FDA ruling on antibacterial hand soap

[regentrude]

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm517478.htm

 

 

 

 

[kewb]

Not surprised. I have never been a fan of antibacterial soaps. I do wonder what my germophobe friends will think about this.

[StaceyinLA]

I won't buy anything antibacterial. I believe it just creates more powerful bacteria as they become resistant. I'm a little sad it won't affect the hand sanitizers though - same situation with those, and I see people using it on their kids ALL the time.

[Rachel]

I won't buy anything antibacterial. I believe it just creates more powerful bacteria as they become resistant. I'm a little sad it won't affect the hand sanitizers though - same situation with those, and I see people using it on their kids ALL the time.

It drives me crazy at children's activities when they have the kids slather on sanitizer when a sink is nearby. My one son has extremely dry hands and I had to constantly battle with them about not using sanitizer on him even when his hands were so cracked they were bleeding. Thankfully it was only once a week.

[liber]

Never bought it either. Plain old soap and water here.

[ktgrok]

I'm thrilled, as it always seems like the hand soap scents I want turn out to be the antibacterial ones, and I won't buy those. 

[Bluegoat]

I won't buy anything antibacterial. I believe it just creates more powerful bacteria as they become resistant. I'm a little sad it won't affect the hand sanitizers though - same situation with those, and I see people using it on their kids ALL the time.

 

I think there are situations where hand sanitizers are useful - when other measures may not be available for basic clean up in toilets and such they are nice to have. 

[Just Kate]

It drives me crazy at children's activities when they have the kids slather on sanitizer when a sink is nearby. My one son has extremely dry hands and I had to constantly battle with them about not using sanitizer on him even when his hands were so cracked they were bleeding. Thankfully it was only once a week.

Drives me crazy too! In my dd's 4th grade class at school, one of the kid's "job" title for the week is Geminator. The Germinator passes around the hand sanitizer for all of the kids before snack and lunch each day. When my kids started at that school, I talked to the teachers to see if they could just have the kids go to the bathrooms and wash their hands with soap and water. But because of the time it takes for a whole classroom of kids (especially the little ones) to wash their hands, hand sanitizer is just much more efficient. I hate it though and I know it really isn't good for the kids.

[Seasider]

I know there are valid reasons for using hand sanitizers, but my observation is that they are most often used for convenience. They are just not as effective as good old soap and water. They are also hard on the skin.

 

I stopped using antibacterial soaps quite a while back. I keep a little bottle of hibiclens in the medicine cabinet for the occasional wound or insect bite that needs a good wash, but just the old fashioned make-germs-slip-off soap for everyday use.

[Amira]

Just to be clear, this is not about alcohol-based hand sanitizers. Those are still recommend if soap and water isn't feasible and do not create resistant bacteria.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Amira

[Pam in CT]

Echoing Amira that the alcohol-based sanitizers (which may well have other drawbacks) are not the issue here as they do not create resistant bacteria.

 

 

The NY Times had an article a few days ago about the FDA's decision and the growing problem bacterial resistance which made the point that the widespread use of antibiotics in agribusiness is also of increased concern.

[Just Kate]

Echoing Amira that the alcohol-based sanitizers (which may well have other drawbacks) are not the issue here as they do not create resistant bacteria.

 

 

The NY Times had an article a few days ago about the FDA's decision and the growing problem bacterial resistance which made the point that the widespread use of antibiotics in agribusiness is also of increased concern.

That's great to know! While I realized that the FDA ruling and this thread are about antibacterial hand soap, I always assumed that hand sanitizer fell into the same category. Glad to know it doesn't! Edited September 5, 2016 by Just Kate

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

We quit buying antibacterial soap a while ago because the scientific studies already demonstrated the flaws. We just use regular hand soap.

 

 

We do keep hand sanitizer handy, as needed.

[maize]

Echoing others that alcohol based hand sanitizers are not similar to antibacterial soaps and do not share the same problems.

