Someone explain to me why unschooling isn't homescooling?

[poppy]

I don't get the separation.   Every definition I've seen of unschooling could fall into the normal spectrum of a homeschooling approach, to me.  Pay close attention to their kids needs, follow the kids interest, avoid artificial limits / expectations, do not assign curriculum (unless that is specifically what a kid desires / needs), etc.   That's not how all homeschoolers approach their kids education, obviously. But it's a part of what a many of eclectic homeschoolers do

In my region, there seems to be a wall around the unschoolers.  They're active and friendly but in some senses seem guarded and defensive and wary and talk about unschooling a whole lot   I could see the necessity of this wall if we lived in a community of conservative religious "school at home" parents, but, I live in Boston.  Land of secularism.  Lots of freak flags flying at any homeschool get together.  The unschoolers identitiy politics puzzles me here. . Unschoolers behave like..... I don't know.  Somewhere between an oppressed minority and a defiant clique (in the punks - goths tradition).

 

This isn't  a slam, I just don't get it, and want to understand better. 

 

 

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Because radical unschoolers have the reputation (from their own writings) of not encouraging learning since even encouragement is seen as not being child led. That said, unschoolers who really do follow their kids' interests and help them achieve their goals have a good reputation with me.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scrapbookbuzz]

Huh. I was always under the impression that unschooling was part of the homeschooling menu, so to speak.

We kind of do an eclectic mix here of by the book homeschooling and unschooling. I can see how families who don't

homeschool might get weird about unschooling - people fear what they don't understand. But I've never experienced 

what you've mentioned.

 

I found your comment about the punks-goths tradition amusing. I immediately pictured teen unschoolers dressed all

in black, wearing dog collars! B-)

[mom2bee]

To me, unschooling is simply a educational philosophy/method that may be used/allowed by any educator.

 

There are institutes for "unschoolers" and their are families that follow that philosophy without the support of a institute.

 

[marbel]

Unschoolers are sometimes defensive because often other homeschoolers look down on them as lazy, slacker parents.  That attitude doesn't just come from religious homeschoolers, at least in my experience.  Secular homeschoolers can be very snotty about, and proud of, their rigorous methods.  

[MysteryJen]

It seemed like when I started homeschooling (15 years ago-ack!) unschooling and homeschooling were all part of the same thing. I knew several unschoolers who did extremely well and I used quite a bit of their examples and advice. Now though, idk things seem different. Online classes and schools, enrichment days through the school district, lots of standardized testing, things feel different. Like homeschooling has gotten more "school-ly" and much more mainstream. Like it is okay to homeschool as long as the test scores stay high. 

I can see where unschoolers might feel defensive, because unschooling is really a rejection of the entire educational system and more and more homeschoolers are buying into the system, just doing the work at home.

 

Before people get all worked up, I do think following your state's rules is important, parenting is important and yes my kids took the ACT and one is currently in ps high school. Emotionally, I am an unschooler. Practically though, I only have one kid who would thrive in that worldview and he just took the ACT.

[MinivanMom]

I don't know the answer to your question, but we've been dealing with it locally as well. Many of the unschoolers are so defensive and cliquey. We have had flareups over the years in our very secular, inclusive homeschool group where unschoolers have really made everyone else feel unwelcome, and the group is now dying due to some recent events where younger, academically-oriented homeschoolers were attacked and shunned. I just don't understand how moms of unschooling teenagers can feel so threatened by moms of little ones choosing a path that's a bit more directed, especially since the older, unschooling moms have always run the group (all board positions) and set the tone for activities. It's just really unfortunate, because our group has been the only inclusive, secular group in the area; all the other groups are either radical unschoolers or religious groups that require a statement-of-faith.

 

I feel like the unschoolers I know locally want to define and control the homeschooling movement, but it's changing and evolving before their eyes. So they come down hard on all the younger moms who are taking a slightly different path. Unschooling is real homeschooling. Everyone else is "wrong".

[Ellie]

I don't get the separation.   Every definition I've seen of unschooling could fall into the normal spectrum of a homeschooling approach, to me.  Pay close attention to their kids needs, follow the kids interest, avoid artificial limits / expectations, do not assign curriculum (unless that is specifically what a kid desires / needs), etc.   That's not how all homeschoolers approach their kids education, obviously. But it's a part of what a many of eclectic homeschoolers do

 

In my region, there seems to be a wall around the unschoolers.  They're active and friendly but in some senses seem guarded and defensive and wary and talk about unschooling a whole lot   I could see the necessity of this wall if we lived in a community of conservative religious "school at home" parents, but, I live in Boston.  Land of secularism.  Lots of freak flags flying at any homeschool get together.  The unschoolers identitiy politics puzzles me here. . Unschoolers behave like..... I don't know.  Somewhere between an oppressed minority and a defiant clique (in the punks - goths tradition).

