measles outbreak...

[gardenmom5]

I just feel ticked off.

yes, we're vax'd.  but I've had a compromised immune system in the past - and I caught everything to which I was exposed.  I even had the flu, twice, the year I had the flu shot!  (I KNOW I would have required hospitalization the first time if I hadn't had the shot.).  And there are those who physically can't have it.

48 confirmed cases, another seven suspected.  incl. one in my own county (now it's here, I expect more to be announced in the coming days as we're far more populous than the county where the outbreak had been focused.)

41 - not vax'd

5 - unknown

1 - had the first dose only.

[TravelingChris]

It makes me so angry,.  I am on so many immuno-suppresants.   The anti-vaccers put me and millions at risk of very sedrious consequences.  Measles was eradicated in the US in the early 2000's.  And now, outbreak after outbreak.  

[Farrar]

I just read something about how teens whose parents won't allow them to be vax'ed are asking for help to get vax'ed online. That's a thing. I find this so depressing. It's babies, children who couldn't decide for themselves, and people who were sick and immunocompromised who suffer the most - people with no control over it.

[Sneezyone]

22 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I just read something about how teens whose parents won't allow them to be vax'ed are asking for help to get vax'ed online. That's a thing. I find this so depressing. It's babies, children who couldn't decide for themselves, and people who were sick and immunocompromised who suffer the most - people with no control over it.

Good on them for trying to take control of their healthcare.

[Ottakee]

This is so hard.  I have 2 girls with immune deficiencies that were able to be vaccinated but had to be on delayed schedules.  Then MIL was a transplant patient.  One of my son's best friends is a transplant patient, one of my best friend's son had a bone marrow transplant and another one of her sons just had a bowel transplant......all very at risk.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Ottakee

[Faith-manor]

My head exploded the other day when my niece who allows no vaccinations, not even tetanus and has said that if her children were exposed to rabies she wouldn't even allow them to have those shots, is hoping for an epidemic in Michigan so she her three kids can get it and have "natural immunity!" 

Thankfully, we don't have anyone immune compromised in the family at this time, but I did say to her matter of factly that she needed to keep her kids away from us. I just simply won't be the one that gets in on my hands or something from babysitting her kids, and then transmits it to the transplant patient in my place of work. I know it is supposed to be only airborne. But I don't want to risk it!

I am very concerned about these diseases making a comeback. I think there is a lot of complacency here in America where the assumption is that either we are now too healthy to die from these illnesses, or there is so much medical support that it's no big deal. They don't seem to get it! Vaccines were invented BECAUSE these viruses are so dangerous since we don't have treatments.

Her take on it is that she can cure her kids of anything with large doses of vitamin C and vegetables. It scares me.

[Melissa in Australia]

I am old enough that I had Measles, German Measles, chicken pox and Mumps  before there was routine immunization of infants. Rubella shots were then  given at age 7 - I had already had it by then. I remember how ill I was as a child. It was awful.

I think some of those anti vaxers have no idea how ill you get, or the many complications that result in permanent damage or death.

Interestingly DH has had German Measles twice- once when a child and once when I was pregnant with second ds. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

This article probably won't make you feel better, but you might find it interesting. 

https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/scientist-stop-measles-texas/

 

yes.  2dd will find it especially interesting as she has had a long interest in vaccines.  she was reading the histories and development of the various vax's before she even started pharm school.   she required us to have the tdap booster before we could come visit the baby... but then she was taking him out in public.  honey...

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I just read something about how teens whose parents won't allow them to be vax'ed are asking for help to get vax'ed online. That's a thing. I find this so depressing. It's babies, children who couldn't decide for themselves, and people who were sick and immunocompromised who suffer the most - people with no control over it.

and it's parents like this who have made it difficult to manage my spec needs tween/teens healthcare. (as long as I do *everything* on the phone.., but our providers have stuff set up for online, and even with his signature on a form allowing it, I can't access it.  and because he's under 18, he can't set up his own. so stupid.)

  the laws are being written to bypass parents of kids this age, and put more control on them!'

9 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

My head exploded the other day when my niece who allows no vaccinations, not even tetanus and has said that if her children were exposed to rabies she wouldn't even allow them to have those shots, is hoping for an epidemic in Michigan so she her three kids can get it and have "natural immunity!" 

 

does she understand that once you show symptoms of rabies - it's a death sentence?  that's why even with only "possible exposure", they do the shots.

does she like dr. quinn?  I never really watched the show, but they had a episode where a young woman died from rabies.  I think they cleaned it up, my understanding is it's a painful death.

in a warped twisted sort of way - if any of her children are exposed and she knows but doesn't do the shots, then develop it, she'll be charged with child neglect and probably imprisoned for negligent homicide at the very least.  maybe if she understands if her child get's rabies and she refuses to give the shots, she'll end up in jail will get her attention.  

[Bluegoat]

I think there is a good change there will be a big outbreak over the next few years, and maybe it will have an effect.  THough - part of me thinks that for many, it will be when they see a death or serious outcome in someone they know.

