Someone explain to me why unschooling isn't homescooling?

[poppy]

Omg, yes. I'm in an unschooling group on FB (because I find it fascinating and I have vaguely unschooly tendencies) and I can't even count the number of posts I've seen that are some variation of, "I spent the afternoon weeping because a friend told me she made her child do a math worksheet. That poor, precious baby." Give me a break. And don't even think about admitting that you limit screen time. Not letting your kids spend eighteen hours a day playing Minecraft is treated like child abuse. 

 

I too am in a couple FB groups with unschoolers and there is an almost fanatical devotion to unlimited screen time .  And people who don't have TVs get scolded for it.  I  never, ever bring it up.  I think it's because it's absolutely child led and is probably many kids primary/only exposure  to explicit instruction --- not just nonfiction tv, the things we learn from sitcoms / dramas, plus the troubleshooting and strategic thinking of videogames.   (All attainable from books, of course, if one so chooses....)  If it is how your child chooses to learn by spending most of the day there, taking it away is metaphorically like removing curriculum?

[poppy]

I was curious. Most of the unschool groups are on the opposite side of town and hour away. This was on their meet-up page.

 

 

 

Sounds a little defensive, but clearly they are trying to separate themselves from the nonschoolers.  I'm not sure what they mean by "unschooling for everything but math is not possible." I don't know nearly as much as I'd like to about unschooling. 

 

They are also clearly separating themselves from being called homeschoolers:  "Eclectic homeschooling, relaxed homeschooling, and unit studies are not unschooling."    They very much want to be seen as a separate animal.  (I hate using the word "they" here, like I am talking about zoo animals..... i don't mean it that way).

 

This is why I started the thread. To me it feels like a group of homeschoolers who bristle at being associated with ...... me.    It is not a "this is great, dip your toe in, welcome!" it is "you are with us, or against us, or you just don't get it yet".  That identity politics is something I don't see anywhere else in homeschooling.  (But I don't know any fundies, maybe they are like that?) It interests me.

[poppy]

I've lived all over and seen the homeschooling styles spectrum play out a few different ways.

 

In Boston my experience has been that homeschoolers just DON'T want to talk about academics. Even if they do them rigorously every day...conversation tends toward the most relaxed or FUN! element of whatever you're doing. I havn't been in town long enough to offer an hypothesis as to why that is. And if I did have an hypothesis, I'd keep it to myself :laugh:

 

This is so true, about Boston.

I'd LOVE to hear your hypothesis, or at least, your guide to homeschooler quirks across the us.

[Guest]

This is so true, about Boston.

I'd LOVE to hear your hypothesis, or at least, your guide to homeschooler quirks across the us.

 

I feel like people here don't really talk about their job that much, regardless of what work they do. Have you noticed that?

 

Conversely, in another state I lived in, almost every conversation eventually turned into something about work. Usually a complaint.

[poppy]

Ah yes. The no bragging thing.

 

 

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[marbel]

I feel like I live in an alternate universe from y'all.  

 

I've homeschooled in two states - Oregon and Pennsylvania.  I've known all sorts of homeschoolers in both places, though more in Oregon because it's just more accepted there.  People here still go "huh?" when the word is mentioned.    In neither place have I run across rude, militant unschoolers.   If anything, the unschoolers are shunned because they are not academic enough.   People will say things like "unschooling?  Well, I guess it's OK for some people but I want my kids to go to college."   As if no unschooler ever went to college.  (I know quite a few who are doing well, including one who got his MBA and has embarked on a promising career in business.)     

 

BTW I was never an unschooler.  I think it is a great lifestyle but it didn't fit my kids.  

 

I don't see anything wrong with the website excerpt posted above. They are defining unschooling. It is different from unit studies, eclectic homeschooling, etc.  What is wrong with pointing that out? People are happy enough to point out what classical education is and is not.   Etc.  

