S/O Kids not standing for anthem, getting death threats

[ktgrok]

People are threatening to lynch little kids who also took a knee during the anthem. CHILDREN! And calling them racial slurs. Ugh. And people wonder why they are protesting. This is why. Makes me sick. You can disagree with the protestors and their point of view. That is what discourse and intelligent conversation are for. But threatening to kill children? I can't even handle this. 

 

http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.2788828

[umsami]

Beyond wrong.  Something tells me this is more about racism than anything else.  Remember, 17 year old Trayvon Martin was a thug buying Skittles and iced tea.... while poor 32 year old Ryan Lochte is just a kid.  Twelve year old Tamir Rice was shot within seconds.  We wouldn't want to actually harm Stanford rapist Brock Turner's future over "20 minutes of action", now would we? But 11/12 year old black kids? A threat. 

[KarenC]

So sad.  Every time I think we are making progress toward racial harmony, something like  this happens.  It is discouraging.

[MEmama]

Bizarre. I stopped saying the anthem in the third grade. No one cared or remarked it on then.

 

There are an awful lot of crazy scary things going on right now, not just in this country. It's a good time to be a news diet and concentrate on the goodness around us.

[ktgrok]

Beyond wrong.  Something tells me this is more about racism than anything else.  Remember, 17 year old Trayvon Martin was a thug buying Skittles and iced tea.... while poor 32 year old Ryan Lochte is just a kid.  Twelve year old Tamir Rice was shot within seconds.  We wouldn't want to actually harm Stanford rapist Brock Turner's future over "20 minutes of action", now would we? But 11/12 year old black kids? A threat. 

 

It is 100 percent about racism. Slurs that are being used are racist. References to lynchings are racist. Racism is alive and well. And it breaks my heart.

[SKL]

The down side of having a very literate, wired population (coupled with free speech) is that the stupidest, nastiest people have just as much public voice as intelligent people.  And they apparently have plenty of leisure time to spout off their nonsense.

 

We as intelligent people need to remember that the people who would do this are not the people who speak for America or Humanity.

 

Death threats, slurs, etc. are nothing new and they won't ever end in our lifetimes.  I choose to consider the source of that kind of evil.

 

Hopefully they can trace the death threats and prosecute the guilty.

[DawnM]

So sad.  Every time I think we are making progress toward racial harmony, something like  this happens.  It is discouraging.

If we are moving in any way towards racial harmony, I am not seeing it.

 

I get SO frustrated sometimes. I work in a school with no white children. There were white children during integration. The minute the white kids walked off the bus, there was all of a sudden money for a new gym, a pool, a new football field, and a new baseball field.

 

The integrated bussing is gone, but at least this school with 97% AA students now have some of the "luxuries" the white kids get at their schools.

 

Dawn

[Guest]

-

Edited September 14, 2016 by texasmom33

[MercyA]

Unbelievable.  :mad:

Edited September 14, 2016 by MercyA

[FaithManor]

I believe that the inflammatory, racist language during this campaign - won't say anything more or specific due to board rules - has made a certain element of extremists in our culture emboldened to a frightening level of seething rhetoric and public expression of it, all of which I find appalling and downright dangerous.

 

I have other theories concerning deeply disturbing trends within evangelicalism, but I think saying more would be very divisive on this board.

[happi duck]

:(

[KarenC]

I believe that the inflammatory, racist language during this campaign - won't say anything more or specific due to board rules - has made a certain element of extremists in our culture emboldened to a frightening level of seething rhetoric and public expression of it, all of which I find appalling and downright dangerous.

 

I have other theories concerning deeply disturbing trends within evangelicalism, but I think saying more would be very divisive on this board.

I didn't want to get political, but I completely agree with you.  It's very disturbing.

[KarenC]

If we are moving in any way towards racial harmony, I am not seeing it.

 

I get SO frustrated sometimes. I work in a school with no white children. There were white children during integration. The minute the white kids walked off the bus, there was all of a sudden money for a new gym, a pool, a new football field, and a new baseball field.