That being said, I often find myself kind of with mixed feelings about elements of this.  The article upthread that Athelthtyth posted is a good example - I think that guy is great, I really think hs commitment to diseases of the poor is great.  I don't think it's true that people are simply ignorant about science - that is part of t only.  I think people's trust has been eroded because they see significant examples of the scientific community being corrupt or suffering from hubris.  Ad it just doesn't work to say "Oh, yes, you should trust us on this particular thing.  And that's without considering whacky people that leave a bad impression - just normal medical people sometimes, the regular scientific community, has really failed to communicate to regular people why they should be given trust on some issues, when clearly we should be skeptical on others.  

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I am old enough that I had Measles, German Measles, chicken pox and Mumps  before there was routine immunization of infants. Rubella shots were then  given at age 7 - I had already had it by then. I remember how ill I was as a child. It was awful.

I think some of those anti vaxers have no idea how ill you get, or the many complications that result in permanent damage or death.

Interestingly DH has had German Measles twice- once when a child and once when I was pregnant with second ds. 

I had german measles, but not measles.   I remember when they did routine vaccinations in school.  the vaccines were new, so everyone had them.  the chicken pox vaccine came out when I was having kids.  so, some had it (one was exposed in my sil's care. words can't express how angry I was when I found out), and the others got the vaccine.

among them there are people who had them, who didn't have lasting effects - who think it's no big deal.  they're also trying to put forward the notation that just as many vax'd people have the measles as non-vax'd.  in this outbreak - the one case of a vax'd person was someone who only had the first in the series.

they don't know the dr who started this (who used fake data in his lancet article)  was marketing his own vaccine... he's not an antivaxxer.  he just wanted to destroy the one on the market to create demand for his own version.  he has the suffering of many children on his hands. (I believe in a just God, and that he will eventually answer for it.)

[ktgrok]

And the idea that a kid will have a stronger immune system by getting the disease is just plain wrong, at least with measles. It actually wipes out the immune system's memory and takes years to recover. In fact, a lot of deaths are to things like flu afterwards, because the body has no antibodies to anything for a while. It's like immune amnesia. 

I am someone who spaces vaccines out a bit more (but does combo vaccines, so it doesn't make a huge difference to do one injection per visit, with some extra visits). But I understand the reason we vaccinate and support it, I just have hold overs from working in veterinary medicine that make me feel that it is better to separate them out if possible so you get a lower adjuvant load at once. (hence me okay with combo vaccines but not multiple injections). 
 

I do think that as long as the medical establishment pretends reactions don't exist they will never make headway in the arguments with anti-vaxxers. They need to instead acknowledge that vaccine reactions happen, and can be serious, but..here is what we are doing to try to prevent them, here is what vaccine we suggest and why and why it is unlikely your child will have a reaction, and what to do if they DO have a reaction. Maybe a bit of education on the advances in vaccine technology, and how newer vaccines have a much lower antigen load than old ones, so even with more vaccines it isn't more antigen. 

[fairfarmhand]

4 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Your niece.....wow. Not sure even what to say to that. 

With the bolded, yes!! People watched their kids die and they were helpless, and now people brush that off like some old time ghost story that never really happened. Sometimes I wish that more people could be sent to work outside of any first world country and watch the lines that people will wait in for literally DAYS to get vaccinated because they've lost children or siblings to polio, measles, or other totally preventable illnesses. We have so much here to be grateful for and we piss on it with superiority and invincibility complexes. It just makes me angry. I can't even figure out where the disconnect came from, honestly, that it has reached this point. It's just sad. 

There's a very old cemetery next to one of our fields. Probably half of the graves are of children younger than 15 years old. Our society has NO CLUE what we're taking for granted. One family had the same last name and buried like four or five children within 2 years. (I looked it up and it was the year of the Spanish Influenza) In our tiny at the time community, they had to be siblings or cousins. 

[Crimson Wife]

I'm actually for parental choice BUT requiring all those who enter or re-enter the U.S. to prove immunity via titers. You don't want to get your kid vaccinated? That's your prerogative but then you can't vacation overseas and bring measles back home with you.

[gardenmom5]

13 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

There's a very old cemetery next to one of our fields. Probably half of the graves are of children younger than 15 years old. Our society has NO CLUE what we're taking for granted. One family had the same last name and buried like four or five children within 2 years. (I looked it up and it was the year of the Spanish Influenza) In our tiny at the time community, they had to be siblings or cousins. 

fil was the youngest of seven.  he was seven years younger than the sixth child.  that child died when he was two.  (I've seen a picture of him, 1dd is the spitting image.)  two more siblings died in infancy.  all of illnesses which today can be treated with antibiotics, or prevented with vaccines.  and they were a "financially comfortable" family who had access to medical care. ( prior to 1910).

 

eta: just want to clarify - they had access to what was good medicine in their day.  today, those kids would have been vax'd and had antibiotics.  but dh's grandparents didn't have that option.