 

We've known scientifically that antibacterial handsoaps were a problem for a long time.

[Mabelen]

Drives me crazy too! In my dd's 4th grade class at school, one of the kid's "job" title for the week is Geminator. The Germinator passes around the hand sanitizer for all of the kids before snack and lunch each day. When my kids started at that school, I talked to the teachers to see if they could just have the kids go to the bathrooms and wash their hands with soap and water. But because of the time it takes for a whole classroom of kids (especially the little ones) to wash their hands, hand sanitizer is just much more efficient. I hate it though and I know it really isn't good for the kids.

We use sanitizer in our classroom too for those very reasons. It's alcohol based though. We only squirt a tiny drop and make sure it's out of the kids' reach at other times. In order for washing hands with soap and water to be feasible we would either need more time for lunch, a lot more sinks, or both.

[OneStepAtATime]

Just to be clear, this is not about alcohol-based hand sanitizers. Those are still recommend if soap and water isn't feasible and do not create resistant bacteria.

Yes. This is NOT about alcohol based hand sanitizers, which do not affect bacterial resistance AND have been scientifically proven to reduce the spread of infection in hospitals by a significant amount.

[happypamama]

I don't buy antibacterial anything.  Regular soap and water.  (Neosporin for cuts that might need it.)  I'm glad for this ruling because it means that we won't encounter antibacterial soap out and about.

 

(I don't use alcohol based hand sanitizer either.  For times when soap and water aren't available, like after leaving karate class or the library, if they don't wash before we leave, I have a homemade hand sanitizer made from aloe and Plant Therapy's KidSafe germ fighter blend.)

[Guest]

Can someone tell me what to say when I try to explain to someone I know that alcohol based sanitizer =\= antibacterial soap?

 

He is so adamantly against have sanitizer. Which I get to a certain degree, but geez man, when my kids come it if the petting zoo, they are GOING to sanitizer their hands!!

[ktgrok]

I believe it is about the difference between antibacterial and antiseptic. Different mechanisms of action. 

Can someone tell me what to say when I try to explain to someone I know that alcohol based sanitizer =\= antibacterial soap?

He is so adamantly against have sanitizer. Which I get to a certain degree, but geez man, when my kids come it if the petting zoo, they are GOING to sanitizer their hands!!

 

[ktgrok]

This won't effect hibiclense right, just regular soaps? Cause I have to use hibiclense for my suspected skin condition or I get horrible painful cyst like lumps on my labia. If I need to start hoarding the stuff I will. 

 

Although...I imagine it would still be available to medical professionals. i could always buy it at the vet's office. 

[TechWife]

Yes. This is NOT about alcohol based hand sanitizers, which do not affect bacterial resistance AND have been scientifically proven to reduce the spread of infection in hospitals by a significant amount.

Yes, this. We use an alcohol based sanitizer every time we enter a patient room and every time we leave one.

[Spryte]

I'm happy about this. I think they have been disastrous. We don't use antibacterial soap, and sometimes I have trouble finding hand soap without it. Selfishly - this means we'll have more options!

[LucyStoner]

Many hand sanitizers don't contain the antibacterial components they are yanking. Alcohol is a topical antiseptic not an antibiotic and the use of alcohol based antiseptics is effective in the reduction of infections and does not cause antibiotic resistance.

 

We haven't bought an antibacterial soap in well over a decade and before that only by accident, not because we were looking for it. That said, working in a hospital my husband is big on handwashing or, when handwashing is not feasible, using an alcohol based hand sanitizer. It's the the alcohol free hand sanitizers that contain the potentially harmful antibiotics.

Edited September 5, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

I know there are valid reasons for using hand sanitizers, but my observation is that they are most often used for convenience. They are just not as effective as good old soap and water. They are also hard on the skin.

 

I stopped using antibacterial soaps quite a while back. I keep a little bottle of hibiclens in the medicine cabinet for the occasional wound or insect bite that needs a good wash, but just the old fashioned make-germs-slip-off soap for everyday use.

