can be taken, including often for teachers, (and medical field workers).

A few years ago our local schools completely shut down because so many students and staff members were sick and it kept going round and round.  

 with illnesses that have long incubation periods where people don’t even know they are sick yet, this can be a significant problem.  

 

Out of three-hundred, in a properly vaccinated population you might  have about 15, in the whole lot, who aren't protected, but they would not all get infected.  They likely would not encounter each that closely.

But that isn't the main issue.  Because these people are spread out, and there are not many carriers, the virus can just never take off.  There are good models of this, you can look at visual representations and it really shows what the problem is.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2015/feb/05/-sp-watch-how-measles-outbreak-spreads-when-kids-get-vaccinated

[DesertBlossom]

30 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Yes, actually I have.  And my question was do you use the phrase "load of toxins" to refer to any medication other than vaccines?

It has been mentioned in this thread that many of the people against vaccination don't seem to apply the same level of scrutiny and risk aversion to other medications.  That has been true in the cases I have seen personally.  It's a valid point.

This has not been my experience at all. The people I know who are least likely to vaccinate also take nutrition and general immune health pretty seriously. They are more likely to look for the root cause of illnesses rather than taking something to mask the symptoms. 

[briansmama]

18 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

same here. he was just … odd.  he was also my fifth, I sorta had an idea what was "normal".  he was completely unreactive.  one nurse commented babies will do that when they're over stimulated.  they'll just "check-out".  he was with me in my room until I left.  then he was readmitted and the neonatologist was expressing concern about how non-reactive he was.   this was the baby I had to take into a pitch black, silent room in order to calm him.  and I only had two teens at home when he was born.  they were more quiet then they were as teens.  and he had a room to himself.  he still ended up sleeping in mine.

there are three genetic links to asd. (among other physical things)  we have one of them.  

and now it's in king county...

as I commented -you're in Canada.  what ND's in Canada do, will be (should be) in line with Canadian law.  i'm in the US.  ND's are more likely to go by a delayed schedule - but they do vaccinate.

I once made the mistake of telling one of these people it's not "chem-trails" - but "con-trails".  short for "condensation".  I went into a technical explanation about how  cold air mixes with the airplane exhaust to cause moisture to "condense"  like a cloud, and since airplanes are flying in a line.... oh my goodness...

I should have asked them if they'd like to sign the petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide... or to end women's suffrage...

Are you referring to the MTHFR genetic polymorphism that is prevalent in 40-60% of the population? Yes, this DOES increase susceptibility to vaccine injury due to impaired methylation function, but it’s your environment (exposure) that determines how those genes are expressed. This is why our medical community needs to be educated on identifying and reporting vaccine injury, as well as biomarkers to identify which children are at higher risk of vaccine injury due to their genetic variances. The MTHFR and other genetic variances that increase risk of a child’s vaccine injury are not limited to the behavioral diagnosis of autism. These genetic variances also increase risk of other neuroimmune, neurodevelopmental, and autoimmune adverse reactions to vaccines and other sources of neurotoxins.

Epigenetics expert Dr. Bruce Lipton at Stanford University School of Medicine discovered in his research that genetics are directly responsible for less than 1% of all disease. It’s your environment (exposure) that determines how those genes are expressed. This explains why 50% of women who carry the BRCA gene never develop breast cancer. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[Lady Florida.]

 

21 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

 

They've been waiting for the tipping point from a public health standpoint for a while now and I think we are at it, as are many countries in Europe. Complacency's a bitch unfortunately, as are basic miscommunications of how vaccine protections work in general populations that let this happen. 

I hope this does become a tipping point but it's so frustrating that it had to get this far before people get slapped into reality. OTOH, the whooping cough epidemic* didn't seem to have been a tipping point. 

*I'm using the term as a layperson. I don't know that it was ever classified as an epidemic and am too lazy to look it up right now. Epidemic or not, there was a high number of children getting it a few years ago and some died from it. Many were hospitalized.

20 hours ago, Farrar said:

I just read something about how teens whose parents won't allow them to be vax'ed are asking for help to get vax'ed online. That's a thing. I find this so depressing. It's babies, children who couldn't decide for themselves, and people who were sick and immunocompromised who suffer the most - people with no control over it.

I've read about and applaud those teens. As to the bolded this was a big fear with our little granddaughter before her heart surgery and even now in her post op recovery period. Dss and ddil are still not taking her out into the world on a regular basis until the doctor gives her the okay, for this very reason. 

 

19 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I am old enough that I had Measles, German Measles, chicken pox and Mumps  before there was routine immunization of infants. Rubella shots were then  given at age 7 - I had already had it by then. I remember how ill I was as a child. It was awful.

I think some of those anti vaxers have no idea how ill you get, or the many complications that result in permanent damage or death.

Interestingly DH has had German Measles twice- once when a child and once when I was pregnant with second ds. 

I was going to post about this since I too am old enough to remember those days. Most of these ant-vaxxers don't have any idea what it was like before the vaccines. They think measles, mumps, and chicken pox were just harmless childhood diseases. They seem to think the side effects were rare and left no lasting damage. 

I had measles, chicken pox, and mumps. My mother thought I also had rubella (then called German measles) but when I was trying to conceive test showed I hadn't. I got the vaccine as an adult in order to not get the disease while pregnant.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[briansmama]

10 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

 

I hope this does become a tipping point but it's so frustrating that it had to get this far before people get slapped into reality. OTOH, the whooping cough epidemic* didn't seem to have been a tipping point. 

*I'm using the term as a layperson. I don't know that it was ever classified as an epidemic and am too lazy to look it up right now. Epidemic or not, there was a high number of children getting it a few years ago and some died from it. Many were hospitalized.

I've read about and applaud those teens. As to the bolded this was a big fear with our little granddaughter before her heart surgery and even now in her post op recovery period. Dss and ddil are still not taking her out into the world on a regular basis until the doctor gives her the okay, for this very reason. 