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

I'm actually for parental choice BUT requiring all those who enter or re-enter the U.S. to prove immunity via titers. You don't want to get your kid vaccinated? That's your prerogative but then you can't vacation overseas and bring measles back home with you.

two of those exposed kids from clark county, wa - went to Hawaii. now, measles is on the big island of Hawaii.

[ktgrok]

Also, I'm not sure who benefits from keeping the conversation about autism and Wakefield,but NONE of the antivaxxers I know are worried that vaccines cause autism. They are concerned about other autoimmune issues like diabetes, or about reactions like encephalitis (a none possible vaccine reaction) or just general safety. To continue to try to convince them autism isn't caused by vaccines is wasted effort and accomplishes nothing - because they didn't think it did anyway. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I just went to the county with the most cases yesterday. I thought of this then and was glad that I have been immunized. I am also glad that my immunotherapy has made me so much stronger. 

[gardenmom5]

9 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, I'm not sure who benefits from keeping the conversation about autism and Wakefield,but NONE of the antivaxxers I know are worried that vaccines cause autism. They are concerned about other autoimmune issues like diabetes, or about reactions like encephalitis (a none possible vaccine reaction) or just general safety. To continue to try to convince them autism isn't caused by vaccines is wasted effort and accomplishes nothing - because they didn't think it did anyway. 

I've seen a lot of comments elsewhere - from antivaxxer's (including ones who had/parents had measles as kids, and "they're fine") who do make it about autism and anything else on to which they happen to latch.

[Sneezyone]

58 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Your niece.....wow. Not sure even what to say to that. 

With the bolded, yes!! People watched their kids die and they were helpless, and now people brush that off like some old time ghost story that never really happened. Sometimes I wish that more people could be sent to work outside of any first world country and watch the lines that people will wait in for literally DAYS to get vaccinated because they've lost children or siblings to polio, measles, or other totally preventable illnesses. We have so much here to be grateful for and we piss on it with superiority and invincibility complexes. It just makes me angry. I can't even figure out where the disconnect came from, honestly, that it has reached this point. It's just sad. 

 

YES!! My Cousin is a nurse for a children's charity in Haiti. Vaccines mean life to Haitians who live in poverty and they are eager to receive them for their children. We are so.freaking.spoiled!

Edited February 4, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

I think there is a good change there will be a big outbreak over the next few years, and maybe it will have an effect.  THough - part of me thinks that for many, it will be when they see a death or serious outcome in someone they know.

I worked on pandemic Influenza mass vaccination prep/awareness campaigns in HI a decade ago and I agree. The epidemiologists I worked with were scared even then. I don't have mixed feelings about anti-vaxxers tho. lol.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Loowit]

I think that in some ways the medical community has shot itself in the foot on some of this.  Downplaying fears that parents have and being difficult to work with make people have difficulty trusting them.

My youngest had a reaction to his second DTaP shot.  I called the office and was assured it was just a coincidence.  The next shot after that was a clear reaction that even the doctor's office took seriously, but could have been prevented IMNSHO if they had listened to me the first time.  After that I became resistant to any vaccines for him.  I wanted to slow down and separate some of them like the MMR, but it was not something they were willing to really work with me on.  I refused all vaccines at that point except for flu shots for my middle who had a heart condition.  My DD was pretty much fully vaccinated at that point.  I was scared and no one would listen.

A few years later I had a doctor corner me in during an office visit.  He placed himself between me and the door and refused to move until I agreed to vaccinate my middle child with the MMR-V.   I am sure he was proud of himself for forcing me to comply with what he thought was right, but all he did was make my mistrust of the medical profession even greater.

Since then we have switched clinics and my kids are mostly on schedule with vaccines, except youngest.  He has a lot of immunity problems and I do worry about his past reactions to shots especially after his reaction last year when he was given the wrong shot.  But now I am worried because we are very close to the measles outbreak.  I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place with this one.  I wish I could bring up my fears without them being brushed aside like I am some sort of anti-vaxxing idiot who can't think for herself.

[Jean in Newcastle]

47 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And the idea that a kid will have a stronger immune system by getting the disease is just plain wrong, at least with measles. It actually wipes out the immune system's memory and takes years to recover. In fact, a lot of deaths are to things like flu afterwards, because the body has no antibodies to anything for a while. It's like immune amnesia. 

I am someone who spaces vaccines out a bit more (but does combo vaccines, so it doesn't make a huge difference to do one injection per visit, with some extra visits). But I understand the reason we vaccinate and support it, I just have hold overs from working in veterinary medicine that make me feel that it is better to separate them out if possible so you get a lower adjuvant load at once. (hence me okay with combo vaccines but not multiple injections). 
 

I do think that as long as the medical establishment pretends reactions don't exist they will never make headway in the arguments with anti-vaxxers. They need to instead acknowledge that vaccine reactions happen, and can be serious, but..here is what we are doing to try to prevent them, here is what vaccine we suggest and why and why it is unlikely your child will have a reaction, and what to do if they DO have a reaction. Maybe a bit of education on the advances in vaccine technology, and how newer vaccines have a much lower antigen load than old ones, so even with more vaccines it isn't more antigen. 

