Again, mixing business and friendship is biting me hard

[Moxie]

I try to not do business with friends. It just gets messy.

 

Long story, we’re getting our kitchen done and the cabinet woman is a friend. The first kitchen she designed was my dream kitchen but easily twice as much as this neighborhood can support. I worked with her on a redesign that fits the budget using stock cabinets instead of custom. She shows me the stock cabinet choices. There is no white?!?! What?? The company she buys from only does stain, not paint. Guys, I hate wood. Unless it is really old or really high-end, wood is not an option for me. She says I can hire someone to paint them. What?!? Now i’m in a pickle. This house is sooo dark, wood will feel like a cave. If it were any other company, no big deal, this won’t work, thanks anyway. But she is a friend and she’s done a ton of work already so I can’t do that. I need to play the lottery so I can afford the first kitchen.

[NorthwestMom]

Surely there must be stock cabinets, somewhere, in white? I can see them on Home Depot's website.

 

Perhaps she will need to find a new company to order from (only ordering from one seems limiting and kind of strange to me, in general). Or perhaps you can pay her for the design only, and then find a new contractor/supplier. 

 

It sucks, and is why I hate to mix those relationships too.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It's YOUR kitchen!! Sorry, but a friend would listen to you!

[scholastica]

If she’s not able to give you what you want, you’re under no obligation to use her supplier. Is she possibly trying to get you to go with the first design? No friend would do that. She knows you want white cabinets, why can’t she find them in your price range. The previous owners of our home used white cabinets from Home Depot. They’re still going strong nearly 20 years later

[wintermom]

I try to not do business with friends. It just gets messy.

 

Long story, we’re getting our kitchen done and the cabinet woman is a friend. The first kitchen she designed was my dream kitchen but easily twice as much as this neighborhood can support. I worked with her on a redesign that fits the budget using stock cabinets instead of custom. She shows me the stock cabinet choices. There is no white?!?! What?? The company she buys from only does stain, not paint. Guys, I hate wood. Unless it is really old or really high-end, wood is not an option for me. She says I can hire someone to paint them. What?!? Now i’m in a pickle. This house is sooo dark, wood will feel like a cave. If it were any other company, no big deal, this won’t work, thanks anyway. But she is a friend and she’s done a ton of work already so I can’t do that. I need to play the lottery so I can afford the first kitchen.

 

What material are these cabinets? Maybe that is your problem. This material may be more expensive and not as readily available.  Do some research on your own and see what is actually out there.

[Selkie]

Some companies only do stain because it is more durable than paint.

 

I love white cabinets and if I were you, I wouldn't get the wood ones she's trying to sell you. Finding someone to paint them sounds like a pain and it can be pricey. My friend just bought a house and had the cabinets painted and it cost a couple thousand dollars.

 

[Anne]

Just keep repeating - "I really hate wood - it's just not going to work for me.  I need these cabinets to be ___________.    I really hate  wood - it's just not going to...."

 

 

[TechWife]

Shouldn’t she, as the designer, be the person to find someone to paint them for you?

[gardenmom5]

as the designer - SHE needs to figure something out to meet the needs of the client.  that's what *designers* (who are being paid a commission of YOUR purchase) - *do*.

[solascriptura]

Yeah. Insist that she finds another supplier. I’d be surprised she refuses.

[eternalsummer]

Look, if it were something like a new chair, or your front door, or whatever, I'd say fine, do whatever and I'll fix it later and NEVER DO BUSINESS WITH YOU AGAIN.  But this is your entire kitchen.  For probably decades.  Just tell her sorry, you need white cabinets and you don't want to have them painted afterward, can she please find a supplier for them.

 

And if she won't, say I'm sorry, I didn't realize you couldn't do white cabinets but they are an absolute requirement for me so I'll stop wasting your time and find someone else.

 

Ooh, I'm irritated on your behalf.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:   I know this is hard.  Step back from your feelings of friendship and think this through.  Pretend for a moment you are only a client, not a friend.

 

1.  It matters not one iota that she is a friend.  She is also a professional.  This is an expensive job for a kitchen you will theoretically be using for a long time to come.  You aren't casually asking her opinion on something as a friend, you have hired her to do her job.  This is her profession.  She needs to do her job, which is to get you as close as possible to the kitchen you want at a price you can afford.