 

This isn't  a slam, I just don't get it, and want to understand better. 

 

There is no explanation. Seriously.

 

If someone is complying with the homeschool laws in her state, then she is homeschooling. Unschooling is a methodology, or a philosophy of education, the same way that classical or Charlotte Mason or Every-Day-Just-Like-School.

 

Other homeschoolers do not understand unschooling. If it does not look like School, then it cannot possibly be right. It is true that many unschoolers are, well, different. :-) But they are still homeschooling if they do not send their children to public or private schools.

 

For the record, people were unschooling long before the big explosion of homeschooling in the early 80s. One of the earliest homeschool families who made national news were from Mass. I'll think of their name...they were personal friends with John Holt, who coined the term "unschool," and Dr. Raymond Moore, and they were on national TV.

[SarahW]

I think unschoolers get defensive about the homeschooling label because it has the idea that there is schooling, just at home.

 

When I was in England I was part of a FB group for home educators (as it's called in England) and some of the members got all up in arms when one member used the word "homeschooler" to describe herself. Radical unschooling is the norm in England, and the other members were not pleased at all to have the word "school" used anywhere near them. They were quite particular that they home educate, NOT school.

 

I just shrugged. But yeah, some people are touchy.

[poppy]

It seemed like when I started homeschooling (15 years ago-ack!) unschooling and homeschooling were all part of the same thing. I knew several unschoolers who did extremely well and I used quite a bit of their examples and advice. Now though, idk things seem different. Online classes and schools, enrichment days through the school district, lots of standardized testing, things feel different. Like homeschooling has gotten more "school-ly" and much more mainstream. Like it is okay to homeschool as long as the test scores stay high. 

I can see where unschoolers might feel defensive, because unschooling is really a rejection of the entire educational system and more and more homeschoolers are buying into the system, just doing the work at home.

 

Before people get all worked up, I do think following your state's rules is important, parenting is important and yes my kids took the ACT and one is currently in ps high school. Emotionally, I am an unschooler. Practically though, I only have one kid who would thrive in that worldview and he just took the ACT.

 

See, from what I've seen it's the opposite.  There are a million ways to homeschool, a big range of option for every type of learner (accelerated / 2E / special needs / etc).  Homeschoolers like to hear others' choices experiences without necessarily thinking "oh they're doing it right / wrong".  I'm in two co-ops, and I've never once heard anyone mention test scores.  I find that  self-identified unschoolers are more likely to apply rigor - for example, to correct someone who doesn't properly understand unschooling principles.

 

[poppy]

There is no explanation. Seriously.

 

If someone is complying with the homeschool laws in her state, then she is homeschooling. Unschooling is a methodology, or a philosophy of education, the same way that classical or Charlotte Mason or Every-Day-Just-Like-School.

 

Other homeschoolers do not understand unschooling. If it does not look like School, then it cannot possibly be right. It is true that many unschoolers are, well, different. :-) But they are still homeschooling if they do not send their children to public or private schools.

 

For the record, people were unschooling long before the big explosion of homeschooling in the early 80s. One of the earliest homeschool families who made national news were from Mass. I'll think of their name...they were personal friends with John Holt, who coined the term "unschool," and Dr. Raymond Moore, and they were on national TV.

 

Ooooooh it's a John Holt thing.  That helps me understand. Thanks.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I guess there is unschooling and nonschooling. 

 

A therapist once told me she homeschooled.  What she called homeschooling was what folks on these boards call afterschooling.  That's not homeschooling.  Just like doing nothing is not homeschooling.  So basically a person can call themselves whatever they want, but that doesn't make it true.

 

And then some people are just dead against the concept.  Although I suspect that in many cases they either don't really understand the concept or have met some folks who claim to unschool, but really what they did wasn't unschooling (more non schooling).

 

I'm generally live and let live, but I've met a few radical unschoolers who had some very interesting views on things.  On the one hand they highly valued the concept of following the child's lead to an extreme.  Fine.  But that just better not include anything that resembles traditional academic pursuits.  I guess they assume that nobody would naturally choose that.  I don't agree with them on that point. 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

There is a nasty Judgy McJudgerson attitude that some (but not all) "unschooling" proponents have.

 

Just like the most fanatic "Attachment Parenting" folks will act like you're abusing your child if you don't exclusively breastfeed until the preschooler decides to self-wean, have a "family bed", wear your baby in a wrap/sling rather than using a stroller, make your own baby food from all locally sourced organic produce, yadda, yadda, yadda. I did a lot of AP practices with my own kids but I tended to keep quiet about it because AP had such a negative association.