 

The integrated bussing is gone, but at least this school with 97% AA students now have some of the "luxuries" the white kids get at their schools.

 

Dawn

I'm seeing more racial harmony in my own life.  I think the younger generations are generally more tolerant and inclusive than older ones, so I do have hope.

[Amira]

I agree that things are getting better, especially with younger generations. But it can seem more awful while it's getting better.

 

Sort of like a nasty bathroom. It's not till you get in there and start deep cleaning that you find out how bad it really was, but the deep cleaning makes all the difference even though it can take awhile and might feel like it gets worse before it gets better because of the junk you turn up.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Amira

[Dmmetler]

Part of it, too, is the publicity factor. When my 5th grade students, every year, studied the national anthem (as part of a focus on US traditional and patriotic music and connected with the US history they were also studying) some of them would choose to take the option of sitting quietly instead of standing. No one made a big deal of it. They were learning, processing, and reacting.

 

So are these kids. But instead of being given the space to do so, it's being publicized. And these kids aren't getting the time to learn, process, and react. They're 11-12 years old. 6th graders, probably. They're in early adolescence. They have a right to be upset by the world they're in, and they have little power. Not standing for the national anthem or refusing to say the pledge of allegiance is about the only way they CAN take a stand.

[TravelingChris]

I think that racial harmony has been set back many years and not just because of the National Anthem protests.  Civility in many ways has fallen.  Rudeness is taking over.

 

I don't like the National Anthem protests even though I would rather have America the Beautiful as our national anthem.  I stand for anthems of other countries if I am in the audience as a sign of respect.  I don't know anything about almost any other national anthems and who wrote them or composed their music. 

[Anne in CA]

I do feel like we went backward fast. I remember trying to tell my dh about Trevon Martin and his first response was, "I read about that, the kid was a druggie." Um, nope, he was a fairly ordinary kid who got caught smoking dope. White people should be the first people to get offended and angry when a cop shoots a black kid holding a Nerf gun, but they tend to make excuses first. I want very much to respect police officers, but respect is EARNED. The benefit of the doubt should be to the victim not the police officer for the good of society.

 

Not standing for the National Anthem is not an option for me. No matter how imperfect America is I am an American and my ancestors made a lot of sacrifices to live here. I am honoring them by voting and being a responsible citizen. I hope that the people who are old enough to vote who are not standing would make sure to vote for candidates that will clean up this mess. That is actually doing something.

 

The people who are threatening ANYONE over this are the problem with this country. They should be outed for who they really are and punished.

[DawnM]

I'm seeing more racial harmony in my own life.  I think the younger generations are generally more tolerant and inclusive than older ones, so I do have hope.

I am hoping that is true! I was definitely thinking of adults when I wrote that.

[zoobie]

'Murica. Yelling racist, disrespectful stuff at the President (I mean, he is black so NBD) out of one side of your patriotic mouth and threatening to lynch children for disrespecting an inanimate object out of the other. Yee haw.

[ktgrok]

I think that is why trying to be race blind backfires. You may not be teaching them about race, but society will. Batter you DO teach them, to prepare them and counteract that. 

[goldberry]

The irony is incredible.  People expressing their "patriotism" by acting in total opposition to the principles of the country they claim to support.

[Bluegoat]

...

 

I don't think this necessarily has to do with anyone talking to them.

 

Kids are really observant, and while on the one hand they can be beautifully open in their outlook, they also don't have any barriers about making connections or guesses that adults are uncomfortable with.  Sometimes they can be wrong, but in some cases their obsevations are uncomfortable because they hit on something that is a pretty real observation.  If you keep seeing workplaces that are largely of only one race, it's perfectly logical to think there is some reason for that - one contradictory instance begins to look like it might be an exception.  And really - isn't there a reason?  There likely is, be it some kind of racism issue or historical happenstance or demographic one, just maybe not a reason a child has the background knowledge to think of.