Yes, I hope it doesn't make hibiclens any harder to obtain, because we keep it for wound cleaning, along with betadine, and I have to have it on hand for my homebirths. But as for just the over the counter hand soaps I say good riddance! We just plain soap and water and that's more than sufficient. The hand sanitizer is only for when we are out in the woods or at events and dealing with human or animal waste without having a sink available.

[Guest]

Can someone tell me what to say when I try to explain to someone I know that alcohol based sanitizer =\= antibacterial soap?

 

He is so adamantly against have sanitizer. Which I get to a certain degree, but geez man, when my kids come it if the petting zoo, they are GOING to sanitizer their hands!!

Alcohol based hand sanitizers are in a different class and have their uses. Antibacterial hand and body soaps do more harm than good. Antiseptic wound washes like hibiclens also have their uses.

 

The daily antibacterial soap thing is the only one that needed addressing, in my opinion.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I hate that stuff and never buy it.  It literally makes the skin on my hands peal off after a couple of uses. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

Ok, so what I see is chlorhexinol (spelling?) is being banned, and hibiclense is cholorhexidine, so should be safe. 

[Guest]

Alcohol based hand sanitizers are in a different class and have their uses. Antibacterial hand and body soaps do more harm than good. Antiseptic wound washes like hibiclens also have their uses.

 

The daily antibacterial soap thing is the only one that needed addressing, in my opinion.

Yeahbut why is one indiscriminate killing of hand germies a-ok and the other is not? Ykwim? Edited September 5, 2016 by OKBud

[ktgrok]

Yeahbut why is one indiscriminate killing of hand germies a-ok and the other is not? Ykwim?

Soap kills germs too, but no one is advocating we stop washing hands. Alcohol doesn't have any side effects other than drying skin, and it kills in a different manner so less of a chance of resistant bacteria. 

[Guest]

Yeahbut why is one indiscriminate killing of hand germies a-ok and the other is not? Ykwim?

Antibacterials/antimicrobials function differently than antiseptics like alcohol. Also, certain settings make the risk make more sense, like a hospital or homebirth. Or, in our area, where when we use hand sanitizer we have encountered things like giardia or whatever lovelies are swimming in moose or weasel feces, as opposed to the run of the mill household bacteria and viruses that people with healthy immune systems are not particularly susceptible to.

 

I think hand sanitizer gets way overused when just sending a school kid to actually wash their hands works as well or better. But certain settings make other products sensible in a way household antibacterial soap pretty much never is. If sterility is required there are products, from rubbing alcohol to hospital grade sanitizing creams, that can be purchased. But the OTC soaps arguably cause more harm than good and I'm not surprised this investigation bore that out for a few of the most common ingredients.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Greta]

Yeahbut why is one indiscriminate killing of hand germies a-ok and the other is not? Ykwim?

 

 

This is my understanding, but I hope someone else will jump in if this is in error or incomplete.

 

Soap doesn't so much kill germs, as render them unable to stick to your skin.  So when you rinse the soapy water down the drain, the bacteria is going with it.

 

Alcohol kills bacteria by basically chemically tearing up the cell membrane, causing the cell to burst.  It does this pretty indiscriminately with most all cells, because it's a basic chemistry thing.  It does it with your cells too, which is why it burns like heck if you put it on an open wound (without those many, many laters of keratin-containing and thus "shielding" skin cells there to protect the more vulnerable cells beneath.)  

 

But antibiotics are much more targeted: they bond with specific receptors on the cell membrane, then enter the cell and disrupt some aspect of its ability to function and/or reproduce.  This is why antibiotics are so useful:  you can find ones that will do this to bacteria cells but NOT to human cells.  But it's also why they have to be used sparingly.  Bacteria cells that happen to not have those receptors, for example, can survive and even flourish (because you've just killed off their competition), thus creating a whole population of bacteria that are immune to that antibiotic.