For more than 20 years I have been getting vaccination information sheets that outline what the reactions can be. There is more factual information online. When I was vaccinated this year and the year before I was monitored afterwards carefully because I am very high risk for reactions. I think that someone would have to be actively not trying to listen to not know that there are possible reactions to vaccines. But I also think that vaccine’s benefits far outweigh the cons. 

[kiwik]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

My head exploded the other day when my niece who allows no vaccinations, not even tetanus and has said that if her children were exposed to rabies she wouldn't even allow them to have those shots, is hoping for an epidemic in Michigan so she her three kids can get it and have "natural immunity!" 

Thankfully, we don't have anyone immune compromised in the family at this time, but I did say to her matter of factly that she needed to keep her kids away from us. I just simply won't be the one that gets in on my hands or something from babysitting her kids, and then transmits it to the transplant patient in my place of work. I know it is supposed to be only airborne. But I don't want to risk it!

I am very concerned about these diseases making a comeback. I think there is a lot of complacency here in America where the assumption is that either we are now too healthy to die from these illnesses, or there is so much medical support that it's no big deal. They don't seem to get it! Vaccines were invented BECAUSE these viruses are so dangerous since we don't have treatments.

Her take on it is that she can cure her kids of anything with large doses of vitamin C and vegetables. It scares me.

Like the immunity of being dead?  Does she know how rabies victims die even in first world countries? I guess there are non do ignorant as those that choose not to see.

[kiwik]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

There's a very old cemetery next to one of our fields. Probably half of the graves are of children younger than 15 years old. Our society has NO CLUE what we're taking for granted. One family had the same last name and buried like four or five children within 2 years. (I looked it up and it was the year of the Spanish Influenza) In our tiny at the time community, they had to be siblings or cousins. 

I saw one for 9 kids and their mother who died over a month from Spanish flu.  Maybe we should make graveyard tours part of antenatal classes.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Curiosity question since I haven't launched a kid to college yet to know. 

Do Universities not require vaccines for students anymore? I don't think my undergrad did- I honestly don't remember-but I know I couldn't walk in the door to grad school without the full compliment, plus Hep B series I had to get, which hadn't been out when I was a child, and then some others because of working in infectious disease. That was in the 90's.

Has that changed recently? I would think especially in a dorm situation they'd want meningitis, MMR, etc.?

 

I remember having to show proof of meningitis vax being implemented while I was an undergraduate resident student 20 years ago. There were regular Meningitis infections reported in the Daliy Trojan, maybe once a month/quarter?

[DoraBora]

6 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Curiosity question since I haven't launched a kid to college yet to know- 

Do Universities not require vaccines for students anymore? I don't think my undergrad did- I honestly don't remember-but I know I couldn't walk in the door to grad school without the full compliment, plus Hep B series I had to get, which hadn't been out when I was a child, and then some others because of working in infectious disease. That was in the 90's. 

Has that changed recently? I would think especially in a dorm situation they'd want meningitis, MMR, etc.? ? 

In Texas, they require a meningitis vaccine or booster within five years of enrollment, even for community college.  You have to show proof and have to have the shot a couple of weeks prior to the first day of classes.  (I know this because I cut it a bit close with Dd...)  There are exemptions, I feel sure, be we vaccinate at my house, so I don't know what they are.

[Loowit]

3 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Curiosity question since I haven't launched a kid to college yet to know. 

Do Universities not require vaccines for students anymore? I don't think my undergrad did- I honestly don't remember-but I know I couldn't walk in the door to grad school without the full compliment, plus Hep B series I had to get, which hadn't been out when I was a child, and then some others because of working in infectious disease. That was in the 90's.

Has that changed recently? I would think especially in a dorm situation they'd want meningitis, MMR, etc.?

None of the colleges I attended (community college, a university, and a four year Bible college) required immunization records but that was 20+ years ago.

My DD's college didn't ask for any proof of immunizations, but it is a community college.  However, there is a lady in one of her classes that has pertussis and is allowed to go to class.  No one knows if she is still contagious, but she has gone to class every day even when she first started getting sick.  DD was not happy to hear about that one.  Pertussis has been going around our community and DS cannot be fully vaccinated, so DD is doing what she can to make sure she is washing well when she gets home.

[ktgrok]

25 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I don’t think the medical community acts like reactions don’t exist. We’ve always known there are downsides and problems. Hell, we’ve lived thru decades of good and bad, yet we’ve been overall an informed population. It’s idiots, pure and simple, who are breeding  more idiots. It’s a willful ignorance, a mentality that the bad old gov’t is out to get them. It’s listening to people in power telling them lies, it’s being just stupid and gullible enough to be dangerous. I have no idea how to educate morons.

I'm sure actually medical professionals know they exist, but the memes and the campaigns are basically "shots are safe" and that oversimplification feels like a lie to people, causing mistrust. They are safe in the sense that they are safer than the disease they prevent, safer than driving in traffic, etc but they are a medication, and there are always risks. Speaking of risk versus benefit versus "it's safe, just shut up and trust us" would work better. 