2.  If she is only willing to work with one supplier for cabinets then she isn't a very good designer.  She needs more flexibility and to have more options for her clients.  Be firm.  Either she is willing to get you the cabinets you want through another supplier or she isn't.  The cabinets are the biggest visual part of your kitchen.  This is NOT something you should compromise on, at least not to that extent.  Make it clear this is NOT negotiable.  She needs to do her job.

3.  If she really is a friend she will want you to be happy.  If you are CLEARLY and FIRMLY (I mean VERY CLEARLY and VERY FIRMLY) communicating your desires (are you?) she should be willing to listen, as a professional AND as a friend.  If she isn't then she isn't a very good friend OR designer and you should consider walking away from this whole thing, as hard as that might be.  Communication is critical, though.  You can be polite and calm but still be firm.  "I want white cabinets".  "Well, the supplier doesn't have white but there are these that look just lovely."  "I'm sorry but I really want white cabinets and that is a non-negotiable need.  Therefore do you have a different supplier that could provide what I want?"  "I use this supplier and while they don't have white I really think these wood ones would look lovely and you can always have them painted afterwards..."  "I am sorry but this is absolutely not something I am willing to compromise on and I do not want to hire someone myself afterwards to have them painted.  Do you have another supplier?  If not I will need to look at stock cabinets from some place like Home Depot or Lowes."  If she pushes it past that point then you need to politely but firmly tell her the project cannot go forward if she is unwilling to listen to you.  Period.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

Edited December 21, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[OneStepAtATime]

Oh and if she is really pressing to use the cabinets from that one supplier she may have some sort of agreement with them but as a designer she should absolutely be working to get what the client wants, NOT only what her preferred supplier has available.

 

However, if she is willing to eat the cost of having those cabinets painted that could also be an option, as long as whomever SHE hires to paint the cabinets are good at painting kitchen cabinets, use a high quality cabinet paint and can have them done BEFORE the cabinets need to be installed.

[sassenach]

I don't think ending up with a kitchen you resent will help your friendship.

 

I would pay her for her time and find someone else. 

 

"Friend, I really value your time and friendship but if you cannot source the materials I am looking for, then I think it's best that I pay you for the work you've put in and have someone else finish out the project. What would be fair?"

 

She'll either find a new supplier or give you a number.

 

 

 

 

[Catwoman]

She doesn't sound like much of a friend to me. :glare:

 

I suspect she makes a nice profit if you order from her preferred supplier. Trying to talk you into choosing cabinets you don't like just so she can make more money is not what a friend would do.

 

Has she known all along that you wanted white cabinets? It would seem to me that the color scheme would have come up pretty early in your discussions with her.

 

I hate to say this, Moxie, but I think your "friend" is pulling a fast one. Stand your ground and get what you want. You'll probably have that kitchen for a lot longer than you'll have that friend.

[Carol in Cal.]

That is just ridiculous.  Who buys stain-ready wood cabinets with presumably gorgeous or at least just fine grain, and then paints them?  That's going to be more expensive, and for nothing.

Stand your ground.

[Katy]

Nope.  Send her a $200 break-up fruit basket if you like, but you can't buy that kitchen from her.  Chocolate covered strawberries might be another option. Or a gift certificate to a spa.  If she doesn't understand she's not actually your friend.

 

If you want high-end results with a low budget, I highly suggest Ikea.  Don't get the sink, appliances, or countertops from them (unless you want wood), but the cabinets are really great.

[katilac]

 It would seem to me that the color scheme would have come up pretty early in your discussions with her.

 

 

Yes, how would this not be one of the very first things discussed? If she did not bring it up early in the design process, she was not doing her job very well. Color affects the rest of the design! 

[Guest]

Yes, how would this not be one of the very first things discussed? If she did not bring it up early in the design process, she was not doing her job very well. Color affects the rest of the design!

She just does the cabinet layout. And it did come up; the first dream kitchen was white. I’m not sure why she thinks i’m ok with a different color.

[prairiewindmomma]

Nope.  Send her a $200 break-up fruit basket if you like, but you can't buy that kitchen from her.  Chocolate covered strawberries might be another option. Or a gift certificate to a spa.  If she doesn't understand she's not actually your friend.

 

If you want high-end results with a low budget, I highly suggest Ikea.  Don't get the sink, appliances, or countertops from them (unless you want wood), but the cabinets are really great.