 

Frankly, it's a lot of the same folks who do both and they're tiresome to be around. Do what works for your own family and quit the judging of those who make a different choice.

 

[poppy]

There is a nasty Judgy McJudgerson attitude that some (but not all) "unschooling" proponents have.

 

Just like the most fanatic "Attachment Parenting" folks will act like you're abusing your child if you don't exclusively breastfeed until the preschooler decides to self-wean, have a "family bed", wear your baby in a wrap/sling rather than using a stroller, make your own baby food from all locally sourced organic produce, yadda, yadda, yadda. I did a lot of AP practices with my own kids but I tended to keep quiet about it because AP had such a negative association.

 

Frankly, it's a lot of the same folks who do both and they're tiresome to be around. Do what works for your own family and quit the judging of those who make a different choice.

Oh sure. I am not bothered by stident folks too much- I just iignore them - but there are also some really likable moms/kids who have that edginess, and I guess that's who I'm trying to bridge the gap with.

[lauranc]

I guess there is unschooling and nonschooling. 

 

Yes.  There's a big difference between unschooling and what I call 'no'schooling.   

 

I used to identify what we did at home as unschooling-- back when my eldest was early elementary age.   As my kids got older, we started to do more formal work so no longer identify as unschoolers.

 

I know a few families whose 'homeschooled' kids do no work at all.  No motivation to do anything on their own, no formal work being required etc.   not unschooling-- but 'no'schooling.   Kids fight it, parents don't want the hassle of conflict so nothing gets done.

 

I think that, in general, people who unschool are looking for a very different kind of educational environment for their kids.  Lots of freedom to explore personal interests etc.   Not to say that other homeschoolers do not encourage that!  But I think unschoolers actively encourage 'real world' learning rather than something that looks like textbook learning.  It's a difference in education ideology.   But, in essence we're all homeschoolers. (maybe not the 'no'schoolers though--- I think they're just kind of hanging out at home :mellow: )

[Ellie]

When I was in England I was part of a FB group for home educators (as it's called in England) and some of the members got all up in arms when one member used the word "homeschooler" to describe herself. Radical unschooling is the norm in England, and the other members were not pleased at all to have the word "school" used anywhere near them. They were quite particular that they home educate, NOT school.

 

 

 

There are people here who get all twisted about "homeschool" vs "home educate." I can't get worked up over it. :001_smile:

[Matryoshka]

There is such a wide variety among the people who call themselves 'unschoolers'.  I have friends and acquaintances that run quite the spectrum.  Now that my oldest kids are 18, it's even more interesting to see how these differences have played out over the long haul...

 

I have a friend who always called herself an unschooler who now has college-aged kids.  I have no idea what they did in elementary/middle school other than the local coop, but her kids started with CC classes when they got to high school age.  For her, that was still unschooling because it was their choice.  The older one is a physics major in a 4-year, the younger one wants to study music, but at 19 already has two AA degrees and was taking 18 credits/semester last year.

 

In the same vein, I have another friend who hangs out on online unschooling boards and even that non-violent communication board, but I know her IRL and her kids have always had to do academics, she nags her kids, her kids take CC and online classes (even ones they're not enthused about)  - she's not so different from me. ;)  She just talks about what she does with people who don't know her very well very differently than I do.  Her oldest is at a nice private college doing great.

 

And then I have friends who have always said they were unschoolers who did nothing, or not much of anything academic. They never required their kids to stick with anything they didn't want to do. They have 18yos who can read, sure, but not really do much math.  They have also not even attempted to put a transcript together for their kids or bothered to fill out the FAFSA so they can even try out CC.  The kids feel left behind, and would like to move on - most would like to attend some kind of college - but are unsure how to do it. I feel really badly for those kids.  

 

Our local big coop has a kind of unschooly mentality.  There are some 'academic' classes but homework is optional.  I attended there for about a year when my kids were in high school, just for the social aspect.  I found it odd.  There were definitely people who were doing serious academics on non-coop days, but it was like it was on the down-low - like you weren't supposed to talk about it.  Officially, it seemed like the mantra was that the kids were following their bliss.  The one okay academic type topic was taking classes at the CC.  People got all squirrely if you talked about academic curricula or online classes or anything like that.  For example, there was one mom whose dd ended up going to an 11th/12th grade STEM charter high school that has the highest SAT scores in the state - very selective to get in, there is testing and transcripts required to even apply.  But if you talked to her at coop, she made it sound like all her kids did was theater and horses, and followed their bliss.   :confused1:

 

The problem is that all of these people call themselves unschoolers, and they're not even remotely doing the same things.