 

I can think of a couple of reasons people don't talk about academics much at park day or other social events:  1. they are afraid they will come up short compared to others (I can't be the only who's gotten the sneer for not using the right curriculum); 2: they have been immersed in academics all week and would like to talk about something different for a change.  

 

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by marbel

[EmseB]

Around here I don't know many unschoolers, but I do feel like a bit of an outlier in some respects because we only do one day of the week at co-op and maybe one field trip per month in addition to that.

 

There are people I know do one or two co-ops, plus are organizing 2-3 field trips per month, or additional group classes at various places.

 

I know that we are heavy on the academic side of things in our house compared to some, but I just can't figure out how (outside of unschooling) one could actually get school done if they are out of the house 3 days a week.  Plus it makes me exhausted just thinking about it.

[forty-two]

I was curious. Most of the unschool groups are on the opposite side of town and hour away. This was on their meet-up page.

 

 

 

Sounds a little defensive, but clearly they are trying to separate themselves from the nonschoolers.  I'm not sure what they mean by "unschooling for everything but math is not possible." I don't know nearly as much as I'd like to about unschooling. 

 

WRT "unschooling for everything but math isn't possible" - it's part of "part-time unschooling isn't possible".  And ime, that's because unschooling is often seen as a lifestyle, a way of living out particular convictions about the nature of kids and humanity and the right way to treat each other in light of those inherently moral convictions.  And so unschooling "part-time" is comparable to following the Golden Rule "part-time" or being kind and generous "part-time" or not stealing "part-time".  Unschooling when you can but giving up on unschooling when it's hard or seems impossible or when unschooling prevents you from accomplishing something else - that's making your unschooling convictions secondary.  (And generally when people set aside their moral convictions when it's hard or inconvenient or their morals prevent them from accomplishing something "more important" - it says something about how much - or little - they truly value those convictions.) 

 

Saying you are a part-time unschooler is like saying you are a Christian on the weekends (but not during the week) or you are a Buddhist after school (but not during school) or you are a Muslim during everything but math class.  And incorporating some unschooling practices into your otherwise not-unschooling life is more like borrowing a practice or two from a religious tradition than it is actually being part of that religious tradition.  Radical unschooling, ime, is much more like a secular way of moral living than it is a schooling method. 

[marbel]

Around here I don't know many unschoolers, but I do feel like a bit of an outlier in some respects because we only do one day of the week at co-op and maybe one field trip per month in addition to that.

 

There are people I know do one or two co-ops, plus are organizing 2-3 field trips per month, or additional group classes at various places.

 

I know that we are heavy on the academic side of things in our house compared to some, but I just can't figure out how (outside of unschooling) one could actually get school done if they are out of the house 3 days a week.  Plus it makes me exhausted just thinking about it.

 

I don't get this.  Co-ops can be academic.  Group classes certainly can be academic.   Why do you think people can't get school done outside the house?   

[Ellie]

The CA folks were David and Micki Colfax and they were a LONG ways from unschooling. 

 

Huh. I wouldn't say that at all.

[poppy]

I feel like I live in an alternate universe from y'all.

 

I've homeschooled in two states - Oregon and Pennsylvania. I've known all sorts of homeschoolers in both places, though more in Oregon because it's just more accepted there. People here still go "huh?" when the word is mentioned. In neither place have I run across rude, militant unschoolers. If anything, the unschoolers are run shunned because they are not academic enough. People will say things like "unschooling? Well, I guess it's OK for some people but I want my kids to go to college." As if no unschooler ever went to college. (I know quite a few who are doing well, including one who got his MBA and has embarked on a promising career in business.)

 

BTW I was never an unschooler. I think it is a great lifestyle but it didn't fit my kids.

 

I don't see anything wrong with the website excerpt posted above. They are defining unschooling. It is different from unit studies, eclectic homeschooling, etc. What is wrong with pointing that out? People are happy enough to point out what classical education is and is not. Etc.