 

Something like that?   :)

 

ETA:  I didn't see that your post had already been answered (twice!) when I posted mine.  Also, those answers are pretty different from where I was going with my long rambling explanation, so I'm guessing I misunderstood what you were asking.  Sorry for the sidetrack, and now back to regularly scheduled programming....

Edited September 5, 2016 by Greta

[G5052]

Twelve years ago we were in a tough situation with an immune-compromised family member who required home health. It wasn't as well-known then, but a case of MRSA was probably involved.

 

And the nurse back then told us then to throw away all the antibacterial soap in the house and just use a something basic with a neutral scent and no lotion. She also taught me how to properly wash my hands and had us put a commercial paper towel dispenser in the main bathroom. This was important because I was preparing and hanging bags of antibiotics and changing dressings.

 

So IMHO this was a long time coming. Certain health care professionals have had doubts about this for a long time.

[SparklyUnicorn]

So IMHO this was a long time coming. Certain health care professionals have had doubts about this for a long time.

 

Yeah my first thought was why did this take so long? 

[Rachel]

 

I wasn't trying to derail the thread with my sanitizer comment, I understand the difference. My MIL has a Ph.D. in immunology and has been firmly against antibacterial soap for years. I personally find it too drying as well.

 

 

Drives me crazy too! In my dd's 4th grade class at school, one of the kid's "job" title for the week is Geminator. The Germinator passes around the hand sanitizer for all of the kids before snack and lunch each day. When my kids started at that school, I talked to the teachers to see if they could just have the kids go to the bathrooms and wash their hands with soap and water. But because of the time it takes for a whole classroom of kids (especially the little ones) to wash their hands, hand sanitizer is just much more efficient. I hate it though and I know it really isn't good for the kids.

In my grade school we had those giant trough type sinks operated with a foot pedal so 6 or so kids could wash hands at the same time. I'm not sure if schools still have those, but our lunch time was long enough to allow kids time to wash hands.

[Rachel]

Twelve years ago we were in a tough situation with an immune-compromised family member who required home health. It wasn't as well-known then, but a case of MRSA was probably involved.

 

And the nurse back then told us then to throw away all the antibacterial soap in the house and just use a something basic with a neutral scent and no lotion. She also taught me how to properly wash my hands and had us put a commercial paper towel dispenser in the main bathroom. This was important because I was preparing and hanging bags of antibiotics and changing dressings.

 

So IMHO this was a long time coming. Certain health care professionals have had doubts about this for a long time.

I took a graduate level community health class about 10 years ago. MRSA was definitely known back then although I doubt as much was known back then as now.

[LucyStoner]

Antibacterials/antimicrobials function differently than antiseptics like alcohol. Also, certain settings make the risk make more sense, like a hospital or homebirth. Or, in our area, where when we use hand sanitizer we have encountered things like giardia or whatever lovelies are swimming in moose or weasel feces, as opposed to the run of the mill household bacteria and viruses that people with healthy immune systems are not particularly susceptible to.

 

I think hand sanitizer gets way overused when just sending a school kid to actually wash their hands works as well or better. But certain settings make other products sensible in a way household antibacterial soap pretty much never is. If sterility is required there are products, from rubbing alcohol to hospital grade sanitizing creams, that can be purchased. But the OTC soaps arguably cause more harm than good and I'm not surprised this investigation bore that out for a few of the most common ingredients.

Both antiseptics (like alcohol and peroxide) and antibiotics are antimicrobials. They each can kill microbes. Antiseptics are used externally on flesh or in mouthwashes. Using antibiotics in place of antiseptics externally and using antibiotic medications when not strictly required is the issue is creating antibiotic resistant bacteria. Antiseptics are quite robust and will kill all sorts of microbes, not just bacteria.

Edited September 5, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

Soap kills germs too, but no one is advocating we stop washing hands. Alcohol doesn't have any side effects other than drying skin, and it kills in a different manner so less of a chance of resistant bacteria.

 

What is the manner, is what I am asking, so that I can explain it cogently to someone else.