 

I was going to post about this since I too am old enough to remember those days. Most of these ant-vaxxers don't have any idea what it was like before the vaccines. They think measles, mumps, and chicken pox were just harmless childhood diseases. They seem to think the side effects were rare and left no lasting damage. 

I had measles, chicken pox, and mumps. My mother thought I also had rubella (then called German measles) but when I was trying to conceive test showed I hadn't. I got the vaccine as an adult in order to not get the disease while pregnant.

According to the UK, varicella IS a harmless infection: “The chickenpox vaccine is not part of the routine UK childhood vaccination programme because chickenpox is usually a mild illness, particularly in children. There's also a worry that introducing chickenpox vaccination for all children could increase the risk of chickenpox and shingles in adults.” UK National Health Service.

Merck’s own scientists are currently suing Merck for allegedly falsifying their mumps efficacy studies of the MMR, and we are seeing outbreaks in fully vaccinated populations.

Japan doesn’t give the mumps vaccine and stopped giving the MMR due to high rates of serious adverse reactions. They give separate measles and rubella vaccines that the US no longer offers parents due to the fact that it would “destroy their MMR campaign.” Interestingly, Japan stopped giving pediatric vaccines for several years and their infant mortality rate plummeted to best in the developed world. They now allow some pediatric vaccines and their IMR is 3rd.

The US has the highest IMR in the developed world and we give more pediatric vaccines than any other country to our infants- 26 doses by age 1. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[Lady Florida.]

12 minutes ago, briansmama said:

According to the UK, varicella IS a harmless infection

 

Sigh. No it is not harmless. But I'm not going to argue with an anti-vaxxer. I will just hope you never have a child who gets complications from chicken pox or the other preventable diseases and will also hope you never have a child who infects an immuno-compromised person. 

https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html

https://www.kidspot.com.au/health/infections-and-diseases/bacterial-and-viral/think-chickenpox-is-no-big-deal-think-again/news-story/410fa9c89eaa9968529a1ec23e5b454c

https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/Media-releases/2014/Chickenpox--not-just-a-harmless-childhood-illness

https://www.voicesforvaccines.org/not-just-a-harmless-childhood-disease/

[briansmama]

47 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

This is the one I don't understand, although I was unaware that a lot of non-vaxxers use psych drugs. I wouldn't have thought it was the case.

I've talked to people who mentioned pharma companies just "being in it for the money".  Usually I ask "so, you get your herbal supplements for free?".  Some of those are pretty darn expensive for something that may not even contain what it says it contains.

Scientists now understand that measles infection depletes retinol serum levels and studies show that vitamin A supplementation can significantly reduce complications and infections of measles. This is why measles infection in developing countries can cause higher mortality rates than in the US, where we have access to better nutrition and a lower mortality rate in general. This is also why studies show we could support developing countries more by providing vitamin A supplementation instead of vaccination campaigns.

At under $20 bottle for vitamin A, I’m not sure anyone could argue that protocol is more expensive than mass MMR vaccination campaigns considering that 1 out of 640 MMR recipients will develop a seizure disorder, requiring seizure meds and possibly numerous future hospitalizations. Additionally, the MMR vaccine can cause debilitating neuroimmune and autoimmune conditions that require life-long meds to manage symptoms. 

Your claim that herbal remedies may contain unwanted contaminants is understandable, given some are manufactured in China. To be fair, many vaccines are also manufactured in China and most are unaware that vaccines contain contaminants including glyphosate, heavy metals, fetal cells, animal cells, retroviruses, formaldehyde, and other neurotoxins and foreign DNA fragments. 

 

[briansmama]

20 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Sigh. No it is not harmless. But I'm not going to argue with an anti-vaxxer. I will just hope you never have a child who gets complications from chicken pox or the other preventable diseases and will also hope you never have a child who infects an immuno-compromised person. 

https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html

https://www.kidspot.com.au/health/infections-and-diseases/bacterial-and-viral/think-chickenpox-is-no-big-deal-think-again/news-story/410fa9c89eaa9968529a1ec23e5b454c

https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/Media-releases/2014/Chickenpox--not-just-a-harmless-childhood-illness

https://www.voicesforvaccines.org/not-just-a-harmless-childhood-disease/

I had chicken pox and I survived! But I’m not going to argue with a vaccine-pusher 😉 Yes, varicella vaccine shedding is a concern for the immunocompromised. As is MMR, flu mist, and rotavirus vaccine shedding. This is why hospitals ask that recently vaccinated individuals abstain from visiting. 

We have to remember that the $30 BILLION vaccine industry spends more on marketing than vaccine safety science. It’s up to us to understand the scientific literature, starting with the vaccine insert. 

And Voices for Vaccines is industry funded:

”The Task Force is America’s second largest charity, and reports revenue in excess of $3 billion. (This valuation is driven by in-kind donations of medicines from pharmaceutical companies.) And Voices for Vaccines, which hosts a variety of advocacy toolkits on its website and runs a blog that carries first hand testimonials of parents who vaccinate, was one of the six organizations CDC partnered with on a blog relay for National Infant Immunization Week last year.[2] Voices for Vaccines is also a member of the industry-funded “317 Coalition” I reported on (see Box 1 in my article[3]), and is considered by the CDC- and industry-funded Immunization Action Coalition as another “reliable source” for vaccination information.[4]” https://www.bmj.com/content/359/bmj.j5104/rr-2

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, briansmama said:

I had chicken pox and I survived! But I’m not going to argue with a vaccine-pusher 😉 Yes, varicella vaccine shedding is a concern for the immunocompromised. As is MMR, flu mist, and rotavirus vaccine shedding. This is why hospitals ask that recently vaccinated individuals abstain from visiting. 