 

I can think of a couple of reasons people don't talk about academics much at park day or other social events: 1. they are afraid they will come up short compared to others (I can't be the only who who's gotten the sneer for not using the right curriculum); 2: they have been immersed in academics all week and would like to talk about something different for a change.

Nothing wrong with the website excerpt above and I hope this isn't viewed as a bashing thread.

 

What is curious to me about unschooling is the line between what is a technique / practice and what an identity. (For example - they aren't saying if you throw in some math you aren't really following unschooling -- they are saying you aren't an unschooler).

 

 

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Edited October 8, 2016 by poppy

[mellifera33]

I love talking curriculum, but I've learned to feel out the landscape before I get too deep--I've had a few instances where I naively answered a question about curric with a long list of everything we use only to get the "well, we unschool." And then hear about how curriculum kills creativity, is inherently coersive, etc. Now if someone I don't know well asks me what we use, I give a noncommittal "a bit of this, a bit of that...and you?" before talking currics.

[Mrs.Wilson]

If they live in a state where they have to keep track of their hours/work and maybe test... How do they do that?  

[forty-two]

What is curious to me about unschooling is the line between what is a technique / practice and what an identity. (For example - they aren't saying if you throw in some math you aren't really following unschooling -- they are saying you aren't an unschooler).

 

I wonder if it has to do with whether generic you is unschooling in service of a different higher good (the higher good is the higher priority and you fit your unschooling into that), or whether the goals of unschooling *are* your higher good, your unschooling convictions are your *core* convictions and underlay everything else you do in life.

 

[marbel]

If they live in a state where they have to keep track of their hours/work and maybe test... How do they do that?  

 

PA requires a portfolio of work, documentation of hours/days, and testing in grades 3, 5, and 8

 

Unschoolers I know include things they've written, photos of stuff they've done/built/made, lists of books read, programs from music recitals, photos from field trips, stuff like that. Most count every day, or every weekday, as a schoolday.  They test as required.   One student I knew built stuff, and included a page or two of math calculations for how much wood was needed, etc.  Scouts may include worksheets they've done for merit badges (I am thinking specifically of Boy Scouts, as that's what I know).  

 

Sometimes unschoolers do use worksheets.  Some kids like them.  :-)

[Guest]

If they live in a state where they have to keep track of their hours/work and maybe test... How do they do that?  

 

Just write down what they do do, and take the test.

 

----------------------------

 

I did remember another time someone dressed me down for how I homeschool It was a CC person. CC won't even let me in :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  Nevermind my own misgivings about it. A real true believer, that one was.

 

[Farrar]

I've seen the cliqueish, we're different attitude online from unschoolers a lot, but in person only a few times. The unschoolers around here are mostly part of the same overlapping networks as the other secular-reasoned (as in, many are religious, but not their reasons for homeschooling) homeschoolers we know. They're mostly what I would call relatively moderate in their attitudes. Most have their kids taking some classes and do some learning that looks a bit more formal that's requested by the kids for certain goals. 

 

Legally speaking, it is homeschooling.

 

I get frustrated by the unschooling vs. "not-schooling" distinction. I have no doubt after things I've read from people online, that some people using the unschool mantle have been deeply misled by philosophy to the point that they're do a grave disservice to their kids by actively denying them educational resources or by not helping the kids learn boundaries that the kids themselves are asking for. But... I don't think that's the norm and I think it's hard to know from the outside what's happening.

[EmseB]

I don't get this. Co-ops can be academic. Group classes certainly can be academic. Why do you think people can't get school done outside the house?

Of course people can do school outside of the house. :)

 

I guess it is individual to the circles I travel in. Academic co-ops here are tutorial style, meaning they do lesson(s) in a class once per week and then assign a week's (4 more school days) worth of work to complete at home. The non-academic co-ops are useful to fulfill state standards of art, music, P.E., etc, but aren't academic. Add in a field trip day and a half day out for cooking class or a knitting class or a robotics class. Add in a sport or music lessons. If someone is unschooling and doesn't do an academic co-op with work to complete at home, I can sort of get it. But if you're not unschooling and you're expecting kids to do all of that plus daily math and language arts that is a TON and like I said, I cannot figure out how we would get it all in. I could not do an academic coop/tutorial and also routinely do full days out of the house to do other stuff too. Maybe I'm just low energy, or my kids are. They could not cope with that schedule or workload.