24 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Not to mention that it was only after his study when the MMR rates decreased. Not before. It was after his study was published and then vaccination rates correlated downward as media coverage increased, yet to rebound. I am hoping these cases finally make a dent in that. 

Right, but the community NOW isn't focused on autism or Wakefield, at least the part I'm on the fringe of. If they are not vaccinating due to fears of encephalitis or diabetes or whatever, than proving that a vaccine won't cause autism isn't going to increase vaccination rates. 

18 minutes ago, Loowit said:

I think that in some ways the medical community has shot itself in the foot on some of this.  Downplaying fears that parents have and being difficult to work with make people have difficulty trusting them.

My youngest had a reaction to his second DTaP shot.  I called the office and was assured it was just a coincidence.  The next shot after that was a clear reaction that even the doctor's office took seriously, but could have been prevented IMNSHO if they had listened to me the first time.  After that I became resistant to any vaccines for him.  I wanted to slow down and separate some of them like the MMR, but it was not something they were willing to really work with me on.  I refused all vaccines at that point except for flu shots for my middle who had a heart condition.  My DD was pretty much fully vaccinated at that point.  I was scared and no one would listen.

A few years later I had a doctor corner me in during an office visit.  He placed himself between me and the door and refused to move until I agreed to vaccinate my middle child with the MMR-V.   I am sure he was proud of himself for forcing me to comply with what he thought was right, but all he did was make my mistrust of the medical profession even greater.

Since then we have switched clinics and my kids are mostly on schedule with vaccines, except youngest.  He has a lot of immunity problems and I do worry about his past reactions to shots especially after his reaction last year when he was given the wrong shot.  But now I am worried because we are very close to the measles outbreak.  I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place with this one.  I wish I could bring up my fears without them being brushed aside like I am some sort of anti-vaxxing idiot who can't think for herself.

YES!!!!! My oldest in particular we spaced out some vaccines because he was having issues and his father had just been diagnosed with one, possibly two autoimmune diseases that were genetic. I had valid reasons for taking it slow with him. He was also at very low risk at the time. And yet, I was treated like a moron who believed in magic rather than science, even though I could prove my reasoning with CDC stats. Thankfully we changed pediatricians. But many don't have a doctor willing to say, "fine, if you are concerned, let's do this slowly at first, see if your child has problems, lets monitor things, lets use a vaccine brand or type that is safest, etc etc." Instead they are told do everything the way we say, in lock step, or don't get vaccinated at all because we won't see your kid. 

15 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

For more than 20 years I have been getting vaccination information sheets that outline what the reactions can be. There is more factual information online. When I was vaccinated this year and the year before I was monitored afterwards carefully because I am very high risk for reactions. I think that someone would have to be actively not trying to listen to not know that there are possible reactions to vaccines. But I also think that vaccine’s benefits far outweigh the cons. 

The parents know there are possible reactions, but the message being pushed is "vaccines are safe" with NO mention of any reactions, risks, etc. I get those sheets too, but the doctor has never gone over them with me, discussed what to look for, discussed what brand or type of vaccine he is using and why he feels it is the safest, discussed the types of reactions he has personally seen and how they are treated, etc. Never. It's blind trust - do this, it's safe, trust me. And if a person knows there are risks, but those are not acknowledged, they feel lied to and lose trust in the medical profession, and that makes them easy prey for the ones pushing snake oil. And they see the memes and such calling them morons, idiots who don't care about their kids, etc and that sure as heck is not going to get them to listen with an open mind. Insulting people never really helps an argument. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Ktgrok

[gardenmom5]

9 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Curiosity question since I haven't launched a kid to college yet to know. 

Do Universities not require vaccines for students anymore? I don't think my undergrad did- I honestly don't remember-but I know I couldn't walk in the door to grad school without the full compliment, plus Hep B series I had to get, which hadn't been out when I was a child, and then some others because of working in infectious disease. That was in the 90's.

Has that changed recently? I would think especially in a dorm situation they'd want meningitis, MMR, etc.?

when 1dd was in college 15 years ago, hep b and meningitis were absolutely required.  they spread through college communities like wildfire.

4 minutes ago, kiwik said:

I saw one for 9 kids and their mother who died over a month from Spanish flu.  Maybe we should make graveyard tours part of antenatal classes.

there's a local ob who makes her patients sign a waiver saying they understand they are not guaranteed a perfect pregnancy or infant.  even though it's probably no enforceable, she wanted them to have the reality check.

[Selkie]

6 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Curiosity question since I haven't launched a kid to college yet to know. 

Do Universities not require vaccines for students anymore? I don't think my undergrad did- I honestly don't remember-but I know I couldn't walk in the door to grad school without the full compliment, plus Hep B series I had to get, which hadn't been out when I was a child, and then some others because of working in infectious disease. That was in the 90's.

Has that changed recently? I would think especially in a dorm situation they'd want meningitis, MMR, etc.?