 

A lot of the observations my kids make that are hard to answer or talk about are one that, if they weren't about race, would very much be about class, because there is a lot of overlap going on between race and class where we live, and when that happens, race can often make visible what would in other instances be less visible class issues.  I sometimes think that we North Americans have a harder time explaining class issues to young people than we do race issues.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Bluegoat]

As far as the OP - what strikes me with this stuff is that people seem to have lost a sense of boundaries when having disagreements about things, especially in politics.  How does an adult think that kind of threat is appropriate, even with seriously egregious things a child might do?  It may seem like a weird compariosn but it almost seems to me like someone peeing in public.

[ktgrok]

Yes, I'm learning that in a hurry.   :(

 

But at what point does society become race blind?  Is that never an end state?

 

 

Well, I'd worry about that once we aren't a racist society. That won't be in my lifetime. 

SaveSave

[maize]

Yes, I'm learning that in a hurry. :(

 

But at what point does society become race blind? Is that never an end state?

I am not sure it is possible.

 

I believe the human brain is hardwired to develop a trusted in-group--those we perceive as being like us--and a distrusted outgroup. Skin color is such an easy and obvious way to differentiate groups that I don't think true color blindness is possible.

 

The book Nurture Shock talks about this. Many parents think they can raise color blind kids by behaving as if skin color isn't a thing, but kids turn it into a thing all on their own. Explicit teaching works better to counteract what may in fact be a pretty hard wired human tendency.

[SKL]

edited at request of poster

 

Who knows where kids get some of their ideas?  People always want to say it's the parents, they are obviously hearing this stuff at home, etc.  I always push back on that.  The parents may be very decent and educated and still have kids who come up with this stuff.  And it's hard to know the right balance between forcing the issue (overtly teaching race-positive language and concepts) vs. trying not to make it an issue (since it shouldn't be).

 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by SKL

[StaceyinLA]

I know how I feel about the kneeling thing, and it does make my blood boil no matter WHO does it, so I won't even get on that soapbox. (I should add though that threatening to harm children isn't cool for ANY reason).

 

As far as racism, I know when everything went down in Louisiana a couple months ago, it seemed so horrible and devisive. The media really swooped in and made it worse.

 

However, when the flooding happened, and since, we have seen people of all races working together with ZERO issues. Yeah the flooding was apparently a non-issue to those who want to stir up trouble, so the media didn't come in and start crap, and we have had plenty of unity here during this time of crisis.

[Bluegoat]

I am not sure it is possible.

 

I believe the human brain is hardwired to develop a trusted in-group--those we perceive as being like us--and a distrusted outgroup. Skin color is such an easy and obvious way to differentiate groups that I don't think true color blindness is possible.

 

The book Nurture Shock talks about this. Many parents think they can raise color blind kids by behaving as if skin color isn't a thing, but kids turn it into a thing all on their own. Explicit teaching works better to counteract what may in fact be a pretty hard wired human tendency.

 

I read a rather interesting article on this a while ago by a neurologist, whose name I can't remember at all.

 

He thought that while people are essentially made to notice differences like this, it would be possible to set up a society where one, like skin colour, was pushed into being a background difference - like having green eyes, say - something we attach no significance to when we notice it, if we even do.

 

The difficulty he thought was that it was probably impossible to do it while also noticing skin colour differences and attaching significance to them in other ways - say either to help those who had been disadvantaged, or for reasons relating to culture.  The problem being that the brain can either screen it out because it doesn't read skin colour as significant, or it can notice it as significant, but not both.  If it's the latter that society chooses, it always has the possibility of attaching to all kinds of viewpoints, not just whatever ones we want it to now.

[Guest]

Yes, I'm learning that in a hurry.   :(

 

But at what point does society become race blind?  Is that never an end state?

 

The race chapter of the book Nurtureshock alone is worth the price of the book!