[Noreen Claire]

... I live in Boston. ...

 

I have absolutely nothing to add to the conversation, but I just wanted to wave  :seeya: hello from 30 minutes to your north.

 

Methuen, MA (on the NH border) here!

[Shellydon]

The local unschoolers (their label) I know do zero school.  Some don't even teach their children to read.  I met a high schooler this week that can barely write.  She was unable to copy a list for her mom of 10 names for her mom.    I would think that they would catch flak for that kind of poor education and therefore would be more closed off.  I could be wrong.

[bettyandbob]

Unschooling is a genre of homeschooling.

 

Unschooling is not the same as NOTschooling. Some people seem to mix that up.

[38carrots]

There is a nasty Judgy McJudgerson attitude that some (but not all) "unschooling" proponents have.

 

Just like the most fanatic "Attachment Parenting" folks will act like you're abusing your child if you don't exclusively breastfeed until the preschooler decides to self-wean, have a "family bed", wear your baby in a wrap/sling rather than using a stroller, make your own baby food from all locally sourced organic produce, yadda, yadda, yadda. I did a lot of AP practices with my own kids but I tended to keep quiet about it because AP had such a negative association.

 

Frankly, it's a lot of the same folks who do both and they're tiresome to be around. Do what works for your own family and quit the judging of those who make a different choice.

 

Funny, as an unschooler, I encounter this very same judgy attitude from school-at-home parents. Regional differences, I bet.

[38carrots]

There is such a wide variety among the people who call themselves 'unschoolers'.  I have friends and acquaintances that run quite the spectrum.  Now that my oldest kids are 18, it's even more interesting to see how these differences have played out over the long haul...

 

I have a friend who always called herself an unschooler who now has college-aged kids.  I have no idea what they did in elementary/middle school other than the local coop, but her kids started with CC classes when they got to high school age.  For her, that was still unschooling because it was their choice.  The older one is a physics major in a 4-year, the younger one wants to study music, but at 19 already has two AA degrees and was taking 18 credits/semester last year.

 

In the same vein, I have another friend who hangs out on online unschooling boards and even that non-violent communication board, but I know her IRL and her kids have always had to do academics, she nags her kids, her kids take CC and online classes (even ones they're not enthused about)  - she's not so different from me. ;)  She just talks about what she does with people who don't know her very well very differently than I do.  Her oldest is at a nice private college doing great.

 

And then I have friends who have always said they were unschoolers who did nothing, or not much of anything academic. They never required their kids to stick with anything they didn't want to do. They have 18yos who can read, sure, but not really do much math.  They have also not even attempted to put a transcript together for their kids or bothered to fill out the FAFSA so they can even try out CC.  The kids feel left behind, and would like to move on - most would like to attend some kind of college - but are unsure how to do it. I feel really badly for those kids.  

 

Our local big coop has a kind of unschooly mentality.  There are some 'academic' classes but homework is optional.  I attended there for about a year when my kids were in high school, just for the social aspect.  I found it odd.  There were definitely people who were doing serious academics on non-coop days, but it was like it was on the down-low - like you weren't supposed to talk about it.  Officially, it seemed like the mantra was that the kids were following their bliss.  The one okay academic type topic was taking classes at the CC.  People got all squirrely if you talked about academic curricula or online classes or anything like that.  For example, there was one mom whose dd ended up going to an 11th/12th grade STEM charter high school that has the highest SAT scores in the state - very selective to get in, there is testing and transcripts required to even apply.  But if you talked to her at coop, she made it sound like all her kids did was theater and horses, and followed their bliss.   :confused1:

 

The problem is that all of these people call themselves unschoolers, and they're not even remotely doing the same things.

 

Is this any different from those who call themselves "homeschoolers", yet they are not even remotely doing the same things? Never mind all of those who call themselves "classical homeschoolers" and yet they are not doing the same thing either?

 

 

[bettyandbob]

Adding...

 

Unschooled I have known follow an interest of the child and help the child learn what the child wants on the subject. So, the parent helps the child access resources. Accessing resources may mean reading to the child rather teaching the child to read until the child decides to learn to read, but even if the child is not reading he is learning about a subject and doing activities he likes related to the subject.

 

There are other ways to unschool.

 

I have known people who said they were unschooling who simply didn't get involved in their dc's activities or interests at all. Some dc might have been learn in depth, while others spent days filling time randomly.

 

To me unschooling is definitely child led, but that doesn't mean complete lack of parent attention.

[Seasider]

I believe there is a true divide between unschooling and notschooling. IME, bona fide unschoolers outdo themselves in establishing rich learning environments and empower their students to learn through following sparks of interest, all the while gently facilitating interdisciplinary skill/knowledge development.