We have to remember that the $30 BILLION vaccine industry spends more on marketing than vaccine safety science. It’s up to us to understand the scientific literature, starting with the vaccine insert.

the rates of adverse reactions isn't that high, but they do happen.  shingles in later life is one of the bigger issues.  2dd - had shingles when she was seven. (she only had a few pocks when she was two.)

it's going to be many years before we really see long term effects of the vaccine because shingles doesn't usually show up for 50+ years after having the virus.

eta: my friend's daughter was extremely ill, and had a seriously depleted white cell count after her bout of chicken pox. she spent time in the hospital.

Edited February 4, 2019 by gardenmom5

[ktgrok]

13 minutes ago, briansmama said:

Scientists now understand that measles infection depletes retinol serum levels and studies show that vitamin A supplementation can significantly reduce complications and infections of measles. This is why measles infection in developing countries can cause higher mortality rates than in the US, where we have access to better nutrition and a lower mortality rate in general. This is also why studies show we could support developing countries more by providing vitamin A supplementation instead of vaccination campaigns.

At under $20 bottle for vitamin A, I’m not sure anyone could argue that protocol is more expensive than mass MMR vaccination campaigns considering that 1 out of 640 MMR recipients will develop a seizure disorder, requiring seizure meds and possibly numerous future hospitalizations. Additionally, the MMR vaccine can cause debilitating neuroimmune and autoimmune conditions that require life-long meds to manage symptoms. 

Your claim that herbal remedies may contain unwanted contaminants is understandable, given some are manufactured in China. To be fair, many vaccines are also manufactured in China and most are unaware that vaccines contain contaminants including glyphosate, heavy metals, fetal cells, animal cells, retroviruses, formaldehyde, and other neurotoxins and foreign DNA fragments. 

 

First, I know people who lost family members to measles here in the USA. They were middle class, not malnourished, etc. 

And can you link to a reputable source to the 1/640 number regarding lifelong seizure disorders caused by MMR?

[gardenmom5]

44 minutes ago, briansmama said:

Are you referring to the MTHFR genetic polymorphism that is prevalent in 40-60% of the population? Yes, this DOES increase susceptibility to vaccine injury due to impaired methylation function, but it’s your environment (exposure) that determines how those genes are expressed. This is why our medical community needs to be educated on identifying and reporting vaccine injury, as well as biomarkers to identify which children are at higher risk of vaccine injury due to their genetic variances. The MTHFR and other genetic variances that increase risk of a child’s vaccine injury are not limited to the behavioral diagnosis of autism. These genetic variances also increase risk of other neuroimmune, neurodevelopmental, and autoimmune adverse reactions to vaccines and other sources of neurotoxins.

Epigenetics expert Dr. Bruce Lipton at Stanford University School of Medicine discovered in his research that genetics are directly responsible for less than 1% of all disease. It’s your environment (exposure) that determines how those genes are expressed. This explains why 50% of women who carry the BRCA gene never develop breast cancer. 

no dear, I'm not.  there are THREE different genetic markers associated with ASD.  mthfr is only *one*.

and they still dont' account for all cases.

 

[sassenach]

16 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Ooohhhkay. Whatever you say. My kids are vaxxed and their titers are confirmed. When we visit family in Seattle they're at least free from measles. No anger here, just impatience with stupidity. What’s my ‘problem’ exactly? Do tell.

 

My kids are also vaxxed. And yet, I can manage to navigate this conversation without using words like stupid, moron, idiot, fool... You're lack of desire to engage in the conversation in a mature, adult manner is part of the problem. You and everyone like you.

[gardenmom5]

TAP - are you in the Portland/clark county area?    are they all lumped in clark county?   there's so much back and forth, I'd expect the populations to mix.  but different states have different record keeping/reporting.

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, sassenach said:

My kids are also vaxxed. And yet, I can manage to navigate this conversation without using words like stupid, moron, idiot, fool... You're lack of desire to engage in the conversation in a mature, adult manner is part of the problem. You and everyone like you.

the antivaxxers have certainly outed themselves...

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Out of three-hundred, in a properly vaccinated population you might  have about 15, in the whole lot, who aren't protected, but they would not all get infected.  They likely would not encounter each that closely.

But that isn't the main issue.  Because these people are spread out, and there are not many carriers, the virus can just never take off.  There are good models of this, you can look at visual representations and it really shows what the problem is.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2015/feb/05/-sp-watch-how-measles-outbreak-spreads-when-kids-get-vaccinated

 

Perhaps: 

The plane with the carrier has 50% passengers who are not immunized because they are arriving from a country that doesn’t require immunization.  

The airport has a 95% immunization rate for the local residents working there and who have arrived to pick up visitors.  However, only 75% of arriving passengers from 3 flights in all (the one with the carrier and 2 others arriving at similar time to the international arrivals terminal) are immunized.  

 

The simulation is odd.  It showed places with vaccination rates in the 70-something percent rate as protected and one in the 90-something percent rate as unprotected.  It isn’t the same if run more than once, so you may have seen different results.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Pen
Comment on simulation added

[briansmama]

10 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

the rates of adverse reactions isn't that high, but they do happen.  shingles in later life is one of the bigger issues.  2dd - had shingles when she was seven. (she only had a few pocks when she was two.)

it's going to be many years before we really see long term effects of the vaccine because shingles doesn't usually show up for 50+ years after having the virus.

eta: my friend's daughter was extremely ill, and had a seriously depleted white cell count after her bout of chicken pox. she spent time in the hospital.

 

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

First, I know people who lost family members to measles here in the USA. They were middle class, not malnourished, etc. 

And can you link to a reputable source to the 1/640 number regarding lifelong seizure disorders caused by MMR?

We haven’t had a pediatric death in the US from a measles infection since 2003 (1 case). We’ve had over 400 MMR deaths reported to VAERS. Harvard study found that fewer than 1% of vaccine injuries are reported. 