[creekland]

People are threatening to lynch little kids who also took a knee during the anthem. CHILDREN! And calling them racial slurs. Ugh. And people wonder why they are protesting. This is why. Makes me sick. You can disagree with the protestors and their point of view. That is what discourse and intelligent conversation are for. But threatening to kill children? I can't even handle this. 

 

http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.2788828

 

This has actually been a great IRL example of how Hitler came to power and convinced ordinary people to follow him and carry out his atrocities.

 

It's sad that we have an IRL example, but my preference is always to take bad situations and teach from them with hopes that the younger generation will turn out differently.

 

I've seen quite a bit of hope in my section of the world with the younger generation.  My in-laws have noticed it too. ("Look at that" - upon seeing two boys of different race walking together - "see what I told you about the neighborhood going downhill?")  Where they are discouraged (being the racists they are), I have hope.

[FaithManor]

Creekland, I have seen a lot of teens and young twenties acting a way that is so open, sccepting, loving...it gives me hope for them when their voting block becomes dominate in the culture and in politics.

 

 

Gah...my generation and my parents', most definitely my parents...I weep. In the here and now, not so optimistic.

 

Come on future leaders of America! Rah, rah, rah. (I need a cheerleading emoticon, preferably in MSU, U of MI, or WMU colors! :D )

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

I've seen quite a bit of hope in my section of the world with the younger generation.  My in-laws have noticed it too. ("Look at that" - upon seeing two boys of different race walking together - "see what I told you about the neighborhood going downhill?")  Where they are discouraged (being the racists they are), I have hope.

 

 

Creekland, I have seen a lot of teens and young twenties acting a way that is so open, sccepting, loving...it gives me hope for them when their voting block becomes dominate in the culture and in politics.

 

 

 

 

I too am hopeful when I see the younger generation around me. We hear a lot of talk about selfish, entitled millennials but I see a generation of people who are inclusive, accepting, and non-judgmental and I feel good about a future that I probably won't even live to see. A future that belongs my sons and grandsons and any future possible grandchildren. 

[Guest]

I too am hopeful when I see the younger generation around me. We hear a lot of talk about selfish, entitled millennials but I see a generation of people who are inclusive, accepting, and non-judgmental and I feel good about a future that I probably won't even live to see. A future that belongs my sons and grandsons and any future possible grandchildren.

The inclusiveness and acceptance is great - I do see that in my own peers as well as a genuine desire to erase what inequalities can be addressed.

 

The inability to logic ones' way out of a paper bag, nearly complete lack of scale (i.e.: what is and isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things), and over sharing? Those are still issues.

 

But I do see a lot of encouraging trends in my generation (millennials) that I hope can be paired with wisdom for the best outcome. Most of the vile comments and craziness I see spouted is from the middle aged and older crowd, more than their kids. That's progress!

 

I'm not really a fan of the whole protest knee thing, wearing non-standard clothing on a team, etc, but nothing about this on a national scale, let alone anything done by a bunch of kids in protest/I'm so cool and different/I'm being oppressed/etc is worth inciting violence. That would be another response lacking context and scale - nobody's words and nonviolent gestures require a violent response. Ugh. It's so unimportant and minor in the scheme of things, and as long as it is t violating sports contracts or, in the case of the kids, basic conduct for the game, they have every right to do it and the worst opposition it should elicit is an eye roll.

 

ETA - all the typos. I has them :(

Edited September 15, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[LucyStoner]

I really hate that term. People who do this might be loud, but they certainly are NOT the norm in the US. They are NOT representative of the US as a whole.

They are hardly rare either. I've run into more of them than I care to count plus their quieter, politer but still quite racist in word and deed counterparts.

[LucyStoner]

A white person who pretends to be color blind or thinks that colorblindness is the ultimate goal IS not someone who will help bring about the lessening and end of racism.

 

People who say "I don't see race, I just see people" and similar asinine comments aren't part of the solution, they are part of the problem.

 

Judging someone by the content of their character and not the color of their skin is NOT the same thing as pretending to not see the color of any skin. It's as impossible and absurd as not seeing the color of someone's hair or noticing what their faces look like.