 

Notschoolers are lazy/incapable shammers who short change their children of an education while loudly calling themselves unschoolers.

 

Sorry, I confess to feeling strongly about this after seeing kids suffer from the second model.

[Matryoshka]

Is this any different from those who call themselves "homeschoolers", yet they are not even remotely doing the same things? Never mind all of those who call themselves "classical homeschoolers" and yet they are not doing the same thing either?

 

LOL - I don't think any two homeschoolers are doing the same things. :lol:

 

I think it only becomes an issue with unschooling with the ones that get all "you're abusing your child" if you say you have them do any academics or in any way set parameters on their whims or what they feel like doing (what, you limit their screen time?), or alternatively the ones who are actually doing academics but act like they're not, and mislead newbies looking for role models and trying to figure out what to do.  And I think a lot of the time the former types cause the latter problem.  People don't want to be bashed for requiring any academics, so they pretend they're not to get along with the group.

 

Or the ones with kids who naturally unschool academics whose moms act like what worked for their kids will work for everyone "yeah, my kid locked themselves in their room for four years with occasional requests for pizza, then attended an Ivy-league university with a double-major in physics and Japanese - your kid will be fine too."  That's an anecdote, not a recipe...

[ScoutTN]

Unschooling is a genre of homeschooling.

 

Unschooling is not the same as NOTschooling. Some people seem to mix that up.

Yes, this distinction becomes tricky when parents who are not in fact educating their kids claim tge unschooler label.

[MistyMountain]

I was only in a local group for a little bit since I did not end up homeschooling but the dynamics were like the AP or crunchy thing. People acted like it was them versus the mainstream and would comment negatively and be judgemental about educational methods that were not unschooling or super relaxed and child based and they shared tons of articles on it. They also posted a lot about things like the evils of vaccinations and GMOs. Conversations were steered away from curriculum choices and went towards being told to not worry and try coming up with something around their interests even when it did not make sense based on what the person was asking help about. It is strange that for a group that worries so much about being judged did a lot of judging themselves. I was hoping for a more diverse group that had different education philosophies that were all accepted and advice was given keeping that in mind. Most people were probably fine with people being different but there would be a few that really dominated.

Edited October 8, 2016 by MistyMountain

[HomeMum]

My experience with unschoolers is that quite a lot of them aren't quite as extreme as the stereotype. Its always child-led, but parents do encourage certain things.. sometimes.

[MysteryJen]

Here almost no one calls themselves unschoolers (maybe we are too far away from John Holt country). But I have known people who purchase lots of curriculum, pose as academic and rigorous homeschoolers, but in reality they are not finishing books, not requiring work, and act surprised when test scores are poor or worse yet, when ACT or SAT scores are not good. Someone here had a quote "the best curriculum is the one that gets done." Don't lie to yourself or others. If you are child-led, be your child's partner, find books, classes, experiences. If you say you are an academic homeschooler, finish the book, do the homework for co-op. They are both learning styles. But doing nothing, in both cases, is bad for everyone. I don't defend homeschoolers anymore because I have been burned too many times with confessions of "we haven't done math in over a year" and others.

[MinivanMom]

LOL - I don't think any two homeschoolers are doing the same things. :lol:

 

I think it only becomes an issue with unschooling with the ones that get all "you're abusing your child" if you say you have them do any academics or in any way set parameters on their whims or what they feel like doing (what, you limit their screen time?), or alternatively the ones who are actually doing academics but act like they're not, and mislead newbies looking for role models and trying to figure out what to do.  And I think a lot of the time the former types cause the latter problem.  People don't want to be bashed for requiring any academics, so they pretend they're not to get along with the group.

 

Or the ones with kids who naturally unschool academics whose moms act like what worked for their kids will work for everyone "yeah, my kid locked themselves in their room for four years with occasional requests for pizza, then attended an Ivy-league university with a double-major in physics and Japanese - your kid will be fine too."  That's an anecdote, not a recipe...

 

This is exactly the dynamic in our local homeschool community. People are afraid to admit they do anything organized or academic, because older unschooling moms will jump all over them and shame them. For years I was the friendly greeter at our park days, but I was always getting jumped on by the unschoolers if I answered the genuine questions of younger moms or newbies. I finally dropped that role and stopped attending park days, because it was just too much conflict and confrontation.

 

And what was I supposed to do when someone asked what math curriculum we used, just pretend my kids magically learned to multiply & divide by playing with blocks? I have one kid like that - so I know it can happen - but I've definitely been teaching the other four, and I don't think I should have to hide that like I'm ashamed.

[Guest]

I've lived all over and seen the homeschooling styles spectrum play out a few different ways.