Can you reference your middle class friends who passed from measles infection? Prior to the vaccine, measles mortality rate in the entire population was 1 in 500,000 and 1 in 10,000 infected children.

“The results showed that seizures from the MMR vaccine occur in about 1 in 640 children up to two weeks following MMR vaccination. Applying this risk of seizures to the 3.64 million U.S. children vaccinated with a first dose of MMR every year results in about 5,700 annual MMR-vaccine seizures.” https://www.bmj.com/content/359/bmj.j5104/rr-13

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[briansmama]

12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

no dear, I'm not.  there are THREE different genetic markers associated with ASD.  mthfr is only *one*.

and they still dont' account for all cases.

 

So you were referring to the MTHFR, if it was one of the 3 you mentioned, correct? Again, the MTHFR, and the list of (7) other genetic polymorphisms that are known to increase risk of vaccine injury are not “autism” identification tests. They are genetic variances that increase risk of vaccine injury, and we need our medical community trained to identify them in children prior to vaccination. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[briansmama]

14 minutes ago, sassenach said:

My kids are also vaxxed. And yet, I can manage to navigate this conversation without using words like stupid, moron, idiot, fool... You're lack of desire to engage in the conversation in a mature, adult manner is part of the problem. You and everyone like you.

It’s an emotional topic for so many. This is why we need to understand the facts and get acquainted with the scientific literature to make informed decisions. Instead, we’re subject to pharmaceutical-controlled media spreading hype and fear to push a liability-free $30 BILLION vaccine industry. 

Most simply don’t realize that if you’re over age 35, you’ve had fewer vaccine doses than today’s 6-month old baby. By that definition, if you’re over 35, you’re unvaccinated too. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[Bluegoat]

It's really not clear to me that chicken pox vaccination will turn out to be better than not.  Will it make shingles less likely - who knows.  People can get a shingles vaccination now too.  Incidents of people being harmed isn't really all that helpful, without comparing the numbers and seeing the whole population effects.  There are plenty of things - mammograms for example, which haven't turned out to have the effect that people thought it would.

 

[EmseB]

8 minutes ago, briansmama said:

 

We haven’t had a pediatric death in the US from a measles infection since 2003 (1 case). We’ve had over 400 MMR deaths reported to VAERS. Harvard study found that fewer than 1% of vaccine injuries are reported.

Except a report to VAERS isn't the same as a death caused by a vaccine. It says right on their page:

Please report clinically important adverse events that occur after vaccination of adults and children, even if you are not sure whether the vaccine caused the adverse event.

I can make a report to VAERS that I had a febrile seizure after getting a vaccine. That doesn't mean the vaccine caused my fever or the seizure. But you seem like you know enough about this subject to know all that, so it's baffling why you would cite 400 MMR deaths reported to VAERS as indicative of some kind of causal relationship when it is not even close. Which Harvard study are you referencing and how is vaccine injury categorized? Again, because something happens after someone gets a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused said incident. And the study would have to take into account the difference between an immune response which the vaccine is designed to provoke and an injury or unintended side effect.

[ktgrok]

26 minutes ago, briansmama said:

 

We haven’t had a pediatric death in the US from a measles infection since 2003 (1 case). We’ve had over 400 MMR deaths reported to VAERS. Harvard study found that fewer than 1% of vaccine injuries are reported. 

Can you reference your middle class friends who passed from measles infection? Prior to the vaccine, measles mortality rate in the entire population was 1 in 500,000 and 1 in 10,000 infected children.

“The results showed that seizures from the MMR vaccine occur in about 1 in 640 children up to two weeks following MMR vaccination. Applying this risk of seizures to the 3.64 million U.S. children vaccinated with a first dose of MMR every year results in about 5,700 annual MMR-vaccine seizures.” https://www.bmj.com/content/359/bmj.j5104/rr-13

 

Reference my friend's family member? As in, post her name and information on a public forum? No, no I will not do that. It's called doxxing I believe. 

And regarding your linkyou misquoted it. At no point does it say that the seizures were from the MMR, but that they were associated with it, temporally. The actual quote is, "Furthermore, a large 2004 Danish epidemiological study published in JAMA found that the risk of febrile seizures after MMR vaccination is 1 in 640". https://www.bmj.com/content/359/bmj.j5104/rr-13

And having a febrile seizure does not equal having a seizure disorder that requires lifelong medication, etc like you implied. Febrile seizures,  can  be a one off and even when they happen repeatedly are usually outgrown.  And a fever a week or two after the vaccine may be totally unrelated to the vaccine, versus caused by it...if someone caught the flu or a cold or strep throat after getting vaccinated they may have a febrile seizure and it would still be recorded as an adverse event. Finally, they say there was a control group, but suspiciously don't say what the rate of febrile seizures was in that control group, making the statistic they list completely meaningless. 

So no, a febrile seizure is not the lifelong management issue you made it out to be, nor are even all the ones recorded likely to be from the vaccine anyway, and as they don't say what the rate was in the control group I don't even know that the rate following MMR was higher. Maybe it was, but that information was left out. 

What the letter you linked to did say was that there are no where near that many seizures reported here following MMR. Not even close. "A query of the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) for symptoms involving seizures and convulsions from all measles vaccines (for U.S. children age 6 months to 2 years, between 2011 and 2015) results in about 90 seizure reports per year.[8] This is only 1.6% of the about 5,700 expected MMR-related seizures based on Vestergaard’s findings. " He asserts without proof that this is from underreporting, but it is  probably because we have and use tylenol for fever to prevent seizures, or because someone who's kid has a diagnosed case of strep throat 10 days later and gets a  febrile seizure doesn't report it as a vaccine adverse event because they realize it was in fact strep throat, not the vaccine, causing the fever, unlike the study discussed where anything that happened 14 days later is included. 