 

http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/06/refusing-to-see-color-still-racist/

[mamiof5]

There's so much wrong going on in our world right now. People disrespecting, threatening others, even children. It's so sad :(

[zoobie]

I really hate that term. People who do this might be loud, but they certainly are NOT the norm in the US. They are NOT representative of the US as a whole.

Nothing's representative of the US as a whole. Racism is hardly unusual here. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/10/27/poll-black-prejudice-america/1662067/ That's from 2012. I would wager the numbers currently are up or people who expressed explicit racism are even more deeply entrenched. We have a major candidate refusing to condemn a KKK leader. KKK!!! This (among other issues) isn't indicative of a nation without a serious race problem.

[bibiche]

I really hate that term. People who do this might be loud, but they certainly are NOT the norm in the US. They are NOT representative of the US as a whole.

Unfortunately, the current political climate indicates that this is not true. This is what seems to be representative of a large part of the US. Certainly more than half of a half a basket. :(

[bibiche]

I'm not really a fan of the whole protest knee thing, wearing non-standard clothing on a team, etc, but nothing about this on a national scale, let alone anything done by a bunch of kids in protest/I'm so cool and different/I'm being oppressed/etc is worth inciting violence. That would be another response lacking context and scale - nobody's words and nonviolent gestures require a violent response. Ugh. It's so unimportant and minor in the scheme of things, and as long as it is t violating sports contracts or, in the case of the kids, basic conduct for the game, they have every right to do it and the worst opposition it should elicit is an eye roll.:(

Frankly, I find the dismissiveness and the "eye roll" attitude nearly as offensive and damaging as a call to violence. People (be they children or adults) aren't protesting because they are trying to be "so cool and different" and that others just roll their eyes and dismiss it as such without exploring the reasons behind the protest is disturbing.

[Guest]

Never mind. Not worth the crazy. Carry on folks.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Happy2BaMom]

....

 

The inability to logic ones' way out of a paper bag, nearly complete lack of scale (i.e.: what is and isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things), and over sharing? Those are still issues.

 

.....

 

Agreed, but those issues are shared across a wide swath of demographics, including age range. I have seen many old(er) people who act with no more logic nor any more sense of scale than most millenials. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Happy2BaMom

[Happy2BaMom]

I don't think things will really change until the Millenials start becoming the bulk of adults - another 20 years, probably. They are so racially diverse (and most are pretty comfortable with that)...."Whites" - for lack of a better term - are still projected to become a minority in this country by ~2045....and the M's are also much more religiously diverse (and most seem pretty comfortable with that). 

 

I think those two trends are what are so threatening to SOME in our country, esp. those who have a lot of ego invested in maintaining cultural homogeneous-ness (homogeniety?) and those people have free rein via the internet. 

 

I remind myself all the time that certain things change only with time....

[LucyStoner]

There's a wide gulf though between "hardly rare" and "the norm." MOST people in the US are simply not like that. MOST people in the US are not sending death threats to these kids and I think that using this to go " 'Murica" is rather insulting to the majority of US citizens.

 

As I said, there will always be stupid people like this with us. However, MOST of America is not like that. MOST of America is not sending death threats to kids. MOST Americans are not violent extremists. I am American...not " 'Muican" and I would venture a guess that the rest of us here on this board who are US citizens would also prefer to be called American and not " 'Murican."

It's not a term used against all Americans. It's a term that captures an attitude that is prevalent though.

 

I'll grant that most people are not extremists. By definition we couldn't be. But I can't agree most people are free of racism. I've seen too much ugliness from too many different otherwise "nice" people to buy that claim. It's also something that exists without a lot of people ever having to face it personally. But people who haven't experienced it personally shouldn't think they are qualified to proclaim it's a very limited or small problem.