The college my boys go to (a state school in Wisconsin) does not require any vaccinations, but they have a list of "strongly recommended" vaccines. 

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I don’t think the medical community acts like reactions don’t exist. We’ve always known there are downsides and problems. Hell, we’ve lived thru decades of good and bad, yet we’ve been overall an informed population. It’s idiots, pure and simple, who are breeding  more idiots. It’s a willful ignorance, a mentality that the bad old gov’t is out to get them. It’s listening to people in power telling them lies, it’s being just stupid and gullible enough to be dangerous. I have no idea how to educate morons.

I'm sure actually medical professionals know they exist, but the memes and the campaigns are basically "shots are safe" and that oversimplification feels like a lie to people, causing mistrust. They are safe in the sense that they are safer than the disease they prevent, safer than driving in traffic, etc but they are a medication, and there are always risks. Speaking of risk versus benefit versus "it's safe, just shut up and trust us" would work better. 

16 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Not to mention that it was only after his study when the MMR rates decreased. Not before. It was after his study was published and then vaccination rates correlated downward as media coverage increased, yet to rebound. I am hoping these cases finally make a dent in that. 

Right, but the community NOW isn't focused on autism or Wakefield, at least the part I'm on the fringe of. If they are not vaccinating due to fears of encephalitis or diabetes or whatever, than proving that a vaccine won't cause autism isn't going to increase vaccination rates. 

10 minutes ago, Loowit said:

I think that in some ways the medical community has shot itself in the foot on some of this.  Downplaying fears that parents have and being difficult to work with make people have difficulty trusting them.

My youngest had a reaction to his second DTaP shot.  I called the office and was assured it was just a coincidence.  The next shot after that was a clear reaction that even the doctor's office took seriously, but could have been prevented IMNSHO if they had listened to me the first time.  After that I became resistant to any vaccines for him.  I wanted to slow down and separate some of them like the MMR, but it was not something they were willing to really work with me on.  I refused all vaccines at that point except for flu shots for my middle who had a heart condition.  My DD was pretty much fully vaccinated at that point.  I was scared and no one would listen.

A few years later I had a doctor corner me in during an office visit.  He placed himself between me and the door and refused to move until I agreed to vaccinate my middle child with the MMR-V.   I am sure he was proud of himself for forcing me to comply with what he thought was right, but all he did was make my mistrust of the medical profession even greater.

Since then we have switched clinics and my kids are mostly on schedule with vaccines, except youngest.  He has a lot of immunity problems and I do worry about his past reactions to shots especially after his reaction last year when he was given the wrong shot.  But now I am worried because we are very close to the measles outbreak.  I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place with this one.  I wish I could bring up my fears without them being brushed aside like I am some sort of anti-vaxxing idiot who can't think for herself.

YES!!!!! My oldest in particular we spaced out some vaccines because he was having issues and his father had just been diagnosed with one, possibly two autoimmune diseases that were genetic. I had valid reasons for taking it slow with him. He was also at very low risk at the time. And yet, I was treated like a moron who believed in magic rather than science, even though I could prove my reasoning with CDC stats. Thankfully we changed pediatricians. But many don't have a doctor willing to say, "fine, if you are concerned, let's do this slowly at first, see if your child has problems, lets monitor things, lets use a vaccine brand or type that is safest, etc etc." Instead they are told do everything the way we say, in lock step, or don't get vaccinated at all because we won't see your kid. 

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

For more than 20 years I have been getting vaccination information sheets that outline what the reactions can be. There is more factual information online. When I was vaccinated this year and the year before I was monitored afterwards carefully because I am very high risk for reactions. I think that someone would have to be actively not trying to listen to not know that there are possible reactions to vaccines. But I also think that vaccine’s benefits far outweigh the cons. 

The parents know there are possible reactions, but the message being pushed is "vaccines are safe" with NO mention of any reactions, risks, etc. I get those sheets too, but the doctor has never gone over them with me, discussed what to look for, discussed what brand or type of vaccine he is using and why he feels it is the safest, discussed the types of reactions he has personally seen and how they are treated, etc. Never. It's blind trust - do this, it's safe, trust me. And if a person knows there are risks, but those are not acknowledged, they feel lied to and lose trust in the medical profession, and that makes them easy prey for the ones pushing snake oil. 

[Joker]

13 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Curiosity question since I haven't launched a kid to college yet to know. 

Do Universities not require vaccines for students anymore? I don't think my undergrad did- I honestly don't remember-but I know I couldn't walk in the door to grad school without the full compliment, plus Hep B series I had to get, which hadn't been out when I was a child, and then some others because of working in infectious disease. That was in the 90's.

Has that changed recently? I would think especially in a dorm situation they'd want meningitis, MMR, etc.?

At the college ds attends they were told they (incoming freshmen) couldn't register for spring semester if they weren't caught up. I'm not sure what exemptions they allow but I know I had him go to the campus clinic for a certain meningitis vaccine that he hadn't yet had. 