[marbel]

I've seen the cliqueish, we're different attitude online from unschoolers a lot, but in person only a few times. The unschoolers around here are mostly part of the same overlapping networks as the other secular-reasoned (as in, many are religious, but not their reasons for homeschooling) homeschoolers we know. They're mostly what I would call relatively moderate in their attitudes. Most have their kids taking some classes and do some learning that looks a bit more formal that's requested by the kids for certain goals. 

 

Legally speaking, it is homeschooling.

 

I get frustrated by the unschooling vs. "not-schooling" distinction. I have no doubt after things I've read from people online, that some people using the unschool mantle have been deeply misled by philosophy to the point that they're do a grave disservice to their kids by actively denying them educational resources or by not helping the kids learn boundaries that the kids themselves are asking for. But... I don't think that's the norm and I think it's hard to know from the outside what's happening.

 

 

Yes.  The unschooled high schoolers I know (and just know of) happily take classes, use textbooks, etc., when they have a specific goal they want to achieve, and they determine the class/textbook is the best way to achieve it.     

[38carrots]

They are also clearly separating themselves from being called homeschoolers:  "Eclectic homeschooling, relaxed homeschooling, and unit studies are not unschooling."    They very much want to be seen as a separate animal.  (I hate using the word "they" here, like I am talking about zoo animals..... i don't mean it that way).

 

This is why I started the thread. To me it feels like a group of homeschoolers who bristle at being associated with ...... me.    It is not a "this is great, dip your toe in, welcome!" it is "you are with us, or against us, or you just don't get it yet".  That identity politics is something I don't see anywhere else in homeschooling.  (But I don't know any fundies, maybe they are like that?) It interests me.

 

I guess it is a response to those who say: Hi! My children are 5, 3 and 6 months and we unschool! Except for math, language arts, nature study on Tuesday mornings, foreign languages with a tutor and everyone is required to study ancient history, of course. For everything else we unschool!

 

This is actually almost verbatim from a new member introduction on a homeschooling forum.

 

Unschoolers are not separating themselves from homeschoolers, at least not in the above example. They are simply stating which sub-set of homeschooling they are not. The same as saying that Waldorf homeschooling, with the delayed reading and academics, is not the same as a WTM homeschooling.

 

I think those who are new to unschooling and need unschooling support want to belong to groups which are actually unschooling, and not too eclectic. Those who have unschooled for a while love to hang out on the WTM boards because there's a wealth of awesome information here and a great group of people. :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs.Wilson]

I think any homeschooler does their child(ren) a disservice if they adhere to any one philosophy stringently.  The whole point of homeschooling is for your child(ren) to be educated in a way that works for them.  For some that's unschooling while for others it's more of a strict schedule.  

 

When my firstborn was ready to start learning on a more official level I was really disappointed that worksheets and a schedule worked better for him than learning by playing.  I didn't know anything about unschooling, so I don't believe that was my goal.  But, I though homeschooling was supposed to be... well, not worksheets and a schedule like a brick and mortar school.

[SunshineMom]

In our experiences with unschoolers (years in a social group & co-op type setting) over the last ten years, about 60% of the kids have a learning disability.

[idnib]

The web site blurb mostly makes sense to me, although I do think it can be less stringent and people can unschool certain subjects. (I know unschoolers generally won't agree with me, and I can live with that.)