[LucyStoner]

I didn't say most people are free of racisim, wasn't talking about racisim. I was talking about people sending death threats to kids. Most people don't do that. In fact, I actually personally believe that MOST people, of ALL races, do hold some racist beliefs. I think it's inherent human nature. But, holding some racist beliefs is VERY VERY different than sending death threats to kids.

Acting on racist beliefs in threatening ways is not uncommon. I don't need to detail all the examples I've run into to assure you that there are more people who will threaten children or harass children or who will condone or ignore such behavior than anyone would like to admit. Are they most? No. They aren't some tiny sliver either. Just a few weeks ago a white man got aggressive towards my 14 year old (black) niece. My childhood was marked by seeing the stark disparities in how people treated my family when they assumed we were all white and how people treated us when they saw one of my brother's skin. It wasn't just words either.

 

You can't talk about death threats against black kids and assume it's a separate issue than racism. It was and is clearly racially fueled.

 

Count your blessings that it's so rare in your reality. It's not rare for everyone though.

Edited September 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

Again...there's a wide gulf between "not rare" and "the norm." It is NOT the NORM for MOST Americans. MOST Americans do not send death threats to kids.

 

I understand that death threats against black kids are not separate from racism. But it's also possible to be racist and NOT make violent threats. And I would even venture a guess that most racist people would never make a violent threat.

 

The thing is...most people who make violent threats are likely to do so even if racisim isn't involved. White people who get aggressive towards a 14 yr old are generally the same people who get aggressive towards the white waitress when their steak is cooked wrong, or scream obscenities into the drive thru when it takes too long. They are the same people who throw a punch at a little league coach when their kid sits the bench, or to engage in all manner of road rage tactics.

 

And again...MOST Americans aren't like that. It happens, of course, but it's not how MOST people act. A lot of people, sure, most? Nope.

We have very different experiences and this is not something we need to agree on or will agree on.

 

I get that it is not most. I made that abundantly clear from my first response.

 

But it is part of the fabric, history and reality of America. And America is open to criticism for this. I say this as a loyal and active American.

 

And no, not all white people who are nasty in the context of racial bias are just crazy anger management cases otherwise at all or even most times. I'm not sure what basis you have for such a claim. Most I have seen are perfectly capable of appearing normal or even nice in a wide range of other settings. I've seen it within church, neighborhood and school groups so not random strangers I can dismiss as merely being head cases. If only.

[LucyStoner]

To me, it's more important to consider the toxic and widespread impacts of racism than to salve the feelings of people offended by the term "Murica" being used in a comedic or sardonic way. It's not something that really matters compared to my niece's safety or the ability of the black students mentioned in the OP article to attend school free from fear and threats.

 

America has a significant problem with racism. America is strong enough to stand up to some criticism over it in various forms. I'd like to think that America is strong enough to end this problem but I think it has been and will continue be slow in coming. And while we dilly dally around being offended when racist America is poked or called out, real people are hurting from racism in real ways. Every second of every day.

 

FWIW, I don't ever use the term Murica but I just don't think it's a big deal. Especially not when compared to the realities people face due to racism.

Edited September 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

The thing for me about the term 'Murica...and it's longer phrase, "because, 'Murica!" is that its really intended to be an insult tied specifically to being an American.  That's why I don't like it. 

 

Well, considering the people saying it are usually Americans, I've never thought of it that way. It's a poke at those who say they love our country while failing to live up to its ideals. Not all Americans. 

[maize]

The thing for me about the term 'Murica...and it's longer phrase, "because, 'Murica!" is that its really intended to be an insult tied specifically to being an American. That's why I don't like it.

I agree with you. It's a derogatory insult aimed at a whole group of people.

 

Those are never helpful.

[ktgrok]

I agree with you. It's a derogatory insult aimed at a whole group of people.

 

Those are never helpful.

 

I think it's more aimed at their reasoning than the people...it's not "Muricans" after all. 

[ktgrok]

I suspect that's because it comes from the phrase "becuase, 'Murica!"

 

Right. Which is poking at a thought process not people.