 

Katy--why not sink or countertops from IKEA? Can you elucidate? They have some good prices on quartz.

[katilac]

She just does the cabinet layout. And it did come up; the first dream kitchen was white. I’m not sure why she thinks i’m ok with a different color.

 

She doesn't really think you are okay with it, she's just hoping to guilt you into being okay with it. 

 

Stick to your guns!

[OneStepAtATime]

She just does the cabinet layout. And it did come up; the first dream kitchen was white. I’m not sure why she thinks i’m ok with a different color.

How clearly and firmly have you told her that this is the only color you will accept in your cabinets?  Could you maybe, trying not to damage a friendship, have not been really clear that stained wood is 100% not acceptable?  I'm thinking maybe part of this is a communication error?  Or is she genuinely refusing to listen to you and go by what you want?

 

I know when we redid our kitchen I realized a lot of misunderstandings were occuring because I was trying to be polite and didn't want to insult the people I was working with but because of that I was not actually being super clear on what I wanted or what I absolutely didn't want, even though I had felt I was.  I had to be firmer, clearer, and put things in writing.  No. Yes. No.  Absolutely Not.  that sort of thing.

 

Did you adamantly tell her that a stained wood cabinet is not acceptable?  You can say that and still be polite.

 

Is she an employee of the cabinet maker?  Or...?  I'm not sure I am clear on her actual job/position/responsibilities.  I thought she was the designer but I guess she is just doing cabinets?  Do you have an overall designer?

[Corraleno]

Moxie, are you paying this friend a design fee, or is she doing this for "free"? If it seems like she's doing it for free, but she's insisting you have to use this one supplier she has a relationship with, then she is probably making her money by charging you a markup on the cabinets (you pay the retail price and she gets the difference between the wholesale and retail price). 

 

No matter how close of a friend she is, you don't owe it to her to settle for wood stain or buy much more expensive cabinets than you can afford. Tell her you want white, tell her what your budget is, and offer to pay her a flat design fee for her time and effort in helping you with the layout.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Corraleno

[OneStepAtATime]

Moxie, are you paying this friend a design fee, or is she doing this for "free"? If it seems like she's doing it for free, but she's insisting you have to use this one supplier she has a relationship with, then she is probably making her money by charging you a markup on the cabinets (you pay the retail price and she gets the difference between the wholesale and retail price). 

 

No matter how close of a friend she is, you don't owe it to her to settle for wood stain or buy much more expensive cabinets than you can afford. Tell her you want white, tell her what your budget is, and offer to pay her a flat design fee for her time and effort in helping you with the layout.

This.  What is the actual relationship?  I'm confused.  Sorry Moxie.  I don't think any of us wants to make the situation more stressful.  We are just trying to make sure you are being treated right and it doesn't sound like that is happening.  Are you paying her for her services?  Are you feeling bad because she offered to do the design for free?  I agree with Corraleno, she probably will make her money by charging you a markup on the cabinets but she needs you to use the cabinets from this particular supplier.  You are absolutely NOT obligated to do so, not at all.  She sort of foisted herself on you in the first place, didn't she?  I seem to recall that.

 

Anyway, the bottom line is this is your kitchen.   Don't let anyone railroad you into picking something you will hate.  And don't feel guilty for saying something is unacceptable.  Just say it.  Clearly.  If she is a real friend she will understand and work with you.  If she isn't, then the friendship wasn't really a friendship in the first place.  

 

:grouphug:

[gardenmom5]

She just does the cabinet layout. And it did come up; the first dream kitchen was white. I’m not sure why she thinks i’m ok with a different color.

 

probably because she doesn't care much about color, and is clueless enough to think her friend/client isn't either.

 

You need to let her know - that is the color you want, no exceptions.

 

Moxie, are you paying this friend a design fee, or is she doing this for "free"? If it seems like she's doing it for free, but she's insisting you have to use this one supplier she has a relationship with, then she is probably making her money by charging you a markup on the cabinets (you pay the retail price and she gets the difference between the wholesale and retail price). 

 

No matter how close of a friend she is, you don't owe it to her to settle for wood stain or buy much more expensive cabinets than you can afford. Tell her you want white, tell her what your budget is, and offer to pay her a flat design fee for her time and effort in helping you with the layout.