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Ktgrok

[maize]

2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Except a report to VAERS isn't the same as a death caused by a vaccine. It says right on their page:

Please report clinically important adverse events that occur after vaccination of adults and children, even if you are not sure whether the vaccine caused the adverse event.

I can make a report to VAERS that I had a febrile seizure after getting a vaccine. That doesn't mean the vaccine caused my fever or the seizure. But you seem like you know enough about this subject to know all that, so it's baffling why you would cite 400 MMR deaths reported to VAERS as indicative of some kind of causal relationship when it is not even close. Which Harvard study are you referencing and how is vaccine injury categorized? Again, because something happens after someone gets a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused said incident. And the study would have to take into account the difference between an immune response which the vaccine is designed to provoke and an injury or unintended side effect.

Not to mention that comparing 1 measles death out of a paltry handful of measles cases to 400 deaths even if they were confirmed to be caused by a vaccine that was administered millions of times in the same time period is not a statistically meaningful exercise.

It's like saying more kids died from car crashes than from sky diving last year so sky diving is clearly safer for children than riding in cars while ignoring the vast difference in numbers of kids who rode in cars vs. kids who went skydiving.

Nearly every child caught measles before the vaccine became available.

[Bluegoat]

29 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Perhaps: 

The plane with the carrier has 50% passengers who are not immunized because they are arriving from a country that doesn’t require immunization.  

The airport has a 95% immunization rate for the local residents working there and who have arrived to pick up visitors.  However, only 75% of arriving passengers from 3 flights in all (the one with the carrier and 2 others arriving at similar time to the international arrivals terminal) are immunized.  

 

The simulation is odd.  It showed places with vaccination rates in the 70-something percent rate as protected and one in the 90-something percent rate as unprotected.  It isn’t the same if run more than once, so you may have seen different results.

 

I'm not sure why you think it's odd.  That's how it works in a real population, there is an element of chance, especially in the middle where you have some medium level of vaccination but not enough to really give herd immunity.  Sometimes they luck out and noone meets a carrier, but if they do, there is an epidemic.  What you will notice though is that the least vaccinated populations just have epidemics every time, and the three most vaccinated don't, even if they get an infected person.  

[Wheres Toto]

5 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah, I'm personally really sick of the "toxin" terminology in general. The phrase "the dose makes the poison" needs to come back into common usage. 

Dh loves to say this.  It's not the quality, it's the quantity.   He's a chemist.

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

And yet my child (and many more with ASD) showed signs of autism at birth, long before any vaccines. 

Mine too.   He didn't get any of the "at birth" vaccines because our doctor actually recommended against them because of the issues during his birth.   

I've had the same pediatrician since oldest dd was born.  They've always discussed vaccines with me, took my concerns seriously.  We fully vax except for flu (mostly due to shortages and none of us are high risk), and we haven't done Guardasil yet.

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

dudeling sure did.  in the neonatal period  (he was readmitted to the hospital for a week, at three days old)…  the perinatologist  was expressing concerns.

I was reading an article by the head of the Harvard autism clinic.  she went back and asked very specific questions about what the parents saw and at what ages.  never ever mentioning anything about autism.  every. single. one. - showed autism traits before they received the vaccines.

one thing that isn't out there as much as I'd wish - is that a high bili has been linked to asd (enough that it is a screening question for control groups for autism studies. if the infant had a high bili - they're not allowed in the control group.).  his was 22 and climbing at 69 hours when he was readmitted.

 

Now this I find interesting.  Ds has Aspergers (I guess asd now) and he was jaundice after birth.   I'll have to do some reading about this because I hadn't heard that before.

59 minutes ago, briansmama said:

Scientists now understand that measles infection depletes retinol serum levels and studies show that vitamin A supplementation can significantly reduce complications and infections of measles. This is why measles infection in developing countries can cause higher mortality rates than in the US, where we have access to better nutrition and a lower mortality rate in general. This is also why studies show we could support developing countries more by providing vitamin A supplementation instead of vaccination campaigns.

At under $20 bottle for vitamin A, I’m not sure anyone could argue that protocol is more expensive than mass MMR vaccination campaigns considering that 1 out of 640 MMR recipients will develop a seizure disorder, requiring seizure meds and possibly numerous future hospitalizations. Additionally, the MMR vaccine can cause debilitating neuroimmune and autoimmune conditions that require life-long meds to manage symptoms. 

Your claim that herbal remedies may contain unwanted contaminants is understandable, given some are manufactured in China. To be fair, many vaccines are also manufactured in China and most are unaware that vaccines contain contaminants including glyphosate, heavy metals, fetal cells, animal cells, retroviruses, formaldehyde, and other neurotoxins and foreign DNA fragments. 

 

Do you have links to studies about any of the claims you are making?

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

Dh loves to say this.  It's not the quality, it's the quantity.   He's a chemist.

Mine too.   He didn't get any of the "at birth" vaccines because our doctor actually recommended against them because of the issues during his birth.   

I've had the same pediatrician since oldest dd was born.  They've always discussed vaccines with me, took my concerns seriously.  We fully vax except for flu (mostly due to shortages and none of us are high risk), and we haven't done Guardasil yet.

 

Now this I find interesting.  Ds has Aspergers (I guess asd now) and he was jaundice after birth.   I'll have to do some reading about this because I hadn't heard that before.

Do you have links to studies about any of the claims you are making?

My one who has Aspergers is also the only one that had jaundice. Interesting. And yes, from birth he was different. 

[DesertBlossom]

18 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

Dh loves to say this.  It's not the quality, it's the quantity.   He's a chemist.

 

Which is exactly the concern a lot of parents have about growing number of vaccines on the childhood schedule. 