 

And I think shoap actually just suspends germs, so that they get washed away. Not kills them, fwiw.

Edited September 5, 2016 by OKBud

[Guest]

This is my understanding, but I hope someone else will jump in if this is in error or incomplete.

 

Soap doesn't so much kill germs, as render them unable to stick to your skin. So when you rinse the soapy water down the drain, the bacteria is going with it.

 

Alcohol kills bacteria by basically chemically tearing up the cell membrane, causing the cell to burst. It does this pretty indiscriminately with most all cells, because it's a basic chemistry thing. It does it with your cells too, which is why it burns like heck if you put it on an open wound (without those many, many laters of keratin-containing and thus "shielding" skin cells there to protect the more vulnerable cells beneath.)

 

But antibiotics are much more targeted: they bond with specific receptors on the cell membrane, then enter the cell and disrupt some aspect of its ability to function and/or reproduce. This is why antibiotics are so useful: you can find ones that will do this to bacteria cells but NOT to human cells. But it's also why they have to be used sparingly. Bacteria cells that happen to not have those receptors, for example, can survive and even flourish (because you've just killed off their competition), thus creating a whole population of bacteria that are immune to that antibiotic.

 

Something like that? :)

 

ETA: I didn't see that your post had already been answered (twice!) when I posted mine. Also, those answers are pretty different from where I was going with my long rambling explanation, so I'm guessing I misunderstood what you were asking. Sorry for the sidetrack, and now back to regularly scheduled programming....

Nope that's precisely what I'm asking! Thanks, man!

[Guest]

Both antiseptics (like alcohol and peroxide) and antibiotics are antimicrobials. They each can kill microbes. Antiseptics are used externally on flesh or in mouthwashes. Using antibiotics in place of antiseptics externally and using antibiotic medications when not strictly required is the issue is creating antibiotic resistant bacteria. Antiseptics are quite robust and will kill all sorts of microbes, not just bacteria.

::: Light bulb::: ahhhh!

[happymom4]

I'm glad, I worried about the super germs it would lead to.  My sister and mom will panic, they only by antibacterial and my sister cleans everything in Clorox.  I'm sure she'll try to buy it on the black market  :coolgleamA: .

[Tammi K]

Another believe in plain soap and water.   I think the ban should have happened years ago.

[happypamama]

Okay, side question: in what way do you gals use hibiclens for your homebirths? We are planning our fifth homebirth, and it's not on the MW's suggested list of stuff. I know we had to have something like that for our first homebirth (betadine, maybe?) because those midwives required it, but they didn't end up using it (which annoyed me because we had to buy it ourselves, rather than bill insurance, and it was pricey). Maybe if I'd needed stitches? At any rate, the midwives have mostly used gloves when touching baby or me, although DH and I don't (we just wash with regular soap and water).

[heartlikealion]

Not surprised. I have never been a fan of antibacterial soaps. I do wonder what my germophobe friends will think about this.

 

Well, I don't know you but lol I'm a germophobe and I'm fine with it. I admittedly buy misc. products and some do say antibacterial. But I know that they're not great for us.

 

We keep some type of spray or liquid in the car to use after pumping gas. I sometimes use a "wet one" wipe or one of the other products in my car before eating. I know, this is not always logical. I might end up eating residue from the products. I have gone without as well. I feel like I can't win because I'm not going to pull over the car and unload the kids to go inside a building to use the sink before we eat our drive-thru order. And I'm not going to wait til we get home to eat because we are already an hour from the house and starving. Plus, in order to do all that I'd probably end up touching something else in the building lol. Sometimes I will try to order food that doesn't involve hand touching, though (i.e. a wrap).

[Bluegoat]

We use sanitizer in our classroom too for those very reasons. It's alcohol based though. We only squirt a tiny drop and make sure it's out of the kids' reach at other times. In order for washing hands with soap and water to be feasible we would either need more time for lunch, a lot more sinks, or both.