 

In Boston my experience has been that homeschoolers just DON'T want to talk about academics. Even if they do them rigorously every day...conversation tends toward the most relaxed or FUN! element of whatever you're doing. I havn't been in town long enough to offer an hypothesis as to why that is. And if I did have an hypothesis, I'd keep it to myself :laugh:

[Guest]

Here almost no one calls themselves unschoolers (maybe we are too far away from John Holt country). But I have known people who purchase lots of curriculum, pose as academic and rigorous homeschoolers, but in reality they are not finishing books, not requiring work, and act surprised when test scores are poor or worse yet, when ACT or SAT scores are not good. Someone here had a quote "the best curriculum is the one that gets done." Don't lie to yourself or others. If you are child-led, be your child's partner, find books, classes, experiences. If you say you are an academic homeschooler, finish the book, do the homework for co-op. They are both learning styles. But doing nothing, in both cases, is bad for everyone. I don't defend homeschoolers anymore because I have been burned too many times with confessions of "we haven't done math in over a year" and others.

 

:iagree:

[Guest]

There is no explanation. Seriously.

 

If someone is complying with the homeschool laws in her state, then she is homeschooling. Unschooling is a methodology, or a philosophy of education, the same way that classical or Charlotte Mason or Every-Day-Just-Like-School.

 

Other homeschoolers do not understand unschooling. If it does not look like School, then it cannot possibly be right. It is true that many unschoolers are, well, different. :-) But they are still homeschooling if they do not send their children to public or private schools.

 

For the record, people were unschooling long before the big explosion of homeschooling in the early 80s. One of the earliest homeschool families who made national news were from Mass. I'll think of their name...they were personal friends with John Holt, who coined the term "unschool," and Dr. Raymond Moore, and they were on national TV.

Were those the ones on Donahue? If so it's on YouTube. I've watched it. The audience reaction especially is just a trip. It's worth pulling up just for that.

 

ETA- these were from RI and UT so not who you were referring to Ellie. But I thought I would post nonetheless for entertainment purposes of the 80's wayback machine. I might catch some flack for homeschooling but I'm glad it's not from a studio audience!

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by texasmom33

[luuknam]

I have absolutely nothing to add to the conversation, but I just wanted to wave  :seeya: hello from 30 minutes to your north.

 

Me neither, other than that I had her pegged as being from Seattle.

[Lady Florida.]

I guess there is unschooling and nonschooling. 

 

 

 

There's also unschooling and unparenting. I've known some radical unschoolers whose kids had free reign to do whatever they wanted to whenever they wanted to. And it showed.

 

My answer to that is that I'm a mammal not a reptile. I don't just lay my eggs and leave*. Like other mammals, humans teach their children what's acceptable in their social structure.

 

*Yes I know there are some reptiles who do raise their young. I used that statement knowing it was hyperbole.

[Seasider]

Here almost no one calls themselves unschoolers (maybe we are too far away from John Holt country). But I have known people who purchase lots of curriculum, pose as academic and rigorous homeschoolers, but in reality they are not finishing books, not requiring work, and act surprised when test scores are poor or worse yet, when ACT or SAT scores are not good. Someone here had a quote "the best curriculum is the one that gets done." Don't lie to yourself or others. If you are child-led, be your child's partner, find books, classes, experiences. If you say you are an academic homeschooler, finish the book, do the homework for co-op. They are both learning styles. But doing nothing, in both cases, is bad for everyone. I don't defend homeschoolers anymore because I have been burned too many times with confessions of "we haven't done math in over a year" and others.

Preach it!

[poppy]

Me neither, other than that I had her pegged as being from Seattle.

 

......... not sure if that's an insult or a compliment :lol:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Me neither, other than that I had her pegged as being from Seattle.

 

You have her confused with Natalie Claire

[poppy]

This is exactly the dynamic in our local homeschool community. People are afraid to admit they do anything organized or academic, because older unschooling moms will jump all over them and shame them. For years I was the friendly greeter at our park days, but I was always getting jumped on by the unschoolers if I answered the genuine questions of younger moms or newbies. I finally dropped that role and stopped attending park days, because it was just too much conflict and confrontation.

 

And what was I supposed to do when someone asked what math curriculum we used, just pretend my kids magically learned to multiply & divide by playing with blocks? I have one kid like that - so I know it can happen - but I've definitely been teaching the other four, and I don't think I should have to hide that like I'm ashamed.

 

Ha, I do know one mom with a kid like that, who says if we just display trust our kids will figure it all out themselves........ she has one kid, and that kid DOES work that way.  Which is just delightful for her. But I gotta be honest, I kinda wish a second kid on her.    Just like I wish that second kid on the mom whose 6 year old eat softshelled crabs and brussell spouts "because we model good eating in our house and calmly explain the benefits of eating a variety of nutritious foods".   