[briansmama]

55 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Except a report to VAERS isn't the same as a death caused by a vaccine. It says right on their page:

Please report clinically important adverse events that occur after vaccination of adults and children, even if you are not sure whether the vaccine caused the adverse event.

I can make a report to VAERS that I had a febrile seizure after getting a vaccine. That doesn't mean the vaccine caused my fever or the seizure. But you seem like you know enough about this subject to know all that, so it's baffling why you would cite 400 MMR deaths reported to VAERS as indicative of some kind of causal relationship when it is not even close. Which Harvard study are you referencing and how is vaccine injury categorized? Again, because something happens after someone gets a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused said incident. And the study would have to take into account the difference between an immune response which the vaccine is designed to provoke and an injury or unintended side effect.

As of March 31, 2018, there have been more than 89,355 reports of measles vaccine reactions, hospitalizations, injuries and deaths following measles vaccinations made to the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS), including 445 related deaths, 6,196 hospitalizations, and 1,657 disabilities. Over 60% of those adverse events occurred in children three years old and under.

HHS is aware, “fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported” because reporting to VAERS is voluntary. https://healthit.ahrq.gov/sites/default/files/docs/publication/r18hs017045-lazarus-final-report-2011.pdf

Federal law is also clear that this list should include “only those adverse events for which there is some basis to believe there is a causal relationship between the drug and the occurrence of the adverse event.” https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=201.57

There seem to be a lot of opinions, slandering, and hype on this thread so I’m going to close out by again recommending that anyone interested in the numerous issues regarding the lack of vaccine safety testing, information on risk of vaccine injury, federal policy and recorded expert medical insight on vaccine injury to read this 88 page document that references the scientific literature surrounding this important issue: http://icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/whitepapers/ICAN Reply - December 31%2C 2018.pdf

I’m also going to remind you that 43% of our children are now diagnosed with AT LEAST 1 of 20 chronic illnesses (“A National and State Profile of Leading Health Problems and Health Care Quality for US Children,” Academic Pediatrics May-June 2011) including an epidemic rate of autoimmune disorders that the CDC lists the following as who should NOT get the MMR vaccine:

• Has a history of seizures, or has a parent, brother, or sister with a history of seizures.
• Has a parent, brother, or sister with a history of immune system problems. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/mmrv.html

To the previous poster who said they’ve lost “family members to measles infection in the US,” no one needs you to list names. Considering that it is well-documented that we have had 1 childhood measles mortality since 2003, your (plural) family members likely made the news if they died of measles infection. Can you give us a year/date for each member? Or is that top secret too? 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[Jean in Newcastle]

My 21 year old Aspie had no newborn vaccines. And he was vaccinated on a delayed schedule. He also did not have jaundice. 

He is also a mini-me to my 60 year old brother who most probably is an undiagnosed Aspie. He also had zero newborn vaccines. (He was a home birth in a different country. ). He also did not have jaundice. 

 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Which is exactly the concern a lot of parents have about growing number of vaccines on the childhood schedule. 

Except, if you use the combination vaccines, like Pentacel or Pediarix or such, you can minimize the adjuvants/extra ingredients/toxins back down to closer to what they used to be when it was fewer vaccinations. It's one reason that I opt for the combination vaccines for most things (not first dose of MMR - MMRV as first dose has higher fever rate than MMR and Varicella separately, probably due to the live virus issue). Yet if you asked the average person they would probably say that the combination vaccines are riskier. As for the antigens themselves, those are so much lower than they were in old fashioned vaccinations that kids are still getting less antigen than they did with fewer vaccines. 

 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, briansmama said:

 

To the previous poster who said they’ve lost “family members to measles infection in the US,” no one needs you to list names. Considering that it is well-documented that we have had 1 measles mortality since 2003, your (plural) family members likely made the news if they died of measles infection. Can you give us a year/date for each member? Or is that top secret too? 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think you understand what quotation marks mean. This is twice that you have used them without actually directly quoting. The first was when you misquoted the link you shared, now this. I didn't say it was MY family, I said it was a friend's family. 

But for the record, it was before 2003. 

[DesertBlossom]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Except, if you use the combination vaccines, like Pentacel or Pediarix or such, you can minimize the adjuvants/extra ingredients/toxins back down to closer to what they used to be when it was fewer vaccinations. It's one reason that I opt for the combination vaccines for most things (not first dose of MMR - MMRV as first dose has higher fever rate than MMR and Varicella separately, probably due to the live virus issue). Yet if you asked the average person they would probably say that the combination vaccines are riskier. As for the antigens themselves, those are so much lower than they were in old fashioned vaccinations that kids are still getting less antigen than they did with fewer vaccines. 

 

Two month old babies get as many as 6 separate shots in a single visit. 

[briansmama]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

First, I know people who lost family members to measles here in the USA. They were middle class, not malnourished, etc. 

And can you link to a reputable source to the 1/640 number regarding lifelong seizure disorders caused by MMR?

No reference? And yes, you’re right- I remembered your quote as “family members to measles infection in the US” when I should have quoted you as stating the above. BIG difference 🙄 

But since you personally know plural family members- though not your OWN family members- who died from measles infection in the US, I’d still like to know which year, considering there have been an average of 63 measles cases a year in the US and no reported deaths in over a decade.

Edited February 4, 2019 by briansmama

[moonflower]

14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

This topic and the attendant emotion always confuses me. 

I was nervous about vaccinating with my first - I had a good GP who spent time talking it through with me. After that, and after doing my own research, I concluded that, for a baby for whom vaccinations are not contraindicated, the risks of serious disability or death both ways are very small. Tiny, in fact. So I chose the option with the tiny risk, that was also pro social ie vaccination. Pro-social because it helps protect those who can't immunise, and those with suppressed immune systems. 

Years later it came up with a friend for whom I had a lot of respect - she had done the same research, concluded, as I did, that risk was small either way - but chose not to vaccinate. I won't lie - I thought that was a selfish decision.