 

she's most certainly not doing this for free - and I'd wager either way she's getting a commission off those cabinets.

I would not feel obligated to give her a "gift basket"/ when she hasn't done her job for her client.   she's pushing you to order something you don't want, so she can close a sale.

if she come through - fine, you can pay her a fee. if she doesn't - she needs to learn, if she want's to get paid - she needs to deliver for the client.  there are cheap cabinets out there in white.  the one thing I worry about really cheap cabinets - is blind corners - you can do it with stock cabinets, but it requires some creativity.   I've been in some standard builder new homes- and there is a ton of wasted space because of how they laid out the cabinets.  I would have been really ticked to have had it as my kitchen.

[laundrycrisis]

This is too much money and too much a major part of your home for you to sacrifice your truth for the comfort of the relationship. Stock white cabinets should not be rocket science. If she won’t work for you to get them, let her go. Just put it on the table - I want stock white cabinets. Maybe she will remove herself.

Edited December 22, 2017 by laundrycrisis

[kiwik]

I'm sorry but I have to live with this kitchen for 20 years - the cabinets must be white when supplied. And repeat and repeat ...

[Katy]

Katy--why not sink or countertops from IKEA? Can you elucidate? They have some good prices on quartz.

 

The sinks have a distinctive shape that don't look high end.  The farmhouse sinks have a strange lip that makes them difficult undermount unless you can do some custom cabinetry adaption.  Undermounting a sink makes a kitchen counter so much faster to clean that there's no reason not to undermount.

 

I've discussed quartz countertops here before and it angers a lot of people, but the gist of it is that quartz isn't a slab of natural stone.  It's sand compressed in a resin, and it does not feel like natural stone.  It has a plastic feel that is halfway between laminate and stone.  And even if you like quartz, the last time I looked at Ikea their quartz did not look or feel high end.  Granted, that was probably 18 months ago.  Perhaps that's improved.

 

As long as you don't choose something super trendy, stone will last forever.  If you do choose something trendy that will eventually look dated, when you get tired of natural stone, you can donate the countertops to a place like Habitat for Humanity's ReStore, and someone will be able to turn the slabs into something else.  So many people have donated older quartz (which does scratch and starts to look old after a while) that my local ReStore doesn't take quartz anymore.  No one wants it. It's a huge heavy slab of something that will go to a landfill when the kitchen is redone and will never be re-used.

 

Besides, depending on the era of your house you can choose a material that will fit and be timeless.  Soapstone or marbles are great, timeless choice for older homes.  So is wood.  Something like terrazzo (concrete and recycled glass or pebbles) are nice choices for mid century modern homes.  No, terrazzo perhaps wasn't a commonly used countertop choice in the midcentury era, but it was a common flooring choice, so it's not wrong, and is more durable than formica.

[OneStepAtATime]

The sinks have a distinctive shape that don't look high end.  The farmhouse sinks have a strange lip that makes them difficult undermount unless you can do some custom cabinetry adaption.  Undermounting a sink makes a kitchen counter so much faster to clean that there's no reason not to undermount.

 

I've discussed quartz countertops here before and it angers a lot of people, but the gist of it is that quartz isn't a slab of natural stone.  It's sand compressed in a resin, and it does not feel like natural stone.  It has a plastic feel that is halfway between laminate and stone.  And even if you like quartz, the last time I looked at Ikea their quartz did not look or feel high end.  Granted, that was probably 18 months ago.  Perhaps that's improved.

 

As long as you don't choose something super trendy, stone will last forever.  If you do choose something trendy that will eventually look dated, when you get tired of natural stone, you can donate the countertops to a place like Habitat for Humanity's ReStore, and someone will be able to turn the slabs into something else.  So many people have donated older quartz (which does scratch and starts to look old after a while) that my local ReStore doesn't take quartz anymore.  No one wants it. It's a huge heavy slab of something that will go to a landfill when the kitchen is redone and will never be re-used.

 

Besides, depending on the era of your house you can choose a material that will fit and be timeless.  Soapstone or marbles are great, timeless choice for older homes.  So is wood.  Something like terrazzo (concrete and recycled glass or pebbles) are nice choices for mid century modern homes.  No, terrazzo perhaps wasn't a commonly used countertop choice in the midcentury era, but it was a common flooring choice, so it's not wrong, and is more durable than formica.