[SparklyUnicorn]

There's also unschooling and unparenting. I've known some radical unschoolers whose kids had free reign to do whatever they wanted to whenever they wanted to. And it showed.

 

My answer to that is that I'm a mammal not a reptile. I don't just lay my eggs and leave*. Like other mammals, humans teach their children what's acceptable in their social structure.

 

*Yes I know there are some reptiles who do raise their young. I used that statement knowing it was hyperbole.

 

Yeah.  Like when someone's kid bit mine and the parent believed in natural consequences?  Like what?  Me bopping him in the head?  Of course not!  He's a kid and I'm an adult, but his parent said nothing and of course I can't do anything either.  And I certainly won't let my kid bop him in the head either.

 

So I dunno, some of these people have some pretty messed up ideas.  Their kids might turn out great.  I hope so, but their natural consequence might be prison.

[SereneHome]

I have absolutely nothing to add to the conversation, but I just wanted to wave  :seeya: hello from 30 minutes to your north.

 

Methuen, MA (on the NH border) here!

 

Oh lordy, you are like 10 min from me - I am in NH :)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

This is exactly the dynamic in our local homeschool community. People are afraid to admit they do anything organized or academic, because older unschooling moms will jump all over them and shame them. For years I was the friendly greeter at our park days, but I was always getting jumped on by the unschoolers if I answered the genuine questions of younger moms or newbies. I finally dropped that role and stopped attending park days, because it was just too much conflict and confrontation.

 

And what was I supposed to do when someone asked what math curriculum we used, just pretend my kids magically learned to multiply & divide by playing with blocks? I have one kid like that - so I know it can happen - but I've definitely been teaching the other four, and I don't think I should have to hide that like I'm ashamed.

 

I've lived all over and seen the homeschooling styles spectrum play out a few different ways.

 

In Boston my experience has been that homeschoolers just DON'T want to talk about academics. Even if they do them rigorously every day...conversation tends toward the most relaxed or FUN! element of whatever you're doing. I havn't been in town long enough to offer an hypothesis as to why that is. And if I did have an hypothesis, I'd keep it to myself :laugh:

 

Honestly, this is why I don't talk about academics among HSers in real life anymore. Around here the secular HSers also tend to be more relaxed/unschooly, and we are secular homeschoolers who are also academic-oriented. I'm just not going to argue with people, and people seem to really want to argue. I've been in conversations with other academic HSers and had more relaxed or unschooly parents jump right in and start arguing over why what we're working on is pointless or unnecessary. I was sitting at our co-op table lesson planning while the woman next to me started a very loud diatribe about the superiority of unschooling. I finally got up and left the room with all my stuff. It just happened again today at co-op. So now academics are in the same boat as politics, religion, and vaccinations for me--I just don't discuss them in real life unless it's with someone who I know is truly interested in having a conversation or hearing my thoughts on the subject, and even then I feel very uncomfortable if we're in a larger group. Most of the time, I just keep it light and friendly. 

 

I'm sure those on the other end of the spectrum have had similar experiences, too, which is why I suspect many homeschoolers just don't discuss this stuff IRL.

 

ETA: I forgot to answer the main question. Personally, I do consider unschoolers to be homeschoolers. Of the unschooling families that I know, most really work hard to keep their kids engaged and learning in their own ways. My own issue is not so much with the educational philosophy, but more with the parenting philosophy. In general, they're not families I choose to spend time with because their approach to life makes both the kids and the parents unpleasant for me to be around. I'm fine with that--they have plenty of friends who do like to be around them, and we have plenty of other people we like to spend time with. But I still consider them to be homeschoolers!

Edited October 8, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Epicurean]

I don't know. Technically, unschooling and not-schooling are different. But if the overlap is so large that if, say, a majority of self-proclaimed unschoolers are not-schoolers, the distinction doesn't seem to matter. We don't have any hard data to really know how big the overlap is. But in my experience, actual unschoolers are the exception, not the rule. And that seems to be a lot of other people's experience, too. I can think of a dozen different families I've personally met who unschool, and only one really merits the name. Heck, my DH's parents were unschoolers, and they were definitely the lazy variety that boasted that DH didn't need formal education because he was so naturally curious about the world, but they had no motivation to put in the work of encouraging him to pursue his interests (there was basically no parental involvement in his education at all, even when he asked for it).