To the OP in general, I don't get it. Ds had a bad reaction to his first chicken pox vaccine and no doctor would give him the booster for years. Finally, our pediatrician here agreed to do so when ds was 17 and all was fine. I totally get not vaccinating according to most of the schedules. I never allowed more than 2 shots at one time so mine were fully vaccinated but later than most. We still did it though. 

[fairfarmhand]

My dds college requires vaccinations but if you don’t live on campus you can waive them. Mostly they’re wanting meningitis. 

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, Joker said:

I totally get not vaccinating according to most of the schedules. I never allowed more than 2 shots at one time so mine were fully vaccinated but later than most. We still did it though. 

The problem is that most clinics will no longer allow delayed or spread out schedules. You agree to do it according to the CDC schedule or you are kicked out of the practice. It is all or nothing, and that leads to less vaccination in some of these groups, not more. Again, no conversation, just blanket statements and shaming of parents, which doesn't work. 

[gardenmom5]

16 minutes ago, Joker said:

At the college ds attends they were told they (incoming freshmen) couldn't register for spring semester if they weren't caught up. I'm not sure what exemptions they allow but I know I had him go to the campus clinic for a certain meningitis vaccine that he hadn't yet had. 

To the OP in general, I don't get it. Ds had a bad reaction to his first chicken pox vaccine and no doctor would give him the booster for years. Finally, our pediatrician here agreed to do so when ds was 17 and all was fine. I totally get not vaccinating according to most of the schedules. I never allowed more than 2 shots at one time so mine were fully vaccinated but later than most. We still did it though. 

I don't have a problem for a "slow/delayed" vaccination schedule, especially for babies that aren't in daycare.  I'm more comfortable with it than the overloading them.

however, I think those heavy vaccination schedules exist precisely because so many babies are in daycare and are exposed to so many germs when they are less able to handle it.  getting them vaccinated protects them, and acts as herd immunity to protect the even younger babies in them from being exposed.

[ktgrok]

In veterinary medicine we had people that didn't want to vaccinate and saw no reason to. And honestly, they were right in that their indoor only cat had little chance of exposure to rabies. But we still got them to vaccinate by explaining clearly our reasoning, given examples that fit their experience (cat gets it's tail stepped on by the dishwasher repairman and bites the repair man. If cat doesn't have a current rabies vaccine you are looking at quarantine at minimum or putting down the cat. Also, we've had cases of cats getting out during parties when guests leave the door open, cat is scared by all the people, etc and cat is easy prey for a raccoon, etc etc.) I would then explain that we use the safest version possible, one with low/no adjuvants, using recombinant DNA, whatever, and then explain how that lowers the risk of reaction. I'd explain why the schedule is what it is, and that cats get the vaccine every year versus every three like dogs specifically because we are using that super safe, purified, adjuvant free version due to cats' sensitive immune system - it's way safer but doesn't last as long. 

Those kinds of conversations, where you treat the person as an intelligent individual and show that you respect how much they care, and acknowledge that they want to do the right thing, and you come along side them and explain things and discuss their fears, etc...that changes minds. 

Calling people morons and uneducated does not. 

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The problem is that most clinics will no longer allow delayed or spread out schedules. You agree to do it according to the CDC schedule or you are kicked out of the practice. It is all or nothing, and that leads to less vaccination in some of these groups, not more. Again, no conversation, just blanket statements and shaming of parents, which doesn't work. 

 

If this kind of outbreak doesn't scare them into compliance, nothing will. The stats are that school-age, school-attending children are increasingly unvaccinated. That's just not ok. You keep your kid or cat at home, always...GREAT! Our Mai Tai stays home all day too...curled up on the couch. She's still vaccinated annually because there's no medical reason not to.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

 

If this kind of outbreak doesn't scare them into compliance, nothing will.

If clinics were saying, putting out a message right now in those communities "hey, we know you are concerned about the current CDC schedule, but we'll work with you. Come get just an MMR if you want, let's deal with that right now, and then we will go from there" I think they would get traction. But people are afraid (for good reason) that they will be forced into a catchup schedule and told they need to give a handful of vaccines that day if they want any at all. Again, these people were often already kicked out of their pediatricians office for not vaccinating, they don't have a relationship with a provider, and they don't feel they can go in and get just the MMR without exposing themselves to charges of neglect, insults, etc. 

[EmseB]

Count me as one who has always gotten the info sheets, been asked if I had questions, and when I asked was told what kind of reaction would be worthy of bringing my kid back to be seen. I don't buy that the medical establishment has been coy about telling people that, yeah, you could get a big bump at the infection site, possibly a low fever, but if it's anything worse come back and see us. 