 

The sentence in the blurb which rustled my feathers, though, was that an uninterested child is not a learning child. Really? Does anyone really believe that people don't learn things unless they're interested in them?  :confused1:

Edited October 8, 2016 by idnib

[forty-two]

I must not get it. I say I unschool music, because how else do I describe leaving out instruments, discovering new songs and bands together, but I don't teach them music? They have picked up the guitar and piano on their own and self-taught. They type out lyrics to their favorite songs and my oldest has filled a notebook with all of the songs he's written. I "facilitated their current interest" and plan to "cultivate new ones" by getting an electronic drum set for Christmas to bang their hearts out as much as they want. Yet, I haven't done a thing to teach them. My oldest  asked for a program that can teach him how to read music and music theory so he can read the Depeche Mode book dh had as a teen. I wouldn't call myself an unschooler, but I would describe it as unschooling them in that one subject. So I'm still confused.  :confused1:

 

It doesn't help that unschooling can both refer to a way of educating and to a way of life.  It's why radical unschoolers coined the term radical unschooling in the first place - to distinguish themselves and their practice of whole-life unschooling from people who just unschool "school" or who unschool the unstructured parts of the day but not school or life in general. 

 

Think of it this way, maybe:  I say I teach tolerance in history, because how else do I describe emphasizing the contributions of minorities and teaching from several different viewpoints?...I wouldn't call myself an tolerant homeschooler, but I would describe it as teaching them tolerance in that one subject.

 

Someone might say, if you believe tolerance is important, why aren't you teaching it in *all* your subjects, why aren't you living it out in your whole life?  Is it possible to genuinely teach tolerance in history while otherwise living an intolerant life?  Does a person who is only teaching tolerance in history while otherwise living an intolerant life - is their understanding of what it means to "teach tolerance" have *anything* in common with people who teach tolerance in everything and live tolerance in everything?  So someone who lives tolerance in their whole life might quite naturally think that the "teach tolerance in history but otherwise live intolerantly" person fundamentally doesn't understand what tolerance *means*.

 

Living ethically is an all-the-time thing.  And radical unschoolers see unschooling as part of living ethically - that the same principles that led them to unschool also impact how they live *all* their life.  And so people who see unschooling as basically one method of many for cultivating knowledge, instead of the practice of a certain kind of ethical living applied to education - that's a totally different understanding of what unschooling is.  It's borrowing practices developed to support one philosophy, separating them from the beliefs that prompted them and the results those practices were trying to cultivate, and dropping them into a different set of beliefs that are using these practices to attempt to cultivate a different set of results.  It's like Christians borrowing from Eastern meditation techniques to enhance their prayer life - you can argue whether or not eastern meditation is compatible with Christian prayer and argue about whether it's even possible (or desirable) to completely divorce the meditation techniques from their original context and plop them down in an entirely new context - but whatever those Christianized meditation practices end up looking like, they mean something very different from what they meant in the original Eastern religious practice, no matter what the surface similarity.

 

Clear as mud? ;)

[MinivanMom]

If they live in a state where they have to keep track of their hours/work and maybe test... How do they do that?  

 

In my area, unschoolers either do not do the required testing as an act of civil disobedience or they do the testing but do not ever open or look at the results. Many seem to think this is an exceptionally clever solution. I find the radical homeschoolers are the ones more likely to openly admit that they are not doing the annual testing at all. This is pretty easy to get away with, because our state only requests to see test results if there is a complaint against a homeschool family.

[MistyMountain]

In also a little confused at insisting you cannot be unschooling if you use the philosophy in everything but math. Why could not someone like the educational philosophy and mostly follow it but for one subject if the method does not work for them in that subject. They still mostly follow the educational philosophy. If someone read about classical homeschooling, and followed it for all but one area they could still claim they are classical. Some people may base their lifestyle around it but others may just like the educational philosophy and would benefit from a local group on the educational philosophy even if everything does not fit. All people tend to find what works for them. I do get defining what it is and what it is not and it was not too bad of a statement but there does not need to be a strict line in the sand where people can define what method they are using.

[poppy]

In our experiences with unschoolers (years in a social group & co-op type setting) over the last ten years, about 60% of the kids have a learning disability.