[Guest]

Honestly, this is why I don't talk about academics among HSers in real life anymore. Around here the secular HSers also tend to be more relaxed/unschooly, and we are secular homeschoolers who are also academic-oriented. I'm just not going to argue with people, and people seem to really want to argue. I've been in conversations with other academic HSers and had more relaxed or unschooly parents jump right in and start arguing over why what we're working on is pointless or unnecessary. I was sitting at our co-op table lesson planning while the woman next to me started a very loud diatribe about the superiority of unschooling. I finally got up and left the room with all my stuff. It just happened again today at co-op. So now academics are in the same boat as politics, religion, and vaccinations for me--I just don't discuss them in real life unless it's with someone who I know is truly interested in having a conversation or hearing my thoughts on the subject, and even then I feel very uncomfortable if we're in a larger group. Most of the time, I just keep it light and friendly.

 

I'm sure those on the other end of the spectrum have had similar experiences, too, which is why I suspect many homeschoolers just don't discuss this stuff IRL.

I havn't encountered any hostility like that at all! What a drag, geez.

 

Oh wait no, I have. But it was somewhere else and it was Waldorf not unschool hahaha

 

I think it's a few bad potatoes ruining the whole crop.

[Crimson Wife]

I don't know. Technically, unschooling and not-schooling are different. But if the overlap is so large that if, say, a majority of self-proclaimed unschoolers are not-schoolers, the distinction doesn't seem to matter. We don't have any hard data to really know how big the overlap is. But in my experience, actual unschoolers are the exception, not the rule. And that seems to be a lot of other people's experience, too. I can think of a dozen different families I've personally met who unschool, and only one really merits the name.

 

I don't think that the majority of "unschoolers" are not-schoolers. But the not-schoolers embrace the "unschooling" label as cover for educationally neglecting their kids. And the "unschoolers" who are working really hard to facilitate child-directed learning and foster a good learning environment in their homes aren't calling out the not-schoolers over it.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I havn't encountered any hostility like that at all! What a drag, geez.

 

Oh wait no, I have. But it was somewhere else and it was Waldorf not unschool hahaha

 

I think it's a few bad potatoes ruining the whole crop.

 

I'm sure you're right about the bad apples. I don't know if I even consider it hostility--I think it's more...a mommy wars thing? People needing to assert their opinions to make themselves feel better about their choices? I don't know. One person who did it to me is a good friend, so I know she's not hostile toward me, but no one seems to recognize that different kids need different approaches than the one they chose for themselves, and different parents have different goals for their kids. Even the die-hard unschooler in our midst who ended up having kids who are thriving in public schools refuses to see that unschooling isn't always what's best for every kid. But...public schooling can sometimes be what's best for them? :confused1:  I don't know. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Lady Florida.]

I don't think that the majority of "unschoolers" are not-schoolers. But the not-schoolers embrace the "unschooling" label as cover for educationally neglecting their kids. And the "unschoolers" who are working really hard to facilitate child-directed learning and foster a good learning environment in their homes aren't calling out the not-schoolers over it.

 

I agree, and they're also the kind of unparents I referred to in my previous post. To be fair though, the majority of unschoolers I know are very conscientious and wonderful parents. It's a shame that others take the label of unschooler and make so many look bad.

[luuknam]

......... not sure if that's an insult or a compliment :lol:

 

Neither.

 

You have her confused with Natalie Claire

 

I have no idea who that is.

[KungFuPanda]

I'm a teeny bit envious of people who can get worked up about it. I'm old, tired, limping to the finish and kinda miss having the energy and interest to debate these homeschooling topics. I used to love those discussions, but now I'm all "two more years and I'm OUT." I admire people who can pull this off with large families. I'm getting my second and last child through high school and I am so over doing high school in my life. I miss being excited about this stuff.

[Mergath]

There is a nasty Judgy McJudgerson attitude that some (but not all) "unschooling" proponents have.

 

Just like the most fanatic "Attachment Parenting" folks will act like you're abusing your child if you don't exclusively breastfeed until the preschooler decides to self-wean, have a "family bed", wear your baby in a wrap/sling rather than using a stroller, make your own baby food from all locally sourced organic produce, yadda, yadda, yadda. I did a lot of AP practices with my own kids but I tended to keep quiet about it because AP had such a negative association.

 

Frankly, it's a lot of the same folks who do both and they're tiresome to be around. Do what works for your own family and quit the judging of those who make a different choice.

 

Omg, yes. I'm in an unschooling group on FB (because I find it fascinating and I have vaguely unschooly tendencies) and I can't even count the number of posts I've seen that are some variation of, "I spent the afternoon weeping because a friend told me she made her child do a math worksheet. That poor, precious baby." Give me a break. And don't even think about admitting that you limit screen time. Not letting your kids spend eighteen hours a day playing Minecraft is treated like child abuse.