Might evidence come to light in 50 years time that changes that risk balance ? Maybe, maybe not. We don't usually make health decisions on hypotheticals, but on using the info that currently exists.

Re distrust of science/scientists - I can't find an 'image of professionals' scale for scientists and researchers, but in 2017, doctors here (AU) had an 89% trust rating, only lower than nurses at 94%. So I highly doubt distrust of the medical community, at least, is at play in vax rates here (which tend to be quite good, other than in upper middle class 'crunchy' suburbs, where they are lower).

 

 

Doctors say their patients' trust is decreasing: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/quality/survey-87-of-physicians-say-patient-trust-is-decreasing.html

 

This NYT is behind their paywall so you have to open it incognito if you've exceeded the max articles for the month:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/upshot/do-you-trust-the-medical-profession.html

34% of Americans trust their doctors completely.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, DesertBlossom said:

Two month old babies get as many as 6 separate shots in a single visit. 

But they don't have to, with combo vaccines, was what I was trying to say. You can get HIB, DTaP, and Polio in one shot. Which is what we do. but, I do agree that adding on Preener and Hep B and Rotovirus to that is too much. How on earth do you know what they reacted to if they have a reaction? 

We do the Pentacel at 2 months which does HIB, Dtap, and Polio. We hold off on Hep B until older since there really is no risk at that age. We skip rotavirus as my kids are not high risk for that and do Prevnar in between the Pentacel doses. We could do rotavirus then too if we wanted. We do Hep B when they are preteens/teens. This seems reasonable to me and two pediatricians have agreed it is reasonable as well. We do MMR somewhere in between 1 yr and 2 yrs, depending on situation at the time. 

[Pen]

52 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I'm not sure why you think it's odd.  That's how it works in a real population, there is an element of chance, especially in the middle where you have some medium level of vaccination but not enough to really give herd immunity.  Sometimes they luck out and noone meets a carrier, but if they do, there is an epidemic.  What you will notice though is that the least vaccinated populations just have epidemics every time, and the three most vaccinated don't, even if they get an infected person.  

 

When I did it the 99% iirc vaccinated population didn’t, but the next one down did.   That is, when I ran it, it didn’t show that above 95% will necessarily work .

Edited February 4, 2019 by Pen

[moonflower]

My only resistance to vaccines came when I realized I'd been pressured into giving my newborns a vaccine for an STD/needle-drug disease in the hospital, for which they were likely to have absolutely zero exposure unless they in fact grew up to participate in those behaviors, just because they had me captive there and could easily pressure me.  

I understand vaccinating for measles, tetanus, even polio - but HepB gives me pause, and the fact that it not only doesn't give my doctors or nurses pause but in fact irritates them that it gives me pause gives me even more pause, if that makes sense.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, moonflower said:

My only resistance to vaccines came when I realized I'd been pressured into giving my newborns a vaccine for an STD/needle-drug disease in the hospital, for which they were likely to have absolutely zero exposure unless they in fact grew up to participate in those behaviors, just because they had me captive there and could easily pressure me.  

I understand vaccinating for measles, tetanus, even polio - but HepB gives me pause, and the fact that it not only doesn't give my doctors or nurses pause but in fact irritates them that it gives me pause gives me even more pause, if that makes sense.

Yup. 

[ktgrok]

18 minutes ago, briansmama said:

No reference? And yes, you’re right- I remembered your quote as “family members to measles infection in the US” when I should have quoted you as stating the above. BIG difference 🙄 

But since you personally know plural family members- though not your OWN family members- who died from measles infection in the US, I’d still like to know which year, considering there have been an average of 63 measles cases a year in the US and no reported deaths in over a decade.

I don't have exact years. But in both cases it was someone of my parents' generation, fi that helps, so yes, more than a decade ago. I want to say over  twentyish years ago. I'm not going to start messaging people to ask them when their relatives died, exactly. It came up in a discussion about the measles vaccine about a year ago, and years were not given. 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Ktgrok

[DesertBlossom]

4 minutes ago, moonflower said:

My only resistance to vaccines came when I realized I'd been pressured into giving my newborns a vaccine for an STD/needle-drug disease in the hospital, for which they were likely to have absolutely zero exposure unless they in fact grew up to participate in those behaviors, just because they had me captive there and could easily pressure me.  

I understand vaccinating for measles, tetanus, even polio - but HepB gives me pause, and the fact that it not only doesn't give my doctors or nurses pause but in fact irritates them that it gives me pause gives me even more pause, if that makes sense.

I had a nurse try to tell me that as a teacher, I was at risk of bringing home Hep B from one of my students. I don't know what she thought I was going to be doing with my students. And nevermind that I had been vaccinated for it myself. However, she was relentless and I finally consented to giving my 5 lb preemie the vaccine. However, there was something DS was given at birth that made the Hep B contraindicated at the time, so it was postponed. But OMG, it still makes me mad to think about that nurse.  

[AmandaVT]

7 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

This is why individual doctors should be able to have that discussion with parents, and not be required to blindly follow a one size fits all schedule. I totally get that public health sometimes dictates something different than what is best for my kid, but I want my doctor to admit that and be willing to personalize things, and for people to admit that doing so isn't anti science, or moronic, or putting the world at risk. 

Yes, my oldest gets sick for 3-5 days after a flu vaccine, so we don't do it for him anymore. He's REALLY sick each time, and it's not worth it, given that he is in a bracket to survive a flu infection fairly easily, has access to medical treatment quickly if he is ill, we can and would get him tamiflu if need be, wouldn't let him get dehydrated, can monitor his vital signs at home and go to ER if need be, etc. But I also get that there are people who are not in that situation, and the vaccine is their best shot at protection. 