How on earth would you know this??

 

 

 

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[SunshineMom]

I have a kiddo with a learning disability so parents open up to me. I am also a former social worker with a degree in Sociology. I wasn't citing a formal study but rather sharing our experience.

[poppy]

I have a kiddo with a learning disability so parents open up to me. I am also a former social worker with a degree in Sociology. I wasn't citing a formal study but rather sharing our experience.

Do you mean like dyslexia ?

Asking because my daughter is dyslexic .

 

 

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[SunshineMom]

Yes, as well as others. Several other families had kids on the autistic spectrum. We found the unschooling crowd to be friendly with kids who were engaged but with parents who weren't caught up in meeting school expectations.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Jewels

[Crimson Wife]

   I'm not sure what they mean by "unschooling for everything but math is not possible." I don't know nearly as much as I'd like to about unschooling. 

 

There are a lot of "relaxed" HSers who make their kids do an actual math program like Miquon, Singapore, Saxon, etc. for that subject but do child-directed learning for the rest. This group is saying that's not "unschooling" and I would tend to agree with them since they're actually requiring their kids to learn math systematically rather than leaving it up to the child's whims.

 

[6packofun]

Unschoolers behave like..... I don't know.  Somewhere between an oppressed minority and a defiant clique (in the punks - goths tradition).

 

 

 

This is a good, completely accurate description of the unschoolers we know and have come across.

 

I notice that many, maybe even most, of these families have children with issues.  Behavioral and social issues.  They tend to not really think discipline is a thing, either, or at least they work around the child's behavior (i.e ignore, laugh it off) and expect everyone else to as well.

 

I like the idea of gentle unschooling, but it seems to turn into rabid unschooling so much of the time, at least in my limited experience!  I KNOW this is not necessarily the norm and not an indictment of the educational method, if one wants to call it that, at ALL.

[poppy]

The philosophical basis for this is that children resist learning when it is forced/required but in the absence of required learning they will become self-motivated learners. If that's your philosophy then you can't unschool some subjects but not others, because having requirements for those subjects spoils it; you won't have the abscence of all requirements that leads to self-motivated learning.

 

From that perspective saying that you unschool except for math and grammar is like saying that you're a vegetarian except for venison and pork.

I think I'm slowly getting it. Unschoolers want to be thought of as separate because they think regular homeschoolers (like public schoolers) are behaving in a way that is detrimental to their children.

[marbel]

I think I'm slowly getting it. Unschoolers want to be thought of as separate because they think regular homeschoolers (like public schoolers) are behaving in a way that is detrimental to their children.

 

Not necessarily, in my experience.   I've never known anyone who thought "regular" homeschooling was detrimental.  More like, not optimal, not the best way - in their opinion, just as some classical educators (or anyone using any method) believe their way is the best way.  Most (again, in my experience) view it as another way to educate their kids, like classical or Charlotte Mason. 

 

I suppose there probably are people who think anything other than their way is detrimental, but I doubt it is just unschoolers.

 

 

 

[forty-two]

From that perspective saying that you unschool except for math and grammar is like saying that you're a vegetarian except for venison and pork.

 

And there's also the difference between someone who's a vegetarian for health reasons and someone who's vegetarian for ethical reasons.  If you're a vegetarian for health reasons, then if a strict vegetarian diet isn't leading to the best health results for you, there's every reason to modify it to include some meat if that results in better health.  But if you are a vegetarian for ethical reasons, then whatever problems you might have, eating meat is just not an option - because eating meat is *wrong*.  Unschooling for educational reasons versus unschooling for ethical reasons - it's a similar thing.  Unschooling *so long* as it's the best way (and stopping when it isn't the best way) is just a different kind of commitment than unschooling *because* it's the best way. 