But the thing is, doctors and clinics tell people vaccines are safe because they are for most people. Doctors do believe they are safe, based on all the evidence we have. If they weren't, if a doctor thought they were unsafe, he'd be evil to be vaccinating all his patients. But a lot of the science and brand names and reasons for schedules is a) complicated for a layperson; and b) doesn't make any difference if someone is concerned about aluminum in vaccines or fetal cells of aborted babies being injected directly into their kids. The science does not matter if they read Dr. Sears and think his delayed schedule is somehow based on science.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

If clinics were saying, putting out a message right now in those communities "hey, we know you are concerned about the current CDC schedule, but we'll work with you. Come get just an MMR if you want, let's deal with that right now, and then we will go from there" I think they would get traction. But people are afraid (for good reason) that they will be forced into a catchup schedule and told they need to give a handful of vaccines that day if they want any at all. Again, these people were often already kicked out of their pediatricians office for not vaccinating, they don't have a relationship with a provider, and they don't feel they can go in and get just the MMR without exposing themselves to charges of neglect, insults, etc. 

 

I hear what you're saying. I think people are rightly afraid of being IDd as the fools they are/were and won't do a damn thing to protect their perfectly healthy, non-immunicompromized kids. I have no sympathy for that but I appreciate that a less antagonistic approach might secure greater compliance.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Heartwood said:

That has not been my experience with the clinics I've been to. They have not been pushy. 

Recently? Here most are becoming part of larger groups and they have strict rules regarding vaccination. I go to one of the only two in a large metro area that will work with you on it. 

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I hear what you're saying. I think people are rightly afraid of being IDd as the fools they are/were and won't do a damn thing to protect their perfectly healthy, non-immunicompromized kids. I have no sympathy for that but I appreciate that a less antagonistic approach might secure greater compliance.

Yeah, like I said, insulting people and acting as if they don't give a shit about their kids, when in reality they are just terrified (wrongly, I agree) of hurting their kid is never going to work. 

 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

Yeah, like I said, insulting people and acting as if they don't give a shit about their kids, when in reality they are just terrified (wrongly, I agree) of hurting their kid is never going to work. 

 

Darwin. It's a thing. I'm OK with that.

[ktgrok]

Also, there are a lot of complications linked to vaccines other than a lump on your arm. some of which can cause permanent damage. Acting like they are trying to avoid a sore arm is disingenuous. Their concern is overinflated, but not made up out of whole cloth. Things like encephalitis, type one diabetes, and other autoimmune disease are what they are focusing on, not a sore arm. Again, it seems like the medical community is torn between fighting straw men and just insulting people. 

 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Darwin. It's a thing. I'm OK with that.

You are okay with kids dying because it is more fulfilling to insult people and call them names than actually practice empathy and have a respectful dialogue? Really? Gee, and you wonder why they don't trust people with their kids safety - maybe because they get the impression that people don't care about their kids. Darwin indeed. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, there are a lot of complications linked to vaccines other than a lump on your arm. some of which can cause permanent damage. Acting like they are trying to avoid a sore arm is disingenuous. Their concern is overinflated, but not made up out of whole cloth. Things like encephalitis, type one diabetes, and other autoimmune disease are what they are focusing on, not a sore arm. Again, it seems like the medical community is torn between fighting straw men and just insulting people. 

 

For myself, I'm perfectly Ok with people refusing vaccines for non-medical reasons. I reserve the right to mock them and I may watch them suffer with a shake of my head. I am *NOT* ok with people enrolling their unvaccinated kids in public schools. You don't get to kill other immunicompromized people because you want to be ignorant/stupid. They should remain at home, away from others, not traveling, and guard their health. We all have free will.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Sneezyone

[gardenmom5]

ime: the school district is pushier.

[EmseB]

IME, some practices are refusing to see people who won't vax or people who want to delay for two reasons.

One is liability and a doctor not being able to not vax a kid in good conscience. 

Two is because if a parent thinks the practice is doing something dangerous or wrong by vaxxing on the CDC schedule then that parent should not trust those doctors with anything.  IOW, why would a doctor want to have a patient that thinks said doctor is putting all his patients at risk by vaccinating them? 

How can doctors treat patients who refuse their advice because the patient thinks the advice is harmful? And then the patient does something that, in the doctor's view, actively puts the patient (and his other patients) at risk?

Edited February 4, 2019 by EmseB

[Joker]

25 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I don't have a problem for a "slow/delayed" vaccination schedule, especially for babies that aren't in daycare.  I'm more comfortable with it than the overloading them.

however, I think those heavy vaccination schedules exist precisely because so many babies are in daycare and are exposed to so many germs when they are less able to handle it.  getting them vaccinated protects them, and acts as herd immunity to protect the even younger babies in them from being exposed.

I actually get that. My own dc were never in daycare and weren't in ps until middle school so it was easier for us to choose to go slow.

I feel for the parents who don't have that choice, though. I get how having all those shots at once and early is needed due to exposure but I also get as the parent having your own dc be the number one priority. It has to truly stink to have to make those decisions. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Joker said:

I feel for the parents who don't have that choice, though. I get how having all those shots at once and early is needed due to exposure but I also get as the parent having your own dc be the number one priority. It has to truly stink to have to make those decisions. 

 

That's just it. I don't feel for these people at all. This is not a tough call for healthy kids. I feel for the millions around the world who are dying because they DON'T have the option to vaccinate or keep their children isolated at home. These are totally first world problems.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Sneezyone