2

 

We were very lucky - the pedi we see was very open to discussing alternative vaccine schedules. He told us that he held off on a few for his kids as well. The practice we go to waits until between 2-3 yrs for the MMR and doesn't do Hep B until they're older as well. DS is fully vaccinated, but we held off until a couple of years ago for Hep B because we didn't find it necessary when he was small. 

[EmseB]

37 minutes ago, briansmama said:

As of March 31, 2018, there have been more than 89,355 reports of measles vaccine reactions, hospitalizations, injuries and deaths following measles vaccinations made to the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS), including 445 related deaths, 6,196 hospitalizations, and 1,657 disabilities. Over 60% of those adverse events occurred in children three years old and under.

HHS is aware, “fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported” because reporting to VAERS is voluntary. https://healthit.ahrq.gov/sites/default/files/docs/publication/r18hs017045-lazarus-final-report-2011.pdf

Federal law is also clear that this list should include “only those adverse events for which there is some basis to believe there is a causal relationship between the drug and the occurrence of the adverse event.” https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=201.57

There seem to be a lot of opinions, slandering, and hype on this thread so I’m going to close out by again recommending that anyone interested in the numerous issues regarding the lack of vaccine safety testing, information on risk of vaccine injury, federal policy and recorded expert medical insight on vaccine injury to read this 88 page document that references the scientific literature surrounding this important issue: http://icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/whitepapers/ICAN Reply - December 31%2C 2018.pdf

I’m also going to remind you that 43% of our children are now diagnosed with AT LEAST 1 of 20 chronic illnesses (“A National and State Profile of Leading Health Problems and Health Care Quality for US Children,” Academic Pediatrics May-June 2011) including an epidemic rate of autoimmune disorders that the CDC lists the following as who should NOT get the MMR vaccine:

• Has a history of seizures, or has a parent, brother, or sister with a history of seizures.
• Has a parent, brother, or sister with a history of immune system problems. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/mmrv.html

To the previous poster who said they’ve lost “family members to measles infection in the US,” no one needs you to list names. Considering that it is well-documented that we have had 1 childhood measles mortality since 2003, your (plural) family members likely made the news if they died of measles infection. Can you give us a year/date for each member? Or is that top secret too? 

 

None of these numbers mean anything in the context you're citing them, and you keep saying the same things over and over. All of those numbers are meaningless without context. At first you cite VAERS reported deaths as some kind of causal relationship, and here you remind everyone that it's voluntary after I explained that the page itself says to report anything even if you don't know if it's caused by a vaccine. As far as I'm concerned any VAERS data is useless in the context you're trying to use it.

This isn't quality data. Most of the cites you're giving either don't say what you claim or aren't proving any kind of causality anyway. It almost seems as if you're just throwing out numbers randomly in order to scare people into not vaccinating.

 

ETA: Poking around the ICAN site it's interesting that it's affiliated with NVIC, which has a big 'ol Mercola logo on its site as a partnership. I am not willing to trust any information source that is aligned with Mercola and their ilk. And my experience is that all of those bigger websites that are anti-vax are citing the same flawed studies and using the same numbers over and over and most if not all have been discredited (or don't say what the cites claim in the first place).

Edited February 5, 2019 by EmseB

[EmseB]

Just now, AmandaVT said:

 

We were very lucky - the pedi we see was very open to discussing alternative vaccine schedules. He told us that he held off on a few for his kids as well. The practice we go to waits until between 2-3 yrs for the MMR and doesn't do Hep B until they're older as well. DS is fully vaccinated, but we held off until a couple of years ago for Hep B because we didn't find it necessary when he was small. 

Okay, but now if I'm waiting until 2 or 3 for MMR, and I'm seeing outbreaks for measles (or pertussis) on the news, I'm going to be mighty nervous for my hypothetical newborns (which couldn't get it anyway) but also my hypothetical 1yr olds. If I'm in King County right now, or anywhere in WA or OR I'm going to be getting to that office on my kids' 1st birthday and praying they don't catch it before then. Respiratory illnesses in tinies are no joke.

[briansmama]

11 minutes ago, EmseB said:

None of these numbers mean anything in the context you're citing them, and you keep saying the same things over and over. All of those numbers are meaningless without context. At first you cite VAERS reported deaths as some kind of causal relationship, and here you remind everyone that it's voluntary after I explained that the page itself says to report anything even if you don't know if it's caused by a vaccine. As far as I'm concerned any VAERS data is useless in the context you're trying to use it.

This isn't quality data. Most of the cites you're giving either don't say what you claim or aren't proving any kind of causality anyway. It almost seems as if you're just throwing out numbers randomly in order to scare people into not vaccinating.

It almost seems as if you’re ignoring the scientific literature to push vaccines. 

Doctors are required to provide parents with informed consent to vaccines. It’s extremely important to know the facts- not the hype. 

The data is critical and to argue otherwise is astounding. You’re on a well-trained mind forum and arguing that the numbers are meaningless? 

“In 2006, an HHS agency, the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, provided a $1 million grant to create a spontaneous reporting system to VAERS at Harvard Pilgrim Health Care.200 The result was the successful creation of a system at Harvard Pilgrim which automatically created adverse vaccine event reports:
Preliminary data were collected from June 2006 through October 2009 on 715,000 patients, and 1.4 million doses (of 45 different vaccines) were given to 376,452 individuals. Of these doses, 35,570 possible reactions ... were identified.201” 

“2011, HHS paid the IOM to review the available science regarding whether there is a causal relationship between vaccination and what HHS asserted are the 158 most common injuries claimed to occur from vaccines for Varicella, Hepatitis B, Tetanus, Measles, Mumps, and Rubella.224 The IOM located science to support a causal relationship with 18 of these injuries, including pneumonia, meningitis, MIBE, and febrile seizures.225”

http://icandecide.org/wp-content/uploads/whitepapers/ICAN Reply - December 31%2C 2018.pdf