It is interesting what you are saying about quartz.  FWIW, quartz is becoming more and more popular in our area because of the wide ranging options in color/style but also because of durability/longevity.  While granite still gets used quartz is passing granite as the most popular countertop for kitchens where I live.  There are far more options and in some cases quartz is cheaper while still offering a lot of the positives of regular stone surfaces. 

 

I love our quartz more than anything we have ever had.  So does DH.  It has held up under all kinds of duress and still looks awesome after years of use.  We still get compliments over how beautiful our countertops look and how well they set off our kitchen. 

 

On a side note, regarding what they are composed of, Quartz countertops are 90-94% quartz with the other % being the resins, polymers and pigments.  Yes it is ground quartz but it is still mostly made up of stone (quartz) which makes it a very hard and durable surface.  Quartz is a really rugged mineral.  And it doesn't feel at all like plastic to me.  It feels like stone.  Because it is mostly stone.  At least all the quartz countertops I have ever seen/felt have felt like stone.  Maybe you have only felt/seen some sort of subpar quartz countertops? 

 

Are many quartz finishes faddy/unusual/not stone looking?  Yes.  But there are many that do have a stone look.  And that range gives it a versatility I could not find in other stone countertops.  Believe me we looked.  And for those that like a different look from regular stone such as granite, it still gives them that durability but also a LOT of options they can't get through the other. 

 

Not wanting to get into an argument here or derail this thread.  Obviously you feel strongly and I respect that.  I just wanted to mention that my experience has apparently been nothing like yours.  It surprised me when I read your post.  I know some people don't like quartz just like some don't like granite and some don't like corian and some don't like tile,etc..  I just was surprised that your experience was so vastly different experience from mine.

 

Best wishes.

[hellen]

I just want to second Ikea cabinets. I love them.

 

You definitely want drawers as your bottom cabinets. They are much better for storage. I also like soft close drawers. Ikea has both for a good price.

[J-rap]

I think whether you're paying her or not, you can tell her thank you but no thank you.  You can pay her a small amount for the work she's put into it so far, or take her out to lunch or something.

 

I hired a designer friend to install some curtains and shades in our home a couple years ago.  I didn't know exactly what I wanted -- just what I didn't want.  After we went through her books together, I had a better idea of what I wanted but could see that it wasn't in her books.  She then went online to scout out other places that might have them, and ended up going with a company she'd never gone with before.  

 

I don't really understand the relationship between designers and suppliers, but at least in my case, she was able to look beyond her usual suppliers.

[momacacia]

I third Ikea kitchens.

 

And, you better believe there's money for her behind this somewhere. She already tried to "overdesign" your kitchen once, now she's immovable on a certain cabinetmaker. Hmmmm....

[gardenmom5]

I just want to second Ikea cabinets. I love them.

 

You definitely want drawers as your bottom cabinets. They are much better for storage. I also like soft close drawers. Ikea has both for a good price.

 

I don't like too many drawers as you have to reach down into something.  but what I did - which I love - was have pull-out trays behind the cabinet doors.   so the sides are low and it's easy to get something off of one - but it would be difficult to get it out of a drawer.

[hellen]

I don't like too many drawers as you have to reach down into something. but what I did - which I love - was have pull-out trays behind the cabinet doors. so the sides are low and it's easy to get something off of one - but it would be difficult to get it out of a drawer.

The sides of Ikea drawers aren't full height, but they are taller than the sides of a pull-out drawer. We currently have pull-out. It's a big step up from the traditional bottom cabinet but it's not as easy as a drawer. I don't like having to open a door and then pull out a drawer. I guess I'm lazy.

[gardenmom5]

The sides of Ikea drawers aren't full height, but they are taller than the sides of a pull-out drawer. We currently have pull-out. It's a big step up from the traditional bottom cabinet but it's not as easy as a drawer. I don't like having to open a door and then pull out a drawer. I guess I'm lazy.

 

I've dealt with drawers at a friend's house at which I occasionally stay.  I disliked them. 

 

my pull-out trays are full extension, and have lips. 

I can easily reach anything I need - including if I have things stacked.  (.e.g. pots and pans.)

 

eta: - drawers have full height fronts which block both access and view - trays don't.

Edited December 22, 2017 by gardenmom5