 

And as helpful as "unschool as long as it's working" people find the "unschooling or bust" people, it doesn't always work out well in reverse - it would be very frustrating to go to your unschooling support group with your problem and hear a bunch of "unschool as long as it is working" people advise you that it is time to give up instead of helping you find a way to make it work, kwim?

[forty-two]

I think I'm slowly getting it. Unschoolers want to be thought of as separate because they think regular homeschoolers (like public schoolers) are behaving in a way that is detrimental to their children.

I think they want to be thought of as separate because they believe that:

a) there *is* a difference, and

b) that difference *matters* and so is worth maintaining.

 

And, yeah, that implies c) that the alternatives are in some way detrimental and sub-optimal, although this could be judged on a spectrum, noting areas of agreement as well as areas of disagreement, instead of making a blanket judgment that everyone-not-us-is-100%-bad.  And how you treat people who you somewhat agree with and somewhat disagree with - where the agreement matters but so does the disagreement - that's a related-but-separate issue.

 

 

I'm not an unschooler, but I have experience with trying to maintain the tension between holding to distinctives-that-matter - and the uphill battle in trying to convince others that they *do* matter - while also trying not to get all insular and cliquish and everyone-who-doesn't-100%-agree-with-us-is-100%-wrong and so has nothing but badness to offer - without then forgetting why the distinctives *do* matter and *are* worth preserving over against similar-ish-but-also-different neighboring groups.  A bunch of people who agree with you that your distinctives are good but disagree with you that your distinctives are in fact *better* than other similar-ish groups' different distinctives, or who mostly hold to your distinctives except when they don't - they really mess with your group's ability to hold those distinctives. 

 

And, more significantly, a critical mass of conditional instead of unconditional commitment changes *everyone's* ability to understand and live those distinctives, even people who are all-in.  IME, the people who yell loudest about how we are all right and they are all wrong are those who have only a very surface understanding of why this matters, and they substitute volume and passion for deep understanding.  But people who argue that they agree with us on the topic but don't agree that it matters - they don't have more than a surface understanding either, only they don't think there's any other understanding to be had.  And too many people working off just a surface understanding limits the group to only a surface understanding - everyone comes to think that's all there is, loses the knowledge there is more and loses the ability to deepen their understanding - and the only difference is how much you think that surface understanding matters.  And then you have lots of yelling with no change :(.

[Guest]

Around here I don't know many unschoolers, but I do feel like a bit of an outlier in some respects because we only do one day of the week at co-op and maybe one field trip per month in addition to that.

 

There are people I know do one or two co-ops, plus are organizing 2-3 field trips per month, or additional group classes at various places.

 

I know that we are heavy on the academic side of things in our house compared to some, but I just can't figure out how (outside of unschooling) one could actually get school done if they are out of the house 3 days a week. Plus it makes me exhausted just thinking about it.

Yes, we are eclectic but I always feel academics heavy compared to a lot of local families. We do best with more school and less extras in terms of consistency, mama stress level, etc. I hope people don't think I'm judging them doing something different than me!

[Bluegoat]

IME the unschoolers here fall into two groups.

 

The ones that consider unschooling a matter of respecting a child's basic rights, and those who are really doing something fairly similar to wat a lot of other homeschoolers do.

 

The former group tend to become a rather distince clique, and the second don't.  And from the other side, aother parents often see te first sort of group as in some sense neglecting or doing a disservice to their kids, even if they are well-meaning.

[Ellie]

 

I must not get it. I say I unschool music, because how else do I describe leaving out instruments, discovering new songs and bands together, but I don't teach them music? They have picked up the guitar and piano on their own and self-taught. They type out lyrics to their favorite songs and my oldest has filled a notebook with all of the songs he's written. I "facilitated their current interest" and plan to "cultivate new ones" by getting an electronic drum set for Christmas to bang their hearts out as much as they want. Yet, I haven't done a thing to teach them. My oldest  asked for a program that can teach him how to read music and music theory so he can read the Depeche Mode book dh had as a teen. I wouldn't call myself an unschooler, but I would describe it as unschooling them in that one subject. So I'm still confused.  :confused1:

 

You don't have to describe it at all. You can just say y'all learn about music.