 

I find it really odd that the lunch time for school kids is too short for hand washing.  There is something very wrong with that.  Or with the number of sinks required per student.

[heartlikealion]

I find it really odd that the lunch time for school kids is too short for hand washing.  There is something very wrong with that.  Or with the number of sinks required per student.

 

I believe it. I asked ds how long his lunch is and he said it's 20 minutes (I don't know if he's exaggerating but I was a bit surprised. He takes forever to eat his food at home sometimes lol). They do make a trip to the bathroom at some point as a class I think, but I don't know if it's before/after lunch.

 

When I worked in a daycare I asked about having the kids wash up before snack/meal. They said they didn't do it because the kids would just touch stuff after they came out of the bathroom, anyway. I was always a bit appalled.

 

[Bluegoat]

I believe it. I asked ds how long his lunch is and he said it's 20 minutes (I don't know if he's exaggerating but I was a bit surprised. He takes forever to eat his food at home sometimes lol). They do make a trip to the bathroom at some point as a class I think, but I don't know if it's before/after lunch.

 

When I worked in a daycare I asked about having the kids wash up before snack/meal. They said they didn't do it because the kids would just touch stuff after they came out of the bathroom, anyway. I was always a bit appalled.

 

 

Ugh.  We had a short lunch time like that when I was in middle school.  They wanted us to scarf our bag lunch as quickly as possible and get out of the school.  I reall think that is an unhealthy way to eat.

 

The thing about the kids hands might be true to some extent, but at least it is a good habit.  And little ones touch some pretty gross things over the course of the day.

[Ravin]

So to sum up: I should toss and will no longer be able to buy the non-alcohol based hand sanitizer I use when camping or otherwise don't have soap and water available, which I use because the alcohol-based stuff hurts my eczema-prone hands, because it works no better than regular soap and water?

 

:glare:

[redsquirrel]

FWIW, I did find ONE good use for antibacterial soap and I'm going to miss it for that one thing.

 

Stinky dancer feet.

 

OMG, my boys can have feet that stink to high heaven!  The one and only thing we have found to stop the gag inducing funk is to occasionally wash feet, and only feet, with antibacterial soap. One wash with that stuff and the stank is gone. Nothing else has every worked.

 

I'm going to go buy a few bottles of dial liquid soap while I still can. It takes us a while to go through a bottle, because it's only on feet and only occasionally, but man, when we need it, we really need it.

 

 

And FWIW, santitizer is very useful and effective. It can even be more effective than soap and water because are more likely to use it more often, more thoroughly and for a longer time.  In other words, they use more sanitizer and rub it into every nook and cranny of their hands.  

 

I am adamant about gooping up things like shopping cart handles with sanitizer and I have noticed a reduction in the number of colds and bugs I get. It could be because I am getting older and the number goes down naturally, but I'm not taking any chances.

 

[Happy2BaMom]

Yeah my first thought was why did this take so long? 

 

Follow the money. It took this long because various corporations/companies made a lot of money off of convincing people they needed antibacterial soaps and sold them those soaps. Even yesterday, there were still press releases flowing out from whatever-organization-that-represents-soap-companies, claiming that there was no harm in antibacterial soaps, the consumers wanted them, blah blah blah. 

 

I'm very glad that they enacted the ban, but....as someone who has followed this issue pretty closely for several years, IMHO, it's too little, too late. 

[Bluegoat]

Follow the money. It took this long because various corporations/companies made a lot of money off of convincing people they needed antibacterial soaps and sold them those soaps. Even yesterday, there were still press releases flowing out from whatever-organization-that-represents-soap-companies, claiming that there was no harm in antibacterial soaps, the consumers wanted them, blah blah blah. 

 

I'm very glad that they enacted the ban, but....as someone who has followed this issue pretty closely for several years, IMHO, it's too little, too late. 

 

It seems like every few weeks I have something on my FB feed about how I should try Lysol because it kills all the bacteria on my counters.

 

If people are scared you can sell them stuff.