 

And I love the way y'all learn music. :-)

[Ellie]

 

I notice that many, maybe even most, of these families have children with issues.  Behavioral and social issues.  They tend to not really think discipline is a thing, either, or at least they work around the child's behavior (i.e ignore, laugh it off) and expect everyone else to as well.

 

I like the idea of gentle unschooling, but it seems to turn into rabid unschooling so much of the time, at least in my limited experience!  I KNOW this is not necessarily the norm and not an indictment of the educational method, if one wants to call it that, at ALL.

 

That hasn't been true in my experience in my experience, at all.

 

I don't feel the need to modify the term "unschooler." Unschooling will look different in every family, because of the uniqueness of every family. I don't know how you'd even quantify the point at which "gentle" unschooling might become "rabid" unschooling. :confused1:

[laundrycrisis]

Two reasons.  First, some unschoolers believe they are more "highly evolved" than structured homeschoolers.  They are very invested in the idea that imposing any structure or ever pulling rank on your child (aka parenting) will "kill their love of learning".  They are defensive of these ideas, and so they find it most comfortable to stay in an echo chamber surrounded by others who think the same way.  The second reason is that many of them have kids who are out of control and run the show, since their parents don't believe in ever pulling rank.  The only people who can tolerate being around their children are those who are understanding of this approach to parenting, so pretty much only other radical unschoolers. 

[AimeeM]

I think any homeschooler does their child(ren) a disservice if they adhere to any one philosophy stringently.  The whole point of homeschooling is for your child(ren) to be educated in a way that works for them.  For some that's unschooling while for others it's more of a strict schedule.  

 

When my firstborn was ready to start learning on a more official level I was really disappointed that worksheets and a schedule worked better for him than learning by playing.  I didn't know anything about unschooling, so I don't believe that was my goal.  But, I though homeschooling was supposed to be... well, not worksheets and a schedule like a brick and mortar school.

Could you clarify the bolded?

 

Reading it one might assume that you do not consider those who use a program like Seton or BJU to be "homeschoolers"... because, well, they preference more of a school-at-home approach. 

[laundrycrisis]

I don't know the answer to your question, but we've been dealing with it locally as well. Many of the unschoolers are so defensive and cliquey. We have had flareups over the years in our very secular, inclusive homeschool group where unschoolers have really made everyone else feel unwelcome, and the group is now dying due to some recent events where younger, academically-oriented homeschoolers were attacked and shunned. I just don't understand how moms of unschooling teenagers can feel so threatened by moms of little ones choosing a path that's a bit more directed, especially since the older, unschooling moms have always run the group (all board positions) and set the tone for activities. It's just really unfortunate, because our group has been the only inclusive, secular group in the area; all the other groups are either radical unschoolers or religious groups that require a statement-of-faith.

 

I feel like the unschoolers I know locally want to define and control the homeschooling movement, but it's changing and evolving before their eyes. So they come down hard on all the younger moms who are taking a slightly different path. Unschooling is real homeschooling. Everyone else is "wrong".

 

The part I bolded is the taste of unschooling I've had.  I've been on the receiving end too many times - unsolicited, unwelcome lectures about how I should relax, trust my children, and so on.  I have never told anyone else how they should homeschool their kids, but they are happy to tell me how.  My experience with unschoolers is that they feel a need to share the wisdom of their chosen approach with those who are not yet enlightened.  Many times I've had people assume I'm brand new to homeschooling, simply because I keep it structured.  They assume I am a beginner who hasn't learned how to go with the flow yet.   It's always amusing when I tell them I've been doing this from the start, but then they are appalled that after all this time I haven't relaxed.  Unschoolers are the reason I stopped discussing homeschooling with any other homeschoolers, ever.  I'm really skilled at diverting the conversation, because I don't want to go through the same old again.